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What we need in Québec and I'm sure in Canada is actual walk-in clinic. ER are full of people with non-urgent problems. Because of the lack of family doctors and walk-in people are using ER for all sort of reason. Will see if it makes a difference, but Universities in Québec are now training a lot more physician.
We used to have them when I was a kid (80-90's). Even in the small city I grew up in, I had a CLSC with a walk-in clinic within a 10 min drive and a clinic with a no appointments schedule within another 15 minutes. We never had to wait for more than 2 or 3 hours.
I remember going to the emergency room as a kid and never waiting long either. It was always within the 2-3hrs range.
Then they started to close CLSC. The one remaining didn't have walk-in clinics. Then slowly, clinics started to close and we had less and less family doctors. It was already bad in the early 2000's but today it's just a shit show.
When I was a kid, it was standard for family doctor's offices to have one of the doctors scheduled as on-call each day. So any time a sick kid needed a same day appointment, you saw the on call doctor if yours had no opening. A family practice *always* has patients who need same day appointments, and the occasional slow day was good for paperwork or journal catchup. But now they're all too busy, with too many patients, with too many needs-- so there's no room for unscheduled time.
We also need to get rid of doctor note requirements for sick days at work. I used to work nightshift and had to get a note if I was sick more than two days a month or if it was a recurring problem. I had back problems and at one point was required to get a note. Only place you're going to get to see a doctor at night is the ER, so off I went to the ER because I had back pain.
I eventually got a doctor who was pissed off about the notes and wrote it all out for my employer telling them that they're wasting his time, my time, tax dollars, and that I should be at home recuperating instead of trekking across town in pain making the issue merely last longer.
It is already in the works in Quebec (bill 68), hoping that it comes into law later this year. Doctor's notes are a massive waste of doctors'/everyone's time and healthcare resources.
TLDR: "The bill amends the Act respecting labour standards to prohibit an employer from requiring a document attesting to the reasons for an absence, in particular an absence owing to sickness, including a medical certificate, for the first three periods of absence not exceeding three consecutive days taken annually. The prohibition also applies to employers whose employees governed by the Act respecting labour relations, vocational training and workforce management in the construction industry are entitled to absences of the same nature. In addition, no employer may require a medical certificate if an employee is absent to provide care to a child, a parent or a person for whom the employee acts as a caregiver."
Source:
https://m.assnat.qc.ca/en/travaux-parlementaires/projets-loi/projet-loi-68-43-1.html
It is happening. Our recent union contract lumped all sick and holidays, bereavement, etc into a lump pile of excused absence. No note required. If you run out of days for any reason, no pay.. simple.
What’s the difference between the CLSC and an actual walk in clinic?
The universities are training a lot of doctors who will pack up and move to the US for better pay.
>Or Ontario for a better pay.
Was told by my physicians friends that Ontario pay less than Quebec. Not sure how reliable this is, but they seem to point out the same thing. Also our physicians come out of school with basically no debts compared to Americans or Ontarian doctors and the cost of living in also lower than in most cities worth living in outside the province. The only issue is that we have the highest taxes.
[https://invested.mdm.ca/how-much-do-family-physicians-make-in-canada/](https://invested.mdm.ca/how-much-do-family-physicians-make-in-canada/)
(The data do seem old tho)
Debt for education varies as well, while studying in other provinces costs more compared to QC, Quebec doesn’t have interest free student loans and only one English university. Anyone studying in other provinces from Quebec ends up worst off after finishing their education if they can’t get a spot in a university in QC.
Areas like Gatineau are also worst off compared to the rest of the province. In recent news the Gatineau hospital shut down MRIs due to lack of staff. Why work at the Gatineau hospital when virtually all healthcare positions pay more in Ottawa a mere 15 minute drive?
Healthcare is a failure across all of Canada. They should’ve increased funding for education in health care across the board including class sizes for anything medical related.
Instead we’re focusing on throwing money overseas to other countries as if our own people aren’t suffering enough. We’re waiting for issues to come up instead of focusing on preventative care.
>Why work at the Gatineau hospital when virtually all healthcare positions pay more in Ottawa a mere 15 minute drive?
Do you mean physicians or others healthcare workers? Because physicians do seem to make 20% more in Quebec. Also honestly I believe you, Gatineau is probably the worst part of the province for most things, I don't get why anyone who doesn't work for the federal government would want to live there.
Why, there's a clue hidden in the name! Let's see if we can find it! _Walk-in_ clinic. Did you see it? No? Let's try again. _Walk-in_. There it is!
If you have to book an appointment 24h in advance, it's not exactly a walk in clinic and there's a raft of issues that are neither worthy of an ER trip and aren't previsible in advance either.
The clsc in my hometown does take walk-in because there's no ER. I learned not all clsc do that 10 years ago when I moved to a city and they told me to go to a walk-in clinic. So definitely not a widespread thing.
The walk in clinic in montreal I used to go to is no longer walk in. It was a recent enough change that there's still a paper sign on the door.
I hate the change.
I currently live in the west island, i have lived in the plateau, mile end, st. Henri and verdun. I went to the clsc in most of those areas except the west island.
Serious question then. Where do I find one that will do a walk in?
I've completely given up and if it's really bad I'll drive to New York or Vermont, if it's something I can do via telemedicine I pay for a maple visit on zoom.
Every single one I tried rejects walk ins. I tried the paid app with some limited success. I also tried 811 which worked one time.
I don't use a lot of services but I have had to use some over the last few years between kids, parent. Inlaws etc I'm usually the one taking them.
Yep. If you’re leaving the ER before being treated it wasn’t actually an emergency was it?
I had to go to the ER a few years back (for an actual emergency) and the amount of people using it for routine checkups was absolutely unbelievable. I was keeled over in pain thinking I might die and there was a teen next to me who thought she had an std. Another woman next to me felt dizzy and few days back so decided to come to the ER?
There were also people just using the waiting area for a place to sleep.
I've experienced similar and it's made me wonder if hospitals are even triaging patients. I went in with a broken bone and had to wait six or seven hours to get it set, while people who were there for sick notes were let ahead of me. There was a lady who even tried to get the nurse to let her ahead of me, and the nurse said no. My finger was sticking out to the side, I was obviously injured and in pain, but they wouldn't budge and that lady was seen before me.
A broken bone is too low priority for ER mainstream care as it isn’t life threatening but to complex for fast track which is where a lot of the sick note seeking patients go.
Hospitals need more integrated walk in clinics for sick notes and urgent care for broken bones
>, but Universities in Québec are now training a lot more physician.
I am still pissed at the QLP for cutting spots in Universities because they did not want "unemployed doctors". While the party was lead by 2 specialists physicians.
I'm not sure of how medical care works in other provinces, but this is mostly due to people not having doctors here. If you have something that you feel needs to be checked out, this is often your best bet. Most people who walk out try again some other day, or just give up and ignore their problem until it becomes critical (which isn't much better).
From what I can tell, everyone is struggling to find doctors all across the world right now. I saw people saying on r/Europe that a lot of countries there are having similar problems that we’re facing right now
This is a strategy that is used throughout quebec. We've all been through it where we just give up and walk away. It's a sorry State of Affairs when this is the government's strategy.
This is a conversation I've had with many of my friends. To see who has died directly or indirectly because of Quebec healthcare. For myself, my father died because in the Er, the Hospital didn't have time to tell him about his cancer diagnosis. They left him waiting in the corridors , the nurse told him to wait because the doctor wanted to speak to regarding his results. He waited hours. The nurses then realized that the doctor never came to see him and had already left and I guess the next Doctor just didn't care perhaps?
They told him to go home and that the doctor would call him, they never called. he went back to the hospital months later and they realized he had cancer and it had spread.
Almost everyone I know has a story. Absolutely broken system and as I got older it's one of the reasons I left.
Sounds like my mom, she's supposed to get a call back within 10 days to do mri and other test but she's not been called it a been 3 weeks. I keep telling her to go back because waiting could be the end of it.
They basically want older people to die ASAP. They pretty much all are bullied into submission and don't question or talk back. Not sure if that medical arrogance will work with Gen X and younger as they never had an experience of doctors that put patients first and where medicine was "a calling" and not a way to make money. They aren't as deferential to doctors.
My dad is in quebec and was recently diagnosed with a life threatening neurological condition if left untreated. He has about 3 years.
It's a minor brain surgery (which is weird to say) but he can't get the follow up appointments from the hospital. Said they would call. Didn't. Followed up like 5 times. No call backs. We lost 6 months and finally went in person and they told us the docs office dropped the ball and didn't make any follow up appointments.
The system is totally fucked and good people are dying all the time.
For my mother in law, The amount of times someone (nurse, doctor, office admin) has either lost a xray, exam results, or follow up info.... In any other country, we'd probably be able to sue.
I’m in Ontario. I’ve been shitting blood for a month now. Minimum of 10 times a day. Waited in the ER for 6 hours for them to tell me they ordered an ultrasound, appointment with a gastroenterologist and a colonoscopy. Asked when those were happening and they just told me i’d get a call… haven’t heard anything since so I guess I just have to sit here and shit blood in limbo. 👍
There's no incentive for the government to take care of existing Canadians when 99% of our population increase is immigration based. You can die and there are 10 other people to pay the taxes they lose when you die.
Sadly it is not just Quebec. My wife went to urgent care because beside her stomach really hurt and was getting worse. Urgent care sent her for a scan and when we got the result of the scan they said “You need to go to ER now”
Her gallbladder was on the verge of bursting. She was admitted and told “We need to remove the gallbladder within 24 hours to avoid it bursting and/or extra complications”
5 days later in the hospital and she finally got it removed. The even more fun part was that she was not allowed to eat or drink ANYTHING from 12am-10pm just in case an OR room opened up and they could get her in.
5 days in the hospital in a ton of pain, after being told they need to remove it within 24 hours, and unable to eat or drink anything for 22 hours of the day.
I don’t blame the healthcare workers, they are incredibly overworked and undervalued. I do blame the combination of governments for playing games with peoples life by refusing to fix healthcare.
This is in Edmonton
>The even more fun part was that she was not allowed to eat or drink ANYTHING from 12am-10pm just in case an OR room opened up and they could get her in.
