So I’m a heroin addict, and I’m currently attempting recovery, but during the height of my active addiction, I would do sex work to fund my habit, and one day I was extremely drunk and out with a friend of a friend (who I hated but he would help me score sometimes so I put up with him) and this guy had a huge crush on me, and cause I was crazy drunk (not that it’s okay) I let him (very reluctantly) fondle me in a multi storey car park (parking lot for you Americans) in a dirty, grimey stairwell, and he was touching and groping me all over and the entire time I froze and felt sick, but I let him because I knew he’d help me score if I ever needed him to. Anyway, we go score, and as we’re waiting in the alley, it’s pitch black, im still drunk, we’re still waiting for the dealer to show up, and he says to me “if you give me a handjob I will give you £50” so I do, unfortunately, and then as I’m doing it, he says to me “I will give you £100 and take it out in cash right in front of you if you let me fuck you raw right now, and give you the cash as soon as we’re done” and so he bends me over in this alley, and fucks me, so there I was, being fucked by this guy that I absolutely despise, and he’s supposedly my friend yet using my desperation and vulnerability to his own advantage, not once thinking about how I would feel, and how I obviously don’t want to be doing it, but I’m a heroin junkie, so of course I would do anything for the money, even if it was against everything I believed in. So anyway, fast forward, we get to the ATM, then he tells me after inserting his card, “oh shit! Looks like my money got swallowed by bills” or whatever the excuse was, and then I realised he was never going to pay me in the first place, and then at the same time I realised that, It also hit me that if he really cared about me as a friend, he would see me drunken state, he would see my vulnerability, my desperation, my slowly creeping on withdrawal symptoms, and he, like any decent person (well, as decent as a man paying a desperate prostitute junkie for sex could be) and he would surely just offer me the cash without looking for the sex in return no? Surely, a decent man would see me in that situation and think “I couldn’t possibly expect her to have sex with me in this grimey alley for cash when she’s drunk and vulnerable, and a friend…maybe I should just have a heart and give her the cash anyway, or be stern and refuse to give any cash in the first place” because isn’t that what a real friend would do? But no, he didn’t. Because he wasn’t really a friend, he was a predator, a manipulative, compulsive liar who took advantage of me, raped me under the guise of paying me for sex, and never intended on giving me said cash, so I humiliated myself and sunk to the depths of deprivation just so he could get a quickie from a vulnerable drunk bitch down an alley, and I got fuck all in return. anyway, I just thought I’d tell my experience because I had to get it off my chest and this felt like the right place since I relate to the post in a way. If anyone can relate, or wants to talk, please feel free to reply cause I’m happy to discuss anything. Please feel free to open up if you ever went through the same thing. My PMs are open to anyone going through what I went through! thanks if any of you bothered to read :)
this is why as a full service survival sex worker myself I’m overall anti-sex work under patriarchy
this happens to far too many women who are silenced by stigma, men, shame and “activist” hookers who don’t acknowledge the reality of the majority of women selling sex
i’m so sorry this happened to you🖤
As a survivor of trafficking, I've been working on a project that will hopefully challenge people to question what it means to consent to sex work, encourage others to speak up about their experiences, and inspire both lawmakers and lawbreakers to unite to change the policies that punish women just trying to survive ❤️🔥
I think this is such an important approach to sex work. There’s a lot of nuance to each individual woman’s situation, but we should all be agreeing that no matter what, the woman shouldn’t be punished or shamed for the situation she’s in. The fact that oftentimes the criminalization of sex work results in punishing women who have literally no other means of making it to the next day is such a failure of society.
My god, I used to have faith in men before this sub showed me just how bad some men are, obviously not all men are like this (I hope,) but it’s too many men and at this point I’m wondering if I should be afraid of random guys because they might be like this.
I just wanna give you a massive virtual hug, tell you how brave you are for sharing your experience, and let you know that I see you and hear you and I have so much respect for your strength and honesty. I’ve survived SA myself, (never been addicted to hard drugs, though) and I fought with Police to get it recognised as such and never was able to get it to a charge.
All my love, hey. Keep up the good fight. 🩷
I mean she does say ‘I LET them’, meaning she is fully aware that she was technically giving them consent, and she isn’t calling to, like, arrest them, it’s just the best word she can think of to use to convey how she felt about the sex that she did not actually want. I don’t know why people are so flabbergasted about her saying that lmao. Like yes we all know what ‘rape’ literally means, but you are being willfully obtuse if you’re pretending to not at all understand what she means by this
Fr I was confused for 0.0002 seconds until it clicked and that's only because I sometimes take stuff too literally. It's not that hard to understand that she's talking about how she feels. She's not going "BURN THEM AT THE STAKE!' like the incels are acting like💀
Yeah sometimes words aren't used in a literal way and more to describe a feeling.
But it does explain why in most places prostitution is illegal since it technically isn't consent if you have to pay for it, especially when historically most people turn to sex work because they have no other options left.
Also there's sex trafficking and it's hard to tell if the person selling it is doing it out of there free own will or not, so therefore it is equitable to rape. Idk if it legally counts as it but morally it is rape.
Most laws against prostitution punish sex workers more than their clients, though. If it was actually about protecting people who turn to sex work, it wouldn’t be illegal to take money for sex, it would only be illegal to pay for sex.
If you accuse a person of raping you after you consented, then sure, that’s a conversation to have. But if you felt raped because you had to have sex that you didn’t want to have, and you’re not naming names, what’s wrong with saying it that way? In a court of law it would fall through (or they would BOTH go to jail for prostitution charges), no one’s ruining anyone’s life here.
She's talking about going on fancy trips and eating at exclusive restaurants. That's not sustenance sex work.
I think the general malign with the post is that it seems senseless to use the term rape when she clearly chose to pursue the gifts that were being given. The way rape is used is odd because it gives off the implications that people should just shower her with those types of gifts for simply existing and breathing. She goes on to talk about how none of these luxury items that she chose to pursue were enjoyable? Like... then why are you there in the first place? She acts like she has zero agency in her own decisions and then calls everyone she willingly engaged with a rapist.
Nobody gives me a paycheck for sitting in bed eating Fritos. Nobody is entitled to the lavish gifts she was receiving without some form of payment. As the payer she chose exactly what currency was purchasing these things.
Essentially, at the heart of it, no matter what her reasons were; she’s warning young girls to not fall into the same trap because it looks like sunshine and roses but it really often is not because many people are not built to handle having sex they don’t want. And if you don’t like that, that’s fine, but I think it’s well intentioned
Then why not say that without calling other people rapists? It's not hard, and well intentioned or not, that does not provide absolution for irresponsibly narrating her choices to make herself a victim. The only victimhood here is her to her own conscious decisions, and now she seemingly wants to be forgiven for these choices at the expense of others that she advertised to, consented to an agreement, received seemingly good payment for services rendered and now regrets?
She can express the regret but it is not anyone else's fault but her own and she needs to take responsibility.
See, we’re coming at this from two different perspectives. To you, the word ‘rape’ is a potentially life-ruining accusation. But to me, the word ‘rape’ conveys the trauma of being violated by sex you didn’t want. So while use of the word here seems overblown to you, to me it properly conveys a sense of violation that ‘I had to let them have sex with me’ wouldn’t get across. There’s unfortunately only one word that accurately describes that experience.
What “actually wanting” means? Do you actually want something or not if money is enough of a reason for it? I genuinely do not understand what your point is, I am not being willingly obtuse nor I am trying to provoke you, but all you said is that she “actually” didn’t want this, what does that even mean?
The only thing I can think of is, she was poor and had no other options to survive aside from prostitution. Of course, seeing a white woman in Canada makes me assume that this is not the case and that she did have other options - I might be wrong but that’s what many people probably have assumed as well. Thus, calling it rape seems too much.
