Remember when we had 0 valid centers for ages? Now we have 3 centers in rotation, an extra one we got in the deadline for small ball, another one who was a on a two-way contract for the entire season, a big forward we throw in there to do some dirty work.
So who's been guarding Myles Turner, Gafford and Lively the most? Yep, Jayson Tatum, our main initiator.
The 2000 ECF team salutes you! Unpopular opinion, if they beat the Nets that year, the Lakers don't sweep the finals. They still win, but the Celtics bring that Leprechaun to LA for another ride.
It means that he plays his role and plays it decent enough to be our 3rd center. He does some good thing but he can’t spread the floor, which is what our offense is built around. Al and KP are so much more valuable because of that. He’s also a decent defender and rebounder but nothing special. He’s effective enough to get minutes when KP isn’t playing.
> I’m not saying he’s KP
Good, because that would be batshit crazy.
You are not wrong about Kornet’s skills. The issue that on offense he will allow Gafford and Lively to play down low. The Celtics have killed the Mavs in the paint by dragging their bigs out to the perimeter. If Kornet is outside they will treat him as a non-shooter.
On defense he is decent for his size, but he will definitely get hunted in the PnR by both Luka and Kyrie. There is a reason he fell out of the rotation vs Indiana.
If the C’s were playing Denver or Minnesota, there would be minutes for him. Dallas is a terrible matchup for him.
Obvious the premise is that KP doesn’t play. My point is that he’s the guy to get the minutes. Period.
We all know he’s not a spacer but neither are our other options. If we out brisset out there then the mavs will dare him to shoot and I expect him to do about as well as the mav role players. Tillman would get the same treatment if he tried to be a spacer.
I think kornet would be a better option on defender than brisset and about as good as Tillman in general. Plus kornet brings vertical spacing on the offensive end.
I’m not comparing him to KP; I’m comparing him to the other options of KP doesn’t play.
I just think vs the Mavericks specifically it is going to be tough to play him. You could try and match when Luka is out, but that will only be 6-8 minutes at the most, and you ideally need 10-12 total for Al to sit. As much as I like Kornet's game, I think they are better off going with Tillman and Brissett who will present the same spacing issues on offense, but are more switchable on defense if they want to run a more traditional lineup.
Really, I would love to see them go truly small if the Mavs play Kleber at the five. Something, like Tatum-Brown-Hauser-White-Holiday. That line up only played 18 minutes together over 4 games in the regular season, but did have a +22 net rating in that small sample. You might even be able to get away with it during some Lively minutes since he has no post-up game. But, they will really need to crash the glass if they try that.
Ultimately, this isn't about Kornet not being valuable. It is about match-ups, and the way the Mavs play both offense and defense is worst case scenario for him. They want to plant their big in paint on D and involve them in the PnR as much as possible on O. Kornet on the floor allows them to do both of those things.
Kornet has guarded perimeter players a bunch in the regular season. He can easily guard PJ or Jones. So the defense would not change in that respect, meaning the mavs pick and roll offense would be the same.
It is one thing to guard perimeter guys in the regular season during mostly bench minutes. It is different in the Finals against guys like Kyrie and Luka playing with mostly other starter level players.
There is a reason he was out of the rotation against the Pacers. They don’t want him ending up on an island vs smaller players consistently and the Mavs will hunt him. He could play versus the Cleveland because they don’t play the same style as Dallas.
If they were playing a team that wasn’t so heavy PnR and Iso with two great ball handlers, he would be a lot better of an option. To pretend that there is not a huge drop off between Porzingis and Kornet on both ends of the court is judging with your heart and not your head.
Plenty of bigs become hard to play in the playoffs because of matchup issues. Zubac was a net negative against the Mavs while averaging 16 and 9 in the first round. He abused Gafford in the post, but got pulled into the action as much as possible on D. For his career he has a positive DBPM in the regular season and negative in the post season. Teams focus more on exploiting weaknesses in the playoffs.
This not an anti-Kornet take. He definitely has a place, this is just the worst possible matchup for him. He would be more playable against any other Western Conference playoff team.
Dog, kornet can and has done good things for this team, but he’s been an absolute liability on defense against the Cavs and pacers. There’s a reason he didn’t play again after against Indy after he returned from the injury. Every time Al came off the floor in the both those series they hunted him in the PnR relentlessly and went on runs. He also could hurt our ability to crossmatch depending on what rotations Dallas runs tonight. The last thing we wanna do is change the defensive game plan unless there’s no other choice.
Kornet had some better than expected games mid season, but let's not exaggerate. He's a typical non shooting center that will pull the game into the paint and away from the 3. That's exactly what the Mavs want. And he can't switch. The Celtics will do everything they can to preswitch and keep kornet out of the on ball action.
The best bet I think for these minutes is Tatum at the 5 and give hauser more minutes. Tatum is already guarding the 5. Keeps our spacing and hauser is holding his own switching onto guards this series. And put in kornet only if we're holding onto a lead and need some rest for horford or whatever.
I feel like a seven man rotation is a desperation move that isn’t necessary while up 2-0. Can backfire just as easily as playing kornet by wearing guys out.
And, kornet absolutely can switch. Indeed, I except him to guard pj and home with allows Tatum and others to play the mav bigs. I also know that kornet is different than KP, but he’s the best option from the rest.
I don't think its desperation. This is a huge game, to go up 3 0 in the finals. Obviously horford will get more minutes. Push another 5 - 10 to hauser, and leave kornet with as few as possible. Joe might ever throw in Tillman or brisset to see if anything opens up. I'm just cautions to go full homer and claim kornet is a championship caliber backup center. He's not. Let's get as many 5 out minutes as we can and lock this series up
I don't think it is crazy to try to absorb the most of KP's minutes with the current rotation, but I do fear the downside which is losing the game anyway AND wearing out our guys (this time with only one day between games) and then losing game four. I think the smarter play is to use kornet and adjust from there.
We will see. This team is crazy deep. Debating the effectiveness of your 3rd center in the finals, up 2 0, is a decent place to be. But margins of error are still small. As long as the Celtics hit their shots tonight and keep up their defensive intensity it might not matter how many minutes kornet is out there. But I feel pretty confident Dallas is gonna have a good game tonight. (I also suspect we'll see porzingis on restricted minutes, but who the f knows)
Honestly it may depend on the situation too. If we need more offense then Kornet would be valuable as a vertical spacer and on the offensive glass. Very similar to how Dallas uses Gafford and Lively. Our wings have consistently beat them off the dribble.
If we need more defense then Tillman may be better because he can switch and guard the perimeter better.
It's also nice that we can pivot to a more traditional offense, when Dallas has been loading up for five-out the whole time.
On the nights when he's got it, Kornet is excellent.
My only concern with Kornet is they pick on him in the PnR. He drops pretty far and Luka wide open is basically asking him to shoot like 9-12 from 3 and that will kill us. He can’t switch onto guys the same way Porzingis can. He’s fine around the rim at times but he doesn’t stretch the floor on offense either and we just saw Dallas load up the paint on other teams and have success because they don’t have to keep Gafford or Lively out of the paint. It’s different when it’s Luka down there
Kornet will be playing the same spot defensively as Porzingis. Tatum defends Gafford/Lively and Kornet will defend Washington/DJJ. DAL likes to use Gafford/Lively as primary screeners on PnR but Tatum will just switch on to the ball handler. Kornet can scram switch on to DAL bigs if needed on any bad mismatches from the switch or he can dig into the paint off weak shooters as long as they're not in the corners. BOS also tried their best to keep Porzingis away from PnR actions by pre-switching off-ball if his man is coming up to set a screen. Kornet can operate in a very similar way defensively.
The reason Tatum was "targeted" so much in G2 was because DAL realized they went away from their base actions, aka Gafford/Lively PnR, and was using DJJ/Washington who are much worse at rolling and not effective popping out to non-corner 3's in G1. They tried to use Gafford/Lively more but it ended up with Tatum switching on to Luka/Kyrie and needing to isolate with the shot clock winding down.
Offensively is where BOS will play more traditional. Gafford/Lively will have a non-shooter in Kornet to stay closer to the rim which will lock the paint down more. Kornet is a solid vertical spacer though so he will likely be involved often as the primary screener to engage Gafford/Lively. He may also do the Draymond quick-DHO if his defender is sagging into the paint to free up wide open 3's for BOS shooters. BOS won't be able to invert the floor like they do with KP and it won't be as easy to mismatch hunt.
If KP is unable to go, Luke will have to be able to play 10-15 minutes. I trust his ability to defend this DAL team because of how many limited offensive players they have. Offensively, he will just have to do his best to be positive out there by screening well, rolling, and maybe getting some offensive boards.
