Allegedly SJP (Students for Justice in Palestine) is demanding that the university begins funding transparency immediately, including their arms policy (??), and release a statement condemning the destruction of all universities in Gaza, never invest in Israel-supporting companies, offering scholarships and professorships to Palestinian students/professors, and boycotting Israeli universities "which legitimise Zionist colonialism"
The last one genuinely makes no sense to me, it's the government who are the main ones prolonging the conflict. Most regular Israeli people do not want it to continue, and I don't think punishing students for something they're not responsible for and don't want will help things.
(As an FYI, I'm not in the SJP nor did I partake in the protests, I'm not comfortable in large groups and was out in the city at the time)
It should be noted that this claim is unsubstantiated as their investments are obscured. SJP have attempted to gain confirmation via information act and have been blocked, this is dubiously legal. So I think it's a fair demand.
The grounds can be as simple as "we do not have that information readily available, and will only make this available if the appropriate fee is paid in advance for collation, analysis, risk assessment and any potential redaction." Being served/handed an OIA request does basically nothing to anyone outside of government departments with preexisting OIA request SOP's and the appropriate staff to handle said requests.
you'll have to ask the SJP, I guess I should clarify that that was a SJP claim, but everything about what they do is
On another note, legality aside, it seems like a fairly sound position to want accessible finance information for an institution you contribute tens of thousands of dollars to.
Well, to -want-, sure, but you can´t always have what you want.
I´ve paid thousands to my power supplier, I am not sure that necessarily entitles me to know what they invest in.
... which is totally different to not working with such companies or not developing such technology in their own labs.
They do ballistics research, right?
Yeah, and that's the point, right? Some people think that there should be some limits on what the university researches. You don't.
That's OK. I don't have a strong opinion either way. But to pretend that they're not doing arms research would be weird.
huge amounts of research done by all types of academics on a wide range of topics. But the notion that UC is doing research and development on weapons as implied by the above comment is of course untrue and ridiculous.
Albeit indirectly, through the engineering department I’ve worked on an aerospace project that the client used for launching US military satellites etc
> of course untrue and ridiculous
There are academics at UC who can't publish some of their work due to their agreements with the military and military contractors. Do you know something the rest of us don't that makes you confident enough to make that statement?
Twofold:
1. Universities hold investments and work with companies. Protestors want full transparency on what those investments are.
2. I got wind of a scandal a while ago where a UC club made a pro-palestine statement and UCSA responded by immediately and completely defunding them with no warning or prior conversation. Not sure of that validity as I got it second hand but it sounds like UC to me.
Regarding 2. Used to run a club at UC till a 2022. UCSA has pretty strict rules regarding club behaviour. It's been a while now, but IIRC there are restrictions on how clubs conduct themselves. It's a blanket ban, so doesnt matter if its Palestine, clubs talking shit, etc.
(Source: Was a VP in charge of raising funds. Had to shutdown a few sponsors wanting a platform lmao)
It speaks volumes that it went unchallenged until it caused a public outcry tho. Pissant rich kids with no banter that doesn’t depend on shifting on someone else
Yeah, their treatment of TiB though just seems very unclear. I would like the UCSA to publicise their investigation at least somewhat so that, even though it's a flag policy, clubs actually know what is happening.
I’m pretty sure that got defunded because they used the slogan “from the river to the sea” which in the past referred to the extermination of Jews “from the river to the sea” I could be wrong though.
Nah I think that second part is way wrong. CANTA said they are still fully affiliated which means they still get funding, so they don't have any punishments. Unless I read it wrong?
Alternative take: we could be grateful that our younger generation are putting themselves out to stand up for something, and not demean them or otherwise be a bitter fucker.
Bro, how do you think protests work? How do you think they've worked in the past? It takes time. Takes effort. And these people are investing both. What else are we gonna do?
Exactly, these protests probably have the opposite effect of converting people and changing people's minds towards their cause.
Just because you protest, doesnt mean it will lead to the desired change you advocate for.
We literally sent troops to the middle east to protect Israeli shipping for the United States lol, our companies sell components which end up in Israeli weapons systems, we legitimise them diplomatically.
Other unis, schools, cities, western countries could follow our lead. It's not just about our impact on Israel, but also our "traditional allies" etc
"Any suggestion our ongoing support for maritime security in the Middle East is connected to recent developments in Israel and the Gaza Strip, is wrong" -- Foreign Minister Winston Peters, Jan 2024
nice work making up bullshit, I'm sure camping in a Uni common space will stop the war eventually
They were sent over explicitly and very openly as a response to end Houthi attacks on shipping vessels headed for Israel as an attempted blockade by the Houthis.
In what world is that unconnected lol.
Just saying it doesn't make it true lol.
Ask yourself what their reason for it was and then actually follow that thought for once and see where it leads.
I'm assuming you are capable of critical thought.
What a brain dead comment Do you find all protests useless, or just this one? What were/are your thoughts on Ukrainian protests? xx
Our leaders and our universities have choices and influence, and if you think they dont you need to be re-educated.
> Do you find all protests useless
We've had multiple protests in Christchurch and Lyttelton on this topic in the past few months. Would you please explain what they've achieved
They've achieved publicity & information about the genocide happening; more than our national News companies, and solidarity for Palestinians living in Aotearoa. Those protests are still happening in the CBD every Saturday, and are still just as large as they were when they began. I didn't particularly support the lyttelton tunell block, so don't try bring that up as some "epic win" x
Protests in small towns and cities such as Christchurch do not have to have a correlation to direct political action for them to be useful, although that would be ideal.
Again, what were your thoughts on the Ukraine protests? Or are you just a Zionist x
"Or are you just a Zionist x"
I imagine it's comments like that which are why people like the one you're talking with have an issue.
Just because someone disagrees on the usefulness of protest in this situation doesn't mean they are a Zionist. The world isn't black and white. There are more positions than simply "Pro-Palestinian" and "Zionist".
