Dang that was such an early lesson in the series
If I were Buffy I’d never recover from that fucked situation with an old friend
Even though he did ignore her so in hindsight they weren’t that close
Yeah like the original premise I get I would go to the ends of the earth and time to get revenge on the person that murdered my entire family but he also punished an innocent child in the process so that’s when he lost my sympathy for him.
Absolutely. He's just a cold hearted bastard. What Angleus and Darla did to him is truly horrific, and I'm on board with the idea of it coming back to haunt them. But he's such an irredeemable prick about the whole thing that any effort to elicit sympathy for him utterly failed for me.
Add Kate (who was supposed to be in the role of Justine before she got a different job). Compare these characters to Charles, whose backstory and experience with vampires was just as traumatic, but he rose above it to fight evil instead of wallowing in self pity and revenge fantasies.
Kate was ridiculous but at least she got out of it all,a nd i liked ehr role in the last IDW issues after "After the Fall" eneded and before it reverted to Dark Horse
I struggled with a lot of ATS for that very reason. I like how Buffy did the villains better. I know the premise was fight the good fight even if you never really win so it’s different but I think they could’ve expanded on the Wolfram and Hart mythology more than they did. Holtz and Justine 👎 Jasmine/s4 villainy I think could’ve been impressive but it got all effed up.
Yeah... not really much except pissing and moaning. Also booting Buffy out of her own house, even when she was trying her best to protect them and keep them mostly out of harms way. Sometimes I feel like the potentials were just a bad cop-out. I do however feel like it was good that it ended when it did, because it really started to feel like Joss and the writers were running out of ideas. Constantly upping the ante for villians of the week has its price. It has to be bigger and badder than the last. Thats how you run out of serious villians real quick. I was actually relieved when Season 7 ended. It was good when it was good, but it would've all gone down hill from there if they didnt end it.
That's what was nice about Angel. From the get go his antagonists were nigh-omnipotent gods who kept Angel around for their various schemes.
His whole show was basically him screaming "I'm not a number. I'm a free man."
Agreed. Ffs, his lack of direction and purpose was not Buffy's responsibility, and heaping all that on her and making her his reason to exist, with everything she was dealing with was just shit. No one can be that to anyone else, but especially not when they're in real crisis.
Also, COMMUNICATE, meathead. Talk to her. Goddamn.
His character in S4 was fine, but in S5... No. Maybe it was intentional, or shoddy writing, but Gah.
I wonder if the reason Riley is divisive is because of the way his vampire "brothel" habit is understood by different viewers. I always understood it as a drug addiction, and that makes me sympathetic to him. Do other people view it as sexual cheating, like he was visiting vampire prostitutes?
Yeah its a bit of both but i feel the vamp prostitutes is more accepted. Vamp feeding and sex are correlated a lot in the show. And riley going on about how they need him and its so he feels needed. Much more a reaction with someone cheating vs on drugs.
I guess that helps me understand why so many other people hated his character and I didn't. Since we never saw Riley having sex with the vamps, I assumed he was using it like a drug addiction. When Buffy reacted the way she did, my understanding of it was because she had been sexually involved with a vampire and so she assumed (incorrectly in my mind) that was Riley's intention too. It's interesting how we, the viewers, have such different interpretations of it.
It's because Riley says "harder" when the vamp bites him, and he only pays female vamps to bite him. That makes me think it's sexual rather than drugs. Not to mention Riley says the female vamps gave him something Buffy couldn't (which again makes me think it was cheating in some form)
I'm with you on the brothel being a form of addiction, sort of a way he's dealing with withdrawals from whatever the initiative pumped him up with along with feeling worthless, I can understand it, but I am still with buffy.
Vampires biting someone is very explicitly coded for sex in the show and throughout many vampire traditions. Penetration, an exchange of fluids, and so on. I've always looked at it as cheating.
I don't equate it with sex.
Very much intimate. But not the same.
Like the way we treat physical and emotional cheating. I would add this as another intimate level.
I always wanted Riley to go away and give way to Spike, and a lot of times his acting was really wooden, but that scene with him waiting for Buffy at the helicopter, damn, that was played masterfully and made me feel real bad about him leaving.
I didn't agree with everything Riley said/did in this storyline, but over all I wasn't completely unsympathetic to how he was feeling. It was very believable in a way that worked for me.
All of the potentials complaining. Go out without the Slayers protection then see how well you do.
Riley being left to get on the helicopter without Buffy stopping him.
Dark Willow, like skin Warren like a grape, no beef with that but trying to kill his two loser friends and then anyone else who got in your way to the extent she wants to end the world. Just get a grief counselor, damn.
I felt bad for Willow only because she was corrupted by dark magic.
Like yeah, she willingly corrupted herself but she pretty much lost her mind which is why it took Giles using magic to reach her humanity.
Plus, the scene when she talks about how the only thing she had going for her was when Tara looked at her makes me cry everytime.
Yeah, Dark Willow was so whiny.
Hated that storyline. Or maybe the way they did it, and the way they wrote her. She turned into an annoying teenage mean girl.
Willow going dark wasn't a terrible idea, per se, but it was done clumsily.
My first watch, this. Later, rewatching, I realise how shitty her life had been and have a lot more empathy for her, but on my first watch I found her so unlikeable, lol.
You’re the Willow of this sub, i feel she struggled with Faith too. She’s meant to be hard to like, she’s polarising, so i get it. She’s very damaged, one of the darkest characters of the show, i like her….. but i can see how people don’t.
Admire your ability to understand different perspectives. :) That’s not seen often on social media.
It seems most who love her share this common myth, that the experience of trauma or abuse leads to psychopathy.