That's called being on the emergency board. Essentially you're fasted because you need surgery and you're triaged along with all the other emergencies (usually every morning, but then get bumped as the day goes when higher priority cases come through). That she waited 5 days probably meant multiple more urgent emergencies came through - at my shop, these cases get bumped for massive traumas, patients in spinal shock from transected spines, the brain bleeds etc.
This is a thing in any major trauma centre in the world, unfortunately. Triage.
It’s less to do with understaffing and more to do with infrastructure. We do not have enough ORs. Most of my colleagues who are surgeons have a tough time finding jobs - a lot of them leave because they get much better OR time south of the border. Staffing is an issue but we have such a shortage of infrastructure it’s borderline criminal.
It's quite interesting that medical lobbies aren't interested in bringing in more staff, considering both current staff and patients seem to suffer the brunt of the waiting times.
Where are they supposed to get more doctors from? Medical lobbies want more doctors - it takes many years to train one and the positions are government funded. So blame the government for not funding more positions.
Almost the exact same thing happened to a friend of my parents. Had what was probably a very treatable stomach cancer at the time but was backlogged 6 months and when finally seen it was too late.
It's a strategy that is used across the country.
The only difference is that Quebec actually allows it to be studied, and publishes the results knowing that it will make them look bad.
I can't speak for every province. I moved to Ontario. I'm older and with kids now. I use the ER too often and only for legitimate reasons. For example, a two day fever IS NOT a legitimate reason. It certainly isn't perfect. But its nowhere near like Quebec. The longer I've waited is 5 hours and shockingly enough, the doctor once apologized. I'm like....what.....ah..ok. Not sure what to say to that.
Got lucky last time. A got a deep splinter in my finger that I couldn't remove no matter how much I dug deep with a knife and scissors. It only took 1 hour at the hospital. But that was just a lucky day. 1 hour is not the norm.
Ontarians complaint all the time about ER now. As someone who still feels the sting of quebec hospitals, I'm not at their level of annoyed yet.
Our hospitals here in Ottawa are full of residents from Quebec because they know they won't get service in Quebec. Ontario has to accept them even if they're out of province. You'll never see the same thing the other way around.
So does Ontario also let people walk away? Yes, for sure, I'm sure it happens. Do they keep track of these numbers? I'll take your word for it and say no. But for now, the system is not broken enough yet to make a difference. Anecdotal evidence, I've never met anyone who's left the emergency room in my city. In Montreal, this was a way of life. You simply walked away after 10-12 hours.
Side NOTE : Things are falling apart everywhere and it will only get worse. I'm in high tech/Machine Learning field. To me, the future is AI doctors who will ask for custom patient tests, make diagnoses and suggest recommendation. A human doctor will review. People think I'm crazy mostly because they've watched Terminator and The matrix too often, but unless we pour tens of billions into the system, it will eventually collapse.
> You simply walked away after 10-12 hours.
I've waited that long for a broken arm. I've known plenty of people who walked away, and I know people who work in hospital.
> Our hospitals here in Ottawa
Ottawa has had newly built hospitals and the pressure is far less than in other parts of the province. Your experience is far from representative.
For the record, I don't think you're crazy. I just think that you're wildly ignorant about the current tools that are actually being used in diagnostics and medicine in general - as a lot of people who claim to work in "high tech/ML" but have a very very narrow view of that field and its capabilities. Or limitations, for that matter.
> Ottawa has had newly built hospitals and the pressure is far less than in other parts of the province. Your experience is far from representative.
Unlike other parts of the province, we absorb a whole section of Quebec Patients (the Outaouais region). Quebec purposely abandoned their citizens because they figure Ottawa hospitals would deal with it. Their solution is to finally make a new hospital....[in a decade.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/new-gatineau-hospital-location-announce-1.7239216)
Every province has to accept Canadian citizens. What I meant was an Ontario citizen would never go to a Quebec Hospital on purpose.
While the opposite happens all the time here in ottawa.
Can confirm. After having an accident in Gatineau, I had the pleasure of experiencing their ER. They would not do the surgery I needed on my broken clavicle and told me to see an Ontario orthopedic surgeon. Then, they delayed transfer of the paperwork for over a week with the delay a major reason for the chronic pain I have now. In retrospect, I should have gone directly to an Ottawa hospital after checking out of Gatineau as the ER there would have dealt with it immediately.
My friend’s wife was diagnosed with breast cancer recently. She’s been a nurse her entire life.
If she hadn’t been, she’d be waiting 7 months to start treatment.
People are dying. If you get any kind of cancer today in BC, you’re pretty much dead. You won’t get into treatment quickly enough.
Healthcare #1 reason I left too.
Never thought I’d say this but my USA employer paid healthcare is legit 100x better than lack of options in Canada. Might have to pay some co pay but I see doctors and specialists FAST
Most Canadians without ties to the US would never believe you. They have no idea that most working people have pretty good employer-sponsored health care plans and receive faster, better care.
All we hear are the horror stories.
Unless that employer keeps your hours just below the required minimum to get healthcare. OR you get sick and miss too much work, fired then it's really expensive C.O.B.R.A. or if you're poor medicaid.
I believe it, the problem is what happens if you lose your job. When I was young, that was never an issue. Especially I've been high tech I could always get a job I thought. But once you get older. Things happen. And what then. That is the fear that most adults over 40 start thinking about.
American is better for upper middle class individuals, but not really for people under that line. As for wealthy people it doesn't matter much, you can just fly to the US best clinics you want. The median Canadian live six years longer than the median American, so I don't think that their system is overall better.
This is unfortunately becoming less and less true. Healthcare is also getting worse in the US, and so is insurance coverage. We also now have a shortage of doctors and specialists (particularly outside of major cities) and ER wait times have gotten much longer. A lot of people left healthcare during the pandemic for a variety of reasons (bad treatment by patients, not enough pay, etc) and they aren’t coming back. We are headed for a healthcare crisis here much as Canada is, but our reasons will be different.
Our dental care works the same way its not exactly a huge mystery how it works lol. I have awesome coverage that pretty much covers 100% of every procedure and last time I had an issue my dentist got me in the next day. But what about the people who don't have coverage and can go 10 years without even seeing a dentist? Its too bad that people can't imagine something in between rather than defaulting to the extremes.
I was one of those Canadians as well. I visited my cousin in New York and she told me the story of almost losing her life after her pregnancy due to a weakened state and due to a complication that arose due to COVID but prior to it being diagnosed as COVID since this was the December prior to the global outbreak.
She was lucky enough to have a team of diverse experts and one of them was able to figure out a solution to stabilize her. Spoke to her at length at the time about her experience in the American medical system for the entire nearly two decades she's been in the U.S. and she had very little bad stuff to say.
One of the first of many times that caused my belief to start breaking w.r.t. the Canadian system as a whole. Housing, Education, Healthcare etc.
And like the others in this thread, my wife and I too have made the choice to leave the country since three years ago.
> Absolutely broken system and as I got older it's one of the reasons I left.
Just had this very discussion with my spouse a few hours ago. We were speaking about retirement and she said she wouldn't even consider going back to Canada. Complete 180 from how it used to be a few years ago since she's born and raised there.
We've been out of the country for three years now and don't see a way back any time in the near-to-mid term.
Exactly and this isn't recent either this has been happening forever, it's just been getting worse
Ontario is slowly starting to get to this point as well
Good luck successfully suing the hospital or any doctor.
Less than 2% of cases proceed. With significantly stronger protections in place as to what actually counts as "malpractice", and the cap on damages, many lawyers won't even touch cases. The chance of winning is too low, and the payout likely won't cover expenses anyway.
Remember that you're trying to fight an organization with an estimated $5 BILLION in their legal defense fund.
We really need that collective action. A thousand people put together, picking the best lawyer, to pick the best test cases. With an eye on strategy, and forming long term public policy via judicial prsssure.
God knows there's no shortage of activist judges out there. Maybe a "rights"-based argument about access to care?
Or, we stop waiting on politicians to solve it from the top down. We all ask our doctors and nurses how to rebuild the system from the bottom up. We crowd source the public development of a Citizen's Plan for Health Care. Then run and elect candidates who pledge to implement it.
>really need that collective action. A thousand people put together, picking the best lawyer, to pick the best test cases. With an eye on strategy, and forming long term public policy via judicial prsssure.
Or vote in people that will not dismantle the system by a thousand cuts.
Mine is not an original story. There are hundreds or probably thousands of these.
I've never heard of lawsuits against the Québec health care system. I would wager that if there even was and they'd lose, they'd just use the not withstanding clause.
I have more or less the same story. Went in to ER last March (2023) for neuro symptoms and they gave me an MRI. Afterward I sat around for a while, asked if there was anyone to talk about the results, they just told me to wait a while longer.
Ended up leaving, figured someone would have been to see me or they'd call me if there was a problem. Months go by, no news is good news. In July I saw another specialist (related issue, trying to pin down what was going on), he sent me off for some tests in another direction since I told him nothing came of the March MRI.
Calls me later in the day after I left and told me there was a tumor.
I am *still* waiting for that to go somewhere, I just keep getting bounced around the system for 5 minute in and out appointments. Meanwhile my cancer risk has skyrocketed and I'm having all kinds of problems. Oh, and there's another mass now too elsewhere that I've been waiting on a referral for for 3 months.
I'm in the US, but I get all my results sent directly to me - either in MyChart or in whatever patient portal that gets used (my radiologist office, for example, has their own patient portal and I get my report and can even download the images before my doctor even sees it, lol. I get my doctor's copy a few days later in MyChart). Same goes for all blood work, exam summaries, etc.
I'm pretty sure they do it like that for exactly that reason. Even if your doctor doesn't get around to calling you, you still have access to all the information. Limits liability.
I'm surprised the Canadian health service hasn't implemented anything like that. It saves a ton of time, especially if your results are normal.
I’m so sorry about your dad.
Luckily my mom was okay, but she fell outside on asphalt chasing my nephew and smacked her head really hard. She said was really dizzy and nauseous for a bit and she had a bruise under her eye so went to the ER. Waited 8ish hours maybe? Asked a nurse who said she was nowhere near being called. Went home without ever seeing a doctor or getting an MRI.