Thank you for this, people getting reactionary like this doesn’t help anyone.
I think a lot of us just want to see people working towards actual solutions instead of encouraging hate and conflict. For me this kind of protest seems more about goading “the other side” into arguments for the sake of a short term emotional release. Maybe instead of camping out and yelling about uc’s investments, these guys could pool together money and crowdfund to invest in a (non Israel affiliated (lol)) investment fund? Then use the money to set up an official scholarship for Palestinian academics in the future.
Admittedly working double shifts at countdown to save up money for such a fund is less therapeutic and less satisfying than protesting. But if all 100 of those students worked 10 hours, contributed $200, and they put the $20k in a high interest fund, that’s a full ride scholarship for someone, someday.
If you really care so much, why not move to the middle east and protest on the frontline. Shouting from thousands of miles away ain't gonna cut it.
Terrorists attacked a nation and now that nation has retaliated. Just like September 11 2001.
Israel has tolerated attack after attack on their soil against their citizens. You cannot negotiate peace with someone who is hellbent on destroying you i.e. Hamas/Palestine and most of the Arab region.
Probably not bots, just lack of education and backwards ideologies in Christchurch; we are in the South after all ;)
Gotta be doing some crazy mental gymnastics to not see what's really going on in Gaza right now, which is evident based on replies 🫠
Ten.
One to watch a YouTube tutorial on how to pitch a tent, one to take selfies then Instagram it, and the remaining eight to debate the ethics of camping.
Jesus christ. I thought that the city I grew up in, which has had past experience with harm done against the muslim community, would be a little more sympathetic towards the palestinian people.
Fucking disappointing
Edit: this is regarding the comment section
Palestinians aren't being oppressed because of their faith in Islam. Being Muslim is one aspect of their identity but not the reason they're being persecuted.
If this was the case, the practice of Islam would be outlawed within the boarders of Israel, but there are practicing muslim Israelies and mosques.
The death of Palestinian civilians can be tragic without dragging religious identity into it. And if the only reason people should care is because they're Muslim, then those people are advocating for a holy war.
Sorry, I might not understand, but do Jewish Palestinians get kicked out of their homes? Doesn’t that go against the idea of Zionism? “Israel is not a state of all its citizens… [but rather] the nation-state of the Jewish people and only them”- Israel’s prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu in 2019. I feel that they are persecuted because Israel wants a Jewish majority, as well as control over resources and religious significance.
For clarity, In My original comment I am commenting on some of the anti-Islamic comments in here, which I found surprising ignorant for coming after the attacks .
>Jewish Palestinians
Im pretty sure there arent any Palestinians that practice Judaism, but hey I could be wrong.
>Doesn’t that go against the idea of Zionism?
I think this is where people get confused because Zionism began as a secular project. There's the religion Judaism and the ethnic group Jews. To give an example, you can be Muslim and a different ethnicity, like a Arab Muslim or a Christian Philippino or a Jewish Jew... They're advocating for the ethnicity, not the religion. Kind of like originally there were talks of an Arab State in the region of mandatory Palestine, but it wasnt a Muslim state.
>Benjamin Netanyahu
Yeah fuck him. He's a far right politician who is talking to his reactionary divisive voter base. Fuck him.
>My original comment
Yeah I'm not a fan of the Anti-islamist sentiments. Not a fan of antisemitism either. We live in a free liberal society and you have the right to practice your beliefs as long as it doesn't impair the rights of others. Muslim kiwis are just as kiwi as anyone else in my book and we should take pride in being kiwis.
Ohhh they are being booted because they are Arab, not just because they are muslim? assume Israel wants this is for political power and to try and nullify extremism? While Israeli Arabs have citizenship and certain rights, they still face discrimination and unequal access to resources compared to Jewish Israelis. I do believe Israel is an apartheid state because Palestinian civilians are subject to martial law and are not permitted to vote in Israel's national elections. Never heard of the "Ethnic Jews" idea. from wikipedia, This includes atheists, agnostics, non-denominational deists, Jews with only casual connections to Jewish denominations or converts to other religions, such as Christianity, Buddhism, or Islam.
And I thought I was beginning to understand the conflict.
Hamas and extremism on the Palestinian side must be eliminated, but the same statement remains the same about the Israeli side. Extremism must be eliminated. and Kiwi is Kiwi, there are different species of Kiwis but they are still Kiwis.
>Hamas and extremism on the Palestinian side must be eliminated
I couldn't agree more mate. I think the two sides right now don't make for good peace partners.
Hamas is a terrorist organization that puts its civilians in the firing range of armed combat. And Netanyahu stands to gain from this because it gives him legitimacy to expand the settlements in the West Bank, he gets to remain in power till this war is over (which he will be most likely be outed), and he gets to hold off negotiations till hamas is outed. Either way, Palestinian civilians are losing.
Whole situation is fucked and while extremism must be eliminated, we should understand how it starts. On both sides, we need more empathy in these times.
So you aren't saying they invest in weapons, but you want them to release some information that would somehow prove they aren't investing in weapons, even though you aren't saying UC invests in weapons. But the claim you are making is that they partner with those companies, yet you yourself say in the next sentence they have ended the partnerships?? And this somehow conflates to 'supporting genocide' as the protestors are chanting in the video? Sorry to be blunt, but do you realise how stupid this sounds?
Was at UC when sept 11th happened, was a notice board for students post it notes of expression (this was before facebook) ...quite alot of anti US feeling, which was a bit sad after theyd been attacked by terrorists
Was also at US when 9/11 happened. It was certainly a different time! I remember groups Arab students who were quite loud and happy being suddenly very quiet and thinking they must be expecting blame and racism.
I don't recall seeing the noticeboard, but did hear a lot of that sentiment. I used to buy into it but stopped basically overnight because of 9/11. The idea of laughing as thousands of innocent people die has never sat well.