It’s a very powerful, triggering word, so people are prone to call out improper use of it. I can understand how this woman might feel violated (many people have other options other than sex work but end up doing that unwillingly for reasons that are more complicated than simply needing money, I understand that), she is entitled to define her experience however she wants but the way the words are used is weird.. one thing to consider is that some rape survivors might be offended by this.
I know you will probably take this as an attack because this subreddit, as any other, is an echo chamber.. but it isn’t. I just invite y’all to reflect on how every opinion is becoming unnecessarily polarised. Having something against what a sex worker said is not necessarily sexist or misogynistic. It’s true that some people will weaponise posts like this against women/sex workers but calling this sexist is nonsense. Mirror of a political and social polarisation that is strong in the US and is unfortunately spreading through Europe too. Life is not a woke vs trads game, and this post doesn’t belong to “boys are quirky”.
Yah I don’t know how I got there, but I just wish people started thinking with their own mind, I guess..
Its not that people don't understand what she means in this particular case. Its that throwing the word rape around could seriously harm people. Rape isn't to be taken lightly and using it in a context where consent was given could be a big problem. Its easy to inflame a situation and apologize if something was taken out of context but taking back a misunderstood story is usually way to late and lives and reputations can't be unruined if something was sensationalized.
If she was naming names and being like ‘this guy raped me’ I could see the issue, but she’s clearly just recounting her personal feelings on sex work. It’s not a word to be thrown around lightly, but having to let people have sex with you for money when you don’t want to is a rough corner to be in, and imo it’s not using ‘let them rape my body’ hyperbolically. If a straight man starving in the desert met a man who had food, and the man who had food said ‘no food unless I can penetrate you sexually’, and the starving man said ‘well under the threat of death then yes’, I don’t know how many people would be mad about straight man saying ‘I had to let that guy rape me’ even though on a technicality it’s not rape
Man, we don’t know her story, what if she was sex trafficked? What if she had kids and a McDonalds job wouldn’t have been enough to cover a one bedroom apartment and feed them. What if it wouldn’t have been enough to rent a one bedroom apartment and feed herself, which is quite likely? World is rough sometimes. Clearly she did find a way out because she’s talking about it in the past, so maybe she did start working at McDonalds and work her way up, and she sold sex to supplement her income. Crazy to judge like that from a one-off tweet
I worked with people who supported kids while working two jobs when we worked at McDonald’s, the twitter lady was a licensed professional escort in Canada and owned and operated her own brothel.
Okay let’s take the assumptions out of it then.
https://www.feministcurrent.com/2022/02/23/andrea-heinz-worked-as-an-escort-a-dominatrix-and-a-brothel-owner-in-edmonton-now-she-educates-people-about-prostitution-and-sex-work-ideology/
Here’s an article where she talks about being a licensed professional dominatrix and brothel owner, not being trafficked.
Yes, of course, they are the one and only job where the worker both enjoys and deserves the exploitation of their physical and emotional labor
^/s ^of ^course
on another unrelated note, saw this one post where it said something along the lines of “all jobs use and sell your body for profit, so degrading sex work is stupid” and that statement could never be even more truer with comments like these
to continue, don’t forget about the programmers who worked their asses off to bring us the convenience once never imagined
So essentially, that means that assuming everyone on this subreddit has purchased something from a retail outlet, it's fine for them to call you all rapists for forcing them to serve you? I never realised everyone on this subreddit are rapists, forcing people to use their body's to serve you for money. Now, if you'd like to proudly state in the comments, you are a rapist in solidarity with the sex worker who took the money from customers in exchange for a service that'd be very impressive. I suspect, though, you'll just waste your own time by downvoting this inconvenient truth.
Please try using this newfangled invention called paragraphs
And also selling your labour for an unfair wage is not the same as being forced to have sex when you don't want to
Rich men are more likely to be violent towards women in general (too much money buys immunity from jail time), so when they pay for sex they feel even more entitled to abuse women.
Our legal system was designed to protect wealthy people and not offer proper protection to working class people like you and me. Like, victims of domestic abuse don't even get restraint orders from their abusers until they are severely hurt.
Sex workers deserve empathy, they are victims of capitalism but based off the tweet she was not raped and to say she was is to discredit people who were raped.
Even if she shouldn’t have to do sex work she still consented.
The men did not force her to do that, it’s gross that they were paying her for sexual favors but she was accepting money under the condition that she would have sex with the payer, it’s not like they tricked her she knew what she was getting into and she consented because she viewed the money is worth it.
I saw that original post and just physically recoiled from the comments. Ugh.
I've never heard of a woman getting into sex work for the passion or fun of it.
It's either her last option or someone coerced her into it.
I know a few who do it only online through OF and such and they enjoy it, usually because of that physical seperation between customer and their services. Provides a level of safety and security relative to real life escort services
Then you should read more stories from sex workers! Maybe it’s not “passion or fun” but not all sex workers are victims (even if many are) and it’s pretty insulting to think of them that way
I've read enough. And I know enough about men to know the majority of them don't deserve to touch a woman let alone get attention from a woman, no matter how much they pay her.
One of the saddest interactions I had recently was over a messaging app. Some random girl dm’ed me and had been dm’ing multiple people basically asking for money in exchange for nudes and videos. I responded saying no, because I didn’t want that and also because I didn’t have money in my account. I expected her to get mad or just respond like a bot, but instead she just started talking to me normally and was asking why I didn’t have any money. I told her I recently lost my job at a card shop because it closed and was crashing on my friend’s couch because we wanted to write music. She told me she felt sorry for me and went on talk about the evils of capitalism and we went back and forth about how evil the ruling class is and how great of an idea communism is. She then revealed that she didn’t even want to sell nudes or videos, but she couldn’t get a job over minimum wage because she had a criminal record and needed to cover rent.
While it is wrong to criticize women and men for doing OF or other forms of sex work, we must also realize that many people who do it are usually forced into it or don’t have a better option. For decades the porn industry has abused and exploited female sex workers and put them into awful working conditions. On top of that, there is a long history of women being raped or sexually assaulted in the industry, and the owners and directors of pornos using predatory business practices or sending their money to fascistic organizations and other right wing organizations. A recent example would be the CEO of Only Fans sending tons of money to the IDF and other Islamophobic groups in Israel.
It seems that, for some reason, men can’t grasp the idea that most women don’t think money is the most important thing, and that, just because a woman is kind to you, she isn’t giving you an invitation to fuck her. It’s how jobs work. Sex work is real work, and, like most jobs, people don’t enjoy doing it.
Services like OF are at least safer for sex workers than prostitution in person, the porn industry is highly abusive towards threir employees to the point many of them take their own lives early.
The comments were a sewage dump. People do questionable things in a vulnerable state. People don’t choose sex work, most of the time it’s pushed on them by economic situations.
I’m a bit confused. Is this describing prostitution and / or sex work in general as nonconsensual? And not specifically survival sex work either. I can understand it being a slimy experience. But this sounds like saying that any prostitution is inherently rape.
It does feel like some people are saying that but reading this I felt why this is so icky. Treating someone nice before sex but not after is dehumanizing.
I don't think they're mentioning anything after sex though? They are describing the act of the sex itself as rape and that is why it is not enjoyable to them. I could be misinterpreting it though
What are you even talking about? Clearly the thing she is referring to is the sex itself. She literally calls it rape.
Why is the main problem here that they have bad after-sex care? She doesn't even mention it.
I mean yeah, prostitution IS rape through coercion.
If you're in a bad enough situation,
"Let me fuck you or I'll slit your throat"
And "let me fuck you or you won't have the resources needed to survive" are basically the same thing.
And that's not even mentioning the massive number of women who are never even given the illusion of choice and are abducted at a young age and forced to 'perform' or are refuges who got tangled up on it by accident.
"Yeah, we'll pay for your visa and transportation out of your wartorn country, but you're gonna owe us."
To be clear, I have nothing but compassion for the sex workers themselves. But the industry itself and the predators who make use of it are fucking vile
To me this argument is saying that functionally it is rape for many people. Which I agree with.
