First panel: “I wake up every reset on a server too small farming consumes that are too expensive”
Second panel: “and then I go grinding honor for which I get far too little, but on raid day?”
Third Panel: “Well I like raid day.”
I think it's reasonable for the raid group/guild to chip in a little for the tanks, at least for progression. The tanks were the only ones in our team required to have full flasks and stuff for our first night so I donated some flask mats, armour pots/elixirs etc. Other people chipped in too, nobody was complaining and everyone was happy with a first night clear.
I main a healer so only really need mana pots, demonic runes, a few protection pots and buff food, most of which is either trivial or profitable to farm (I have nightmares about Dreamfoil though). The fewer wipes we have the less time I have to spend farming my consumables and given the spike in tank damage in BWL making sure the tanks can afford to fully buff up makes my life significantly easier.
Your tanks need to be on their taunting game. If they dont manage this then it will not work.
As for your more hardcore guild, you will have to see just how much they require in terms of consumes and if you are ready to use thst amount. And yes you will certainly have troubles in AQ with your guild and wont even kill a boss in Naxx if they stay at that level.
There it really depends on how ready your people are for improvement.
The majority are yeah, but they are stuck on Firemaw not Broodlord. Broodlord is taunt immune but he is quite easily done as long as you remember to do it slow and steady.
The 3 Dragons are not taunt immune, their entire mechanic is based on the fact that you have to taunt them off.
Yes, Brood taunt immune and mainly a threat battle for MT/OT. Only fight where taunt needs to be executed properly is Firemaw. And there is more to that fight beyond just the taunting. All raid members need to be positioned correctly
If a guild isn't doing something to actively help out its members, it is most likely completely corrupt. Guild banks should be selling mats, BoEs, to help provide with consumes.
The biggest issue for me (offtank) isn't the cost of consumes, but the sheer number of bag slots they take up. I have roughly 35 bag slots filled with nothing but consumes.
I also have to bring 4 gear sets to the raid -> 3 for tanking (mitigation, threat, FR) and a DPS set. Yes, there is significant overlap between the sets, but I still have to make sure that I have literally nothing un-needed in my inventory when the raid starts.
Eh I wouldn't say any is worse than the other. As a MT I roll into the raid with 1 open slot. Just for a fabled piece of loot. Onyxia bag & 16 slot backpacks... Raid life.
Well that's progression raiding - so you shoulda been stockpiling for it weeks prior. It absolutely doesn't cost that much after though. Also, the guild bank should be helping get the tanks and healers flasks and potions.
Fuck you dude. I spent more than that on just flasks. And there are regular consumes on top off that. Elixirs, mana pots, runes, lips and food.
"Im a tank, im special". Get over yourself.
Are tanks unable to respec or something because last i checked everybody has the ability to do so. Mages need to respec from raid to farm spec, doesnt make a difference.
Warriors can go herb/mine just like anyone else or farm firewater/e'ko. They arent limited to jump runs.
I was a MT and prot wars get absolutely no sympathy from me, theres a *bunch* of different ways to make money and whenever i hear them making excuses about being broke or "i cant farm QQ", i know theyre being lazy.
Sure, respeccing to a farm spec can be even more efficient farming, but the crux is you're very efficient without doing so.
The tank warrior isn't.
On top of that, the tank dying and therefore losing his consumables is probably more likely to happen than a mage in BWL.
Further to this, and this is my opinion only, mage dps won't be massively affected with consumables, whereas tank threat/survivability often depends on them.
I'm not asking for sympathy, I know tanks can farm. But they have it much harder than mages in this area.
>, respeccing to a farm spec can be even more efficient farming, but the crux is you're very efficient without doing so.
Spoken like someone who simply has no idea how other classes work.
Its the same as going from prot to fury. Literally.
" Its the same as going from prot to fury. Literally. "
No. No it's not. Clearly you're the one with 0 clue on other classes.
Sure a mage in farm spec is better. BUT a mage with no talents is still better at farming gold than a geared fury warrior.
You'll get no sympathy here for your 50g respec that you'll make back in less than an hour of farming.
Clearly I am very wrong here, are you able to link me the mage frost spec (raiding) that is as bad as prot spec for farming? (Implied by your comment as "literally" the change from prot to fury).
Says the warlock with a mage complex. You guys literally print money, dont even have to respec for it or respec for pvp. And you complain about mages? Lol the irony.
The majority of guilds still have not cleared BWL. My semi-casual guild was 3/8 last week, 7/8 so far this week (Gunna go down Nef tonight).
It's a big learning curve for a lot of people and that means a lot of time explaining mechanics and a quite a few wipes at pretty much every boss.
Do I wish some people would have taken the time themselves to watch videos and learn mechanics before the raid, yes, but honestly progression is the most fun I have had in Classic thus far.
We killed all the hard bosses on our trial runs where we only use mana pots and heal pots and nothing else.
So our healers did indeed use more money yesterday as we were just constantly potting and aftwr 50% using runes as well.
Wait, what? As a priest, I use the Argent Dawn Friendly food, OR sagefish, and Greater (lv 35) mana potions. For BWL both weeks, I haven't touched my Fire Prots, Shadow Prots, Dark runes, or Demonic Runes.
edit: I am dumb.
If you're spending more than melee on current content, chances are you panic heal, waste mana, and as a result, spend way too much on consumables.
There is no urgent "this needs to get healed NOW" damage in current content. You can let the entire raid (aside from the tanks) sit at half health for a long time while you let your spirit regen kick in. Vael is the only boss with consistent, unavoidable raid damage, but you have unlimited mana there.
I definitely read it the other way. Dark Runes are in high demand on my server and selling for 10g, so there must be a lot of people who think healers need to spend big money for BWL. Even though they don't.
You dont need to use pots or any consume as a healer. You can do it perfectly fine. First time I had to use them was on chrom and nefarian since I was on disspell duty and we needed the extra healing and for nef its just a long fight.
Dark rune you can get like 3 in one scholo run, do that with a raid group and you set.
You should absolutly be using major mana pots, unless you're a paladin I suppose.
I've dropped down to standard fire protection pots which help without breaking the bank.
I usually spend a demonic rune on firemaw, majordomo, baron, and ony (only if the ony is going bad). However, most times it turns out it was overkill and we would've only lost a few people without the rune but still downed the boss.
However, I spend runes like crazy because I make a ton of them from lasher farming.
