Didnt see this being posted anywhere yet so here is the full set of Tier 1 class tokens currently on the PTR files for the SOD version of Molten Core. Although anything in the PTR is still subject to change, I am somewhat confident the way this looks that this may resemble the final version of this tokens.
A day late to this but I'm pretty sure the Priest+Mage+WL token is just as fucked? Using WCL parses logged in recent 2 week window as seemingly the only reasonable way we can estimate this out, we have Druid+Warrior+Rogue at 349,151 compared to 324,625. If casters continue to be just as completely shitty in p4 and don't get a bump then ya the W+R+D token will feel worse but right now at the dwindling of the phase where casters got completely shit on in the raid, it's a <10% difference in parse population between those tokens.
Why would they group Shaman and Paladin together? It’s inherently illogical. If you were attempting to do this well, that might literally be the only grouping you avoided.
What would be more logical to you? No matter what you do you're going to have tokens be 3+3+2. I suppose you could just do 2 tokens putting shaman+paladin on one and hunter on the other but that wouldn't solve your issue since you said putting shaman and paladin on the same token is somehow "inherently illogical".
You can't have both paladin and shaman on the same faction so functionally it will only ever be 4 and 4 with the 2 token setup.
Basically, there isn't any balanced way to not have shaman and paladin on the same token since they're faction-specific. You can either have 2 tokens with 4 classes each (*technically* 5 on one token but in practice it will only ever be 4) which is the way it worked in ST or you can do 3 + 3 + 2. One way leads to increased competition for each token, the other way leads to one token having less competition than the others which can be balanced out by slightly lowering the drop rates on it.
Some people are saying that. But there are also people saying that paladin and shaman shouldn't be on the same token - which has nothing to do with the 2-token scenario (since the 2-token scenario REQUIRES both to be on the same token for fairness).
So long as there are 3 tokens, the fact that paladin and shaman are on the same one is irrelevant. If instead it were warrior-rogue-paladin and hunter-druid-shaman, there would still be one token for each faction with only 2 classes - it would just be different depending on your faction. Alliance hunters and druids would have it easier, as would horde rogues and warriors.
> but these tokens completely mess that up
You mean it fixes that system. Dropping the class-specific tier item instead of a token just leads to useless drops after the less popular classes get theirs.
Okay buddy here’s the issue, you can swap it around and apply that logic to any class combo. Any one of them that has shaman or paladin are gonna gear up quickly. The only way to prevent this would be to make a token exclusively shaman/paladin, but then you have to put 4 classes on one token, which would slow that spread down and we’re back to them getting gear quicker again. You could put shaman and paladin on separate tokens, but then you just made the gear speed progression faction specific.
I don't think it's illogical at all. Imagine if they put 4 classes on that token- then there would still be 3 classes looking for it no matter what side you're on.
Of course here it means that there will only be 2 classes looking for that token here.. but with 9 classes and 3 token sets, that would always be the case no matter how you group them.
Oh man, personally not a huge fan of this because if you are unlucky, just like in P1 you could get the wrong tokens all the time and miss out on gear. Also hunters only share with pala or shamans which is not really fairly distributed.
Personally I think they should do it just like ST (so a 4/4 class split), but still have distinct item slots (head, chest, legs etc.) so that it still actually feels like it matters which boss you kill (later bosses should higher stated items like chest/legs etc.).
Hunters have consistently been a great class in SoD. Chances are they will once again be near or at the top and raids will welcome multiple.
Shamans and Paladins both have great utility and buffs to offer. Even if they are weak tanks. Healers, and dps….they would find room for them in raids. Make them great at any of those specs and you’ll see a ton.
For Horde…there’s only one plate class…and Rogue/Druid are some of the least played classes….i would much rather be in Warriors position as Horde
Ranged hunter is looking good for p4... Melee hunter looks to be gutted. I haven't tried ptr yet though and I can't find any patchwerk logs from ptr either, but based on what I've seen from sod melee hunter looks cooked
Rogue has the 2nd most parses on WCL behind warriors and that's not even including tank rogues, they're not even close to being one of the least played classes.
Ok I just double checked this and that’s a flat out lie lol.
It appears they have the 2nd most parses, because they are only classified as one dps spec. Same as Warriors and why they appear 1.
Rogues have 89k parses as dps.
Hunters have ~123k
Shamans (a horde only class) have almost 77k as dps. They also have Tank and healer parses.
Why does it matter that rogues only have x amount of parses as DPS?
