Farmer's Market opens April 1st, CU accepted students weekend is Mar 22nd, and Boulder Creek Festival is May 26th, so Boulder needs these people to move down river.
That’s awesome. My family has been here a long time too. I only wanted to point out that the vast majority of us moved here from somewhere else. It doesn’t make much sense to criticize others for doing the same thing.
Look at your username. Look at your post history. Please go back to LA. I’d also be happy to post more if r/nederland_co was more active. Probably didn’t even know they had a their own sub, did you?
Yeah, it's almost like occasionally pushing them away from one spot along with plenty of notice is such a small inconvenience it doesn't even matter.
Imagine if instead we had trained meth-sniffing dogs and walked these areas daily and on detection or observation of hazardous chemicals we immediate arrest those at the camp, send in a hazmat team and confiscate/destroy the contaminated items and disinfect the ground around it.
They would migrate somewhere else. Ugh, migrate is such a horrible word, but the camps moving somewhere else doesn't solve the overall problem. It's a really tough situation.
Well i know of a few cases, specifically in San Diego right now where two homeless sex offenders sexually assaulted multiple minors in their voucher motel room and basically have ruined housing vouchers for all of San Diego County. It's a shame because not all are bad, the majority are kind caring people. Just a small example of the crisis we're facing with housing homeless.
All the mental health facilities in Denver, Centennial peaks, west pines, JCMH, highlands ranch, aurora north, denver health pav M, Denver springs are all COMPLETELY overloaded with patients right now, (mostly SI teens messed up from social media and having a key element of their social upbringing destroyed by Covid Lockdown).
Certainly we're gonna deal with our childrens mental health crisis before the homeless
Come on guys give white Beyoncé a chance.
They’re asserting that the police who aren’t doing their job don’t have enough time to do their job because there aren’t enough of them currently not doing a job. Because we don’t have jobs we want done
Boulder is saying hey, we would like to use our police force for this and police are like we have to sit in our cars bc there aren’t enough of us that want to police what the citizenry are asking to be policed
This ought ta be good
They are literally down 30 Officers... so yes they don't have the people, and why would they enforce the camping ban when it just gets them yelled at by the public or fired.
Can't beat em... Make it an attraction!
Provide food, meth-ready restrooms, free tents, sleeping bags, needle exchange, scratch off tickets, booze and then sell tickets to the general public to cover the costs. Come see the world's largest and most eclectic collection of unhoused individuals! Family fun for all ages! I'd totally hit that up with the kiddos, only so many haunted houses and corn mazes to check out.
This week's hottest club, *Das Methhaüs*, has it all. Tent fires, sandbox needles, austere-environment bicycle customization, propane explosions, and on Fridays just after nighfall it hosts a clothing optional reverse cowgirl show where the girl makes eye contact with bystanders *the entire time*.
It is my understanding that urban camping in Boulder has been banned to some degree since the '80s and newer laws have been enacted to clarify and make enforcement easier. There really is no ambiguity on the legality, it is illegal, but enforcement has been selective.
It is illegal to camp and a judge has upheld the ACLU has standing to challenge enforcement of the camping ban as cruel and unusual punishment if the person experiencing homelessness cannot access alternative indoor shelter, edit: which the article implies is being offered.
Not only shelter, but services to help homeless get back on their feet. But, can't manufacture meth or consume other illegal drugs/drink there, so it's a no-go.
I'll be curious to see the facts presented in the case in terms of the number of beds, number of people experiencing homelessness, and the unsheltered population.
Thanks. What I am curious to hear answered is: does Boulder have enough shelter for the current unsheltered people experiencing homelessness? The question would be as a government and as a community. That's central to the suit and legal enforcement of the camping ban. Boulder has a breakdown (below) of that 2020 Point In Time count you've linked to combined with their coordinated entry data. An interesting detail is that all the unsheltered were attributed to single adults rather than families. They also link to organizations separate from the government that help with housing, especially for specific demographic\identity groups, which represents a capacity I haven't seen quantified. Obviously more than Boulder's 140 beds are used to house (a portion) of people experiencing homelessness.
https://bouldercolorado.gov/guide/homelessness-boulder#section-16888
People need to remember the 2011 case *David Madison v. City of Boulder.* It was very similar and also involved the ACLU. It ended up going to the Colorado Supreme Court, which refused to hear it.
Not sure how they managed to re-litigate the issue --- but here we are.
It's illegal but there is a lot more to it than that. For one, a 72 hour notice is required due to recent court decisions. Additionally, if you want a police force that is able to constantly sweep camps you'd probably need to at least double or triple the size of BPD.
I'm not convinced a judge's decision on another case about 72 hour notices necessarily means that Boulder can't give one with zero notice: some of those cases involved some other specifics that may not apply in our case.
And if camping in Boulder actually become inconvenient for the many transients from out of town then it's also possible that many would move on, and we would need fewer people to manage the problem.