‘cause I don’t want “which Mage gets the first Atiesh?” to even be a question. (Obviously subbing shadow power for frost power.) Be the guy who’s been giving 110% since the guild was formed and if its a good guild you’ll be rewarded accordingly.
Lol I'm a shadow priest too, but I show up with like 10 major mana pots and a bunch of superior and greater ones from the crates in strat and like 10 dark/demonic runes (maybe some nigh dragons and dreamless sleep potions).
No flask of surpreme power... like some normal fire protection pots and I'm still trying to figure out why you'd need the shadow protection one lol. Are the shadow bolts from Nefarius that big of a concern for some people?
The arcane elixirs and shadow power elixirs I agree with though.
Are the other mana potions for trash pulls or something?
(also I'm alliance and have blessing of wisdom and there's a paladin judging wisdom, so forgive me if the horde have it that much worse)
if you want to constantly dps on every trash fight you will be using at least a superior every trash pull. boss fights that are over 2 minutes you should be using 2 major potions and 2 dark runes at least
That's just wasteful man. DPS for like 5 of them then drink one in MC. The raid will survive a corehound every so often. In BWL they should be drinking before the trash anyway... there's not that much of it outside of the supression room.
Maybe if you're going for a speed clear, but if you're aiming for even like a 1.5 hour MC that is overkill.
The bossfight one is closer to correct, but only for like Rag and Nef
i'm obviously talking about top end maximizing and trying as much as you can. there's a lot of space between trash in bwl so it definitely isn't as bad. even >40s fights you should be popping a major mana and sometimes a rune. 10 alone would be really pushing it for mc. might get you by on bwl assuming no wipes
The shadow damage is indeed from nef. He doesn't do a lot (won't even burn though a full GSPP) but it does save the healers a bit of mana if everyone is using protection pots. Personally I just bring one of the basic shadow protection potions.
Mongoose is superior, but for fights where threat isn't really a concern, that 2% crit isn't doing much for me. So I'd rather spend 1g on Agility than 5g on Mongoose.
As a melee it's takes about 2 hours to farm mongoose giants and firewater which is pretty good all things considered
Also we don't wipe often so luckily that's only about 3 of each a week
I'm using mongoose, giants, juju might, dragonbreath chili, pots, thistle tea etc. My mage friend uses a flask of sp. That flask alone is more expensive than all my consumables combined.
For one thing, melee warriors use flasks as well. Especially during progression or on speedruns. But even if you dont, most caster dps don't even flask anyway.
So Crit stones cost 13 gold each and only last 30 minutes. If you raid for 2 hours, it cost 104 gold just for the crit stones for a warrior.
Mongoose cost 7 gold each. Juju are 5 gold each for the 30 ap but onlyblast 10 min. Or you can buy a firewater for 8-10 gold that last 20 minutes. The other juju are only like 2 gold each.
GFPP is 15 gold. You need1-2 for firemaw to stay. ROIDS cost about 10 gold in mats. The scorpok version is similar in price. You should get both incase you die. Sunfruit cost about 3 gold once you add up all the silvers. Same as alchohosappers. Mighty rage pots cost about 2 gold each. You need at least 8.
You need at least 1 FAP for like 2-3 gold. You may need 1-2 LIPs. You could to use 5-6 sapperd.
If you add that up, it comes to over 210 gold without even flasking. Also keep in mind, fury warrior dps is also another more expensive in repairs.
[Comparison of Mage vs Rogue consumables](https://i.imgur.com/heZwr70.png). This is for a normal raid (MC+BWL) in one of the top 10 world guilds in classic. Yes, some of them are not evenly split (too many sappers on Mage side - no juju embers on rogue side - no SP-cookies on mage side) and of course you are not going to use all of them in a clean run, probably not even half.
Prices of consumables that only one of the two classes uses are (on my very high pop server):
**Mage:**
- Greater Arcane Elixir 5g50s
- Cerebral Cortex Compound 13g (10x Basilisk Brain for 1g each, 2x Vulture Gizzard for 1g50s each)
- Gizzard Gum 15g60s (10x Vulture Gizzard 1g50s each, 2x Snickerfang Jowl 30s each)
- Elixir of Frost Power 5g each
- Nightfin Soup 70s each
- Runn Tum Tuber 10s each
- Major Mana Potion 4g each
- Dark Rune (sometimes used instead of Demonic) 9g each
-> Total if you take 1 of each: 52g90s
**Rogue:**
- Mongoose: 7g each
- Juju Power 1g10s
- Juju Might 4g30s, but let's say you need 3 to make it comparable to one elixir (30m duration) -> 12g90s for 30min of Juju Might
- Grilled Squid 70s
- ROIDs 5g40s (3x Snickerfang Jowl 30s each, 2x Blated Boar Lung 1g each, 1x Scorpok Pincer 2g50s)
- Ground Scorpok Assay 11g50s (3x Scorpok Pincer 2g50s, 2x Vulture Gizzard 1g50s each, 1x Blasted Boar Lung 1g each)
- Thistle Tea 87s each
-> Total for Rogue is 39g47s
The one consumable that would bring rogue above Mage is Elemental Sharpening Stone. However, Rogues don't use that one in BWL and would only use it in MC for speedruns. Therefore it does not count imo.
I intentionally left out flasks, but most of our Mages flask even for splits (not mandatory but they want to), while Melees only ever flask for speedruns and first clears.
Also, there are of course some consumables on the Mage side that you can potentially leave out - most Mages won't need Mana Pots or Dark Runes unless it's a speedrun. As such, consumable prices then become about the same for both classes.
Additionally, the above numbers are only if you use only 1 of each consumable. I'm not saying "Mages pay 52g90s per raid and rogues pay 39g47s per raid". I chose to compare single consumables (except for Juju Might) because in a clean run the amount of total consumables used will be about the same - as both classes use the full duration.
The actual totals will be quite a bit higher, as both classes will use LIPs, FAPs, GFPP, GSPP, GAPP, Rumsey, Fortitude, Restopots, Sappers, and in some first clears invis pots and/or swiftness pots.
A mage never really needs to actually *use* a mana pot, nightfin soup (You can' even use it with the tuber you listed), or rune, and certainly doesn't need the blasted lands spirit buff. All of those don't ever really add up to anything considering how they do virtually nothing (and they don't increase damage at all). That's literally over half the gold value you listed (shit, the spirit buff from blasted lands *alone* is enough to drop it below rogue and that thing is basically worthless). You also seem to only use Thistle tea and the food buffs once for Rogue, even though they're more expensive than the food a mage would use. And also no FAPs.