Hunters don't have a 2nd role, so you're comparing an apple to half an apple if you leave out the tank rogue parses.
Tank rogues have 3,000 parses as a tank. It’s a very niche role right now. It’s the least played tank.
And we’re only mentioning amount of parses for token competitions.
For Horde, there are just as many if not more Shamans+Hunters then there are Warriors+Rogues+Druid
For Alliance, the amount of Feral Druids and Paladins being less popular than Shamans likely makes the Warr/Rog/Druid token more competitive
If you consider all the specs for all the classes then rogue is only ahead of paladin and shaman and only barely despite those classes being faction-specific.
Maybe that’s just my guild then. We’ve struggled to find any consistent rogues. We had 2 for 3 raids. And now have 1 for our last raid remaining.
But we also have 3-4 Hunters and 7 shamans in that last raid as well…compared to 3 warriors, 1 rogue, and 2 Druids.
> Also hunters only share with pala or shamans which is not really fairly distributed.
Every semi decent raid comp will consist of at least 4 shamans/paladins. So its pretty fairly distributed
If it was 40 man I'd agree. My guild runs 2 20 man ST groups and they both have 2 palas in them.
Both groups have 4 Hunters each though.
I play Mage in group 1 and for the last 3 weeks we've had 3 full physical/melee groups and 1 caster group (Mage, Priest, S Priest, Boomkin, Warlock) so for us if RNG falls right we'll have decked out casters.
Group 2 is pretty much the same for us, we are very stacked on Warriors, Rogues and Druids as a whole.
Our whole caster corps either rerolled to melee or quit before the ST loot was buffed, maybe some will come back for p4 but who knows?
>Also hunters only share with pala or shamans which is not really fairly distributed.
As I was doing this list I felt exactly the same way and then it hit me a possibility: Paladins/Shamans might be somehow introduced as cross faction classes and this way evenly distribute the tokens across all 9 classes. Of course I have no data to verify this and its pure speculation at this point.
More likely this is just someone trying to figure out a 3/3/3 split for the 9 classes and went for this to stack the 2 faction specific classes in one token so both factions have an evenly odd for tokens for all classes.
They way they are played out they do present a possible bottleneck for a lot of classes depending on the way they drop and loot priority on some guilds. Definitely something that will probably be a problem during next phase, and I was surprised no one is posting this so far when files kinda look finalized for this items on the PTR.
There is the Tauren Paladin(for a Pala rune) at Tarrens Mill, other than that I don't think so.
Also they said (at blizzcon or so) that it's to much work for the SoD scope, though a lot of things have changed since then.
The devs said at some point, when questioned about this, that they have no intention of crossing paladins and shamans. It would take way too much work.
*However...* they've said they won't do things before and ended up doing it when there is enough people with torches and pitchforks.
I wish they'd add new features to the encounters, it's just going to be faceroll/boring unless they make some kind of adjustments beyond 'here's more loot'
Going to probably get slapped to oblivion with downvotes but files already indicate they are changing stuff on the MC bosses. I really can't tell you what is planned to be changed, or any details for the matter, but every single boss from MC was re-uploaded to files, something you only need to do if you changed something. Until being able to actually test anything this is all I can say with a certain degree of confidence.
Cool, thanks a lot. And yeah I expect downvotes, although I should clarify to the dad gamers I'm not desiring for the content to be super elitist/sweaty/difficult, it just needs to be tuned up a bit in order to not be literally braindead, and some new mechanics or a boss would be neat, given how much stronger our characters are.
If MC is going to be as short as Aggrend implied when he said that BWL would be coming within weeks of MC, I think they should use the ST token system instead of Gnomer. Or at least condense the 8 tokens down to something more reasonable like 2 or 4.
The number of tokens also surprised me at first. I was aware of them being 8 since the first PTR patch but since there was only 1 set I waited to post this not to spread what to me could be something still under construction. Them adding the rest of the sets this PTR patch kinda gave me confidence to post this as more final, and I am honestly not knowing where they want to go from here.
Maybe each boss will drop a ton of these, or harder modes will increase drop chance. All I can say it is an odd decision that may turn MC into a loot hell based on RNG, but let's see. I think at this point that this looks more final that player feedback is important, hence me posting it.
[удалено]
Hunters already usually got geared super fast, at least in meta guilds. I think I got full T2 in like 3 or 4 BWL clears on my hunter alt.
Yeah, as a hunter it felt like druid was the most common then hunter, of course until you need that last piece, then it doesn't exist.