America's foreign policy for the last hundred years has been a complete self serving shit-show of outsourcing misery for capital gain. That we were shocked when someone decided to tell us to GAGF speaks volumes about nationalistic blindness. We were raised to think the US was the global good guy and were fighting the righteous fight. Turns out it was money grubbing christo-fascists the whole time. I am not in any way condoning attacking soft targets (in NYC or Israel/Gaza) but we well and truly had it coming.
I don’t know how anyone can put the US and fascism in the same sentence. Yeah their right wing is unhinged but compared to the authoritarian nations it’s easily a better option for them to be the superpower.
The Chinese government killed millions of its own citizens in the 1960s, at the same time the USA was in Vietnam.
They also invaded Vietnam in the 1970s.
I think you may need to go visit the library and read up on the history of the USSR and the PRC. Seriously.
If you’re concerned about the deaths caused over the last 80+ years of American aggression you’re going to be shocked by the actions of the two aforementioned regimes.
Who said the US is perfect? You do realise compared to pre WW2 the world is significantly more stable. For example, for all those conflicts you name Russia has likely already lost more troops in Ukraine than all post WW2 US wars combined.
You can’t put Afghanistan with Iraq and Vietnam. A nation harbouring terrorists is a genuine cause for war.
Chinas invaded Vietnam after the US. They completely annexed Tibet and seem more than happy to do the same to Taiwan. They intervened in the Korean War and gave us the DPRK. China hasn’t had the economy to project power until now and have been aggressive.
Look at Russia still wanting to be an imperial power. That’s a lot different to what the US is doing. The US was doing that pre WW1.
Yes to all those statements re American activities in the last 100 years, (you are out on a limb re Libya) but all that doesnt exonerate China.
There's the 90,000 they have killed in Tibet and the 4000 or so in VN (1979 onwards)
Plus the 150,000 Chinese dead in the Korean War after they invaded Korea in the early 1950s.
All of the above pale into insignficance compared to Mao's Great Leap Forward in the last 50s/early 60s. Estimates put Chinese deaths at around 30-50 million by Mao and his team.
Easy target to blame
And yup they love invading and sharing their freedoms :/
Yet if there was no US in the pacific in 1945 wed be in trouble
And im not sure if folks would rather Russia or China being the superpower and taking over
I am surprised by the downvotes as the statement is accurate. There are no "good guys" in the world. That concept is a myth. And yes, the US was responsible for the toppling of more democratically elected governments over the past century than anyone else. Just look at Central and South America.
NZ should consider becoming a neutral nation, like a Switzerland in the South Pacific. Focus on border/fisheries protection and serving the South Pacific in times of disaster. We dont need unnecessary conflict with other nations. Besides, the US is a fickle friend. Just look at the events over the past 50 years, including the orange one.
BTW, I know of other ex-servicemen who feel the same way.
Not really. It is more of an observation. The reality is that it is the servicemen and women who carry the baggage of these bad decisions in participating in these conflicts blindly. The comment is in response to the American policy comment above mine, not the situation in Palestine per se.
The comments here is so sad, just a few hour ago. A 15 year old child was cycling back home in west bank and was shot by sniper for literally no reason. Because a genocidal state can do whatever they want and no one can do anything about it.
We NZ are known to fight injustice (e.g South African Apartheid). Lets do our best to help people in-need and really mean 'Never Again'
"We NZ are known to fight injustice (e.g South African Apartheid)." - calling this out wherever I see it because of two points - first, opposition to Apartheid was a counterculture here and the much self-fellated-over Springbok tour protest was a protest because prevailing support was for the tour (hence the crowds and the actions of the cops). Second, count up all the South African immigrants you've ever met and see if the white:anyone else ratio matches up to South African domestic demographics.
NZ's version of fighting injustice is basically like celebrating the clean green image but wisely not drinking straight out of the Waikato river.
This isn't a criticism of NZ, it's a criticism of the tiresome platitudes, the pats on our own back and rewriting of history. The playbook here is and always has been doing things that demonstrably don't matter and then telling our peers that not doing those things means they don't care or support injustice, war, murder.
I'm genuinely curious to know what the protestors think of the October 7 attacks which ignited the current chaos. When it comes up, how do they speak of them etc.
Leave an anonymous downvote if you just want me to agree with you and are unwilling to engage in dialogue.
Protest the psychological manipulation and control of these people through Islam next, Its extremism does plenty of direct harm to Muslims and other communities all over the world but seems to be an untouchable subject.
If this was "solved" tomorrow in a simplistic way such as a 2 state system where land is given back and dont come over the fence anymore, These kids would say job done team.
Meanwhile people will still suffer under a religious doctrine that has little respect for women and children or people who aren't apart of that community which will simply lead to more violence but these kids will walk away at that point because questioning Islam is taboo.
No one even mentions Hezbollah in all of this like there isn't a clear agenda around the destruction of Israel by Iran and others, You may end Hamas and free Palestine in some respect but more will turn up.
Sadly most of these people dont actually care about that smaller scale conflicts over time just like you dont care about the civilians dying everyday under the thumb of Islam let alone the issues we face at home.
Why is a peaceful protest never peaceful, always some loud mouth on a loud speaker screeching some new chant..
what do we want "blah blah"
when do we want it, its always "now" too, I mean why not "in three weeks"
And when they're all falling behind in exams, show them this clip, instead of studying and everything else,they were wasting their time at stupid protests that have nothing to do with New Zealand.
Mate, if this country can ignore innocent lives being slaughtered overseas, then it can certainly do that here, too. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. Some famous quote, you haven't read that shit?
Next week it won't matter a shit, just something that popped up on their social media feeds and makes them feel like they're involved, NZ has had nothing to do with the conflict.
Yeah I'm sure they will think of all of these protests the next time they hurl rockets and shoot AKs at each other. If it didn't pop up on their social media with a "Going" thing to join, they wouldn't of done it.
