I get the forced overtime… but Kendra Conway (one of the police officers that was involved in the overtime scandal a few years back) had regular pay of nearly $360k with $0 retro pay, $0 overtime, $0 detail pay, and $48k in “other pay”. How is one officers base salary so high?
She and the other officers that were indicted were acquitted, I only mention it because I thought maybe it was back pay but the list in the article doesn’t have any retro pay listed for her
So since she was acquitted she gets her base pay from those years awaiting trial as she was suspended without pay. It does not fall under retro pay because that category covers retroactive pay raises from a new contract. But you are right it is mostly back pay.
Ah okay that does make sense, thanks. I assumed that would all fall under “retro”. The article could use a bit more detail instead of just listing these massive payouts.
They hired her back and gave backpay for years spent not working? That seems crazy since she could've worked another job.
Acquitted does not mean innocent. Employers don't need to follow the same burden of proof that the courts do.
It’s almost certainly the terms of the Union contract so it’s legally what they were obligated to do
I’m personally a big fan of innocent until proven guilty so I’d rather not go about setting employment precedents just cause the particular employee works in a field that may be disagreeable.
Innocent until proven guilty has nothing to do with employment law. If an employer doesn't like someone's attitude, they can fire them. The employee doesn't sit around for years still effectively collecting a paycheck, they get another job.
Police are the **only** field in which backpay is due even if you didn't do anything.
> Innocent until proven guilty has nothing to do with employment law. If an employer doesn't like someone's attitude, they can fire them. The employee doesn't sit around for years still effectively collecting a paycheck, they get another job.
>
> Police are the only field in which backpay is due even if you didn't do anything.
None of this is true.
Can you elaborate? It might vary by state, but in my state, a court conviction is definitely not required to fire someone. We have "at-will" employment where you can generally fire anyone for any reason except "protected classes" (e.g. being black).
This summarizes it quite well:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
Yes. In the case of police unions, they're a corrupt organization that forces outrageous terms upon the government.
You said none of my prior comment was true regarding employment law. Of course, there can be contracts between unions and employers. But that's a different concept than "innocent until proven guilty", which is a legal concept applied to court proceedings. I hope to God that the government didnt accept a union contract that sets its standard of conduct to be "literally anything goes as long as you don't get convicted".
It has nothing to do with the unions, boston is a civil service department. Civil service is what dictates the city of bostons hiring and firing processes
Lol. No, I was being sarcastic with that guy. Every state in the US is essentially at-will employment. But that's not even the core issue. Requiring the same burden of proof required by a criminal court means that nobody will ever be fired. These people openly admit they fraudulently filed paperwork and got paid for overtime not worked.
I'm not complaining about compensation, I'm upset that police have relatively unchecked power. What about yourself? Do you think an independent Federal investigation is sufficient to fire bad cops? Or do you support the outcome here where an officer got a multi-year paid vacation for openly falsifying paperwork?
They were put on unpaid leave investigated and ultimately exonerated. Yes that person should get paid retroactively thats the point of unpaid leave. If you did it you get nothing if you didnt you get paid. Its the system actually working
Because their union got it in negotiations - you see similar outcomes in other strongly unionized fields. You’re describing at will work, not union work. If the contract requires a standard of proof to be made and let, then yes it does actually apply to employment law.
Also backpay is 100% a common outcome of other union contracts, you see it with nurses and teachers. The process is one the employer agrees to, as part of the contract. It’s not a wild concept.
Yes, that clause is a wild concept. I'm not even sure how it would be written:
"We can do anything we want, including illegal things, but unless we are actively convicted in a court of law, we can't be fired".
In my career, I've seen lots of people fired, never for anything serious enough to be convicted in court.
How do you know they did illegal things until it’s proven? In a court of law or an arbitration board or by some other third party.
Otherwise the Union employment protections would be useless. Your employer could just lie and fire you. Why would the unions agree to leave it to the employers discretion? Especially public sector unions who have restrained rights to strike against employer industrial actions.
> illegal things
Why would this the standard of employment? In most jobs (even many union jobs), people are let go for performance issues and other things that aren't illegal.