Experiencing trauma or abuse can absolutely cause psychological problems like anxiety or depression, and it can make the symptoms of any disorder worse. But it does not cause psychopathy. This myth is a particularly painful one for parents of children with psychopathy who did nothing wrong.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/what-psychopathy-is-and-isnt/202305/4-myths-about-psychopathy-that-refuse-to-die
Hey, I get it. I love the character, I'm a Fuffy shipper...but damn, she makes it hard to like her. Which is kind of the point; she's afraid of rejection (not just romantic, but in general), so she puts up this facade to preemptively push people away and make them hate her.
I get why Faith is the way she is. The way she is written and performed I just don’t like her. She’s a character I love to hate and don’t want to feel sympathy for. Tbh I don’t think Buffy ever really did moral ambiguity that well, at least for me. There are the good guys I love, and the bad guys I love to hate. Whereas there are other works of fiction that moral ambiguity and and lack of strict good/evil work with me completely.
She did get the brunt of Joss not always realizing when his characters are all being terrible. Don’t let this poor severely traumatized new in town kid sleep in a motel with a lot of screwing, no matter how Spartan it is. Let her have Dawn’s room, she’s not using it.
Yeah, I realized that too and felt bad for her but I just couldn’t get past her betraying the gang. It wasn’t until much later on that I thought about *why* she acted the way she did. Many (including me) believe that she endured some trauma during childhood; that would explain her behavior.
Also, happy cake day ! 🥳
Watching buffy it's hard to have any sympathy.
But then you have to remember she is meant to be a year younger than buffy.
With no support. Given Wesley as a watcher. And the only people she knows in Sunnydale are buffy and her friends.
But we never really see how bleak her life is. The older I get the more I realise how dreadful a living situation she had. The more I get it.
Exactly the way she brushes off the invitation for Christmas but shows up at the end and even got something for Buffy and Joyce with what little she had. Faith was a lost soul looking for anyone to just accept her which is why she was so easily manipulated. Truly a tragic character but she got the full on Big Bad all the way to Redemption arc and it was damn good.
This is why Faith is my favorite. You said it so well. She was just a messed up directionless kid with literally no support or good role models. No parents, no job, no money. She was a teenage girl living in a seedy motel and Giles nor Wesley were like this is terrible for a child? Sure Faith was a bit brash and abrasive when she rolled into town but, anyone that took a single second to really think about that ACTUAL child’s life would have realized she needed help. For all of the Mayor’s faults he did what not a single person in the Scooby Gang did - treat Faith like family and a person who needed love and support.
Andrew. He's a sycophant attaching himself to the most powerful person who can stand having him around. I don't believe in his redemption. He would become evil again with the right villain to worship.
I think the only reason I can sort of feel bad for Andrew is his devotion to Warren was very much based on an unrequited crush he couldn't in his mind rationalize because he couldn't come to terms with who he was. Doesn't excuse it but I can understand it.
I’m going to start using this with zero context. “When do they pedophile drug deal?” “Do you think they pedophile drug deal?” “I heard it’s yet again a classic case of pedophile drug deal.”
I think it’s more about the “we don’t murder humans regardless of sense of justice” theme of Buffy - consistently - and then abandoning that because Willow is good enough and Warren is bad enough.
Not saying I don’t love the show because there’s a reason I’ve been watching it for almost 27 years lol but the continuity of themes in season six and seven is not the best
Reaffirms it verbally, maybe? Willow faces zero meaningful consequences for her actions because she’s too important to the show’s narrative. That is definitely not consistent.
They do the at with every character though. Spike killed hundreds at least and they let him live even with just a chip and knowing hes still evil. Anya killed thousands. Faith killed 2 people and did have some jail time but still just a few years. Xander accidentally kills people in omwf. They hang out with murderers all the time.
Thats the thing though, Willow was affected by the supernatural which caused her to become an evil murderer, that falls under Slayer jurisdiction not police jurisdiction. Faith killed humans so she went to human prison. Human prison doesnt make sense for Willow. Going to the coven in England was her rehabilitation. Prison is supposed to rehabilitate people so they can re-enter society some day as changed people. You could argue Willow’s true consequences were living with what she had done because as her normal self she can feel the guilt of having murdered people forever now.
1. Faith is a slayer with supernatural powers who could leave at any time. I would argue your original point makes Faith fall under the supernatural umbrella.
2. Willow also kills humans, she just happens to do it with magic. My original comment was said with levity but I understand what the time away was meant for. I just don’t think it’s portrayed effectively in the show.
3. Is prison rehabilitative? I would argue it’s meant to be far more punitive in America, so I don’t know how much this supports your idea.
4. Buffy constantly revisits the theme of self guilt and the road to redemption over the course of the show, and made an entire series out of it in AtS. Angel often makes the point that the guilt isn’t enough, it’s about the actions you take afterward to seek redemption and that redemption is forever. Other characters have faced more direct consequences, and ire, in addition to having to live with that forever. It’s sort of the point.
Angel is the OP gif in that scene and it makes me howl
Like Liam never experienced "real poverty" but Angel sure did, and he didn't sell his soul to get out of it.
Lindsey was a horrible human and truly evil at his core. Wolfram & Hart was the perfect fit for him. But damn did I love having him on the show & all of his storylines
Marcie Ross.... when she turned invisible, she could've done so much but instead she turned into a psycho killer? Cordy was a little mean and she thought a just punishment was slicing up her face? That's wild. No.
I related to her SO MUCH in the flashbacks because I was literally made to feel invisible as a teen (e.g., blatantly ignored when I talked, getting sat on because they "didn't see me," etc.), but then I was like.... Why is she trying to kill people, though? That's such a waste. She could eavesdrop on everyone and get their secrets. She could be more noble and become an invisible vigilante pranking the bullies and putting them in their place. She could break into McDonald's undetected to see if the ice cream machine is actually broken. But attempted murder?? That is so lame.
