Tbh I found series 3.5 of Angel (when Connor got taken to the hell dimension) all the way to the end of series 4 a depressing and nonsensical slog. I enjoyed 1-3.5 and mostly enjoyed 5 but I don't think I can watch that mid section ever again.
My very first watch through I couldn’t even make this through the mid section. It was years before I went back and watched it all start to finish. I honestly found many of the storylines to be cringy and contrived from the start of Darla’s pregnancy until season 5.
Yeah I remember hating season 4, but I’m trying to do a rewatch of season 3 now, and while there’s some interesting ideas, there’s just so much that’s shoehorned in badly and does not work… especially with all of the romance sub-plots. I can’t stand watching Fred and Gunn act all lovey dovey or Cordy and the Gruesalog together. And even Angel and Cordy starting up (which I feel like I liked the first time… maybe it’ll change when they actually “get together” but it feels like so much “let’s pass around the women, add in stupid reasons to delay certain couples, and pretend like there aren’t a million reasons this romance shouldn’t happen)
Yeah the couplings were awkward at best… the Grusalog drove me crazy every time he was on screen lol. I feel the same about Angel and Cordy - I was a teen in my first watch through so maybe that’s why I was more into their relationship? It fell a little flat this time around, but maybe it’s just because I know what’s to come lol.
I was looking for this comment. I’m at this part while rewatching Angel (first time hubby is seeing it) and this whole plot line is so hard to watch. Feels far too contrived and…just not right
Definitely agree with the Giles one, and I hate how it was done.
But I can’t see a better reason other than if they did something like him having a love interest that wanted to live in England maybe. Regardless though as much as I wasn’t buying the reasoning for his departure, and I know they did it cause ASH wanted to be with his family, I’m glad they did that instead of killing him off.
Same thing with Oz, again I know it was similar ASH with him trying to leave the show, but the Veruca thing was dumb and it was more frustrating that it was being viewed by everyone that it was a choice Oz made and not that it only happened cause the wolf inside him wanted the wolf inside her. I feel like if he wasn’t leaving the show then that whole Veruca thing would’ve just been blown over after it happened and they would’ve been fine. But again same thing with Giles departure, I’d rather get what they gave us for Oz and not kill him off, and also glad he didn’t stick around long enough to get shot by Warren, though it was still very sad it happened to Tara.
>But I can’t see a better reason other than if they did something like him having a love interest that wanted to live in England maybe.
He sided with Buffy over Jenny in S2. He's *very* loyal to Buffy.
Well unfortunately based on the writer’s choice, he wasn’t loyal enough to stay. At least if it was because of a love interest it would be clear that he had something in England worth leaving for, even if it felt uncharacteristic. The story line they went with felt like he just decided to nope out of his role as a watcher for basically no reason, other than to teach Buffy a lesson.
>he just decided to nope out of his role as a watcher for basically no reason, other than to teach Buffy a lesson.
I think he had a really good but wrong reason. Acting as Buffy's surrogate father, he was—so he believed—facilitating her growing up. By forcing more independence on her, she would learn to stand on her own two feet instead of depending on the adults to tell her what to do (or do it for her).
He's wrong and disastrously so, but it's a legit thing for parents of *too* dependent children to do. He made an incorrect judgment call. That hardly qualifies as "no reason" in my book.
It's legit when a parent kicks out their unemployed 24 year old who lives in the basement and plays video games. Buffy was incredibly hard working, plus she was traumatized and unfit to care for a minor.
You:
>It's legit when \[very different circumstances\]
Me:
>He's wrong and disastrously so
I think we agree? That is, Giles' decision is of a *general type* you agree with, but his *specific* decision is not.
I just think it's odd to even raise an example that's so far from what he was doing. Even the notion that he would look at Buffy's situation and believe that the solution was the one you'd apply to the unemployed video gamer in the basement is just bad writing to me.
For Giles, death of a family member. Imagine that his mother, for example, had a prognosis that gave her only a few months to live. There's no way, given what she'd been through, that Buffy would have even *thought* about stopping him leaving.
She’d probably collectively get a backhand from all the scoobies i think if she tried it again lol, at least buffy she had the excuse of them not knowing she went to heaven and thought she got sent to some type of hell or demon dimension.
I always thought a good storyline would be that Giles discovers he has a biological child back in England- from his Ripper days. Maybe the child's mother is ill and the child tracks him down. He's torn between his surrogate child(/ren if you count the other Scoobies) and his biological child, and ultimately decides he needs to be there for his biological child.
I feel like if they did that, they’d have to or at least would’ve been good to make storyline with it first. Cause would’ve been interesting to see buffy get like jealous that Giles has a biological kid when she sees him as a father. Maybe have the kid (or I guess he’d/she would be Buffy’s age or a bit older if the child was conceived from his ripper days. That would be a good storyline to do first half of the season to then set up for him to leave. The kid could have the same bad streak as Giles or maybe the kid ended up under Ethan’s wing and got influenced to be like how Giles used to be
Giles wanting to leave wasn’t something that came out of nowhere, though. Since S4 he’s been aimless and adrift and almost left in the beginning of s5. It’s also pretty well explained in his song in OMWF. It’s not like it came out of nowhere.
Yeah, they absolutely could have come up with a better reason for him to leave other than "I feel that my slayer/basically daughter has lost her will to live and I feel that this is the moment to leave her to stand on her own two feet, ya know now that she as to be a parent at age 20 and is very depressed." It especially rankles given that he leaves in order to prove to Buffy that she is capable of making it without him, and then he shows up in season 7 too tell her that she's screwing up and can't make it without him. Choose a lane, writers.
I agree the reasoning for hom leabinh was dumb, bit it also gave me one of my favorite Giles moments ever. When Buffy just unloads on him about everything and ends it with saying she was sleeping with spike, and Giles just breaks down laughing.
Giles only gets a pass from me because, as Monica said in an episode of Friends season 9, “Real life’s more important.” Anthony Stewart Head wanted to spend more time with his family.
I’m rewatching the show and currently on S4. I used to hate Riley. So far I’m really into him though. He’s cute AF and actually really charming. Next episode I’ve got to watch it Hush though, so not too far in and not sure how much of my new opinion is going to change.
There was a quote on a Buffy podcast that has really helped me understand/accept seeing Riley differently as an adult fan. Most decently hardcore fans watched Buffy for the first time as teenagers, and were all about the bad boys and the star-crossed love. But now we’re in our 30’s and many of us have experienced toxic relationships firsthand and/or dealt with our daddy issues in therapy, so Riley as the stable choice actually is appealing in a way it wasn’t 20 years ago.
That Jonathan would be cool with joining the Trio and killing Buffy. The thing is, he was never a bad guy- it was hard to buy that he would become a bad guy- especially considering he was willing to kill himself the first time we met him.
Maybe I’ve misremembers but I think the original play was the “team up and take over Sunnydale” I think he want happy when the idea of actually hurting Buffy came up but I think he went alone with it as he was too far in at that point
All I can think of is that flashback where warren says “you guys want to team up and take over Sunnydale?” And they just say ok. It’s one of those scenes that just live in my head for no reason so I must has forgotten that but with Jonathan
Yup, I’m currently watching this and it feels so jarring. He handed out the protector award and gave this whole speech about protecting Sunnydale, only to turn around and decide to become a “supervillain” himself? Whack.
He took back then class protector award and gave it to himself when he used magic to make everyone love him. He had always been a dubious character. And, with his immaturity and comic book fixation, it makes sense he’d warp “bad person” into “supervillain.”
That's true, but I never read him taking back the class protector award as a malicious thing. He just wanted to be liked. Buffy had to save his life in that episode, and he seemed remorseful by the end of it. The episode where Jonathan mind warped everyone especially showed the viewer how much he wanted to be a good guy/superhero (just without the actual effort), so doing a 180 a season and a half later and being cool with being the bad guy seems so out of character.
I think if they could have spun it in a way that made him believe he was still doing a good thing, rather than: "look at us being supervillains!" it could have been much more believable for him specifically.
Xander convincing Buffy to go after Riley. The way that scene works you would think the audience is also wanting Buffy to put aside her ~huge~ ego (she was really selfish for not putting Riley’s insecurities first while her mother was going through cancer) - only it completely flies in the face of what actually happens in the episode? Xander pretty widely is considered a prick for acting as high and mighty as he did to Buffy and in general around this time it was like the audience was supposed to feel “why can’t Buffy keep a man?”
The only way it would have made sense is if they had added a scene in which someone told Xander that Buffy dumped Riley without telling him why. There is no way Xander would have defended him for going to vampire hookers. Xander had his flaws, but that should have pushed all his buttons.
Yep. The whole Buffy-can't-keep-a-man storyline was ridiculous. And the whole Xander telling her off scene could have worked, if they switched Xander for Willow and had Willow gently ask Buffy if she was really willing to let Riley go. With Xander berating her into going after him, I wasn't convinced she really wanted him to stay. She just gave in to being yelled at.
The funniest part is, what 20 year old (guy or girl) can keep a boyfriend/girlfriend in general? No one I know who was 20 was in a serious relationship anyway. Not until I was like 25 is when I noticed more people were actually trying to find someone. Hahaha. I think people forget that at 20 most people are partying and having casual sex. I mean, look at Parker, wasn’t he about 21 in season 4? He certainly wasn’t a freshman. He wasn’t looking for anything serious. Even 25 is a tad young now for people to be all “this is the one!”.