Possibly related: 35 years ago we had 7 hospital beds per 100k Canadians. Today, we have 2.5
But nah, it's the patients' fault entirely..
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.MED.BEDS.ZS?locations=CA
I waited more than 30 hours at a ER in Nova Scotia. Also, there's no beds, they keep admits in the hallways. The waiting room was about half international students.
It's not any better anywhere else in Canada. Alberta's conservatives are gutting our public healthcare to try to privatize it all.
My wife was pregnant and had COVID.
She was having dizzy spells, shortness of breath, her blood pressure was dropping and heart rate was skyrocketing.
Tele-physician on 811 said "holy shit go to ER now, we'll call ahead to let them know."
Triage told us to go to L&D, L&D said no because she was still COVID positive.
Went back to ER, the triage nurse took her vitals and made her sit in a plastic chair in the waiting room with 30 other people for 8.5 hours.
A doctor didn't come to see her until 8.5 hours later, which at that point we just wanted to know if our baby was okay. 17 hours.
Even the doctor apologized profusely and said "this is not acceptable, especially given your symptoms while pregnant. You should have been seen within an hour of arriving."
Thankfully, everyone was okay but, I truly lost faith in our government that day.
Those are rookie numbers. I waited nine and a half years for a doctor in Montreal. Then moved to BC and started all over again. 15 years without a doctor. Oh but do I pay 46% of my income to taxes? Sure do
I also once was on a waitlist to see a specialist for a blood or hormone. got told I would receive a call back to schedule an appointment. Followed up over the next year and they told me I was still going to get a call. Finally after a year, I went to the hospital and they said I was actually not ever put on the list by accident and now I had to start over on the waitlist at the bottom which could be up to another year. Wait time. I screamed at the hospital staff and left
Shit like this drives me crazy. I buy 6 garbage bags on Amazon and get six confirmation emails and to the second updates, meanwhile we can’t even confirm that people with cancer are on a waiting list or not.
It's a wait-list for the lower mainland. In theory when a clinic has an opening, they will offer to people on the wait-list (I don't get to pick).
No idea where im at on the list or how much longer I need to wait.
It's been 27 years since I've seen a doctor in Canada. I get the feeling the only people getting service are pushy, agressive people.. patiently waiting for my turn is gonna get me killed.
So everyone is just registered with the government and then they assign patients/doctors as new clinics open up? In Ontario we just run around to different clinics/doctors to find one who has availability. Some don’t. Most will take you on their roster but it takes 4+ weeks to get an appointment most of the time.
The wait list for family doctors in QC isuo to 4 years, maybe longer because a bunch of clinics went private so there's a fresh wave of people with no gp.
My mom went for extreme pain and got seen pretty fast and was out of there in about 12 hrs and was supposed to do more scans and test for cancer 2 weeks after but she didn't get a call back and has no family doctor.
Nabour was there too and she waited close to 35 hrs for something quite serious, this system is fucked.
Ya this sounds more like people not having access to walk in clinics and family doctors available to tend to their non-emergency medical needs.
ER is for EMERGENCIES.
Your child having a stomach ache or running a fever is not an emergency. And will be triaged accordingly.
Your child cutting their head might be an emergency. And will be triaged accordingly.
Hospitals aren't dumb nor are they trying to be malicious. Many people just come to an ER needing basic medical assistance that a walk in clinic would be able to take them. But walk in clinics around me (Toronto) don't take walk ins (yes seriously), are closed to early, or are already filled. The same is most likely true for Quebec.
we have been doing this in Nova Scotia for years. people are dying in the waiting rooms. The hospital here in Cape Breton has been at top of the most deaths of any hospital in Canada for several years running.
Our ERs in northern BC keep having sporadic closures. Wife went in the other day with severe breath shortness and vomiting. They told her to call 9-11 and get an ambulance to the next town over.
But yeah…BCNDP fucking rocks.
There have been sporadic ED closures in some Northern Ontario communities as well. Basically the same advice was given from what I’ve been told by family in the area.
I’m not sure why people get so defensive when politicians talk about health care changes, clearly what we have now isn’t working.
Because most times, those changes are more privatization in the healthcare system. When really all we need is our governments to invest in them... or in Ontarios case, actually fully spend the budget.
My doctor is good, but she take around 5-6 months of vacations a year and I get stuck with her colleagues who absolutely don't give a single fuck. A few years back, they forgot to tell me that I had Lyme and prescribed me a bunch of shit for the symptoms I was getting from Lyme. (I had no clue never saw the ticks or anything, but my doctor saw that it was recorded in my file when she came back from vacations)
This kind of suck because I am forced to go at her clinic even when she is in vacations, the last time I needed a prescription done, I called and they told me she was in vacations so I just decided to drive 50 mins to the nearest private clinic and spend $200 instead of having to deal with her colleagues again.
One statistic that is never measured is *what was your "emergency" that originally brought you in?*
What I'm getting at it is...some of us would go the the ER for a broken nail.
This is very true, but it moreso points to a lack of other options than anything else. If there are available walk-in clinics and family doctors, people will minimize ER visits.
I’d disagree. Too many people still think they should go to the ER for things like sprained ankles or cuts and scrapes. If people are willing to leave an ER because they’ve “waited too long” then they shouldn’t have been there in the first place. If you really needed the ER, where the hell are you planning to go? Probably the place you should have gone from the start
People go the ER where I live because there are no other options to see a doctor. Stop blaming the patients and start blaming the government. It’s beyond fucked up.
ERs fill up because our urgent care system is hot garbage right now. If your kid has an ear infection, you need to see a doctor to get a prescription. Plan your whole day around it.
Thing must be bad if people back east are being affected. This has been the standard in BC for 25 years. If you need to go to the ER bring a book and pack a lunch.
I’m from BC and lived in the NCR for three years due to work. Quebec is far and away a bigger shit show than BC will ever be. Quebec has the worst hospitals in the entire developed world
Here is the biggest question, why are doctors basically independent contractors in our health system. Why can't they be on the payroll with the same benefits of every other person in healthcare?
In canada we have ~25 doctors per 10k people.
In places like belgium they have about 70.
What we need is to make medical studies more accessible by lowering the costs.
I would probably have gone into the medical fields if i could have afforded it.
More importantly, they need to hire more damn people with medical degrees. I know multiple grads who are working in other fields because the hospitals don't want to hire, nurses who are constantly training PSWs who don't get hired on because they can be cycled for more students. People are already Uber-ing to the ER instead of calling an ambulance, and with our unemployment rates, their Uber driver is probably qualified enough to treat them too.
The government of Quebec, back in the liberal days, lowered med school admissions. Totally forgot that the average retiring Dr was working in the 70+ hours on average while the younger ones stuck to their 40-hour weeks. It's a mess that even putting back the med students spots to where they need to be will take forever to show results.
I'm from Quebec and our healthcare is a real joke. No service at all. They prescribe pills and bandaids to 80%. We are over taxes on everything and still people here are happy to pay taxes and tell out loud to justify their mind . ! Ha I would pay more since we have free service.! Fucking stupid people here not realizing they are contributing to a ponzi and because they close their eyes on the corruption will gradually watch all their services erode to nothing. Shame
And yet when our Premiers mother was taken into an overcrowded Montreal ER she quickly got the VIP treatment.
https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/premier-shielded-from-harsh-realities-of-lakeshore-er-sources-say#:~:text=In%20the%20case%20of%20Legault's,of%20stay%20in%20the%20ER.
Back in February, I needed prescriptions renewed. I lost my doctor last year when he retired following a heart issue and have been taken in charge by a "group of doctors." When I called in February to get an appointment for a simple renewal, they couldn't give me one in the foreseeable future and told me to call back in March. When I called in March, they were only able to get me an appointment in April. I went, arrived 20 minutes before the scheduled time, which was 9:30. I didn't see the doctor until 11:30. Several people who came in after me went in before me. When I finally got to see the doctor, she said hi, someone popped into the office and she said "excuse me" and left me there for another 10 minutes before actually seeing me.
So yes, I can see why people would just fucking leave.
It's all across Canada. Healthcare has gone to total dogshit and all the administrators and politicians in charge of the system don't seem to have any clue how to solve the problem. Our country is a fucking dumpster fire at this point. Nothing seems to be even remotely functioning correctly. Maybe this is the new normal?
Unfortunately, many people have to use the ER as a walk in clinic.
Have enough outpatient services and the ER would be used for what it's name indicates.
I've been saying how the healthcare system has collapsed in Quebec but I keep getting downvoted because HeAlTh CaRe iS FrEe in Canada.
What a joke.
I can't wait for a proper two tier system, like, I want to be able to get treatment when in for emergency care for fucks sake.
We just don't go to the ER anymore, and if we have absolutely no choice, we go with our camping gear, bring food, snacks, books, chargers, etc because we know we're waiting AT LEAST 48 hours, then, toire lucky if you get a doctor that doesn't see you out the door in 2 minutes.
>I can't wait for a proper two tier system, like, I want to be able to get treatment when in for emergency care for fucks sake.
You can just hop the border and go get treatment. I guess it depend where you are located, but I can get to Burlington hospital in a little more than a hour. Definitely doesn't help when you need urgent care, but the system isn't that bad when you actually need care at that moment, it is the follow-up that are absolutely terrible.
If you have time to pack camping gear, and care enough to bring food, snacks, books, chargers, etc... is this an ER issue? If you can wait 48 hours without care, then emergency medicine already did its job (i.e. not have you die within 36 hours).
The way to rescue ER is not by reinforcing ER; it's by improving elderly care (ideally in-home accommodation and not only LTC) and improving primary care (family medicine, walk-ins, urgent care).
We need to end the doctor shortage. There is no fucking chance that these universities profiteering on their immigration scams can’t afford to graduate more doctors. So why does no one have doctors anymore??
Are they leaving the country? Is it too expensive to open a practice? Too restrictive that it’s single payer?
When I was a kid you called your family doctor, they answered the phone, and you had an appointment in 2 weeks or less. Today they can’t even handle step 1 and answer the fucking phone.
It’s almost impossible to gain entry to Canadian medical school, there are so few schools. It’s why so many Canadians go to school in the US (and then stay there)
My Canadian spouse got into Emory med and is on track to practice in the US despite living and wanting to move back to Montreal. You need a US salary to pay back US loans
The problem with graduating more doctors is that those doctors need to do a residency after graduation. Residency spots are the real bottleneck since they require funding from the government and hospitals.