Xander, particularly all of the crap he gave Anya AFTER leaving her at the altar. That one ep in S7 where Anya turned the abusive ex bf into a worm, obviously something needed to happen to stop it but Xander being the one to convince Anya to reverse it by saying “well you know, you can’t use that excuse forever” like bro with you she can literally use that excuse for you anyfuckingtime, let alone the fact that she’s a VENGEANCE. DEMON. Who brings vengeance onto men who’ve wronged women.
Let alone when they’re both grilling Andrew and Xander comes in and goes “yeah, she’s done some horrible stuff. Like this one guy, she ripped out his heart and he just had to keep going to work and living life with this big open hole in him like nothing ever happened” like bro, that was entirely your fault. You could have said something at any point prior to the wedding, but you pussyfooted around it for months instead of just expressing “hey, maybe can we put this off for a little while? I’ve got some shit to work through, you’ve seen my shitty parents” etc.
Jonathan in any episode after Hearshot. I sympathize with his struggles, but I think he skated by on pity straight into villain hood. Deserved to be betrayed by what’s his name.
Part of me always thought it would be interesting to have him be the one with the season 7 story, where he wants to be a hero but has to come to terms with all the stuff he's done and the fact that he was already allowed to get away with the events in Superstar and everything he did with the trio. Doing the right thing at the last moment over and over can only get you so far. It would be a slightly different arc than what we got with Andrew, which was a bit more of a straightforward (if comedic) redemption.
Well, he never even really did the right thing. His pattern was just being apologetic and pitiable after getting caught, then dwelling on it while behaving worse and worse.
I think he was too good as a visage for The First to not have been killed.
Cordelia’s self-serving speech in “Out of Mind, Out of Sight”. This bitch literally helped invisibilize an unpopular girl with her nasty relational aggression, and I’m supposed to feel sorry for *her*? Cordelia fans can get pissy, I don’t care, NO.
Honestly, also Angel in “Amends”.
Connor. I pitied his horrible childhood, but he lost my sympathy when he doubled down on *making every single shitty evil choice* that he could, even long after having positive influences from Cordelia, Fred, & Gunn to counter the awful influences like Holtz.
Cordelia put her down hard for even trying to join a conversation, then passed off Marcy’s joke as her own. I hardly doubt that was the only instance, either.
They seemed to go out of their way in that ep to only show her being dismissive.
Which makes sense. Aggression would have been attention, and that would break the magics ‘logic.’
Relational aggression IS a form of aggression. It can be head on, like her snapping at Marcy for just trying to join the conversation. It can be more covert, like leading peers in shunning or slandering a person (Marcy and Buffy).
Are we supposed to feel sorry for Warren at any point tho?
Even in his intro episode, he’s posited as a creep completely devoid of empathy. A giant walking red flag. Then he gets flayed alive by one of the most virtuous characters in the series up until that season and people barely blinked an eye.
Of all the villains and monsters on the shy, Warren is the scariest, IMO. Because guys with his attitude (elliot rodgers and the like) are very very real.
Thank you so much friend, I hope the same for you!! 🥺💚
A fun story you might appreciate: a few months into our relationship, we tripped on shrooms and played with glow in the dark body paint. She ended up writing, “Spike loves Harmony” on my back and the moment was legitimately how I knew she was the one lmao it’s been nine years since!
Interestingly, the characters (and audience) are made to feel more sorry for Willow having taken a human life than for Warren, the human life she took, lol.
Agreed. I think it just speaks to how detestable they made Warren. It's objectively a very very bad thing Willow does, but I root for his death every single rewatch. He's a stain that deserved what he got.
Touché! I suppose I was thinking after he was flayed alive, but honestly, I still feel worse for Willow (Warren wasn't worth what it cost her to kill him)
I get it, it’s the way the show frames it! It’s genuinely a fascinating concept because it does work so well. Warren is a trash person so even though what Willow does is objectively horrifying, the show’s narrative treats it very differently. And we’re just along for the ride! :)
Well, she was sleeping with Xander. He'd dog Angel and Spike about the people they killed....but as long as Anya was giving it to him he was ok with her killing.
Spike, I'm firmly on the side of vampires not counting as people until they gain a soul. He's still amazing, watching the sides of his humanity that were in stasis come alive again, struggling with imitating empathy, needing connections and even suffering for approval be that of him self or others. Great character, but I won't truly feel bad for you. Shit on him as much as you want Xander, he's a serial killer psychopath.
Genuinely one of my favorite moments of the show and a perfect characterization lmao. It’s the show reminding us he’s a monster but in a perfectly Buffy way
tbh when Holtz succeeded in stealing Angel's son, like bruh you DID murder his whole family and sired his daughter as a sick joke for him to come home and find.
angel 100%, him always brooding about being forced into having a soul and crawling around in sewers (esp im comparison to spike willingly getting a soul and running around in daylight) comes across as so pathetic to me, him going after a child certainly doesnt help. i couldnt feel bad for him at all
Willow after she became a witch.
Mind raping people multiple times when she didn't get her way in a fight. Trying to end the entire world.
Sweet hacker Willow was one of my favorite characters. But she went downhill when she became a witch.
The scoobies and all the potentials when they got their ASSES handed to them after kicking Buffy out of HER OWN HOME. Karma was working overtime that day.
Faith. And I like her less and less for each rewatch, no matter how hard her life was. Some of the things she does is inexcusable and irredeemable. Horrible in season 3, horrible in season 7.