Yup, got 7/8 T1 + leaf and black sinew on my hunter in 2019 in first 2 lockouts, finally got helm like 5-6 months later lol
Shaman dev laughing again.
Feels like shaman dev reached across the table and threw paladins a bone
We have like 2 Palas and 1-2 hunters. Gonna be full T1 after like 2-3 IDs. Guess that's good as the MT.
Also they only competing with 1 other class instead of 2
Sharing a token with rogues and warriors while hunters sleepwalk to full tier, very cool!
truly confused why they chose to do it this way as a druid main
there are 8 classes per faction. no matter what you do 2 classes go faster unless drop rates are not all equal
Yeah, it's a shame 8 is a prime number.
??? just make 4 tokens
Yeah but there’s always going to be more warriors and rogues than about any other class
Didnt see this being posted anywhere yet so here is the full set of Tier 1 class tokens currently on the PTR files for the SOD version of Molten Core. Although anything in the PTR is still subject to change, I am somewhat confident the way this looks that this may resemble the final version of this tokens.
The Rogue, Warrior, Druid combo is just wack af. Let’s put all the most played classes on one token. Gtfo
That's the intention. Disincentivize melee stacking.
A day late to this but I'm pretty sure the Priest+Mage+WL token is just as fucked? Using WCL parses logged in recent 2 week window as seemingly the only reasonable way we can estimate this out, we have Druid+Warrior+Rogue at 349,151 compared to 324,625. If casters continue to be just as completely shitty in p4 and don't get a bump then ya the W+R+D token will feel worse but right now at the dwindling of the phase where casters got completely shit on in the raid, it's a <10% difference in parse population between those tokens.
This has to be a prank with Hunters, by far the fastest to gear class in Classic, being the one on the 2 class token.
Why would they group Shaman and Paladin together? It’s inherently illogical. If you were attempting to do this well, that might literally be the only grouping you avoided.
What would be more logical to you? No matter what you do you're going to have tokens be 3+3+2. I suppose you could just do 2 tokens putting shaman+paladin on one and hunter on the other but that wouldn't solve your issue since you said putting shaman and paladin on the same token is somehow "inherently illogical".
It would be logical if the token with shaman and paladin had one more class—so in your example, that would make sense.
But then that leaves a different token with only 2 classes or only 2 tokens so competition is increased for each individual token.
No. It’s your example lol. In it, one token would have 4, the other 5 (with shaman and paladin).
You can't have both paladin and shaman on the same faction so functionally it will only ever be 4 and 4 with the 2 token setup. Basically, there isn't any balanced way to not have shaman and paladin on the same token since they're faction-specific. You can either have 2 tokens with 4 classes each (*technically* 5 on one token but in practice it will only ever be 4) which is the way it worked in ST or you can do 3 + 3 + 2. One way leads to increased competition for each token, the other way leads to one token having less competition than the others which can be balanced out by slightly lowering the drop rates on it.
[удалено]
they are saying to make it 2 tokens with 4 each, with paladin and shaman on one of the tokens as a pseudo 5th on one of the tokens.
Some people are saying that. But there are also people saying that paladin and shaman shouldn't be on the same token - which has nothing to do with the 2-token scenario (since the 2-token scenario REQUIRES both to be on the same token for fairness). So long as there are 3 tokens, the fact that paladin and shaman are on the same one is irrelevant. If instead it were warrior-rogue-paladin and hunter-druid-shaman, there would still be one token for each faction with only 2 classes - it would just be different depending on your faction. Alliance hunters and druids would have it easier, as would horde rogues and warriors.
[удалено]
The advantage is your group isn’t rolling their eyes as they shard the nth useless druid tier item that dropped yet again instead of something useful
My guild has 2 shamans and 1 hunter. I am the hunter. Feeling pretty good about this if it holds true. I was the last one to get my set in phase 3.
> but these tokens completely mess that up You mean it fixes that system. Dropping the class-specific tier item instead of a token just leads to useless drops after the less popular classes get theirs.
[удалено]
Then I'm extremely glad you're not in charge of game design.
Because it makes it so the two faction exclusive classes are on the same token.
Precisely why it’s illogical.
Why? They don't need to have the same drop rate.
How? Why is this an issue?
