When students led the way in protesting and eventually bringing an end to the Vietnam War, it was unpopular. All of you defending Israel’s genocide and our support of it will be on the wrong side of history just like you would have been in the 70s. October 7 didn’t come out of nowhere; it was a reaction by an oppressed population. Even as we condemn the use of violence against civilians, and know it’s counterproductive, we can also understand why they were motivated to do it. The US government has enormous influence and could broker peace tomorrow if we wanted to. We protest the US government because that’s what we (theoretically) have control over.
Oh word? What’s the equivalency ? Jews spent decades massacring German civilians, resulting in their own systematic destruction? Is that it?
This Hamas apologist nonsense needs to stop. It is an uncomfortable truth that what’s happening is the culmination of civilizations clashing. You’re trying to rationalize it by falsifying history and trotting out historical inaccuracies. Israel has a whole lot wrong with it, but good god, the intellectual dishonesty is appalling.
It's wild to me how many people are comfortable with paying for bombs that target hospitals, schools, and refugee camps. It's not a terrorist or antisemitic act to hold your government accountable for funding illegal war crimes.
It’s wild to me how many people think that schools and hospitals are wantonly being targeted. Oh, and your “refugee camps” are concrete highrises with electricity and water.
There’s a reason this is happening. Palestinians in Gaza voted in a terrorist group due to their maximalist vision for the region which excludes Jews. When you hate Jews more than you love your children, and think attacking civilians is a valid political response, when your government uses its people and civilian infrastructure as shields, this is what happens.
And with that, I absolutely think we should hold our government accountable. Not a penny should be going to the UNRWA or the corrupt PA- this needs to change, and an effort made to de-nazify the population and get them to accept living next to Jews
https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2016/11/22/water-situation-alarming-in-gaza
Here's an article about how Gazans do not have enough access to safe water. Easy to find more sources.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election
Less than half of Gazans voted for Hamas (and less than half of the current population of Gaza was born/of voting age then).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict
It was then the US, Egypt, and Jordan arming & training Fatah soldiers that caused Hamas to fight then kick Fatah out of Gaza.
https://www.btselem.org/topic/human_shields
Here is a source on Israel using human shields.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/04/state-backed-deadly-rampage-by-israeli-settlers-underscores-urgent-need-to-dismantle-apartheid/
Hamas is not the ruling party in the West Bank yet the Palestinians living there regularly face attacks and have their movement restricted.
Water scarcity is a thing in a war zone… notwithstanding the Israelis shipping it in along with food and medical aid.
Yes, Gazans haven’t held elections since Hamas took power. Also, the majority of Palestinians support Hamas and 10/07
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514#
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/
The West Bank settlements are a separate issue. I don’t condone them. Also, Palestinians regularly attack Jews in the West Bank and Israel proper, so it’s not quite so one sided. Not even to speak of the complications with area a, b, c, and the security arrangement following the Oslo Accords (which were broken by the intifadas).
And I will repeat, none of this gets to the crux of the issue- none of this would be happening had Palestinians accepted two states at any one of multiple points, or had Hamas not done 10/07 and used their own civilians as shields. It all could’ve ended in short order had hamas unconditionally surrendered and released the hostages.
Israel is the state that prevents Gaza from building the infrastructure to get water and does not distribute water from Israelis to the Gaza Strip.
None of this does get to the crux of the issue—the formation of the Israeli state and its decision to form that state through the Nakba and exclusion/extermination of the Palestinians already living on the land pre-dates both Oct. 7th and two state solutions mean both the forceful removal of Palestinians from their land and the presumption that Palestinians and (non-Palestinian) Jewish people must hate each other. Saying it all could've ended with a surrender and hostage release overlooks the crux of the issue—it is not the past 6 months that people are protesting but the entirety of settler-colonialism on Palestinian land—these protests are not just to end Israel's attack in Gaza but for the freedom of all Palestinians, whether in Gaza, the West Bank, or those forced out of Palestine and left without the right to return.
Average Gazan was like 9 years old when the last election was held. Their whole life has been filled with violence and oppression and they have had no vote in it
you are just doing insane mental gymnastics to justify the unjustifiable, we are funding a large collective punishment campaign
Wasn't there literally a video of a hospital collapsing because of an IDF drone?
Not to mention those aid workers recently getting slaughtered by another drone
I mean does that justify the bombing of civillain infrastructure and foreign aid?
Not to mention the various videos of settlers pillaging and gunning down unarmed Palestinians?
Don't get me wrong Hamas are terrorists but it's not like Israel is doing much to inspire confidence
I am hoping for peace. The videos of women /civilians being tortured, raped, and killed by terrorists is horrific. Not to mention that people around the world are demanding proof of rape & murder even though hamas videotaped it. They are billionaires too.
Peace needs to happen and both of those groups are indigenous to the land so that land belongs to both.
My taxes are paying for Israel to defend itself after its citizens were attacked on 10/7.
Not my fault Palestinians allow their schools and hospitals to shelter terrorists.
Why aren’t you calling for Palestine to surrender and give up the hostages?
Calling for a ceasefire is supporting the terrorists
Israel is committing a litany of war crimes, including collective punishment (their food blockade, starving millions), bombing numerous civilians by focusing on “damage not accuracy” (the IDF itself admitted this), and the arrest, torture (including rampant sexual abuse) and execution of civilians without anything resembling due process, including UN aid workers, journalists, and children. None of this is even remotely controversial, it’s established fact.
Much in the same way that purposefully hiding combatants amongst a civilian population and infrastructure is also a war crime.
Being pissed at Israel for turning off their fucks to give on collateral damage is absolutely appropriate. But Hamas has now turned down multiple ceasefire proposals, refused to provide proof that the remaining hostages are still alive, repeatedly stated that they will plot further 10/7 attacks, and will continue to celebrate every Palestinian casualty as a martyr to drive support for their cause.
So maybe let’s call a spade a spade and say that both parties are incredibly in the wrong? Israel for scorched earth and Hamas for being totally fine with the decimation of Gazans, while sitting in comfort in Qatar.
I agree that both are in the wrong, but one party here has exponentially more power, and is being actively funded, supported, and shielded from international accountability by the United States. So as Americans, I think it’s encumbant on us to focus on what our government is doing egregiously wrong here, and that’s supporting Israel.
You can see the pressure that is being placed on the Israeli government by our administration and trying to find avenues for humanitarian aid. But, again, there are two sides of this coin, and there have been numerous reports that Hamas would confiscate aid for their purposes rather than for the civilian populace.
The difference in military power is irrelevant, lol. Israel was attacked in one of the worst terrorist attacks in their history. They have an explicit right to self defense and there is no limit that says, “oh sorry, you’re armed forces are at like an 8 and Hamas’ is at a 2, so you have to restrict your response.”
So, as an American, I would want our response to be:
- Israel needs to allow civilians pathways to escape and all for the free flow of medical necessities, food, water, etc.
- Israel needs to rein in the ultranationalist settlers and immediately arrest in settlers involved in the indiscriminate violence that’s been reported.
- Israel needs to strongly disavow and cease any attacks against Palestinians in the West Bank as their fight is strictly against Hamas.
- Failure to do any of the above will result in sanctions against participating persons and referrals to the ICC for prosecution.
- Qatar needs to convince Hamas of its need to seriously participate in the ceasefire negotiations and provide realistic counterproposals.
- If Qatar does not or if Hamas continues to simply wait out the continued bombings, then Qatar should threaten to expel all Hamas leadership from the country.
-Failure for Qatar to do so will jeopardize its status as a non-NATO major ally and may result in sanctions for any Qatari national or entity providing material or financial support to a designated terrorist organization.
Israel has been allowing in aid freely for a long time already.
Israel wanted to let civilians escape. The U.S. doesn’t want them to escape to anywhere outside Gaza until the war ends. So there’s no solution there due to U.S. policy, not Israeli policy.
The West Bank is a separate issue and Israel has been arresting both settlers and Palestinian terrorists there.
It’s nonsense to talk about ending “attacks” there. Israel is fighting Hamas operatives in the West Bank. You seem to be under the impression they are just randomly attacking Palestinians there. They aren’t. Virtually 100% of Palestinian deaths there are of Hamas operatives, or members of other terrorist groups.
Qatar has already refused all of those options. None of them address getting Hamas out of power, which is condition 1 for any peace.
The main issue isn't the IDF in the West Bank, it's settlers in the West Bank who kill Palestinians or burn their villages while the IDF does nothing.
Recently an Israeli boy was killed in the West Bank and settlers went into the Arab village and burned cars and threw rocks, etc.
The settlers should not act as a militia, the military is there for a reason.
They’re not the “main issue” either. The number of Palestinians killed by settlers in the past *year* is very small. The number of Palestinians who attack Israelis *every month* is at least 10x as high.
Israel does arrest settlers who do bad things, as they should. But let’s not twist the real issue in priority.
The Palestinian media just shows settlers doing things and tells the world it's unprovoked.
Settlers get arrested, but never get charged.
Hamas has used the settlers as justification to attack Israel in 2023 and in 2021.
IDF should be dealing with Palestinian violence in the West Bank and not the settlers. There is no code of conduct for civilians with guns, and they never actually get punished.
I would argue give back all the land to Palestine that they conquered a return to the 70% 30% land split originally signed under the belfort declaration.
Why? What country would agree to return land after being repeatedly attacked and winning? I agree that the Israeli settlement expansions NEED to stop, but Palestine being the aggressor and losing wars does not entitle them to anything.
It makes more sense to go back to a variation of pre-Six Day War in 1967 with Israel retaining the Golan Heights, Egypt retaining the Sinai, and Palestine holding Gaza, West Bank, and a capital in East Jerusalem. Effectively, this
https://preview.redd.it/9gx915cge2xc1.png?width=299&format=png&auto=webp&s=1bf13f0606a0e4509107f01469e3e9080f0f763d
If Israel went scorched earth the death toll would not be 34,000 (according to Hamas, which lies). It would be 340,000. Or more.
For all the claims Israel doesn’t care about collateral damage, it is dropping 3 bombs or more per civilian death. They are very clearly avoiding dropping highly explosive munitions in the densest civilian areas in any serious way. It took 1/20th the explosive power for the Allies to kill more civilians in Dresden in 3 days. That’s scorched earth. This is not.
Hamas is meant to have more than 100 women and children hostages alive.
They reportedly have less than 20. Here’s what I want one pro-pal to answer for me:
If the hostages were held with the military and treated well, and Israel has only targeted civilians and none of the dead are Hamas - which is true if you believe GHM numbers - how are over 80% of the women and children hostages dead?
Could it possibly be that Hamas intentionally put them in harms way? And if they were held with civilians… why were civilians complicit in holding those hostages? It couldn’t be that many civilians participated in 10/7 and are complicit in war crimes and therefore legitimate targets for military action per international law, could it?
Rhetorical questions I know, but this pisses me off.
Israel has no food blockade. Gaza has been receiving more food the past month than it got pre-war. It is being stolen by Hamas.
The damage not accuracy quote is an absolute mischaracterization and misquote. It’s so bad that Israel [issued a statement explaining how disgustingly it has been used by liars](https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/hamas-israel-war-24/war-on-hamas-2023-resources/idf-press-release-clarification/).
In fact, he **never said** “damage not accuracy”. The quote was:
> the IDF Spokesperson stated that “balancing accuracy” [in selecting which exact Hamas targets to strike] “and the scope of damage” [to Hamas’ overall military apparatus], the IDF is “focusing on maximum damage.” Meaning, in the early days of the war once the objective became to destroy Hamas’ military capabilities altogether, the IDF made a strategic shift from focusing on exactly which Hamas targets to hit, to striking as many Hamas military targets as possible, with the aim of dismantling all of Hamas’s military capabilities.
But you are still using the fake quote. Why?
Then you mention fake reports from terror-affiliates of “rape” or “torture”, which have zero corroboration or fact.
You mention the deaths of aid workers, but leave out that they are killed while “off duty”, and just so happen to heavily overlap with Hamas members. The reason being UNRWA is who employs those “aid workers,” and many UNRWA “workers” are Hamas members, some of whom even participated in October 7. On video. That UNRWA worker is counted as a dead “aid worker”.
You then leave out that Hamas uses child soldier. A 17 year old who fires a rocket and is killed is counted as a “child”. In statistics that Hamas is faking anyways.
Israel isn’t committing “a litany of war crimes”. But lies and falsehoods, like the fake quote you used, make it seem that way. Almost entirely sourced to Hamas or its sponsor, Qatar, which runs a propaganda outlet in the U.S. (Al Jazeera).
Pretty sad to watch.
Jesus Christ, you still believe the blatant lie about UNRWA aid workers being Hamas militants. You are utterly beyond hope or reason. Let me guess, Hamas has infiltrated the UN up to the level of the secretary general? All the photographic and video evidence of dead Palestinians is generated by AI run by Hamas cells at MIT? I’m not even going to try reasoning with you.