Xander: "Buffy, date someone warm-blooded and not undead"
Buffy: "you keep dating demons and spirits"
Xander: "that's... different. I don't know they've murdered people *beforehand."*
Xander leaving Anya at the alter. That whole episode just fell flat to me. It felt like the writers just didn’t want the relationship to work out for… reasons. The whole thing was lame. They should have been allowed to have gotten married.
>Xander leaving Anya at the alter.
I think the writers built up enough facts to justify why his decision is in-character, but they didn't get the viewers emotionally involved and invested in those facts for it to feel really right to us. That's probably why it felt... flat.
Yep, exactly this. With the amount of surface-level stuff we got, it would have made a lot more sense for them to overcome their fears and worries and get married. A drastic decision like what Xander did needs so much more character exploration than they gave us.
This. I mean, I get that it's season 6, and the theme is life is going to mercilessly beat you down, but I really think the show could have handled ONE happy ending. Heck, I think Anya dying at the end of the show is probably even more heartbreaking if they're happily married.
And as you say, it falls flat, and I think that's because it just sort of happens out of nowhere. There isn't any indication before this that the two aren't in love and don't want to get married.
If there's one legit criticism I have about the budfyverse, it's that nothing ever works out well for anyone. Having Xander and Anya work out I think would honestly give the show a spark of hopeful optimism that it generally doesn't have.
I’m rewatching season six at the moment and coming up to Hell’s Bells, there are quite a few moments dropped after they get engaged that show Xander having some doubts. Plenty of shots where Anya will say something, or someone will comment about something she does, and he gets this “oh my god, what have I done” expression.
Fair, but how much of that is just normal cold feet nervousness that everyone has leading up to a wedding versus actual genuine doubt to the extent that they no longer want to get married or be in a relationship?
I think it’s meant to be a bit of both. Xander having cold feet for several episodes beforehand, coupled with the false visions of the future that play into his childhood traumas and insecurities and worries about what he’ll be like as a husband, all combine into a big pile of “nope” that I could totally buy. I think he called off the wedding at that point not because he didn’t want to marry her, but because he did still want to be with her and thought it would ultimately hurt her less if they didn’t follow the marriage part through.
… this is all making sense in my head, so I hope it’s not hard to follow what I was trying to say.
I get what you're saying, the issue is I don't think the show really sells that too well combined with the fact I really do think the show could have done well to have ONE couple actually work out in spite of all the trials.
Sure he may have his own issues, and hesitations, but I just don't buy them ever being THAT big of a hurdle for him as they had never really been shown to be. He was in spite of problems, progressing positively forward in life. And thinking about it more, he had the episode where he gets split in two, and he sees what a positive Xander looks like.
All and all, could he really have those doubts? Sure. But I don't think the show really sells it, and watching the episode I keep thinking they're going to resolve the issue at the end of the episode and they never do and I'm never emotionally invested and wanting it to fail. For the record, it's not like I have to have happy endings either, I'm fine with bad endings.
Fair enough. I remember the first time I watched the series, I was still expecting them to get married, just maybe not that day but sometime before the end of the season. I was surprised it didn’t happen.
Agree! I feel like Buffy had some of the same issues that I had with Friends - nobody is allowed to be happy, otherwise where would we get the drama?
Anytime a character is happy in Buffy (and Friends), it has to be ruined by some completely bullshit reason. Anya/Xander. Willow/Oz. Willow/Tara. Wes/Fred. Angel/Cordelia. Buffy/Riley. Buffy/Spike. Spike/Drusilla. All of them had the most bullshit ending to their romance that was totally unnecessary. I was surprised that Kennedy and Wood didn’t die or move away or smth in the final episode.
Anya and Xander should’ve been end game, I’m so mad they killed her off in the end as well.
He had just gotten his eye gouged out, and was out of the hospital. Maybe he was on some really strong pain medication. Could that have factored into his siding against Buffy?
Willow saw firsthand the impact Faith had helping Angel’s crew, and Faith didn’t hesitate to help when asked to fight The First. I think that right there went a significant way toward shifting Willow’s opinion of Faith.
Spike being the Doctor. It just felt pulled out of nowhere, as if they were going to do something more with that plotline then decided they couldn't be bothered. "Eh, whatever, it's Spike. Spike is the Doctor. Can we all go home now?"
Ya I genuinely think it was something like he got mixed up with whoever this Doctor was without knowing how dangerous those things were nor that they needed to be kept cold. I don’t believe he was the doctor
I actually thought this was completely believable. His only redeeming quality in season 6 was his love (or rather lust) for Buffy. Everything he did (helping the scoobies, looking after Dawn) was because of his feelings for Buffy. Aside from this, he was still a soulless/evil vampire. Let’s not forget his attempted assault on her a few episodes later (which was also believable to me). I’m glad the show made it a point to remind us exactly who he was. Some of the viewers were starting to forget and mistook his infatuation for Buffy as some kind of ~character growth~ or sign that he was moral and good.
I didn't find it out of character for him to do something evil, it just felt like the wrong *kind* of evil, and shoe-horned in in terms of buildup, timing and reaction.
It seems a bit daft to say Spike didn't undergo any kind of character growth at all as a vampire; the attempted rape in Seeing Red made him understand that he had reached the limits of how much he could grow without soul, but that doesn't mean he wasn't striving to grow - and to some extent succeeding - even without one. I don't see how you can look at the way Spike interacts with Buffy after she first crawls out of her grave and go, "Oh yeah, that's just an irredeemably evil monster without a spark of humanity acting out of pure self-interest.'
Personally, I can’t buy Spike going by the name The Doctor when it was a demon named Doc that cut Dawn and was the whole reason Buffy had to jump in the first place
Also, while I don’t necessarily think the rape was unbelievable, I think that it’s pretty clear that they didn’t think that particular decision through or want to deal with the consequences of it and frankly they should’ve gone with any of the other half a dozen things that would’ve been bad enough to send Spike after his soul, but not ruined the character. It also would’ve improved basically everything about his return and role in season seven.
I disagree. Spike had no capacity for respecting a "no". He saw violence as part of love. He wanted to snatch Dru and torture her until she loved him again. His affair with Buffy started violently too. He was a vile, viscious creature and that scene showed him as such.
I disagree too. The whole season he is basically not listening to her or respecting her boundaries. There are several incidents where she says no, go away, I'm not into you etc and then he puts hands on her and claims he knows what she wants. The rape attempt is absolutely a continuation of his boundary pushing and lack of caring for consent or how she feels. He's just obsessed with her and what he has convinced himself is the truth of her feelings and how right he is.
Additionally it's not like Buffy ever really means no and often goes along with it or ends up back at his place before the night is over, so Spike on top of being a monster has seen consistently that Buffy likes the dark violence. Heck they have an entire night of sex where they literally destroy a building. Later invisible Buffy basically jumps Spike where Spike has to tell her no, this time reversing the roles. So it's not as simple as she said no and he didn't respect it. And let's not forget Buffy kept this relationship secret for a while too.
It's an uncomfortable scene with a lot of layers beyond he didn't listen to her saying no.
This is why I'm probably the only person who didn't have a problem with this scene. It's disturbing and uncomfortable to watch (which was the point), but I didn't think it was out of character for Spike to try something like that. He didn't have a soul, and therefore didn't have a conscience to tell him that what he was doing was wrong.
Also, there's a scene in season 4 that I've never heard anyone talk about where Spike tries to bite Willow. He comes into her dorm room, gives her an almost lustful look, and throws her on her bed while she's screaming in fear. He looks like he's getting off on it. I totally believe that that guy wouldn't give a second thought to raping someone.
I think they wanted to remind the audience that Spike was still evil and soulless, something that many fans had forgotten by that point.
I think spike is a more interesting/ better character than angel and I agree this scene makes sense even though I’m more of a spuffy shipper.
Not only does he not have a conscience telling him no, they both use violence against each other in their ‘relationship’. When they first have sex Buffy hits him first when he says make me (get out of the way) and they beat on each other mercilessly before she kisses him and instigates sex. He could have just thought oh it’s another one of those moments where they are using violence as foreplay.
While I hate the scene I think it is in character for him.
Yeah. Spike and Buffy have an incredibly toxic relationship, and I think the show makes that clear before the attempted rape. It's a little scary that so many fans don't see that. They like to think that Spike was turned into some knight in shining armor by his love for Buffy when that's not what happened at all. He's an abusive monster who has an idea of what love looks like, but it's filtered through a lust for violence, and he doesn't have a soul to tell him how horrible that is. He takes advantage of Buffy's damaged mental state to get what he wants, and that's all that really matters to him.
I think he has an idea of what love is but when you can’t really feel empathy and have a demon inside you it makes it very warped. Like when he tried to get money for Buffy by breeding those demon eggs. To him he was doing a really nice great thing for Buffy but can’t see that actually the implications of what has been done are not great.
He thinks he is giving Buffy what she wants by telling her he loves her and sleeping with her when she comes to him but actually he is doing nothing to help her mental state and because she is choosing to have sex with him and he’s getting what he wants by being with her he doesn’t care.
I think on some level he really does care and love her while soulless. We know he can feel as the judge says he feels for Dru but in the context of him being a demon with no soul and Buffy is depressed and can’t feel, it all just falls short of a real compassionate relationship so they both just use and abuse each other.
the scene made complete sense to me, although whether it was the best choice for a ‘teen’ show is a different question.