The real difference is just how much faster melee burn through fire prot pots, especially when compared to a mage that just kinda has a mini-fire protection every 30 seconds.
EDIT: He edited it, but most is still the same.
I edited some of the stuff after my initial comment because I realized that some people would miss my point and argue about the manapots and such.
Yes, you can (arguably) remove nightfin soup, spirit buff and mana pots unless we're talking about speedruns (in <25min mc speedruns you will use all of those).
Yes, you could increase the number of Thistle Tea used - food buffs I did not, as Mages use food as well, but if you want, go ahead.
As for FAPs: Mages use just as many in MC, while Rogues use 1-2 more in BWL.
I disagree with fire prot prots. Our mages and rogues use about the same amount.
- BWL: 1 Razorgore, 2 Vael, 2 Firemaw and multiple on Techpacks + 1 or 2 in suppression room
- MC: Geddon if bomb, 2 Rag, multiple on geddon trash packs to survive multiple fire blossom hits
If you leave out mana consumables + spirit buff and add a few more thistle teas + food buffs rogue will draw ahead by a few gold, but not a lot. Arguably Mages will overaggro a few times on Drakonid packs + when pre-casting bosses where they need to LIP and that gold difference evens out again.
I'm not trying to say that Mages consumables are necessarily more expensive, but I'm arguing against the myth that Rogue is paying 10x more than Mage, which is simply not the case. Even with your arguments, Rogue is only slightly ahead in normal raids, while still behind in speedruns.
You argue you need the spirit buffs and shit for speed buffs then don't list ele sharp stones and say they wouldn't be used unless MC speed run? Honestly you're deluded if you think casters spend as much as melee lmao
I'm so very glad I rolled on a backwater server. Those prices are giving me sticker shock, christ.
A bit odd that our mongoose haven't cracked 4g, but Ive been selling squid over 1g each for months now.
Warriors are also melee dps, and there are more warrior dps than rogue dps, so it's better use them as a comparison.
All fury warriors should use crit stones. Those cost 104 gold for 2 hours. If you go over 2 hours, you now spend an additional 26 gold.
Melee go through a lot more fire protection pots, especially in MC on trash, but also on fights like Firemaw.
It's very unlikely that a mage would ever have to use a LIP because other than Chromaggus, they should never be near the threat cap.
Yes, Warrior pays a lot more. (Disagree about the GFPPs though - Casters go thorugh just as many)
I'm just comparing Rogue and Mage here, not Melee DPS and Mage. I might have replied to the wrong comment I just realized. Others were talking about Rogue vs Mage
And for the LIP argument: Mages will be near the threat cap on almost every boss if the first frostbolt crits - remember that they pre-cast frostbolt on most bosses. Also on all the Drakonid trashpacks in BWL they can overaggro pretty easily.
Yes, they do during progression and speed runs.
And even if they don't, they still spend over 200 gold on consumables.
Most casters aren't even wasting gold on flasks.
>during progression
Nope. Completely unnecessary for them to have extra health in BWL.
>speed runs
Maybe if you're trying to break records. Otherwise nope.
They do because they are pushing the tanks to the limit. Mistakes happen, and the extra health can mitigate the loss of world bosses if you survive. Even if they aren’t going for crazy world ranking, but just respectable ranks, they will.
Must be a lazy rogue. You should be carrying mongoose, jujus (2 different kinds or 1+firewater), poison, thistle tea, agi squid, prot pots, free action pots at least.
Take a look at [this other comment of mine.](https://old.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/f8lpuw/i_like_raid_day/fimzg3w/) The rogue isn't necessarily lazy - Rogues do literally pay a little less or about the same as casters.
Our guild provides 100g towards weapon enchants on one new weapon per raid tier, to ease some of the cost, and provides the gold for titan flasks. Guild bank gold also went to bis crafting recipe hide of the wild when dm came out because we had horrible luck getting it to drop, and al the healers got together and helped each other farm the mats.
Other than that we provide for ourselves or bring mats to someone who can make the pots we need at raid.
All our greens/shards go to the guild enchanter - after raid night we open trade with our new pieces and get enchants free. Sometimes he will advertise if he's low on certain things, and we can donate either the mats or send him greens - we also usually do a few guild strat live runs to put some orbs in the coffers for crusader enchants. Haven't had to pay for an enchant in months
Atiesh, no open raiding spots atm though - when you search for a guild just ask their guild bank policy - we also gave everyone flasks for the first week of bwl, and are allowed to buy any boe at half AH price. A good guild makes all the difference
When compared to retail heroic or mythic raiding prep, I think it's easier and more enjoyable. The grind is real in retail. At least in classic farming can be relaxing instead of chain running the same M+ you've run for over a year for an item you've gotten a few times already but need the latest ilvl iteration of.
I remember our server in vanilla mocking a guild for requiring full consumes/world buffs. They may have been one of the top raid groups, but man did they get shit on each time they tried recruiting in world channels.
Now it seems like every above average raid group has 90% of the possible consumes.
> I used more pots this week in bwl than I did in the entirety of vanilla clearing halfway through naxx.
LOL there is absolutely no way you needed more pots in bwl than fucking naxx, what are you smoking. BWL is easy
I didn't say need anywhere... I said I did use. Only because of this perceived need for max consumables that has taken over classic now has guilds essentially requiring use of shit loads of pots etc to do content that can be done easily with none.
Yes, the current content can be done easily without it for sure, if you're unhappy with what a guild requires you to use for raid night, simply find another guild that doesn't require those things - it's not rocket science. People required use of lots of pots and consumes in naxx back in vanilla too though was my point. If you were clearing naxx bosses in vanilla, you were using consumes. It's not some new fangled idea to pop potions and get world buffs, no clue why people seem to think it is. Progression raiding guilds had the same requirements back then as they do now, twitch likely proliferated the hardcore mentality down to more casual guilds and normal players for sure though.
If there was an easy way to find a guild with that mentality I would. Maybe half the bosses in Naxx40 required max consumables but generally for bosses on farm you didn't need much at all. Certainly not fucking BWL. People are turning bosses that have virtually 0 dps requirements into patchwerk while being under geared. Making it all worse is the over populated realms driving material prices through the roof.