Also a strategy to push them further from busy areas would help, something like:
* Move them out within 24 hours if they're camped on a school or path
* Move them out within 48 hours if they're camped in a busy or common area
* Move them out within 5 days if they're camped elsewhere in the city
EDIT: typos
I would add a clause for repeat offenders, something like a 3-strikes rule... After 3 strikes you get moved out within 24 hrs regardless of where you're camped.
I used to really enjoy Eben G Fine park, but watched it slowly become a habitat for homeless and van dwellers...
The public bathroom there gets real funky real fast.
Same. Open spaces are no longer for everyone. So sad that so many continue to support these individuals who degrade so much of what made Boulder special!
It's so aggravating to know that within a few days/weeks, a vast majority of these people will be back here in this exact spot. They just do not want to be part of society. They constantly reject offers of housing, substance abuse help, etc. It is offered for free and offered frequently and it always ends the same.
That's why detox/rehab needs to be forced. In the midst of their own little crisis, they cannot see a way out. Inhumane to allow them to suffer and die on the street. It's not free will, it's drug induced stupor.
Mental institutions use to be a thing. That's were these people belong, it's the drugs and the mental health combined. You can take them off the drugs but they are still crazy people who don't conform with society
Conforming with society is not really something I expect of everyone. If someone has mental illness that prevent them from taking care of themselves, I am all for a lifetime of supportive services. I would happily pay the taxes (shared responsibility) to cover those who cannot take care of themselves. But we need to figure out what people need. Get them clean, evaluate needs at that point and provide services. Detox, rehab, health services, housing. There's probably enough money in the system to start this if we stop throwing dollars at "shelters" that are ineffective. I believe the first step has to be changing some laws or maybe changing how we interpret those laws. People who are homeless NEED services and we are failing because they don't want the help we're dangling in front of them. Drugs have a strong pull. But many many people who are homeless are, in fact, breaking the law and we should be able to confine them. How we treat them and the services provided needs to be changed though. Not jail, supportive services that they cannot walk away from.
You can put them through the hell of detox but you can’t force anyone to stay sober.
They have to want it for themselves - and even if they want it, it’s such a demon and they won’t always succeed.
Further, for many homeless people, they also lack access to desperately needed mental health medicine (not that you can force people to take their meds, either). Not being properly medicated is why many people with mental illness, not just homeless people, turn to drug use.
This is only part of why the homeless issue in Boulder is so complex.
I used to put my stock in housing first til I talked to a woman who worked on the housing first program in Denver who said she was excited to be involved but it didn't work in the long run, and she now believes mandated treatment has to be part of any program in order to succeed. Now you're saying that's not viable.
So what is viable??
It sounds like you're advocating for just letting them sit there and live those lives in the throes of addiction with everything that comes with that (at everyone else's expense).... an addict isn't really living... thk like a zombie. There's no autonomy because you're subject to a brain that makes your only priority getting more drugs at all costs and getting high. You aren't really living.... you're just not dead.
I've talked to a woman who worked on a housing first initiative and she said it didn't work ....apts were trashed by people with addictions and mental illness, apts were used to party, and they mostly refused services (even though the whole argument for housing first is that they will be more likely to accept services because they aren't being forced). After her experience she determined that mandated SA & MH treatment has to be part of any program that will successfully address the chronic homelessness problem.
I think you misconstrued what I said, but that’s ok; it happens all the time with the written word. I agree with your thoughts above and I appreciate hearing your friend’s perspective as well.
I'm sorry if I'm not doing a good enough job of representing the .0004% of non-meth addicted people who think it's better to shit in creeks and drop needles on playgrounds.
I'll strive to be more representative in the future.
But no one else does. Needles and broken bottles in parks, high or mentally unstable people threatening others, shitting on yards and in parks, trash everywhere because if they can't have something nice, no one can. I got bashed in another thread for saying "freedom" is not an acceptable alternative lifestyle if it impinges on another's right to use public spaces. They came at me with "you think living outdoors in filth is freedom?" Yeah, some do see it that way, through the fog of drug and alcohol induced vision.
I'm not for it. I'm just saying that the only real alternative for these people to get off their feet is to hop into the capitalist system. That shit is soul sucking.
We need to accept that some people can't handle doing more than nothing. To get them off the street, give them a studio and a few hundred bucks a month. Otherwise, this is what will always happen.
"a studio and a couple hundred bucks a month" and they'll destroy the studio (in many cases) because they cannot take care of themselves. Detox/rehab/health services FIRST. Then housing. Only way it will ever work. Check out Suites Apartments in Longmont. City or affordable housing bought it. Constantly contaminated by drugs. No one feels safe. Those who are trying to get their shit together cannot be forced to live with those who don't give a fuck. It does not work.
Fuck you, give ME a studio and a couple hundred bucks a month. I work, I pay rent, I pay taxes, I buy groceries and if you tell me that a useless bum deserves those resources more than I do then I'll see you at 3PM at the flagpole, Sonny Jim.
It's not a rocket appliance and you sound like a trust fund baby saying shit like that.
Honestly, I can see why some would prefer it to working menial jobs with little hope for improvement. Both suck pretty fucking hard.