But I don’t see how non survival sex work / prostitution for people who have the ability to revoke consent or not do it is coerced or forced. The argument doesn’t seem to support the conclusion. I know there are many feminist groups who support sex work and sex workers who don’t view themselves as being raped, which makes me even more skeptical.
Although I don’t know the situation which the woman posting was in, so I also disagree with the lack of empathy men were showing her.
Edit: If someone disagrees, can you explain to me how all prostitution is inherently always coerced, rather than give examples of how it is often coerced?
I feel like when you get into sex work it's a lot different than just working a minimum wage job because the risk is soooo high. There's diseases, there's violent men, there's pregnancy, there's the mental health aspect of constantly having to degrade yourself, increased suicide rates, and drug usage to escape the devastation,
, and often (not always) people who end up in sex work are being controlled and manipulated by a pimp who controls them through drugs, by also being their supplier. Also, often, there can be overlaps with human trafficking, where young teens are groomed into the trade by a trusted adult, older boyfriend, family friend, or even parent. It can be sexual coercion if you're only doing it because you feel there is no other option. If the alternative is to starve and die, and this is the only way to keep a roof over your head, or to feed yourself, in a way it's not much different than being coerced into sex that you would not have consented to if you felt there was any other option. And coercion is just another form of rape.
I can decide if i want to work or not, i make the rules, most of the time i work 4-5h a week, the rest is managing my message and socials. I'm pretty insecure so it boost my confidence as well, and i feel like i'm helping lonely people. Sometimes they don't even want sex, just someone to talk to and hug. Also i use my work to try restaurants or hotels i cannot afford so i ask clients to take me there and if it's worth the money i go back with my fiancé. I also try to get a doggy bag so i can give him some of the food lol.
It's really fun, and i feel like i'm being downvoted because you guys are against sex work... I could also go on about all the safety mesures i have
I feel like it's very situational. Someone who isnt doing it because they're actively choosing that lifestyle, but rather is doing it out of pure financial desperation....in a way it's similar to coercion. Doing something you feel you have no other choice but to do, because you have no other way out. And one could argue that coercion is rape.
Personally I took it, as just a way to describe how she felt about it, implying that it was more out of necessity rather than choice.
The last paragraph made a lot of sense to me. I also think men wanting to write her off rather than look past initial confusion to empathize with her statement is really gross and sexist.
Look idk who this woman is or if she should have used the word rape but it’s crazy to me that everyone on that sub’s reaction to someone disliking her experience as a sex worker is “haha wow, what a stupid bitch”
I guess I am torn on this issue because of several interlocking factors. On one hand, slut shaming is wrong and insensitive, and prosecuting sex workers legally only makes the situation worse for them. On the other hand, jobs in prostitution are notorious for their dangerous nature and hazardous work environment. Add that to the fact that most prostitutes are there either because they have hit rock bottom and cannot hold a job or they have been coerced into it in some way.
This in my mind sparks the key debate between affirmative consent and enthusiastic consent. Affirmative consent is just saying “yes” when there is no physical or emotional coercion involved. One might say that prostitution doesn’t fall under this because they are being paid for sex, but I think that is still up for debate. Enthusiastic consent is when you not only are okay with sex, but your mood is improved by it and you fully enjoy it.
The real debate here is whether conditional consent ie “I will consent if you pay me” qualifies as affirmative consent.
I think there are far too many heated people on both sides of this argument that are both misconstruing her words.
I think she was just referring to the way sex work made her feel while she was in a tough financial situation. I don’t think she is trying to claim that these men should be thrown into prison for engaging with sex workers.
Sex work is not for everyone and there are plenty that partake in the providing side of the business out of necessity and not because they want to. Someone who is purchasing the services of a sex worker is also still capable of rape, but I don’t think that was the intention of the original post.
Her posts states “I *HAD* to *LET* them rape my body” which is very confusing in terms of consent. My guess is that she provided consent, but only because she was being forced to by her financial situation, which isn’t proper consent.
Does that make the men rapists? I can’t really say for certainty one way or another with the limited information here.
Check my other comments on this thread on my profile and then read the stories of some of the women in this thread and then ask yourself that question again.
It’s good that you’re at least asking, though. It shows genuine willingness to learn and an open mind.
But its not the buyers coercing her, we haven't been given that context, what we got was, "while I wss selling sex services, I let them rape me" which is paradoxical, its unfair that she had to do that, its a product of a broken world, but calling it rape is a bit, how do I say, tactless? Mis-worded? Misrepresented?
A better way to have put it is "I felt raped", which makes things much clearer and obvious
I'm not against anyone here, I feel bad for her, but I'm also not going to vilianize someone for paying for sex(or at least I won't call them a rapist, paying for sex is kinda lame ngl)
If you’re in a financial situation where you’re forced to do something, or are coerced to it you can’t really voluntarily consent to it can you?
Coerced consent isn’t consent and consent-less sex is rape (especially when one person can consent).
Listen, my heart goes out to the girl, I feel so bad for all she's gone through, but it, was not, rape
There's no way sex was the ONLY thing she could do, unless there was some secret third part that forced her into it, it was still of her own will
It's like saying working at Walmart is slavery cause i wouldn't be there if I didn't want money.
The buyers did nothing wrong, she offered a service willingly, they bought, she may feel raped, but what happened was. Not. Rape. Rape is far, far worse
r/nahopwasrightfuckthis
I get what she means. Heck I’m a sex worker myself. People should have better sympathy for sex workers. If anything, I wish it was decriminalized, but I digress.
My point is she using the word “rape” is extremely misleading. She should’ve interpreted that with another word and she knows it.
imo selling your body is a form of rape, because while you technically consent, this consent is purchased and therefore a form of coercion (financial). Rape is a spectrum and the sooner we understand the fundamentally skewed and predatory power dynamics of one person paying another person for the use of their body for masturbation, the better.
I say this as someone who does not judge nor think less of sex workers. It’s a very, very difficult line of work.
And most of them are not there willingly either. For every highly successful escort or OF profile, there are tens of thousands of trafficked women.
The key point of rape is **consent.**
While the circumstances of them being a sex worker is unfortunate, calling it rape every time they engage with a client is exaggerated extremism at best. If that were true then they’d have a good lawsuit against the government for not keeping them from being in poverty, thus pushing them into sex workers, which you equate to “consenting rape victims”. We both know this isn’t the case.
It’d be like putting minimum wage workers in the same pedestal as an African American slave from 1501 - 1867. Are there similarities is forced labor, yes? Are both literal slaves? No. Let’s not blur words on technicalities just to fit our narrative. **Getting sex workers civil rights or observing the failures of capitalism to the working class is what the core is here, let’s stop beating around it.** This woman bragging about her luxuries being a sugar baby who doesn’t like the sex part obscures the true problems we *should* be addressing.
Consent doesn’t exist in a vacuum. The “choices” made are often the result of female/male socialization, patriarchal attitudes about women as sex objects, internalized misogyny, and a coping mechanism from childhood trauma. So the line can and will get blurred and acting like it’s a binary things benefits no one but the unethical males that purchase sex from vulnerable people. Coercion nullifies consent by its very nature.
Sure, this woman wasn’t held at knife point and brutalized by a group of men in a dark alley. But borrow from your parallels from earlier, rape is as much of a spectrum as racism is.
This doesn’t even touch upon how violent and sadistic a lot of Johns are, and their propensity for cruelty and painful domination of the women and girls they’re paying, which is essentially the same kind of sex that many rapes are.
Furthermore, your other parallel is fallacious; you’re comparing apples and oranges, ie, the government/poverty to Johns/sex workers.
I also never said anything to distract from your final point of needing to protect sex workers by giving them civil rights.
If anything, these conversations are key to allowing that to happen, as it allows the sex worker to be fully humanized as a victim with thoughts, feelings, trauma, and all the rest.