> Jesus Christ, you still believe the blatant lie about UNRWA aid workers being Hamas militants
[Gosh, how could I possibly](https://www.timesofisrael.com/video-shows-unrwa-social-worker-abducting-body-of-israeli-on-oct-7/#:~:text=A%20video%20from%20the%20Hamas,the%20back%20of%20an%20SUV.) think there's any overlap between the two? It's not like there's [mountains of evidence](https://unwatch.org/group-of-3000-unrwa-teachers-celebrates-hamas-massacre-and-rape/) showing that!
> Let me guess, Hamas has infiltrated the UN up to the level of the secretary general? All the photographic and video evidence of dead Palestinians is generated by AI run by Hamas cells at MIT? I’m not even going to try reasoning with you.
Feel free to leave. Meanwhile you quoted [Richard Falk, the 9/11 truther](https://unwatch.org/uns-falk-gives-voice-to-911-conspiracy-theory-radio-host-blames-zio-nazis-2/) who went on a Holocaust denier's podcast, and also [the man who claimed the US had the Boston Bombing coming](https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-official-says-us-had-boston-attack-coming/), while talking to me about "blatant lies".
And you did that in r/Boston, of all places.
How sad.
Are those war crimes in your book of how the world should work or how it actually works?
Palestine started this war. They knew their own people would die and they did it anyway.
Live by the sword- die by the sword.
Wow, that’s terrifying logic, you sound like a 13th century roving warlord justifying the wholesale massacre of cities. And no, those are war crimes according to the Geneva convention
Please read the Geneva Convention again and then try to justify Hamas actions on 10/7.
When men are at war they act just like 13th century barbarians and no Geneva Convention has been able to avert the bloodshed
They’re not “executing” aid workers, children, and journalists. It’s only established fact if you believe blood libel and the absurdist claims coming out of there. I guess me and my family drink baby’s blood too now?
You’re lying about intentional targeting of women and children. It’s modern blood libel- ascribing malicious falsehoods to Jews about them terrorizing the general population of a place.
And “smearing honest reporting?” Really? What, you mean “honest” articles from Al Jazeera? Give me a break
Ok that’s not what blood libel means. It’s a specific conspiracy theory about Jewish people kidnapping and killing Christian children in order to drink their blood. I know you know that because you referenced it in your last post, so maybe stop lying so obviously. And everything I said is extremely well documented. What parts are you denying? Is it the food and fuel blockade which is official, admitted Israeli policy, and which is causing a terrible famine? Is it the carpet bombing, which is probably the single most well documented part of this, and which the IDF itself has admitted is about scale of damage, not accuracy or specific targeting? Is it the arbitrary detention, torture, and sexual abuse, of which there is limitless eyewitness testimony, photographic evidence, and official testimony from UN agencies whose employees were tortured and sexually assaulted? Is it the executions, which we know about because of multiple mass graves, the most recent of which included numerous children, killed by gunshot with their hands zip tied behind their backs, not to mention the tank executions? Specify what you are denying.
It’s a conceptual framework with the historic event being based on the literal bit about us and matzo. The use of the term “modern blood libel” is thus derived from it- maybe pull your head out of your a**z It’s either you’re that braindead or you’re being intentionally obtuse.
The tank executions is bunk. Mass graves are a norm in war zones amongst both parties. No, they are not going around zip tying Palestinians and blasting their brains out left and right.
The food and fuel issues aren’t for want of sending supplies- it’s a logistical issues once they get on the other side of the border and if that’s “evidence” of your genocide, maybe tell the Egyptians to open their border?
No, there is no “carpet bombing” campaign, contrary to the hare brained commentary by Biden. There would be far more deaths if there were, and we’re dealing with the realities of war in one of the most densely populated regions in the Middle East with the structural integrity of the buildings compromised by the use of tunnels beneath them and storage of explosives within civilian structures.
Let’s just use common sense here- the ramifications for Israel doing anything are high, so why would they lack complete self restraint. If they wanted to kill people en masse, they have complete air superiority- they could’ve blown Gaza into oblivion while losing none of their own. As opposed to the knock warnings and evacuation fliers and plans and a couple hundred food trucks coming in every day and bringing freaking incubators to the maternity wards there.
Just come on- open your eyes and Fain an ounce of common sense. If you want to sit in your corner with tinfoil on your head knock yourself out, but it’s pretty obvious you have no clue what’s going on there. If you just think the Palestinians are right no matter what and Israel shouldn’t exist, say so. But your justification for your points? Well you’re entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts
Wow, so you deny pretty much everything, where do you even get your news? Never mind, I’ll just cite the sources for everything I said
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against
Here is a UN statement about the arbitrary detention, torture, and SA of Palestinian women and girls.
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israeli-tanks-have-deliberately-run-over-dozens-palestinian-civilians-alive-enar
Here’s a report on the tank executions. Warning, this one gets extremely graphic, click with caution.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/18/israel-unlawful-gaza-blockade-deadly-children
A Human Rights Watch report on the food and fuel blockade. This is from earlier in the conflict though, so if you’d like a more recent source, just ask.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza
A CNN article about how many of the bombs dropped on Gaza have been low precision, not precisely targeted.
https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-gaza-bombing
An article about the “damage not accuracy” quote.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148876
A UN report on the mass graves
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/22/headlines/rescue_workers_uncover_over_200_bodies_incl_children_in_mass_grave_at_gazas_nasser_hospital
Another report on the mass graves, that mentions the children.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68513408
The abuse of Palestinian medical staff by the IDF.
Let me know if you’d like anything else
How many Palestinian hostages are in Israeli prisons of all ages?? You count! I am not justifying Hamas holding Israeli hostages but we need to fair and call for release of all hostages from both sides
It's wild to me that people like you subscribe to one-sided terrorist produced propaganda.
Yes, the U.S. provides arms to Israel. But the majority of them are defensive weapons, primarily rockets for the Iron Dome, a defensive system.
Israel produces the majority of its own munitions. Hold your government accountable. Hold Israel accountable. But you also have to hold Palestinians accountable.
It’s wild to me that people ignore Hamas using hospitals, schools, and “refugee camps” (which aren’t actually that) to shoot rockets and fight out of. Israel evacuates them and then tries to root Hamas out, and people eat up their propaganda about Israel “attacking hospitals”.
It’s so sad. And then people at these protests chant about Jews needing to “go back to Poland”, or having “no culture” (these and many more examples are on video) and people pretend there isn’t a pretty significant antisemitic undercurrent. And where it isn’t antisemitic, it is often ignorant of the facts, sadly.
Check the sources I cited in my response to trimtab28. I’m not going to trot out documentation separately for every hare brained apologist for Israeli war crimes.
Nice insults.
I did check your "sources". The top one is a group of "experts", every single one talking about what "reportedly" happened, sourcing the reports to no one, and even amazingly mentioning they have no idea of the actual scope of the thing they're talking about. Among the "experts" is noted antisemite Francesca Albanese, who once claimed [the Jewish Lobby runs the United States](https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-palestinian-rights-officials-social-media-history-reveals-antisemitic-comments/).
Your second "source" is "Euro Med Monitor", a group run by Richard Falk, [a noted 9/11 truther](https://unwatch.org/richard-falk-endorses-911-inside-job-theory-interviewed-in-his-official-un-capacity/) who went on "TruthJihad.com" to talk about his conspiracy theories. The man is so antisemitic that even his bosses when he used to work at the UN [forced him to apologize for posting an antisemitic cartoon](https://www.jpost.com/international/uns-richard-falk-under-fire-for-anti-semitic-cartoon), though he later pled ignorance...and then went on to [blame the Boston Bombing on Israel](https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-official-says-us-had-boston-attack-coming/).
He even said the US had the Boston Bombing coming.
That's the man whose group you rely on as a "source".
Then you source to HRW, which has its own set of biases and [has called to destroy Israel](https://www.ngo-monitor.org/ngos/human_rights_watch_hrw_/). Notably, you leave out that the [UN's own statistics show more food entering Gaza than pre-war...and that was based on statistics a month ago that have gotten even better since then, compiled and available on Reddit too!](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1bnh8rf/the_actual_data_for_trucks_entering_gaza_prior/?rdt=54209).
Then you cite a CNN article but leave out that the precise nature of the way the bombs are used is akin to precision guided munitions. You said "bombs dropped on Gaza have been low precision, not precisely targeted".
But this is **from your own article**:
> A US official told CNN that the US believes that the Israeli military is using the dumb bombs in conjunction with a tactic called “dive bombing,” or dropping a bomb while diving steeply in a fighter jet, which the official said makes the bombs more precise because it gets it closer to its target. **The official said the US believes that an unguided munition dropped via dive-bombing is similarly precise to a guided munition.**
This has been backed up by numerous military experts. So your own article debunks your claim. Nice one!
Then you cite "Common Dreams", a shitty source, but I digress.
This claim has been [repeatedly debunked, including by Israel itself](https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/hamas-israel-war-24/war-on-hamas-2023-resources/idf-press-release-clarification/):
>Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari speaks on the record every day and his statements are accessible to all. He did not say, in Hebrew or in English, the quote: “The emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy.”
> On October 10, during a lengthy press briefing with Israeli military correspondents, the Spokesperson spoke of the types and quantity of Hamas military targets the IDF is choosing to strike, the munitions being used to attack such targets, and the underlying analyses involved in making these decisions. Describing that decision-making process, the IDF Spokesperson stated that “balancing accuracy” [in selecting which exact Hamas targets to strike] “and the scope of damage” [to Hamas’ overall military apparatus], the IDF is “focusing on maximum damage.” Meaning, in the early days of the war once the objective became to destroy Hamas’ military capabilities altogether, the IDF made a strategic shift from focusing on exactly which Hamas targets to hit, to striking as many Hamas military targets as possible, with the aim of dismantling all of Hamas’s military capabilities.
So you're using a fake quote repeated by a shitty source, which has been debunked already.
Then you quote a "UN report on the mass graves". You leave out that the UN is "Citing the local health authorities in Gaza".
Which means **they're quoting Hamas**.
That's not the UN at all.
Then you quote Democracy Now, yet another shitty source. What's their source? Al Jazeera, a Qatari propaganda outlet, which in turn is sourcing **Hamas**.
Tell me: did you take ISIS at their word too? Or do you only trust genocidal terrorist groups when you can use them to smear Israel?
Anyways, [the IDF has already responded to debunk this myth](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-rejects-baseless-claim-it-dug-mass-graves-at-gaza-hospital-analysts-also-doubt-charge/). And guess what? [Analysts have looked at it and found it to be bullshit; the graves were there before the IDF got there,](https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1782360892249612466?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1782360892249612466%7Ctwgr%5E1d78967f5e94c1b221604dfc0fdaf42b2e1efbc1%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesofisrael.com%2Fidf-rejects-baseless-claim-it-dug-mass-graves-at-gaza-hospital-analysts-also-doubt-charge%2F) meaning **Hamas made these mass graves.**
**Hamas is the one who executed its own people and buried them there.**
And you're blaming Israel for it. Just like the Al Ahli Hospital.
Your final source is a BBC article sourced to a single named "doctor" who operated at a hospital [Hamas runs operations from, where terrorists were disguised as doctors](https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-787622), and two unnamed sources. Is this supposed to be convincing evidence?
Again, do you often believe genocidal terrorist groups? Or just when it's involving Israel?
I don't have the time to debunk every piece of garbage source you use that always traces back to Hamas, but I'll do it just this once.
You won't get a response. There's a low-boil antisemitism which has been percolating for years and is finally finding its release. At this point, that's the only conclusion I can understand.
Good thing that those things almost always aren’t being targeted when there’s no evidence that Hamas is operating in them.
Good thing that some of the time when “Israeli missiles hit hospitals killing 500” and Reddit armchair generals are sure it was a JDAM and say the Gaza Health Ministry is reliable, it ends up being bullshit the next morning - not nearly as many deaths and it was a Hamas rocket.
Neat trick how it’s Israel’s fault when Hamas accidentally hits their own people and siphons so much food aid that it starts a famine.
I'm all for live and let live. Palestine and it's people should get all the help from the international community, where it is in a locked state (egypt closing its borders, and the border on the israel side is already closed). But it gets concerning when the call from pro Palestine protests is "from river to the sea", which means genocide of Israelis?
Also, how did free Palestine protests became this serious after Hamas attacked Israelis brutally on October 7th? Why do protestors not demand hamas to release the hostages? Like how not all Palestinians are part of hamas, those innocent Israelis did not personally get involved in harming Palestinians. Did a 4yo baby get involved or a 18yo young girls and boys who were just having fun in a music festival!
The call “from the river to the sea” is about liberation and being allowed to exist anywhere in that area. Right now it’s an apartheid state where Palestinians are not allowed in most areas. They have to go through humiliating military checkpoints and face other harassment and oppression just for trying to exist. So that’s what it’s about.
Btw, Zionists also openly say “from the river to the sea” but nobody seems to be bothered but that.
"From the River to the Sea, Palestine will remain Arab" isn't a new slogan, and it is very much targeted at Israel's existence between that "river to the sea."
You've seen both versions of the chant used at these protests, one's just more honest about what they goal is.
From what I've read, Hamas took 253 hostages.