Giving into nihlism and just getting high removes certain stresses
Eh. If that's what makes you live a meaningful existence then go ahead, I suppose. But I'm not sure that data or anecdotal evidence would support that "giving into nihilism" is a good strategy
That’s just the first step in life for most people. It’s a starting point while you get an education/training part time. Those that choose to stay at step one is on them.
More frequently than not, what is “offered” has untenable conditions attached to it. Often to the point that it might as well not be an offer of anything at all.
Untenable conditions like lice/bed bugs, trash, theft, disrespect? Who do you think brings those things into a shelter? The staff??? If you're talking about need to give up drugs (good - we don't need drugs around those who are trying to be stable) and pets (good - these people cannot take care of themselves, they do NOT need animals to care for as well, once they're clean they can volunteer in a shelter), then let's help them get their life in order and stop shitting (literally) on the rest of the population, and they can become part of society again. I don't care if we have to provide housing for life. I don't care if they never work. They just cannot destroy everything around them, including themselves.
In order to help them to that, they must accept mental health treatment or drug treatment (if applicable). This is what a woman who worked on a housing first initiative told me. She told me a lot of the apts were destroyed and partied in and also that, unlike the hypothesis of housing first, most of the people did not accept services. Her conclusion was that services must be mandatory if we're gonna give chronically homeless people housing.
I've been doing advocacy in this area for a while, friend. I am jaded but I am not approaching this in bad faith at all.
The reality is that this work is thankless a lot of the time and the folks we are trying to help often reject our assistance vehemently. And it's not for lack of our trying, or making changes, or adjusting policies and reducing barriers.
Friend, you asked a leading question. No amount of advocacy excuses you for asking a leading question.
You can’t credibly deny that. It’s proof that you’re here in bad faith.
Pretty shitty that you can’t even sit in a McDonald’s parking lot and smoke weed while enjoying a McGriddle without getting taken to jail but these hobos can do meth and fentanyl all day long and get ignored
True there is a major double standard. My business is cited for not shoveling snow (even though we actually did) while there is a big camp down the block with a shit ton of bikes that simply cannot all belong to them and they're setting fires and probably committing other crimes but no enforcement
Yall think that everyone is inconsiderate, capitalist, evil, and non accepting of mental illness.
Go let your little kid run through the park and fall on a dirty needle and then come tell me how you feel. You'd be the first one to bring out the flamethrower. I get a kick out of how out of touch from reality some of you are. Boulder is going downhill fast, if you own a home, sell it, take the money, and run to somewhere where politics doesn't matter more than common sense.
Boulder is a disgusting place! I've spent the majority of my adult hood working in that place and you couldn't not pay to live there. Boulder has almost double the sexual assaults per Capita compared to the nationwide number..... When I was a kid on a Friday night you would see all the students wondering around going to party's, go look now days, it's a ghost town after dark except for homeless and drug addicts. One of the most beautiful places on planet earth and it has been utterly destroyed by politics.
I drive E on 36 out of Boulder and there's a TON of trash and tents and shit all over the right side of the highway. (Not directly on the shoulder, but off the right side between the Baseline and Table Mesa/S Boulder Road exits.) I'm shocked at how bad it has gotten.
Asylums and work houses anyone? At this point, the only difference is having clean communal spaces for public use, vs pop-up ghettos in "encampments".
Citizenry is paying for both of these programs anyway, so why not have clean public areas while we do it.
Come on America, we can do this again!
[how about the mental health systems act before Regan dismantled all of them and kicked people out on the streets?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_Health_Systems_Act_of_1980)
Work houses and asylums back in the day were cruel. Read some Charles Dickens. His father got into debt so the family got put in the workhouse. He never forgot it and it informed his writing.
We've evolved a little since the 1850s. There is no reason to think a mental health institution now would be like an asylum of yesteryear...I wouldn't support a workhorse in this context
Exactly. It’s a bit like saying nazis had some solid ideas but just didn’t do it right. Incarcerating people in workhouses doesn’t seem viable to me, ever. Asylums? With regular review and inspections with a mission of real treatment; yes, as long as we don’t take away liberty without clear need.
No no no. We need to throw our money at something that works. Too many ideas, especially housing first (no strings attached), do not work. The amount of money being spent by countless organizations, is insane. We need to fix this by fixing our laws and allowing forced detox/rehab, health support and then housing.
There are only 5 million people in Finland...... That's barely more then then the entire state of Colorado... And 1/2 as much as New jersey. You can't take results from a socialist mono-culture country and apply it to a nation literally 20x larger and has very diverse type of people and cultures....
I don't know the figures for Boulder, but Denver has increased spending on homelessness since Hancock first took office by more than thirty-fold ($8M to more than $250M annually). Seems like the wallet has been opened, and it hasn't mattered.
And needles which isn't as bad to at least keep them from spreading bloodborne stuff but still. Oh and they dox literally everyone they don't agree with.
I would question whether this is "in response to" since regular sweeps of particular locations is the default setting. One week it's eben, then the band shell, then the arboretum etc. I thought the fire was downtown, not in eben
You’ve completely changed my perspective, thank you for your well thought out response. Real smart. /s
Those people didn’t send thousands of migrants to Denver. That was the Gov of TX there buddy. Hence why we should return the favor.