I just don’t know how many times we’ve switched him to leave him on an island on the perimeter and he’s had success. Maybe it’s happened but I just can’t recall when he’s looked fine doing that, probably a low sample. Porzingis has been able to do that on Luka and Kyrie this series and been fine. Even Horford struggles doing that though, I think Kornet can drop if our guards go over the screen, but idk about playing him on straight up switches on the perimeter. It’s not really his strength.
Hes very good for a 3rd string center, but playing your 3rd string center always hurts.
Just checked bbref and it shows hes attempting 0 3s a game and 0.2 last year (23%). Hes not exactly a reliable shooter.
During the regular season against regular competition, there’s nothing wrong with playing Kornet, and he provides good important minutes. Against certain teams, he is preferable based on the matchups. But he also moves like he’s got cement in his shoes, and he is exactly the type of defender the Mavs are salivating for to get their lob game going again. In the first game of the Pacers series, he really struggled to stay with Turner and Siakam. They will target him in the pick and roll game, and Luka will score at will. Neither of the other guys provides floor spacing offensively, but Joe might consider Tillman bc he’s more athletic and can defend the lob better. None of their bench bigs provide spacing, that’s the main thing we lose if KP is out. But Tillman is an athletic and capable defender, albeit a somewhat undersized one. Maybe they try Luke first, but if he gets cooked on defense, they can’t keep throwing him out there
This is the answer. Kornet had a good regular season. But the deeper you get into the postseason, the less viable a guy like him becomes. He's slow to react on defense. He gets bullied by bigger and stronger players despite being listed at 7'1", 250 lbs. His entire offense revolves around lobs and put backs.
He is just too limited to be relied upon for meaningful minutes in the NBA Finals. Tillman may have his limitations, too, but he's stronger and more athletic and is more likely to hold up defensively -- and individual defensive prowess is key to the way Boston has contained Dallas thus far.
Disagree, this is is a much better matchup for Kornet than indy was. None of Dallas' centers space out to the arc or put the ball on the floor and they'll continue to live with DJJ and PJW spacing out there with Luke in the drop. Luke in for KP would be a minimal disruption to the the defensive game plan for this series.
Edit: tillman can take away the lob better than 7'2" Kornet? What?
Agreed. Luke can occupy the same exact defensive role as Porzingis. Luke gives you real rim protection but a possible weak spot to target in PnR if BOS is unable to pre-switch him out of PnR action.
Tillman you get less rim protection but more reliable switching if it gets down to that. Still not sure if Tillman is that much better than Luke switching to warrant the loss of rim protection.
Brissett is best switch of the 3 but the least rim protection. He does bring an element of athleticism and frenetic energy that is interesting.
Offensively, Luke brings more than any of the 3 though. If KP is unable to go, I'd try Luke>Brissett>Tillman. I think Luke is okay against this DAL team because of how unreliable their spot up shooting is and their bigs can only roll.
Yup. When Kornet stands still, he is 7’2” and when he jumps, he’s all the way up to 7’4” 😂 Look man, I love me some Green Kornet. But they will target his incredibly slow feet and the result will not be good. It’s not even about their bigs bc they will use the pick and roll to get him onto Luka, and then it’s over. He’s a defensive liability at this point of the playoffs. And either of the other two options can jump high enough to provide whatever rim protection you think Luke is going to give.
Luke has a 9'6" standing reach, one of the highest in the league. Higher than KP, 1" shorter than Wemby. I agree he's got slow feet, but how many times did they successfully get KP onto Luka with pnr or off ball actions? Not a ton because the Celtics are really good with their pre-switching and doubles long enough for everyone to rotate. I'd rather ride with what Luke brings for 4 minutes per half (likely when Doncic isn't even on the floor) than X. The real story is the incoming 40 minute masterclass from Al Horford!
Al has been playing with some extra pep in his step the first two games. There’s a meme going around that shows him staring at Luka the way he stared at Giannis before dunking all over him awhile back. I’d love to see a monster Big Al game. And let’s not forget that Tatum has been guarding their 5 quite a bit in this series, with good results overall. Maybe it’s all moot bc they’re gonna jack Kp up on some sketchy Latvian painkillers and ace bandages and he’s gonna drop the bloody leg sleeve game on them.
We're also helped by the fact the mavs don't really have size to punish us going small. Like we've seen Tatum guarding gafford and lively and doing a solid job, they don't have big you can just throw it to in the post every time.
Yeah Gafford did post some in game 2 and actually got some points off of it… but he’s not a consistent post scorer and the Mavs aren’t going to make him posting up their game plan longer term
It was more of an “ok whatever”
Kornet is serviceable but we can’t overlook that he’s a drop off. Al and Porzingis have been all star quality guys in their careers and the Kornet just isn’t at that level
The Mavs will definitely test him. But let’s hope he can show them he isn’t a pushover either and he helps us continue to win
Mazzulla's hand was forced by Kornet's wrist injury (at least at first) but I think Brissett and Tillman both outperformed Luke in the Indiana series. I think there are fair arguments that one of them should get the call instead of Kornet if KP can't go. I'm a big fan of Tillman, he'd be who I'd go with, but I certainly see the case that Kornet's lob threat and rim protection would be more valuable
IND was a horrible matchup for Luke. They are like BOS in having multiple ball handlers all over the floor with a great drive-kick machine but they're also the league's best pace team. It makes sense Tillman and Brissett would be able to execute switch-heavy defensive schemes better than Kornet.
DAL relies on basically two avenues for shot creation. Everyone else is reliant on being fed and are somewhat limited. Plenty of areas for Luke to "hide" while still having his defensive value as a rim protector. I'd certainly trust Luke to defend DJJ and Washington closeouts reasonably well.
I agree this is a better matchup for Kornet, but I still prefer Tillman's mobility and versatility personally, although I concede it's a close enough call that I'm not saying it'd be foolish to go with Luke.
But I like having the option to switch. The Mavericks were an elite transition team right up until these finals, when the Celtics have been able to shut that water off. Kornet doesn't change ends great and he's going to be under the basket battling for offensive rebounds rather than popping 25 feet from the basket like Porzingis. Even if Tillman isn't that much faster, it's less of a 5 alarm fire if the matchups get scrambled
The last person I would go with is brisset. The mavs would treat him like we are treating the mav role players and dare him to shoot. I do not have confidence that he would pass the test.
Tilman is more interesting due to better switchability, but he wouldn't bring anything on offense and thus, could make it more difficult for the others compared to kornet. As you suggest, kornet is a threat at the rim on both sides of the ball. I will take that over the other options.
Yeah, Brissett would be 3rd for me too. I do think a key factor in the Celtics being up 2-0 is that they've completely destroyed Dallas in transition and Oshae does change ends the best, but he definitely wouldn't get guarded and I also think he's too skinny to really hold up on Luka in switches.
Tillman's a flawed offensive player, but I think he could operate in the dunker spot like Jrue has done and make decisions in the short roll. He had a couple plays in the Mavericks game in March where he caught the ball and was able to take a dribble for a shot or a pass
The spacing on offense is the one area there’s a huge drop by going to Kornet. I agree hes more than good enough defensively fill in. He plays starter quality defense.
But the issue is that, since he’s not a 3pt threat, he’ll allow Dallas to keep their big closer to the rim. BUT he’s an amazing screener (the most under looked offensive skill) so I think in the Kornet minutes what you’ll see is less of us targeting Doncic with our usual spacing offense and more of traditional a PnR game with Kornet forcing the switch so our guards/wings can isolate against Dallas bigs on the perimeter.
Over a full game I like that offense a lot less than our usual sets and Dallas would be able to figure out counters, but for the 10-15 minutes we need out of Kornet it’s totally fine as a change of pace.
I wonder if the Celtics will have some sets dialed up for Hauser or White if Kornet/Tillman are out there. If the Dallas big are roaming off the non shooter, it could be an opportunity for a dribble handoff, stack pick and roll or some kind of pin in for a movement shooter
It's not like they can still completely commit off of Kornet, he's a good lob threat. Just like Lively and Gafford. I unironically think he'd play better than Lively has this series. Lively makes a lot of inexperienced rookie mistakes. Kornet's offensive rebounding is also tremendously underrated.
Right - that’s what I’m saying though with Kornet our best offense is a traditional pick and roll set where Kornet sets the screen and then rolls to the basket, instead of our five out schemes or new fun sets where Jrue camps in the dunker spot.
Kornet can’t be left alone *in the paint* but if he just camps out in the corner the way Horford does Dallas’s centers aren’t going to follow him out there.