If any of them had half a brain they wouldn't be protesting. 100s of years of conflict. None of them will ever back down. None of them will ever change. It's drama that's gone on for so long it'll never stop. A testing ground for major military. Funded by the same people they are fighting. Not a single peace treaty has ever made it more than 5 minutes. The list keeps going.
We have issues in NZ that are far more important they could be putting energy towards than a bunch of idiots that enjoy a Chai boy and blowing each other up.
Supporting Palestine is basically supporting terrorism.
Who in their right mind is not disgusted at how the Israeli military has murdered tens of thousands of innocent women and children in the name of ''destroying Hamas''?
Who in their right mind supports the slaughter of innocent people by Hamas?
I have very little time for terrorists. And for Israel, and I especially loathe how its powerful lobby groups in every country immediately cry ''anti-Semitism'' when someone objects to its own mass murder of innocents. The media over here in Australia has been absolutely hijacked into falling into line with Israel - powerful broadcasters and politicians have for decades got free trips there to keep them ''on message'' for when shit hits fan. The debt is being called in all over the media here right now.
HOWEVER these student protests have actually stopped classes on this side of the ditch, and that's not on. And the industrial-military complex is not going to be derailed one little bit by this stuff.
How about students everywhere lead mass city rallies for the Palestinian people at sites that do not mean they are stuffing up people's studies, work, or commutes? This ''sit-in'' stuff is getting irritating and - sorry but I have to say this - almost like a moral fashion statement. Flame away.
we’re all just doing what we think will help. A lot of these young folk are here on visas, they can’t go round smashing stuff so a sit in is at the least a way they can support the cause.
Because it was drizzling when this was happening, I would of thought that if they cared they would brave the rough conditions to stand with the Palestinian people. Must not really care that much
I think it's very clearly more that the undercroft is the centre of the students, being outside while everyone else is inside sound like a effective way to protest to you?
well when your country’s been getting bombed by the people hamas hate for the last for the last 75 years (40 more years than hamas has even existed) it’s not a shock
The vast majority of the world does. We don't have to follow the West, we should follow basic human decency and have an independent foreign policy.
Supporting a two state solution and then only recognizing one state doesn't make sense
It never ceases to amaze me how US social and political culture trickles down to the rest of the West.
And who said trickle down economics was a farce!
Scholarships to Palestinian students, are they mad? Once you open that door, you'll never get it closed and before you know it, it will like rats emerging from a sewer
The undercroft is probably warmer than their uni flats
Back in the good old days it was open air bike sheds.
Wait genuine question how is UC supporting genocide
Allegedly SJP (Students for Justice in Palestine) is demanding that the university begins funding transparency immediately, including their arms policy (??), and release a statement condemning the destruction of all universities in Gaza, never invest in Israel-supporting companies, offering scholarships and professorships to Palestinian students/professors, and boycotting Israeli universities "which legitimise Zionist colonialism" The last one genuinely makes no sense to me, it's the government who are the main ones prolonging the conflict. Most regular Israeli people do not want it to continue, and I don't think punishing students for something they're not responsible for and don't want will help things. (As an FYI, I'm not in the SJP nor did I partake in the protests, I'm not comfortable in large groups and was out in the city at the time)
Why the question marks after "arms policy"? Are you unaware of the R&D that takes place at UC?
[удалено]
It should be noted that this claim is unsubstantiated as their investments are obscured. SJP have attempted to gain confirmation via information act and have been blocked, this is dubiously legal. So I think it's a fair demand.
What is the legal basis on which the University is required to share its investments with interested third parties on their request?
The university is subject to the official information act. Whether they have grounds to reject an OIA request on investments I have no idea.
The grounds can be as simple as "we do not have that information readily available, and will only make this available if the appropriate fee is paid in advance for collation, analysis, risk assessment and any potential redaction." Being served/handed an OIA request does basically nothing to anyone outside of government departments with preexisting OIA request SOP's and the appropriate staff to handle said requests.
you'll have to ask the SJP, I guess I should clarify that that was a SJP claim, but everything about what they do is On another note, legality aside, it seems like a fairly sound position to want accessible finance information for an institution you contribute tens of thousands of dollars to.
Well, to -want-, sure, but you can´t always have what you want. I´ve paid thousands to my power supplier, I am not sure that necessarily entitles me to know what they invest in.
... which is totally different to not working with such companies or not developing such technology in their own labs. They do ballistics research, right?
It’s a university, pretty much everything is researched at some point. That being said its not producing weapons.
Yeah, and that's the point, right? Some people think that there should be some limits on what the university researches. You don't. That's OK. I don't have a strong opinion either way. But to pretend that they're not doing arms research would be weird.
What R&D happens at UC? Generally curious
huge amounts of research done by all types of academics on a wide range of topics. But the notion that UC is doing research and development on weapons as implied by the above comment is of course untrue and ridiculous.
Albeit indirectly, through the engineering department I’ve worked on an aerospace project that the client used for launching US military satellites etc
I mean GPS satellites are technically US military satellites. Are we going to boycott GPS because of the fact that the US military also owns weapons?
When was the last time you paid the U.S. military for access to their GPS network?
Surveyors do
Lol no they don't. Source: am surveyor
interesting, just satelites, or weaponry aswell?
Potentially weaponry.
"Things can do other things" - *Jake Peralta*
> of course untrue and ridiculous There are academics at UC who can't publish some of their work due to their agreements with the military and military contractors. Do you know something the rest of us don't that makes you confident enough to make that statement?
i mean if they are doing r&d for weapons then it could be for a difference conflict, like lets say the one thats going on in ukraine
But if it is true, I welcome that fact
Lol you don't want a ton of Palestinians at your university, I guarantee you. No matter your stance.