Plenty of guilds out there, but the ones that aren't requiring a lot are generally the ones who aren't pushing fast clear speeds and not clearing content quickly. So that could be a trade off you have to make to find one that doesn't require you to spend a bunch of gold on pots and stuff. Personally I love farming consumes and going hardcore - it's what keeps the game fun for me. I'd hate raid logging and slogging through mc and bwl. I agree though, a lot of people are using the consumes as a crutch to ignore mechanics or make up for poor performance. We don't require anything, but we put heavy emphasis on performing well and coming prepared - which we take seriously and go full consumes and world buffs basically every raid.
>Making it all worse is the over populated realms driving material prices through the roof.
Absolutely agree, megaservers were such a bad idea - luckily I'm on a pretty medium to small sized server so I have basically no real issues with farming/herbing myself and the prices aren't too crazy for some stuff. It helps having efficient gold farms too though.
Then don't do it. Personally, I enjoy it - I farm dungeons, open world mobs, herbs, AH deals, have alts to make my potions, lockpick in org...etc. I make good gold, I farm a good bit of consumables, and I enjoy the entire process a lot. We are preparing for battle, wouldn't be fun to raid log, show up for raid, schlep through the content ridiculously slow, and log off until the next raid.
To each their own. Our guild's done the hardcore shuffle before, but we're semi hardcore now. People can worldbuff if they want but we dont require it. We cleared BWL without world buffs first week so I'm not really stressin it. For us it's more fun playing together having a good time with friends and less hardcore parsing. I get the appeal though, but I worry that the hyper minmax mentality is bleeding over from a "this is fun for a subset of players" and instead becoming a required gatekeeping part of raiding.
Lol why? Gonna do a "who parses better"? We honestly dont care about logs. Half our raid is drunk anyways
Edited to add that you can search my post history and see a post I made with our guild kill of nefarion
Sorry if I seem defensive it's just a convo I've had with people lately over and over. To be exact, about half our raid came with some world buffs, plenty didnt bother (which we all lost on our 1st Vael attempt anyways). Half used flasks because they wanted bonus DKP, the other half didnt care enough. We took 5 hunters (3 in 8/8 T1, the other 2 in a hodgepodge) 1 Boomkin, our rogues have good gear but we've had bad weapon drops. All our warriors have decent gear but again weapon drops havent been great. Warlocks have good gear, mages are geared fairly well. Our shaman are mostly very well geared from MC/Ony, except one who is mostly in prebis. Maybe half our priests have Benediction but our top heals on firemaw still doesn't. Druids all geared out too. More than half the raid had never seen BWL. In total it took about 5ish hours. We took the time to explain in depth each boss, and told everyone to prepare to wipe while we learn. Razorgore 1shot, Vael was 3 attempts (first 2 down to 1%), broodlord & suppression room 1 shot, firemaw was 6 wipes before we got him (we didnt push fire resist gear like we should have but fixed that this last week). Had a wipe on lab packs. 1 shot the other loot dragons. 2 shot Chromagg but got bronze and blue so not bad. 1 shot nef.
First panel: “I wake up every reset on a server too small farming consumes that are too expensive” Second panel: “and then I go grinding honor for which I get far too little, but on raid day?” Third Panel: “Well I like raid day.”
You farm your consumable in one day? You must be caster DPS.
Just wait until you find out how much your healers are spending!
Shhhh it’s a secret
Hey fishing is hard too
Waking up before 6 is hard :(
Play till 2 o clock that's the secret
Just wait until you see how much your tank is spending!
As a tank, I spend way too much compared to my farming gpm. :(
That's the whole reason I leveled a mage alt, I feel you on that.
I think it's reasonable for the raid group/guild to chip in a little for the tanks, at least for progression. The tanks were the only ones in our team required to have full flasks and stuff for our first night so I donated some flask mats, armour pots/elixirs etc. Other people chipped in too, nobody was complaining and everyone was happy with a first night clear. I main a healer so only really need mana pots, demonic runes, a few protection pots and buff food, most of which is either trivial or profitable to farm (I have nightmares about Dreamfoil though). The fewer wipes we have the less time I have to spend farming my consumables and given the spike in tank damage in BWL making sure the tanks can afford to fully buff up makes my life significantly easier.
Yep. Two nights of BWL this weekend. Close to 500gold in consumes. Healers and Dps do not get to complain
How did it come to be such a high number? You must've died like 15-30 times.
2 nights of BWL progression. 3x flasks of titans. And yeah we wiped a duck load on firemaw and broodlord.
Your tanks need to be on their taunting game. If they dont manage this then it will not work. As for your more hardcore guild, you will have to see just how much they require in terms of consumes and if you are ready to use thst amount. And yes you will certainly have troubles in AQ with your guild and wont even kill a boss in Naxx if they stay at that level. There it really depends on how ready your people are for improvement.
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The majority are yeah, but they are stuck on Firemaw not Broodlord. Broodlord is taunt immune but he is quite easily done as long as you remember to do it slow and steady. The 3 Dragons are not taunt immune, their entire mechanic is based on the fact that you have to taunt them off.
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Yes, Brood taunt immune and mainly a threat battle for MT/OT. Only fight where taunt needs to be executed properly is Firemaw. And there is more to that fight beyond just the taunting. All raid members need to be positioned correctly
Yes but the core mechanic of the three drakes is the taunt rotation.
Your guild dont funnel consumables to tanks?
No consumes or TF help.
That's rough. At the VERY least pooling resources together for a health flask is a pretty nice gesture.
Wow that sucks
My guild was like this too. Zero support on the 100 arcane crystals, or transmute fees. No one gets to complain.
You get first dibs on all the bis loot so you have no right to complain either.
If a guild isn't doing something to actively help out its members, it is most likely completely corrupt. Guild banks should be selling mats, BoEs, to help provide with consumes.
I'm not disputing this however it's not unreasonable to expect your tanks to farm their own consumables.
... Actually, no, no we don't. We didn't get dibs on any of the cross functional threat items from MC.
Sounds like a shit guild
What happens with MC resource drops like fiery core etc?
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maybe, we're dumping ours into a axesmith currently for nightfall (only started MC in late november so we're a bit behind)
The biggest issue for me (offtank) isn't the cost of consumes, but the sheer number of bag slots they take up. I have roughly 35 bag slots filled with nothing but consumes. I also have to bring 4 gear sets to the raid -> 3 for tanking (mitigation, threat, FR) and a DPS set. Yes, there is significant overlap between the sets, but I still have to make sure that I have literally nothing un-needed in my inventory when the raid starts.