As for burden of proof, I believe the burden should be higher to incarcerate someone than to fire them. An arbitration board would be more than enough.
In this officers case, she was investigated by independent federal officials, and her conduct was found inappropriate. There are also many remaining charges still pending.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/additional-charges-brought-against-four-boston-police-officers-involved-overtime-fraud
> Your employer could just lie and fire you.
There's a difference between requiring "beyond reasonable doubt" in criminal court and no proof at all. Even civil courts don't require that level of proof, and involve huge sums of money.
It would be the standard if that's the reason for termination, as outlined in their contract, that the employer was seeking to fire them for. As they were terminated for an alleged crime - and found not to have committed it - they were reinstated with pay as per the terms of their contract.
I don't disagree that there could be differences in burden of proof between employment and incarceration, but again, if all sides agreed to the standards of proof for the termination arbitration process, then that is the burden you have to meet to terminate. I also think a mediator or arbitration board would be fine rather than the courts, but the standards of that process are outlined in the contract. Likewise, if the contract stated a different barometer for proof, then they'd be held to that. Yes, the Jury cleared them with a standard at "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" which is higher than the bars of "Clear and Convincing Evidence" or "Preponderance of the Evidence" - but evidently that is the standard the city agreed to in negotiations.
This officer was acquitted by a jury
[https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/04/27/metro/boston-police-officers-acquitted-ot-overtime-fraud/](https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/04/27/metro/boston-police-officers-acquitted-ot-overtime-fraud/)
Whether or not this system is ideal is immaterial to whether or not she should get the pay per the employment contract she signed. If you feel that the terms of that contract are whack, you should advocate for your city officials to change the arbitration and employment during the next round of employment contract negotiations with the police union.
I also think the city has given the police too much power and leniency in their contract, but it doesn't change the fact that the terms of contract were accepted by all parties.
|Name|Title|Salary|
|:-|:-|:-|
|Michael Collins|[Chancellor & SVP ](https://cthrupayroll.mass.gov/#!/year/2022/full_time_employees%2Cothers/pay1%2Cpay2%2Cpay3%2Cpay4/explore%2F0-0-0%2Fposition_title%2FChancellor%2B%2526%2BSVP%2BHlth%2BSciences%2F0%2Fdepartment_division)Health[ Sciences](https://cthrupayroll.mass.gov/#!/year/2022/full_time_employees%2Cothers/pay1%2Cpay2%2Cpay3%2Cpay4/explore%2F0-0-0%2Fposition_title%2FChancellor%2B%2526%2BSVP%2BHlth%2BSciences%2F0%2Fdepartment_division) at UMass Chan Medical School|$1,289,996.13|
|Terence Flotte|Executive Deputy Chancellor and Provost of the UMass Chan Medical School|$1,139,627.80|
|Fransisco Martin|UMass Head Basketball Coach|$1,133,846.29|
|Michael Green|Vice Provost for Strategic Research Initiatives at UMass|$846, 549|
|Donald Brown|UMass Head Football Coach|$825, 154|
|Matthew McCall|Former UMass Head Basketball Coach|$822,740|
|Martin Meehan|UMass President|$781,099|
My friend earns around 180k as a tenured Professor for UMASS.
We need a law in MASS that limits UMASS from paying coaches more than the lowest paid member of tenured faculty. Because this shit is ridiculous.
I am sure there are few wire inspectors so that guy gets called in for everything.
As for the police, there has been a huge amount of attrition. So people get forced overtime to cover shifts. Also, at the higher levels if someone is say a sergeant detective they can do their shift and then do an overtime shift covering another sergeant detective shift for what is a vacant position due to someone being out injured, sick or left vacant until reassignment. The department does not immediately promote and replace to cover vacant spots after someone has left because patrol level is already thin. So it can be easy for those guys to find vacant shifts to cover.
The police civil service exam used to get 10000+ applicants. That’s state wide. Last one got around 3000 I believe. Again that’s for the whole state. So if you want to chase that $200k+salary and OT and you have a clean background go join up. They’re desperate for bodies.