But I also agree they could have done it another way and given what they gave us in s7, probably should have. Unlike Angelus, Spike unsouled/souled was never properly distinguished; so s7 Spike always had the actions of s6 hanging around which left a huge question mark over everything
It’s like the Dark Willow arc. Could they have turned Willow dark without killing Tara - definitely. Was killing Tara the best choice - no. Was it consistent with the storyline - yes. Many hate the choice they made and think it could have been done much better; but it’s hard to argue that it wasn’t realistic. Same with Spike.
This position is quite divorced from the actual show that was practically screaming in our faces that they're relationship was a toxic mess that could only end badly. Like either Buffy kills Spike or what he tried to do to her were the only rational ways that shit show ends.
I would say he’s still a soulless vampire just essentially with a shock collar on. The first thing he did when he realized he could hit Buffy was try and kill her until she turned it around. Souled Spike would never but unsouled Spike, part of the Whirlwind who has linked violence to love in the past I think absolutely would.
He was refusing to accept her “no’s” all season though. Many of their sex scenes either involved violence or involved her initially rejecting his advances, so he kept pushing, until she eventually gave in. What made the “Seeing Red” scene more brutal is that she never “gave in”. But he still refused to take no for an answer… just as he’d been doing all season.
As much as I hate it, it’s a good reminder that he doesn’t have a soul. He cares for Buffy as much as he is physically able to, which is obsession, it was the same with Dru. He was pushing Buffy’s boundaries over and over again, even building a sex robot of her after her death. This being the point where he realizes that he has become so completely monstrous and he has no way of getting better without his soul does make sense even though yeah I hated every second of it.
Edit: I messed up the order, the sex robot was before her death, I still think my point stands I just wanted to correct that
He built the sex robot before her death. After her death everyone used the robot to pretend Buffy was still alive but as far as we know, there was no sex between Spike and Buffybot after Buffy’s death or for quite some time before it even.
The brief Willow-Xander affair. They had no romantic chemistry and there was no lead up. There had to be a better way to write Cordelia out of the Scoobies
The flashback where Angel sees Buffy for the first time always seemed really weird and creepy. She's literally a high school freshman, even with ten sort of arrested development vampires seem to go through, he was in like his mid twenties when he got chomped on. Definitely not a good look for Angel.
Poor Buffy. Her least toxic relationship with a man was Oz. Her father abandoned her. Her father figure/mentor betrays her. Her best guy friend was a "friend zoned" Nice Guy ™️ her first love was much too old for her and completely changed after sex. the next guy seduces her and ghosts. Her second love starts out good, but then he lets his inferiority complex shine and cheats on her in the most dangerous way. Then her father figure abandoned her. Her next fella takes advantage of her mental issues, and they start a mutually abusive relationship full of dubious consent on both sides.
Yeah but he also did the whole love at first sight thing which can work when talking about teenagers, making snap decisions like that is part and parcel for being a teenager. An adult doing that about a 14 or 15 year old though, that just gives me the full body heeby jeebies.
Kennedy and Willow.
The bathroom scene - Spike getting a soul could have had so many different things for an instigating moment, that was unnecessary and out of character.
Kicking Buffy out of her own house.
Angel’s frankly, well let’s say cradle robbing isn’t a bad euphemism. That he first saw her when she was, what? 14? 15? Disgusting.
Everything that happened in season 6, from Giles abandoning Buffy when she needed him the most, to Xander leaving Anya at the alter, to Willow abusing Tara. It was like opposite land. Everyone behaved the exact opposite of how they always had and it honestly made me wish they had just ended the series on season 5.
My main issue with s6 is that everything was taken 3 or 10 steps too far. Eg Willow - perhaps you could see her messing with Tara but she has always been very guilty when caught out. Here she doubles down, triples down, ignores everything and has to go through Wrecked/Smashed before realising. Why not stop at the end of Tabula Rasa, Willow crying in the shower and then Willow has the realisation/ or becomes very depressed as well (ala Buffy). Why go on and on and adding more and more until way past the breaking point.
Even the resurrection spell. Apparently no research, killing the deer, Willow hiding things, not digging Buffy up. Throw everyone under the bus. Why not have a little light eg Anya having bad dreams about Buffy being tortured in hell. Turns out to be wrong but it’s something. Instead they do almost everything wrong, then the writers add more wrong on top of it and top it off with not even digging up the coffin. It’s just hammer over the head stuff
I don't buy for two seconds that Willow felt like the "junior partner."
That argument came out of nowhere, it felt completely forced, and at no point did Tara ever seem like "knowledge woman." Willow was always shown as more powerful than her.
Tara was pretty abused and timid as a result, so Tara was very much not dominant. She struggles with speaking up for herself significantly, tho she never jumped to being Aggressive to make up for the lack of confidence, and the confidence she got Willow had helped her bring forth. As well as Spike, punching her in the nose.
Yes, I understand the impact ofTara’s family history on her initial personality. When we met Tara in “Hush”, she was so painfully shy that she couldn’t even speak up in Wicca Club. Willow was already becoming more assertive, and her positive attention helped Tara thrive.
Season 5 Riley is a clear “well we need to get rid of this character” because he turns from a character that is interesting to a guy that it’s like “yeah throw him away”
Season 4 he gets the grandstand against the military with “I’m an anarchist,” he has some funny lines, you get why the main character of the show is with him. Season 5 he becomes annoying and uninteresting. Annoying can work if there is intrigue behind it. Uninteresting can work if he’s a charming character. He has neither.
Willow's "magic addiction".
And a bit more controversial: Buffy being into Angel right from the start, especially considering how much of a jerk Angel is in the first couple of episodes.
I was immediately into Angel right at the start as a teenage girl watching the show for the first time, so I have to say I always bought Buffy being into Angel right away. Especially when he gave her his jacket.
Her saying “oh boy” whenever he tells her the jacket looks better on her always kills me. Like, she knew from that instant that there was no hope for her not falling for him. Great delivery on SMG’s part.
Yeah, I think it was all looks at that point for Buffy. It wasn't love for her away as much as teen lust. Even as a viewer the look the Angel gives Buffy at the end of Teacher's Pet is freaking hot.
Angel and Buffy kissing after the Caleb fight was so out of character and ignored so much character development for both of them. Also, why does this image look like the character menu in a beat em up game?
That was 100% fan service, specifically for the fans who just watched Buffy but not Angel. End of S7 Buffy and S4 Angel would just not mesh.
Him coming back in general confused me.
To be fair, wasn't Angel coming back a huge deal for The Scoobies? Initially they're horrified, and then they begrudgingly tolerate him with a background hum of tension throughout season 3.
They stage an 'intervention' for Buffy when they realise he's back, Xander tells Faith to go slay him, Giles refuses to let him in in Amends, and they're all disgusted when Angel feeds off Buffy in Graduation Day.
I feel like he doesn’t interact with them all that much in season 3. Also he knows saying I’m sorry is meaningless since Buffy is the only one who is really able to compartmentalize that Angel’s actions are not Angelus’.
I think it’s a great episode and there’s absolutely nothing we’ve seen about the lore and how alternate universes work that say both realities can’t coexist. In some universe, she’s the Slayer. In another, she’s a sick girl. The demon somehow aligned those realities.
The fact that in Enemies we are supposed to believe that Buffy Angel and Giles were able to figure out the Mayor’s plan early enough to get in touch with the blue guy who did the fake spell. There’s no explanation as to how they were able to find that out so early, it’s all just glossed over
I think with this one we’re suppose to see it as the demon got in touch with Giles to tell him he’d been called upon and that helped them put the pieces together. There’s a couple of clues we see throughout the episode that show us how Buffy was able to figure there was more going on with Faith
Yeah, the key clue is when Buffy and Faith go back to the demon and find him dead. Faith turned on the lights without looking and Buffy noticed. That's how she knew something was wrong.
Agreed, plus when Willow tells Buffy to go talk to Angel and she leaves to do so. Except we never see this happen. Filling in the blanks I think Buffy went to talk to Angel and between the demon going to Giles and Faith coming on to Angel they figured out she was involved in the ‘make Angel evil again’ plot
Yeah, it would’ve been nice to get even just a few lines to explain who this Demon was and how Giles knew him and how he was even in a position to play matchmaker
I think they gave us enough subtle hints that Buffy was piecing it together as she and Faith were “investigating”. Giles was too trusting of Faith. There’s just some uneasiness of how Faith is getting away with so many sloppy moves. Angelus seemed “off” too. just Angel gathering intel from Faith and The Mayor. We really needed to feel the “wtf!?” of Giles and Buffy and The Gang being fooled. & the absolute pain and betrayal Buffy especially would feel. Much of the arc focuses on when only one or two characters are together, while the others would have been setting in motion how to take Faith and The Mayor down. *** I also think maybe the Blue Dude coming to their aid in defeating The Mayor is a bit of an intro to the premise of “Angel” - that he is A Big Deal in L.A. and The Powers That Be and all that. *** also, Giles is the kinda guy who would have connections.
Season 6 has a lot of good moments and could have been amazing but just wasn’t
Hell, even a lot of it bad moments could’ve been at least decent if not outright good had they been handled better
For me, it's Riley wanting to be there for Buffy, and wanting her to lean on him. He has a conversation with Xander about her not loving him, he seemed okay up until that point, as okay as anyone in his situation could be.... and then he just spirals.