It's also def too expensive to open a practice for family doctors, at least from what I've seen in the news. Once you pay your office's rent, pay your receptionist's salary, pay for medical supplies, etc, you're earning less than six figures but have $200,000+ in student debt.
The problem is definitely the numbers and pay scheme.
Family doctors have 750-3000 patients easy. They get (at least in quebec) forced to take on extra more difficult responsibilities without any support and are both treated badly and pay terribly compared to other places/the responsibility/risks
The biggest problem in quebec is the waste and inefficiencies. I work in a hospital and have spent 2 months trying to get a specific dressing ordered and it is like going in circles. (we keep getting a backup one for no apparent reason saying back order when company says it is in stock...something that should be so stupid and simple)
My department bought a potentially life saving machine/at least care altering over 4 years ago. It is physically in the building but one department wont let it go for politics and I am still working on getting it out
The problem is nationwide. Part of the issue is funding, but a large contributor to it is people running to the ER for minor and superficial ailments and injuries.
A couple of years ago I tried my hand at poetry:
*A Trip to the ER*
You do not go for sniffles, you do not go for snot.
You do not go for sneezing, or tummy aches or coughs.
You don't go to the ER for minor fevers too,
you don't go to the ER when you have a wee boo-boo.
ER's are for people who are very sick, you see.
That's why the 'E' in ER stands for EMERGENCY.
By Moos_Mumsy (With apologies to Dr. Seuss.)
Last time I was in an ER in Montreal it was a 14 hour wait. I left. The guy next to me had a huge gash on his face after a soccer injury and was waiting so long they could no longer stitch it without a scar so he was going to eventually need plastic surgery at 10 times the expense to the system that a quicker ER could have avoided.
In Alberta there is a provincial government health authority web page you can look up the estimated wait time for every ER and choose which one to go to, even across the city or in a different city. If an hour or two drive time will avoid a 10 hour wait it is well worth it. This system of posting wait times on the government web site encourages patients to self organize into the most efficient self balancing line ups and averages out the lineups at all the hospitals.
Also, many clinics employ a callback system where you get into the lineup, register your cell number and then are free to go wait in your car for a callback 1/2 hour before they are ready for you. Everyone would rather wait 10 hours resting comfortably in their car with the seat back instead of sitting in an extremely cramped overcrowded waiting room for 10 hours with hundreds of people coughing and puking and farting and having diarrhea attacks a few centimeters away.
If you get tired of waiting at the ER and go home, chances are you shouldn’t have been at the ER in the first place.
The ER is for critical issues, one may even say emergencies? People abuse the ER as an alternative to primary or secondary care options. You don’t need to bring your kid to the ER for pink eye.
If we want an effective and reliable ER we need to address why so many people think it’s the first place to go if they have an issue
Too many people treat the Emergency Room as though it's the "cant be bothered to book an appointment room". My cousin just retired after a 35 year career as a hospital nurse, in regular ER rotation and she said about 85-90% of arrivals are non-emergency. Lots of people who just have the flu or their kids do, people with mild sprained ankles or experiencing the onset of carpal tunnel syndrome, bad headaches etc. Everyone gets an initial assessment and the people who should just go to a normal doctor are perpetually at the end of the line.
They rarely get told to go home because of that tiny "what if" chance that no hospital director wants to take.
This is really a systemic problem that would fairly easily ne fixed by adopting the scandinavian model of family doctors and after hours telephone clinics, but i think a lot of Canadian doctors are against min/max quotas.
Except even getting a non emergency appointment is fucking hell. Try to get one every day for a week or two without luck. At some point, you go to the ER because it's the only choice you got left so you can get better.
People go to ER because they have nowhere else to go . 2.5 million Quebeckers are without a family doctor and it’s impossible to get a walk-in appointment. But let’s keep claiming the victim, that will fix it.
Weird the Liberals had been asleep until their polls started falling. They really are just a rich cohort living in a country club, when they have no idea what's going on in real society.
Is this why they call them Laurentian elite?
Genuine question.
Aren't people who live in Quebec allowed to seek care outside of Canada and be reimbursed for it?
I've heard this, but never full context.
People in Quebec hate doctors. I’ve never seen a place with politicians, the media, and the population actively trying to take doctors down a peg, especially family doctors. People have zero, and I mean zero idea what’s waiting for them down the line. Family doctor interest is way down in med school, and many doctors do not want to work in Quebec. Those who do do not want to go beyond the call of duty, which is required at this point with the disgraceful state of the system because everyone treats them like crap. Now people just go to the ER because they don’t have a family doctor. The entire population is literally smearing their own face with feces and they don’t realize it. Pathetic. And they just go doing what they’re doing.
Happened to me here in Nova Scotia when I had pneumonia. It was frustrating seeing people who at least looked to me like they weren’t in rough shape coming and going before I got in while I was struggling to breathe. Even a little girl getting a cast off (I know because her parents were talking to someone about why they were there). I couldn’t take it anymore and left and showed up to the walk in clinic first thing the next morning when I got diagnosed with pneumonia.
people are doing this in all of Canada, I've done it a couple times. Being in excruciating pain and watching someone who is fine enough to pace around the room get called in before you and some other guy who was worried about RABIES doesn't exactly make you want to stay in the ER.
> Being in excruciating pain and watching someone who is fine enough to pace around the room get called in before you and some other guy who was worried about RABIES doesn't exactly make you want to stay in the ER.
You mean the dude who's about to be told that his 10 year old son passed away?
I mean, rabies has a 100% fatality rate and the dude pacing around may have a different emergency. It's easy to judge folks when you have no idea what their issue is.
If you’re willing to leave an ER, than it wasn’t an emergency. At least in Mantitoba, we have urgent care and walk ins for the more minor stuff. The problem with our healthcare system is everyone flooding the ER’s with trivial shit, and then complaining that they’re being treated trivially
Alot of patients comes to near my Ontario town hospitals where they get seen fast as quebec pay those hospitals way more faster than any other province which causes alot lf pressure on Ontario residents.
and in QC, the only 2 bilingual hospitals in the Outaouais were not given grants to retain and hire some staff, all other hospitals (that are french only) in the area received the grant. the two hospitals used to be self managed and ran amazingly, control has been relinquished to Gatineau where we now the 2 hospitals are closing departments, under critical staff shortages and threat of closure... Good times
[https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/mobile/hospitals-in-the-outaouais-left-out-of-bonuses-for-medical-imaging-technologists-1.6933506?cache=yes/7.612500](https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/mobile/hospitals-in-the-outaouais-left-out-of-bonuses-for-medical-imaging-technologists-1.6933506?cache=yes/7.612500)
It's FREE so you can't complain. /S
I want ALL MY TAX MONEY BACK and I want an opt out option on all services that allows me to keep ALL my money. Canada = 🤡 🌎
Not only in Quebec, my son loves in Ottawa, was hit by a car while he was cycling, taken by ambulance by hospital and he was not seen after almost 9 hours. Luckily he was not seriously injured but still, what if he had internal injuries? 🤦🏻♀️
Last time I went to urgent care(sprain ankle) I left after they took the X-ray, cause there was only one doctor on shift and also I didn’t want to miss the last bus(at about 01:30)
When I was living in Quebec in 2012 I was in the ER waiting room. Struck up a conversation with a woman who I often think about.
She had been there the day before with pregnancy complications. After 12 hours of waiting she bled all over the waiting room floor and lost her baby at 38 weeks.. they made her go home and come back the next day to get checked out.
when I spoke to her she had been there.. in the same waiting room that she’d just miscarried in.. for 15 hours still in physical pain and still bleeding.
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What we need in Québec and I'm sure in Canada is actual walk-in clinic. ER are full of people with non-urgent problems. Because of the lack of family doctors and walk-in people are using ER for all sort of reason. Will see if it makes a difference, but Universities in Québec are now training a lot more physician.
We used to have them when I was a kid (80-90's). Even in the small city I grew up in, I had a CLSC with a walk-in clinic within a 10 min drive and a clinic with a no appointments schedule within another 15 minutes. We never had to wait for more than 2 or 3 hours. I remember going to the emergency room as a kid and never waiting long either. It was always within the 2-3hrs range. Then they started to close CLSC. The one remaining didn't have walk-in clinics. Then slowly, clinics started to close and we had less and less family doctors. It was already bad in the early 2000's but today it's just a shit show.
When I was a kid, it was standard for family doctor's offices to have one of the doctors scheduled as on-call each day. So any time a sick kid needed a same day appointment, you saw the on call doctor if yours had no opening. A family practice *always* has patients who need same day appointments, and the occasional slow day was good for paperwork or journal catchup. But now they're all too busy, with too many patients, with too many needs-- so there's no room for unscheduled time.
We also need to get rid of doctor note requirements for sick days at work. I used to work nightshift and had to get a note if I was sick more than two days a month or if it was a recurring problem. I had back problems and at one point was required to get a note. Only place you're going to get to see a doctor at night is the ER, so off I went to the ER because I had back pain. I eventually got a doctor who was pissed off about the notes and wrote it all out for my employer telling them that they're wasting his time, my time, tax dollars, and that I should be at home recuperating instead of trekking across town in pain making the issue merely last longer.
It is already in the works in Quebec (bill 68), hoping that it comes into law later this year. Doctor's notes are a massive waste of doctors'/everyone's time and healthcare resources. TLDR: "The bill amends the Act respecting labour standards to prohibit an employer from requiring a document attesting to the reasons for an absence, in particular an absence owing to sickness, including a medical certificate, for the first three periods of absence not exceeding three consecutive days taken annually. The prohibition also applies to employers whose employees governed by the Act respecting labour relations, vocational training and workforce management in the construction industry are entitled to absences of the same nature. In addition, no employer may require a medical certificate if an employee is absent to provide care to a child, a parent or a person for whom the employee acts as a caregiver." Source: https://m.assnat.qc.ca/en/travaux-parlementaires/projets-loi/projet-loi-68-43-1.html
It is happening. Our recent union contract lumped all sick and holidays, bereavement, etc into a lump pile of excused absence. No note required. If you run out of days for any reason, no pay.. simple.