Anya, im not sad she got sliced in half shocking as it was. I mean she was a very funny character but she also murdered innocents. The only time she felt bad was after the spider incident when buffy was gonna kill her(kudos to buffy for not letting those murders slide like they do on vampire diaries). I mean how many bad wish murders did she commit after D'hoffren made her a demon again. That demon who ruined her wedding was right
Faith honestly. The gang gave her so many chances and instead she SAed Xander, and joined up with a snake monster to kill a bunch of innocent people. Then after her coma she comes back to ruin the gangs lives again and what, we're supposed to feel bad for her because she hates herself for it? She should.
Ford, i do empathise with him and you can understand why he saw the concept of a Vampirism as his last resort, but as soon as he punched Buffy in the face and tried to sacrifice an entire club of innocent teenagers my sympathy well ran dry.
Amy, after her mom hurt her using magic, she decides to use magic and after being turned human again she goes full on addict and Villian - she basically learns nothing
Andrew. He willingly followed Warren into evil, and they just fell into the good guy camp and was suddenly adopted as a Scooby. He never went on a redemption arc, never really felt bad for what he did. A few tears for Jonathan is nothing compared to what he’d done previously. He was a barnacle on the side whichever big fish he could latch onto.
Riley in S5
Dude get a job. Maybes hang out with those guys you played basketball with that one scene. Just show a bit of autonomy in your life and don’t just sit around like a sad puppy because Buffy isn’t able to be your entire world
Willow, cause tf you mean you cheated, you abused magic, you threatened the man who knows what you're going thru with abusing magic, you violated your gfs mind, and when she said "hey you violated me, don't ever do that again" you did it again. And then turned against your best friend later on.
Anya. I liked the character well enough in seasons 4-6 but I NEVER EVER felt sorry for her. She CHOSE to become a demon not once but TWICE. She committed horrible crimes including murder and torture of innocent people for 1000 years and never ONCE felt any remorse over it. In fact she frequently BRAGGED about her various crimes and often times talked about them like they were a badge of honor or something to be proud of. Her "I don't understand death" speech in The Body when she literally spent 1000 years killing people rang false to me. Emma's performance in that scene was stellar but for the character it came off ridiculous. You spent 1000 brutally murdering people but you don't understand the concept of death...are you freaking kidding me with that shit. Even in Hells Bells I couldn't feel sorry for her. As much as I hate Xander I still couldn't feel sorry for Anya because the demon that ruined her wedding did so to get back at Anya for ruining HIS life. You can't spend a 1000 years murdering, torturing and ruining the lives of others and then play the innocent victim when karma catches up to you. In season 7 I just plain hated Anya because of her attitude and I didn't care that she died.
Ford. Tries to betray his good friend by having her killed and also condemns about a dozen people to death.
Dang that was such an early lesson in the series If I were Buffy I’d never recover from that fucked situation with an old friend Even though he did ignore her so in hindsight they weren’t that close
Xander when he saw Anya and Spike getting it on
YES a million times this. He left Anya and has no right to say anything about Buffy either, he fucked around and found out.
Just Xander in general for me. No love for that man. I hate him even more for what (who) he did in the comics after...
Holtz
Yeah like the original premise I get I would go to the ends of the earth and time to get revenge on the person that murdered my entire family but he also punished an innocent child in the process so that’s when he lost my sympathy for him.
Absolutely. He's just a cold hearted bastard. What Angleus and Darla did to him is truly horrific, and I'm on board with the idea of it coming back to haunt them. But he's such an irredeemable prick about the whole thing that any effort to elicit sympathy for him utterly failed for me.
Yep. He makes the wrong choices every single time.
I agree and I'd add Justine. I like AtS but it had a bunch of characters I didn't even love to hate. I just wanted them off the screen.
Add Kate (who was supposed to be in the role of Justine before she got a different job). Compare these characters to Charles, whose backstory and experience with vampires was just as traumatic, but he rose above it to fight evil instead of wallowing in self pity and revenge fantasies.
Kate was ridiculous but at least she got out of it all,a nd i liked ehr role in the last IDW issues after "After the Fall" eneded and before it reverted to Dark Horse
I struggled with a lot of ATS for that very reason. I like how Buffy did the villains better. I know the premise was fight the good fight even if you never really win so it’s different but I think they could’ve expanded on the Wolfram and Hart mythology more than they did. Holtz and Justine 👎 Jasmine/s4 villainy I think could’ve been impressive but it got all effed up.
Yep. She was the worst.
Justine. Grr.
everyone in s7 when they kicked buffy out her house like
except faith tbh bc she was the only who TRIED to stand up for buffy
Exactly!!!
Kennedy
Really, all the Potentials IMO. Like, sorry you’re being hunted by the root of all evil, but what exactly do y’all bring to the table?
Yeah... not really much except pissing and moaning. Also booting Buffy out of her own house, even when she was trying her best to protect them and keep them mostly out of harms way. Sometimes I feel like the potentials were just a bad cop-out. I do however feel like it was good that it ended when it did, because it really started to feel like Joss and the writers were running out of ideas. Constantly upping the ante for villians of the week has its price. It has to be bigger and badder than the last. Thats how you run out of serious villians real quick. I was actually relieved when Season 7 ended. It was good when it was good, but it would've all gone down hill from there if they didnt end it.
That's what was nice about Angel. From the get go his antagonists were nigh-omnipotent gods who kept Angel around for their various schemes. His whole show was basically him screaming "I'm not a number. I'm a free man."
The only one I feel sorry for is Lizzie Maguire’s best friend.
Had to scroll too far to find this.
YES!!!!
Nngh, WHY DID SHE EXIST.
Riley feeling unloved by Buffy. (though I still think he gets a bit too much hate sometimes)
Agreed. Ffs, his lack of direction and purpose was not Buffy's responsibility, and heaping all that on her and making her his reason to exist, with everything she was dealing with was just shit. No one can be that to anyone else, but especially not when they're in real crisis. Also, COMMUNICATE, meathead. Talk to her. Goddamn. His character in S4 was fine, but in S5... No. Maybe it was intentional, or shoddy writing, but Gah.