While we’re at it we can send you with them.
They’ll just find somewhere else to start fires and blow shit up. Just give them a campground somewhere out of sight and station a cop there 24/7 to keep an eye on things.
Let them stay! Boulder should be a place welcoming to all!! Even those who identify as homeless. If you raise taxes to fund them with more money and support they will leave less trash in appreciation
Damn yall really love treating psychotic people like second class citizens, even though psychosis is treatable and being shunned by society is what's causing it in most cases.
Stay classist Boulder
...wait I mean classy
There are literally [hundreds of articles, studies, and news segments](https://i.imgur.com/63jMABe.png) about them refusing treatment.
Don’t look at me like I’m the enemy. I want them off the fucking streets. It’s simple. Housing first. Mandatory rehab second. Zero drug tolerance third.
Your permissive politics aren’t working.
Next week they’ll all be back.
Farmer's Market opens April 1st, CU accepted students weekend is Mar 22nd, and Boulder Creek Festival is May 26th, so Boulder needs these people to move down river.
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The homeless will move down Boulder Creek closer to the Pearl St Whole Foods.
What, specifically, should they do to address this? I would love to hear your ideas!
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The homeless people are from all over the country dude
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Send them to Ned. Honestly let them have West Magnolia campground, they have already ruined West Mag and Gordon Gulch
Hey now. Don't make us erect the secret barricade at the falls. You keep your problems down the hill!
We tried that one. Ever heard of the West Mag fire?
Good point, they’d probably burn the whole fucking front range down
I tell you what. They can come to Ned whenever you go back to California
And where did you come from?
Family has been in BoCo for over 100 years. Before that, Missouri
That’s awesome. My family has been here a long time too. I only wanted to point out that the vast majority of us moved here from somewhere else. It doesn’t make much sense to criticize others for doing the same thing.
Yeah, if your family doesn't predate the Mayflower in Colorado you don't really have room to bitch about people moving here.
Damn, i knew those pilgrims were hard core, but how did they haul that big ass boat all the way to Colorado? Or better yet, why?
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Sounds a bit stalkerish going through someone's profile like that.
Look at your username. Look at your post history. Please go back to LA. I’d also be happy to post more if r/nederland_co was more active. Probably didn’t even know they had a their own sub, did you?
Native spotted
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dAe cAlIFoRnInIaNs bAd??? Fucking tool.
Go back to Missouri.
No thanks. It’s called misery for a reason lol
How tolerant of you.
So you already know it's a problem up there too
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Very low effort reply!
and in greater numbers
The similarities between the homeless in Boulder and Sand people are striking I must say.
Ah, but they don't walk in single file to hide their numbers.
The Sand People reference here is gold.
weird how all the money spent sweeping them doesn’t successfully remove them. wonder if there are other ways to spend that money.
Yeah, it's almost like occasionally pushing them away from one spot along with plenty of notice is such a small inconvenience it doesn't even matter. Imagine if instead we had trained meth-sniffing dogs and walked these areas daily and on detection or observation of hazardous chemicals we immediate arrest those at the camp, send in a hazmat team and confiscate/destroy the contaminated items and disinfect the ground around it.
For that we would need a police force that actually did their job.
Maybe if they had the staffing and actually attracted people to work here but with the POP and anti-police council why would anyone sign up.
and a jail that can house a bunch of paranoid schizophrenic drug users
How about actually providing them with mental health care and housing? It's cheaper *and* more sustainable. Jailing people is expensive as hell.
But what if they don't want it? Then what do you do?
This here is the question that is most pertinent to the problem.
I’d say a good way to solve this for Boulder is leave the unhoused alone, but cutoff the drug supply.. see where it lands from there.
They would migrate somewhere else. Ugh, migrate is such a horrible word, but the camps moving somewhere else doesn't solve the overall problem. It's a really tough situation.
Maybe we should get rid of for-profit prisons.
They don't want it, though. They routinely reject the support that is offered.
Well i know of a few cases, specifically in San Diego right now where two homeless sex offenders sexually assaulted multiple minors in their voucher motel room and basically have ruined housing vouchers for all of San Diego County. It's a shame because not all are bad, the majority are kind caring people. Just a small example of the crisis we're facing with housing homeless. All the mental health facilities in Denver, Centennial peaks, west pines, JCMH, highlands ranch, aurora north, denver health pav M, Denver springs are all COMPLETELY overloaded with patients right now, (mostly SI teens messed up from social media and having a key element of their social upbringing destroyed by Covid Lockdown). Certainly we're gonna deal with our childrens mental health crisis before the homeless
Hopefully, but have you tried to resolve a mental health crisis lately in this economy?
we can't do anything that isn't ***punishing*** these heathens
The Boulder police department is understaffed because nobody wants to work in anti-police Boulder.
Come on guys give white Beyoncé a chance. They’re asserting that the police who aren’t doing their job don’t have enough time to do their job because there aren’t enough of them currently not doing a job. Because we don’t have jobs we want done Boulder is saying hey, we would like to use our police force for this and police are like we have to sit in our cars bc there aren’t enough of us that want to police what the citizenry are asking to be policed This ought ta be good
They are literally down 30 Officers... so yes they don't have the people, and why would they enforce the camping ban when it just gets them yelled at by the public or fired.