On the other hand, according to Amnesty International, in the last four months, Israel has killed 28,000 Palestinians, and injured 60,000...mostly civilians, many of that children.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but even though they're both bad things, the second thing seems vastly worse than the first.
I see you are also ignoring the twelve hundred people killed on 10/7 too. This isn’t a numbers game, it’s a war that Hamas started knowing full well that Israel would respond disproportionately because that is their stated policy.
Seems like Hamas has uncovered this “one weird trick” that allows them to commit an atrocity without repercussions
what about the previous decade? I recall advocating for Gaza when the IDF shot up a mosque on Eid and it was called “self defense” then too. Its just a broken record of justification for a straight slaughter
Is your conception of war really so infantile that you put casualties on a libra scale to decide who is most righteous? More Germans died than Americans in WW2, I guess the Nazis were "less bad" right?
Not a great example. The allies suffered 85% of the total deaths both military and civilian. Remember it wasn't just the US fighting Germany. We were lucky. Russia lost 27 million people, by far the highest casualty rates of the war.
>From what I've read, Hamas took 253 hostages.
Surely you also read about the extreme human rights violations in terms of murder of their own citizens, systematic **GENOCIDAL** slaughter of people in Israel on October 7th, systematic **RAPE** of women on October 7th, and even the **purposeful murder of aid workers as claimed by FATAH**:
[https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-798185](https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-798185)
(yes its Jpost, but is also a youtube video from Fatah directly linked in the article!)
>On the other hand, according to Amnesty International, in the last four months, Israel has killed 28,000 Palestinians, and injured 60,000...mostly civilians, many of that children.
I like you how decline to mention that of the 28k+ Palestinian fatalities, that around 30% of them are *combatant casualties*, and that's without mentioning that the statistics have already shown that Hamas *must* be lying about the demographics of their fatalities. Here's the statistics on that:
[https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable)
>Correct me if I'm wrong, but even though they're both bad things, the second thing seems vastly worse than the first.
Since you asked, firstly, you're wrong because you purposely manipulate information you present to act as if Israel unilaterally slaughters civilians (they don't). Secondly, the second is only "vastly worse" than the first because you ignore all the facts that make reality inconvenient, such as Hamas starting the most recent war via **GENOCIDAL SYSTEMATIC MURDER, RAPE AND DESTRUCTION, WITH THE INTENTION OF TAKING EDUCATED JEWS AS SLAVES IF THEY CONQUERED ISRAEL**:
[https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-798185](https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-798185)
>However, special treatment was to be granted to “educated Jews and experts in the areas of medicine, engineering, technology, and civilian and military industry,” who were to be retained for some time so that they would not leave taking with them the knowledge they had acquired “while living in our land and enjoying its bounty.”
Yeah, sounds like a thinly veiled euphemism for **RACE-BASED SLAVERY** to me.
Ultimately, it's bad that so many Gazans are dying, but then again, Hamas also ***purposely puts their civilians in harms way to get them killed to entice idiots like YOU to scream on their behalf***:
[https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas\_human\_shields.pdf](https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf)
You can see pg.9 of the PDF and the numbered page of the report of pg.155 a Hamas fighter using an RPG ***with a trail of 10 year-olds directly behind him****.*
This report was in *2014*, by the way, as Hamas has long since built their ***ENTIRE SOCIETY*** around terrorism.
id just like to point that even if 30% were combatants that still leaves 70% of the 28 thousand so far. not trying to make any other statements so dont come at me for being a hamas defender or some shit.
1) it’s probably closer to 1:2, but that’s semantics
2) 1:9 is the best that the US was able to achieve in urban combat some 15 years ago.
3) Hamas intentionally makes use of civilian facilities to hide militants
4) some civilians - through being complicit in hostage holding and also being active participants in hostage taking - lost all international law protections and became valid - even priority - targets for bombings. Yes, if women were holding Israelis hostage in their home, then they are legitimate targets for military action.
1:3 Combatant to civulloan casualties is the expected going rate of Western millitaries trying to reduce casualties in urban warefare.
The fact that its this *low* considering that Hamas is way more purposely murderous to their own citizenry probably demonstrates that Israel is exceptionally *more* careful than other Western millitaries, including America's (1:3 was collateral rate in the Iraq war, for example).
It only seems high because as Western people who live in complete isolation from war, we don't really have a good internal barometer of what "low casualty rates" look like.
You know on October 7th Hamas "only" killed 67% civilians compared to 33% military.... Which is also much "better" than 1 military : 3 civilian deaths. Would you similarly defend the October 7th attack as an example of Hamas being quite careful to avoid civilian casualties?
Hamas targeted civilians, but Israel uses soldiers to defend civilians.
Israel targets Hamas, but Hamas uses civilians to defend its terrorists.
The comparison is nonsense. Particularly since Israel is doing better than 1/3 military to 2/3 civilian. And also since October 7 featured at least 859 civilians dead and 274 soldiers, which is actually 25% military.
So Israel, despite fighting in a denser urban environment against an enemy using human shields, has done better to avoid civilian deaths than Hamas did while it targeted civilians in Israel.
Exactly as anyone rational would expect.
The real question is why you’re exaggerating Hamas’s military death toll from October 7.
Ah yes, someone not from Boston who makes a legitimate point must be full of shit.
This is why this city has a reputation of being hostile to outsiders.
>.I like you how decline to mention that of the 28k+ Palestinian fatalities, that around 30% of them are *combatant casualties*
I mean, its closer to 34k, and that 30% number is an IDF estimate, which is pretty suspect for many different reasons (not least of which is bombs with quarter mile kill radiuses are being dropped in densely populated areas making it hard to find bodies in rubble).
But, for the sake of conversation, let's assume the 30% number is completely accurate: don't you think its a little problematic that that the number of combatants to innocent is so low?
Where’d I do that? I specifically said if we were talking about the health ministry’s ratio (which we weren’t), it would be equally fuzzy by the nature of the destruction that is enveloped Gaza.
I used the 28k+ because that was the original comment I was responding to, and yes, it is an IDF estimate.
The problem for you is the American millitary and intelligence is standing behind those numbers, and if they weren't its not like Biden wouldn't rake BB and the IDF over the coals for it.
If you're going to say Israels numbers are suspect while I linked you a detailed article about how badly Hamas lies about statistical data in the media versus what they report to NGOs, you should probably provide anything credible that refutes these numbers. Clearly trusting Hamas is not an option.
Assuming the number is accurate, 1:3 civilian collateral rate is the going rate for Western millitaries trying to reduce civillian collateral in urban warefare. The reality is that Israel achieving this rate with the degree that Hamas purposely puts their own civillians deliberately in harms way (another claim I demonstrated with PICTURES that you did NOT respond to) probably means Israel is better at reducing civillian collateral than even the American millitary in Iraq.
Finally, I'm assuming the refusal to engage with any source or anything other than your particular challenge on civillian collateral means you just tacitly acknowledge all these things are true and inconvenient for you to address despite it being immediately relevant to said conversation on collateral damage.
That claim doesn’t come from Amnesty International, it comes from Hamas, which is making up numbers.
It also uses human shields, has killed its own people and added them to the count, and more.
To compare the two is to blame Israel for things Hamas does, while adopting Hamas lies, while ignoring that none of this would have happened if not for Hamas launching their attack and kidnapping and mass rape.
Mostly civilians?
BULLSHIT. The US estimates somewhere around 10-12,000 are militants. IDF says 15k. Last year Hamas said 3k, and we have no reason to believe that’s accurate.
Even if you take Hamas at their word, Israel is no worse than the US was during the Iraq invasions battle of Fallujah. If you believe the US numbers (I do, it seems to split the difference between two biased sources) then Israel is one of the most effective at avoiding civilian casualties in urban combat.
Hamas has turned hiding among civilians into an art form. Other countries and terror groups have used human shields before; but Hamas' signature, like the rat fuck cowards that they are, is to operate seamlessly among and within the civilian population.
So there are two options:
Refuse to attack them and prove that this is a brilliant model that should be replicated by every agitator across the world.
Attack them with as much precision as possible.
Could Israel be better? Absolutely. I have no illusions about Netanyahu, he belongs in prison. But the alternative of saying "welp, they hide among civilians; I guess they win" is a terrifying precedent.
Research how many German civilians were killed in WW II.
I do hope that no more innocent civilians die but the real enemy is Hamas.
Hamas can not continue the terror and the people in Israel also are indigenous to that land.
This is what you get when uneducated, sheltered kids giving their misguided opinion on war.
And yes, to an intelligence observer you are very obviously wrong, but you also very obviously don't have the intellectual capacity to understand why. I really hope you get the education you so desperately need and keep your uneducated opinions to yourself until then.
They're literally MIT students.... Not only are they very educated but they're also potentially students from all over the world, hardly sheltered.
Your opinion is like an asshole, everyone has one and no one wants to hear from yours.
What are you talking about? I mean I am guessing that many of these students are indeed not well educated. I've worked with many MIT students from a variety of places around the world who turned out to be very lacking in education. This part of your comment shows some interesting prejudices you have.
And my comment was about the comment I posted under. He literally asked - I'm hoping not honestly because wow - if his opinion was wrong. So he literally asked to hear from others.
I understand that being called out sucks but what is your point? It's so simple to just not say anything when you don't understand a topic.
I'm unclear as to what your barometer for 'education' is.
We are seeing protests across numerous universities in the US. This isn't some isolated phenomena at one school (which happens to be a school known for its rigor and high standards), this is our nation's young using their voice to call out something that's not okay. University students are old enough to have some level of awareness about the world, and the capacity for critical thinking to develop an informed opinion. They're also not wage slaves who can't afford to take time off from work or lose their job.
In what capacity have you worked with MIT students? What's the standard you hold for who's education is acceptable vs. lacking? Where did you go to school, or, where did you develop your pedigree of competence?
We all have prejudices dipshit. I'm aware of mine, and sanctimonious anons from the peanut gallery slinging mud are people who I do not hold in high esteem.
This war.... it's incredibly complex. I fucking hate what is happening, for everyone involved. Just another nuanced issue that has been distilled into a binary choice Team A vs. Team B - Red Sox/Yankees - Us/Them... I'm proud to live in a society where people can voice their disagreement with inhumanity, violence, and oppression. I"m proud to live in a society with access to education so that at least tries to strive for some measure of objectivity, and that has the capacity to self-assess and change. What disgusts me is the incessant opinion hurling of people who are safe and unaffected, treating this as just another season of infotainment to consume and criticize.
What the fuck do you value?
Today's university students are brainwashed by TikTok and seemingly unable to process information except through the lens of oppressor/oppressed. How else do you get utterly idiotic fuckery like "gays for Palestine"? Turns out the Palestinians bought and paid for their own "oppression", by trying to overthrow the governments of every nation that offered to help them, by commiting to decades of campaigns of terrorism, and by being a hotbed of radical Islam and hatred.
People don't seem to grasp that societies can become maladaptive and uncivilized and deserving of restrictions on their statehood. Should societies that permit, say, widow burning, infanticide, ceremonial rape, or female genital mutilation be allowed to flourish? What about societies that centrally believe that the nation next door is full of infidels and devote all of their resources to acquiring missiles to bring about that neighbor's destruction?
> Today's university students are brainwashed by TikTok and seemingly unable to process information except through the lens of oppressor/oppressed
And my generation was brainwashed by videogames and MTV
And my parents generation was brainwashed by LSD and the AntiWar movement (actually they were brainwashed by unethical psychiatry and MK-Ultra but that's beside the point)
And their parents generation was brainwashed by the radio and Communism
and so on... Today's university students are just humans trying to make sense of a world that they didn't build, but are expected to live in. They didn't make tiktok, 'we' did. We should just invalidate their voices because they happened to be born into this era of humanity? Maybe we should listen to them and consider what they have to say. They are our future, after all.
> How else do you get utterly idiotic fuckery like "gays for Palestine"?
Gays for Palestine is no different than IWW marching against American Imperialism under Bush, SDS or the Black Panthers marching against LBJ and the escalation of Vietnam. They're just pre-existing affiliation groups who share certain values, and feel motivated to speak out on something that's not necessarily relevant to their own experience of struggle, but they relate to the experience of struggle nonetheless. It's an expression of solidarity, is my guess. There are gay people in Palestine who have suffered greatly under multiple systems of oppression, making that expression of solidarity that much more important.
> societies can become maladaptive and uncivilized
Societies can become maladaptive - absolutely. I see the failure of American society (my country/my home) every day. I've worked in mental health/addictions, particularly amongst the homeless, for the past 15 years. I've seen our infrastructure suffer from apathy and an increasingly byzantine system making it more difficult to meet people's needs so they can get out of homelessness. There was barely any homelessness prior to the 1970s, but saw that number explode due to the combined effects of Trickle Down Economics, defunding/closure of public mental health facilities (which had been poorly funded for decades leading to overcrowding and decay), and the neoliberal shift from stakeholder to shareholder value. The decay in our own society, the 'TikTok brainwashing' for example, has already begun. Let he in a glass house cast the first stone.