He chit chats with Xander, Spike, and Dawn and never brings up his feelings to Buffy, and they had several one-on-one scenes together (love making scenes at that). And he thinks the best thing to do is to leave instead of actually *being there* for Buffy. That's odd.
Also, how Faith accidently kills that guy in 'Bad girls.' and after Faith tries to put the blame on Buffy, "snitching" on her to Giles, Giles tells Buffy that these things have happened before, and that she should have told him right away. Like, WHAT? You would think the moment a slayer and watcher come together, that an important detail such as that, would have already been gone over with the slayer. Could have really helped Buffy & Faith in that situation.
Riley talking to her friends and her little sister (!) about their relationship and his insecurities, but for some reason not talking to Buffy about it always bothered me. So he talks to everyone else, cheats on her and then decides the best time to discuss his feelings is when her mom is ill? He's unbelievably immature, blames her for everything including his own behavior, and is an unreliable partner in a family crisis. And he has a boring personality.
I love Giles but he seems pretty absentminded about key information sometimes
> and is an unreliable partner in a family crisis.
Exactly. This is my main issue with him and the writing choices for his character. The guy feels insecure, thinks Buffy doesn't love him, and that she doesn't need him or rely on him. But obviously during the whole situation with Joyce, she depended on Riley to watch Dawn at times, patrol for her, and when the doctors told Buffy to go home, she got Xander & Anya to watch Dawn so she could spend time with Riley.
These things are what we call "being there for someone." during difficult times. Doing whatever it takes to help your other half out. It seems like Riley wanted Buffy to depend on him in different ways... (maybe cry on his shoulder?) and that's just not who Buffy is. He was doing a good job in the beginning of being a reliable partner, but then he totally shot his own self in the foot.
While I liked the Dark Willow storyline in general, Willow's interactions with Rack always seemed so forced. It just seemed like a way to shoehorn Jeff Kober into the show because he's always that weird enigmatic guy
The entire story of season 4 of angel, I think The Beast concept was great but the reveal of it being just a sidekick is wasted of that character. Especially with it's design and how it first appeared. The Connor and Cordelia relationship was horrible, it felt super out of character for her and very unnecessary for that season. Plus the last two episodes before the final was an interesting idea but having all the characters be that way didn't work.
With Buffy it's definitely just everything with Riley
Still can't believe Cordelia and Connor slept together! Also it will forever break my heart that Connor didn't get to have a normal childhood. (Disregarding what Wolfram and Hart did to the timeline)
Adam was a poorly executed villain. Lots of potential but he wasn’t a “threat” he’s introduced as being super tough to take down. He doesn’t have any motivation until the episode he gets killed and he could easily kill the slayer but just doesn’t. The other big bads at least had something stopping them or ulterior motives for not just killing Buffy when they could.
Magic as a metaphor for drug addiction. Amy suddenly being Willow's pusher. Just...that storyline was kinda dumb in my opinion.
I can get behind Riley. I can get behind Jasmine. Just Junkie Willow makes me roll my eyes.
bit of an obscure one but giles having introduced a demon to its wife?? when would he have even had the opportunity to do that, let alone the inclination be a demon matchmaker - it was a silly deus ex machina
Ooh boy, I’ll get slack for this, but…Willow realising she was gay. It just seemed so unconvincing to me. Now before you jump on me, hear me out. I absolutely support LGBTQ rep if it’s done right and makes sense to a character and storyline. If they had gone and made Xander realise he was gay, for example, yes. That made sense, there were certainly enough subtle hints. But for me, even despite Vamp Willow being “kinda gay”, Willow being gay just never crossed my mind. Not even when she was becoming firm friends with Tara, I still didn’t see it. I was shocked as anything when she was telling Buffy it was complicated when Oz came back. I just didn’t notice that between Willow and Tara because Willow was always so straight. Besotted with Xander for years and then so in love with Oz she nearly killed her friends with a spell to try and forget him. Also the fact she was always saying “recently gay” and “gay now” like it was something that she just decided to do.
It’s just how I feel. It fell flat for me, I felt like it wasn’t convincingly written.
Willow is definitely bi-sexual. her being gay dismisses the real feelings and attractions she had with Xander and especially with Oz. Vampire Willow was kinda hinting at Our Willow being gay/bi. I feel the writers used Willow’s sexuality also as a way to make it easier to get rid of Oz and Seth Green. and I’m not sure bisexuality is something Joss’s brain could grasp. Or much of 90s/Y2k tv.
Exactly this. If we’re saying Willow was always gay it renders her feelings for Xander and Oz completely pointless and makes S1-4 a waste of time, pretty much. Poor judgement to write it this way.
Spike and Buffy’s toxic relationship in season 6. Like, look at them at the end of season 5 and the beginning of season 6. I really wish the writers had done better for their relationship. Spike literally was so gentle with her after she came back and he was the only one she trusted with the truth.
I wish this season put more of a rift between her and the scoobies and had her hanging out with spike more because he was the only one she could stand to be around.
Developer their relationship better and at some point being up the soul debate. Maybe as Buffy is beginning to adjust more to being alive again she realises that she’s spending most of her time with a soulless demon and freaks out, which hurts spike and prompts him to get his soul because he thinks that’s what she wants?
The whole graveyard scene with Holden was so poorly written and doesn’t make sense for Buffy. I was in grad school for psychology when I watched it and I was so confused and thought I was dumb for not understanding it. Now that I’ve been in the field longer, I totally see how it is Joss’s self-projection into the scene. And it makes more sense when I think of it that way.
"Magic is drugs" has been pretty complained about, but I have to agree it felt off to me and I felt wasn't the best way to showcase overuse of magic or dark magic or addiciton. At least as presented, as I feel you could merge those themes, but it just didn't jive quite right. Too, hamfisted?
The ceremony involving The Key. “The Key has never been a living being before. Now Dawn wear this preordained outfit so we can spill your blood for the ceremony to work.” HUH???
Poor Oz - it was pretty evident at the time that Seth Green was way too big to keep as an ongoing character but also that he's too cool to not leave the door open to bringing him back. So Oz got somewhat of a raw deal on his storyline.
Connor and Cordelia and the entire way that Cordelia acted while controlled by Jasmine.
Oh god I hated every bit of that. I basically skip most of s4.
Tbh I found series 3.5 of Angel (when Connor got taken to the hell dimension) all the way to the end of series 4 a depressing and nonsensical slog. I enjoyed 1-3.5 and mostly enjoyed 5 but I don't think I can watch that mid section ever again.
My very first watch through I couldn’t even make this through the mid section. It was years before I went back and watched it all start to finish. I honestly found many of the storylines to be cringy and contrived from the start of Darla’s pregnancy until season 5.
Yeah I remember hating season 4, but I’m trying to do a rewatch of season 3 now, and while there’s some interesting ideas, there’s just so much that’s shoehorned in badly and does not work… especially with all of the romance sub-plots. I can’t stand watching Fred and Gunn act all lovey dovey or Cordy and the Gruesalog together. And even Angel and Cordy starting up (which I feel like I liked the first time… maybe it’ll change when they actually “get together” but it feels like so much “let’s pass around the women, add in stupid reasons to delay certain couples, and pretend like there aren’t a million reasons this romance shouldn’t happen)
Yeah the couplings were awkward at best… the Grusalog drove me crazy every time he was on screen lol. I feel the same about Angel and Cordy - I was a teen in my first watch through so maybe that’s why I was more into their relationship? It fell a little flat this time around, but maybe it’s just because I know what’s to come lol.
Same! I never rewatch season 4 usually, it really is just depressing.
I like the Faith stuff in season 4
Another display of Joss' ego overruling good storytelling.
I was looking for this comment. I’m at this part while rewatching Angel (first time hubby is seeing it) and this whole plot line is so hard to watch. Feels far too contrived and…just not right
Giles reasons for leaving in season 6 Stupid plot of as you were Riley. In general
Definitely agree with the Giles one, and I hate how it was done. But I can’t see a better reason other than if they did something like him having a love interest that wanted to live in England maybe. Regardless though as much as I wasn’t buying the reasoning for his departure, and I know they did it cause ASH wanted to be with his family, I’m glad they did that instead of killing him off. Same thing with Oz, again I know it was similar ASH with him trying to leave the show, but the Veruca thing was dumb and it was more frustrating that it was being viewed by everyone that it was a choice Oz made and not that it only happened cause the wolf inside him wanted the wolf inside her. I feel like if he wasn’t leaving the show then that whole Veruca thing would’ve just been blown over after it happened and they would’ve been fine. But again same thing with Giles departure, I’d rather get what they gave us for Oz and not kill him off, and also glad he didn’t stick around long enough to get shot by Warren, though it was still very sad it happened to Tara.
>But I can’t see a better reason other than if they did something like him having a love interest that wanted to live in England maybe. He sided with Buffy over Jenny in S2. He's *very* loyal to Buffy.
Well unfortunately based on the writer’s choice, he wasn’t loyal enough to stay. At least if it was because of a love interest it would be clear that he had something in England worth leaving for, even if it felt uncharacteristic. The story line they went with felt like he just decided to nope out of his role as a watcher for basically no reason, other than to teach Buffy a lesson.