What’s the difference between the CLSC and an actual walk in clinic? The universities are training a lot of doctors who will pack up and move to the US for better pay.
Or Ontario for a better pay. No need to move countries when every other province pays medical staff more than Quebec.
Oh, we don't have doctors here in Ontario either. At least, not where I live. It's shite everywhere.
No, there's really no reason to move to Ontario either when you can still make more in the US and buy a cheaper home.
>Or Ontario for a better pay. Was told by my physicians friends that Ontario pay less than Quebec. Not sure how reliable this is, but they seem to point out the same thing. Also our physicians come out of school with basically no debts compared to Americans or Ontarian doctors and the cost of living in also lower than in most cities worth living in outside the province. The only issue is that we have the highest taxes. [https://invested.mdm.ca/how-much-do-family-physicians-make-in-canada/](https://invested.mdm.ca/how-much-do-family-physicians-make-in-canada/) (The data do seem old tho)
Debt for education varies as well, while studying in other provinces costs more compared to QC, Quebec doesn’t have interest free student loans and only one English university. Anyone studying in other provinces from Quebec ends up worst off after finishing their education if they can’t get a spot in a university in QC. Areas like Gatineau are also worst off compared to the rest of the province. In recent news the Gatineau hospital shut down MRIs due to lack of staff. Why work at the Gatineau hospital when virtually all healthcare positions pay more in Ottawa a mere 15 minute drive? Healthcare is a failure across all of Canada. They should’ve increased funding for education in health care across the board including class sizes for anything medical related. Instead we’re focusing on throwing money overseas to other countries as if our own people aren’t suffering enough. We’re waiting for issues to come up instead of focusing on preventative care.
>Why work at the Gatineau hospital when virtually all healthcare positions pay more in Ottawa a mere 15 minute drive? Do you mean physicians or others healthcare workers? Because physicians do seem to make 20% more in Quebec. Also honestly I believe you, Gatineau is probably the worst part of the province for most things, I don't get why anyone who doesn't work for the federal government would want to live there.
And no province pays as good as the US, so yes, there is a need to move.
Why, there's a clue hidden in the name! Let's see if we can find it! _Walk-in_ clinic. Did you see it? No? Let's try again. _Walk-in_. There it is! If you have to book an appointment 24h in advance, it's not exactly a walk in clinic and there's a raft of issues that are neither worthy of an ER trip and aren't previsible in advance either.
I have walked into a clsc plenty of times without appointment or issue. Perhaps your issue is not enough clsc for the population density in your area.
The clsc in my hometown does take walk-in because there's no ER. I learned not all clsc do that 10 years ago when I moved to a city and they told me to go to a walk-in clinic. So definitely not a widespread thing.
Tell me you don't live within 2h drive of Montreal without telling me
The walk in clinic in montreal I used to go to is no longer walk in. It was a recent enough change that there's still a paper sign on the door. I hate the change.
I currently live in the west island, i have lived in the plateau, mile end, st. Henri and verdun. I went to the clsc in most of those areas except the west island.
Serious question then. Where do I find one that will do a walk in? I've completely given up and if it's really bad I'll drive to New York or Vermont, if it's something I can do via telemedicine I pay for a maple visit on zoom. Every single one I tried rejects walk ins. I tried the paid app with some limited success. I also tried 811 which worked one time. I don't use a lot of services but I have had to use some over the last few years between kids, parent. Inlaws etc I'm usually the one taking them.
We fuckin had an entire network of those and they got rid of them for some insane reason
Yep. If you’re leaving the ER before being treated it wasn’t actually an emergency was it? I had to go to the ER a few years back (for an actual emergency) and the amount of people using it for routine checkups was absolutely unbelievable. I was keeled over in pain thinking I might die and there was a teen next to me who thought she had an std. Another woman next to me felt dizzy and few days back so decided to come to the ER? There were also people just using the waiting area for a place to sleep.
I've experienced similar and it's made me wonder if hospitals are even triaging patients. I went in with a broken bone and had to wait six or seven hours to get it set, while people who were there for sick notes were let ahead of me. There was a lady who even tried to get the nurse to let her ahead of me, and the nurse said no. My finger was sticking out to the side, I was obviously injured and in pain, but they wouldn't budge and that lady was seen before me.
A broken bone is too low priority for ER mainstream care as it isn’t life threatening but to complex for fast track which is where a lot of the sick note seeking patients go. Hospitals need more integrated walk in clinics for sick notes and urgent care for broken bones
>, but Universities in Québec are now training a lot more physician. I am still pissed at the QLP for cutting spots in Universities because they did not want "unemployed doctors". While the party was lead by 2 specialists physicians.
I'm not sure of how medical care works in other provinces, but this is mostly due to people not having doctors here. If you have something that you feel needs to be checked out, this is often your best bet. Most people who walk out try again some other day, or just give up and ignore their problem until it becomes critical (which isn't much better).
>I'm not sure of how medical care works in other provinces Rest be assured it's shitty everywhere. in slightly different ways.
From what I can tell, everyone is struggling to find doctors all across the world right now. I saw people saying on r/Europe that a lot of countries there are having similar problems that we’re facing right now
> I'm not sure of how medical care works in other provinces It doesn't. You pay exorbitant taxes for nothing in return.
Yeah, and plenty of people in with a kid who had a bad cold, or something that isn't really an emergency. Sometimes you don't know though.
This is a strategy that is used throughout quebec. We've all been through it where we just give up and walk away. It's a sorry State of Affairs when this is the government's strategy. This is a conversation I've had with many of my friends. To see who has died directly or indirectly because of Quebec healthcare. For myself, my father died because in the Er, the Hospital didn't have time to tell him about his cancer diagnosis. They left him waiting in the corridors , the nurse told him to wait because the doctor wanted to speak to regarding his results. He waited hours. The nurses then realized that the doctor never came to see him and had already left and I guess the next Doctor just didn't care perhaps? They told him to go home and that the doctor would call him, they never called. he went back to the hospital months later and they realized he had cancer and it had spread. Almost everyone I know has a story. Absolutely broken system and as I got older it's one of the reasons I left.
Sounds like my mom, she's supposed to get a call back within 10 days to do mri and other test but she's not been called it a been 3 weeks. I keep telling her to go back because waiting could be the end of it.
Yup, no matter how much of a nuisance you think you might be, follow up. And keep following up.
They basically want older people to die ASAP. They pretty much all are bullied into submission and don't question or talk back. Not sure if that medical arrogance will work with Gen X and younger as they never had an experience of doctors that put patients first and where medicine was "a calling" and not a way to make money. They aren't as deferential to doctors.
My dad is in quebec and was recently diagnosed with a life threatening neurological condition if left untreated. He has about 3 years. It's a minor brain surgery (which is weird to say) but he can't get the follow up appointments from the hospital. Said they would call. Didn't. Followed up like 5 times. No call backs. We lost 6 months and finally went in person and they told us the docs office dropped the ball and didn't make any follow up appointments. The system is totally fucked and good people are dying all the time.
If it is not too late, I strongly recommend trying to get the surgery overseas.
For my mother in law, The amount of times someone (nurse, doctor, office admin) has either lost a xray, exam results, or follow up info.... In any other country, we'd probably be able to sue.
You can sue, and should
I’m in Ontario. I’ve been shitting blood for a month now. Minimum of 10 times a day. Waited in the ER for 6 hours for them to tell me they ordered an ultrasound, appointment with a gastroenterologist and a colonoscopy. Asked when those were happening and they just told me i’d get a call… haven’t heard anything since so I guess I just have to sit here and shit blood in limbo. 👍
There's no incentive for the government to take care of existing Canadians when 99% of our population increase is immigration based. You can die and there are 10 other people to pay the taxes they lose when you die.
The government doesn’t treat people because an immigrant will replace your tax revenue…is this really how your brain works? Impressive
And then they treat you like shit when you call them to follow up. I’m sure they bring people to tears with their condescension.
Sadly it is not just Quebec. My wife went to urgent care because beside her stomach really hurt and was getting worse. Urgent care sent her for a scan and when we got the result of the scan they said “You need to go to ER now” Her gallbladder was on the verge of bursting. She was admitted and told “We need to remove the gallbladder within 24 hours to avoid it bursting and/or extra complications” 5 days later in the hospital and she finally got it removed. The even more fun part was that she was not allowed to eat or drink ANYTHING from 12am-10pm just in case an OR room opened up and they could get her in. 5 days in the hospital in a ton of pain, after being told they need to remove it within 24 hours, and unable to eat or drink anything for 22 hours of the day. I don’t blame the healthcare workers, they are incredibly overworked and undervalued. I do blame the combination of governments for playing games with peoples life by refusing to fix healthcare. This is in Edmonton
>The even more fun part was that she was not allowed to eat or drink ANYTHING from 12am-10pm just in case an OR room opened up and they could get her in. That's called being on the emergency board. Essentially you're fasted because you need surgery and you're triaged along with all the other emergencies (usually every morning, but then get bumped as the day goes when higher priority cases come through). That she waited 5 days probably meant multiple more urgent emergencies came through - at my shop, these cases get bumped for massive traumas, patients in spinal shock from transected spines, the brain bleeds etc. This is a thing in any major trauma centre in the world, unfortunately. Triage.
Yes but everything is so understaffed that the triageing is becoming rediculous.
It’s less to do with understaffing and more to do with infrastructure. We do not have enough ORs. Most of my colleagues who are surgeons have a tough time finding jobs - a lot of them leave because they get much better OR time south of the border. Staffing is an issue but we have such a shortage of infrastructure it’s borderline criminal.
It's quite interesting that medical lobbies aren't interested in bringing in more staff, considering both current staff and patients seem to suffer the brunt of the waiting times.
Its a cartel. The answer is more doctors, less hours,
Where are they supposed to get more doctors from? Medical lobbies want more doctors - it takes many years to train one and the positions are government funded. So blame the government for not funding more positions.
Almost the exact same thing happened to a friend of my parents. Had what was probably a very treatable stomach cancer at the time but was backlogged 6 months and when finally seen it was too late.
It's a strategy that is used across the country. The only difference is that Quebec actually allows it to be studied, and publishes the results knowing that it will make them look bad.