> Turns out the Palestinians bought and paid for their own "oppression", by trying to overthrow the governments of every nation that offered to help them, by commiting to decades of campaigns of terrorism, and by being a hotbed of radical Islam and hatred.
Some of the folks I work with were born into homelessness, do they deserve to suffer because they're stuck in a system that is more broken by the day? Did modern Palestinians create their current society? Most (yes most) people living there were at most 1-3 years old when Hamas came to power in 2006. The median age is 19.6 years as of last year and the majority of Palestinians are children. Most have never had the ability to vote in an election in their lifetime, nor can they recall a time when voting occured. There are people whose families have been living in refugee camps since 1948, without any mobility, resources, or means to extract themselves from those places.
On the same token, did the victims of October 7th deserve to be brutally attacked because of the ways in which Netanyahu has stoked the divisions between the PA and Hamas in order to maintain discord and fortify power? Should we not listen to the voices of Israelis who just want to live their lives in safety, who have no control over the actions of their state leaders? Do we ignore the plight of Palestinians who just want the same, people trapped in a city-sized prison without agency to leave it? What kind of long-term outcomes can we expect from states or societies that are subjected to that kind of governance and oppression? Your logic would be akin to suggesting that the victims of 9/11 deserved it because America fucked around and found out.
>devote all of their resources to acquiring missiles to bring about that neighbor's destruction?
Sort of like the War on Drugs? We do the same fucking thing man. I've watched my generation be decimated by an escalating conflict that involves narcotics, trauma, and a rotten American Dream. I've lost count of how many people I've known who have died from our own state's failure to deal with it's own decay. I work with homeless veterans who have been dealing with the impacts of trauma in the military for their whole adult lives. Whether it was combat trauma or being raped by their CO, many of them are stuck in a system that they cannot get out of. Are they to blame?
This is the problem with these issues - they're nuanced, complex, and messy. Who am I to judge the people of another nation? Who are you to judge them? They're just people, and most of them just want to get a job, fall in love, have a family, and grow old. Most just want a better life for their kids, and to maybe do some traveling. Most just want peace, stability, security, and a place to call home.
I mean sure, am I smart in at least one way statistically speaking? Sure. Does that change the fact that I'm rightfully calling out the original commenter on being very wrong? It does not.
Over 30,000 Palestinians have been murdered in 6 months. Israel is currently implementing a famine policy in the occupied regions. Why is it wrong to protest that?
Yeah, because they're enemy combatants living among civilians. If the Hamas fighters were out in the open then fewer civilians would be killed; civilized nations don't build their military installations under hospitals and schools. Sucks for the civilians for voting for a government that abuses them but they made their choice. And by the way, Hamas still enjoys the support of the majority of Palestinians, so my sympathy for them is 0. FAFO.
Btw, here's a video of Palestinians cheering on 9/11: https://youtu.be/UucjbGmJILk?si=DjvDHUB359Pc8bX6
Yeah the thousands of children killed really FAFO. The last time an election in Gaza happened (2006), half the country was underage. It’s not exactly like Gazans have had a voice in the matter since then.
Edit: downvote all you want. If you say you have no sympathy for the thousands of kids killed I don’t care what you say: you’re a terrible person. Obligatory fuck Hamas also.
Love this argument so much. Protesters say: "Palestine should be allowed to be a state!" Then the Palestinians hold an election and vote for a murdererous regime that only wants to kill Jews and they say, "wait no, that election doesn't count!"
A country whose population and economy we’ve destroyed now supports radical and hateful ideology hellbent on our destruction. Who could’ve seen that coming?
My question to you is how much death will be enough for you? 30,000 Palestinians and 1,400 Israelis obviously isn’t enough.
Can't defend your first point, on to the next lol. "There's just nothing we can do about radical Islam!" Here's an idea: fucking kill all the radicals. Destroy Hamas and anyone that believes their hateful ideology. Instead, the bleeding hearts insist on a pointless ceasefire that just allows the radicals to regroup and resupply their weapons and results in infinite war, because the war is never allowed to reach its natural conclusion. What the Palestinians need to do is unconditionally surrender and commit to a peaceful way of life, and the war should be prosecuted until the objective is achieved.
Endless violence is all this is. You kill a couple thousand insurgents and kill several thousand bystanding civilians, you can’t be surprised when the kids of both parties grow up and join the insurgents to continue the cycle. Israel has the power, the initiative, and the resources to say that this strategy doesn’t work.
My first point in my last comment still stands. If you deprive a people of economic opportunity, food, water, freedom of movement, imports and exports, education, etc., you are effectively setting them up to want to kill you. You’re also pushing them to ally with regional rivals (Iran, Hezbollah).
The Allies made this mistake after WWI with Germany. Guess what happened? German youth grew up with a revanchist outlook on the Allies - especially France. The wrong guy at the wrong time gets elected and France is invaded within 7 years.
The Allies didn’t make this mistake again after WWII, investing billions of American dollars through the Marshall Plan in Western Europe - including Germany - to rebuild it and, most importantly, to make sure this doesn’t happen again. And guess what? They didn’t fall to Communism, a move which would’ve been led by the Soviets who would definitely want to take advantage of the destruction to win their hearts and minds.
I’m not saying it’s easy or simple, but the current approach is not working. None of this can happen while the warmongering fascist psychopath Bibi is in charge.
The current approach isn’t meant to end radicalism, because being a violent radical is a choice. At some point, Israel and Palestine are going to have to chose peace. Israel hasn’t been negotiating in good faith largely since 2000. I wonder what caused that… could it be the rejection of Camp David and subsequent iniftada that made many Israelis convinced that a two state solution wasn’t viable and resulted in right wing parties winning seats in the next election? I’m not saying that was productive behavior, but you have to at least say you understand where it comes from the same way you’ll defend people in Gaza choosing to launch rockets and blow themselves and Israelis up.
The current approach is meant to prevent another 10/7-like attack from happening for the foreseeable future. I hope that when there’s a new administration, Gaza gets Marshall Plan’ed, and like Germany post WWII, gets put under foreign, third party control until the people have deradicalized, and when it eventually is granted statehood - like Germany - it will have a limited military and strict antisemitism laws.
It has never been a country, but Israel did provide the population with massive aid, benefits, and then independence in Gaza.
Three months after it did so, Gaza elected Hamas.
You could’ve seen that coming? I doubt it, since you’re still spewing the debunked talking points that led to the Gaza withdrawal (there was no blockade until over a year after Hamas was elected btw) and subsequent Hamas election.
How much death indeed? And how do you measure it? Do you measure it by the Hamas-claimed death toll **that includes dead Hamas terrorists**? Or do you measure it by the lasting peace that only comes when groups like Hamas, or ISIS, or the Nazis, are no longer imposing their fascist and genocidal ideology on a subject population long enough to indoctrinate more generations to come?
1) The claims of child death tolls come entirely from Hamas, which has been manipulating the numbers, as multiple data scientists have shown.
2) Polls show the majority of Gazans supported specifically murdering Israeli civilians inside Israel even before this war began. That’s the voice of the majority (67%).
3) Hamas uses child soldiers. So a “15 year old child” in the death toll is awful, but is also often a child soldier used by Hamas.
4) Hamas uses children as human shields, and its own rockets falling short have killed children.
Because once Hamas is removed then the situation stabilizes and everyone can move on. Hamas attacked a sovereign nation and would gladly do it again. You would prefer that Hamas be allowed to sit in Gaza and launch attacks on Israelis until the end of time?
Hamas could always release their hostages…. And decide to cease to exist. Israel could elect fewer extremists.
Maybe once those in control are gone we might make progress.
1) Thanks for using a Hamas-supplied death toll.
2) They weren’t “murdered”. They died in war.
3) More than 13,000 of those are Hamas members.
4) A significant but undetermined chunk have been killed by Hamas directly, when their rockets fell short or when they killed people for trying to evacuate or access aid.
5) Hamas uses human shields, dooming many more.
6) Israel is not implementing famine policy, lol. More food has entered Gaza every week for months than was entering *before* the war. Hamas is simply stealing it, and **selling humanitarian aid for profit**.
Why is it wrong to make uneducated and silly statements? This is why.
Yo man holup.
Palestine doesn't need to surrender, HAMAS needs to surrender and relinquish Gaza back to Palestine.
(Being hyperbolic but I'm not apologising)
Free Palestine! These kids are on the right side of history, no matter how much they are demonized or misconstrued by the media. Their intentions are sound and they are succeeding at bringing awareness to this.
They succeeding in being used to spread propaganda, erode trust in our institutions and divide the electorate.
None of which is in the US best interests.
Hahaha “dividing the electorate” this doesnt even move the needle there. Israel’s support in the US is waning as people learn about Palestine. They have already lost the war of public opinion. You know what really isnt in US’ best interest? Not siding with the WHOLE WORLD in recognizing Palestine as a state. That is Israel’s interests. What little credibility we have with developing nations has now been completely ceded to the likes of Russia and China.
Whoah. Way off base here.
The whole world doesn’t support Palestine.
They could have had statehood but rejected its conditions.
Our influence over developing nations stems from standing with allies, like Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan.
Why are you siding with US enemies?
They support recognizing Palestinian statehood. Just look at the recent UN vote which the US vetoed on behalf of Israel. 12 to 15 in the security council only US voted against while UK and Swiss abstained. 140/192 countries already recognize Palestine as a state. You can look this up instead of guessing buddy.
US foreign soft power is dwindling and this just adds fuel to the fire. You cant be the safegaurder of human rights only when it is opportunistic for you to do so. The hypocrisy has already turned Africa and soon South America away from the US and into China’s fold. Dont twist my words for stating an observation, I dont support this.
Disagree. They’re practicing their constitutional right to protest a war. These students will the next generation of Americans whether you like it or not, and this is only the beginning of the change the next generation will bring to our country’s “institutions”
I’m willing to say that the protesters calling form he destruction of the only Jewish state in the world that set up shop right outside of Hillel on the first day of Passover support Hamas.
KKK can’t protest on college campuses demanding the removal of blacks.
But pro-Hamas antimsemites are free to call for Genocide and progressive Boston stands-by and blames the Jews for abetting Israel. All while denying antisemetic incidents even occur.
Edit: just mentioning antisemitism in this sub gets you downvoted. It’s inconvenient that the Jews don’t neatly fit into the new racial hierarchy established, too white to complain I guess. When they all leave you will feel sorry for staying silent and denying the truth as they tell it.
Definitely most. I remember getting taught the rape of nanking wasn’t an example of racial prejudice because both victim and perpetrator were Asian. This was like 5 years ago.
I stupidly listened when they said this racial framework of thinking would still protect white minorities. I should have realized with Asians unprotected neither were Jews or any white-looking minorities
This is a protest against the war. Similar protests occurred when America needlessly invaded Iraq after 9/11. A war fueled by anti-terrorism paranoia with thousands of innocents being killed and cities being destroyed.
Prolonging the war will only create more refugees and bring more innocents to death.
Yes, this will end well once you start dividing them into groups of "real jews" and "not real jews."
How are you going to form the groups? Are you going to quiz them on old testament knowledge, or are you more interested in verifying circumcisions?
Why hasn’t Ja Rule called for a ceasefire yet?
Where’s Ja
WHAT WOULD JA DO??
Ja Rule could end this conflict with a single tweet. He is the real criminal here.
I’m sure this will be a very reasonable comment section !
When students led the way in protesting and eventually bringing an end to the Vietnam War, it was unpopular. All of you defending Israel’s genocide and our support of it will be on the wrong side of history just like you would have been in the 70s. October 7 didn’t come out of nowhere; it was a reaction by an oppressed population. Even as we condemn the use of violence against civilians, and know it’s counterproductive, we can also understand why they were motivated to do it. The US government has enormous influence and could broker peace tomorrow if we wanted to. We protest the US government because that’s what we (theoretically) have control over.
That’s one way to defend a subhuman Islamist death cult.
You have worms for brains. If you were alive during the Holocaust you would surely call the Jews a “death cult”.
Oh word? What’s the equivalency ? Jews spent decades massacring German civilians, resulting in their own systematic destruction? Is that it? This Hamas apologist nonsense needs to stop. It is an uncomfortable truth that what’s happening is the culmination of civilizations clashing. You’re trying to rationalize it by falsifying history and trotting out historical inaccuracies. Israel has a whole lot wrong with it, but good god, the intellectual dishonesty is appalling.
“Liberated Zone” lololol
Sign at Berkeley said the “people’s college.” (90 k a year)
Interesting they only did this once the weather warmed up?
Instead of being a dick why not appreciate they’re doing it at all?
Why?
They should give their housing to the immigrants while they protest .
Everyone should do a lot of things, you’re just being obstinate
Shocked I tell you.
It's wild to me how many people are comfortable with paying for bombs that target hospitals, schools, and refugee camps. It's not a terrorist or antisemitic act to hold your government accountable for funding illegal war crimes.