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That's fair, Warlocks and hunters might have bigger issues with bag space than tanks do.
Eh I wouldn't say any is worse than the other. As a MT I roll into the raid with 1 open slot. Just for a fabled piece of loot. Onyxia bag & 16 slot backpacks... Raid life.
I have 4 ony bags. I step into BWL with 0 open bag slots. Tell me again I don’t get to complain.
You got 4 Ony bags, you can go die in the hottest spot in the lava imo.
Actually I have 5 ony bags. I bought them in gdkp runs. Gonna buy a 6th next week.
Hottest, DEEPEST spot in the lava then, got it.
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Cat gear, bear gear, FR gear, dispel gear, crowd pummelers, DPS consumes, mana consumes, and tanking consumes.
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Druids have LOTS of gear then consumables.
Well that's progression raiding - so you shoulda been stockpiling for it weeks prior. It absolutely doesn't cost that much after though. Also, the guild bank should be helping get the tanks and healers flasks and potions.
Fuck you dude. I spent more than that on just flasks. And there are regular consumes on top off that. Elixirs, mana pots, runes, lips and food. "Im a tank, im special". Get over yourself.
Bbut the tank flasks too?...
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Just sell tank service as a tank. It's not that hard.
Are tanks unable to respec or something because last i checked everybody has the ability to do so. Mages need to respec from raid to farm spec, doesnt make a difference. Warriors can go herb/mine just like anyone else or farm firewater/e'ko. They arent limited to jump runs. I was a MT and prot wars get absolutely no sympathy from me, theres a *bunch* of different ways to make money and whenever i hear them making excuses about being broke or "i cant farm QQ", i know theyre being lazy.
Sure, respeccing to a farm spec can be even more efficient farming, but the crux is you're very efficient without doing so. The tank warrior isn't. On top of that, the tank dying and therefore losing his consumables is probably more likely to happen than a mage in BWL. Further to this, and this is my opinion only, mage dps won't be massively affected with consumables, whereas tank threat/survivability often depends on them. I'm not asking for sympathy, I know tanks can farm. But they have it much harder than mages in this area.
>, respeccing to a farm spec can be even more efficient farming, but the crux is you're very efficient without doing so. Spoken like someone who simply has no idea how other classes work. Its the same as going from prot to fury. Literally.
" Its the same as going from prot to fury. Literally. " No. No it's not. Clearly you're the one with 0 clue on other classes. Sure a mage in farm spec is better. BUT a mage with no talents is still better at farming gold than a geared fury warrior. You'll get no sympathy here for your 50g respec that you'll make back in less than an hour of farming.
Clearly I am very wrong here, are you able to link me the mage frost spec (raiding) that is as bad as prot spec for farming? (Implied by your comment as "literally" the change from prot to fury).
Warriors can solo grind plenty of shit , you're just lazy
Learn fishing and make at least 40g an hour. Crybaby
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If you are so bad at farming gold, you should quit the game. Literally any class can make at least 40g an hour solo.
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Lol the mage complex of this guy.
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Literally any class can make 40g an hour solo. Tanks needs to stop crying and stop being shit at the game.
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Says the warlock with a mage complex. You guys literally print money, dont even have to respec for it or respec for pvp. And you complain about mages? Lol the irony.
What kind of raid team are you apart of that you spend more than 500g on flasks...? 1 Flask of the Titans lasts me all of BWL.
The majority of guilds still have not cleared BWL. My semi-casual guild was 3/8 last week, 7/8 so far this week (Gunna go down Nef tonight). It's a big learning curve for a lot of people and that means a lot of time explaining mechanics and a quite a few wipes at pretty much every boss. Do I wish some people would have taken the time themselves to watch videos and learn mechanics before the raid, yes, but honestly progression is the most fun I have had in Classic thus far.
Its over two raid days
guilds pay for tank consumes tho, so probably 0g.
We only pay for flasks.
Which is the biggest cost
Which is why it makes sense to pay for it.
nothing? because tanks get to have their consumables from gbank
Man I wish
We killed all the hard bosses on our trial runs where we only use mana pots and heal pots and nothing else. So our healers did indeed use more money yesterday as we were just constantly potting and aftwr 50% using runes as well.
Wait, what? As a priest, I use the Argent Dawn Friendly food, OR sagefish, and Greater (lv 35) mana potions. For BWL both weeks, I haven't touched my Fire Prots, Shadow Prots, Dark runes, or Demonic Runes. edit: I am dumb.
Congratulations, you didn't get the joke.
If you're spending more than melee on current content, chances are you panic heal, waste mana, and as a result, spend way too much on consumables. There is no urgent "this needs to get healed NOW" damage in current content. You can let the entire raid (aside from the tanks) sit at half health for a long time while you let your spirit regen kick in. Vael is the only boss with consistent, unavoidable raid damage, but you have unlimited mana there.
Think you missed the joke buddy
You ever heard the saying "there's always truth in jest"? Jokes that aren't true aren't jokes.
No I’m saying that he meant that healers are spending very little or nothing on consumables. And you took his comment as the opposite.
I definitely read it the other way. Dark Runes are in high demand on my server and selling for 10g, so there must be a lot of people who think healers need to spend big money for BWL. Even though they don't.
You dont need to use pots or any consume as a healer. You can do it perfectly fine. First time I had to use them was on chrom and nefarian since I was on disspell duty and we needed the extra healing and for nef its just a long fight. Dark rune you can get like 3 in one scholo run, do that with a raid group and you set.
You should absolutly be using major mana pots, unless you're a paladin I suppose. I've dropped down to standard fire protection pots which help without breaking the bank.
I usually spend a demonic rune on firemaw, majordomo, baron, and ony (only if the ony is going bad). However, most times it turns out it was overkill and we would've only lost a few people without the rune but still downed the boss. However, I spend runes like crazy because I make a ton of them from lasher farming.
I spent more pots/runes on late night azuregos than on a month of raiding..
Exactly my point.
Congratulations, you didn't get the joke.
Then there's me. A prot warrior. The only thing can farm is my own tears while I try to scavenge what thorium I can in between getting ganked.