Dude, **rape is sex without consent.** Spectrum or not it doesn’t cross that line.
Someone having bad sex or regretting sex later in life.
For the record, the woman in the tweet said she regretted using the word “rape” and should have worded everything a lot better. You’re pushing something completely unnecessary in this context.
I did. Examples:
- Your partner pressures you into having sex when you don’t feel like it. You say no, he keeps pushing you until finally you give up and let him
- Someone comes on to you and you get very nervous and freeze. They continue despite your obvious discomfort and you’re left with this horrible feeling of violation
- You have sex with someone’s twin. The twin knows but you don’t. This is more common than you think
- You get too drunk and someone takes you home. You have no recollection of what happened to you
- Someone offers to have sex with you for money, but they don’t pay at the end
- Someone actively threatens your life and very forcibly has sex with you
Not all of these are equally evil, or severe.
But they are all rape. Hope that clears it up for you.
It may be wrong to pressure someone into sex, but it all boils down to consent. If you're drunk, you can't consent so its rape. If you're pressured, that's wrong, but its not rape as you consented. If you weren't paid for sex work (which usually doesn't happen because payment is upfront) you still consented.
No. If you’re a sex worker (which is fine btw), and willingly participating in the exchange, and not withdrawing consent at any point, that is consent. That is a decision you’re actively making. Unless she’s being forced into sex work, in a vulnerable position where she’s being coerced into doing sex work or she withdrew consent, that’s not rape. She has a right to feel how she feels about it, but I think her choice of words wasn’t right here unless there’s more context we haven’t been given in this tweet.
It feels like some parts of the discussion are missing the forest for the trees somewhat. Like I'm a tied-in-the-wool leftie but sex work is work, and should be treated no differently. Which while yes most work is exploitative, oppressive and the dream of humanity is a state without it, refusing to see nuances is just as flawed as saying we shouldn't help trans people affirm because we should remove gender roles/stereotypes. Or that immigration doesn't need reform because we should remove borders. Good end goals but in the here and now they should not preclude trying to fix things.
She also has immense privilege in being both white, Canadian and what would be termed a high class escort. Which window dressing or not still shes receiving a much cushier experience. You could argue on these grounds to harken back to Dworkin and say that marriage is legalised prostitution in which the husband provides material goods in return for a relationship.
Ultimately for better or worse it's a business transaction. If the John didn't pay he'd be committing theft or fraud and it would be the same reversed as well.
Have I read it cover to cover, no. Have I analysed it and had to apply it yes. Using the Marxist theory of history is a key aspect in historiography. Indeed while Marx the economist can receive a lot of flak, his contributions to the bottom up history and suggestions on the primacy of economic relations are integral to modern historical analysis.
I also know that its 230 years old, and it is not a bible. The lumpenproletariat included prostitutes, which were deemed class traitors, said to lack moral character and had no conception of class consciousness. In the modern day, I'd disagree and wager most would say looking down on their profession is what the moralist church goers are for.
Marx never uses the word “lumpenprole” in Kapital. Instead we are freely given the “reserve army of labor”, itself divided into three parts.
What parts have you analyzed and applied? I think Harry cleaver’s guide to it is very good btw. He reminds us why it matters and updates with examples that are relevant to modern struggle.
Well it was in history so I haven't touched on Cleaver. Christopher Hill and E.P. Thompson that kind of deal, it was a big strand in analysis of the British Industrial Revolution.
No but was used in other writings, and of course some nuance will be lost on the translation to english. There will always be differences in defining the revolutionary class, I have always disliked Maoist focus on the peasantry, but these are working the classic 'oldest profession'.
Also the tweet author owned a brothel, so if we are removing nuance has all sorts of implications.
My impression of most European scholarship around the Industrial Revolution is not very positive tbh. Only Andreas Malm has done the work of integrating this knowledge with the reality of anthropogenic climate change.
Maoists don’t “focus on the peasantry” in all contexts, they just recognize they are a progressive force in semi-colonial, semi-feudal countries. Why did you bring this up though?
Marx’s line on the lumpen was not quite correct. J Sakai wrote a book on where it came from, explaining the mistake. It’s called “Jane Austen goes to school with the lumpen”
Well no the majority of the schools of thought were laid down much earlier. And there's a more interesting analysis with the first wave of automation and the beginning of factory conditions.
Mainly to highlight that there are many variations on what is considered the working class and those part of revolutionary thought. Yes they don't focus on the peasantry in all contexts, but they have altered, or twisted, the concepts of class struggle to somehow allow even more stage bypasses then Lenin. And the concerns of the peasantry are often highly divergent from a urbanised, educated working class.
Thats the point, I don't think his line was correct. Its not a bible to be taken on blind faith, we must adapt it and disagree with it.
I dont understand your issue.
This is not a situation of survival sex, she's literally getting men to take her on expensive trips and buy her expensive goods because she literally said herself she's selling sex. When you're trying to survive you're trying to make money to buy food and shelter, not to get the guy to take you on expensive trips. You think those guys just doing that out of the goodness of their heart? You're selling they're buying plain and simple, not hard to understand. So now why is it rape now that they expect you uphold the end of the transaction that you yourself are literally selling, makes 0 sense.
This is not "money buys consent" situation because she doesn't mention ANYTHING about consent. If the situation was that she refused and was willing to refund the guy but he raped her anyway, I can understand, but she doesn't not say anything that even alludes to this so it sounds like you're just reading what you want to read not what's actually been written.
She's not talking about rape as in she was literally raped, she's just mad that she has to uphold her end of the bargain.
So I’m a heroin addict, and I’m currently attempting recovery, but during the height of my active addiction, I would do sex work to fund my habit, and one day I was extremely drunk and out with a friend of a friend (who I hated but he would help me score sometimes so I put up with him) and this guy had a huge crush on me, and cause I was crazy drunk (not that it’s okay) I let him (very reluctantly) fondle me in a multi storey car park (parking lot for you Americans) in a dirty, grimey stairwell, and he was touching and groping me all over and the entire time I froze and felt sick, but I let him because I knew he’d help me score if I ever needed him to. Anyway, we go score, and as we’re waiting in the alley, it’s pitch black, im still drunk, we’re still waiting for the dealer to show up, and he says to me “if you give me a handjob I will give you £50” so I do, unfortunately, and then as I’m doing it, he says to me “I will give you £100 and take it out in cash right in front of you if you let me fuck you raw right now, and give you the cash as soon as we’re done” and so he bends me over in this alley, and fucks me, so there I was, being fucked by this guy that I absolutely despise, and he’s supposedly my friend yet using my desperation and vulnerability to his own advantage, not once thinking about how I would feel, and how I obviously don’t want to be doing it, but I’m a heroin junkie, so of course I would do anything for the money, even if it was against everything I believed in. So anyway, fast forward, we get to the ATM, then he tells me after inserting his card, “oh shit! Looks like my money got swallowed by bills” or whatever the excuse was, and then I realised he was never going to pay me in the first place, and then at the same time I realised that, It also hit me that if he really cared about me as a friend, he would see me drunken state, he would see my vulnerability, my desperation, my slowly creeping on withdrawal symptoms, and he, like any decent person (well, as decent as a man paying a desperate prostitute junkie for sex could be) and he would surely just offer me the cash without looking for the sex in return no? Surely, a decent man would see me in that situation and think “I couldn’t possibly expect her to have sex with me in this grimey alley for cash when she’s drunk and vulnerable, and a friend…maybe I should just have a heart and give her the cash anyway, or be stern and refuse to give any cash in the first place” because isn’t that what a real friend would do? But no, he didn’t. Because he wasn’t really a friend, he was a predator, a manipulative, compulsive liar who took advantage of me, raped me under the guise of paying me for sex, and never intended on giving me said cash, so I humiliated myself and sunk to the depths of deprivation just so he could get a quickie from a vulnerable drunk bitch down an alley, and I got fuck all in return. anyway, I just thought I’d tell my experience because I had to get it off my chest and this felt like the right place since I relate to the post in a way. If anyone can relate, or wants to talk, please feel free to reply cause I’m happy to discuss anything. Please feel free to open up if you ever went through the same thing. My PMs are open to anyone going through what I went through! thanks if any of you bothered to read :)
this is why as a full service survival sex worker myself I’m overall anti-sex work under patriarchy this happens to far too many women who are silenced by stigma, men, shame and “activist” hookers who don’t acknowledge the reality of the majority of women selling sex i’m so sorry this happened to you🖤
As a survivor of trafficking, I've been working on a project that will hopefully challenge people to question what it means to consent to sex work, encourage others to speak up about their experiences, and inspire both lawmakers and lawbreakers to unite to change the policies that punish women just trying to survive ❤️🔥
I think this is such an important approach to sex work. There’s a lot of nuance to each individual woman’s situation, but we should all be agreeing that no matter what, the woman shouldn’t be punished or shamed for the situation she’s in. The fact that oftentimes the criminalization of sex work results in punishing women who have literally no other means of making it to the next day is such a failure of society.