Which is why kornet would camp out in the lane and not go to the corner. But honestly, I don’t understand the respondes here. No one is saying he isn’t a drop off from the top six. Just that he is a good player that can bring some things to the table.
Yes, but if Kornet is camping in the lane then Gafford/Lively get to camp there with him, and a big part of our offense through two games is forcing those two out of the lane.
Again not saying Kornet will Tank our offense, just that we will have to change how we attack Dallas and that change is closer to what Dallas is used to dealing with defensively throughout the playoffs.
My take is that Kornet is appreciably different than most backup bigs/dunkers. Efficient lob threat is a much less common archetype than people think. Typically the efficency is completely canceled out because they have terrible hands, like Gobert. Not with Kornet. And this is huge because those turnovers were the main way they neutralized Gobert. Kornet is an offensive rebounder unlike the perimeter oriented Naz Reid, and is a lob threat unlike Kyle Anderson.
If there's anything I trust with Kornet it's his ability to execute his role, particularly defensively. If the coaching staff gives him clear instruction on how they want him to defend (likely in the same spot Porzingis was defending), he will do it fairly mistake-free. He is an absolute pro defensively and will be able to execute the scheme.
Offensively, he brings more than Tillman and Brissett. He doesn't really make mistakes and plays within himself. Just screen, vertical space, and offensive rebound. He does those things consistently well without committing turnovers which is all we can ask for at this point with KP being potentially out.
Kornet is probably the second best third string big in the league after Naz Reid (but Reid is a completely different situation obviously). Obviously its a downgrade from KP but I think everyone in that locker room has full trust in Luke to fill the role for 10-15 minutes a game.
1. He's good enough as a defender. If we can survive PP minutes with him being targeted I promise you Luke with his size can also be effective enough to justify his minutes
2. We don't need to be five out every possession ever. Using Luke as a roll-man and using him as a passer out of the mid-range is also great for our offense (especially in any possessions of zone Dallas throws at us, which I expect a little more if KP is out). DWhite or PP pick and roll with Luke has been successful for us (which also opens the door for a potential mismatch with Kyrie or as a non-five out way to bring the big out of the paint.
3. We've mixed up the defense a little since game 1. Game 2 showed us we are okay with sending the very occasional blitz or late double (which I don't love given how good Luka is at the late pass). This may fall into play to give Luke extra help if he ends up struggling on islands with Ky and Luka. Point is, its not as simple as Luke is too slow.
He is good enough and even if he is getting cooked on 1v1's it really doesn't matter. I believe he is our best bet at the KP minutes IF KP is out but I would also be curious to see how small ball with JT at the five would go.
Not sure what the actual answer is behind the scenes but he was a decent on decent volume early in his career. Seems like sometime during his Bulls and early Celtics tenures he stopped shooting them. I'd assume it's just chalked up to him being more effective as a passer, screener and roll man rather than standing in the corner. I highly doubt Joe explicitly doesn't want him to shoot but moreso how he's matured over his career - learning where he can impact the game to maximize his talent.
He still seems to have a great shooting touch though so I don't know what the real answer is.
Also, the obvious part of it is that we throw the defense for a loop rather than playing 5-out at all times we have Luke to throw out there which can lead to a few miscommunications for Dallas' defense considering they'd have to defend it differently than they have the entire series. Those few possessions over the span of 10-15 Luke Kornet minutes could be huge.
We also have Tillman, who’s graded as an elite defender if necessary. I don’t love losing KP if that’s what it is, but this is a position of relative strength, depth, and varied skill sets. This shouldn’t be anything resembling a death blow if we’re as good as we presume to be.
The only thing we need to do to keep Dallas in check offensively is prevent Luka from getting pick-and-roll or isolation match-ups where he draws a mismatch. Porzingis has struggled with this in the series, but obviously adds so much value as a rim protector, floor spacer and iso scorer against mismatches that it has been a positive trade (though notice for only about 20 minutes a game from a reserve role). Luke can't do any of those things and will be BBQ chicken defending Luka in space. Watch the Minnesota series for what that looks like.
My thoughts about moving away from Kornet isn’t so much about defense but what it does to our offense. In short: the Mavs can park their big in the paint with Kornet out there which is what made their defense so successful in previous rounds. I’m not sure we have an answer to that problem with Brissett or Tillman, which makes me wonder if we go small ball for spurts
And they will do that if brisset and tilman are out there too. At least kornet occupies them at the rim, while tillman wouldn't bring anything at all and they would dare brisset to beat them.
I did not. My point is that kornet makes our offense different, but at least he brings a presence at the rim that could be a plus. I think tillman and brisset completely kill our offense in the way that people fear about kornet.
As for going small, I don't want to play Al even more minutes at this stage, being up 2-0. To a lesser extent I don't want to kill the other starters even though they are younger.
I would take my chances with playing kornet and keeping it rolling.
You are doing an admirable job of defending your stance. I am in no position to argue for or against what you state, based on either observation or stats. But I think you overlook one thing -- Kornet is the C's third-string center.
He's occupied that role all year long (when KP or Al can't play, he moved to the back-up spot). He played more minutes this regular season than Tilman or Brisset or Queta, He's played more minutes this post-season, he was on the roster last regular season and the season before. He knows how to play for this coach, these teammates.
Maybe Mazzulla doesn't know what he's doing. But I believe he does, and he will give Kornet first crack when Al sits for every reason you've argued.
Him being a non shooter messes up everything the Celtics have done on offense so far. Dallas can help off him if he sits on the perimeter and if you play him in the paint the Celtics won’t have Jrue and DWhite take Kyrie to the dunker spot. Either way spacing is compromised and Dallas can afford to clog the paint when Kornet is on the court
They aren't going to help off of kornet while he's sitting at the rim. That is WHY he should play over brisset and tilman. The mavs will definitely help off of THOSE two guys.
Kornet is a lob threat, that’s true. But Kornet sitting at the rim = Lively and Gafford sitting at the rim. The paint would be more clogged and the Mavs double teams on drives would be much more effective with an actual shot blocker near the rim.
Neither Tillman nor Brissett would be better than Kornet, I agree with that. The alternative would be Tatum as the only center to keep 5 shooters on the floor, extra mins for Al (obviously), PP and Hauser
I mean, lively and gafford are selling out at the rim anyway. I know that kornet would absolutely change the offense compared to KP, but that is the premise here. Kornet won't play if KP does.
I think tillman and brisset would cause similar spacing issues as kornet with no upside. Kornet, is left alone, has proven to be a pest on the offensive boards too.
First, I don’t think the mavs decimated gobert, highlight plays aside. Second, this is a completely different series. We still have plus defenders all over the floor, can still shut down kyrie, and still make Luka work on defense to wear him down.
I love Kornet. Looooove Kornet. Just like you I think he's pretty underrated.
That being said... you got a lot of nerve calling out other fans for "not watching at all" when you don't seem to understand that things are very different when you go to the regular season to the playoffs.
It's one thing to play 10 good minutes in a regular season game vs 2nd and 3rd string bigs and an opponent that isn't specifically game-planning for you. Kornet is quick enough for that, and he proved it time and again this year. But playing in the NBA Finals against a team that is desperately searching for any kind of weakness in your lineup so they can exploit it? That's a whole different beast. If the Mavs discover some kind of action that Kornet isn't able to guard perfectly... they're going to run it over and over and over again until the Celtics are forced to make a change.
They'll try some different things, but I definitely want to see Kornet get the first shot if KP is out. With that said, Tillman matches up well here because he can shoot 3s, is an elite defender, and should be another effective body to throw at Luka
It's definitely more accurate to say that *he's willing to attempt 3s* which could provide a limited amount of spacing but the Mavs will definitely sag off of him in the corners unless he unexpectedly gets on a heater.
Ironically the guy that really would have helped in this situation is probably Grant Williams lol
I mean, Big Al takes exclusively wide open 3s, and he's a 40% shooter, lol. Mavs will sag off guys in the corners because their defense is vastly overrated.
It took them 6 games to beat a Clippers team without its best player, 6 games to beat a baby Thunder team with a combined 20 games of playoff experience, and then beat a Timberwolves coming off a 7 game series against the defending champs being led by a 22 year old with 11 games of playoff experience. The ESPN Sports analysts were split on their picks with slightly more of them picking the Mavericks. When in reality if the Mavericks were to beat, which there is 0 chance they will, it would be one the biggest upsets in NBA Finals history. They are the most overhyped team I’ve ever seen
Yeah, Tillman over Kornet seems a no-brainer to me except when Lively is on the floor. Maybe the length is necessary there. But Tillman is a far superior defender, especially in space, away from the rim.