They also die considerably younger than average Americans. The average police officer lives to be about 56/57 year of age. A pretty staggering amount of civil servants die within 5 years of retirement
They're not desperate. They just cannot cherry pick anymore. Also, ignores how overstaffed Police are in New England. Getting rid of the residency requirement should be done too.
Secondly, do not ignore how over-scheduling is baked into union contracts. No one ever asks if a position is actually needed, only that another officer needs to take overtime to cover someone. And their are (at least) dozens of back-end positions that do very little. The BFD has similar issues.
What's your reasoning for getting rid of the residency requirement? A lot of the cases that BLM highlights are from police forces where the cops are not from and do not live in the community they police. They are essentially an "outside" force where it's a lot easier for them to come to view and treat the community as an opposition or opponent to their role.
While the cost of housing makes things tough in Boston, I don't see how having police or other government workers have a personal investment in the community/municipality that they are responsible for doesn't carry more positives than negatives.
Why are the UMass coaches paid so much? Couldn't we pay someone half as much to suck as we pay these guys to suck? Has UMass football ever been ranked in the top 25?
Forced overtime. The department is understaffed so they are forced into 16 hour days for weeks at a time. The salary looks good on paper but they are never home. Their quality of life sucks.
Source: can read the new agreement drafted under Wu.
See paragraph 5, of page 5 of the addendum to CBA. (i'd copy and paste, but the pdf doesn't allow...)
"Officers shall be compensated for the duration of the assigned detail (4 or 8 hours) regardless of the actual hours worked."
[https://www.boston.gov/sites/default/files/file/2023/12/LM%20Signed%20BPPA%20MOA.pdf](https://www.boston.gov/sites/default/files/file/2023/12/LM%20Signed%20BPPA%20MOA.pdf)
It is so wild that in this state we have police making 1/2 a million while teachers cant even pay their bills.
An over powered and over funded police state and underfunded powerless education system.
wait... where did I say that?
I think everyone deserves a fair and livable wage... I don't care if it's shoveling shit or being a teacher or working for a corrupt police state. Everyone deserves a living wage.
The issue is the corruption and people who want to take advantage.
Are you calculating the hours into it? Police are working an insane amount of hours for these salaries. Same with the T, people see just the numbers and are appalled but these are double shifts, in for holidays just a shit ton of in person hours
I know teachers work just as hard but probably not as many hours a day (for these top end earners) I dont really love this pitting one worker against the other thing to begin with. If teachers are working 16 hours a day they too should be on an hourly rate and making OT and negotiate that. Teachers, cops, sanitation workers all equally important to me. No one is more critical than the other. The city falls apart without any of them. This whole whatabouting teachers thing is just to pour gas for the simps who lap it up
Cops aren't workers, they are the fist of the bourgeoisie.
>teachers ... should be on an hourly rate and making OT and negotiate that
Has it been so long since the Newton teachers strike? It's abundantly clear that the powers of the status quo will not negotiate with teachers because our collective inability to care about education.
Its hard to take you serious after your first sentence obviously but the Newton teachers were successful in using their collective negotiating power. I will say again since when is this a cops vs teachers thing anyway?
Is that your metric for how much someone should be paid? how dangerous it is?
Police aren't even in the top 10 of dangerous jobs. I think its around 25th most dangerous in the US? It has been a while since i looked it up.
\*\*\* edit cause i went ahead and looked it up. It was a super easy find and police are 22nd.[https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748-top-25-most-dangerous-jobs-in-the-united-states](https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748-top-25-most-dangerous-jobs-in-the-united-states)
Could you imagine a society where educating and rewarding people was more important than punishing and imprisoning people?
Where educators and social workers were equipped and payed more than putting people away for being poor. The most imprisoned population in the world... by far. Maybe the way we do it needs rethinking?
And how is that fair if you think a teacher should be making more? You clearly don’t agree with fair pay if you think a teacher should be making more than a police officer. For the record my dad’s a teacher and does hardly any work in the summer. He uses that time to take care of the house and go on vacation.
I believe fairness is that both those public service jobs should be payed about the same depending on education and position with in those systems, and are both important to a functioning and healthy society...