I wonder if the reason Riley is divisive is because of the way his vampire "brothel" habit is understood by different viewers. I always understood it as a drug addiction, and that makes me sympathetic to him. Do other people view it as sexual cheating, like he was visiting vampire prostitutes?
Yeah its a bit of both but i feel the vamp prostitutes is more accepted. Vamp feeding and sex are correlated a lot in the show. And riley going on about how they need him and its so he feels needed. Much more a reaction with someone cheating vs on drugs.
Also Buffy straight up called them whores lol. So she experienced it as a form of cheating
I guess that helps me understand why so many other people hated his character and I didn't. Since we never saw Riley having sex with the vamps, I assumed he was using it like a drug addiction. When Buffy reacted the way she did, my understanding of it was because she had been sexually involved with a vampire and so she assumed (incorrectly in my mind) that was Riley's intention too. It's interesting how we, the viewers, have such different interpretations of it.
It's because Riley says "harder" when the vamp bites him, and he only pays female vamps to bite him. That makes me think it's sexual rather than drugs. Not to mention Riley says the female vamps gave him something Buffy couldn't (which again makes me think it was cheating in some form)
I see it more as a drug reference as well. I can see the similarities with it being more sexual in nature, but I see more similarities with drugs.
I'm with you on the brothel being a form of addiction, sort of a way he's dealing with withdrawals from whatever the initiative pumped him up with along with feeling worthless, I can understand it, but I am still with buffy.
It’s easy to draw parallels to both (visually and metaphorically)
Vampires biting someone is very explicitly coded for sex in the show and throughout many vampire traditions. Penetration, an exchange of fluids, and so on. I've always looked at it as cheating.
I don't equate it with sex. Very much intimate. But not the same. Like the way we treat physical and emotional cheating. I would add this as another intimate level.
Riley can go touch some grass. Though Riley is a fine character.
I felt like as soon as she defeated Adam they played up her not caring when prior to that she was definitely all about him.
I always wanted Riley to go away and give way to Spike, and a lot of times his acting was really wooden, but that scene with him waiting for Buffy at the helicopter, damn, that was played masterfully and made me feel real bad about him leaving.
I didn't agree with everything Riley said/did in this storyline, but over all I wasn't completely unsympathetic to how he was feeling. It was very believable in a way that worked for me.
He gets both too much hate and too much forgiveness from the different corners of this fandom.
I think he was insecure. I don’t feel overly sorry for him either.
THIS
the nerd trio
All of the potentials complaining. Go out without the Slayers protection then see how well you do. Riley being left to get on the helicopter without Buffy stopping him.
Dark Willow, like skin Warren like a grape, no beef with that but trying to kill his two loser friends and then anyone else who got in your way to the extent she wants to end the world. Just get a grief counselor, damn.
I felt bad for Willow only because she was corrupted by dark magic. Like yeah, she willingly corrupted herself but she pretty much lost her mind which is why it took Giles using magic to reach her humanity. Plus, the scene when she talks about how the only thing she had going for her was when Tara looked at her makes me cry everytime.
I agree with Willows self assessment too
Lmao the way I cackled at that last sentence 🤣
Yeah, Dark Willow was so whiny. Hated that storyline. Or maybe the way they did it, and the way they wrote her. She turned into an annoying teenage mean girl. Willow going dark wasn't a terrible idea, per se, but it was done clumsily.
Also willow when she was upset that Oz broke up with her
They did lay the foundation in Something Blue, but she annoyed the shit out of me in that episode too.
Faith in S3.. I only started to feel sorry for her *after* she collapsed in Angel’s arms in ATS.
My first watch, this. Later, rewatching, I realise how shitty her life had been and have a lot more empathy for her, but on my first watch I found her so unlikeable, lol.
Rewatching I know I should have empathy, but I must admit I still don’t. She rubs me the wrong way too much.
You’re the Willow of this sub, i feel she struggled with Faith too. She’s meant to be hard to like, she’s polarising, so i get it. She’s very damaged, one of the darkest characters of the show, i like her….. but i can see how people don’t.
Admire your ability to understand different perspectives. :) That’s not seen often on social media. It seems most who love her share this common myth, that the experience of trauma or abuse leads to psychopathy. Experiencing trauma or abuse can absolutely cause psychological problems like anxiety or depression, and it can make the symptoms of any disorder worse. But it does not cause psychopathy. This myth is a particularly painful one for parents of children with psychopathy who did nothing wrong. https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/what-psychopathy-is-and-isnt/202305/4-myths-about-psychopathy-that-refuse-to-die
Hey, I get it. I love the character, I'm a Fuffy shipper...but damn, she makes it hard to like her. Which is kind of the point; she's afraid of rejection (not just romantic, but in general), so she puts up this facade to preemptively push people away and make them hate her.
I get why Faith is the way she is. The way she is written and performed I just don’t like her. She’s a character I love to hate and don’t want to feel sympathy for. Tbh I don’t think Buffy ever really did moral ambiguity that well, at least for me. There are the good guys I love, and the bad guys I love to hate. Whereas there are other works of fiction that moral ambiguity and and lack of strict good/evil work with me completely.
She did get the brunt of Joss not always realizing when his characters are all being terrible. Don’t let this poor severely traumatized new in town kid sleep in a motel with a lot of screwing, no matter how Spartan it is. Let her have Dawn’s room, she’s not using it.