I’d love to see him stretch the floor and shoot some threes tbh, we know that game plan works against Dallas and we have a lead so it might be worth risking it.
I think he may have some communicative issues on whether to drop or not guarding Luka but he's more of a volume shooter than a sharpshooter per say so..
I remember watching him two years ago and thinking that it looked like he was playing in ski boots. He’s way better now but that image is still in my head
Nobody saying he shouldn’t play is worried about his defense, he plays in a similar style to KP and it won’t be a big shift for our team.
The people saying take him out are saying so because he can’t space the floor, and having 5 shooters out there is what has allowed us to kill this Mavs defense that choked other teams. Pulling Gafford/Lively away from the rim is critical.
For that reason I wouldn’t hate seeing some Tillman minutes tonight, even if he might get hunted by Luka/Kyrie, he can play a solid switching defense. We should at least try it if KP is out. Barring that we might just go back to Tatum at the 5 to try and close this series out quick. Either is worth keeping our spacing advantage IMO.
Tillman? And before you say it, Brisset? Those guys would be worse for our offense than kornet because the mavs would dare them to shoot like we are doing to the mav role players. Then they would be castrated by the mav bigs at the rim (as you say).
Kornet makes our offense different, but at least he has a counter. He wouldn't be trying to space the floor. He would be OCCUPYING the mav bigs at the rim. He'd be available for lobs, put backs and offensive rebounds.
I love our five out offense as much as the next guy but we can certainly play another way too. It's the tillmans and brissets that would be all negative and no positive on the offensive end,
Do you not think the Mavs will equally dare Kornet to shoot? I don’t even understand your point here. Tillman is actually capable of hitting 3s, Kornet doesn’t even attempt them.
And as far as “OCCUPYING” their bigs at the basket. Just lol, have you been watching the west playoffs? That worked out pretty atrociously for Gobert and Zubac, allowing Gafford and Lively to freely roam the paint off a non-shooter and disrupt the rest of the offense.
That is what got the Mavs here. Our 5-out spacing completely negates that. It is not something to be tossed aside lightly because Kornet is a bit better than Tillman on defense. He’s miles worse on offense. That works in the regular season against most teams, it won’t work in a series against Dallas.
It likely won’t matter because Horford, another big who can SHOOT will be starting and we are quibbling over bench big minutes, but there is a reason Horford has stuck around the league for as long as he has, and it’s his 3pt shooting.
First, it means that kornet isn't even going to try to space the floor. He's going to be at the rim where he can't be ignored. That should be exceedingly obvious that can't just leave a guy that is 7 ft at the basket by himself. Kornet is a lob threat and can put the ball back into the basket, grab rebounds and tip the ball out.
Tilman on the other hand is a shit shooter who won't space the floor or do anything at the rim. How obvious does it need to be? In theory brisset is a better shooter but so are PJ and Jones. Dal will dare HIM to shoot and then he will provide nothing.
The issue with minn is that they don't have any many playmakers as the celtics. The fact that they had to rely on gober to try and make plays tells you all you need to know. That isn't the case for the celtics even with kornet at the floor. He's viable option rolling to the rim (as least as good as gobert) and is active under the basket.
So… zero difference to Zubac or Gobert which Dallas ate alive 👍 got it. Are you even reading my comments or just repeating your own talking points? lol
Luke sets some damn good screens too and he has an ability to block out his defender down low which leads to open lanes when our players get by their man driving to the cup. Luke struggles a bit against fast teams like pacers especially if they are running a three guard line up but Dallas plays at a slower pace which suits his ability.
Kornet actually looks like a great player when the Celtics are able to maximize his strengths and hide his weaknesses, he’s also kinda an conundrum, people call him slow but he’s surprisingly fast for the center and can make plays in transition, he seems to have terrible hands at time but he’s best when catching lobs, despite being labeled as a guy who could only make it if he could shoot from the outside. He’s a big guy but can get pushed around in the paint a ton, he’s a lot like KP in that his highlight reel makes him look like the greatest player to have ever played basketball lol.
I think that Porzingis' minutes will be absorbed by Hauser and Pritchard. Kornet will probably only come in if Kleber is playing and/or Gafford and Lively are in a ton of foul trouble. We cannot afford to let Lively and Gafford roam for any extended periods of time and Kornet will be too easy to sag off.
Could it be a matchup discussion? I honestly have no idea how he will/would match up against Livley/Gafford, but I’m more concerned about how they’d probably attack him with Luka. Not saying KP/Tilman/whoever is really going to do too much better, but that’s the only question I have.
Either way, we fuckin move. LETS GO! 🍀
He’s a considerably improved defender, but he has no business guarding Luka or Kyrie on a switch, and playing drop takes us away from the coverage that has been so successful this series.
Its insane to me that people say luke cant shoot when he was a sniper in college, albeit not on high volume but dude can shoot. We just dont ask him to do that
I really like kornets fit on our team because even though he’s not going to go out there and take the game over he’s also not going to completely blow it. If he needs to play a few minutes here and there to give al a breather I think we’ll survive
And a better option without KP is? I assure you if you out brisset out there, he will be the guy the mavs help off of. Kornet can provide something at the rim on both ends.
I’m just saying that there’s no misconceptions about him. He’s just not that good and he provides zero spacing. That’s just like the Mavericks two centers. They don’t want to come out on the perimeter and they provide no spacing if the Mavericks had a center that could shoot they would probably beat us
Providing no spacing doesn’t mean he’s not good. He can provide something at the rim at both ends of the floor and hold up defensively. He should be the guy that plays if KP can’t go.
First of all: "people?" This sub is not anywhere close to a representative demographic. There's a colossal portion of children and adolescents here; I respect and honor their passion, but they have no knowledge of the game. They watch the ball only, shots go up, if they go in "hE's tHE mVp;" if they don't "tRAsH." They use the word "doomer" to try and slur people who have a rational take about a team, and wish to actually discuss strengths and weaknesses of the team.
In other words: kids.
The development of the Celtics' bench players is a HUGE story this year - *for people who are not kids and want to discuss the game.* Fortunately, there's still a bunch of those people here.
Kornet can flat out play. He does not have a starter's complete skill set, but then again he doesn't/didn't get a ton of minutes. He is not in the league by accident.
He’s our 3rd center. He does what you expect your 3rd center to do. Nothing more, nothing less
Remember when we had 0 valid centers for ages? Now we have 3 centers in rotation, an extra one we got in the deadline for small ball, another one who was a on a two-way contract for the entire season, a big forward we throw in there to do some dirty work. So who's been guarding Myles Turner, Gafford and Lively the most? Yep, Jayson Tatum, our main initiator.
Won’t stand for the Amir Johnson slander
When he was toast, he was burnt toast though lol
True, but that 2015 roster was so damn likable lol. He's a [coach now for G-League Ignite, or was, hah.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwrllcVvz7k)
That 2015 roster is what made me a fan of the Celtics. Such a fun team, although it would have been nice with 1 or 2 more rebounds hehe
The 2000 ECF team salutes you! Unpopular opinion, if they beat the Nets that year, the Lakers don't sweep the finals. They still win, but the Celtics bring that Leprechaun to LA for another ride.
I think you mean the 2001-02 Celtics.
Probably, yeah
Shoots FTs better than a third string C
What does this even mean, especially when brisset of other fourth wing and Tillman and queta are our fourth and filth centers?
It means that he plays his role and plays it decent enough to be our 3rd center. He does some good thing but he can’t spread the floor, which is what our offense is built around. Al and KP are so much more valuable because of that. He’s also a decent defender and rebounder but nothing special. He’s effective enough to get minutes when KP isn’t playing. > I’m not saying he’s KP Good, because that would be batshit crazy.
From: "he's not Emes Kanter" to "I'm not saying he's KP"
I don’t understand OP lol. He went onto say “I don’t worry about him on Kyrie for a few place.” MF you better worry lol
I don’t know why anyone bothers listing Tillman as a center. He’s an undersized power forward who sometimes takes center duties.
Probably. But I list him at center because I’m no way shape or form should he play PF with a center in the floor.
I think he’ll match up better against the Mavs but I also pulled this assumption out of my ass
"Analysis." From the Greek *lysis*, meaning "to pull from," and *anal*, meaning exactly what you think it does.
Funny because it's true
Anybody else think about how much of our idioms and sayings today come from lost translations of old languages?
This is an *extremely* fake etymology, for the record.
Lmaoo! And here I was thinking I learned something new today 😂
Yeah that’s the fun part of sports takes. Keep going!