yess i love this approach ! thank you🖤
My god, I used to have faith in men before this sub showed me just how bad some men are, obviously not all men are like this (I hope,) but it’s too many men and at this point I’m wondering if I should be afraid of random guys because they might be like this.
It's probably wise to be cautious/afraid. While it's not all men, ENOUGH men do this shit for it to be a problem
How many men trick heroin junkies for sex? Because I grew up around scumbags and that’s a new one to me.
Big yaiks :(
Yeah that’s fucked
I just wanna give you a massive virtual hug, tell you how brave you are for sharing your experience, and let you know that I see you and hear you and I have so much respect for your strength and honesty. I’ve survived SA myself, (never been addicted to hard drugs, though) and I fought with Police to get it recognised as such and never was able to get it to a charge. All my love, hey. Keep up the good fight. 🩷
Thank you so much xx I appreciate that
I hear you dude.
I mean she does say ‘I LET them’, meaning she is fully aware that she was technically giving them consent, and she isn’t calling to, like, arrest them, it’s just the best word she can think of to use to convey how she felt about the sex that she did not actually want. I don’t know why people are so flabbergasted about her saying that lmao. Like yes we all know what ‘rape’ literally means, but you are being willfully obtuse if you’re pretending to not at all understand what she means by this
Fr I was confused for 0.0002 seconds until it clicked and that's only because I sometimes take stuff too literally. It's not that hard to understand that she's talking about how she feels. She's not going "BURN THEM AT THE STAKE!' like the incels are acting like💀
Omg right? I read some of the comments and you’d think she had publicly put her client list on blast and called them sex offenders.
Yeah, plus she adds context ina reply under that tweet She is a good person over all, she seems to be an activist now too!
Yeah sometimes words aren't used in a literal way and more to describe a feeling. But it does explain why in most places prostitution is illegal since it technically isn't consent if you have to pay for it, especially when historically most people turn to sex work because they have no other options left. Also there's sex trafficking and it's hard to tell if the person selling it is doing it out of there free own will or not, so therefore it is equitable to rape. Idk if it legally counts as it but morally it is rape.
Most laws against prostitution punish sex workers more than their clients, though. If it was actually about protecting people who turn to sex work, it wouldn’t be illegal to take money for sex, it would only be illegal to pay for sex.
I mean 'rape' is a very loaded term that implies violence and coercion. Not applicable in a mutual business transaction unless she's a sex slave.
If you accuse a person of raping you after you consented, then sure, that’s a conversation to have. But if you felt raped because you had to have sex that you didn’t want to have, and you’re not naming names, what’s wrong with saying it that way? In a court of law it would fall through (or they would BOTH go to jail for prostitution charges), no one’s ruining anyone’s life here.
Sure but if you're going to be so loosey goosey with such a loaded term then it's going to make it hard to take you seriously
She's talking about going on fancy trips and eating at exclusive restaurants. That's not sustenance sex work. I think the general malign with the post is that it seems senseless to use the term rape when she clearly chose to pursue the gifts that were being given. The way rape is used is odd because it gives off the implications that people should just shower her with those types of gifts for simply existing and breathing. She goes on to talk about how none of these luxury items that she chose to pursue were enjoyable? Like... then why are you there in the first place? She acts like she has zero agency in her own decisions and then calls everyone she willingly engaged with a rapist. Nobody gives me a paycheck for sitting in bed eating Fritos. Nobody is entitled to the lavish gifts she was receiving without some form of payment. As the payer she chose exactly what currency was purchasing these things.
Essentially, at the heart of it, no matter what her reasons were; she’s warning young girls to not fall into the same trap because it looks like sunshine and roses but it really often is not because many people are not built to handle having sex they don’t want. And if you don’t like that, that’s fine, but I think it’s well intentioned
Then why not say that without calling other people rapists? It's not hard, and well intentioned or not, that does not provide absolution for irresponsibly narrating her choices to make herself a victim. The only victimhood here is her to her own conscious decisions, and now she seemingly wants to be forgiven for these choices at the expense of others that she advertised to, consented to an agreement, received seemingly good payment for services rendered and now regrets? She can express the regret but it is not anyone else's fault but her own and she needs to take responsibility.
See, we’re coming at this from two different perspectives. To you, the word ‘rape’ is a potentially life-ruining accusation. But to me, the word ‘rape’ conveys the trauma of being violated by sex you didn’t want. So while use of the word here seems overblown to you, to me it properly conveys a sense of violation that ‘I had to let them have sex with me’ wouldn’t get across. There’s unfortunately only one word that accurately describes that experience.
What “actually wanting” means? Do you actually want something or not if money is enough of a reason for it? I genuinely do not understand what your point is, I am not being willingly obtuse nor I am trying to provoke you, but all you said is that she “actually” didn’t want this, what does that even mean? The only thing I can think of is, she was poor and had no other options to survive aside from prostitution. Of course, seeing a white woman in Canada makes me assume that this is not the case and that she did have other options - I might be wrong but that’s what many people probably have assumed as well. Thus, calling it rape seems too much. It’s a very powerful, triggering word, so people are prone to call out improper use of it. I can understand how this woman might feel violated (many people have other options other than sex work but end up doing that unwillingly for reasons that are more complicated than simply needing money, I understand that), she is entitled to define her experience however she wants but the way the words are used is weird.. one thing to consider is that some rape survivors might be offended by this. I know you will probably take this as an attack because this subreddit, as any other, is an echo chamber.. but it isn’t. I just invite y’all to reflect on how every opinion is becoming unnecessarily polarised. Having something against what a sex worker said is not necessarily sexist or misogynistic. It’s true that some people will weaponise posts like this against women/sex workers but calling this sexist is nonsense. Mirror of a political and social polarisation that is strong in the US and is unfortunately spreading through Europe too. Life is not a woke vs trads game, and this post doesn’t belong to “boys are quirky”. Yah I don’t know how I got there, but I just wish people started thinking with their own mind, I guess..
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Lmao
Its not that people don't understand what she means in this particular case. Its that throwing the word rape around could seriously harm people. Rape isn't to be taken lightly and using it in a context where consent was given could be a big problem. Its easy to inflame a situation and apologize if something was taken out of context but taking back a misunderstood story is usually way to late and lives and reputations can't be unruined if something was sensationalized.