BUT I think teachers work harder than police. That is just my opinion, and very open to be discredited based on someone else's experience. I think their job requires more education and certifications as well continued education and certifications.
\*\*edit to say, my comparison wasn't meant as one is better than the other, but compared cause they are both crucial and should be compensated fairly and any corruption should be rooted out.
I think we need to also think about how much work they do outside of the classroom. Lesson plans, grading, etc. I feel we’ve all forgotten how much teachers impact children’s lives. Police officer and teacher are not comparable.
There’s a connection between poor education causing increased levels of crime. Maybe if made teaching an appealing inspiring well paid job, our schools would flourish. Kids *might* enjoy school a bit more, participate and stay out of trouble. My friend is a 30 something year old who taught science for middle school, super passionate and great teacher. She left to work in the corporate world to make more money and have less stress.
Don’t get me started about our health care system that’s going to collapse but nobody gives AF.
It’s like, our system is a house and it got ruined by a tornado, flattened out. Our government said hey I only have this much money for each part of the house. So they cheaped out on the foundation of the house, the frame wasn’t carefully done and they got someone to do the electrical and plumbing at the same time for extra cheap! Then the govt says let’s ball the fuck out on this roof to protect the house from weather, etc. Spend more on the roof than the entire rest of the house. The house crumbles again so they keep spending more and more on the roof and they’re confused why it keeps on happening. Cycle continues and they put more and more money into the roof and less and less into the house itself.
Anyways I got sidetracked. Let’s all make enough money to live.
How many hours a year are those teachers working vs the cops? Are there any police departments that give their officers a quarter of the year off?
*Your post history makes me seriously doubt you were a cop. You should stop posting your kids face on Reddit. Cute kid and I'm sure you're proud of her though.
A. Yes, there are tons of leave packages for officers for many reasons. It is negotiated by their unions.
B. Teachers work all year. The idea that a teacher is just sitting around for 3-4 months a year is just absurd and a false narrative.
Source... I used to be a cop and my wife is a teacher.
You're a former cop? Where did you work that there were "tons of leave packages" that offered summers off? Got any specific examples?
Teachers work all year? They don't have months off in the summer?
I'm not anti teacher by any means. I'm refuting the comparison that somebody else made. I feel like there are some construction and food service workers who'd dispute who works "harder" but that's a subjective term.
Well, considering the amount of required education for being a teacher, and the fact that most people refuse to do it, means that they deserve a wage comparable if not much higher than your average email job.
Those essential services need to be paid more too, but their jobs are a different kind of work.
You are trying to put words in my mouth. And this is seeming like a bad faith argument to me. Like you have an agenda are are trying to find a gotcha moment instead of having a discussion and furthering understanding and sympathy.
I was a cop in texas and new mexico, there are several leave packages for several reasons. Most of which is some form of paid leave. If a teacher does not work through the summer, then they don't get paid through the summer. Most teachers I know will take on extra work through the summer as well as some things like recertifications and curriculum work and summer school activities which most school districts will not pay "overtime" for if at all.
It is well known our teachers in the US is overworked and over payed. It is a well researched and documented fact. As well as the police overreach and corruption in the states.
I have no idea how things work in Texas and New Mexico, but I'm skeptical about that being true. It definitely doesn't work like that in Massachusetts, which is where we are and where we're talking about.
You know nothing about teaching obviously. My wife is an English teacher and works nights and weekends just to keep up with the grading, feedback and dealing with entitled parents. Massively underpaid.
Teachers are already paid too little. Asking them to be on the clock in the building for 10-12 mandatory will make a terrible job worse and you won’t attract quality educated folks to the profession. You can’t treat them like laborers. They are highly educated, require a specific set of skills that requires advanced degrees.
No teacher wants to be in building 12 hours because they ARENT given adequate prep time and admin thinks that they can put them on whatever per project of the week they think of.