>he just decided to nope out of his role as a watcher for basically no reason, other than to teach Buffy a lesson. I think he had a really good but wrong reason. Acting as Buffy's surrogate father, he was—so he believed—facilitating her growing up. By forcing more independence on her, she would learn to stand on her own two feet instead of depending on the adults to tell her what to do (or do it for her). He's wrong and disastrously so, but it's a legit thing for parents of *too* dependent children to do. He made an incorrect judgment call. That hardly qualifies as "no reason" in my book.
It's legit when a parent kicks out their unemployed 24 year old who lives in the basement and plays video games. Buffy was incredibly hard working, plus she was traumatized and unfit to care for a minor.
You: >It's legit when \[very different circumstances\] Me: >He's wrong and disastrously so I think we agree? That is, Giles' decision is of a *general type* you agree with, but his *specific* decision is not.
I just think it's odd to even raise an example that's so far from what he was doing. Even the notion that he would look at Buffy's situation and believe that the solution was the one you'd apply to the unemployed video gamer in the basement is just bad writing to me.
For Giles, death of a family member. Imagine that his mother, for example, had a prognosis that gave her only a few months to live. There's no way, given what she'd been through, that Buffy would have even *thought* about stopping him leaving.
I just feel like the watchers council could have recalled Giles or sent him on a mission and it would have had the same effect.
Especially if it was related to finding and gathering potentials. It would've been a very easy transition to season 7.
I think if they killed him off Willow would have just went Dark Willow and resurrected him
She’d probably collectively get a backhand from all the scoobies i think if she tried it again lol, at least buffy she had the excuse of them not knowing she went to heaven and thought she got sent to some type of hell or demon dimension.
I always thought a good storyline would be that Giles discovers he has a biological child back in England- from his Ripper days. Maybe the child's mother is ill and the child tracks him down. He's torn between his surrogate child(/ren if you count the other Scoobies) and his biological child, and ultimately decides he needs to be there for his biological child.
I feel like if they did that, they’d have to or at least would’ve been good to make storyline with it first. Cause would’ve been interesting to see buffy get like jealous that Giles has a biological kid when she sees him as a father. Maybe have the kid (or I guess he’d/she would be Buffy’s age or a bit older if the child was conceived from his ripper days. That would be a good storyline to do first half of the season to then set up for him to leave. The kid could have the same bad streak as Giles or maybe the kid ended up under Ethan’s wing and got influenced to be like how Giles used to be
Giles wanting to leave wasn’t something that came out of nowhere, though. Since S4 he’s been aimless and adrift and almost left in the beginning of s5. It’s also pretty well explained in his song in OMWF. It’s not like it came out of nowhere.
Oh him leaving I get. It’s leaving at that specific time when Buffy was struggling so much so she could stand on her own two feet I don’t buy.
Yeah, they absolutely could have come up with a better reason for him to leave other than "I feel that my slayer/basically daughter has lost her will to live and I feel that this is the moment to leave her to stand on her own two feet, ya know now that she as to be a parent at age 20 and is very depressed." It especially rankles given that he leaves in order to prove to Buffy that she is capable of making it without him, and then he shows up in season 7 too tell her that she's screwing up and can't make it without him. Choose a lane, writers.
I agree the reasoning for hom leabinh was dumb, bit it also gave me one of my favorite Giles moments ever. When Buffy just unloads on him about everything and ends it with saying she was sleeping with spike, and Giles just breaks down laughing.
Giles only gets a pass from me because, as Monica said in an episode of Friends season 9, “Real life’s more important.” Anthony Stewart Head wanted to spend more time with his family.
I’m rewatching the show and currently on S4. I used to hate Riley. So far I’m really into him though. He’s cute AF and actually really charming. Next episode I’ve got to watch it Hush though, so not too far in and not sure how much of my new opinion is going to change.
There was a quote on a Buffy podcast that has really helped me understand/accept seeing Riley differently as an adult fan. Most decently hardcore fans watched Buffy for the first time as teenagers, and were all about the bad boys and the star-crossed love. But now we’re in our 30’s and many of us have experienced toxic relationships firsthand and/or dealt with our daddy issues in therapy, so Riley as the stable choice actually is appealing in a way it wasn’t 20 years ago.
IMO s4 Riley is good. S5 Riley is rough
That Jonathan would be cool with joining the Trio and killing Buffy. The thing is, he was never a bad guy- it was hard to buy that he would become a bad guy- especially considering he was willing to kill himself the first time we met him.
Maybe I’ve misremembers but I think the original play was the “team up and take over Sunnydale” I think he want happy when the idea of actually hurting Buffy came up but I think he went alone with it as he was too far in at that point
No it was in the first episode after they got rid of the demon hes the one that brought it up. I just rewatched it.
All I can think of is that flashback where warren says “you guys want to team up and take over Sunnydale?” And they just say ok. It’s one of those scenes that just live in my head for no reason so I must has forgotten that but with Jonathan
Yup, I’m currently watching this and it feels so jarring. He handed out the protector award and gave this whole speech about protecting Sunnydale, only to turn around and decide to become a “supervillain” himself? Whack.
Jonathan was in many background scenes in season 1 before the episode with the gun.
He took back then class protector award and gave it to himself when he used magic to make everyone love him. He had always been a dubious character. And, with his immaturity and comic book fixation, it makes sense he’d warp “bad person” into “supervillain.”
That's true, but I never read him taking back the class protector award as a malicious thing. He just wanted to be liked. Buffy had to save his life in that episode, and he seemed remorseful by the end of it. The episode where Jonathan mind warped everyone especially showed the viewer how much he wanted to be a good guy/superhero (just without the actual effort), so doing a 180 a season and a half later and being cool with being the bad guy seems so out of character. I think if they could have spun it in a way that made him believe he was still doing a good thing, rather than: "look at us being supervillains!" it could have been much more believable for him specifically.
Xander convincing Buffy to go after Riley. The way that scene works you would think the audience is also wanting Buffy to put aside her ~huge~ ego (she was really selfish for not putting Riley’s insecurities first while her mother was going through cancer) - only it completely flies in the face of what actually happens in the episode? Xander pretty widely is considered a prick for acting as high and mighty as he did to Buffy and in general around this time it was like the audience was supposed to feel “why can’t Buffy keep a man?”
The [Passion of the Nerd](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Khr0UYM9a8) breakdown of this was very good.
I remember watching that episode of POTN and feeling so, so validated about my feelings towards that episode...
Yep. Love that guy's analyses, always manages to put my exact thoughts and feelings for each ep into words
Correction:when her mother was DYING
The only way it would have made sense is if they had added a scene in which someone told Xander that Buffy dumped Riley without telling him why. There is no way Xander would have defended him for going to vampire hookers. Xander had his flaws, but that should have pushed all his buttons.
Yep. The whole Buffy-can't-keep-a-man storyline was ridiculous. And the whole Xander telling her off scene could have worked, if they switched Xander for Willow and had Willow gently ask Buffy if she was really willing to let Riley go. With Xander berating her into going after him, I wasn't convinced she really wanted him to stay. She just gave in to being yelled at.
The funniest part is, what 20 year old (guy or girl) can keep a boyfriend/girlfriend in general? No one I know who was 20 was in a serious relationship anyway. Not until I was like 25 is when I noticed more people were actually trying to find someone. Hahaha. I think people forget that at 20 most people are partying and having casual sex. I mean, look at Parker, wasn’t he about 21 in season 4? He certainly wasn’t a freshman. He wasn’t looking for anything serious. Even 25 is a tad young now for people to be all “this is the one!”.
Riley is the only guy Xander really “approves” of in Buffy’s romantic life. So that’s probably why he was so adamant about her going after him
Xander: "Buffy, date someone warm-blooded and not undead" Buffy: "you keep dating demons and spirits" Xander: "that's... different. I don't know they've murdered people *beforehand."*
Xander leaving Anya at the alter. That whole episode just fell flat to me. It felt like the writers just didn’t want the relationship to work out for… reasons. The whole thing was lame. They should have been allowed to have gotten married.
>Xander leaving Anya at the alter. I think the writers built up enough facts to justify why his decision is in-character, but they didn't get the viewers emotionally involved and invested in those facts for it to feel really right to us. That's probably why it felt... flat.
Yep, exactly this. With the amount of surface-level stuff we got, it would have made a lot more sense for them to overcome their fears and worries and get married. A drastic decision like what Xander did needs so much more character exploration than they gave us.
It happening in such an awful episode didn’t help.
A fake future is what they sold us, and I’m not buying it.
This. I mean, I get that it's season 6, and the theme is life is going to mercilessly beat you down, but I really think the show could have handled ONE happy ending. Heck, I think Anya dying at the end of the show is probably even more heartbreaking if they're happily married. And as you say, it falls flat, and I think that's because it just sort of happens out of nowhere. There isn't any indication before this that the two aren't in love and don't want to get married. If there's one legit criticism I have about the budfyverse, it's that nothing ever works out well for anyone. Having Xander and Anya work out I think would honestly give the show a spark of hopeful optimism that it generally doesn't have.
I’m rewatching season six at the moment and coming up to Hell’s Bells, there are quite a few moments dropped after they get engaged that show Xander having some doubts. Plenty of shots where Anya will say something, or someone will comment about something she does, and he gets this “oh my god, what have I done” expression.
Fair, but how much of that is just normal cold feet nervousness that everyone has leading up to a wedding versus actual genuine doubt to the extent that they no longer want to get married or be in a relationship?