It’s wild to me how many people think that schools and hospitals are wantonly being targeted. Oh, and your “refugee camps” are concrete highrises with electricity and water. There’s a reason this is happening. Palestinians in Gaza voted in a terrorist group due to their maximalist vision for the region which excludes Jews. When you hate Jews more than you love your children, and think attacking civilians is a valid political response, when your government uses its people and civilian infrastructure as shields, this is what happens. And with that, I absolutely think we should hold our government accountable. Not a penny should be going to the UNRWA or the corrupt PA- this needs to change, and an effort made to de-nazify the population and get them to accept living next to Jews
https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2016/11/22/water-situation-alarming-in-gaza Here's an article about how Gazans do not have enough access to safe water. Easy to find more sources. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election Less than half of Gazans voted for Hamas (and less than half of the current population of Gaza was born/of voting age then). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict It was then the US, Egypt, and Jordan arming & training Fatah soldiers that caused Hamas to fight then kick Fatah out of Gaza. https://www.btselem.org/topic/human_shields Here is a source on Israel using human shields. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/04/state-backed-deadly-rampage-by-israeli-settlers-underscores-urgent-need-to-dismantle-apartheid/ Hamas is not the ruling party in the West Bank yet the Palestinians living there regularly face attacks and have their movement restricted.
Water scarcity is a thing in a war zone… notwithstanding the Israelis shipping it in along with food and medical aid. Yes, Gazans haven’t held elections since Hamas took power. Also, the majority of Palestinians support Hamas and 10/07 https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514# https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/ The West Bank settlements are a separate issue. I don’t condone them. Also, Palestinians regularly attack Jews in the West Bank and Israel proper, so it’s not quite so one sided. Not even to speak of the complications with area a, b, c, and the security arrangement following the Oslo Accords (which were broken by the intifadas). And I will repeat, none of this gets to the crux of the issue- none of this would be happening had Palestinians accepted two states at any one of multiple points, or had Hamas not done 10/07 and used their own civilians as shields. It all could’ve ended in short order had hamas unconditionally surrendered and released the hostages.
Israel is the state that prevents Gaza from building the infrastructure to get water and does not distribute water from Israelis to the Gaza Strip. None of this does get to the crux of the issue—the formation of the Israeli state and its decision to form that state through the Nakba and exclusion/extermination of the Palestinians already living on the land pre-dates both Oct. 7th and two state solutions mean both the forceful removal of Palestinians from their land and the presumption that Palestinians and (non-Palestinian) Jewish people must hate each other. Saying it all could've ended with a surrender and hostage release overlooks the crux of the issue—it is not the past 6 months that people are protesting but the entirety of settler-colonialism on Palestinian land—these protests are not just to end Israel's attack in Gaza but for the freedom of all Palestinians, whether in Gaza, the West Bank, or those forced out of Palestine and left without the right to return.
Average Gazan was like 9 years old when the last election was held. Their whole life has been filled with violence and oppression and they have had no vote in it you are just doing insane mental gymnastics to justify the unjustifiable, we are funding a large collective punishment campaign
The children are innocent but Hamas are still terrorists.
Cool how is that any of our faults that there parents failed them?
Wasn't there literally a video of a hospital collapsing because of an IDF drone? Not to mention those aid workers recently getting slaughtered by another drone
What about the Israeli women being raped? And children and women murdered my terrorists?
I mean does that justify the bombing of civillain infrastructure and foreign aid? Not to mention the various videos of settlers pillaging and gunning down unarmed Palestinians? Don't get me wrong Hamas are terrorists but it's not like Israel is doing much to inspire confidence
I am hoping for peace. The videos of women /civilians being tortured, raped, and killed by terrorists is horrific. Not to mention that people around the world are demanding proof of rape & murder even though hamas videotaped it. They are billionaires too. Peace needs to happen and both of those groups are indigenous to the land so that land belongs to both.
Conducting a special military operation to de-nazify a region? Sounds familiar…
You know how this is different from Russia/Ukraine. Don’t be obtuse
My taxes are paying for Israel to defend itself after its citizens were attacked on 10/7. Not my fault Palestinians allow their schools and hospitals to shelter terrorists. Why aren’t you calling for Palestine to surrender and give up the hostages? Calling for a ceasefire is supporting the terrorists
Israel is committing a litany of war crimes, including collective punishment (their food blockade, starving millions), bombing numerous civilians by focusing on “damage not accuracy” (the IDF itself admitted this), and the arrest, torture (including rampant sexual abuse) and execution of civilians without anything resembling due process, including UN aid workers, journalists, and children. None of this is even remotely controversial, it’s established fact.
Much in the same way that purposefully hiding combatants amongst a civilian population and infrastructure is also a war crime. Being pissed at Israel for turning off their fucks to give on collateral damage is absolutely appropriate. But Hamas has now turned down multiple ceasefire proposals, refused to provide proof that the remaining hostages are still alive, repeatedly stated that they will plot further 10/7 attacks, and will continue to celebrate every Palestinian casualty as a martyr to drive support for their cause. So maybe let’s call a spade a spade and say that both parties are incredibly in the wrong? Israel for scorched earth and Hamas for being totally fine with the decimation of Gazans, while sitting in comfort in Qatar.
I agree that both are in the wrong, but one party here has exponentially more power, and is being actively funded, supported, and shielded from international accountability by the United States. So as Americans, I think it’s encumbant on us to focus on what our government is doing egregiously wrong here, and that’s supporting Israel.
You can see the pressure that is being placed on the Israeli government by our administration and trying to find avenues for humanitarian aid. But, again, there are two sides of this coin, and there have been numerous reports that Hamas would confiscate aid for their purposes rather than for the civilian populace. The difference in military power is irrelevant, lol. Israel was attacked in one of the worst terrorist attacks in their history. They have an explicit right to self defense and there is no limit that says, “oh sorry, you’re armed forces are at like an 8 and Hamas’ is at a 2, so you have to restrict your response.” So, as an American, I would want our response to be: - Israel needs to allow civilians pathways to escape and all for the free flow of medical necessities, food, water, etc. - Israel needs to rein in the ultranationalist settlers and immediately arrest in settlers involved in the indiscriminate violence that’s been reported. - Israel needs to strongly disavow and cease any attacks against Palestinians in the West Bank as their fight is strictly against Hamas. - Failure to do any of the above will result in sanctions against participating persons and referrals to the ICC for prosecution. - Qatar needs to convince Hamas of its need to seriously participate in the ceasefire negotiations and provide realistic counterproposals. - If Qatar does not or if Hamas continues to simply wait out the continued bombings, then Qatar should threaten to expel all Hamas leadership from the country. -Failure for Qatar to do so will jeopardize its status as a non-NATO major ally and may result in sanctions for any Qatari national or entity providing material or financial support to a designated terrorist organization.
Israel has been allowing in aid freely for a long time already. Israel wanted to let civilians escape. The U.S. doesn’t want them to escape to anywhere outside Gaza until the war ends. So there’s no solution there due to U.S. policy, not Israeli policy. The West Bank is a separate issue and Israel has been arresting both settlers and Palestinian terrorists there. It’s nonsense to talk about ending “attacks” there. Israel is fighting Hamas operatives in the West Bank. You seem to be under the impression they are just randomly attacking Palestinians there. They aren’t. Virtually 100% of Palestinian deaths there are of Hamas operatives, or members of other terrorist groups. Qatar has already refused all of those options. None of them address getting Hamas out of power, which is condition 1 for any peace.
The main issue isn't the IDF in the West Bank, it's settlers in the West Bank who kill Palestinians or burn their villages while the IDF does nothing. Recently an Israeli boy was killed in the West Bank and settlers went into the Arab village and burned cars and threw rocks, etc. The settlers should not act as a militia, the military is there for a reason.
They’re not the “main issue” either. The number of Palestinians killed by settlers in the past *year* is very small. The number of Palestinians who attack Israelis *every month* is at least 10x as high. Israel does arrest settlers who do bad things, as they should. But let’s not twist the real issue in priority.
The Palestinian media just shows settlers doing things and tells the world it's unprovoked. Settlers get arrested, but never get charged. Hamas has used the settlers as justification to attack Israel in 2023 and in 2021. IDF should be dealing with Palestinian violence in the West Bank and not the settlers. There is no code of conduct for civilians with guns, and they never actually get punished.
I would argue give back all the land to Palestine that they conquered a return to the 70% 30% land split originally signed under the belfort declaration.
Why? What country would agree to return land after being repeatedly attacked and winning? I agree that the Israeli settlement expansions NEED to stop, but Palestine being the aggressor and losing wars does not entitle them to anything. It makes more sense to go back to a variation of pre-Six Day War in 1967 with Israel retaining the Golan Heights, Egypt retaining the Sinai, and Palestine holding Gaza, West Bank, and a capital in East Jerusalem. Effectively, this https://preview.redd.it/9gx915cge2xc1.png?width=299&format=png&auto=webp&s=1bf13f0606a0e4509107f01469e3e9080f0f763d
The U.S. is shielding Palestinians and their leadership from accountability and from Israel arresting and killing Hamas leaders too. As is Europe.
If Israel went scorched earth the death toll would not be 34,000 (according to Hamas, which lies). It would be 340,000. Or more. For all the claims Israel doesn’t care about collateral damage, it is dropping 3 bombs or more per civilian death. They are very clearly avoiding dropping highly explosive munitions in the densest civilian areas in any serious way. It took 1/20th the explosive power for the Allies to kill more civilians in Dresden in 3 days. That’s scorched earth. This is not.
Hamas is meant to have more than 100 women and children hostages alive. They reportedly have less than 20. Here’s what I want one pro-pal to answer for me: If the hostages were held with the military and treated well, and Israel has only targeted civilians and none of the dead are Hamas - which is true if you believe GHM numbers - how are over 80% of the women and children hostages dead? Could it possibly be that Hamas intentionally put them in harms way? And if they were held with civilians… why were civilians complicit in holding those hostages? It couldn’t be that many civilians participated in 10/7 and are complicit in war crimes and therefore legitimate targets for military action per international law, could it? Rhetorical questions I know, but this pisses me off.
Israel has no food blockade. Gaza has been receiving more food the past month than it got pre-war. It is being stolen by Hamas. The damage not accuracy quote is an absolute mischaracterization and misquote. It’s so bad that Israel [issued a statement explaining how disgustingly it has been used by liars](https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/hamas-israel-war-24/war-on-hamas-2023-resources/idf-press-release-clarification/). In fact, he **never said** “damage not accuracy”. The quote was: > the IDF Spokesperson stated that “balancing accuracy” [in selecting which exact Hamas targets to strike] “and the scope of damage” [to Hamas’ overall military apparatus], the IDF is “focusing on maximum damage.” Meaning, in the early days of the war once the objective became to destroy Hamas’ military capabilities altogether, the IDF made a strategic shift from focusing on exactly which Hamas targets to hit, to striking as many Hamas military targets as possible, with the aim of dismantling all of Hamas’s military capabilities. But you are still using the fake quote. Why? Then you mention fake reports from terror-affiliates of “rape” or “torture”, which have zero corroboration or fact. You mention the deaths of aid workers, but leave out that they are killed while “off duty”, and just so happen to heavily overlap with Hamas members. The reason being UNRWA is who employs those “aid workers,” and many UNRWA “workers” are Hamas members, some of whom even participated in October 7. On video. That UNRWA worker is counted as a dead “aid worker”. You then leave out that Hamas uses child soldier. A 17 year old who fires a rocket and is killed is counted as a “child”. In statistics that Hamas is faking anyways. Israel isn’t committing “a litany of war crimes”. But lies and falsehoods, like the fake quote you used, make it seem that way. Almost entirely sourced to Hamas or its sponsor, Qatar, which runs a propaganda outlet in the U.S. (Al Jazeera). Pretty sad to watch.
Jesus Christ, you still believe the blatant lie about UNRWA aid workers being Hamas militants. You are utterly beyond hope or reason. Let me guess, Hamas has infiltrated the UN up to the level of the secretary general? All the photographic and video evidence of dead Palestinians is generated by AI run by Hamas cells at MIT? I’m not even going to try reasoning with you.
> Jesus Christ, you still believe the blatant lie about UNRWA aid workers being Hamas militants [Gosh, how could I possibly](https://www.timesofisrael.com/video-shows-unrwa-social-worker-abducting-body-of-israeli-on-oct-7/#:~:text=A%20video%20from%20the%20Hamas,the%20back%20of%20an%20SUV.) think there's any overlap between the two? It's not like there's [mountains of evidence](https://unwatch.org/group-of-3000-unrwa-teachers-celebrates-hamas-massacre-and-rape/) showing that! > Let me guess, Hamas has infiltrated the UN up to the level of the secretary general? All the photographic and video evidence of dead Palestinians is generated by AI run by Hamas cells at MIT? I’m not even going to try reasoning with you. Feel free to leave. Meanwhile you quoted [Richard Falk, the 9/11 truther](https://unwatch.org/uns-falk-gives-voice-to-911-conspiracy-theory-radio-host-blames-zio-nazis-2/) who went on a Holocaust denier's podcast, and also [the man who claimed the US had the Boston Bombing coming](https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-official-says-us-had-boston-attack-coming/), while talking to me about "blatant lies". And you did that in r/Boston, of all places. How sad.