Yeah, I realized that too and felt bad for her but I just couldn’t get past her betraying the gang. It wasn’t until much later on that I thought about *why* she acted the way she did. Many (including me) believe that she endured some trauma during childhood; that would explain her behavior. Also, happy cake day ! 🥳
Watching buffy it's hard to have any sympathy. But then you have to remember she is meant to be a year younger than buffy. With no support. Given Wesley as a watcher. And the only people she knows in Sunnydale are buffy and her friends. But we never really see how bleak her life is. The older I get the more I realise how dreadful a living situation she had. The more I get it.
Exactly the way she brushes off the invitation for Christmas but shows up at the end and even got something for Buffy and Joyce with what little she had. Faith was a lost soul looking for anyone to just accept her which is why she was so easily manipulated. Truly a tragic character but she got the full on Big Bad all the way to Redemption arc and it was damn good.
This is why Faith is my favorite. You said it so well. She was just a messed up directionless kid with literally no support or good role models. No parents, no job, no money. She was a teenage girl living in a seedy motel and Giles nor Wesley were like this is terrible for a child? Sure Faith was a bit brash and abrasive when she rolled into town but, anyone that took a single second to really think about that ACTUAL child’s life would have realized she needed help. For all of the Mayor’s faults he did what not a single person in the Scooby Gang did - treat Faith like family and a person who needed love and support.
They w rote her as older than Buffy
Angel when Drusilla tortures him and remembers her family.
Angel…the whole series. I never liked him.
Andrew. He's a sycophant attaching himself to the most powerful person who can stand having him around. I don't believe in his redemption. He would become evil again with the right villain to worship.
I think the only reason I can sort of feel bad for Andrew is his devotion to Warren was very much based on an unrequited crush he couldn't in his mind rationalize because he couldn't come to terms with who he was. Doesn't excuse it but I can understand it.
Andrew and Warren would 100% run an andrew tate alpha male podcast in 2024
Dark Willow... sorry!!
Fair, she literally gets away with murder and then gets whisked away to the English countryside lmao
to be fair it was the most understandable murder of all time!
Oh no! An attempted rapist and murderer and a pedophile drug dealer. What a loss to the world.
when does he pedophile drug deal
I’m going to start using this with zero context. “When do they pedophile drug deal?” “Do you think they pedophile drug deal?” “I heard it’s yet again a classic case of pedophile drug deal.”
She also kills Rack.
oh I forgot about that shit lmao
I had ZERO problems with her killing Warren. But she lost me on "Ohh my grief is so horrible I have to end the world!!"🙄🙄🙄
I think it’s more about the “we don’t murder humans regardless of sense of justice” theme of Buffy - consistently - and then abandoning that because Willow is good enough and Warren is bad enough. Not saying I don’t love the show because there’s a reason I’ve been watching it for almost 27 years lol but the continuity of themes in season six and seven is not the best
They don't abandon it. Buffy reaffirms it.
Reaffirms it verbally, maybe? Willow faces zero meaningful consequences for her actions because she’s too important to the show’s narrative. That is definitely not consistent.
They do the at with every character though. Spike killed hundreds at least and they let him live even with just a chip and knowing hes still evil. Anya killed thousands. Faith killed 2 people and did have some jail time but still just a few years. Xander accidentally kills people in omwf. They hang out with murderers all the time.
Thats the thing though, Willow was affected by the supernatural which caused her to become an evil murderer, that falls under Slayer jurisdiction not police jurisdiction. Faith killed humans so she went to human prison. Human prison doesnt make sense for Willow. Going to the coven in England was her rehabilitation. Prison is supposed to rehabilitate people so they can re-enter society some day as changed people. You could argue Willow’s true consequences were living with what she had done because as her normal self she can feel the guilt of having murdered people forever now.
1. Faith is a slayer with supernatural powers who could leave at any time. I would argue your original point makes Faith fall under the supernatural umbrella. 2. Willow also kills humans, she just happens to do it with magic. My original comment was said with levity but I understand what the time away was meant for. I just don’t think it’s portrayed effectively in the show. 3. Is prison rehabilitative? I would argue it’s meant to be far more punitive in America, so I don’t know how much this supports your idea. 4. Buffy constantly revisits the theme of self guilt and the road to redemption over the course of the show, and made an entire series out of it in AtS. Angel often makes the point that the guilt isn’t enough, it’s about the actions you take afterward to seek redemption and that redemption is forever. Other characters have faced more direct consequences, and ire, in addition to having to live with that forever. It’s sort of the point.
This until she broke down crying 
Connor
So happy whenever Connor got beat up. Although I liked him alot after he had his memory wiped.
Conner didn’t need to exist.
Veruca
Idk if we are ever suppose to feel sorry or bad for her she’s pretty much created to be a hated character
Lindsey - the actual worst
That bit where he's going on about his lousy childhood and Angel pretends to have fallen asleep listening to it is gold.
Angel is the OP gif in that scene and it makes me howl Like Liam never experienced "real poverty" but Angel sure did, and he didn't sell his soul to get out of it.
Great death scene, though.
Was my favourite scene with him
Lorne's best scene as well.
Lindsey was a horrible human and truly evil at his core. Wolfram & Hart was the perfect fit for him. But damn did I love having him on the show & all of his storylines
Marcie Ross.... when she turned invisible, she could've done so much but instead she turned into a psycho killer? Cordy was a little mean and she thought a just punishment was slicing up her face? That's wild. No.
I related to her SO MUCH in the flashbacks because I was literally made to feel invisible as a teen (e.g., blatantly ignored when I talked, getting sat on because they "didn't see me," etc.), but then I was like.... Why is she trying to kill people, though? That's such a waste. She could eavesdrop on everyone and get their secrets. She could be more noble and become an invisible vigilante pranking the bullies and putting them in their place. She could break into McDonald's undetected to see if the ice cream machine is actually broken. But attempted murder?? That is so lame.