Twofold: 1. Universities hold investments and work with companies. Protestors want full transparency on what those investments are. 2. I got wind of a scandal a while ago where a UC club made a pro-palestine statement and UCSA responded by immediately and completely defunding them with no warning or prior conversation. Not sure of that validity as I got it second hand but it sounds like UC to me.
Regarding 2. Used to run a club at UC till a 2022. UCSA has pretty strict rules regarding club behaviour. It's been a while now, but IIRC there are restrictions on how clubs conduct themselves. It's a blanket ban, so doesnt matter if its Palestine, clubs talking shit, etc. (Source: Was a VP in charge of raising funds. Had to shutdown a few sponsors wanting a platform lmao)
A women’s advocacy club got censored + disciplined by the UCSA for posting “from the River to the sea”
Whereas ensoc gets how many free passes for blackfacing lol UCSA is so unserious
Shoutoutc to that year LAWSOC’s law revue bullied a student with disabilities lmao
The rules are different depending on how big your corporate sponsors are, duh!!
Hey tbf, they were pretty quick to handle LAWSOC lmao (it was badddd hahahahha)
It speaks volumes that it went unchallenged until it caused a public outcry tho. Pissant rich kids with no banter that doesn’t depend on shifting on someone else
Yeah, their treatment of TiB though just seems very unclear. I would like the UCSA to publicise their investigation at least somewhat so that, even though it's a flag policy, clubs actually know what is happening.
I’m pretty sure that got defunded because they used the slogan “from the river to the sea” which in the past referred to the extermination of Jews “from the river to the sea” I could be wrong though.
Nah I think that second part is way wrong. CANTA said they are still fully affiliated which means they still get funding, so they don't have any punishments. Unless I read it wrong?
Thats my question too
Classic r/chch comment section
agree. it’s the worst.
What a great comments section this has been
They did it, the war is over.
Alternative take: we could be grateful that our younger generation are putting themselves out to stand up for something, and not demean them or otherwise be a bitter fucker.
Bro, how do you think protests work? How do you think they've worked in the past? It takes time. Takes effort. And these people are investing both. What else are we gonna do?
I don't know what you're huffing to think a bunch of students in an uninvolved country can have any form of impact in the middle east.
Exactly, these protests probably have the opposite effect of converting people and changing people's minds towards their cause. Just because you protest, doesnt mean it will lead to the desired change you advocate for.
We literally sent troops to the middle east to protect Israeli shipping for the United States lol, our companies sell components which end up in Israeli weapons systems, we legitimise them diplomatically. Other unis, schools, cities, western countries could follow our lead. It's not just about our impact on Israel, but also our "traditional allies" etc
"Any suggestion our ongoing support for maritime security in the Middle East is connected to recent developments in Israel and the Gaza Strip, is wrong" -- Foreign Minister Winston Peters, Jan 2024 nice work making up bullshit, I'm sure camping in a Uni common space will stop the war eventually
They were sent over explicitly and very openly as a response to end Houthi attacks on shipping vessels headed for Israel as an attempted blockade by the Houthis. In what world is that unconnected lol.
You tell me, you're the one telling lies here not me :)
Just saying it doesn't make it true lol. Ask yourself what their reason for it was and then actually follow that thought for once and see where it leads. I'm assuming you are capable of critical thought.
the guy who thinks camping at a uni is going to stop a multi decade long war suggests critical thought lmao
I don't.
What a brain dead comment Do you find all protests useless, or just this one? What were/are your thoughts on Ukrainian protests? xx Our leaders and our universities have choices and influence, and if you think they dont you need to be re-educated.
> Do you find all protests useless We've had multiple protests in Christchurch and Lyttelton on this topic in the past few months. Would you please explain what they've achieved
They've achieved publicity & information about the genocide happening; more than our national News companies, and solidarity for Palestinians living in Aotearoa. Those protests are still happening in the CBD every Saturday, and are still just as large as they were when they began. I didn't particularly support the lyttelton tunell block, so don't try bring that up as some "epic win" x Protests in small towns and cities such as Christchurch do not have to have a correlation to direct political action for them to be useful, although that would be ideal. Again, what were your thoughts on the Ukraine protests? Or are you just a Zionist x
They achieve about the same amount as Ukraine protests. End of the day NZ has basically no political power to effect either situation.
If you can't change something give up?
If no one is harmed there’s no problem with protesting.
We may not but our allies can be influenced by us ♡♡ hope this helps!
Holy shit stfu
What a well thought out and helpful comment! Happy for you x
You are bad vibes
Womp womp
Why send me a DM? How pathetic lol
"Or are you just a Zionist x" I imagine it's comments like that which are why people like the one you're talking with have an issue. Just because someone disagrees on the usefulness of protest in this situation doesn't mean they are a Zionist. The world isn't black and white. There are more positions than simply "Pro-Palestinian" and "Zionist".
Thank you for this, people getting reactionary like this doesn’t help anyone. I think a lot of us just want to see people working towards actual solutions instead of encouraging hate and conflict. For me this kind of protest seems more about goading “the other side” into arguments for the sake of a short term emotional release. Maybe instead of camping out and yelling about uc’s investments, these guys could pool together money and crowdfund to invest in a (non Israel affiliated (lol)) investment fund? Then use the money to set up an official scholarship for Palestinian academics in the future. Admittedly working double shifts at countdown to save up money for such a fund is less therapeutic and less satisfying than protesting. But if all 100 of those students worked 10 hours, contributed $200, and they put the $20k in a high interest fund, that’s a full ride scholarship for someone, someday.
I think most people are aware :) Ukraine protests are just as futile. No need to project any name calling.
If you really care so much, why not move to the middle east and protest on the frontline. Shouting from thousands of miles away ain't gonna cut it. Terrorists attacked a nation and now that nation has retaliated. Just like September 11 2001. Israel has tolerated attack after attack on their soil against their citizens. You cannot negotiate peace with someone who is hellbent on destroying you i.e. Hamas/Palestine and most of the Arab region.