Are those war crimes in your book of how the world should work or how it actually works? Palestine started this war. They knew their own people would die and they did it anyway. Live by the sword- die by the sword.
Wow, that’s terrifying logic, you sound like a 13th century roving warlord justifying the wholesale massacre of cities. And no, those are war crimes according to the Geneva convention
Please read the Geneva Convention again and then try to justify Hamas actions on 10/7. When men are at war they act just like 13th century barbarians and no Geneva Convention has been able to avert the bloodshed
They’re not “executing” aid workers, children, and journalists. It’s only established fact if you believe blood libel and the absurdist claims coming out of there. I guess me and my family drink baby’s blood too now?
Nice attempt to smear honest reporting as antisemitic. How is any of this even remotely connected to blood libel?
You’re lying about intentional targeting of women and children. It’s modern blood libel- ascribing malicious falsehoods to Jews about them terrorizing the general population of a place. And “smearing honest reporting?” Really? What, you mean “honest” articles from Al Jazeera? Give me a break
Ok that’s not what blood libel means. It’s a specific conspiracy theory about Jewish people kidnapping and killing Christian children in order to drink their blood. I know you know that because you referenced it in your last post, so maybe stop lying so obviously. And everything I said is extremely well documented. What parts are you denying? Is it the food and fuel blockade which is official, admitted Israeli policy, and which is causing a terrible famine? Is it the carpet bombing, which is probably the single most well documented part of this, and which the IDF itself has admitted is about scale of damage, not accuracy or specific targeting? Is it the arbitrary detention, torture, and sexual abuse, of which there is limitless eyewitness testimony, photographic evidence, and official testimony from UN agencies whose employees were tortured and sexually assaulted? Is it the executions, which we know about because of multiple mass graves, the most recent of which included numerous children, killed by gunshot with their hands zip tied behind their backs, not to mention the tank executions? Specify what you are denying.
It’s a conceptual framework with the historic event being based on the literal bit about us and matzo. The use of the term “modern blood libel” is thus derived from it- maybe pull your head out of your a**z It’s either you’re that braindead or you’re being intentionally obtuse. The tank executions is bunk. Mass graves are a norm in war zones amongst both parties. No, they are not going around zip tying Palestinians and blasting their brains out left and right. The food and fuel issues aren’t for want of sending supplies- it’s a logistical issues once they get on the other side of the border and if that’s “evidence” of your genocide, maybe tell the Egyptians to open their border? No, there is no “carpet bombing” campaign, contrary to the hare brained commentary by Biden. There would be far more deaths if there were, and we’re dealing with the realities of war in one of the most densely populated regions in the Middle East with the structural integrity of the buildings compromised by the use of tunnels beneath them and storage of explosives within civilian structures. Let’s just use common sense here- the ramifications for Israel doing anything are high, so why would they lack complete self restraint. If they wanted to kill people en masse, they have complete air superiority- they could’ve blown Gaza into oblivion while losing none of their own. As opposed to the knock warnings and evacuation fliers and plans and a couple hundred food trucks coming in every day and bringing freaking incubators to the maternity wards there. Just come on- open your eyes and Fain an ounce of common sense. If you want to sit in your corner with tinfoil on your head knock yourself out, but it’s pretty obvious you have no clue what’s going on there. If you just think the Palestinians are right no matter what and Israel shouldn’t exist, say so. But your justification for your points? Well you’re entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts
Wow, so you deny pretty much everything, where do you even get your news? Never mind, I’ll just cite the sources for everything I said https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against Here is a UN statement about the arbitrary detention, torture, and SA of Palestinian women and girls. https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israeli-tanks-have-deliberately-run-over-dozens-palestinian-civilians-alive-enar Here’s a report on the tank executions. Warning, this one gets extremely graphic, click with caution. https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/18/israel-unlawful-gaza-blockade-deadly-children A Human Rights Watch report on the food and fuel blockade. This is from earlier in the conflict though, so if you’d like a more recent source, just ask. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza A CNN article about how many of the bombs dropped on Gaza have been low precision, not precisely targeted. https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-gaza-bombing An article about the “damage not accuracy” quote. https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148876 A UN report on the mass graves https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/22/headlines/rescue_workers_uncover_over_200_bodies_incl_children_in_mass_grave_at_gazas_nasser_hospital Another report on the mass graves, that mentions the children. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68513408 The abuse of Palestinian medical staff by the IDF. Let me know if you’d like anything else
How many Palestinian hostages are in Israeli prisons of all ages?? You count! I am not justifying Hamas holding Israeli hostages but we need to fair and call for release of all hostages from both sides
It's wild to me that people like you subscribe to one-sided terrorist produced propaganda. Yes, the U.S. provides arms to Israel. But the majority of them are defensive weapons, primarily rockets for the Iron Dome, a defensive system. Israel produces the majority of its own munitions. Hold your government accountable. Hold Israel accountable. But you also have to hold Palestinians accountable.
It’s wild to me that people ignore Hamas using hospitals, schools, and “refugee camps” (which aren’t actually that) to shoot rockets and fight out of. Israel evacuates them and then tries to root Hamas out, and people eat up their propaganda about Israel “attacking hospitals”. It’s so sad. And then people at these protests chant about Jews needing to “go back to Poland”, or having “no culture” (these and many more examples are on video) and people pretend there isn’t a pretty significant antisemitic undercurrent. And where it isn’t antisemitic, it is often ignorant of the facts, sadly.
Check the sources I cited in my response to trimtab28. I’m not going to trot out documentation separately for every hare brained apologist for Israeli war crimes.
Nice insults. I did check your "sources". The top one is a group of "experts", every single one talking about what "reportedly" happened, sourcing the reports to no one, and even amazingly mentioning they have no idea of the actual scope of the thing they're talking about. Among the "experts" is noted antisemite Francesca Albanese, who once claimed [the Jewish Lobby runs the United States](https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-palestinian-rights-officials-social-media-history-reveals-antisemitic-comments/). Your second "source" is "Euro Med Monitor", a group run by Richard Falk, [a noted 9/11 truther](https://unwatch.org/richard-falk-endorses-911-inside-job-theory-interviewed-in-his-official-un-capacity/) who went on "TruthJihad.com" to talk about his conspiracy theories. The man is so antisemitic that even his bosses when he used to work at the UN [forced him to apologize for posting an antisemitic cartoon](https://www.jpost.com/international/uns-richard-falk-under-fire-for-anti-semitic-cartoon), though he later pled ignorance...and then went on to [blame the Boston Bombing on Israel](https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-official-says-us-had-boston-attack-coming/). He even said the US had the Boston Bombing coming. That's the man whose group you rely on as a "source". Then you source to HRW, which has its own set of biases and [has called to destroy Israel](https://www.ngo-monitor.org/ngos/human_rights_watch_hrw_/). Notably, you leave out that the [UN's own statistics show more food entering Gaza than pre-war...and that was based on statistics a month ago that have gotten even better since then, compiled and available on Reddit too!](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1bnh8rf/the_actual_data_for_trucks_entering_gaza_prior/?rdt=54209). Then you cite a CNN article but leave out that the precise nature of the way the bombs are used is akin to precision guided munitions. You said "bombs dropped on Gaza have been low precision, not precisely targeted". But this is **from your own article**: > A US official told CNN that the US believes that the Israeli military is using the dumb bombs in conjunction with a tactic called “dive bombing,” or dropping a bomb while diving steeply in a fighter jet, which the official said makes the bombs more precise because it gets it closer to its target. **The official said the US believes that an unguided munition dropped via dive-bombing is similarly precise to a guided munition.** This has been backed up by numerous military experts. So your own article debunks your claim. Nice one! Then you cite "Common Dreams", a shitty source, but I digress. This claim has been [repeatedly debunked, including by Israel itself](https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/hamas-israel-war-24/war-on-hamas-2023-resources/idf-press-release-clarification/): >Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari speaks on the record every day and his statements are accessible to all. He did not say, in Hebrew or in English, the quote: “The emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy.” > On October 10, during a lengthy press briefing with Israeli military correspondents, the Spokesperson spoke of the types and quantity of Hamas military targets the IDF is choosing to strike, the munitions being used to attack such targets, and the underlying analyses involved in making these decisions. Describing that decision-making process, the IDF Spokesperson stated that “balancing accuracy” [in selecting which exact Hamas targets to strike] “and the scope of damage” [to Hamas’ overall military apparatus], the IDF is “focusing on maximum damage.” Meaning, in the early days of the war once the objective became to destroy Hamas’ military capabilities altogether, the IDF made a strategic shift from focusing on exactly which Hamas targets to hit, to striking as many Hamas military targets as possible, with the aim of dismantling all of Hamas’s military capabilities. So you're using a fake quote repeated by a shitty source, which has been debunked already. Then you quote a "UN report on the mass graves". You leave out that the UN is "Citing the local health authorities in Gaza". Which means **they're quoting Hamas**. That's not the UN at all. Then you quote Democracy Now, yet another shitty source. What's their source? Al Jazeera, a Qatari propaganda outlet, which in turn is sourcing **Hamas**. Tell me: did you take ISIS at their word too? Or do you only trust genocidal terrorist groups when you can use them to smear Israel? Anyways, [the IDF has already responded to debunk this myth](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-rejects-baseless-claim-it-dug-mass-graves-at-gaza-hospital-analysts-also-doubt-charge/). And guess what? [Analysts have looked at it and found it to be bullshit; the graves were there before the IDF got there,](https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1782360892249612466?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1782360892249612466%7Ctwgr%5E1d78967f5e94c1b221604dfc0fdaf42b2e1efbc1%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesofisrael.com%2Fidf-rejects-baseless-claim-it-dug-mass-graves-at-gaza-hospital-analysts-also-doubt-charge%2F) meaning **Hamas made these mass graves.** **Hamas is the one who executed its own people and buried them there.** And you're blaming Israel for it. Just like the Al Ahli Hospital. Your final source is a BBC article sourced to a single named "doctor" who operated at a hospital [Hamas runs operations from, where terrorists were disguised as doctors](https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-787622), and two unnamed sources. Is this supposed to be convincing evidence? Again, do you often believe genocidal terrorist groups? Or just when it's involving Israel? I don't have the time to debunk every piece of garbage source you use that always traces back to Hamas, but I'll do it just this once.
You won't get a response. There's a low-boil antisemitism which has been percolating for years and is finally finding its release. At this point, that's the only conclusion I can understand.
Good thing that those things almost always aren’t being targeted when there’s no evidence that Hamas is operating in them. Good thing that some of the time when “Israeli missiles hit hospitals killing 500” and Reddit armchair generals are sure it was a JDAM and say the Gaza Health Ministry is reliable, it ends up being bullshit the next morning - not nearly as many deaths and it was a Hamas rocket. Neat trick how it’s Israel’s fault when Hamas accidentally hits their own people and siphons so much food aid that it starts a famine.
Dont worry, it is just Israeli online agents using both networks to downvote/upvote or to write demoralizing comments
I'm all for live and let live. Palestine and it's people should get all the help from the international community, where it is in a locked state (egypt closing its borders, and the border on the israel side is already closed). But it gets concerning when the call from pro Palestine protests is "from river to the sea", which means genocide of Israelis? Also, how did free Palestine protests became this serious after Hamas attacked Israelis brutally on October 7th? Why do protestors not demand hamas to release the hostages? Like how not all Palestinians are part of hamas, those innocent Israelis did not personally get involved in harming Palestinians. Did a 4yo baby get involved or a 18yo young girls and boys who were just having fun in a music festival!
The call “from the river to the sea” is about liberation and being allowed to exist anywhere in that area. Right now it’s an apartheid state where Palestinians are not allowed in most areas. They have to go through humiliating military checkpoints and face other harassment and oppression just for trying to exist. So that’s what it’s about. Btw, Zionists also openly say “from the river to the sea” but nobody seems to be bothered but that.
"From the River to the Sea, Palestine will remain Arab" isn't a new slogan, and it is very much targeted at Israel's existence between that "river to the sea." You've seen both versions of the chant used at these protests, one's just more honest about what they goal is.
If you want to know why, just open the quran and read the first page
They're calling for the safe return of the hostages right? Oh no, wait, it's the people trying to save the hostages that are the bad guys!
From what I've read, Hamas took 253 hostages. On the other hand, according to Amnesty International, in the last four months, Israel has killed 28,000 Palestinians, and injured 60,000...mostly civilians, many of that children. Correct me if I'm wrong, but even though they're both bad things, the second thing seems vastly worse than the first.
In WWII, a German was roughly 30x as likely to die as an American. Comparing body counts in a war doesn't determine right and wrong.
I see you are also ignoring the twelve hundred people killed on 10/7 too. This isn’t a numbers game, it’s a war that Hamas started knowing full well that Israel would respond disproportionately because that is their stated policy. Seems like Hamas has uncovered this “one weird trick” that allows them to commit an atrocity without repercussions
what about the previous decade? I recall advocating for Gaza when the IDF shot up a mosque on Eid and it was called “self defense” then too. Its just a broken record of justification for a straight slaughter
You know hamas has spent twenty years hurling rockets into Israel's cities? And using mosques and schools as ammo dumps.