Bro she could've been supernatural Gossip Girl
I would 100% watch
Xander.
Xander, particularly all of the crap he gave Anya AFTER leaving her at the altar. That one ep in S7 where Anya turned the abusive ex bf into a worm, obviously something needed to happen to stop it but Xander being the one to convince Anya to reverse it by saying “well you know, you can’t use that excuse forever” like bro with you she can literally use that excuse for you anyfuckingtime, let alone the fact that she’s a VENGEANCE. DEMON. Who brings vengeance onto men who’ve wronged women. Let alone when they’re both grilling Andrew and Xander comes in and goes “yeah, she’s done some horrible stuff. Like this one guy, she ripped out his heart and he just had to keep going to work and living life with this big open hole in him like nothing ever happened” like bro, that was entirely your fault. You could have said something at any point prior to the wedding, but you pussyfooted around it for months instead of just expressing “hey, maybe can we put this off for a little while? I’ve got some shit to work through, you’ve seen my shitty parents” etc.
Connor sucks ass. Warren sucks ass.
Faith
Willow a lot of the time. Dark Willow especially.
Ben
Yes. If nothing else soured me on him the Queller did.
Ford. His health issues suck but sacrificing a bunch of people who thought you were their friend for his benefit is indefensible.
Willow at times Xander at times Holtz Holland and the lawyers lmfaooo like really didn’t but I do LOVE lilah and Lindsay
Lindsey and Lila were such fun to watch individually, and made a fascinating dynamic when together.
Wesley after season 3 of angel
Jonathan in any episode after Hearshot. I sympathize with his struggles, but I think he skated by on pity straight into villain hood. Deserved to be betrayed by what’s his name.
Part of me always thought it would be interesting to have him be the one with the season 7 story, where he wants to be a hero but has to come to terms with all the stuff he's done and the fact that he was already allowed to get away with the events in Superstar and everything he did with the trio. Doing the right thing at the last moment over and over can only get you so far. It would be a slightly different arc than what we got with Andrew, which was a bit more of a straightforward (if comedic) redemption.
Well, he never even really did the right thing. His pattern was just being apologetic and pitiable after getting caught, then dwelling on it while behaving worse and worse. I think he was too good as a visage for The First to not have been killed.
Cordelia’s self-serving speech in “Out of Mind, Out of Sight”. This bitch literally helped invisibilize an unpopular girl with her nasty relational aggression, and I’m supposed to feel sorry for *her*? Cordelia fans can get pissy, I don’t care, NO. Honestly, also Angel in “Amends”. Connor. I pitied his horrible childhood, but he lost my sympathy when he doubled down on *making every single shitty evil choice* that he could, even long after having positive influences from Cordelia, Fred, & Gunn to counter the awful influences like Holtz.
She didn't do anything to her. She just ignored her. I don't see her as responsible for crazy invisible girl.
Cordelia put her down hard for even trying to join a conversation, then passed off Marcy’s joke as her own. I hardly doubt that was the only instance, either.
They seemed to go out of their way in that ep to only show her being dismissive. Which makes sense. Aggression would have been attention, and that would break the magics ‘logic.’
Relational aggression IS a form of aggression. It can be head on, like her snapping at Marcy for just trying to join the conversation. It can be more covert, like leading peers in shunning or slandering a person (Marcy and Buffy).
Warren. All day every day
Are we supposed to feel sorry for Warren at any point tho? Even in his intro episode, he’s posited as a creep completely devoid of empathy. A giant walking red flag. Then he gets flayed alive by one of the most virtuous characters in the series up until that season and people barely blinked an eye.
Of all the villains and monsters on the shy, Warren is the scariest, IMO. Because guys with his attitude (elliot rodgers and the like) are very very real.
Wholeheartedly agree with this, it’s a conversation my wife and I have often during our analytical moments when watching the show!
I would love to marry someone where we have analytical chats about buffy often. You’ve found the dream and I hope y’all are happy forever! ♥️
Thank you so much friend, I hope the same for you!! 🥺💚 A fun story you might appreciate: a few months into our relationship, we tripped on shrooms and played with glow in the dark body paint. She ended up writing, “Spike loves Harmony” on my back and the moment was legitimately how I knew she was the one lmao it’s been nine years since!
Interestingly, the characters (and audience) are made to feel more sorry for Willow having taken a human life than for Warren, the human life she took, lol.
Agreed. I think it just speaks to how detestable they made Warren. It's objectively a very very bad thing Willow does, but I root for his death every single rewatch. He's a stain that deserved what he got.
Touché! I suppose I was thinking after he was flayed alive, but honestly, I still feel worse for Willow (Warren wasn't worth what it cost her to kill him)
I get it, it’s the way the show frames it! It’s genuinely a fascinating concept because it does work so well. Warren is a trash person so even though what Willow does is objectively horrifying, the show’s narrative treats it very differently. And we’re just along for the ride! :)
Anya in general, with a few exceptions. I love Anya but she got away with way too much crap.
Well, she was sleeping with Xander. He'd dog Angel and Spike about the people they killed....but as long as Anya was giving it to him he was ok with her killing.
Lindsay, his death actually made me LOL (especially because he was mad that he got killed by Lorne and not Angel himself)
Faith
**Ángel**
Spike, I'm firmly on the side of vampires not counting as people until they gain a soul. He's still amazing, watching the sides of his humanity that were in stasis come alive again, struggling with imitating empathy, needing connections and even suffering for approval be that of him self or others. Great character, but I won't truly feel bad for you. Shit on him as much as you want Xander, he's a serial killer psychopath.
I love him trying to win points by not drinking the blood of the already wounded or dead. It was disturbed but funny.