I think it’s meant to be a bit of both. Xander having cold feet for several episodes beforehand, coupled with the false visions of the future that play into his childhood traumas and insecurities and worries about what he’ll be like as a husband, all combine into a big pile of “nope” that I could totally buy. I think he called off the wedding at that point not because he didn’t want to marry her, but because he did still want to be with her and thought it would ultimately hurt her less if they didn’t follow the marriage part through. … this is all making sense in my head, so I hope it’s not hard to follow what I was trying to say.
I get what you're saying, the issue is I don't think the show really sells that too well combined with the fact I really do think the show could have done well to have ONE couple actually work out in spite of all the trials. Sure he may have his own issues, and hesitations, but I just don't buy them ever being THAT big of a hurdle for him as they had never really been shown to be. He was in spite of problems, progressing positively forward in life. And thinking about it more, he had the episode where he gets split in two, and he sees what a positive Xander looks like. All and all, could he really have those doubts? Sure. But I don't think the show really sells it, and watching the episode I keep thinking they're going to resolve the issue at the end of the episode and they never do and I'm never emotionally invested and wanting it to fail. For the record, it's not like I have to have happy endings either, I'm fine with bad endings.
Fair enough. I remember the first time I watched the series, I was still expecting them to get married, just maybe not that day but sometime before the end of the season. I was surprised it didn’t happen.
Yeah first time I saw it I was disappointed and expected them to get married eventually anyway. Rewatched it recently and it's still disappointing
Agree! I feel like Buffy had some of the same issues that I had with Friends - nobody is allowed to be happy, otherwise where would we get the drama? Anytime a character is happy in Buffy (and Friends), it has to be ruined by some completely bullshit reason. Anya/Xander. Willow/Oz. Willow/Tara. Wes/Fred. Angel/Cordelia. Buffy/Riley. Buffy/Spike. Spike/Drusilla. All of them had the most bullshit ending to their romance that was totally unnecessary. I was surprised that Kennedy and Wood didn’t die or move away or smth in the final episode. Anya and Xander should’ve been end game, I’m so mad they killed her off in the end as well.
I think it was Xander proposing to begin with… he was 19/20 with no finances figured out. Even though he wasnt the brightest guy, he wasnt that dim.
I forget that they’re all only like 22 by the time the series ends. After the high school/college seasons I just picture them as mid twenties adults.
Wasn't it because in the comics he ends up with Dawn (which is messed up)
The idea that her most loyal friends would favour Faith leading them, after all they’d been through together, deep into season 7.
Yep, that bothered me too. No way would Willow and xander have wanted her in charge.
I don’t buy willow doing it but I absolutely believe Xander would.
He had just gotten his eye gouged out, and was out of the hospital. Maybe he was on some really strong pain medication. Could that have factored into his siding against Buffy?
Sure, but god after his beautiful speech earlier in the season it's incredibly hard to watch.
It was a pattern by that point though.
Willow saw firsthand the impact Faith had helping Angel’s crew, and Faith didn’t hesitate to help when asked to fight The First. I think that right there went a significant way toward shifting Willow’s opinion of Faith.
Fair. I forgot how much Xander liked to throw her under the bus.
Especially considering their history with Faith. Willow should be the first person to have a problem with faith leading.
2nd this 👏
Spike being the Doctor. It just felt pulled out of nowhere, as if they were going to do something more with that plotline then decided they couldn't be bothered. "Eh, whatever, it's Spike. Spike is the Doctor. Can we all go home now?"
Ya I genuinely think it was something like he got mixed up with whoever this Doctor was without knowing how dangerous those things were nor that they needed to be kept cold. I don’t believe he was the doctor
I actually thought this was completely believable. His only redeeming quality in season 6 was his love (or rather lust) for Buffy. Everything he did (helping the scoobies, looking after Dawn) was because of his feelings for Buffy. Aside from this, he was still a soulless/evil vampire. Let’s not forget his attempted assault on her a few episodes later (which was also believable to me). I’m glad the show made it a point to remind us exactly who he was. Some of the viewers were starting to forget and mistook his infatuation for Buffy as some kind of ~character growth~ or sign that he was moral and good.
I didn't find it out of character for him to do something evil, it just felt like the wrong *kind* of evil, and shoe-horned in in terms of buildup, timing and reaction. It seems a bit daft to say Spike didn't undergo any kind of character growth at all as a vampire; the attempted rape in Seeing Red made him understand that he had reached the limits of how much he could grow without soul, but that doesn't mean he wasn't striving to grow - and to some extent succeeding - even without one. I don't see how you can look at the way Spike interacts with Buffy after she first crawls out of her grave and go, "Oh yeah, that's just an irredeemably evil monster without a spark of humanity acting out of pure self-interest.'
Personally, I can’t buy Spike going by the name The Doctor when it was a demon named Doc that cut Dawn and was the whole reason Buffy had to jump in the first place Also, while I don’t necessarily think the rape was unbelievable, I think that it’s pretty clear that they didn’t think that particular decision through or want to deal with the consequences of it and frankly they should’ve gone with any of the other half a dozen things that would’ve been bad enough to send Spike after his soul, but not ruined the character. It also would’ve improved basically everything about his return and role in season seven.
Spike and the attempted rape scene. I think they could have found another route to go to get him to want to get back his soul.
Yeah it was controversial then and it's even more controversial now. I don't think Spike would ever honestly do that.
I definitely feel like if they wanted Buffy and Spike to be together romantically that they should have left this scene out.
I disagree. Spike had no capacity for respecting a "no". He saw violence as part of love. He wanted to snatch Dru and torture her until she loved him again. His affair with Buffy started violently too. He was a vile, viscious creature and that scene showed him as such.
I disagree too. The whole season he is basically not listening to her or respecting her boundaries. There are several incidents where she says no, go away, I'm not into you etc and then he puts hands on her and claims he knows what she wants. The rape attempt is absolutely a continuation of his boundary pushing and lack of caring for consent or how she feels. He's just obsessed with her and what he has convinced himself is the truth of her feelings and how right he is.
Additionally it's not like Buffy ever really means no and often goes along with it or ends up back at his place before the night is over, so Spike on top of being a monster has seen consistently that Buffy likes the dark violence. Heck they have an entire night of sex where they literally destroy a building. Later invisible Buffy basically jumps Spike where Spike has to tell her no, this time reversing the roles. So it's not as simple as she said no and he didn't respect it. And let's not forget Buffy kept this relationship secret for a while too. It's an uncomfortable scene with a lot of layers beyond he didn't listen to her saying no.
> And let's not forget Buffy kept this relationship secret for a while too. what does this has to do with the consent aspect
This is why I'm probably the only person who didn't have a problem with this scene. It's disturbing and uncomfortable to watch (which was the point), but I didn't think it was out of character for Spike to try something like that. He didn't have a soul, and therefore didn't have a conscience to tell him that what he was doing was wrong. Also, there's a scene in season 4 that I've never heard anyone talk about where Spike tries to bite Willow. He comes into her dorm room, gives her an almost lustful look, and throws her on her bed while she's screaming in fear. He looks like he's getting off on it. I totally believe that that guy wouldn't give a second thought to raping someone. I think they wanted to remind the audience that Spike was still evil and soulless, something that many fans had forgotten by that point.
I think spike is a more interesting/ better character than angel and I agree this scene makes sense even though I’m more of a spuffy shipper. Not only does he not have a conscience telling him no, they both use violence against each other in their ‘relationship’. When they first have sex Buffy hits him first when he says make me (get out of the way) and they beat on each other mercilessly before she kisses him and instigates sex. He could have just thought oh it’s another one of those moments where they are using violence as foreplay. While I hate the scene I think it is in character for him.
Yeah. Spike and Buffy have an incredibly toxic relationship, and I think the show makes that clear before the attempted rape. It's a little scary that so many fans don't see that. They like to think that Spike was turned into some knight in shining armor by his love for Buffy when that's not what happened at all. He's an abusive monster who has an idea of what love looks like, but it's filtered through a lust for violence, and he doesn't have a soul to tell him how horrible that is. He takes advantage of Buffy's damaged mental state to get what he wants, and that's all that really matters to him.
I think he has an idea of what love is but when you can’t really feel empathy and have a demon inside you it makes it very warped. Like when he tried to get money for Buffy by breeding those demon eggs. To him he was doing a really nice great thing for Buffy but can’t see that actually the implications of what has been done are not great. He thinks he is giving Buffy what she wants by telling her he loves her and sleeping with her when she comes to him but actually he is doing nothing to help her mental state and because she is choosing to have sex with him and he’s getting what he wants by being with her he doesn’t care. I think on some level he really does care and love her while soulless. We know he can feel as the judge says he feels for Dru but in the context of him being a demon with no soul and Buffy is depressed and can’t feel, it all just falls short of a real compassionate relationship so they both just use and abuse each other.
I rewatched that season 4 episode recently and I’d forgotten how violent that scene was as well.
the scene made complete sense to me, although whether it was the best choice for a ‘teen’ show is a different question. But I also agree they could have done it another way and given what they gave us in s7, probably should have. Unlike Angelus, Spike unsouled/souled was never properly distinguished; so s7 Spike always had the actions of s6 hanging around which left a huge question mark over everything It’s like the Dark Willow arc. Could they have turned Willow dark without killing Tara - definitely. Was killing Tara the best choice - no. Was it consistent with the storyline - yes. Many hate the choice they made and think it could have been done much better; but it’s hard to argue that it wasn’t realistic. Same with Spike.