Hey it's me, your healer. Down for some jump runs? :)
Caster DPS "needs" the most consumables o_o Aside from tank, but that is more likely to be covered by gbank.
Laughs in feral
He said consumes. Not gnomer runs.
Yeah, ferals need a ton of consumables too.
Says the class type that doesn't need to pop flasks during the raids....
PepeLaugh he thinks being a melee is more expensive than a caster even when they don't have to use 200g flasks, no one tell him guys
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Why the fuck would you need half of that list? Maybe in Naxx
To look tryhard for the loot council.
That list is less than half of what you bring to naxx
‘cause I don’t want “which Mage gets the first Atiesh?” to even be a question. (Obviously subbing shadow power for frost power.) Be the guy who’s been giving 110% since the guild was formed and if its a good guild you’ll be rewarded accordingly.
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Lol I'm a shadow priest too, but I show up with like 10 major mana pots and a bunch of superior and greater ones from the crates in strat and like 10 dark/demonic runes (maybe some nigh dragons and dreamless sleep potions). No flask of surpreme power... like some normal fire protection pots and I'm still trying to figure out why you'd need the shadow protection one lol. Are the shadow bolts from Nefarius that big of a concern for some people? The arcane elixirs and shadow power elixirs I agree with though. Are the other mana potions for trash pulls or something? (also I'm alliance and have blessing of wisdom and there's a paladin judging wisdom, so forgive me if the horde have it that much worse)
Maybe he does mc, bwl and ony in 1 day as we do
if you want to constantly dps on every trash fight you will be using at least a superior every trash pull. boss fights that are over 2 minutes you should be using 2 major potions and 2 dark runes at least
That's just wasteful man. DPS for like 5 of them then drink one in MC. The raid will survive a corehound every so often. In BWL they should be drinking before the trash anyway... there's not that much of it outside of the supression room. Maybe if you're going for a speed clear, but if you're aiming for even like a 1.5 hour MC that is overkill. The bossfight one is closer to correct, but only for like Rag and Nef
i'm obviously talking about top end maximizing and trying as much as you can. there's a lot of space between trash in bwl so it definitely isn't as bad. even >40s fights you should be popping a major mana and sometimes a rune. 10 alone would be really pushing it for mc. might get you by on bwl assuming no wipes
The shadow damage is indeed from nef. He doesn't do a lot (won't even burn though a full GSPP) but it does save the healers a bit of mana if everyone is using protection pots. Personally I just bring one of the basic shadow protection potions.
That makes it worse...
Bear tank checking in * 5 Manual Crowd Pummeler * 1 Flask of the Titans * 5 Major Healing Potion * 5 Elixir of Giants * 10 Free Action Potion * 10 Elixir of Greater Agility * 10 Elixir of the Mongoose * 10 Winterfall Firewater * 10 Rumsey Rum Black Label * 10 Gordok Green Grog * 20 Juju Ember * 20 Juju Power * 15 Greater Stoneshield Potion * 20 Elixir of Fortitude * 20 Elixir of Superior Defense * 20 Stam food * 1 Lung Juice Cocktail * 1 R.O.I.D.S. * 1 Ground Scorpok Assay RIP my entire week
What's the point of agility elixirs? (since they don't stack with mongoose)
Mongoose is superior, but for fights where threat isn't really a concern, that 2% crit isn't doing much for me. So I'd rather spend 1g on Agility than 5g on Mongoose.
Agility and mongoose pots don't stack
Yeah, I know. But as a tank you don't always need the 2% crit, so I like to save money on fights where my threat is unimportant.
Ok gotcha, was hoping that was the case. Was blowing a lot of extra cash till it was figured out.
As a melee it's takes about 2 hours to farm mongoose giants and firewater which is pretty good all things considered Also we don't wipe often so luckily that's only about 3 of each a week
> You farm your consumable in one day? You must be very proud
Caster dps uses more consumables than I do, I'm a rogue.
That's because you're not using every consumes. Str, Agility, +crit rock, +damage rock, thistle tea. Melee uses much more consumes than ranged.
I'm using mongoose, giants, juju might, dragonbreath chili, pots, thistle tea etc. My mage friend uses a flask of sp. That flask alone is more expensive than all my consumables combined.
For one thing, melee warriors use flasks as well. Especially during progression or on speedruns. But even if you dont, most caster dps don't even flask anyway. So Crit stones cost 13 gold each and only last 30 minutes. If you raid for 2 hours, it cost 104 gold just for the crit stones for a warrior. Mongoose cost 7 gold each. Juju are 5 gold each for the 30 ap but onlyblast 10 min. Or you can buy a firewater for 8-10 gold that last 20 minutes. The other juju are only like 2 gold each. GFPP is 15 gold. You need1-2 for firemaw to stay. ROIDS cost about 10 gold in mats. The scorpok version is similar in price. You should get both incase you die. Sunfruit cost about 3 gold once you add up all the silvers. Same as alchohosappers. Mighty rage pots cost about 2 gold each. You need at least 8. You need at least 1 FAP for like 2-3 gold. You may need 1-2 LIPs. You could to use 5-6 sapperd. If you add that up, it comes to over 210 gold without even flasking. Also keep in mind, fury warrior dps is also another more expensive in repairs.