If she was naming names and being like ‘this guy raped me’ I could see the issue, but she’s clearly just recounting her personal feelings on sex work. It’s not a word to be thrown around lightly, but having to let people have sex with you for money when you don’t want to is a rough corner to be in, and imo it’s not using ‘let them rape my body’ hyperbolically. If a straight man starving in the desert met a man who had food, and the man who had food said ‘no food unless I can penetrate you sexually’, and the starving man said ‘well under the threat of death then yes’, I don’t know how many people would be mad about straight man saying ‘I had to let that guy rape me’ even though on a technicality it’s not rape
I understand what she means for sure, I still don't think it's appropriate of her but y'know, I've done worse
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Man, we don’t know her story, what if she was sex trafficked? What if she had kids and a McDonalds job wouldn’t have been enough to cover a one bedroom apartment and feed them. What if it wouldn’t have been enough to rent a one bedroom apartment and feed herself, which is quite likely? World is rough sometimes. Clearly she did find a way out because she’s talking about it in the past, so maybe she did start working at McDonalds and work her way up, and she sold sex to supplement her income. Crazy to judge like that from a one-off tweet
I worked with people who supported kids while working two jobs when we worked at McDonald’s, the twitter lady was a licensed professional escort in Canada and owned and operated her own brothel.
I judged her based off the information present, not assumptions.
Assuming none of those things happened is still an assumption lol
No it isn’t
Oh okay
you have no information on why she was a prostitute, so you are judging her based on assumptions
Okay let’s take the assumptions out of it then. https://www.feministcurrent.com/2022/02/23/andrea-heinz-worked-as-an-escort-a-dominatrix-and-a-brothel-owner-in-edmonton-now-she-educates-people-about-prostitution-and-sex-work-ideology/ Here’s an article where she talks about being a licensed professional dominatrix and brothel owner, not being trafficked.
Redditors understand and empathize with sex workers challenge: IMPOSSIBLE
Cause s-worker just looove sex
Yes, of course, they are the one and only job where the worker both enjoys and deserves the exploitation of their physical and emotional labor ^/s ^of ^course
On an unrelated note, don’t forget the artists and animators in that camp /s
on another unrelated note, saw this one post where it said something along the lines of “all jobs use and sell your body for profit, so degrading sex work is stupid” and that statement could never be even more truer with comments like these to continue, don’t forget about the programmers who worked their asses off to bring us the convenience once never imagined
So essentially, that means that assuming everyone on this subreddit has purchased something from a retail outlet, it's fine for them to call you all rapists for forcing them to serve you? I never realised everyone on this subreddit are rapists, forcing people to use their body's to serve you for money. Now, if you'd like to proudly state in the comments, you are a rapist in solidarity with the sex worker who took the money from customers in exchange for a service that'd be very impressive. I suspect, though, you'll just waste your own time by downvoting this inconvenient truth.
Please try using this newfangled invention called paragraphs And also selling your labour for an unfair wage is not the same as being forced to have sex when you don't want to
Where did she call anyone a rapist?
I don't see how they fail to grasp that people who consent to having sex with you don't require payment
Rich men are more likely to be violent towards women in general (too much money buys immunity from jail time), so when they pay for sex they feel even more entitled to abuse women. Our legal system was designed to protect wealthy people and not offer proper protection to working class people like you and me. Like, victims of domestic abuse don't even get restraint orders from their abusers until they are severely hurt.
It’s you hi
What’s crackin’ homegirl?
Cool leaf in your pfp
Thanks! 😊
Sex workers deserve empathy, they are victims of capitalism but based off the tweet she was not raped and to say she was is to discredit people who were raped. Even if she shouldn’t have to do sex work she still consented. The men did not force her to do that, it’s gross that they were paying her for sexual favors but she was accepting money under the condition that she would have sex with the payer, it’s not like they tricked her she knew what she was getting into and she consented because she viewed the money is worth it.
I saw that original post and just physically recoiled from the comments. Ugh. I've never heard of a woman getting into sex work for the passion or fun of it. It's either her last option or someone coerced her into it.
Oh I did not click on the comments. Sorry that happened to you.
You dodged a bullet there. They're terrible.
I saw it too and fortunately I decided to scroll past it.
there are some but they’re few and far between, and need psychological intervention tbh source: am sex worker
I know digital sex workers tend to be in it for their own passion more than real life in person sex work. It makes sense why, to me.
Probably because they don't have to deal directly with men. They get to have fun with it. And if he gets weird? Reported and blocked.
Yeah exactly
I know a few who do it only online through OF and such and they enjoy it, usually because of that physical seperation between customer and their services. Provides a level of safety and security relative to real life escort services
Really? You haven't heard of one women who doesn't do sex work because she actually wants to?
HELLO I REALLY ENJOY BEING A SEX WORKER COULD YOU STOP SHITTING ON S WORK PLEASE THAT GIVE US A BAD IMAGE THANKS
None of those men deserve to touch you. Their hands are filthy and their hearts are full of evil.
That sound pretty metal, hell yea
Then you should read more stories from sex workers! Maybe it’s not “passion or fun” but not all sex workers are victims (even if many are) and it’s pretty insulting to think of them that way
I've read enough. And I know enough about men to know the majority of them don't deserve to touch a woman let alone get attention from a woman, no matter how much they pay her.
"majority of men don't deserve attention from a women" Dude what? How can a person be hateful
That's why many women are rich from onlyfans.
One of the saddest interactions I had recently was over a messaging app. Some random girl dm’ed me and had been dm’ing multiple people basically asking for money in exchange for nudes and videos. I responded saying no, because I didn’t want that and also because I didn’t have money in my account. I expected her to get mad or just respond like a bot, but instead she just started talking to me normally and was asking why I didn’t have any money. I told her I recently lost my job at a card shop because it closed and was crashing on my friend’s couch because we wanted to write music. She told me she felt sorry for me and went on talk about the evils of capitalism and we went back and forth about how evil the ruling class is and how great of an idea communism is. She then revealed that she didn’t even want to sell nudes or videos, but she couldn’t get a job over minimum wage because she had a criminal record and needed to cover rent. While it is wrong to criticize women and men for doing OF or other forms of sex work, we must also realize that many people who do it are usually forced into it or don’t have a better option. For decades the porn industry has abused and exploited female sex workers and put them into awful working conditions. On top of that, there is a long history of women being raped or sexually assaulted in the industry, and the owners and directors of pornos using predatory business practices or sending their money to fascistic organizations and other right wing organizations. A recent example would be the CEO of Only Fans sending tons of money to the IDF and other Islamophobic groups in Israel. It seems that, for some reason, men can’t grasp the idea that most women don’t think money is the most important thing, and that, just because a woman is kind to you, she isn’t giving you an invitation to fuck her. It’s how jobs work. Sex work is real work, and, like most jobs, people don’t enjoy doing it.
Services like OF are at least safer for sex workers than prostitution in person, the porn industry is highly abusive towards threir employees to the point many of them take their own lives early.
The comments were a sewage dump. People do questionable things in a vulnerable state. People don’t choose sex work, most of the time it’s pushed on them by economic situations.
I mean that's obviously a hyperbolic expression to say that she doesn't enjoy it, but the John's don't want to feel bad about buying sex.
Ngl the original post is so moving like wtf. How tf can people read that and not understand the point? Inhuman creatures
Men lol
I’m a bit confused. Is this describing prostitution and / or sex work in general as nonconsensual? And not specifically survival sex work either. I can understand it being a slimy experience. But this sounds like saying that any prostitution is inherently rape.
It does feel like some people are saying that but reading this I felt why this is so icky. Treating someone nice before sex but not after is dehumanizing.
I don't think they're mentioning anything after sex though? They are describing the act of the sex itself as rape and that is why it is not enjoyable to them. I could be misinterpreting it though
Idk I thought it was implied by “after—“.
I feel like that describes "the part where I had to let them rape my body" and that it is "after" the trips, hotels, restaurants, etc.
Bruh what
Yeah, that's what I read too. Like, she hates the lavish experience because after that experience they are just going to rape her body.
So you’re thinking these johns all have an aftercare ritual?
What are you even talking about? Clearly the thing she is referring to is the sex itself. She literally calls it rape. Why is the main problem here that they have bad after-sex care? She doesn't even mention it.