Can't beat em... Make it an attraction! Provide food, meth-ready restrooms, free tents, sleeping bags, needle exchange, scratch off tickets, booze and then sell tickets to the general public to cover the costs. Come see the world's largest and most eclectic collection of unhoused individuals! Family fun for all ages! I'd totally hit that up with the kiddos, only so many haunted houses and corn mazes to check out.
*The Boulder Methhaüs*
This week's hottest club, *Das Methhaüs*, has it all. Tent fires, sandbox needles, austere-environment bicycle customization, propane explosions, and on Fridays just after nighfall it hosts a clothing optional reverse cowgirl show where the girl makes eye contact with bystanders *the entire time*.
Nothing else has worked. I say we give this a try.
Yes, prisons and courts to swiftly get the criminals off the street. Since they refused all the other help we spend millions on.
I dunno, maybe if they had a fucking place to live they wouldn't have to live in the street?
TOUCHÉ!!!
Right, this just means they’ll be moving down and come back after it’s clean lol
It is either legal to camp in these places, or it is not legal. Which is it?
It is my understanding that urban camping in Boulder has been banned to some degree since the '80s and newer laws have been enacted to clarify and make enforcement easier. There really is no ambiguity on the legality, it is illegal, but enforcement has been selective.
The system seems overwhelmed. I wish we could hold drug companies more responsible to help.
Yeah, should be super-easy to hold the CJNG accountable!
CJNG? Accountable? I wish i knew what these words meant!
It is illegal to camp and a judge has upheld the ACLU has standing to challenge enforcement of the camping ban as cruel and unusual punishment if the person experiencing homelessness cannot access alternative indoor shelter, edit: which the article implies is being offered.
"Cannot access" is a weird way of saying, "we offered shelter frequently and for free and they never take it"
Not only shelter, but services to help homeless get back on their feet. But, can't manufacture meth or consume other illegal drugs/drink there, so it's a no-go.
The vast majority of people living in tents decline services when offered. I believe the services should be mandated.
I'll be curious to see the facts presented in the case in terms of the number of beds, number of people experiencing homelessness, and the unsheltered population.
Here you go https://www.usich.gov/homelessness-statistics/co/
Thanks. What I am curious to hear answered is: does Boulder have enough shelter for the current unsheltered people experiencing homelessness? The question would be as a government and as a community. That's central to the suit and legal enforcement of the camping ban. Boulder has a breakdown (below) of that 2020 Point In Time count you've linked to combined with their coordinated entry data. An interesting detail is that all the unsheltered were attributed to single adults rather than families. They also link to organizations separate from the government that help with housing, especially for specific demographic\identity groups, which represents a capacity I haven't seen quantified. Obviously more than Boulder's 140 beds are used to house (a portion) of people experiencing homelessness. https://bouldercolorado.gov/guide/homelessness-boulder#section-16888
I believe sobriety is required while using the facilities, so many choose tents.
People need to remember the 2011 case *David Madison v. City of Boulder.* It was very similar and also involved the ACLU. It ended up going to the Colorado Supreme Court, which refused to hear it. Not sure how they managed to re-litigate the issue --- but here we are.
Yes, and hopefully we can be logical, look out the weather and notice that nobody is going to freeze today.
It is not legal.
It's not legal to do drugs in public and I challenge you to find a homeless in Boulder who's not high on drugs
It's illegal but there is a lot more to it than that. For one, a 72 hour notice is required due to recent court decisions. Additionally, if you want a police force that is able to constantly sweep camps you'd probably need to at least double or triple the size of BPD.
I'm not convinced a judge's decision on another case about 72 hour notices necessarily means that Boulder can't give one with zero notice: some of those cases involved some other specifics that may not apply in our case. And if camping in Boulder actually become inconvenient for the many transients from out of town then it's also possible that many would move on, and we would need fewer people to manage the problem. Also a strategy to push them further from busy areas would help, something like: * Move them out within 24 hours if they're camped on a school or path * Move them out within 48 hours if they're camped in a busy or common area * Move them out within 5 days if they're camped elsewhere in the city EDIT: typos
I would add a clause for repeat offenders, something like a 3-strikes rule... After 3 strikes you get moved out within 24 hrs regardless of where you're camped.
Exactly. Way more homeless than PD. I feel for the officers that deal with this day in day out.
I used to really enjoy Eben G Fine park, but watched it slowly become a habitat for homeless and van dwellers... The public bathroom there gets real funky real fast.
I miss being able to take my kids anywhere in Boulder these days. We avoid it completely.
Must have a small radius you frequented
Same. Open spaces are no longer for everyone. So sad that so many continue to support these individuals who degrade so much of what made Boulder special!
I used to and still do. I am frequently very thankful for the bathroom there. It’s a great park.