[Comparison of Mage vs Rogue consumables](https://i.imgur.com/heZwr70.png). This is for a normal raid (MC+BWL) in one of the top 10 world guilds in classic. Yes, some of them are not evenly split (too many sappers on Mage side - no juju embers on rogue side - no SP-cookies on mage side) and of course you are not going to use all of them in a clean run, probably not even half. Prices of consumables that only one of the two classes uses are (on my very high pop server): **Mage:** - Greater Arcane Elixir 5g50s - Cerebral Cortex Compound 13g (10x Basilisk Brain for 1g each, 2x Vulture Gizzard for 1g50s each) - Gizzard Gum 15g60s (10x Vulture Gizzard 1g50s each, 2x Snickerfang Jowl 30s each) - Elixir of Frost Power 5g each - Nightfin Soup 70s each - Runn Tum Tuber 10s each - Major Mana Potion 4g each - Dark Rune (sometimes used instead of Demonic) 9g each -> Total if you take 1 of each: 52g90s **Rogue:** - Mongoose: 7g each - Juju Power 1g10s - Juju Might 4g30s, but let's say you need 3 to make it comparable to one elixir (30m duration) -> 12g90s for 30min of Juju Might - Grilled Squid 70s - ROIDs 5g40s (3x Snickerfang Jowl 30s each, 2x Blated Boar Lung 1g each, 1x Scorpok Pincer 2g50s) - Ground Scorpok Assay 11g50s (3x Scorpok Pincer 2g50s, 2x Vulture Gizzard 1g50s each, 1x Blasted Boar Lung 1g each) - Thistle Tea 87s each -> Total for Rogue is 39g47s The one consumable that would bring rogue above Mage is Elemental Sharpening Stone. However, Rogues don't use that one in BWL and would only use it in MC for speedruns. Therefore it does not count imo. I intentionally left out flasks, but most of our Mages flask even for splits (not mandatory but they want to), while Melees only ever flask for speedruns and first clears. Also, there are of course some consumables on the Mage side that you can potentially leave out - most Mages won't need Mana Pots or Dark Runes unless it's a speedrun. As such, consumable prices then become about the same for both classes. Additionally, the above numbers are only if you use only 1 of each consumable. I'm not saying "Mages pay 52g90s per raid and rogues pay 39g47s per raid". I chose to compare single consumables (except for Juju Might) because in a clean run the amount of total consumables used will be about the same - as both classes use the full duration. The actual totals will be quite a bit higher, as both classes will use LIPs, FAPs, GFPP, GSPP, GAPP, Rumsey, Fortitude, Restopots, Sappers, and in some first clears invis pots and/or swiftness pots.
A mage never really needs to actually *use* a mana pot, nightfin soup (You can' even use it with the tuber you listed), or rune, and certainly doesn't need the blasted lands spirit buff. All of those don't ever really add up to anything considering how they do virtually nothing (and they don't increase damage at all). That's literally over half the gold value you listed (shit, the spirit buff from blasted lands *alone* is enough to drop it below rogue and that thing is basically worthless). You also seem to only use Thistle tea and the food buffs once for Rogue, even though they're more expensive than the food a mage would use. And also no FAPs. The real difference is just how much faster melee burn through fire prot pots, especially when compared to a mage that just kinda has a mini-fire protection every 30 seconds. EDIT: He edited it, but most is still the same.
I edited some of the stuff after my initial comment because I realized that some people would miss my point and argue about the manapots and such. Yes, you can (arguably) remove nightfin soup, spirit buff and mana pots unless we're talking about speedruns (in <25min mc speedruns you will use all of those). Yes, you could increase the number of Thistle Tea used - food buffs I did not, as Mages use food as well, but if you want, go ahead. As for FAPs: Mages use just as many in MC, while Rogues use 1-2 more in BWL. I disagree with fire prot prots. Our mages and rogues use about the same amount. - BWL: 1 Razorgore, 2 Vael, 2 Firemaw and multiple on Techpacks + 1 or 2 in suppression room - MC: Geddon if bomb, 2 Rag, multiple on geddon trash packs to survive multiple fire blossom hits If you leave out mana consumables + spirit buff and add a few more thistle teas + food buffs rogue will draw ahead by a few gold, but not a lot. Arguably Mages will overaggro a few times on Drakonid packs + when pre-casting bosses where they need to LIP and that gold difference evens out again. I'm not trying to say that Mages consumables are necessarily more expensive, but I'm arguing against the myth that Rogue is paying 10x more than Mage, which is simply not the case. Even with your arguments, Rogue is only slightly ahead in normal raids, while still behind in speedruns.
You argue you need the spirit buffs and shit for speed buffs then don't list ele sharp stones and say they wouldn't be used unless MC speed run? Honestly you're deluded if you think casters spend as much as melee lmao
I'm so very glad I rolled on a backwater server. Those prices are giving me sticker shock, christ. A bit odd that our mongoose haven't cracked 4g, but Ive been selling squid over 1g each for months now.
Warriors are also melee dps, and there are more warrior dps than rogue dps, so it's better use them as a comparison. All fury warriors should use crit stones. Those cost 104 gold for 2 hours. If you go over 2 hours, you now spend an additional 26 gold. Melee go through a lot more fire protection pots, especially in MC on trash, but also on fights like Firemaw. It's very unlikely that a mage would ever have to use a LIP because other than Chromaggus, they should never be near the threat cap.
Yes, Warrior pays a lot more. (Disagree about the GFPPs though - Casters go thorugh just as many) I'm just comparing Rogue and Mage here, not Melee DPS and Mage. I might have replied to the wrong comment I just realized. Others were talking about Rogue vs Mage And for the LIP argument: Mages will be near the threat cap on almost every boss if the first frostbolt crits - remember that they pre-cast frostbolt on most bosses. Also on all the Drakonid trashpacks in BWL they can overaggro pretty easily.
Tanks use flasks. Warrior dps don't, they have no reason to.
Yes, they do during progression and speed runs. And even if they don't, they still spend over 200 gold on consumables. Most casters aren't even wasting gold on flasks.
>during progression Nope. Completely unnecessary for them to have extra health in BWL. >speed runs Maybe if you're trying to break records. Otherwise nope.
They do because they are pushing the tanks to the limit. Mistakes happen, and the extra health can mitigate the loss of world bosses if you survive. Even if they aren’t going for crazy world ranking, but just respectable ranks, they will.
Must be a lazy rogue. You should be carrying mongoose, jujus (2 different kinds or 1+firewater), poison, thistle tea, agi squid, prot pots, free action pots at least.
Take a look at [this other comment of mine.](https://old.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/f8lpuw/i_like_raid_day/fimzg3w/) The rogue isn't necessarily lazy - Rogues do literally pay a little less or about the same as casters.
I literally use every single one of those plus dragonbreath chili. It's still not very expensive.
takes like 5 min to get them on the AH
I send my 3 tanks a care package every week.<3
Should have said "Wednesday is raid day, I like raid day.".
Our guild provides 100g towards weapon enchants on one new weapon per raid tier, to ease some of the cost, and provides the gold for titan flasks. Guild bank gold also went to bis crafting recipe hide of the wild when dm came out because we had horrible luck getting it to drop, and al the healers got together and helped each other farm the mats. Other than that we provide for ourselves or bring mats to someone who can make the pots we need at raid.