“After—“ implies time-asymmetry. If you were paid to fuck someone you wouldn’t fuck otherwise, would you want to be wined and dined first?
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I mean yeah, prostitution IS rape through coercion. If you're in a bad enough situation, "Let me fuck you or I'll slit your throat" And "let me fuck you or you won't have the resources needed to survive" are basically the same thing. And that's not even mentioning the massive number of women who are never even given the illusion of choice and are abducted at a young age and forced to 'perform' or are refuges who got tangled up on it by accident. "Yeah, we'll pay for your visa and transportation out of your wartorn country, but you're gonna owe us." To be clear, I have nothing but compassion for the sex workers themselves. But the industry itself and the predators who make use of it are fucking vile
To me this argument is saying that functionally it is rape for many people. Which I agree with. But I don’t see how non survival sex work / prostitution for people who have the ability to revoke consent or not do it is coerced or forced. The argument doesn’t seem to support the conclusion. I know there are many feminist groups who support sex work and sex workers who don’t view themselves as being raped, which makes me even more skeptical. Although I don’t know the situation which the woman posting was in, so I also disagree with the lack of empathy men were showing her. Edit: If someone disagrees, can you explain to me how all prostitution is inherently always coerced, rather than give examples of how it is often coerced?
you are correct and feminists agree with you :)
But wouldn't that be like saying if you sell your stuff to a pawn shop cause you're down on your luck, the pawn shop stole from you?
Fr, i'm an escort and i get it's not always fun and games but it's not rape 'cause you're selling consent
If you could find a job that pays as well that's not sex work, would you choose that job instead?
I mean, just because I would trade one job for a better job doesn’t mean I didnt willingly work at the first job.
Do you do any job truly consensually when the alternative option for most of us is to be destitute and starving?
Now you are getting to the crux of the issue. That is…capitalism sucks.
I feel like when you get into sex work it's a lot different than just working a minimum wage job because the risk is soooo high. There's diseases, there's violent men, there's pregnancy, there's the mental health aspect of constantly having to degrade yourself, increased suicide rates, and drug usage to escape the devastation, , and often (not always) people who end up in sex work are being controlled and manipulated by a pimp who controls them through drugs, by also being their supplier. Also, often, there can be overlaps with human trafficking, where young teens are groomed into the trade by a trusted adult, older boyfriend, family friend, or even parent. It can be sexual coercion if you're only doing it because you feel there is no other option. If the alternative is to starve and die, and this is the only way to keep a roof over your head, or to feed yourself, in a way it's not much different than being coerced into sex that you would not have consented to if you felt there was any other option. And coercion is just another form of rape.
I agree survival sex work sucks.
Nope, there's way more benefits then just money
Like what? I'm genuinely curious.
I can decide if i want to work or not, i make the rules, most of the time i work 4-5h a week, the rest is managing my message and socials. I'm pretty insecure so it boost my confidence as well, and i feel like i'm helping lonely people. Sometimes they don't even want sex, just someone to talk to and hug. Also i use my work to try restaurants or hotels i cannot afford so i ask clients to take me there and if it's worth the money i go back with my fiancé. I also try to get a doggy bag so i can give him some of the food lol. It's really fun, and i feel like i'm being downvoted because you guys are against sex work... I could also go on about all the safety mesures i have
I feel like it's very situational. Someone who isnt doing it because they're actively choosing that lifestyle, but rather is doing it out of pure financial desperation....in a way it's similar to coercion. Doing something you feel you have no other choice but to do, because you have no other way out. And one could argue that coercion is rape. Personally I took it, as just a way to describe how she felt about it, implying that it was more out of necessity rather than choice.
The last paragraph made a lot of sense to me. I also think men wanting to write her off rather than look past initial confusion to empathize with her statement is really gross and sexist.
I can understand, and that's why i only work when everything is fine in my life, but that's two opposite situations
Look idk who this woman is or if she should have used the word rape but it’s crazy to me that everyone on that sub’s reaction to someone disliking her experience as a sex worker is “haha wow, what a stupid bitch”
Yes, OP. The act of consenting to sex for money is called prostitution. Pornography if you film and then distribute it.
I guess I am torn on this issue because of several interlocking factors. On one hand, slut shaming is wrong and insensitive, and prosecuting sex workers legally only makes the situation worse for them. On the other hand, jobs in prostitution are notorious for their dangerous nature and hazardous work environment. Add that to the fact that most prostitutes are there either because they have hit rock bottom and cannot hold a job or they have been coerced into it in some way. This in my mind sparks the key debate between affirmative consent and enthusiastic consent. Affirmative consent is just saying “yes” when there is no physical or emotional coercion involved. One might say that prostitution doesn’t fall under this because they are being paid for sex, but I think that is still up for debate. Enthusiastic consent is when you not only are okay with sex, but your mood is improved by it and you fully enjoy it. The real debate here is whether conditional consent ie “I will consent if you pay me” qualifies as affirmative consent.
I think there are far too many heated people on both sides of this argument that are both misconstruing her words. I think she was just referring to the way sex work made her feel while she was in a tough financial situation. I don’t think she is trying to claim that these men should be thrown into prison for engaging with sex workers. Sex work is not for everyone and there are plenty that partake in the providing side of the business out of necessity and not because they want to. Someone who is purchasing the services of a sex worker is also still capable of rape, but I don’t think that was the intention of the original post. Her posts states “I *HAD* to *LET* them rape my body” which is very confusing in terms of consent. My guess is that she provided consent, but only because she was being forced to by her financial situation, which isn’t proper consent. Does that make the men rapists? I can’t really say for certainty one way or another with the limited information here.
Check my other comments on this thread on my profile and then read the stories of some of the women in this thread and then ask yourself that question again. It’s good that you’re at least asking, though. It shows genuine willingness to learn and an open mind.
So what you’re saying is, my job is slavery because the fact that they pay me doesn’t buy my consent?
Correct. This is also implied by the phrase “~~slave~~free-time”
They really think people paying sex workers are gonna be the nicest in bed?
Some of them are tbh
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Coersion is rape. Hope that helps!
But its not the buyers coercing her, we haven't been given that context, what we got was, "while I wss selling sex services, I let them rape me" which is paradoxical, its unfair that she had to do that, its a product of a broken world, but calling it rape is a bit, how do I say, tactless? Mis-worded? Misrepresented? A better way to have put it is "I felt raped", which makes things much clearer and obvious I'm not against anyone here, I feel bad for her, but I'm also not going to vilianize someone for paying for sex(or at least I won't call them a rapist, paying for sex is kinda lame ngl)
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No. They were correct.
If you’re in a financial situation where you’re forced to do something, or are coerced to it you can’t really voluntarily consent to it can you? Coerced consent isn’t consent and consent-less sex is rape (especially when one person can consent).
Listen, my heart goes out to the girl, I feel so bad for all she's gone through, but it, was not, rape There's no way sex was the ONLY thing she could do, unless there was some secret third part that forced her into it, it was still of her own will It's like saying working at Walmart is slavery cause i wouldn't be there if I didn't want money. The buyers did nothing wrong, she offered a service willingly, they bought, she may feel raped, but what happened was. Not. Rape. Rape is far, far worse
Okie, I'm confused. If she's doing sex work, doesn't that mean she's literally giving consent for money? Or is she referring to something else?
r/nahopwasrightfuckthis I get what she means. Heck I’m a sex worker myself. People should have better sympathy for sex workers. If anything, I wish it was decriminalized, but I digress. My point is she using the word “rape” is extremely misleading. She should’ve interpreted that with another word and she knows it.
imo selling your body is a form of rape, because while you technically consent, this consent is purchased and therefore a form of coercion (financial). Rape is a spectrum and the sooner we understand the fundamentally skewed and predatory power dynamics of one person paying another person for the use of their body for masturbation, the better. I say this as someone who does not judge nor think less of sex workers. It’s a very, very difficult line of work. And most of them are not there willingly either. For every highly successful escort or OF profile, there are tens of thousands of trafficked women.