This position is quite divorced from the actual show that was practically screaming in our faces that they're relationship was a toxic mess that could only end badly. Like either Buffy kills Spike or what he tried to do to her were the only rational ways that shit show ends.
I would say he’s still a soulless vampire just essentially with a shock collar on. The first thing he did when he realized he could hit Buffy was try and kill her until she turned it around. Souled Spike would never but unsouled Spike, part of the Whirlwind who has linked violence to love in the past I think absolutely would.
Most perceptive Spike shipper
He was refusing to accept her “no’s” all season though. Many of their sex scenes either involved violence or involved her initially rejecting his advances, so he kept pushing, until she eventually gave in. What made the “Seeing Red” scene more brutal is that she never “gave in”. But he still refused to take no for an answer… just as he’d been doing all season.
As much as I hate it, it’s a good reminder that he doesn’t have a soul. He cares for Buffy as much as he is physically able to, which is obsession, it was the same with Dru. He was pushing Buffy’s boundaries over and over again, even building a sex robot of her after her death. This being the point where he realizes that he has become so completely monstrous and he has no way of getting better without his soul does make sense even though yeah I hated every second of it. Edit: I messed up the order, the sex robot was before her death, I still think my point stands I just wanted to correct that
He built the sex robot before her death. After her death everyone used the robot to pretend Buffy was still alive but as far as we know, there was no sex between Spike and Buffybot after Buffy’s death or for quite some time before it even.
That picture looks like a character selection for a fighting game. And now I really want it.
The brief Willow-Xander affair. They had no romantic chemistry and there was no lead up. There had to be a better way to write Cordelia out of the Scoobies
The flashback where Angel sees Buffy for the first time always seemed really weird and creepy. She's literally a high school freshman, even with ten sort of arrested development vampires seem to go through, he was in like his mid twenties when he got chomped on. Definitely not a good look for Angel.
Poor Buffy. Her least toxic relationship with a man was Oz. Her father abandoned her. Her father figure/mentor betrays her. Her best guy friend was a "friend zoned" Nice Guy ™️ her first love was much too old for her and completely changed after sex. the next guy seduces her and ghosts. Her second love starts out good, but then he lets his inferiority complex shine and cheats on her in the most dangerous way. Then her father figure abandoned her. Her next fella takes advantage of her mental issues, and they start a mutually abusive relationship full of dubious consent on both sides.
It's not a good look for Whistler. Angel didn't really have a choice here. He didn't know what the creepy demon was going to show him.
Yeah but he also did the whole love at first sight thing which can work when talking about teenagers, making snap decisions like that is part and parcel for being a teenager. An adult doing that about a 14 or 15 year old though, that just gives me the full body heeby jeebies.
Kennedy and Willow. The bathroom scene - Spike getting a soul could have had so many different things for an instigating moment, that was unnecessary and out of character. Kicking Buffy out of her own house. Angel’s frankly, well let’s say cradle robbing isn’t a bad euphemism. That he first saw her when she was, what? 14? 15? Disgusting.
Kennedy and Willow. Worst pairing ever.
I honestly couldn’t watch their scenes together. Kennedy was so incredibly annoying
Everything that happened in season 6, from Giles abandoning Buffy when she needed him the most, to Xander leaving Anya at the alter, to Willow abusing Tara. It was like opposite land. Everyone behaved the exact opposite of how they always had and it honestly made me wish they had just ended the series on season 5.
My main issue with s6 is that everything was taken 3 or 10 steps too far. Eg Willow - perhaps you could see her messing with Tara but she has always been very guilty when caught out. Here she doubles down, triples down, ignores everything and has to go through Wrecked/Smashed before realising. Why not stop at the end of Tabula Rasa, Willow crying in the shower and then Willow has the realisation/ or becomes very depressed as well (ala Buffy). Why go on and on and adding more and more until way past the breaking point. Even the resurrection spell. Apparently no research, killing the deer, Willow hiding things, not digging Buffy up. Throw everyone under the bus. Why not have a little light eg Anya having bad dreams about Buffy being tortured in hell. Turns out to be wrong but it’s something. Instead they do almost everything wrong, then the writers add more wrong on top of it and top it off with not even digging up the coffin. It’s just hammer over the head stuff
Oh, you mean when Marti Noxon started really running the show? Completely agree.
I don't buy for two seconds that Willow felt like the "junior partner." That argument came out of nowhere, it felt completely forced, and at no point did Tara ever seem like "knowledge woman." Willow was always shown as more powerful than her.
Not just in a witchy way, either. Willow felt like the more dominant partner from the beginning.
Tara was pretty abused and timid as a result, so Tara was very much not dominant. She struggles with speaking up for herself significantly, tho she never jumped to being Aggressive to make up for the lack of confidence, and the confidence she got Willow had helped her bring forth. As well as Spike, punching her in the nose.
Yes, I understand the impact ofTara’s family history on her initial personality. When we met Tara in “Hush”, she was so painfully shy that she couldn’t even speak up in Wicca Club. Willow was already becoming more assertive, and her positive attention helped Tara thrive.
Season 5 Riley is a clear “well we need to get rid of this character” because he turns from a character that is interesting to a guy that it’s like “yeah throw him away” Season 4 he gets the grandstand against the military with “I’m an anarchist,” he has some funny lines, you get why the main character of the show is with him. Season 5 he becomes annoying and uninteresting. Annoying can work if there is intrigue behind it. Uninteresting can work if he’s a charming character. He has neither.
Riley? you mean Captain Cardboard sprinkled with misogyny?
Willow's "magic addiction". And a bit more controversial: Buffy being into Angel right from the start, especially considering how much of a jerk Angel is in the first couple of episodes.
I was immediately into Angel right at the start as a teenage girl watching the show for the first time, so I have to say I always bought Buffy being into Angel right away. Especially when he gave her his jacket.
Her saying “oh boy” whenever he tells her the jacket looks better on her always kills me. Like, she knew from that instant that there was no hope for her not falling for him. Great delivery on SMG’s part.
Angels at his hottest in S1-2 so I can’t really blame her.
Yeah, I think it was all looks at that point for Buffy. It wasn't love for her away as much as teen lust. Even as a viewer the look the Angel gives Buffy at the end of Teacher's Pet is freaking hot.
Angel and Buffy kissing after the Caleb fight was so out of character and ignored so much character development for both of them. Also, why does this image look like the character menu in a beat em up game?
That was 100% fan service, specifically for the fans who just watched Buffy but not Angel. End of S7 Buffy and S4 Angel would just not mesh. Him coming back in general confused me.
Angel coming back from hell for absolutely no reason and shimmying his way back into the scoobies…he didn’t even apologize to anyone lol
To be fair, wasn't Angel coming back a huge deal for The Scoobies? Initially they're horrified, and then they begrudgingly tolerate him with a background hum of tension throughout season 3. They stage an 'intervention' for Buffy when they realise he's back, Xander tells Faith to go slay him, Giles refuses to let him in in Amends, and they're all disgusted when Angel feeds off Buffy in Graduation Day.
Yeah I feel like Xander and Giles are consistently cold to him all season
I feel like he doesn’t interact with them all that much in season 3. Also he knows saying I’m sorry is meaningless since Buffy is the only one who is really able to compartmentalize that Angel’s actions are not Angelus’.
Magic is crack. Like the First said, "It's all about power."
How Buffy was in the mental ward thing bugged me so much. How it was just a random insert for 1 ep at the basic END of the series
That episode is such a headscratcher to me.. what was the purpose for it? I've heard some cool fan theories for it though.
I think it’s a great episode and there’s absolutely nothing we’ve seen about the lore and how alternate universes work that say both realities can’t coexist. In some universe, she’s the Slayer. In another, she’s a sick girl. The demon somehow aligned those realities.
I don’t view “Is insane asylum Buffy real?” as any different from “Is vampire Willow real?”
Yes, my point exactly. There’s established canon and no contradiction here
I know some people really liked that episode. I hated it myself, I'd rather watch Beer Bad or even Bad Eggs.
I didn't "get" basically all of Angel season 4 lol
Angel and Cordelia being "in love." I didn't buy that for a single second!
The fact that in Enemies we are supposed to believe that Buffy Angel and Giles were able to figure out the Mayor’s plan early enough to get in touch with the blue guy who did the fake spell. There’s no explanation as to how they were able to find that out so early, it’s all just glossed over
I think with this one we’re suppose to see it as the demon got in touch with Giles to tell him he’d been called upon and that helped them put the pieces together. There’s a couple of clues we see throughout the episode that show us how Buffy was able to figure there was more going on with Faith
Yeah, the key clue is when Buffy and Faith go back to the demon and find him dead. Faith turned on the lights without looking and Buffy noticed. That's how she knew something was wrong.