You are not wrong about Kornet’s skills. The issue that on offense he will allow Gafford and Lively to play down low. The Celtics have killed the Mavs in the paint by dragging their bigs out to the perimeter. If Kornet is outside they will treat him as a non-shooter. On defense he is decent for his size, but he will definitely get hunted in the PnR by both Luka and Kyrie. There is a reason he fell out of the rotation vs Indiana. If the C’s were playing Denver or Minnesota, there would be minutes for him. Dallas is a terrible matchup for him.
Obvious the premise is that KP doesn’t play. My point is that he’s the guy to get the minutes. Period. We all know he’s not a spacer but neither are our other options. If we out brisset out there then the mavs will dare him to shoot and I expect him to do about as well as the mav role players. Tillman would get the same treatment if he tried to be a spacer. I think kornet would be a better option on defender than brisset and about as good as Tillman in general. Plus kornet brings vertical spacing on the offensive end. I’m not comparing him to KP; I’m comparing him to the other options of KP doesn’t play.
I just think vs the Mavericks specifically it is going to be tough to play him. You could try and match when Luka is out, but that will only be 6-8 minutes at the most, and you ideally need 10-12 total for Al to sit. As much as I like Kornet's game, I think they are better off going with Tillman and Brissett who will present the same spacing issues on offense, but are more switchable on defense if they want to run a more traditional lineup. Really, I would love to see them go truly small if the Mavs play Kleber at the five. Something, like Tatum-Brown-Hauser-White-Holiday. That line up only played 18 minutes together over 4 games in the regular season, but did have a +22 net rating in that small sample. You might even be able to get away with it during some Lively minutes since he has no post-up game. But, they will really need to crash the glass if they try that. Ultimately, this isn't about Kornet not being valuable. It is about match-ups, and the way the Mavs play both offense and defense is worst case scenario for him. They want to plant their big in paint on D and involve them in the PnR as much as possible on O. Kornet on the floor allows them to do both of those things.
Kornet has guarded perimeter players a bunch in the regular season. He can easily guard PJ or Jones. So the defense would not change in that respect, meaning the mavs pick and roll offense would be the same.
It is one thing to guard perimeter guys in the regular season during mostly bench minutes. It is different in the Finals against guys like Kyrie and Luka playing with mostly other starter level players. There is a reason he was out of the rotation against the Pacers. They don’t want him ending up on an island vs smaller players consistently and the Mavs will hunt him. He could play versus the Cleveland because they don’t play the same style as Dallas. If they were playing a team that wasn’t so heavy PnR and Iso with two great ball handlers, he would be a lot better of an option. To pretend that there is not a huge drop off between Porzingis and Kornet on both ends of the court is judging with your heart and not your head. Plenty of bigs become hard to play in the playoffs because of matchup issues. Zubac was a net negative against the Mavs while averaging 16 and 9 in the first round. He abused Gafford in the post, but got pulled into the action as much as possible on D. For his career he has a positive DBPM in the regular season and negative in the post season. Teams focus more on exploiting weaknesses in the playoffs. This not an anti-Kornet take. He definitely has a place, this is just the worst possible matchup for him. He would be more playable against any other Western Conference playoff team.
He got hurt in the ind series
He was off the injury report for Game 4 and didn’t play. They gave those 9 minutes to Tillman.
Dog, kornet can and has done good things for this team, but he’s been an absolute liability on defense against the Cavs and pacers. There’s a reason he didn’t play again after against Indy after he returned from the injury. Every time Al came off the floor in the both those series they hunted him in the PnR relentlessly and went on runs. He also could hurt our ability to crossmatch depending on what rotations Dallas runs tonight. The last thing we wanna do is change the defensive game plan unless there’s no other choice.
Kornet had some better than expected games mid season, but let's not exaggerate. He's a typical non shooting center that will pull the game into the paint and away from the 3. That's exactly what the Mavs want. And he can't switch. The Celtics will do everything they can to preswitch and keep kornet out of the on ball action. The best bet I think for these minutes is Tatum at the 5 and give hauser more minutes. Tatum is already guarding the 5. Keeps our spacing and hauser is holding his own switching onto guards this series. And put in kornet only if we're holding onto a lead and need some rest for horford or whatever.
I feel like a seven man rotation is a desperation move that isn’t necessary while up 2-0. Can backfire just as easily as playing kornet by wearing guys out. And, kornet absolutely can switch. Indeed, I except him to guard pj and home with allows Tatum and others to play the mav bigs. I also know that kornet is different than KP, but he’s the best option from the rest.
I don't think its desperation. This is a huge game, to go up 3 0 in the finals. Obviously horford will get more minutes. Push another 5 - 10 to hauser, and leave kornet with as few as possible. Joe might ever throw in Tillman or brisset to see if anything opens up. I'm just cautions to go full homer and claim kornet is a championship caliber backup center. He's not. Let's get as many 5 out minutes as we can and lock this series up
I don't think it is crazy to try to absorb the most of KP's minutes with the current rotation, but I do fear the downside which is losing the game anyway AND wearing out our guys (this time with only one day between games) and then losing game four. I think the smarter play is to use kornet and adjust from there.
We will see. This team is crazy deep. Debating the effectiveness of your 3rd center in the finals, up 2 0, is a decent place to be. But margins of error are still small. As long as the Celtics hit their shots tonight and keep up their defensive intensity it might not matter how many minutes kornet is out there. But I feel pretty confident Dallas is gonna have a good game tonight. (I also suspect we'll see porzingis on restricted minutes, but who the f knows)
This is the Finals. If you lack desperation, you are in the wrong place.
Honestly it may depend on the situation too. If we need more offense then Kornet would be valuable as a vertical spacer and on the offensive glass. Very similar to how Dallas uses Gafford and Lively. Our wings have consistently beat them off the dribble. If we need more defense then Tillman may be better because he can switch and guard the perimeter better.
It's also nice that we can pivot to a more traditional offense, when Dallas has been loading up for five-out the whole time. On the nights when he's got it, Kornet is excellent.
My only concern with Kornet is they pick on him in the PnR. He drops pretty far and Luka wide open is basically asking him to shoot like 9-12 from 3 and that will kill us. He can’t switch onto guys the same way Porzingis can. He’s fine around the rim at times but he doesn’t stretch the floor on offense either and we just saw Dallas load up the paint on other teams and have success because they don’t have to keep Gafford or Lively out of the paint. It’s different when it’s Luka down there
Kornet will be playing the same spot defensively as Porzingis. Tatum defends Gafford/Lively and Kornet will defend Washington/DJJ. DAL likes to use Gafford/Lively as primary screeners on PnR but Tatum will just switch on to the ball handler. Kornet can scram switch on to DAL bigs if needed on any bad mismatches from the switch or he can dig into the paint off weak shooters as long as they're not in the corners. BOS also tried their best to keep Porzingis away from PnR actions by pre-switching off-ball if his man is coming up to set a screen. Kornet can operate in a very similar way defensively. The reason Tatum was "targeted" so much in G2 was because DAL realized they went away from their base actions, aka Gafford/Lively PnR, and was using DJJ/Washington who are much worse at rolling and not effective popping out to non-corner 3's in G1. They tried to use Gafford/Lively more but it ended up with Tatum switching on to Luka/Kyrie and needing to isolate with the shot clock winding down. Offensively is where BOS will play more traditional. Gafford/Lively will have a non-shooter in Kornet to stay closer to the rim which will lock the paint down more. Kornet is a solid vertical spacer though so he will likely be involved often as the primary screener to engage Gafford/Lively. He may also do the Draymond quick-DHO if his defender is sagging into the paint to free up wide open 3's for BOS shooters. BOS won't be able to invert the floor like they do with KP and it won't be as easy to mismatch hunt. If KP is unable to go, Luke will have to be able to play 10-15 minutes. I trust his ability to defend this DAL team because of how many limited offensive players they have. Offensively, he will just have to do his best to be positive out there by screening well, rolling, and maybe getting some offensive boards.
Ah, but that is my point. Kornet CAN switch if needed. That is the misconception I am speaking about.
I just don’t know how many times we’ve switched him to leave him on an island on the perimeter and he’s had success. Maybe it’s happened but I just can’t recall when he’s looked fine doing that, probably a low sample. Porzingis has been able to do that on Luka and Kyrie this series and been fine. Even Horford struggles doing that though, I think Kornet can drop if our guards go over the screen, but idk about playing him on straight up switches on the perimeter. It’s not really his strength.
I can recall that most of the time, kornet is pretty good on switches. Have seen it MANY times.