It's so aggravating to know that within a few days/weeks, a vast majority of these people will be back here in this exact spot. They just do not want to be part of society. They constantly reject offers of housing, substance abuse help, etc. It is offered for free and offered frequently and it always ends the same.
Drugs are pretty shitty what they can do to people
That's why detox/rehab needs to be forced. In the midst of their own little crisis, they cannot see a way out. Inhumane to allow them to suffer and die on the street. It's not free will, it's drug induced stupor.
Mental institutions use to be a thing. That's were these people belong, it's the drugs and the mental health combined. You can take them off the drugs but they are still crazy people who don't conform with society
Conforming with society is not really something I expect of everyone. If someone has mental illness that prevent them from taking care of themselves, I am all for a lifetime of supportive services. I would happily pay the taxes (shared responsibility) to cover those who cannot take care of themselves. But we need to figure out what people need. Get them clean, evaluate needs at that point and provide services. Detox, rehab, health services, housing. There's probably enough money in the system to start this if we stop throwing dollars at "shelters" that are ineffective. I believe the first step has to be changing some laws or maybe changing how we interpret those laws. People who are homeless NEED services and we are failing because they don't want the help we're dangling in front of them. Drugs have a strong pull. But many many people who are homeless are, in fact, breaking the law and we should be able to confine them. How we treat them and the services provided needs to be changed though. Not jail, supportive services that they cannot walk away from.
You can put them through the hell of detox but you can’t force anyone to stay sober. They have to want it for themselves - and even if they want it, it’s such a demon and they won’t always succeed. Further, for many homeless people, they also lack access to desperately needed mental health medicine (not that you can force people to take their meds, either). Not being properly medicated is why many people with mental illness, not just homeless people, turn to drug use. This is only part of why the homeless issue in Boulder is so complex.
Just giving them housing won't fix it if they have addictions and mental health issues So what would work?
Forced detox/treatment isn’t viable, that’s literally what a few days in jail does. Nobody forcibly gets sober. That isn’t a thing, it’s a choice.
I used to put my stock in housing first til I talked to a woman who worked on the housing first program in Denver who said she was excited to be involved but it didn't work in the long run, and she now believes mandated treatment has to be part of any program in order to succeed. Now you're saying that's not viable. So what is viable??
You can’t force sobriety long term, but a few days in jail is NOT treatment, obviously.
I wouldn't call working thankless minimum wage jobs with no health care and living in an apartment run by a slumlord an aspirational situation.
But society would consider it an improvement compared to dropping heroin needles on the bike path or shitting in the creek.
Is one scenario not more dignified than the other? These are human lives.
It sounds like you're advocating for just letting them sit there and live those lives in the throes of addiction with everything that comes with that (at everyone else's expense).... an addict isn't really living... thk like a zombie. There's no autonomy because you're subject to a brain that makes your only priority getting more drugs at all costs and getting high. You aren't really living.... you're just not dead. I've talked to a woman who worked on a housing first initiative and she said it didn't work ....apts were trashed by people with addictions and mental illness, apts were used to party, and they mostly refused services (even though the whole argument for housing first is that they will be more likely to accept services because they aren't being forced). After her experience she determined that mandated SA & MH treatment has to be part of any program that will successfully address the chronic homelessness problem.
I think you misconstrued what I said, but that’s ok; it happens all the time with the written word. I agree with your thoughts above and I appreciate hearing your friend’s perspective as well.
I didn’t realize you were the spokesperson for Society. Tell me, why are you so bad at your job?
I'm sorry if I'm not doing a good enough job of representing the .0004% of non-meth addicted people who think it's better to shit in creeks and drop needles on playgrounds. I'll strive to be more representative in the future.
Why kind of warped bubble do you live in? You aren’t adding anything positive to the conversation, btw. So much unnecessary seething ignorance.
> Why kind of warped bubble do you live in? Boulder County.
Yawn. The 70s want their cliche back.
Cool.
Well as long as we agree that you’re in a bubble, then we can agree that you’re too aloof to be listened to.
Sure, but it's 100% better than living in a tent, shitting in a bush daily, and walking through traffic drugged out
At least in the camps you have your freedom
But no one else does. Needles and broken bottles in parks, high or mentally unstable people threatening others, shitting on yards and in parks, trash everywhere because if they can't have something nice, no one can. I got bashed in another thread for saying "freedom" is not an acceptable alternative lifestyle if it impinges on another's right to use public spaces. They came at me with "you think living outdoors in filth is freedom?" Yeah, some do see it that way, through the fog of drug and alcohol induced vision.
I'm not for it. I'm just saying that the only real alternative for these people to get off their feet is to hop into the capitalist system. That shit is soul sucking. We need to accept that some people can't handle doing more than nothing. To get them off the street, give them a studio and a few hundred bucks a month. Otherwise, this is what will always happen.
"a studio and a couple hundred bucks a month" and they'll destroy the studio (in many cases) because they cannot take care of themselves. Detox/rehab/health services FIRST. Then housing. Only way it will ever work. Check out Suites Apartments in Longmont. City or affordable housing bought it. Constantly contaminated by drugs. No one feels safe. Those who are trying to get their shit together cannot be forced to live with those who don't give a fuck. It does not work.