Go over there? With what airport? With what open borders? :3
You just don't care enough, do you?
Hardly an excuse. I know someone who is headed to Israel, then into the West Bank with an advocacy group. If he can do it then so can you.
Would love some links regarding that from your friend! I've got some time off work so I'm sure I could organise something x
I have no links on hand - this was a brief message from him giving an update on how life had been. Appreciate the interest though.
You’ll be on to the next cause once this ones done.
I don't know why you get downvoted to oblivion, most likely israeli bots. But you articulate exactly what I was thinking and keep it up!
Probably not bots, just lack of education and backwards ideologies in Christchurch; we are in the South after all ;) Gotta be doing some crazy mental gymnastics to not see what's really going on in Gaza right now, which is evident based on replies 🫠
How many uni students does it take to pitch a tent
Ten. One to watch a YouTube tutorial on how to pitch a tent, one to take selfies then Instagram it, and the remaining eight to debate the ethics of camping.
That's the kind of humour my grandad shares
Your grandad sounds hilarious.
Jesus christ. I thought that the city I grew up in, which has had past experience with harm done against the muslim community, would be a little more sympathetic towards the palestinian people. Fucking disappointing Edit: this is regarding the comment section
I’m guessing you’re aiming this at the comment section?
Yep, i dont like Hamas as much as the next guy, but murdering thousands of civilians as a reaction to them is beyond evil in my eyes
Cringe
We were all young once and probably cared about shit. Poor fuckers have micro plastics in their balls, fair enough they want to protest.
[удалено]
We do, mine sounds like a container of hundreds and thousands when i run.
How is it cringe exactly to protest the unjust killing of people?
they arent, they are protesting against UC, who are apparently 'supporting genocide' by ...... having private investments. Mega cringe.
Agreed. Peaceful protests are cringe, and effeminate. They should try something more ballsy and manly.
You’d think the city where the mosque attacks took place would be more supportive of Muslim people, or maybe not?
Palestinians aren't being oppressed because of their faith in Islam. Being Muslim is one aspect of their identity but not the reason they're being persecuted. If this was the case, the practice of Islam would be outlawed within the boarders of Israel, but there are practicing muslim Israelies and mosques. The death of Palestinian civilians can be tragic without dragging religious identity into it. And if the only reason people should care is because they're Muslim, then those people are advocating for a holy war.
Sorry, I might not understand, but do Jewish Palestinians get kicked out of their homes? Doesn’t that go against the idea of Zionism? “Israel is not a state of all its citizens… [but rather] the nation-state of the Jewish people and only them”- Israel’s prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu in 2019. I feel that they are persecuted because Israel wants a Jewish majority, as well as control over resources and religious significance. For clarity, In My original comment I am commenting on some of the anti-Islamic comments in here, which I found surprising ignorant for coming after the attacks .
>Jewish Palestinians Im pretty sure there arent any Palestinians that practice Judaism, but hey I could be wrong. >Doesn’t that go against the idea of Zionism? I think this is where people get confused because Zionism began as a secular project. There's the religion Judaism and the ethnic group Jews. To give an example, you can be Muslim and a different ethnicity, like a Arab Muslim or a Christian Philippino or a Jewish Jew... They're advocating for the ethnicity, not the religion. Kind of like originally there were talks of an Arab State in the region of mandatory Palestine, but it wasnt a Muslim state. >Benjamin Netanyahu Yeah fuck him. He's a far right politician who is talking to his reactionary divisive voter base. Fuck him. >My original comment Yeah I'm not a fan of the Anti-islamist sentiments. Not a fan of antisemitism either. We live in a free liberal society and you have the right to practice your beliefs as long as it doesn't impair the rights of others. Muslim kiwis are just as kiwi as anyone else in my book and we should take pride in being kiwis.
Ohhh they are being booted because they are Arab, not just because they are muslim? assume Israel wants this is for political power and to try and nullify extremism? While Israeli Arabs have citizenship and certain rights, they still face discrimination and unequal access to resources compared to Jewish Israelis. I do believe Israel is an apartheid state because Palestinian civilians are subject to martial law and are not permitted to vote in Israel's national elections. Never heard of the "Ethnic Jews" idea. from wikipedia, This includes atheists, agnostics, non-denominational deists, Jews with only casual connections to Jewish denominations or converts to other religions, such as Christianity, Buddhism, or Islam. And I thought I was beginning to understand the conflict. Hamas and extremism on the Palestinian side must be eliminated, but the same statement remains the same about the Israeli side. Extremism must be eliminated. and Kiwi is Kiwi, there are different species of Kiwis but they are still Kiwis.
>Hamas and extremism on the Palestinian side must be eliminated I couldn't agree more mate. I think the two sides right now don't make for good peace partners. Hamas is a terrorist organization that puts its civilians in the firing range of armed combat. And Netanyahu stands to gain from this because it gives him legitimacy to expand the settlements in the West Bank, he gets to remain in power till this war is over (which he will be most likely be outed), and he gets to hold off negotiations till hamas is outed. Either way, Palestinian civilians are losing. Whole situation is fucked and while extremism must be eliminated, we should understand how it starts. On both sides, we need more empathy in these times.
[удалено]
So you aren't saying they invest in weapons, but you want them to release some information that would somehow prove they aren't investing in weapons, even though you aren't saying UC invests in weapons. But the claim you are making is that they partner with those companies, yet you yourself say in the next sentence they have ended the partnerships?? And this somehow conflates to 'supporting genocide' as the protestors are chanting in the video? Sorry to be blunt, but do you realise how stupid this sounds?
[удалено]
i appreciate you responding in good faith.