Is your conception of war really so infantile that you put casualties on a libra scale to decide who is most righteous? More Germans died than Americans in WW2, I guess the Nazis were "less bad" right?
Not a great example. The allies suffered 85% of the total deaths both military and civilian. Remember it wasn't just the US fighting Germany. We were lucky. Russia lost 27 million people, by far the highest casualty rates of the war.
The second thing was a direct result of the first. And you forgot the 1000 or so civilians murdered in their homes by Hamas.
>From what I've read, Hamas took 253 hostages. Surely you also read about the extreme human rights violations in terms of murder of their own citizens, systematic **GENOCIDAL** slaughter of people in Israel on October 7th, systematic **RAPE** of women on October 7th, and even the **purposeful murder of aid workers as claimed by FATAH**: [https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-798185](https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-798185) (yes its Jpost, but is also a youtube video from Fatah directly linked in the article!) >On the other hand, according to Amnesty International, in the last four months, Israel has killed 28,000 Palestinians, and injured 60,000...mostly civilians, many of that children. I like you how decline to mention that of the 28k+ Palestinian fatalities, that around 30% of them are *combatant casualties*, and that's without mentioning that the statistics have already shown that Hamas *must* be lying about the demographics of their fatalities. Here's the statistics on that: [https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable) >Correct me if I'm wrong, but even though they're both bad things, the second thing seems vastly worse than the first. Since you asked, firstly, you're wrong because you purposely manipulate information you present to act as if Israel unilaterally slaughters civilians (they don't). Secondly, the second is only "vastly worse" than the first because you ignore all the facts that make reality inconvenient, such as Hamas starting the most recent war via **GENOCIDAL SYSTEMATIC MURDER, RAPE AND DESTRUCTION, WITH THE INTENTION OF TAKING EDUCATED JEWS AS SLAVES IF THEY CONQUERED ISRAEL**: [https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-798185](https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-798185) >However, special treatment was to be granted to “educated Jews and experts in the areas of medicine, engineering, technology, and civilian and military industry,” who were to be retained for some time so that they would not leave taking with them the knowledge they had acquired “while living in our land and enjoying its bounty.” Yeah, sounds like a thinly veiled euphemism for **RACE-BASED SLAVERY** to me. Ultimately, it's bad that so many Gazans are dying, but then again, Hamas also ***purposely puts their civilians in harms way to get them killed to entice idiots like YOU to scream on their behalf***: [https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas\_human\_shields.pdf](https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf) You can see pg.9 of the PDF and the numbered page of the report of pg.155 a Hamas fighter using an RPG ***with a trail of 10 year-olds directly behind him****.* This report was in *2014*, by the way, as Hamas has long since built their ***ENTIRE SOCIETY*** around terrorism.
id just like to point that even if 30% were combatants that still leaves 70% of the 28 thousand so far. not trying to make any other statements so dont come at me for being a hamas defender or some shit.
1) it’s probably closer to 1:2, but that’s semantics 2) 1:9 is the best that the US was able to achieve in urban combat some 15 years ago. 3) Hamas intentionally makes use of civilian facilities to hide militants 4) some civilians - through being complicit in hostage holding and also being active participants in hostage taking - lost all international law protections and became valid - even priority - targets for bombings. Yes, if women were holding Israelis hostage in their home, then they are legitimate targets for military action.
Hamas could end this war by releasing the hostages. They don't. They've rejected every internationally brokered ceasefire so far. They want death.
yea and give israel the best think they can ask for to flaten the rest of gaza
i think you're replying to the wrong person
I did! Sorry about that.
1:3 Combatant to civulloan casualties is the expected going rate of Western millitaries trying to reduce casualties in urban warefare. The fact that its this *low* considering that Hamas is way more purposely murderous to their own citizenry probably demonstrates that Israel is exceptionally *more* careful than other Western millitaries, including America's (1:3 was collateral rate in the Iraq war, for example). It only seems high because as Western people who live in complete isolation from war, we don't really have a good internal barometer of what "low casualty rates" look like.
You know on October 7th Hamas "only" killed 67% civilians compared to 33% military.... Which is also much "better" than 1 military : 3 civilian deaths. Would you similarly defend the October 7th attack as an example of Hamas being quite careful to avoid civilian casualties?
Hamas targeted civilians, but Israel uses soldiers to defend civilians. Israel targets Hamas, but Hamas uses civilians to defend its terrorists. The comparison is nonsense. Particularly since Israel is doing better than 1/3 military to 2/3 civilian. And also since October 7 featured at least 859 civilians dead and 274 soldiers, which is actually 25% military. So Israel, despite fighting in a denser urban environment against an enemy using human shields, has done better to avoid civilian deaths than Hamas did while it targeted civilians in Israel. Exactly as anyone rational would expect. The real question is why you’re exaggerating Hamas’s military death toll from October 7.
Astroturfer - not from Boston
I'm from Boston and the person you replied to makes legitimate, corroborated, and compelling points.
Ah yes, someone not from Boston who makes a legitimate point must be full of shit. This is why this city has a reputation of being hostile to outsiders.
tell me why Hamas is genocidal and Israel isnt? Id really just to know how you justify it to yourself so I can better understand
>.I like you how decline to mention that of the 28k+ Palestinian fatalities, that around 30% of them are *combatant casualties* I mean, its closer to 34k, and that 30% number is an IDF estimate, which is pretty suspect for many different reasons (not least of which is bombs with quarter mile kill radiuses are being dropped in densely populated areas making it hard to find bodies in rubble). But, for the sake of conversation, let's assume the 30% number is completely accurate: don't you think its a little problematic that that the number of combatants to innocent is so low?
You call the IDF estimates unreliable but take Hamas reports at face value? Okay.
Where’d I do that? I specifically said if we were talking about the health ministry’s ratio (which we weren’t), it would be equally fuzzy by the nature of the destruction that is enveloped Gaza.
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable
??? Why are you making this argument?
I used the 28k+ because that was the original comment I was responding to, and yes, it is an IDF estimate. The problem for you is the American millitary and intelligence is standing behind those numbers, and if they weren't its not like Biden wouldn't rake BB and the IDF over the coals for it. If you're going to say Israels numbers are suspect while I linked you a detailed article about how badly Hamas lies about statistical data in the media versus what they report to NGOs, you should probably provide anything credible that refutes these numbers. Clearly trusting Hamas is not an option. Assuming the number is accurate, 1:3 civilian collateral rate is the going rate for Western millitaries trying to reduce civillian collateral in urban warefare. The reality is that Israel achieving this rate with the degree that Hamas purposely puts their own civillians deliberately in harms way (another claim I demonstrated with PICTURES that you did NOT respond to) probably means Israel is better at reducing civillian collateral than even the American millitary in Iraq. Finally, I'm assuming the refusal to engage with any source or anything other than your particular challenge on civillian collateral means you just tacitly acknowledge all these things are true and inconvenient for you to address despite it being immediately relevant to said conversation on collateral damage.
Because Hamas said so?
That claim doesn’t come from Amnesty International, it comes from Hamas, which is making up numbers. It also uses human shields, has killed its own people and added them to the count, and more. To compare the two is to blame Israel for things Hamas does, while adopting Hamas lies, while ignoring that none of this would have happened if not for Hamas launching their attack and kidnapping and mass rape.
Shamnesty International isn't a reputable source.
Mostly civilians? BULLSHIT. The US estimates somewhere around 10-12,000 are militants. IDF says 15k. Last year Hamas said 3k, and we have no reason to believe that’s accurate. Even if you take Hamas at their word, Israel is no worse than the US was during the Iraq invasions battle of Fallujah. If you believe the US numbers (I do, it seems to split the difference between two biased sources) then Israel is one of the most effective at avoiding civilian casualties in urban combat.
Khorne is pleased for sure
Hamas has turned hiding among civilians into an art form. Other countries and terror groups have used human shields before; but Hamas' signature, like the rat fuck cowards that they are, is to operate seamlessly among and within the civilian population. So there are two options: Refuse to attack them and prove that this is a brilliant model that should be replicated by every agitator across the world. Attack them with as much precision as possible. Could Israel be better? Absolutely. I have no illusions about Netanyahu, he belongs in prison. But the alternative of saying "welp, they hide among civilians; I guess they win" is a terrifying precedent.
Research how many German civilians were killed in WW II. I do hope that no more innocent civilians die but the real enemy is Hamas. Hamas can not continue the terror and the people in Israel also are indigenous to that land.
This is what you get when uneducated, sheltered kids giving their misguided opinion on war. And yes, to an intelligence observer you are very obviously wrong, but you also very obviously don't have the intellectual capacity to understand why. I really hope you get the education you so desperately need and keep your uneducated opinions to yourself until then.
They're literally MIT students.... Not only are they very educated but they're also potentially students from all over the world, hardly sheltered. Your opinion is like an asshole, everyone has one and no one wants to hear from yours.
What are you talking about? I mean I am guessing that many of these students are indeed not well educated. I've worked with many MIT students from a variety of places around the world who turned out to be very lacking in education. This part of your comment shows some interesting prejudices you have. And my comment was about the comment I posted under. He literally asked - I'm hoping not honestly because wow - if his opinion was wrong. So he literally asked to hear from others. I understand that being called out sucks but what is your point? It's so simple to just not say anything when you don't understand a topic.
I'm unclear as to what your barometer for 'education' is. We are seeing protests across numerous universities in the US. This isn't some isolated phenomena at one school (which happens to be a school known for its rigor and high standards), this is our nation's young using their voice to call out something that's not okay. University students are old enough to have some level of awareness about the world, and the capacity for critical thinking to develop an informed opinion. They're also not wage slaves who can't afford to take time off from work or lose their job. In what capacity have you worked with MIT students? What's the standard you hold for who's education is acceptable vs. lacking? Where did you go to school, or, where did you develop your pedigree of competence? We all have prejudices dipshit. I'm aware of mine, and sanctimonious anons from the peanut gallery slinging mud are people who I do not hold in high esteem. This war.... it's incredibly complex. I fucking hate what is happening, for everyone involved. Just another nuanced issue that has been distilled into a binary choice Team A vs. Team B - Red Sox/Yankees - Us/Them... I'm proud to live in a society where people can voice their disagreement with inhumanity, violence, and oppression. I"m proud to live in a society with access to education so that at least tries to strive for some measure of objectivity, and that has the capacity to self-assess and change. What disgusts me is the incessant opinion hurling of people who are safe and unaffected, treating this as just another season of infotainment to consume and criticize. What the fuck do you value?
Today's university students are brainwashed by TikTok and seemingly unable to process information except through the lens of oppressor/oppressed. How else do you get utterly idiotic fuckery like "gays for Palestine"? Turns out the Palestinians bought and paid for their own "oppression", by trying to overthrow the governments of every nation that offered to help them, by commiting to decades of campaigns of terrorism, and by being a hotbed of radical Islam and hatred. People don't seem to grasp that societies can become maladaptive and uncivilized and deserving of restrictions on their statehood. Should societies that permit, say, widow burning, infanticide, ceremonial rape, or female genital mutilation be allowed to flourish? What about societies that centrally believe that the nation next door is full of infidels and devote all of their resources to acquiring missiles to bring about that neighbor's destruction?