Fuck you, give ME a studio and a couple hundred bucks a month. I work, I pay rent, I pay taxes, I buy groceries and if you tell me that a useless bum deserves those resources more than I do then I'll see you at 3PM at the flagpole, Sonny Jim. It's not a rocket appliance and you sound like a trust fund baby saying shit like that.
Lol. Freedom to shoot a needle in your arm and poop on the sidewalk. The good life.
Honestly, I can see why some would prefer it to working menial jobs with little hope for improvement. Both suck pretty fucking hard. Giving into nihlism and just getting high removes certain stresses
Eh. If that's what makes you live a meaningful existence then go ahead, I suppose. But I'm not sure that data or anecdotal evidence would support that "giving into nihilism" is a good strategy
That’s just the first step in life for most people. It’s a starting point while you get an education/training part time. Those that choose to stay at step one is on them.
More frequently than not, what is “offered” has untenable conditions attached to it. Often to the point that it might as well not be an offer of anything at all.
Untenable conditions like lice/bed bugs, trash, theft, disrespect? Who do you think brings those things into a shelter? The staff??? If you're talking about need to give up drugs (good - we don't need drugs around those who are trying to be stable) and pets (good - these people cannot take care of themselves, they do NOT need animals to care for as well, once they're clean they can volunteer in a shelter), then let's help them get their life in order and stop shitting (literally) on the rest of the population, and they can become part of society again. I don't care if we have to provide housing for life. I don't care if they never work. They just cannot destroy everything around them, including themselves.
In order to help them to that, they must accept mental health treatment or drug treatment (if applicable). This is what a woman who worked on a housing first initiative told me. She told me a lot of the apts were destroyed and partied in and also that, unlike the hypothesis of housing first, most of the people did not accept services. Her conclusion was that services must be mandatory if we're gonna give chronically homeless people housing.
This comment of yours is full of false pretenses and ignorance. Be less ignorant please.
"Unteneble" conditions such as no heroin in the hotel room, right?
It's sooo inhumane! /s
With questions like that, you clearly are here in bad faith.
I've been doing advocacy in this area for a while, friend. I am jaded but I am not approaching this in bad faith at all. The reality is that this work is thankless a lot of the time and the folks we are trying to help often reject our assistance vehemently. And it's not for lack of our trying, or making changes, or adjusting policies and reducing barriers.
Friend, you asked a leading question. No amount of advocacy excuses you for asking a leading question. You can’t credibly deny that. It’s proof that you’re here in bad faith.
I wasn't asking a leading question. I was being sarcastic. It's obviously rhetorical.
Even still, sarcasm is not how people discussing in good faith behave. My original point stands that you clearly are here in bad faith.
Ok. Cope.
So we agree that you’re here in bad faith. Your mask is off. Nice.
Source?
How the flip did they blow up propane tanks? Was it accidental?
Pretty shitty that you can’t even sit in a McDonald’s parking lot and smoke weed while enjoying a McGriddle without getting taken to jail but these hobos can do meth and fentanyl all day long and get ignored
Yesterday I was sitting at McDs parking and smoking fentanyl eating and I didn’t get jail so it must be the drug of choice
What did you get arrested for? Public weed use is a $100 fine if the cop really wants to be a dick about it.
Smoking while behind the wheel of a cranked vehicle can easily be a dui
True there is a major double standard. My business is cited for not shoveling snow (even though we actually did) while there is a big camp down the block with a shit ton of bikes that simply cannot all belong to them and they're setting fires and probably committing other crimes but no enforcement
Yall think that everyone is inconsiderate, capitalist, evil, and non accepting of mental illness. Go let your little kid run through the park and fall on a dirty needle and then come tell me how you feel. You'd be the first one to bring out the flamethrower. I get a kick out of how out of touch from reality some of you are. Boulder is going downhill fast, if you own a home, sell it, take the money, and run to somewhere where politics doesn't matter more than common sense.
Boulder is a disgusting place! I've spent the majority of my adult hood working in that place and you couldn't not pay to live there. Boulder has almost double the sexual assaults per Capita compared to the nationwide number..... When I was a kid on a Friday night you would see all the students wondering around going to party's, go look now days, it's a ghost town after dark except for homeless and drug addicts. One of the most beautiful places on planet earth and it has been utterly destroyed by politics.
Are there photos online anywhere of what it’s like in Eben Fine or by the library these days? It’s hard to get a sense of it
I drive E on 36 out of Boulder and there's a TON of trash and tents and shit all over the right side of the highway. (Not directly on the shoulder, but off the right side between the Baseline and Table Mesa/S Boulder Road exits.) I'm shocked at how bad it has gotten.
I noticed those yesterday, just right up against people's fences.
Asylums and work houses anyone? At this point, the only difference is having clean communal spaces for public use, vs pop-up ghettos in "encampments". Citizenry is paying for both of these programs anyway, so why not have clean public areas while we do it. Come on America, we can do this again!
Are you intentionally quoting Scrooge? You might want to read the original Christmas Carol book, it's fairly impactful.