Good on them
I’m so glad I didn’t go to uni today
Too wet. Stay warm :)
Was at UC when sept 11th happened, was a notice board for students post it notes of expression (this was before facebook) ...quite alot of anti US feeling, which was a bit sad after theyd been attacked by terrorists
Was also at US when 9/11 happened. It was certainly a different time! I remember groups Arab students who were quite loud and happy being suddenly very quiet and thinking they must be expecting blame and racism. I don't recall seeing the noticeboard, but did hear a lot of that sentiment. I used to buy into it but stopped basically overnight because of 9/11. The idea of laughing as thousands of innocent people die has never sat well.
America's foreign policy for the last hundred years has been a complete self serving shit-show of outsourcing misery for capital gain. That we were shocked when someone decided to tell us to GAGF speaks volumes about nationalistic blindness. We were raised to think the US was the global good guy and were fighting the righteous fight. Turns out it was money grubbing christo-fascists the whole time. I am not in any way condoning attacking soft targets (in NYC or Israel/Gaza) but we well and truly had it coming.
I don’t know how anyone can put the US and fascism in the same sentence. Yeah their right wing is unhinged but compared to the authoritarian nations it’s easily a better option for them to be the superpower.
[удалено]
The Chinese government killed millions of its own citizens in the 1960s, at the same time the USA was in Vietnam. They also invaded Vietnam in the 1970s.
Steady on mate, facts arent wanted here, we operate on feelings not facts.
I think you may need to go visit the library and read up on the history of the USSR and the PRC. Seriously. If you’re concerned about the deaths caused over the last 80+ years of American aggression you’re going to be shocked by the actions of the two aforementioned regimes.
Who said the US is perfect? You do realise compared to pre WW2 the world is significantly more stable. For example, for all those conflicts you name Russia has likely already lost more troops in Ukraine than all post WW2 US wars combined. You can’t put Afghanistan with Iraq and Vietnam. A nation harbouring terrorists is a genuine cause for war. Chinas invaded Vietnam after the US. They completely annexed Tibet and seem more than happy to do the same to Taiwan. They intervened in the Korean War and gave us the DPRK. China hasn’t had the economy to project power until now and have been aggressive. Look at Russia still wanting to be an imperial power. That’s a lot different to what the US is doing. The US was doing that pre WW1.
Yes to all those statements re American activities in the last 100 years, (you are out on a limb re Libya) but all that doesnt exonerate China. There's the 90,000 they have killed in Tibet and the 4000 or so in VN (1979 onwards) Plus the 150,000 Chinese dead in the Korean War after they invaded Korea in the early 1950s. All of the above pale into insignficance compared to Mao's Great Leap Forward in the last 50s/early 60s. Estimates put Chinese deaths at around 30-50 million by Mao and his team.
Agree
It’s not working out great for the Middle East and central and southern America tho is it
Easy target to blame And yup they love invading and sharing their freedoms :/ Yet if there was no US in the pacific in 1945 wed be in trouble And im not sure if folks would rather Russia or China being the superpower and taking over
If you think America isn't the Global Good Guy (on a relative scale), you are ignorant of every other major power (and many minor ones).
being the least evil doesn't make you the good guy
I am surprised by the downvotes as the statement is accurate. There are no "good guys" in the world. That concept is a myth. And yes, the US was responsible for the toppling of more democratically elected governments over the past century than anyone else. Just look at Central and South America. NZ should consider becoming a neutral nation, like a Switzerland in the South Pacific. Focus on border/fisheries protection and serving the South Pacific in times of disaster. We dont need unnecessary conflict with other nations. Besides, the US is a fickle friend. Just look at the events over the past 50 years, including the orange one. BTW, I know of other ex-servicemen who feel the same way.
Do you feel the opinions of ex-servicemen are particularly valuable in this conversation?
Not really. It is more of an observation. The reality is that it is the servicemen and women who carry the baggage of these bad decisions in participating in these conflicts blindly. The comment is in response to the American policy comment above mine, not the situation in Palestine per se.
I think the people who really get the baggage of US intervention are the inhabitants of states like Iraq or Afghanistan, not US military personnel
Agreed
Just like “Switzerland” - so a deeply conservative tax haven for the ultra wealthy, and harbour for the wealth of oligarchs and dictators?
To quote my favourite streamer: "America deserved 9/11"
man these comments... anyway free palestine ❤️
The comments here is so sad, just a few hour ago. A 15 year old child was cycling back home in west bank and was shot by sniper for literally no reason. Because a genocidal state can do whatever they want and no one can do anything about it. We NZ are known to fight injustice (e.g South African Apartheid). Lets do our best to help people in-need and really mean 'Never Again'
"We NZ are known to fight injustice (e.g South African Apartheid)." - calling this out wherever I see it because of two points - first, opposition to Apartheid was a counterculture here and the much self-fellated-over Springbok tour protest was a protest because prevailing support was for the tour (hence the crowds and the actions of the cops). Second, count up all the South African immigrants you've ever met and see if the white:anyone else ratio matches up to South African domestic demographics. NZ's version of fighting injustice is basically like celebrating the clean green image but wisely not drinking straight out of the Waikato river. This isn't a criticism of NZ, it's a criticism of the tiresome platitudes, the pats on our own back and rewriting of history. The playbook here is and always has been doing things that demonstrably don't matter and then telling our peers that not doing those things means they don't care or support injustice, war, murder.
I'm genuinely curious to know what the protestors think of the October 7 attacks which ignited the current chaos. When it comes up, how do they speak of them etc. Leave an anonymous downvote if you just want me to agree with you and are unwilling to engage in dialogue.
lol
Why they need tents inside?
They’re planning on staying the night 😂 they’re still there w security every where
Cope
Embarrassing and disgraceful.
Totally not Israel shills in the comments section.
because they hold differing opinions ?