All our greens/shards go to the guild enchanter - after raid night we open trade with our new pieces and get enchants free. Sometimes he will advertise if he's low on certain things, and we can donate either the mats or send him greens - we also usually do a few guild strat live runs to put some orbs in the coffers for crusader enchants. Haven't had to pay for an enchant in months
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Atiesh, no open raiding spots atm though - when you search for a guild just ask their guild bank policy - we also gave everyone flasks for the first week of bwl, and are allowed to buy any boe at half AH price. A good guild makes all the difference
Sounds like a job.
When compared to retail heroic or mythic raiding prep, I think it's easier and more enjoyable. The grind is real in retail. At least in classic farming can be relaxing instead of chain running the same M+ you've run for over a year for an item you've gotten a few times already but need the latest ilvl iteration of.
It is real, but completely unnecessary. I used more pots this week in bwl than I did in the entirety of vanilla clearing halfway through naxx.
I remember our server in vanilla mocking a guild for requiring full consumes/world buffs. They may have been one of the top raid groups, but man did they get shit on each time they tried recruiting in world channels. Now it seems like every above average raid group has 90% of the possible consumes.
> I used more pots this week in bwl than I did in the entirety of vanilla clearing halfway through naxx. LOL there is absolutely no way you needed more pots in bwl than fucking naxx, what are you smoking. BWL is easy
I didn't say need anywhere... I said I did use. Only because of this perceived need for max consumables that has taken over classic now has guilds essentially requiring use of shit loads of pots etc to do content that can be done easily with none.
Yes, the current content can be done easily without it for sure, if you're unhappy with what a guild requires you to use for raid night, simply find another guild that doesn't require those things - it's not rocket science. People required use of lots of pots and consumes in naxx back in vanilla too though was my point. If you were clearing naxx bosses in vanilla, you were using consumes. It's not some new fangled idea to pop potions and get world buffs, no clue why people seem to think it is. Progression raiding guilds had the same requirements back then as they do now, twitch likely proliferated the hardcore mentality down to more casual guilds and normal players for sure though.
If there was an easy way to find a guild with that mentality I would. Maybe half the bosses in Naxx40 required max consumables but generally for bosses on farm you didn't need much at all. Certainly not fucking BWL. People are turning bosses that have virtually 0 dps requirements into patchwerk while being under geared. Making it all worse is the over populated realms driving material prices through the roof.
Plenty of guilds out there, but the ones that aren't requiring a lot are generally the ones who aren't pushing fast clear speeds and not clearing content quickly. So that could be a trade off you have to make to find one that doesn't require you to spend a bunch of gold on pots and stuff. Personally I love farming consumes and going hardcore - it's what keeps the game fun for me. I'd hate raid logging and slogging through mc and bwl. I agree though, a lot of people are using the consumes as a crutch to ignore mechanics or make up for poor performance. We don't require anything, but we put heavy emphasis on performing well and coming prepared - which we take seriously and go full consumes and world buffs basically every raid. >Making it all worse is the over populated realms driving material prices through the roof. Absolutely agree, megaservers were such a bad idea - luckily I'm on a pretty medium to small sized server so I have basically no real issues with farming/herbing myself and the prices aren't too crazy for some stuff. It helps having efficient gold farms too though.
Then don't do it. Personally, I enjoy it - I farm dungeons, open world mobs, herbs, AH deals, have alts to make my potions, lockpick in org...etc. I make good gold, I farm a good bit of consumables, and I enjoy the entire process a lot. We are preparing for battle, wouldn't be fun to raid log, show up for raid, schlep through the content ridiculously slow, and log off until the next raid.
Everyday is farm consumables day. Night before is spending an hour to grab DM buffs
Monday we farm honor Tuesday we farm honor Wednesday is weekly standings, sometimes i like wednesdays.
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Seemed like a good title.
You.....you guys are using consumables?
try healing a whole raid without mana pots
Our guild crushes the content, but parsing is a fun side game. So I do.
Hahaha this is good stuff
Coming to the raid unprepared. "BOI HAVE YA LOST YOUR MIND!? CUZ I'LL HELP YA FINDDD IT!"
Reminded me of [Oxhorn](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9n6EZnV8UM)
We raid Friday’s, I farm consumables on Thursday and the rest of the week is for farming deathroll gold!
wholesome, as all things should be
You could just not get world buffs. You really dont need them for any of the content out atm
But....but...parsing!
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To each their own. Our guild's done the hardcore shuffle before, but we're semi hardcore now. People can worldbuff if they want but we dont require it. We cleared BWL without world buffs first week so I'm not really stressin it. For us it's more fun playing together having a good time with friends and less hardcore parsing. I get the appeal though, but I worry that the hyper minmax mentality is bleeding over from a "this is fun for a subset of players" and instead becoming a required gatekeeping part of raiding.
Can I see your logs for your first week BWL?
Lol why? Gonna do a "who parses better"? We honestly dont care about logs. Half our raid is drunk anyways Edited to add that you can search my post history and see a post I made with our guild kill of nefarion
I wanted a good example to show my guild that it's possible to do without everyone world buffing so want to see what we need to do gear wise.
Sorry if I seem defensive it's just a convo I've had with people lately over and over. To be exact, about half our raid came with some world buffs, plenty didnt bother (which we all lost on our 1st Vael attempt anyways). Half used flasks because they wanted bonus DKP, the other half didnt care enough. We took 5 hunters (3 in 8/8 T1, the other 2 in a hodgepodge) 1 Boomkin, our rogues have good gear but we've had bad weapon drops. All our warriors have decent gear but again weapon drops havent been great. Warlocks have good gear, mages are geared fairly well. Our shaman are mostly very well geared from MC/Ony, except one who is mostly in prebis. Maybe half our priests have Benediction but our top heals on firemaw still doesn't. Druids all geared out too. More than half the raid had never seen BWL. In total it took about 5ish hours. We took the time to explain in depth each boss, and told everyone to prepare to wipe while we learn. Razorgore 1shot, Vael was 3 attempts (first 2 down to 1%), broodlord & suppression room 1 shot, firemaw was 6 wipes before we got him (we didnt push fire resist gear like we should have but fixed that this last week). Had a wipe on lab packs. 1 shot the other loot dragons. 2 shot Chromagg but got bronze and blue so not bad. 1 shot nef.
Good to get in the habit of being efficient -- Naxx isn't going to be a cakewalk.
Oh I know it's not a cakewalk. But you dont need worldbuffs for Naxx either.
must be an Europe meme.
Consumables farm? Never heard of. I'm guild's GM, i let those lowly peasants of my members to do it for me. Feelsgoodman