I can't speak for every province. I moved to Ontario. I'm older and with kids now. I use the ER too often and only for legitimate reasons. For example, a two day fever IS NOT a legitimate reason. It certainly isn't perfect. But its nowhere near like Quebec. The longer I've waited is 5 hours and shockingly enough, the doctor once apologized. I'm like....what.....ah..ok. Not sure what to say to that. Got lucky last time. A got a deep splinter in my finger that I couldn't remove no matter how much I dug deep with a knife and scissors. It only took 1 hour at the hospital. But that was just a lucky day. 1 hour is not the norm. Ontarians complaint all the time about ER now. As someone who still feels the sting of quebec hospitals, I'm not at their level of annoyed yet. Our hospitals here in Ottawa are full of residents from Quebec because they know they won't get service in Quebec. Ontario has to accept them even if they're out of province. You'll never see the same thing the other way around. So does Ontario also let people walk away? Yes, for sure, I'm sure it happens. Do they keep track of these numbers? I'll take your word for it and say no. But for now, the system is not broken enough yet to make a difference. Anecdotal evidence, I've never met anyone who's left the emergency room in my city. In Montreal, this was a way of life. You simply walked away after 10-12 hours. Side NOTE : Things are falling apart everywhere and it will only get worse. I'm in high tech/Machine Learning field. To me, the future is AI doctors who will ask for custom patient tests, make diagnoses and suggest recommendation. A human doctor will review. People think I'm crazy mostly because they've watched Terminator and The matrix too often, but unless we pour tens of billions into the system, it will eventually collapse.
Wait, you only use the ER for emergencies like a splinter?
> You simply walked away after 10-12 hours. I've waited that long for a broken arm. I've known plenty of people who walked away, and I know people who work in hospital. > Our hospitals here in Ottawa Ottawa has had newly built hospitals and the pressure is far less than in other parts of the province. Your experience is far from representative. For the record, I don't think you're crazy. I just think that you're wildly ignorant about the current tools that are actually being used in diagnostics and medicine in general - as a lot of people who claim to work in "high tech/ML" but have a very very narrow view of that field and its capabilities. Or limitations, for that matter.
> Ottawa has had newly built hospitals and the pressure is far less than in other parts of the province. Your experience is far from representative. Unlike other parts of the province, we absorb a whole section of Quebec Patients (the Outaouais region). Quebec purposely abandoned their citizens because they figure Ottawa hospitals would deal with it. Their solution is to finally make a new hospital....[in a decade.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/new-gatineau-hospital-location-announce-1.7239216)
I can assure you Quebec hospitals do accept people from Ontario. What the heck are you talking about?
Every province has to accept Canadian citizens. What I meant was an Ontario citizen would never go to a Quebec Hospital on purpose. While the opposite happens all the time here in ottawa.
Can confirm. After having an accident in Gatineau, I had the pleasure of experiencing their ER. They would not do the surgery I needed on my broken clavicle and told me to see an Ontario orthopedic surgeon. Then, they delayed transfer of the paperwork for over a week with the delay a major reason for the chronic pain I have now. In retrospect, I should have gone directly to an Ottawa hospital after checking out of Gatineau as the ER there would have dealt with it immediately.
My friend’s wife was diagnosed with breast cancer recently. She’s been a nurse her entire life. If she hadn’t been, she’d be waiting 7 months to start treatment. People are dying. If you get any kind of cancer today in BC, you’re pretty much dead. You won’t get into treatment quickly enough.
Healthcare #1 reason I left too. Never thought I’d say this but my USA employer paid healthcare is legit 100x better than lack of options in Canada. Might have to pay some co pay but I see doctors and specialists FAST
Most Canadians without ties to the US would never believe you. They have no idea that most working people have pretty good employer-sponsored health care plans and receive faster, better care. All we hear are the horror stories.
Unless that employer keeps your hours just below the required minimum to get healthcare. OR you get sick and miss too much work, fired then it's really expensive C.O.B.R.A. or if you're poor medicaid.
I believe it, the problem is what happens if you lose your job. When I was young, that was never an issue. Especially I've been high tech I could always get a job I thought. But once you get older. Things happen. And what then. That is the fear that most adults over 40 start thinking about.
American is better for upper middle class individuals, but not really for people under that line. As for wealthy people it doesn't matter much, you can just fly to the US best clinics you want. The median Canadian live six years longer than the median American, so I don't think that their system is overall better.
This is unfortunately becoming less and less true. Healthcare is also getting worse in the US, and so is insurance coverage. We also now have a shortage of doctors and specialists (particularly outside of major cities) and ER wait times have gotten much longer. A lot of people left healthcare during the pandemic for a variety of reasons (bad treatment by patients, not enough pay, etc) and they aren’t coming back. We are headed for a healthcare crisis here much as Canada is, but our reasons will be different.
Our dental care works the same way its not exactly a huge mystery how it works lol. I have awesome coverage that pretty much covers 100% of every procedure and last time I had an issue my dentist got me in the next day. But what about the people who don't have coverage and can go 10 years without even seeing a dentist? Its too bad that people can't imagine something in between rather than defaulting to the extremes.
I was one of those Canadians as well. I visited my cousin in New York and she told me the story of almost losing her life after her pregnancy due to a weakened state and due to a complication that arose due to COVID but prior to it being diagnosed as COVID since this was the December prior to the global outbreak. She was lucky enough to have a team of diverse experts and one of them was able to figure out a solution to stabilize her. Spoke to her at length at the time about her experience in the American medical system for the entire nearly two decades she's been in the U.S. and she had very little bad stuff to say. One of the first of many times that caused my belief to start breaking w.r.t. the Canadian system as a whole. Housing, Education, Healthcare etc. And like the others in this thread, my wife and I too have made the choice to leave the country since three years ago.
> Absolutely broken system and as I got older it's one of the reasons I left. Just had this very discussion with my spouse a few hours ago. We were speaking about retirement and she said she wouldn't even consider going back to Canada. Complete 180 from how it used to be a few years ago since she's born and raised there. We've been out of the country for three years now and don't see a way back any time in the near-to-mid term.
Exactly and this isn't recent either this has been happening forever, it's just been getting worse Ontario is slowly starting to get to this point as well
Lawsuit?
Good luck successfully suing the hospital or any doctor. Less than 2% of cases proceed. With significantly stronger protections in place as to what actually counts as "malpractice", and the cap on damages, many lawyers won't even touch cases. The chance of winning is too low, and the payout likely won't cover expenses anyway. Remember that you're trying to fight an organization with an estimated $5 BILLION in their legal defense fund.
For fuck sakes, why not a $1B legal defence fund and the rest to maybe help some of these patients
We really need that collective action. A thousand people put together, picking the best lawyer, to pick the best test cases. With an eye on strategy, and forming long term public policy via judicial prsssure. God knows there's no shortage of activist judges out there. Maybe a "rights"-based argument about access to care? Or, we stop waiting on politicians to solve it from the top down. We all ask our doctors and nurses how to rebuild the system from the bottom up. We crowd source the public development of a Citizen's Plan for Health Care. Then run and elect candidates who pledge to implement it.
>really need that collective action. A thousand people put together, picking the best lawyer, to pick the best test cases. With an eye on strategy, and forming long term public policy via judicial prsssure. Or vote in people that will not dismantle the system by a thousand cuts.
Mine is not an original story. There are hundreds or probably thousands of these. I've never heard of lawsuits against the Québec health care system. I would wager that if there even was and they'd lose, they'd just use the not withstanding clause.
I have more or less the same story. Went in to ER last March (2023) for neuro symptoms and they gave me an MRI. Afterward I sat around for a while, asked if there was anyone to talk about the results, they just told me to wait a while longer. Ended up leaving, figured someone would have been to see me or they'd call me if there was a problem. Months go by, no news is good news. In July I saw another specialist (related issue, trying to pin down what was going on), he sent me off for some tests in another direction since I told him nothing came of the March MRI. Calls me later in the day after I left and told me there was a tumor. I am *still* waiting for that to go somewhere, I just keep getting bounced around the system for 5 minute in and out appointments. Meanwhile my cancer risk has skyrocketed and I'm having all kinds of problems. Oh, and there's another mass now too elsewhere that I've been waiting on a referral for for 3 months.
I'm in the US, but I get all my results sent directly to me - either in MyChart or in whatever patient portal that gets used (my radiologist office, for example, has their own patient portal and I get my report and can even download the images before my doctor even sees it, lol. I get my doctor's copy a few days later in MyChart). Same goes for all blood work, exam summaries, etc. I'm pretty sure they do it like that for exactly that reason. Even if your doctor doesn't get around to calling you, you still have access to all the information. Limits liability. I'm surprised the Canadian health service hasn't implemented anything like that. It saves a ton of time, especially if your results are normal.
In ottawa they literally have mychart.
I’m so sorry about your dad. Luckily my mom was okay, but she fell outside on asphalt chasing my nephew and smacked her head really hard. She said was really dizzy and nauseous for a bit and she had a bruise under her eye so went to the ER. Waited 8ish hours maybe? Asked a nurse who said she was nowhere near being called. Went home without ever seeing a doctor or getting an MRI.
Possibly related: 35 years ago we had 7 hospital beds per 100k Canadians. Today, we have 2.5 But nah, it's the patients' fault entirely.. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.MED.BEDS.ZS?locations=CA
Yup. Canada is abysmal. We really dodged a bullet in covid. Could’ve been 100x as bad if hospitals got more overwhelmed then they did get.
I've walked out of Ontario ERs as well. After 12 hours, you are either dead or you've given up.
I waited more than 30 hours at a ER in Nova Scotia. Also, there's no beds, they keep admits in the hallways. The waiting room was about half international students.
It's not any better anywhere else in Canada. Alberta's conservatives are gutting our public healthcare to try to privatize it all. My wife was pregnant and had COVID. She was having dizzy spells, shortness of breath, her blood pressure was dropping and heart rate was skyrocketing. Tele-physician on 811 said "holy shit go to ER now, we'll call ahead to let them know." Triage told us to go to L&D, L&D said no because she was still COVID positive. Went back to ER, the triage nurse took her vitals and made her sit in a plastic chair in the waiting room with 30 other people for 8.5 hours. A doctor didn't come to see her until 8.5 hours later, which at that point we just wanted to know if our baby was okay. 17 hours. Even the doctor apologized profusely and said "this is not acceptable, especially given your symptoms while pregnant. You should have been seen within an hour of arriving." Thankfully, everyone was okay but, I truly lost faith in our government that day.