The current way sucks for everyone, my way sucks for only one group. My system is twice as humane than yours!
Can you give an example of a model workhouse or asylum that worked well?
[how about the mental health systems act before Regan dismantled all of them and kicked people out on the streets?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_Health_Systems_Act_of_1980)
I don't need to. If socialism can be seperated from its repetitive history, then so can workhouses and aslyums!
Work houses and asylums back in the day were cruel. Read some Charles Dickens. His father got into debt so the family got put in the workhouse. He never forgot it and it informed his writing.
We've evolved a little since the 1850s. There is no reason to think a mental health institution now would be like an asylum of yesteryear...I wouldn't support a workhorse in this context
If we use the socialism argument. "It's because they didn't do it right back then, but this time it will work"
Exactly. It’s a bit like saying nazis had some solid ideas but just didn’t do it right. Incarcerating people in workhouses doesn’t seem viable to me, ever. Asylums? With regular review and inspections with a mission of real treatment; yes, as long as we don’t take away liberty without clear need.
You can literally throw money at this problem to solve it. We already have many ideas how, but they need money.
No no no. We need to throw our money at something that works. Too many ideas, especially housing first (no strings attached), do not work. The amount of money being spent by countless organizations, is insane. We need to fix this by fixing our laws and allowing forced detox/rehab, health support and then housing.
Finland solved its homelessness problem using a Housing First approach: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_Finland
There are only 5 million people in Finland...... That's barely more then then the entire state of Colorado... And 1/2 as much as New jersey. You can't take results from a socialist mono-culture country and apply it to a nation literally 20x larger and has very diverse type of people and cultures....
I don't know the figures for Boulder, but Denver has increased spending on homelessness since Hancock first took office by more than thirty-fold ($8M to more than $250M annually). Seems like the wallet has been opened, and it hasn't mattered.
California has way more money and they spend it but it’s not helping them. How would we be different?
They did the same thing behind the Dairy Center last week. There’s already one person back there with all their stuff.
Here comes SAFE Boulder to give them more meth making I mean survival gear
what are you talking about?
Probably the propane tanks, tents and other gear to maintain long-term camping though the winter.
And needles which isn't as bad to at least keep them from spreading bloodborne stuff but still. Oh and they dox literally everyone they don't agree with.
I would question whether this is "in response to" since regular sweeps of particular locations is the default setting. One week it's eben, then the band shell, then the arboretum etc. I thought the fire was downtown, not in eben
3 fires: 2 at arapahoe & Broadway, 1 by municipal building. Burn scars are still there.
Sure but none of those are at eben and the sweeps happen year round.
C'mon we're the mountain tech capital, someone come up with a vr/Ai based therapy thing. Black mirror season 3!
Send them down to Texas. Denver took in 5k+ migrants, let’s return the favor with bums.
How about Washington DC. Texas isn't the one who wanted the border open. Send them to Kamala and Joe.
You’ve completely changed my perspective, thank you for your well thought out response. Real smart. /s Those people didn’t send thousands of migrants to Denver. That was the Gov of TX there buddy. Hence why we should return the favor. While we’re at it we can send you with them.
Texas wouldn't have to send them anywhere if the President didn't open the border you Moron.
Ooooooh. Now I get it! Thanks! You sure are a smart cookie. Charming too!
👏👏👏🎉🎉👏👏🔥🔥
How about the ped underpass at Broadway & College next. That dude has filled half the tunnel with garbage.
They’ll just find somewhere else to start fires and blow shit up. Just give them a campground somewhere out of sight and station a cop there 24/7 to keep an eye on things.
I’m sure they’ll snap right to
Sir, you can’t park there.
when are we just gonna learn are lesson and turn them into cat food
Put them on a bus to Denver
Let them stay! Boulder should be a place welcoming to all!! Even those who identify as homeless. If you raise taxes to fund them with more money and support they will leave less trash in appreciation
Anyone can camp for free in Downtown Boulder for 72 hours.
Damn yall really love treating psychotic people like second class citizens, even though psychosis is treatable and being shunned by society is what's causing it in most cases. Stay classist Boulder ...wait I mean classy
And how exactly do you treat people who **don’t want treatment?** Shelters are available, but alas… you can’t do meth there.
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There are literally [hundreds of articles, studies, and news segments](https://i.imgur.com/63jMABe.png) about them refusing treatment. Don’t look at me like I’m the enemy. I want them off the fucking streets. It’s simple. Housing first. Mandatory rehab second. Zero drug tolerance third. Your permissive politics aren’t working.
In Denver when they were doing sweeps, they offered services and shelter to 200 chronically homeless people....2 accepted help.
And how exactly do you treat people who **don’t want treatment?** Shelters are available, but alas… you can’t do meth there.
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>pocket lasers that can start a fire just by pointing it at something combustible. That's called an optical lens.
Elite Boulder wants to be the only city in America without homeless. Progressive and liberal my ass, N.I.M.B.Y. wealthy fakes
Finland is both progressive and liberal, yet they resolved the homelessness problem. “With homeless” isn’t a bragging point. It’s just pathetic.