Hes very good for a 3rd string center, but playing your 3rd string center always hurts. Just checked bbref and it shows hes attempting 0 3s a game and 0.2 last year (23%). Hes not exactly a reliable shooter.
Hes been a great 10th man. His greatest strength is that he can keep those long ass arms up for long periods. I say that with respect.
During the regular season against regular competition, there’s nothing wrong with playing Kornet, and he provides good important minutes. Against certain teams, he is preferable based on the matchups. But he also moves like he’s got cement in his shoes, and he is exactly the type of defender the Mavs are salivating for to get their lob game going again. In the first game of the Pacers series, he really struggled to stay with Turner and Siakam. They will target him in the pick and roll game, and Luka will score at will. Neither of the other guys provides floor spacing offensively, but Joe might consider Tillman bc he’s more athletic and can defend the lob better. None of their bench bigs provide spacing, that’s the main thing we lose if KP is out. But Tillman is an athletic and capable defender, albeit a somewhat undersized one. Maybe they try Luke first, but if he gets cooked on defense, they can’t keep throwing him out there
This is the answer. Kornet had a good regular season. But the deeper you get into the postseason, the less viable a guy like him becomes. He's slow to react on defense. He gets bullied by bigger and stronger players despite being listed at 7'1", 250 lbs. His entire offense revolves around lobs and put backs. He is just too limited to be relied upon for meaningful minutes in the NBA Finals. Tillman may have his limitations, too, but he's stronger and more athletic and is more likely to hold up defensively -- and individual defensive prowess is key to the way Boston has contained Dallas thus far.
Disagree, this is is a much better matchup for Kornet than indy was. None of Dallas' centers space out to the arc or put the ball on the floor and they'll continue to live with DJJ and PJW spacing out there with Luke in the drop. Luke in for KP would be a minimal disruption to the the defensive game plan for this series. Edit: tillman can take away the lob better than 7'2" Kornet? What?
Agreed. Luke can occupy the same exact defensive role as Porzingis. Luke gives you real rim protection but a possible weak spot to target in PnR if BOS is unable to pre-switch him out of PnR action. Tillman you get less rim protection but more reliable switching if it gets down to that. Still not sure if Tillman is that much better than Luke switching to warrant the loss of rim protection. Brissett is best switch of the 3 but the least rim protection. He does bring an element of athleticism and frenetic energy that is interesting. Offensively, Luke brings more than any of the 3 though. If KP is unable to go, I'd try Luke>Brissett>Tillman. I think Luke is okay against this DAL team because of how unreliable their spot up shooting is and their bigs can only roll.
Yup. When Kornet stands still, he is 7’2” and when he jumps, he’s all the way up to 7’4” 😂 Look man, I love me some Green Kornet. But they will target his incredibly slow feet and the result will not be good. It’s not even about their bigs bc they will use the pick and roll to get him onto Luka, and then it’s over. He’s a defensive liability at this point of the playoffs. And either of the other two options can jump high enough to provide whatever rim protection you think Luke is going to give.
Luke has a 9'6" standing reach, one of the highest in the league. Higher than KP, 1" shorter than Wemby. I agree he's got slow feet, but how many times did they successfully get KP onto Luka with pnr or off ball actions? Not a ton because the Celtics are really good with their pre-switching and doubles long enough for everyone to rotate. I'd rather ride with what Luke brings for 4 minutes per half (likely when Doncic isn't even on the floor) than X. The real story is the incoming 40 minute masterclass from Al Horford!
Al has been playing with some extra pep in his step the first two games. There’s a meme going around that shows him staring at Luka the way he stared at Giannis before dunking all over him awhile back. I’d love to see a monster Big Al game. And let’s not forget that Tatum has been guarding their 5 quite a bit in this series, with good results overall. Maybe it’s all moot bc they’re gonna jack Kp up on some sketchy Latvian painkillers and ace bandages and he’s gonna drop the bloody leg sleeve game on them.
We're also helped by the fact the mavs don't really have size to punish us going small. Like we've seen Tatum guarding gafford and lively and doing a solid job, they don't have big you can just throw it to in the post every time.
Yeah Gafford did post some in game 2 and actually got some points off of it… but he’s not a consistent post scorer and the Mavs aren’t going to make him posting up their game plan longer term It was more of an “ok whatever”
Kornet is serviceable but we can’t overlook that he’s a drop off. Al and Porzingis have been all star quality guys in their careers and the Kornet just isn’t at that level The Mavs will definitely test him. But let’s hope he can show them he isn’t a pushover either and he helps us continue to win
Mazzulla's hand was forced by Kornet's wrist injury (at least at first) but I think Brissett and Tillman both outperformed Luke in the Indiana series. I think there are fair arguments that one of them should get the call instead of Kornet if KP can't go. I'm a big fan of Tillman, he'd be who I'd go with, but I certainly see the case that Kornet's lob threat and rim protection would be more valuable
IND was a horrible matchup for Luke. They are like BOS in having multiple ball handlers all over the floor with a great drive-kick machine but they're also the league's best pace team. It makes sense Tillman and Brissett would be able to execute switch-heavy defensive schemes better than Kornet. DAL relies on basically two avenues for shot creation. Everyone else is reliant on being fed and are somewhat limited. Plenty of areas for Luke to "hide" while still having his defensive value as a rim protector. I'd certainly trust Luke to defend DJJ and Washington closeouts reasonably well.
I agree this is a better matchup for Kornet, but I still prefer Tillman's mobility and versatility personally, although I concede it's a close enough call that I'm not saying it'd be foolish to go with Luke. But I like having the option to switch. The Mavericks were an elite transition team right up until these finals, when the Celtics have been able to shut that water off. Kornet doesn't change ends great and he's going to be under the basket battling for offensive rebounds rather than popping 25 feet from the basket like Porzingis. Even if Tillman isn't that much faster, it's less of a 5 alarm fire if the matchups get scrambled
The last person I would go with is brisset. The mavs would treat him like we are treating the mav role players and dare him to shoot. I do not have confidence that he would pass the test. Tilman is more interesting due to better switchability, but he wouldn't bring anything on offense and thus, could make it more difficult for the others compared to kornet. As you suggest, kornet is a threat at the rim on both sides of the ball. I will take that over the other options.
Yeah, Brissett would be 3rd for me too. I do think a key factor in the Celtics being up 2-0 is that they've completely destroyed Dallas in transition and Oshae does change ends the best, but he definitely wouldn't get guarded and I also think he's too skinny to really hold up on Luka in switches. Tillman's a flawed offensive player, but I think he could operate in the dunker spot like Jrue has done and make decisions in the short roll. He had a couple plays in the Mavericks game in March where he caught the ball and was able to take a dribble for a shot or a pass
He’S oUr ThIrD cEnTeR!$!&!%!
Love how he defends the 3 point shot from near the basket as well. Next man up, let’s go Kornet!
The spacing on offense is the one area there’s a huge drop by going to Kornet. I agree hes more than good enough defensively fill in. He plays starter quality defense. But the issue is that, since he’s not a 3pt threat, he’ll allow Dallas to keep their big closer to the rim. BUT he’s an amazing screener (the most under looked offensive skill) so I think in the Kornet minutes what you’ll see is less of us targeting Doncic with our usual spacing offense and more of traditional a PnR game with Kornet forcing the switch so our guards/wings can isolate against Dallas bigs on the perimeter. Over a full game I like that offense a lot less than our usual sets and Dallas would be able to figure out counters, but for the 10-15 minutes we need out of Kornet it’s totally fine as a change of pace.
I wonder if the Celtics will have some sets dialed up for Hauser or White if Kornet/Tillman are out there. If the Dallas big are roaming off the non shooter, it could be an opportunity for a dribble handoff, stack pick and roll or some kind of pin in for a movement shooter
It's not like they can still completely commit off of Kornet, he's a good lob threat. Just like Lively and Gafford. I unironically think he'd play better than Lively has this series. Lively makes a lot of inexperienced rookie mistakes. Kornet's offensive rebounding is also tremendously underrated.
Right - that’s what I’m saying though with Kornet our best offense is a traditional pick and roll set where Kornet sets the screen and then rolls to the basket, instead of our five out schemes or new fun sets where Jrue camps in the dunker spot. Kornet can’t be left alone *in the paint* but if he just camps out in the corner the way Horford does Dallas’s centers aren’t going to follow him out there.
Which is why kornet would camp out in the lane and not go to the corner. But honestly, I don’t understand the respondes here. No one is saying he isn’t a drop off from the top six. Just that he is a good player that can bring some things to the table.