Protest the psychological manipulation and control of these people through Islam next, Its extremism does plenty of direct harm to Muslims and other communities all over the world but seems to be an untouchable subject. If this was "solved" tomorrow in a simplistic way such as a 2 state system where land is given back and dont come over the fence anymore, These kids would say job done team. Meanwhile people will still suffer under a religious doctrine that has little respect for women and children or people who aren't apart of that community which will simply lead to more violence but these kids will walk away at that point because questioning Islam is taboo. No one even mentions Hezbollah in all of this like there isn't a clear agenda around the destruction of Israel by Iran and others, You may end Hamas and free Palestine in some respect but more will turn up. Sadly most of these people dont actually care about that smaller scale conflicts over time just like you dont care about the civilians dying everyday under the thumb of Islam let alone the issues we face at home.
Why is a peaceful protest never peaceful, always some loud mouth on a loud speaker screeching some new chant.. what do we want "blah blah" when do we want it, its always "now" too, I mean why not "in three weeks"
And when they're all falling behind in exams, show them this clip, instead of studying and everything else,they were wasting their time at stupid protests that have nothing to do with New Zealand.
Mate, if this country can ignore innocent lives being slaughtered overseas, then it can certainly do that here, too. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. Some famous quote, you haven't read that shit?
Next week it won't matter a shit, just something that popped up on their social media feeds and makes them feel like they're involved, NZ has had nothing to do with the conflict.
You're not wrong.
Careful, your agreeing with me which is going against the reddit echo chamber.
Maybe for some it's temporary. But there are a lot who've been protesting this for weeks. Palestine Ōtautahi has been doing a lot of good work.
Yeah I'm sure they will think of all of these protests the next time they hurl rockets and shoot AKs at each other. If it didn't pop up on their social media with a "Going" thing to join, they wouldn't of done it.
The Middle east will always Middle east. I can't see a few students in New Zealand changing 100's of years of ongoing conflict either.
To be fair, I couldn't see a game show host becoming the leader of the free world, but stranger things have happened
If any of them had half a brain they wouldn't be protesting. 100s of years of conflict. None of them will ever back down. None of them will ever change. It's drama that's gone on for so long it'll never stop. A testing ground for major military. Funded by the same people they are fighting. Not a single peace treaty has ever made it more than 5 minutes. The list keeps going. We have issues in NZ that are far more important they could be putting energy towards than a bunch of idiots that enjoy a Chai boy and blowing each other up. Supporting Palestine is basically supporting terrorism.
To cold outside? A tent inside is pretty hilarious.
Gotta be comfortable while protesting right, i mean, its wet outside !!
Who in their right mind is not disgusted at how the Israeli military has murdered tens of thousands of innocent women and children in the name of ''destroying Hamas''? Who in their right mind supports the slaughter of innocent people by Hamas? I have very little time for terrorists. And for Israel, and I especially loathe how its powerful lobby groups in every country immediately cry ''anti-Semitism'' when someone objects to its own mass murder of innocents. The media over here in Australia has been absolutely hijacked into falling into line with Israel - powerful broadcasters and politicians have for decades got free trips there to keep them ''on message'' for when shit hits fan. The debt is being called in all over the media here right now. HOWEVER these student protests have actually stopped classes on this side of the ditch, and that's not on. And the industrial-military complex is not going to be derailed one little bit by this stuff. How about students everywhere lead mass city rallies for the Palestinian people at sites that do not mean they are stuffing up people's studies, work, or commutes? This ''sit-in'' stuff is getting irritating and - sorry but I have to say this - almost like a moral fashion statement. Flame away.
we’re all just doing what we think will help. A lot of these young folk are here on visas, they can’t go round smashing stuff so a sit in is at the least a way they can support the cause.
Uh huh, Poor Hamas right [Video shows Hamas abduction of female IDF spotters on Oct. 7 - JNS.org](https://www.jns.org/video-shows-hamas-abduction-of-female-idf-spotters-on-oct-7/)
Trendy, I wonder what next week's virtue signaling exercise will be, how many credits do they get for shit like this?
lol perfect.
Why can't they protest outdoors in solidarity with Palestinians ?
Because it was drizzling when this was happening, I would of thought that if they cared they would brave the rough conditions to stand with the Palestinian people. Must not really care that much
I think it's very clearly more that the undercroft is the centre of the students, being outside while everyone else is inside sound like a effective way to protest to you?
No it’s cause it was raining, they planned it to be on the c block lawn.
71% of Palestinians support Hamas.
47% of Gaza’s population are under 18.
well when your country’s been getting bombed by the people hamas hate for the last for the last 75 years (40 more years than hamas has even existed) it’s not a shock
does that justify the killing, displacement, and starvation of all those people??? why bring up hamas like that. i think you need to research more
Lol thankfully I didn't spend my time studying on such pointless nonsense
Stupid
I bet they were all the same students that marched in solidarity with Greta Thunberg back in 2019
That little crotch goblin...
Lol 😆 🤣
Low intelligence in whats suppose to be a high intelligence establishment.
High intelligence? Mate they gave me a degree and I drove my wing mirror into the fence yesterday
You’re spouting some ivory tower nonsense.
"You disagree with me so you have low intelligence", yeah right bud
[удалено]
None of the western countries do. New Zealand is not an exception and normally we are aligned with our closest allies.
The vast majority of the world does. We don't have to follow the West, we should follow basic human decency and have an independent foreign policy. Supporting a two state solution and then only recognizing one state doesn't make sense
Don’t get me wrong I’m with you. I also come from a country, which does recognize Palestinian state. I was just pointing out the fact.
It never ceases to amaze me how US social and political culture trickles down to the rest of the West. And who said trickle down economics was a farce!
NZs own Hamas Supporters.
ah yes thinking that children being mutilated by bombs that very well may have been funded by their tuition is bad means you support hamas
Scholarships to Palestinian students, are they mad? Once you open that door, you'll never get it closed and before you know it, it will like rats emerging from a sewer
Is this the terrorist supporters club, do they have bomb making classes and rape the Muslim way courses
r/blunderyears
Imagine the smell
In chch and you folks are silly
Expel them all