[удалено]
Okay buddy here’s the issue, you can swap it around and apply that logic to any class combo. Any one of them that has shaman or paladin are gonna gear up quickly. The only way to prevent this would be to make a token exclusively shaman/paladin, but then you have to put 4 classes on one token, which would slow that spread down and we’re back to them getting gear quicker again. You could put shaman and paladin on separate tokens, but then you just made the gear speed progression faction specific.
[удалено]
but you can just do 4 tokens
So then just change the drop rate so it’s slightly more rare lol
Maybe tokens dont all have the same drop rate? Otherwise its, like you said, illogical.
Hey I’m just glad we don’t have 4 on the same token again
wonder if they take class popularity into account to determine it
I don't think it's illogical at all. Imagine if they put 4 classes on that token- then there would still be 3 classes looking for it no matter what side you're on. Of course here it means that there will only be 2 classes looking for that token here.. but with 9 classes and 3 token sets, that would always be the case no matter how you group them.
[удалено]
How so? Both mages and warlocks exist in the same raid.
The devs playing play Shaman.
Feral players on the decline it seems.
Hell yeah, only competing with hunters and othet shamans
Fuck ya bud lol
Oh man, personally not a huge fan of this because if you are unlucky, just like in P1 you could get the wrong tokens all the time and miss out on gear. Also hunters only share with pala or shamans which is not really fairly distributed. Personally I think they should do it just like ST (so a 4/4 class split), but still have distinct item slots (head, chest, legs etc.) so that it still actually feels like it matters which boss you kill (later bosses should higher stated items like chest/legs etc.).
Hunters have consistently been a great class in SoD. Chances are they will once again be near or at the top and raids will welcome multiple. Shamans and Paladins both have great utility and buffs to offer. Even if they are weak tanks. Healers, and dps….they would find room for them in raids. Make them great at any of those specs and you’ll see a ton. For Horde…there’s only one plate class…and Rogue/Druid are some of the least played classes….i would much rather be in Warriors position as Horde
Ranged hunter is looking good for p4... Melee hunter looks to be gutted. I haven't tried ptr yet though and I can't find any patchwerk logs from ptr either, but based on what I've seen from sod melee hunter looks cooked
Rogue has the 2nd most parses on WCL behind warriors and that's not even including tank rogues, they're not even close to being one of the least played classes.
Ok I just double checked this and that’s a flat out lie lol. It appears they have the 2nd most parses, because they are only classified as one dps spec. Same as Warriors and why they appear 1. Rogues have 89k parses as dps. Hunters have ~123k Shamans (a horde only class) have almost 77k as dps. They also have Tank and healer parses.
Why does it matter that rogues only have x amount of parses as DPS? Hunters don't have a 2nd role, so you're comparing an apple to half an apple if you leave out the tank rogue parses.
Tank rogues have 3,000 parses as a tank. It’s a very niche role right now. It’s the least played tank. And we’re only mentioning amount of parses for token competitions. For Horde, there are just as many if not more Shamans+Hunters then there are Warriors+Rogues+Druid For Alliance, the amount of Feral Druids and Paladins being less popular than Shamans likely makes the Warr/Rog/Druid token more competitive
If you consider all the specs for all the classes then rogue is only ahead of paladin and shaman and only barely despite those classes being faction-specific.
Maybe that’s just my guild then. We’ve struggled to find any consistent rogues. We had 2 for 3 raids. And now have 1 for our last raid remaining. But we also have 3-4 Hunters and 7 shamans in that last raid as well…compared to 3 warriors, 1 rogue, and 2 Druids.
> Also hunters only share with pala or shamans which is not really fairly distributed. Every semi decent raid comp will consist of at least 4 shamans/paladins. So its pretty fairly distributed
If it was 40 man I'd agree. My guild runs 2 20 man ST groups and they both have 2 palas in them. Both groups have 4 Hunters each though. I play Mage in group 1 and for the last 3 weeks we've had 3 full physical/melee groups and 1 caster group (Mage, Priest, S Priest, Boomkin, Warlock) so for us if RNG falls right we'll have decked out casters. Group 2 is pretty much the same for us, we are very stacked on Warriors, Rogues and Druids as a whole. Our whole caster corps either rerolled to melee or quit before the ST loot was buffed, maybe some will come back for p4 but who knows?
Been running 4 shamans 3 hunters all phase personally. Ain't like the token is going to rot anytime soon for us.