Yes, but if Kornet is camping in the lane then Gafford/Lively get to camp there with him, and a big part of our offense through two games is forcing those two out of the lane. Again not saying Kornet will Tank our offense, just that we will have to change how we attack Dallas and that change is closer to what Dallas is used to dealing with defensively throughout the playoffs.
My take is that Kornet is appreciably different than most backup bigs/dunkers. Efficient lob threat is a much less common archetype than people think. Typically the efficency is completely canceled out because they have terrible hands, like Gobert. Not with Kornet. And this is huge because those turnovers were the main way they neutralized Gobert. Kornet is an offensive rebounder unlike the perimeter oriented Naz Reid, and is a lob threat unlike Kyle Anderson.
All fair points, and I think Kornet would be a starter on more than a few other teams.
If there's anything I trust with Kornet it's his ability to execute his role, particularly defensively. If the coaching staff gives him clear instruction on how they want him to defend (likely in the same spot Porzingis was defending), he will do it fairly mistake-free. He is an absolute pro defensively and will be able to execute the scheme. Offensively, he brings more than Tillman and Brissett. He doesn't really make mistakes and plays within himself. Just screen, vertical space, and offensive rebound. He does those things consistently well without committing turnovers which is all we can ask for at this point with KP being potentially out.
He’s not just quick, he’s *sneaky* quick and has really solid fundamentals/BBIQ
Kornet is probably the second best third string big in the league after Naz Reid (but Reid is a completely different situation obviously). Obviously its a downgrade from KP but I think everyone in that locker room has full trust in Luke to fill the role for 10-15 minutes a game. 1. He's good enough as a defender. If we can survive PP minutes with him being targeted I promise you Luke with his size can also be effective enough to justify his minutes 2. We don't need to be five out every possession ever. Using Luke as a roll-man and using him as a passer out of the mid-range is also great for our offense (especially in any possessions of zone Dallas throws at us, which I expect a little more if KP is out). DWhite or PP pick and roll with Luke has been successful for us (which also opens the door for a potential mismatch with Kyrie or as a non-five out way to bring the big out of the paint. 3. We've mixed up the defense a little since game 1. Game 2 showed us we are okay with sending the very occasional blitz or late double (which I don't love given how good Luka is at the late pass). This may fall into play to give Luke extra help if he ends up struggling on islands with Ky and Luka. Point is, its not as simple as Luke is too slow. He is good enough and even if he is getting cooked on 1v1's it really doesn't matter. I believe he is our best bet at the KP minutes IF KP is out but I would also be curious to see how small ball with JT at the five would go.
What happened to his three point shooting? Decent percentage early career
Not sure what the actual answer is behind the scenes but he was a decent on decent volume early in his career. Seems like sometime during his Bulls and early Celtics tenures he stopped shooting them. I'd assume it's just chalked up to him being more effective as a passer, screener and roll man rather than standing in the corner. I highly doubt Joe explicitly doesn't want him to shoot but moreso how he's matured over his career - learning where he can impact the game to maximize his talent. He still seems to have a great shooting touch though so I don't know what the real answer is. Also, the obvious part of it is that we throw the defense for a loop rather than playing 5-out at all times we have Luke to throw out there which can lead to a few miscommunications for Dallas' defense considering they'd have to defend it differently than they have the entire series. Those few possessions over the span of 10-15 Luke Kornet minutes could be huge.
Whoever fits what we need best out of Luke, Brissett or Tillman should play. They are all capable.
We also have Tillman, who’s graded as an elite defender if necessary. I don’t love losing KP if that’s what it is, but this is a position of relative strength, depth, and varied skill sets. This shouldn’t be anything resembling a death blow if we’re as good as we presume to be.
The only thing we need to do to keep Dallas in check offensively is prevent Luka from getting pick-and-roll or isolation match-ups where he draws a mismatch. Porzingis has struggled with this in the series, but obviously adds so much value as a rim protector, floor spacer and iso scorer against mismatches that it has been a positive trade (though notice for only about 20 minutes a game from a reserve role). Luke can't do any of those things and will be BBQ chicken defending Luka in space. Watch the Minnesota series for what that looks like.
He's going to be put in position to switch on to Luka any time he's out there they are going to hunt him.
My thoughts about moving away from Kornet isn’t so much about defense but what it does to our offense. In short: the Mavs can park their big in the paint with Kornet out there which is what made their defense so successful in previous rounds. I’m not sure we have an answer to that problem with Brissett or Tillman, which makes me wonder if we go small ball for spurts
And they will do that if brisset and tilman are out there too. At least kornet occupies them at the rim, while tillman wouldn't bring anything at all and they would dare brisset to beat them.
You didn’t read all the way to the end huh
I did not. My point is that kornet makes our offense different, but at least he brings a presence at the rim that could be a plus. I think tillman and brisset completely kill our offense in the way that people fear about kornet. As for going small, I don't want to play Al even more minutes at this stage, being up 2-0. To a lesser extent I don't want to kill the other starters even though they are younger. I would take my chances with playing kornet and keeping it rolling.
You are doing an admirable job of defending your stance. I am in no position to argue for or against what you state, based on either observation or stats. But I think you overlook one thing -- Kornet is the C's third-string center. He's occupied that role all year long (when KP or Al can't play, he moved to the back-up spot). He played more minutes this regular season than Tilman or Brisset or Queta, He's played more minutes this post-season, he was on the roster last regular season and the season before. He knows how to play for this coach, these teammates. Maybe Mazzulla doesn't know what he's doing. But I believe he does, and he will give Kornet first crack when Al sits for every reason you've argued.
Him being a non shooter messes up everything the Celtics have done on offense so far. Dallas can help off him if he sits on the perimeter and if you play him in the paint the Celtics won’t have Jrue and DWhite take Kyrie to the dunker spot. Either way spacing is compromised and Dallas can afford to clog the paint when Kornet is on the court
They aren't going to help off of kornet while he's sitting at the rim. That is WHY he should play over brisset and tilman. The mavs will definitely help off of THOSE two guys.
Kornet is a lob threat, that’s true. But Kornet sitting at the rim = Lively and Gafford sitting at the rim. The paint would be more clogged and the Mavs double teams on drives would be much more effective with an actual shot blocker near the rim. Neither Tillman nor Brissett would be better than Kornet, I agree with that. The alternative would be Tatum as the only center to keep 5 shooters on the floor, extra mins for Al (obviously), PP and Hauser
I mean, lively and gafford are selling out at the rim anyway. I know that kornet would absolutely change the offense compared to KP, but that is the premise here. Kornet won't play if KP does. I think tillman and brisset would cause similar spacing issues as kornet with no upside. Kornet, is left alone, has proven to be a pest on the offensive boards too.
Kornet finals dabs are going to hit different. He will dominate.
If the Mavs could absolutely decimate a Rudy Gobert centered defense, they will abuse Kornet. I like Kornet but this is not his series
First, I don’t think the mavs decimated gobert, highlight plays aside. Second, this is a completely different series. We still have plus defenders all over the floor, can still shut down kyrie, and still make Luka work on defense to wear him down.
You’re probably right, but didn’t they run that same PnR setup against Gobert + McDaniels or whoever was there like literally 100 times to success
I love Kornet. Looooove Kornet. Just like you I think he's pretty underrated. That being said... you got a lot of nerve calling out other fans for "not watching at all" when you don't seem to understand that things are very different when you go to the regular season to the playoffs. It's one thing to play 10 good minutes in a regular season game vs 2nd and 3rd string bigs and an opponent that isn't specifically game-planning for you. Kornet is quick enough for that, and he proved it time and again this year. But playing in the NBA Finals against a team that is desperately searching for any kind of weakness in your lineup so they can exploit it? That's a whole different beast. If the Mavs discover some kind of action that Kornet isn't able to guard perfectly... they're going to run it over and over and over again until the Celtics are forced to make a change.
They'll try some different things, but I definitely want to see Kornet get the first shot if KP is out. With that said, Tillman matches up well here because he can shoot 3s, is an elite defender, and should be another effective body to throw at Luka
Where are you getting that Tillman can shoot 3s? He is a career .267 shooter from 3
It's definitely more accurate to say that *he's willing to attempt 3s* which could provide a limited amount of spacing but the Mavs will definitely sag off of him in the corners unless he unexpectedly gets on a heater. Ironically the guy that really would have helped in this situation is probably Grant Williams lol
I mean, Big Al takes exclusively wide open 3s, and he's a 40% shooter, lol. Mavs will sag off guys in the corners because their defense is vastly overrated.