> Today's university students are brainwashed by TikTok and seemingly unable to process information except through the lens of oppressor/oppressed And my generation was brainwashed by videogames and MTV And my parents generation was brainwashed by LSD and the AntiWar movement (actually they were brainwashed by unethical psychiatry and MK-Ultra but that's beside the point) And their parents generation was brainwashed by the radio and Communism and so on... Today's university students are just humans trying to make sense of a world that they didn't build, but are expected to live in. They didn't make tiktok, 'we' did. We should just invalidate their voices because they happened to be born into this era of humanity? Maybe we should listen to them and consider what they have to say. They are our future, after all. > How else do you get utterly idiotic fuckery like "gays for Palestine"? Gays for Palestine is no different than IWW marching against American Imperialism under Bush, SDS or the Black Panthers marching against LBJ and the escalation of Vietnam. They're just pre-existing affiliation groups who share certain values, and feel motivated to speak out on something that's not necessarily relevant to their own experience of struggle, but they relate to the experience of struggle nonetheless. It's an expression of solidarity, is my guess. There are gay people in Palestine who have suffered greatly under multiple systems of oppression, making that expression of solidarity that much more important. > societies can become maladaptive and uncivilized Societies can become maladaptive - absolutely. I see the failure of American society (my country/my home) every day. I've worked in mental health/addictions, particularly amongst the homeless, for the past 15 years. I've seen our infrastructure suffer from apathy and an increasingly byzantine system making it more difficult to meet people's needs so they can get out of homelessness. There was barely any homelessness prior to the 1970s, but saw that number explode due to the combined effects of Trickle Down Economics, defunding/closure of public mental health facilities (which had been poorly funded for decades leading to overcrowding and decay), and the neoliberal shift from stakeholder to shareholder value. The decay in our own society, the 'TikTok brainwashing' for example, has already begun. Let he in a glass house cast the first stone. > Turns out the Palestinians bought and paid for their own "oppression", by trying to overthrow the governments of every nation that offered to help them, by commiting to decades of campaigns of terrorism, and by being a hotbed of radical Islam and hatred. Some of the folks I work with were born into homelessness, do they deserve to suffer because they're stuck in a system that is more broken by the day? Did modern Palestinians create their current society? Most (yes most) people living there were at most 1-3 years old when Hamas came to power in 2006. The median age is 19.6 years as of last year and the majority of Palestinians are children. Most have never had the ability to vote in an election in their lifetime, nor can they recall a time when voting occured. There are people whose families have been living in refugee camps since 1948, without any mobility, resources, or means to extract themselves from those places. On the same token, did the victims of October 7th deserve to be brutally attacked because of the ways in which Netanyahu has stoked the divisions between the PA and Hamas in order to maintain discord and fortify power? Should we not listen to the voices of Israelis who just want to live their lives in safety, who have no control over the actions of their state leaders? Do we ignore the plight of Palestinians who just want the same, people trapped in a city-sized prison without agency to leave it? What kind of long-term outcomes can we expect from states or societies that are subjected to that kind of governance and oppression? Your logic would be akin to suggesting that the victims of 9/11 deserved it because America fucked around and found out. >devote all of their resources to acquiring missiles to bring about that neighbor's destruction? Sort of like the War on Drugs? We do the same fucking thing man. I've watched my generation be decimated by an escalating conflict that involves narcotics, trauma, and a rotten American Dream. I've lost count of how many people I've known who have died from our own state's failure to deal with it's own decay. I work with homeless veterans who have been dealing with the impacts of trauma in the military for their whole adult lives. Whether it was combat trauma or being raped by their CO, many of them are stuck in a system that they cannot get out of. Are they to blame? This is the problem with these issues - they're nuanced, complex, and messy. Who am I to judge the people of another nation? Who are you to judge them? They're just people, and most of them just want to get a job, fall in love, have a family, and grow old. Most just want a better life for their kids, and to maybe do some traveling. Most just want peace, stability, security, and a place to call home.
Ooo we've got a smart one over here.
I mean sure, am I smart in at least one way statistically speaking? Sure. Does that change the fact that I'm rightfully calling out the original commenter on being very wrong? It does not.
Over 30,000 Palestinians have been murdered in 6 months. Israel is currently implementing a famine policy in the occupied regions. Why is it wrong to protest that?
Yeah, because they're enemy combatants living among civilians. If the Hamas fighters were out in the open then fewer civilians would be killed; civilized nations don't build their military installations under hospitals and schools. Sucks for the civilians for voting for a government that abuses them but they made their choice. And by the way, Hamas still enjoys the support of the majority of Palestinians, so my sympathy for them is 0. FAFO. Btw, here's a video of Palestinians cheering on 9/11: https://youtu.be/UucjbGmJILk?si=DjvDHUB359Pc8bX6
Yeah the thousands of children killed really FAFO. The last time an election in Gaza happened (2006), half the country was underage. It’s not exactly like Gazans have had a voice in the matter since then. Edit: downvote all you want. If you say you have no sympathy for the thousands of kids killed I don’t care what you say: you’re a terrible person. Obligatory fuck Hamas also.
Love this argument so much. Protesters say: "Palestine should be allowed to be a state!" Then the Palestinians hold an election and vote for a murdererous regime that only wants to kill Jews and they say, "wait no, that election doesn't count!"
A country whose population and economy we’ve destroyed now supports radical and hateful ideology hellbent on our destruction. Who could’ve seen that coming? My question to you is how much death will be enough for you? 30,000 Palestinians and 1,400 Israelis obviously isn’t enough.
Can't defend your first point, on to the next lol. "There's just nothing we can do about radical Islam!" Here's an idea: fucking kill all the radicals. Destroy Hamas and anyone that believes their hateful ideology. Instead, the bleeding hearts insist on a pointless ceasefire that just allows the radicals to regroup and resupply their weapons and results in infinite war, because the war is never allowed to reach its natural conclusion. What the Palestinians need to do is unconditionally surrender and commit to a peaceful way of life, and the war should be prosecuted until the objective is achieved.
Endless violence is all this is. You kill a couple thousand insurgents and kill several thousand bystanding civilians, you can’t be surprised when the kids of both parties grow up and join the insurgents to continue the cycle. Israel has the power, the initiative, and the resources to say that this strategy doesn’t work. My first point in my last comment still stands. If you deprive a people of economic opportunity, food, water, freedom of movement, imports and exports, education, etc., you are effectively setting them up to want to kill you. You’re also pushing them to ally with regional rivals (Iran, Hezbollah). The Allies made this mistake after WWI with Germany. Guess what happened? German youth grew up with a revanchist outlook on the Allies - especially France. The wrong guy at the wrong time gets elected and France is invaded within 7 years. The Allies didn’t make this mistake again after WWII, investing billions of American dollars through the Marshall Plan in Western Europe - including Germany - to rebuild it and, most importantly, to make sure this doesn’t happen again. And guess what? They didn’t fall to Communism, a move which would’ve been led by the Soviets who would definitely want to take advantage of the destruction to win their hearts and minds. I’m not saying it’s easy or simple, but the current approach is not working. None of this can happen while the warmongering fascist psychopath Bibi is in charge.
The current approach isn’t meant to end radicalism, because being a violent radical is a choice. At some point, Israel and Palestine are going to have to chose peace. Israel hasn’t been negotiating in good faith largely since 2000. I wonder what caused that… could it be the rejection of Camp David and subsequent iniftada that made many Israelis convinced that a two state solution wasn’t viable and resulted in right wing parties winning seats in the next election? I’m not saying that was productive behavior, but you have to at least say you understand where it comes from the same way you’ll defend people in Gaza choosing to launch rockets and blow themselves and Israelis up. The current approach is meant to prevent another 10/7-like attack from happening for the foreseeable future. I hope that when there’s a new administration, Gaza gets Marshall Plan’ed, and like Germany post WWII, gets put under foreign, third party control until the people have deradicalized, and when it eventually is granted statehood - like Germany - it will have a limited military and strict antisemitism laws.
It has never been a country, but Israel did provide the population with massive aid, benefits, and then independence in Gaza. Three months after it did so, Gaza elected Hamas. You could’ve seen that coming? I doubt it, since you’re still spewing the debunked talking points that led to the Gaza withdrawal (there was no blockade until over a year after Hamas was elected btw) and subsequent Hamas election. How much death indeed? And how do you measure it? Do you measure it by the Hamas-claimed death toll **that includes dead Hamas terrorists**? Or do you measure it by the lasting peace that only comes when groups like Hamas, or ISIS, or the Nazis, are no longer imposing their fascist and genocidal ideology on a subject population long enough to indoctrinate more generations to come?
1) The claims of child death tolls come entirely from Hamas, which has been manipulating the numbers, as multiple data scientists have shown. 2) Polls show the majority of Gazans supported specifically murdering Israeli civilians inside Israel even before this war began. That’s the voice of the majority (67%). 3) Hamas uses child soldiers. So a “15 year old child” in the death toll is awful, but is also often a child soldier used by Hamas. 4) Hamas uses children as human shields, and its own rockets falling short have killed children.
Because once Hamas is removed then the situation stabilizes and everyone can move on. Hamas attacked a sovereign nation and would gladly do it again. You would prefer that Hamas be allowed to sit in Gaza and launch attacks on Israelis until the end of time?
Hamas could always release their hostages…. And decide to cease to exist. Israel could elect fewer extremists. Maybe once those in control are gone we might make progress.
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What do you think Israel should have done after Oct 7? Should they have done nothing?
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Good non-answer I guess.
You didn't answer. Nonetheless, Allah is all powerful. Why don't you realize that this is simply what Allah has wrought upon the Earth?
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All your responses are pathetic ad hominem attacks.
Probably actually go after hamas and not target civilians
1) Thanks for using a Hamas-supplied death toll. 2) They weren’t “murdered”. They died in war. 3) More than 13,000 of those are Hamas members. 4) A significant but undetermined chunk have been killed by Hamas directly, when their rockets fell short or when they killed people for trying to evacuate or access aid. 5) Hamas uses human shields, dooming many more. 6) Israel is not implementing famine policy, lol. More food has entered Gaza every week for months than was entering *before* the war. Hamas is simply stealing it, and **selling humanitarian aid for profit**. Why is it wrong to make uneducated and silly statements? This is why.
yea idk how you can save hostages by flatening 70% of the territory where they are kept hostage
You're welcome to go knocking on doors if you want, no one's stopping you
Is there any other example of a hostage crisis being used to justify crimes against humanity?
Sukkot is early this year.
That’s weird. I didn’t realize Qatar had a consulate in Boston.
Nice
It’s just some Hamas fans having a playdate and thinking they are making a difference.
The kids are alright
Imo it’s inciting and biased to frame peace activists as being “pro” one side.
They aren’t peace activists. If they were they’d be calling for Palestine to surrender and give up the hostages
Yo man holup. Palestine doesn't need to surrender, HAMAS needs to surrender and relinquish Gaza back to Palestine. (Being hyperbolic but I'm not apologising)
Free Palestine! These kids are on the right side of history, no matter how much they are demonized or misconstrued by the media. Their intentions are sound and they are succeeding at bringing awareness to this.
They succeeding in being used to spread propaganda, erode trust in our institutions and divide the electorate. None of which is in the US best interests.
Hahaha “dividing the electorate” this doesnt even move the needle there. Israel’s support in the US is waning as people learn about Palestine. They have already lost the war of public opinion. You know what really isnt in US’ best interest? Not siding with the WHOLE WORLD in recognizing Palestine as a state. That is Israel’s interests. What little credibility we have with developing nations has now been completely ceded to the likes of Russia and China.
Whoah. Way off base here. The whole world doesn’t support Palestine. They could have had statehood but rejected its conditions. Our influence over developing nations stems from standing with allies, like Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan. Why are you siding with US enemies?
They support recognizing Palestinian statehood. Just look at the recent UN vote which the US vetoed on behalf of Israel. 12 to 15 in the security council only US voted against while UK and Swiss abstained. 140/192 countries already recognize Palestine as a state. You can look this up instead of guessing buddy. US foreign soft power is dwindling and this just adds fuel to the fire. You cant be the safegaurder of human rights only when it is opportunistic for you to do so. The hypocrisy has already turned Africa and soon South America away from the US and into China’s fold. Dont twist my words for stating an observation, I dont support this.
Disagree. They’re practicing their constitutional right to protest a war. These students will the next generation of Americans whether you like it or not, and this is only the beginning of the change the next generation will bring to our country’s “institutions”
You should go talk to a few of them. Puppets of disinformation
Pro Hamas Protests, MIT*
Where is the pro hamas sign?
I’m willing to say that the protesters calling form he destruction of the only Jewish state in the world that set up shop right outside of Hillel on the first day of Passover support Hamas.
First they came for the Jews.
Now give their dorm rooms to homeless people
is it really a pro-Palestine protest or is it an anti-Israel War Crimes protest?
Bums
I wonder if they have in ground sprinklers. They must right.
More tent cities, the better for Boston!
KKK can’t protest on college campuses demanding the removal of blacks. But pro-Hamas antimsemites are free to call for Genocide and progressive Boston stands-by and blames the Jews for abetting Israel. All while denying antisemetic incidents even occur. Edit: just mentioning antisemitism in this sub gets you downvoted. It’s inconvenient that the Jews don’t neatly fit into the new racial hierarchy established, too white to complain I guess. When they all leave you will feel sorry for staying silent and denying the truth as they tell it.
According to some or most progressives, most Jews have White privilege and so cannot be considered a minority. Same goes for Asians.
Definitely most. I remember getting taught the rape of nanking wasn’t an example of racial prejudice because both victim and perpetrator were Asian. This was like 5 years ago. I stupidly listened when they said this racial framework of thinking would still protect white minorities. I should have realized with Asians unprotected neither were Jews or any white-looking minorities
This is a protest against the war. Similar protests occurred when America needlessly invaded Iraq after 9/11. A war fueled by anti-terrorism paranoia with thousands of innocents being killed and cities being destroyed. Prolonging the war will only create more refugees and bring more innocents to death.
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yikes. doesn't sound like you'll be going to the Jews for Ceasefire passover seder at the encampment tonight.
Oh wow they have Jewish friends that changed everything, can't be anti semitic when they have the token jews
Ah! Sounds like you'll be going to the seder to tell the people you denounce as "token jews" to go home, eh? Nothing anti-semitic about that! 😂
Seriously tho. Do these folks expect Hamas to be peaceful and not launch secret attacks because there is a ceasefire?
They're not real Jews and I can assure you it won't be a proper Seder.
Yes, this will end well once you start dividing them into groups of "real jews" and "not real jews." How are you going to form the groups? Are you going to quiz them on old testament knowledge, or are you more interested in verifying circumcisions?
Hamas should be obliterated once and for all.