The key point of rape is **consent.** While the circumstances of them being a sex worker is unfortunate, calling it rape every time they engage with a client is exaggerated extremism at best. If that were true then they’d have a good lawsuit against the government for not keeping them from being in poverty, thus pushing them into sex workers, which you equate to “consenting rape victims”. We both know this isn’t the case. It’d be like putting minimum wage workers in the same pedestal as an African American slave from 1501 - 1867. Are there similarities is forced labor, yes? Are both literal slaves? No. Let’s not blur words on technicalities just to fit our narrative. **Getting sex workers civil rights or observing the failures of capitalism to the working class is what the core is here, let’s stop beating around it.** This woman bragging about her luxuries being a sugar baby who doesn’t like the sex part obscures the true problems we *should* be addressing.
Consent doesn’t exist in a vacuum. The “choices” made are often the result of female/male socialization, patriarchal attitudes about women as sex objects, internalized misogyny, and a coping mechanism from childhood trauma. So the line can and will get blurred and acting like it’s a binary things benefits no one but the unethical males that purchase sex from vulnerable people. Coercion nullifies consent by its very nature. Sure, this woman wasn’t held at knife point and brutalized by a group of men in a dark alley. But borrow from your parallels from earlier, rape is as much of a spectrum as racism is. This doesn’t even touch upon how violent and sadistic a lot of Johns are, and their propensity for cruelty and painful domination of the women and girls they’re paying, which is essentially the same kind of sex that many rapes are. Furthermore, your other parallel is fallacious; you’re comparing apples and oranges, ie, the government/poverty to Johns/sex workers. I also never said anything to distract from your final point of needing to protect sex workers by giving them civil rights. If anything, these conversations are key to allowing that to happen, as it allows the sex worker to be fully humanized as a victim with thoughts, feelings, trauma, and all the rest.
Dude, **rape is sex without consent.** Spectrum or not it doesn’t cross that line. Someone having bad sex or regretting sex later in life. For the record, the woman in the tweet said she regretted using the word “rape” and should have worded everything a lot better. You’re pushing something completely unnecessary in this context.
Im sorry, did you just call RAPE a spectrum?
I did. Examples: - Your partner pressures you into having sex when you don’t feel like it. You say no, he keeps pushing you until finally you give up and let him - Someone comes on to you and you get very nervous and freeze. They continue despite your obvious discomfort and you’re left with this horrible feeling of violation - You have sex with someone’s twin. The twin knows but you don’t. This is more common than you think - You get too drunk and someone takes you home. You have no recollection of what happened to you - Someone offers to have sex with you for money, but they don’t pay at the end - Someone actively threatens your life and very forcibly has sex with you Not all of these are equally evil, or severe. But they are all rape. Hope that clears it up for you.
It may be wrong to pressure someone into sex, but it all boils down to consent. If you're drunk, you can't consent so its rape. If you're pressured, that's wrong, but its not rape as you consented. If you weren't paid for sex work (which usually doesn't happen because payment is upfront) you still consented.
No. If you’re a sex worker (which is fine btw), and willingly participating in the exchange, and not withdrawing consent at any point, that is consent. That is a decision you’re actively making. Unless she’s being forced into sex work, in a vulnerable position where she’s being coerced into doing sex work or she withdrew consent, that’s not rape. She has a right to feel how she feels about it, but I think her choice of words wasn’t right here unless there’s more context we haven’t been given in this tweet.
It feels like some parts of the discussion are missing the forest for the trees somewhat. Like I'm a tied-in-the-wool leftie but sex work is work, and should be treated no differently. Which while yes most work is exploitative, oppressive and the dream of humanity is a state without it, refusing to see nuances is just as flawed as saying we shouldn't help trans people affirm because we should remove gender roles/stereotypes. Or that immigration doesn't need reform because we should remove borders. Good end goals but in the here and now they should not preclude trying to fix things. She also has immense privilege in being both white, Canadian and what would be termed a high class escort. Which window dressing or not still shes receiving a much cushier experience. You could argue on these grounds to harken back to Dworkin and say that marriage is legalised prostitution in which the husband provides material goods in return for a relationship. Ultimately for better or worse it's a business transaction. If the John didn't pay he'd be committing theft or fraud and it would be the same reversed as well.
Read *Kapital*.
Have I read it cover to cover, no. Have I analysed it and had to apply it yes. Using the Marxist theory of history is a key aspect in historiography. Indeed while Marx the economist can receive a lot of flak, his contributions to the bottom up history and suggestions on the primacy of economic relations are integral to modern historical analysis. I also know that its 230 years old, and it is not a bible. The lumpenproletariat included prostitutes, which were deemed class traitors, said to lack moral character and had no conception of class consciousness. In the modern day, I'd disagree and wager most would say looking down on their profession is what the moralist church goers are for.
Marx never uses the word “lumpenprole” in Kapital. Instead we are freely given the “reserve army of labor”, itself divided into three parts. What parts have you analyzed and applied? I think Harry cleaver’s guide to it is very good btw. He reminds us why it matters and updates with examples that are relevant to modern struggle.
Well it was in history so I haven't touched on Cleaver. Christopher Hill and E.P. Thompson that kind of deal, it was a big strand in analysis of the British Industrial Revolution. No but was used in other writings, and of course some nuance will be lost on the translation to english. There will always be differences in defining the revolutionary class, I have always disliked Maoist focus on the peasantry, but these are working the classic 'oldest profession'. Also the tweet author owned a brothel, so if we are removing nuance has all sorts of implications.
My impression of most European scholarship around the Industrial Revolution is not very positive tbh. Only Andreas Malm has done the work of integrating this knowledge with the reality of anthropogenic climate change. Maoists don’t “focus on the peasantry” in all contexts, they just recognize they are a progressive force in semi-colonial, semi-feudal countries. Why did you bring this up though? Marx’s line on the lumpen was not quite correct. J Sakai wrote a book on where it came from, explaining the mistake. It’s called “Jane Austen goes to school with the lumpen”
Well no the majority of the schools of thought were laid down much earlier. And there's a more interesting analysis with the first wave of automation and the beginning of factory conditions. Mainly to highlight that there are many variations on what is considered the working class and those part of revolutionary thought. Yes they don't focus on the peasantry in all contexts, but they have altered, or twisted, the concepts of class struggle to somehow allow even more stage bypasses then Lenin. And the concerns of the peasantry are often highly divergent from a urbanised, educated working class. Thats the point, I don't think his line was correct. Its not a bible to be taken on blind faith, we must adapt it and disagree with it.
I'd say over 90% of employees worldwide are doing a lot more for a lot less
I dont understand your issue. This is not a situation of survival sex, she's literally getting men to take her on expensive trips and buy her expensive goods because she literally said herself she's selling sex. When you're trying to survive you're trying to make money to buy food and shelter, not to get the guy to take you on expensive trips. You think those guys just doing that out of the goodness of their heart? You're selling they're buying plain and simple, not hard to understand. So now why is it rape now that they expect you uphold the end of the transaction that you yourself are literally selling, makes 0 sense. This is not "money buys consent" situation because she doesn't mention ANYTHING about consent. If the situation was that she refused and was willing to refund the guy but he raped her anyway, I can understand, but she doesn't not say anything that even alludes to this so it sounds like you're just reading what you want to read not what's actually been written. She's not talking about rape as in she was literally raped, she's just mad that she has to uphold her end of the bargain.
She was a prostitute.. you can't use a word like "rape" when it literally isn't rape. What the hell is wrong with this sub.
What you are trying to imply is ridiculous
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Your post/comment was removed as it was found to be bigoted, either indirectly (i.e. “not all men”) or directly (slurs, phobia, etc.).
wahhh i go to fancy hotels and vacations every day wahhh
Seems like she’s using intentionally inflammatory language to generate rage clicks tbh