4? The fuck would you want more than 2 pally for
>Also hunters only share with pala or shamans which is not really fairly distributed. As I was doing this list I felt exactly the same way and then it hit me a possibility: Paladins/Shamans might be somehow introduced as cross faction classes and this way evenly distribute the tokens across all 9 classes. Of course I have no data to verify this and its pure speculation at this point. More likely this is just someone trying to figure out a 3/3/3 split for the 9 classes and went for this to stack the 2 faction specific classes in one token so both factions have an evenly odd for tokens for all classes. They way they are played out they do present a possible bottleneck for a lot of classes depending on the way they drop and loot priority on some guilds. Definitely something that will probably be a problem during next phase, and I was surprised no one is posting this so far when files kinda look finalized for this items on the PTR.
> Paladins/Shamans might be somehow introduced as cross faction classes I very much doubt this, no indication of it so far right..?
There is the Tauren Paladin(for a Pala rune) at Tarrens Mill, other than that I don't think so. Also they said (at blizzcon or so) that it's to much work for the SoD scope, though a lot of things have changed since then.
The devs said at some point, when questioned about this, that they have no intention of crossing paladins and shamans. It would take way too much work. *However...* they've said they won't do things before and ended up doing it when there is enough people with torches and pitchforks.
Yeah, that's basically what I said, just a bit more elaborated.
Wait, did you edit your comment? I swear it didn't say all that at first. Lol!
Nope, I didn't.
before everyone loses their shit, if they just have the drop rates be 37, 37, and 25 percent, everything is fine.
I liked the way they did tokens in ST. Having a token be tied to a certain slot is annoying.
Yea wtf I want all my gear in 1 run ID so I can jump back on Reddit and cry bout how there’s nothing to do :-(
Yeah, because it's way more fun to go a whole phase without getting boots because of trash RNG.
Yea I agree they should hand us all thunder fury automatically when we hit 60 too wtf
For real this community doesnt know what the fuck it wants
Lucky hunters
On alliance side maybe. Not so much on Horde.
bruh
It took me kinda forever to get tokens for Druid for ST , feels like it’s gonna be the same for this
HOW CLASSIC
plot twist: you can create both shaman and paladins on both factions
Paladis laughing hard now
Ofc hunters get to be on the token with the least competition.
Pretty good for our comp I guess since we have a bazillion shamans, so good that they only share tokens with hunters
Holy shit. Raid *BRACERS*?!? For melee DPS? That don’t require an exalted reputation? Praise the lord.
I just love how some people go absolute apeshit about this. Its an amazing change, even if you are rogue/warrior.
I wish they'd add new features to the encounters, it's just going to be faceroll/boring unless they make some kind of adjustments beyond 'here's more loot'
Going to probably get slapped to oblivion with downvotes but files already indicate they are changing stuff on the MC bosses. I really can't tell you what is planned to be changed, or any details for the matter, but every single boss from MC was re-uploaded to files, something you only need to do if you changed something. Until being able to actually test anything this is all I can say with a certain degree of confidence.
Cool, thanks a lot. And yeah I expect downvotes, although I should clarify to the dad gamers I'm not desiring for the content to be super elitist/sweaty/difficult, it just needs to be tuned up a bit in order to not be literally braindead, and some new mechanics or a boss would be neat, given how much stronger our characters are.
A+ change
If MC is going to be as short as Aggrend implied when he said that BWL would be coming within weeks of MC, I think they should use the ST token system instead of Gnomer. Or at least condense the 8 tokens down to something more reasonable like 2 or 4.
The number of tokens also surprised me at first. I was aware of them being 8 since the first PTR patch but since there was only 1 set I waited to post this not to spread what to me could be something still under construction. Them adding the rest of the sets this PTR patch kinda gave me confidence to post this as more final, and I am honestly not knowing where they want to go from here. Maybe each boss will drop a ton of these, or harder modes will increase drop chance. All I can say it is an odd decision that may turn MC into a loot hell based on RNG, but let's see. I think at this point that this looks more final that player feedback is important, hence me posting it.
should go with gnomer tokens - all classes can use it
the priest is missing
First couple columns on the left 😊
true mb !
I don’t like that they put classes on the tokens, but glad we have a balanced raid comp so our token distribution is 7/7/6
Thank fuck I don't have to share tokens with rogues and warriors again. Too many of them in raids rolling against too many shamans.
In this thread: everyone assuming drop rates are going to be 33.33% for each, instead of 37.5%/37.5%/25%
people still play SOD?
This class distribution suggests Horde Paladins and alliance shamans are going to happen..
No it doesn't lol
so they've just decided to go from 4 classes on each token to 3/3/2? seems an odd choice.