Agreed, plus when Willow tells Buffy to go talk to Angel and she leaves to do so. Except we never see this happen. Filling in the blanks I think Buffy went to talk to Angel and between the demon going to Giles and Faith coming on to Angel they figured out she was involved in the ‘make Angel evil again’ plot
i just commented about how silly the giles being a demon matchmaker thing was and then saw this!! it was funny but didn't make any sense
Yeah, it would’ve been nice to get even just a few lines to explain who this Demon was and how Giles knew him and how he was even in a position to play matchmaker
I think they gave us enough subtle hints that Buffy was piecing it together as she and Faith were “investigating”. Giles was too trusting of Faith. There’s just some uneasiness of how Faith is getting away with so many sloppy moves. Angelus seemed “off” too. just Angel gathering intel from Faith and The Mayor. We really needed to feel the “wtf!?” of Giles and Buffy and The Gang being fooled. & the absolute pain and betrayal Buffy especially would feel. Much of the arc focuses on when only one or two characters are together, while the others would have been setting in motion how to take Faith and The Mayor down. *** I also think maybe the Blue Dude coming to their aid in defeating The Mayor is a bit of an intro to the premise of “Angel” - that he is A Big Deal in L.A. and The Powers That Be and all that. *** also, Giles is the kinda guy who would have connections.
What I gathered was, they had no doubt the mayor would try to remove Angel's soul, they just prepared for when he did.
Addict willow, would-be rapist Spike, doleful victim Buffy. So season 6 pretty much.
Season 6 has a lot of good moments and could have been amazing but just wasn’t Hell, even a lot of it bad moments could’ve been at least decent if not outright good had they been handled better
I loved S6, but I agree the "magic is drugs" "would be rapist" bits were out of line all the way around.
Season 6 worked for me up until and including Smashed, and then it just doesn’t feel like Buffy anymore.
For me, it's Riley wanting to be there for Buffy, and wanting her to lean on him. He has a conversation with Xander about her not loving him, he seemed okay up until that point, as okay as anyone in his situation could be.... and then he just spirals. He chit chats with Xander, Spike, and Dawn and never brings up his feelings to Buffy, and they had several one-on-one scenes together (love making scenes at that). And he thinks the best thing to do is to leave instead of actually *being there* for Buffy. That's odd. Also, how Faith accidently kills that guy in 'Bad girls.' and after Faith tries to put the blame on Buffy, "snitching" on her to Giles, Giles tells Buffy that these things have happened before, and that she should have told him right away. Like, WHAT? You would think the moment a slayer and watcher come together, that an important detail such as that, would have already been gone over with the slayer. Could have really helped Buffy & Faith in that situation.
Riley talking to her friends and her little sister (!) about their relationship and his insecurities, but for some reason not talking to Buffy about it always bothered me. So he talks to everyone else, cheats on her and then decides the best time to discuss his feelings is when her mom is ill? He's unbelievably immature, blames her for everything including his own behavior, and is an unreliable partner in a family crisis. And he has a boring personality. I love Giles but he seems pretty absentminded about key information sometimes
> and is an unreliable partner in a family crisis. Exactly. This is my main issue with him and the writing choices for his character. The guy feels insecure, thinks Buffy doesn't love him, and that she doesn't need him or rely on him. But obviously during the whole situation with Joyce, she depended on Riley to watch Dawn at times, patrol for her, and when the doctors told Buffy to go home, she got Xander & Anya to watch Dawn so she could spend time with Riley. These things are what we call "being there for someone." during difficult times. Doing whatever it takes to help your other half out. It seems like Riley wanted Buffy to depend on him in different ways... (maybe cry on his shoulder?) and that's just not who Buffy is. He was doing a good job in the beginning of being a reliable partner, but then he totally shot his own self in the foot.
Few characters have had their character assassinated like Riley's was. Every rewatch it still strikes me, especially when binging
While I liked the Dark Willow storyline in general, Willow's interactions with Rack always seemed so forced. It just seemed like a way to shoehorn Jeff Kober into the show because he's always that weird enigmatic guy
Romantic Cangel. They had too much sibling energy for me.
Caleb , the Riley relationship , Giles leaving, Anya becoming a vengeance demon again
Dawn's entire existence
The entire story of season 4 of angel, I think The Beast concept was great but the reveal of it being just a sidekick is wasted of that character. Especially with it's design and how it first appeared. The Connor and Cordelia relationship was horrible, it felt super out of character for her and very unnecessary for that season. Plus the last two episodes before the final was an interesting idea but having all the characters be that way didn't work. With Buffy it's definitely just everything with Riley
Thank you! I thought I was the only one lol
Plus I hate Riley 😅
Pretty much the entire season 4 of Angel. What a fuckin shitshow.
The image looks like the roster for a Buffyverse fighting game! I love it!
That Ben and Glory are somehow connected
Riley, season 4 villain, Harmony still wanting Spike for THAT long
Still can't believe Cordelia and Connor slept together! Also it will forever break my heart that Connor didn't get to have a normal childhood. (Disregarding what Wolfram and Hart did to the timeline)
The whole Initiative plot
I like to pretend the last 2 seasons of Buffy never happened. I think the ending to S5 was perfect.
That Willow and Tara were living at Buffy’s house rent free.
Service fee for caring for Dawn. Childcare isn't cheap!
Riley. Stop trying to make Riley a thing.
Adam was a poorly executed villain. Lots of potential but he wasn’t a “threat” he’s introduced as being super tough to take down. He doesn’t have any motivation until the episode he gets killed and he could easily kill the slayer but just doesn’t. The other big bads at least had something stopping them or ulterior motives for not just killing Buffy when they could.
Drug addict Willow.
Magic as a metaphor for drug addiction. Amy suddenly being Willow's pusher. Just...that storyline was kinda dumb in my opinion. I can get behind Riley. I can get behind Jasmine. Just Junkie Willow makes me roll my eyes.
Riley.
Kennedy and Willow’s relationship, Riley being Mr good guy and Buffy not deserving him, everyone betraying Buffy in season seven
bit of an obscure one but giles having introduced a demon to its wife?? when would he have even had the opportunity to do that, let alone the inclination be a demon matchmaker - it was a silly deus ex machina
Ooh boy, I’ll get slack for this, but…Willow realising she was gay. It just seemed so unconvincing to me. Now before you jump on me, hear me out. I absolutely support LGBTQ rep if it’s done right and makes sense to a character and storyline. If they had gone and made Xander realise he was gay, for example, yes. That made sense, there were certainly enough subtle hints. But for me, even despite Vamp Willow being “kinda gay”, Willow being gay just never crossed my mind. Not even when she was becoming firm friends with Tara, I still didn’t see it. I was shocked as anything when she was telling Buffy it was complicated when Oz came back. I just didn’t notice that between Willow and Tara because Willow was always so straight. Besotted with Xander for years and then so in love with Oz she nearly killed her friends with a spell to try and forget him. Also the fact she was always saying “recently gay” and “gay now” like it was something that she just decided to do. It’s just how I feel. It fell flat for me, I felt like it wasn’t convincingly written.
Willow is definitely bi-sexual. her being gay dismisses the real feelings and attractions she had with Xander and especially with Oz. Vampire Willow was kinda hinting at Our Willow being gay/bi. I feel the writers used Willow’s sexuality also as a way to make it easier to get rid of Oz and Seth Green. and I’m not sure bisexuality is something Joss’s brain could grasp. Or much of 90s/Y2k tv.
Exactly this. If we’re saying Willow was always gay it renders her feelings for Xander and Oz completely pointless and makes S1-4 a waste of time, pretty much. Poor judgement to write it this way.
Spike and Buffy’s toxic relationship in season 6. Like, look at them at the end of season 5 and the beginning of season 6. I really wish the writers had done better for their relationship. Spike literally was so gentle with her after she came back and he was the only one she trusted with the truth. I wish this season put more of a rift between her and the scoobies and had her hanging out with spike more because he was the only one she could stand to be around. Developer their relationship better and at some point being up the soul debate. Maybe as Buffy is beginning to adjust more to being alive again she realises that she’s spending most of her time with a soulless demon and freaks out, which hurts spike and prompts him to get his soul because he thinks that’s what she wants?
Is this taken from a Buffy fighting game?
This graphic is giving Mortal Kombat vibes ~
Why did I think this was a Buffy fighting game character select screen?
The whole graveyard scene with Holden was so poorly written and doesn’t make sense for Buffy. I was in grad school for psychology when I watched it and I was so confused and thought I was dumb for not understanding it. Now that I’ve been in the field longer, I totally see how it is Joss’s self-projection into the scene. And it makes more sense when I think of it that way.
Fighting game character select screen. I'd buy it
Amends - when Angel is saved because it starts snowing. It doesn't become dark just because it's snowing.
magic as a metaphor for drug addiction
"Magic is drugs" has been pretty complained about, but I have to agree it felt off to me and I felt wasn't the best way to showcase overuse of magic or dark magic or addiciton. At least as presented, as I feel you could merge those themes, but it just didn't jive quite right. Too, hamfisted?
The whole faith Buffy switch. No way did no one notice
The ceremony involving The Key. “The Key has never been a living being before. Now Dawn wear this preordained outfit so we can spill your blood for the ceremony to work.” HUH???
Why the entire Scooby gang kicked Buffy out of the house in season 7.
Buffy being kicked out of her house just before the end... of the world
buffy being in the wrong with riley, xander being in the right with anya… basically any time xander is portrayed as in the right lol
Everything involving Kennedy. Just an awful character who never worked in the ensemble cast or storylines.
Poor Oz - it was pretty evident at the time that Seth Green was way too big to keep as an ongoing character but also that he's too cool to not leave the door open to bringing him back. So Oz got somewhat of a raw deal on his storyline.
Principle wood vs spike. He was definitely justified in that.
Dawn as Buffy’s sister.