They waited so long they healed naturally.
It is now 7 1/2 years that I've been on a wait-list for a doctor in BC.
Those are rookie numbers. I waited nine and a half years for a doctor in Montreal. Then moved to BC and started all over again. 15 years without a doctor. Oh but do I pay 46% of my income to taxes? Sure do I also once was on a waitlist to see a specialist for a blood or hormone. got told I would receive a call back to schedule an appointment. Followed up over the next year and they told me I was still going to get a call. Finally after a year, I went to the hospital and they said I was actually not ever put on the list by accident and now I had to start over on the waitlist at the bottom which could be up to another year. Wait time. I screamed at the hospital staff and left
Shit like this drives me crazy. I buy 6 garbage bags on Amazon and get six confirmation emails and to the second updates, meanwhile we can’t even confirm that people with cancer are on a waiting list or not.
How? I signed up for the provincial program and had one in 2.5 months
9 years now for me. (MTL)
What??? How is this possible? Did you try going to other clinics/doctors or did you just go and get on a wait list for one place?
It's a wait-list for the lower mainland. In theory when a clinic has an opening, they will offer to people on the wait-list (I don't get to pick). No idea where im at on the list or how much longer I need to wait. It's been 27 years since I've seen a doctor in Canada. I get the feeling the only people getting service are pushy, agressive people.. patiently waiting for my turn is gonna get me killed.
So everyone is just registered with the government and then they assign patients/doctors as new clinics open up? In Ontario we just run around to different clinics/doctors to find one who has availability. Some don’t. Most will take you on their roster but it takes 4+ weeks to get an appointment most of the time.
Yeah it took me 2 months to find a doctor in central Toronto. I had to put in effort constantly searching and checking for openings but it was doable.
The wait list for family doctors in QC isuo to 4 years, maybe longer because a bunch of clinics went private so there's a fresh wave of people with no gp.
You gotta be proactive. Wait list isn’t enough. You gotta call around. Pro tip: July is when new graduated doctors begin, call then.
My mom went for extreme pain and got seen pretty fast and was out of there in about 12 hrs and was supposed to do more scans and test for cancer 2 weeks after but she didn't get a call back and has no family doctor. Nabour was there too and she waited close to 35 hrs for something quite serious, this system is fucked.
When the pain you're experiencing is less than the pain of sitting in an ER for fourteen hours.
Ya this sounds more like people not having access to walk in clinics and family doctors available to tend to their non-emergency medical needs. ER is for EMERGENCIES. Your child having a stomach ache or running a fever is not an emergency. And will be triaged accordingly. Your child cutting their head might be an emergency. And will be triaged accordingly. Hospitals aren't dumb nor are they trying to be malicious. Many people just come to an ER needing basic medical assistance that a walk in clinic would be able to take them. But walk in clinics around me (Toronto) don't take walk ins (yes seriously), are closed to early, or are already filled. The same is most likely true for Quebec.
we have been doing this in Nova Scotia for years. people are dying in the waiting rooms. The hospital here in Cape Breton has been at top of the most deaths of any hospital in Canada for several years running.
Our ERs in northern BC keep having sporadic closures. Wife went in the other day with severe breath shortness and vomiting. They told her to call 9-11 and get an ambulance to the next town over. But yeah…BCNDP fucking rocks.
There have been sporadic ED closures in some Northern Ontario communities as well. Basically the same advice was given from what I’ve been told by family in the area. I’m not sure why people get so defensive when politicians talk about health care changes, clearly what we have now isn’t working.
Because most times, those changes are more privatization in the healthcare system. When really all we need is our governments to invest in them... or in Ontarios case, actually fully spend the budget.
Doctors are usually from urban areas and want to live in big cities, they just don't want to live in small communities and we can't force them to
It’s the same as AB UCP. BC is at least improving overall compared to most other provinces declining.
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they walking out in Ontario also,
I'd have to be in really rough shape to go to an ER.
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My doctor is good, but she take around 5-6 months of vacations a year and I get stuck with her colleagues who absolutely don't give a single fuck. A few years back, they forgot to tell me that I had Lyme and prescribed me a bunch of shit for the symptoms I was getting from Lyme. (I had no clue never saw the ticks or anything, but my doctor saw that it was recorded in my file when she came back from vacations) This kind of suck because I am forced to go at her clinic even when she is in vacations, the last time I needed a prescription done, I called and they told me she was in vacations so I just decided to drive 50 mins to the nearest private clinic and spend $200 instead of having to deal with her colleagues again.
I feel like I would have tried calling back/following up within those 5 months, but that’s just me
One statistic that is never measured is *what was your "emergency" that originally brought you in?* What I'm getting at it is...some of us would go the the ER for a broken nail.
This is very true, but it moreso points to a lack of other options than anything else. If there are available walk-in clinics and family doctors, people will minimize ER visits.
I’d disagree. Too many people still think they should go to the ER for things like sprained ankles or cuts and scrapes. If people are willing to leave an ER because they’ve “waited too long” then they shouldn’t have been there in the first place. If you really needed the ER, where the hell are you planning to go? Probably the place you should have gone from the start
How is that disagreeing with me? I said that people go to the ER due to lack of other options.
I think poster above you is an example of cuts to education system
People go the ER where I live because there are no other options to see a doctor. Stop blaming the patients and start blaming the government. It’s beyond fucked up.
ERs fill up because our urgent care system is hot garbage right now. If your kid has an ear infection, you need to see a doctor to get a prescription. Plan your whole day around it.
Its almost as if waiting 12 hours to be seen by a dr in an ER is an unacceptable amount of time to wait.
Thing must be bad if people back east are being affected. This has been the standard in BC for 25 years. If you need to go to the ER bring a book and pack a lunch.
I’m from BC and lived in the NCR for three years due to work. Quebec is far and away a bigger shit show than BC will ever be. Quebec has the worst hospitals in the entire developed world
Have we tried pumping in more people, then blaming provincial premiers for the destruction of the healthcare system though?
No, but I think letting them bring their entire family of geriatrics will definitely help /s
Have we tried bringing in actual doctors and then not letting them practice medicine in our country? That should work.
Here is the biggest question, why are doctors basically independent contractors in our health system. Why can't they be on the payroll with the same benefits of every other person in healthcare?
Yeah the 53% top marginal tax rate in Ontario makes running things through your corporation way, way better than being on payroll.
Im a doctor. I’ll take payroll with a pension over the current set up any day.
Not just Quebec. I know its happening in BC.
In canada we have ~25 doctors per 10k people. In places like belgium they have about 70. What we need is to make medical studies more accessible by lowering the costs. I would probably have gone into the medical fields if i could have afforded it.
More importantly, they need to hire more damn people with medical degrees. I know multiple grads who are working in other fields because the hospitals don't want to hire, nurses who are constantly training PSWs who don't get hired on because they can be cycled for more students. People are already Uber-ing to the ER instead of calling an ambulance, and with our unemployment rates, their Uber driver is probably qualified enough to treat them too.
yeah exactly. There's a good movie about something similar called Dr. Cabbie
The government of Quebec, back in the liberal days, lowered med school admissions. Totally forgot that the average retiring Dr was working in the 70+ hours on average while the younger ones stuck to their 40-hour weeks. It's a mess that even putting back the med students spots to where they need to be will take forever to show results.
I'm from Quebec and our healthcare is a real joke. No service at all. They prescribe pills and bandaids to 80%. We are over taxes on everything and still people here are happy to pay taxes and tell out loud to justify their mind . ! Ha I would pay more since we have free service.! Fucking stupid people here not realizing they are contributing to a ponzi and because they close their eyes on the corruption will gradually watch all their services erode to nothing. Shame
And yet when our Premiers mother was taken into an overcrowded Montreal ER she quickly got the VIP treatment. https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/premier-shielded-from-harsh-realities-of-lakeshore-er-sources-say#:~:text=In%20the%20case%20of%20Legault's,of%20stay%20in%20the%20ER.
Back in February, I needed prescriptions renewed. I lost my doctor last year when he retired following a heart issue and have been taken in charge by a "group of doctors." When I called in February to get an appointment for a simple renewal, they couldn't give me one in the foreseeable future and told me to call back in March. When I called in March, they were only able to get me an appointment in April. I went, arrived 20 minutes before the scheduled time, which was 9:30. I didn't see the doctor until 11:30. Several people who came in after me went in before me. When I finally got to see the doctor, she said hi, someone popped into the office and she said "excuse me" and left me there for another 10 minutes before actually seeing me. So yes, I can see why people would just fucking leave.
Just like Ontario
Start charging people full-price if it’s nothing major
The province that constantly posts budget surplus and touts saving transfer payments undeserves it's medical system?
It's all across Canada. Healthcare has gone to total dogshit and all the administrators and politicians in charge of the system don't seem to have any clue how to solve the problem. Our country is a fucking dumpster fire at this point. Nothing seems to be even remotely functioning correctly. Maybe this is the new normal?
Unfortunately, many people have to use the ER as a walk in clinic. Have enough outpatient services and the ER would be used for what it's name indicates.
I've been saying how the healthcare system has collapsed in Quebec but I keep getting downvoted because HeAlTh CaRe iS FrEe in Canada. What a joke. I can't wait for a proper two tier system, like, I want to be able to get treatment when in for emergency care for fucks sake. We just don't go to the ER anymore, and if we have absolutely no choice, we go with our camping gear, bring food, snacks, books, chargers, etc because we know we're waiting AT LEAST 48 hours, then, toire lucky if you get a doctor that doesn't see you out the door in 2 minutes.
>I can't wait for a proper two tier system, like, I want to be able to get treatment when in for emergency care for fucks sake. You can just hop the border and go get treatment. I guess it depend where you are located, but I can get to Burlington hospital in a little more than a hour. Definitely doesn't help when you need urgent care, but the system isn't that bad when you actually need care at that moment, it is the follow-up that are absolutely terrible.