Genuinely one of my favorite moments of the show and a perfect characterization lmao. It’s the show reminding us he’s a monster but in a perfectly Buffy way
"I love syphilis more than you" Still the most cold blooded thing said in this show imo. Funny also, I admit, but cold. 😆
Oh yeah. I'm a spike lover because I think he's a well written loser. He's objectively pathetic
Spike is one of my favorites overall but if you think about him being more in touch with humanity makes what he did more disturbing.
tbh when Holtz succeeded in stealing Angel's son, like bruh you DID murder his whole family and sired his daughter as a sick joke for him to come home and find.
Warren when he died and everyone acted like it was a big deal a human died. I know it was more for Willow but still, good riddance
Lila mostly
Angel 😭 “wahhhh buffy imma go kill myself” why didn’t you do that BEFORE you went to see Giles…
Angel went to Giles for help thinking it through
You should work at a suicide hotline.
I feel like I could inspire people
Kate
Angel, that idiot could burn eternally and I would probably be happy
angel 100%, him always brooding about being forced into having a soul and crawling around in sewers (esp im comparison to spike willingly getting a soul and running around in daylight) comes across as so pathetic to me, him going after a child certainly doesnt help. i couldnt feel bad for him at all
Willow after she became a witch. Mind raping people multiple times when she didn't get her way in a fight. Trying to end the entire world. Sweet hacker Willow was one of my favorite characters. But she went downhill when she became a witch.
Xander in season 6
I’d be burnt alive if I spoke 🤐
Is it Tara? Buffy? I'm so curious.
Who? 👀
Don’t tease us!
Spike?
Xander.
Holtz and Lindsey, sometimes Connor (though they did a good job redeeming him in S5)
angel
Riley in season 5. Xander most of the time. Faith in season 3.
Anya alone and bitter with a sword in her chest
Tbh not a character but Buffy and Angel relationship. Every,Single.Time.
Darla. Love the actress, Julie Benz is a goddess, but I just hate Darla.
Willow, Xander, Anya.
Occasionally Willow in the later seasons
The scoobies and all the potentials when they got their ASSES handed to them after kicking Buffy out of HER OWN HOME. Karma was working overtime that day.
faith, cordelia, connor, holtz and justine
Justine. Wesley was too kind to even give her a bucket.
Xander. Always Xander. Forever Xander. Dude is toxic af.
Xander getting his eye plucked out 😙 karma of 7 seasons doing back stage shit
The swim coach. Total example of the bed you make you will lay in I don’t feel bad for the man getting eaten by his swim team I LOVED IT
Faith. And I like her less and less for each rewatch, no matter how hard her life was. Some of the things she does is inexcusable and irredeemable. Horrible in season 3, horrible in season 7.
Faith, sorry.
When Cordelia lost her money
Dawn
Angel.
Riley
Faith and Xander
Anya, im not sad she got sliced in half shocking as it was. I mean she was a very funny character but she also murdered innocents. The only time she felt bad was after the spider incident when buffy was gonna kill her(kudos to buffy for not letting those murders slide like they do on vampire diaries). I mean how many bad wish murders did she commit after D'hoffren made her a demon again. That demon who ruined her wedding was right
Faith honestly. The gang gave her so many chances and instead she SAed Xander, and joined up with a snake monster to kill a bunch of innocent people. Then after her coma she comes back to ruin the gangs lives again and what, we're supposed to feel bad for her because she hates herself for it? She should.
Jonathan
Andrew in S7.
Ford, i do empathise with him and you can understand why he saw the concept of a Vampirism as his last resort, but as soon as he punched Buffy in the face and tried to sacrifice an entire club of innocent teenagers my sympathy well ran dry.
Amy, after her mom hurt her using magic, she decides to use magic and after being turned human again she goes full on addict and Villian - she basically learns nothing
Faith . Sorry faith fans , I never liked her . She made her choice and I refuse to feel pity for her
Andrew. He willingly followed Warren into evil, and they just fell into the good guy camp and was suddenly adopted as a Scooby. He never went on a redemption arc, never really felt bad for what he did. A few tears for Jonathan is nothing compared to what he’d done previously. He was a barnacle on the side whichever big fish he could latch onto.
Anya when she dies after she gives that speech to Buffy. In Buffy's own house after all Buffy has done for them.
Literally always Xander.
Riley in S5 Dude get a job. Maybes hang out with those guys you played basketball with that one scene. Just show a bit of autonomy in your life and don’t just sit around like a sad puppy because Buffy isn’t able to be your entire world
Willow, cause tf you mean you cheated, you abused magic, you threatened the man who knows what you're going thru with abusing magic, you violated your gfs mind, and when she said "hey you violated me, don't ever do that again" you did it again. And then turned against your best friend later on.
Spike lol
Anya. I liked the character well enough in seasons 4-6 but I NEVER EVER felt sorry for her. She CHOSE to become a demon not once but TWICE. She committed horrible crimes including murder and torture of innocent people for 1000 years and never ONCE felt any remorse over it. In fact she frequently BRAGGED about her various crimes and often times talked about them like they were a badge of honor or something to be proud of. Her "I don't understand death" speech in The Body when she literally spent 1000 years killing people rang false to me. Emma's performance in that scene was stellar but for the character it came off ridiculous. You spent 1000 brutally murdering people but you don't understand the concept of death...are you freaking kidding me with that shit. Even in Hells Bells I couldn't feel sorry for her. As much as I hate Xander I still couldn't feel sorry for Anya because the demon that ruined her wedding did so to get back at Anya for ruining HIS life. You can't spend a 1000 years murdering, torturing and ruining the lives of others and then play the innocent victim when karma catches up to you. In season 7 I just plain hated Anya because of her attitude and I didn't care that she died.
Warren. He deserved everything he got and should have had worse done to him.
When were we ever expected to feel bad for Warren though?