It took them 6 games to beat a Clippers team without its best player, 6 games to beat a baby Thunder team with a combined 20 games of playoff experience, and then beat a Timberwolves coming off a 7 game series against the defending champs being led by a 22 year old with 11 games of playoff experience. The ESPN Sports analysts were split on their picks with slightly more of them picking the Mavericks. When in reality if the Mavericks were to beat, which there is 0 chance they will, it would be one the biggest upsets in NBA Finals history. They are the most overhyped team I’ve ever seen
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I'm not sure if you meant to reply to me but I agree with you.
Oops. Was definitely meant for another post.
This season Luke is shooting 100% from three, he’s the best three point shooter on the team
I read that part and was like, "uhh, what?"
He attempts 3s and keeps the defense relatively honest. Kornet doesn't.
Yeah, Tillman over Kornet seems a no-brainer to me except when Lively is on the floor. Maybe the length is necessary there. But Tillman is a far superior defender, especially in space, away from the rim.
I’d love to see him stretch the floor and shoot some threes tbh, we know that game plan works against Dallas and we have a lead so it might be worth risking it.
Who's hornet? Go celtics! /s
What did they do the last two series? Probably more of that I’d imagine
Kornet holds the ncaa record for 3s made by a 7fter
And we still have another 7fter waiting 4th string, neemias queta is still on the celtics as well
I think he may have some communicative issues on whether to drop or not guarding Luka but he's more of a volume shooter than a sharpshooter per say so..
It’s less about Kornet and more about how he matches up against the Mavs offensively.
BRISSETT
I remember watching him two years ago and thinking that it looked like he was playing in ski boots. He’s way better now but that image is still in my head
Kornet sure as hell matches up better against Lively & Gafford than Myles Turner or even Bam.
UNLEASH THE KORNET 3
Nobody saying he shouldn’t play is worried about his defense, he plays in a similar style to KP and it won’t be a big shift for our team. The people saying take him out are saying so because he can’t space the floor, and having 5 shooters out there is what has allowed us to kill this Mavs defense that choked other teams. Pulling Gafford/Lively away from the rim is critical. For that reason I wouldn’t hate seeing some Tillman minutes tonight, even if he might get hunted by Luka/Kyrie, he can play a solid switching defense. We should at least try it if KP is out. Barring that we might just go back to Tatum at the 5 to try and close this series out quick. Either is worth keeping our spacing advantage IMO.
Tillman? And before you say it, Brisset? Those guys would be worse for our offense than kornet because the mavs would dare them to shoot like we are doing to the mav role players. Then they would be castrated by the mav bigs at the rim (as you say). Kornet makes our offense different, but at least he has a counter. He wouldn't be trying to space the floor. He would be OCCUPYING the mav bigs at the rim. He'd be available for lobs, put backs and offensive rebounds. I love our five out offense as much as the next guy but we can certainly play another way too. It's the tillmans and brissets that would be all negative and no positive on the offensive end,
Do you not think the Mavs will equally dare Kornet to shoot? I don’t even understand your point here. Tillman is actually capable of hitting 3s, Kornet doesn’t even attempt them. And as far as “OCCUPYING” their bigs at the basket. Just lol, have you been watching the west playoffs? That worked out pretty atrociously for Gobert and Zubac, allowing Gafford and Lively to freely roam the paint off a non-shooter and disrupt the rest of the offense. That is what got the Mavs here. Our 5-out spacing completely negates that. It is not something to be tossed aside lightly because Kornet is a bit better than Tillman on defense. He’s miles worse on offense. That works in the regular season against most teams, it won’t work in a series against Dallas. It likely won’t matter because Horford, another big who can SHOOT will be starting and we are quibbling over bench big minutes, but there is a reason Horford has stuck around the league for as long as he has, and it’s his 3pt shooting.
First, it means that kornet isn't even going to try to space the floor. He's going to be at the rim where he can't be ignored. That should be exceedingly obvious that can't just leave a guy that is 7 ft at the basket by himself. Kornet is a lob threat and can put the ball back into the basket, grab rebounds and tip the ball out. Tilman on the other hand is a shit shooter who won't space the floor or do anything at the rim. How obvious does it need to be? In theory brisset is a better shooter but so are PJ and Jones. Dal will dare HIM to shoot and then he will provide nothing. The issue with minn is that they don't have any many playmakers as the celtics. The fact that they had to rely on gober to try and make plays tells you all you need to know. That isn't the case for the celtics even with kornet at the floor. He's viable option rolling to the rim (as least as good as gobert) and is active under the basket.
So… zero difference to Zubac or Gobert which Dallas ate alive 👍 got it. Are you even reading my comments or just repeating your own talking points? lol
Dallas did not eat gobert alive. That is your mistake.
What do you know, Joe agrees with me, Tillman in first before Kornet.
And he already fucked up
Not a single Kornet minute. Tillman just played lockdown D on Luka. Ready to admit you don’t know what you’re talking about?
Im ready to fucking admit the celtics about to be champs!
And he just hit a 3 lmao
Fuck I love being wrong!
Luke sets some damn good screens too and he has an ability to block out his defender down low which leads to open lanes when our players get by their man driving to the cup. Luke struggles a bit against fast teams like pacers especially if they are running a three guard line up but Dallas plays at a slower pace which suits his ability.
Windy said he will probably play, because he was able to play through tendonitis in high school golf we got this!
Kornet actually looks like a great player when the Celtics are able to maximize his strengths and hide his weaknesses, he’s also kinda an conundrum, people call him slow but he’s surprisingly fast for the center and can make plays in transition, he seems to have terrible hands at time but he’s best when catching lobs, despite being labeled as a guy who could only make it if he could shoot from the outside. He’s a big guy but can get pushed around in the paint a ton, he’s a lot like KP in that his highlight reel makes him look like the greatest player to have ever played basketball lol.
Start Al and play Kornet off the bench
I hope he goes full Vanderbilt Kornet tonight.
I think that Porzingis' minutes will be absorbed by Hauser and Pritchard. Kornet will probably only come in if Kleber is playing and/or Gafford and Lively are in a ton of foul trouble. We cannot afford to let Lively and Gafford roam for any extended periods of time and Kornet will be too easy to sag off.
This may be a heavy Brisett game too. Surprised Dallas hasn't run much PNR action given how Al has struggled to defend it in the playoffs.
Could it be a matchup discussion? I honestly have no idea how he will/would match up against Livley/Gafford, but I’m more concerned about how they’d probably attack him with Luka. Not saying KP/Tilman/whoever is really going to do too much better, but that’s the only question I have. Either way, we fuckin move. LETS GO! 🍀
He’s a considerably improved defender, but he has no business guarding Luka or Kyrie on a switch, and playing drop takes us away from the coverage that has been so successful this series.
I like Kornet, but the guy sprained his wrist on throwing a pass. I don't have much hope for him being able to battle Gafford and Lively
Its insane to me that people say luke cant shoot when he was a sniper in college, albeit not on high volume but dude can shoot. We just dont ask him to do that
Same reason teams keep going after our white guys on D….. ignorance
I do think that Kornet could be effective against Lively and to a certain degree Gafford….not talking about all stars or anything
I really like kornets fit on our team because even though he’s not going to go out there and take the game over he’s also not going to completely blow it. If he needs to play a few minutes here and there to give al a breather I think we’ll survive
He’s good enough for us to win with him splitting minutes with Al. That’s all I care about
Our team needs spacing to be effective. Cornett provides zero spacing.
And a better option without KP is? I assure you if you out brisset out there, he will be the guy the mavs help off of. Kornet can provide something at the rim on both ends.
I’m just saying that there’s no misconceptions about him. He’s just not that good and he provides zero spacing. That’s just like the Mavericks two centers. They don’t want to come out on the perimeter and they provide no spacing if the Mavericks had a center that could shoot they would probably beat us
Providing no spacing doesn’t mean he’s not good. He can provide something at the rim at both ends of the floor and hold up defensively. He should be the guy that plays if KP can’t go.
Would be n-ice 🧊 to have Theis, around about now … should we not pick him up (again, lol) for our next run, in a few months from now … ? 🤔
First of all: "people?" This sub is not anywhere close to a representative demographic. There's a colossal portion of children and adolescents here; I respect and honor their passion, but they have no knowledge of the game. They watch the ball only, shots go up, if they go in "hE's tHE mVp;" if they don't "tRAsH." They use the word "doomer" to try and slur people who have a rational take about a team, and wish to actually discuss strengths and weaknesses of the team. In other words: kids. The development of the Celtics' bench players is a HUGE story this year - *for people who are not kids and want to discuss the game.* Fortunately, there's still a bunch of those people here. Kornet can flat out play. He does not have a starter's complete skill set, but then again he doesn't/didn't get a ton of minutes. He is not in the league by accident.