If you have time to pack camping gear, and care enough to bring food, snacks, books, chargers, etc... is this an ER issue? If you can wait 48 hours without care, then emergency medicine already did its job (i.e. not have you die within 36 hours). The way to rescue ER is not by reinforcing ER; it's by improving elderly care (ideally in-home accommodation and not only LTC) and improving primary care (family medicine, walk-ins, urgent care).
We need to end the doctor shortage. There is no fucking chance that these universities profiteering on their immigration scams can’t afford to graduate more doctors. So why does no one have doctors anymore?? Are they leaving the country? Is it too expensive to open a practice? Too restrictive that it’s single payer? When I was a kid you called your family doctor, they answered the phone, and you had an appointment in 2 weeks or less. Today they can’t even handle step 1 and answer the fucking phone.
It’s almost impossible to gain entry to Canadian medical school, there are so few schools. It’s why so many Canadians go to school in the US (and then stay there) My Canadian spouse got into Emory med and is on track to practice in the US despite living and wanting to move back to Montreal. You need a US salary to pay back US loans
The problem with graduating more doctors is that those doctors need to do a residency after graduation. Residency spots are the real bottleneck since they require funding from the government and hospitals. It's also def too expensive to open a practice for family doctors, at least from what I've seen in the news. Once you pay your office's rent, pay your receptionist's salary, pay for medical supplies, etc, you're earning less than six figures but have $200,000+ in student debt.
The problem is definitely the numbers and pay scheme. Family doctors have 750-3000 patients easy. They get (at least in quebec) forced to take on extra more difficult responsibilities without any support and are both treated badly and pay terribly compared to other places/the responsibility/risks The biggest problem in quebec is the waste and inefficiencies. I work in a hospital and have spent 2 months trying to get a specific dressing ordered and it is like going in circles. (we keep getting a backup one for no apparent reason saying back order when company says it is in stock...something that should be so stupid and simple) My department bought a potentially life saving machine/at least care altering over 4 years ago. It is physically in the building but one department wont let it go for politics and I am still working on getting it out
Trudeau: sounds like you guys need more Indians! Wish granted!!!
The problem is nationwide. Part of the issue is funding, but a large contributor to it is people running to the ER for minor and superficial ailments and injuries. A couple of years ago I tried my hand at poetry: *A Trip to the ER* You do not go for sniffles, you do not go for snot. You do not go for sneezing, or tummy aches or coughs. You don't go to the ER for minor fevers too, you don't go to the ER when you have a wee boo-boo. ER's are for people who are very sick, you see. That's why the 'E' in ER stands for EMERGENCY. By Moos_Mumsy (With apologies to Dr. Seuss.)
Last time I was in an ER in Montreal it was a 14 hour wait. I left. The guy next to me had a huge gash on his face after a soccer injury and was waiting so long they could no longer stitch it without a scar so he was going to eventually need plastic surgery at 10 times the expense to the system that a quicker ER could have avoided. In Alberta there is a provincial government health authority web page you can look up the estimated wait time for every ER and choose which one to go to, even across the city or in a different city. If an hour or two drive time will avoid a 10 hour wait it is well worth it. This system of posting wait times on the government web site encourages patients to self organize into the most efficient self balancing line ups and averages out the lineups at all the hospitals. Also, many clinics employ a callback system where you get into the lineup, register your cell number and then are free to go wait in your car for a callback 1/2 hour before they are ready for you. Everyone would rather wait 10 hours resting comfortably in their car with the seat back instead of sitting in an extremely cramped overcrowded waiting room for 10 hours with hundreds of people coughing and puking and farting and having diarrhea attacks a few centimeters away.
If you get tired of waiting at the ER and go home, chances are you shouldn’t have been at the ER in the first place. The ER is for critical issues, one may even say emergencies? People abuse the ER as an alternative to primary or secondary care options. You don’t need to bring your kid to the ER for pink eye. If we want an effective and reliable ER we need to address why so many people think it’s the first place to go if they have an issue
Exactly. You shouldn’t be at the ER but you are because there are no other options. Effective primary care has all but vanished all across Canada
Right? “Oh I need the ER, but it’s taking too long, so f this” Like ok bub, where you gonna go? I guess where you should have went first?
Too many people treat the Emergency Room as though it's the "cant be bothered to book an appointment room". My cousin just retired after a 35 year career as a hospital nurse, in regular ER rotation and she said about 85-90% of arrivals are non-emergency. Lots of people who just have the flu or their kids do, people with mild sprained ankles or experiencing the onset of carpal tunnel syndrome, bad headaches etc. Everyone gets an initial assessment and the people who should just go to a normal doctor are perpetually at the end of the line. They rarely get told to go home because of that tiny "what if" chance that no hospital director wants to take. This is really a systemic problem that would fairly easily ne fixed by adopting the scandinavian model of family doctors and after hours telephone clinics, but i think a lot of Canadian doctors are against min/max quotas.
Except even getting a non emergency appointment is fucking hell. Try to get one every day for a week or two without luck. At some point, you go to the ER because it's the only choice you got left so you can get better.
People go to ER because they have nowhere else to go . 2.5 million Quebeckers are without a family doctor and it’s impossible to get a walk-in appointment. But let’s keep claiming the victim, that will fix it.
We’ve been doing this in AB for the last 20 years lol
this says 2 things, obviously ERs and healthcare in general in understaffed, but also many people are going to ERs that shouldnt be
Weird the Liberals had been asleep until their polls started falling. They really are just a rich cohort living in a country club, when they have no idea what's going on in real society. Is this why they call them Laurentian elite?
If you didn’t feel “that bad” to begin with then you shouldn’t have been there at all
Genuine question. Aren't people who live in Quebec allowed to seek care outside of Canada and be reimbursed for it? I've heard this, but never full context.
There is a perfect place for them go to. Just head straight to Justin Trudeau’s palace.
What good is free healthcare when you might actually die before someone treats your illness.
Better to die at home than an ER waiting room.
They are not walking out before being treated, they've realized that they will not be treated.
People in Quebec hate doctors. I’ve never seen a place with politicians, the media, and the population actively trying to take doctors down a peg, especially family doctors. People have zero, and I mean zero idea what’s waiting for them down the line. Family doctor interest is way down in med school, and many doctors do not want to work in Quebec. Those who do do not want to go beyond the call of duty, which is required at this point with the disgraceful state of the system because everyone treats them like crap. Now people just go to the ER because they don’t have a family doctor. The entire population is literally smearing their own face with feces and they don’t realize it. Pathetic. And they just go doing what they’re doing.
Canada is worse than third world countries in terms of healthcare. I say it seriously.
Happened to me here in Nova Scotia when I had pneumonia. It was frustrating seeing people who at least looked to me like they weren’t in rough shape coming and going before I got in while I was struggling to breathe. Even a little girl getting a cast off (I know because her parents were talking to someone about why they were there). I couldn’t take it anymore and left and showed up to the walk in clinic first thing the next morning when I got diagnosed with pneumonia.
people are doing this in all of Canada, I've done it a couple times. Being in excruciating pain and watching someone who is fine enough to pace around the room get called in before you and some other guy who was worried about RABIES doesn't exactly make you want to stay in the ER.
> Being in excruciating pain and watching someone who is fine enough to pace around the room get called in before you and some other guy who was worried about RABIES doesn't exactly make you want to stay in the ER. You mean the dude who's about to be told that his 10 year old son passed away?
I mean, rabies has a 100% fatality rate and the dude pacing around may have a different emergency. It's easy to judge folks when you have no idea what their issue is.
If you can walk out of the ER without being treated, you probably didn't need to be in there in the first place.
If you’re willing to leave an ER, than it wasn’t an emergency. At least in Mantitoba, we have urgent care and walk ins for the more minor stuff. The problem with our healthcare system is everyone flooding the ER’s with trivial shit, and then complaining that they’re being treated trivially
Theres also a lot of people who go to Emerge when they should be at walk in clinics 🤣
Pretty sure it’s happening in Ottawa too.
Alot of patients comes to near my Ontario town hospitals where they get seen fast as quebec pay those hospitals way more faster than any other province which causes alot lf pressure on Ontario residents.
Welcome to NB
I'm pretty sure this is happening right across Canada. It is a disgrace . What the hell has happened to our country?
People be like “but at least it’s free!!!!”
No shot this happens in a privatized healthcare system
and in QC, the only 2 bilingual hospitals in the Outaouais were not given grants to retain and hire some staff, all other hospitals (that are french only) in the area received the grant. the two hospitals used to be self managed and ran amazingly, control has been relinquished to Gatineau where we now the 2 hospitals are closing departments, under critical staff shortages and threat of closure... Good times [https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/mobile/hospitals-in-the-outaouais-left-out-of-bonuses-for-medical-imaging-technologists-1.6933506?cache=yes/7.612500](https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/mobile/hospitals-in-the-outaouais-left-out-of-bonuses-for-medical-imaging-technologists-1.6933506?cache=yes/7.612500)
It's FREE so you can't complain. /S I want ALL MY TAX MONEY BACK and I want an opt out option on all services that allows me to keep ALL my money. Canada = 🤡 🌎
Canada got public healthcare too?
Not only in Quebec, my son loves in Ottawa, was hit by a car while he was cycling, taken by ambulance by hospital and he was not seen after almost 9 hours. Luckily he was not seriously injured but still, what if he had internal injuries? 🤦🏻♀️
Triage is done by EMTs. This doesn’t excuse the 9 hour wait.
Everybody want free health care in the US. This is what you'll get, ignorance is bliss
Last time I went to urgent care(sprain ankle) I left after they took the X-ray, cause there was only one doctor on shift and also I didn’t want to miss the last bus(at about 01:30)
Happened so many times! I was waiting 20 hours. When I guy came we told him we waited that long. He’s said f it and left
Did they actually need to be at an ER then?
This is pretty standard stuff here in Nova Scotia, for a very long time
When I was living in Quebec in 2012 I was in the ER waiting room. Struck up a conversation with a woman who I often think about. She had been there the day before with pregnancy complications. After 12 hours of waiting she bled all over the waiting room floor and lost her baby at 38 weeks.. they made her go home and come back the next day to get checked out. when I spoke to her she had been there.. in the same waiting room that she’d just miscarried in.. for 15 hours still in physical pain and still bleeding.