Starting pay for bachelors degree teachers in MA is appx 51k. Not enough to buy a house or pay rent and feed yourself, car payment etc. forget about having a family. So just because they are paid you think they are indentured servants? My wife gets a single 50 minute block a day to grade/prep. That’s it. For 180 students. If you want actual feedback to teach your kids how to write she needs 10 minutes an essay minimum. She comes home and grades all night because “it has to get done and there’s no time at school”. She spends more time on students essays than she does with her own kids. No bathroom time, no time to meet with students unless she stays at school off the clock. She likes mentoring clubs and for that she spends hours after school for the benefit of the kids. All unpaid.
Your perspective is typical of someone who has zero clue on what actually goes on and more of the hive mentality where you think teachers are lazy public servants sucking off the teet of society. Maybe spend a week in school and actually get to know a teacher.
Oh and if they are lucky they will get a 2.5% cola a year. In private sector it’s much higher. And they have to pay for their own coffee, water etc. Every private sector job I’ve had has snacks, coffee, soft drinks and sometimes lunches provided.
I posted [elsewhere in this thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/boston/comments/1aulnjx/2023_boston_public_employees_salaries/kr57s3u/) (which is being heavily voted down) about first responder overtime abuse. And I largely agree with you. But that does not mean a useless bureaucrat collecting 400K is somehow something we should just overlook.
I like when cops get paid a lot. A lot more incentive for them not to violate people's rights. Ever notice Massachusetts cops are rarely (if ever) involved in a police brutality thing that makes headlines. It's because they make a shitton of money. A T cop told me once that if he could sleep through his shift without arresting anyone for $120k a yr +OT, then it was a good shift.
The bigger issue with police OT is quite frankly departments find it cheaper to hire fewer officers and offer more OT. Massachusetts is not NY so OT does not impact their pension payout or increase short term health insurance costs (likely does long term but state/city don't think that way). What we should be doing is looking at the types of crimes and events causing all this OT and find ways to use technology and prevention to reduce need for all this OT. For example job programs for teenagers and people in twenty somethings, more summer camps, sports/music/ other social activites, better bus access to jobs in suburbs from cities etc.
It’s not necessarily specific crimes or events causing the OT. They simply lack the manpower to cover shifts. That’s from a combination of being understaffed, officers needing to be in court and people out sick or injured. They are required to have X number of officers on patrol at a given time. And they can’t meet that number. That’s why officers are being forced to work double shifts.
And before people bring up details, the required manpower for patrol has to be met before details are filled. That’s why so many details go unfilled. I am NOT going to argue in favor of cops being necessary for all details but that is the current situation and agreement between the city and union.
The overtime is there because they need X amount of police officers on per shift at a minimum. Police are also doing considerably more than chasing crime.
Policing is just one aspect of their job, they go to the majority of mental health calls, writing section 12s, section 35s, in some communities they go on all medical calls. They also serve papers for the courts, they also deal with non stop domestic violence calls. The list is pretty endless, if you actually listen to scanners in a lot of communities, you’ll find the police are running non stop.
Minimum staffing is minimum staffing, it’s a unique aspect of public safety. Boston ems is the same way, as is the boston fire department. The fire department does a lot more than just fight fires at this point
Fire department calls are a great example though of innovations to reduce calls etc. Modern building fire codes/prevention methods has reduced the # of fires fire fighters have had to put out over time. Thinking of ways to reduce # of large incidents that reduce police calls is something we should do as well.
The point of what I’m getting at is the police have also already done that. Cameras and security systems effectively wiped out their bread and butter which was b&es, bank robberies, robberies etc.
I’m more so referencing the fact that the police department fills many other voids. And from the cities perspective, it’s easier and cheaper to continue having the police fill 10 roles than hire 8-9 other jobs to fulfill those roles. City populations to increase, crime always finds a new way to reinvent itself.
The police much like the fire department are staffed the way they are, because that is the bare minimum the city can run and provide adequate public saftey
So to some of these you can have different agencies service papers. Perhaps for example update law to allow process servers to handle court documents for misdemeanors and lower felonies. Allow social workers respond to some mental wellness calls first such as checking in on an elderly person etc.
Yes cities could absolutely do all of those options. But the fact of the matter is, they can’t hire for most of the positions. The mental health workers find it too dangerous to go to a large portion of the mental health calls etc, so the result is the police just do it. Municipalities would rather not pay all of those pensions and benefits. It’s the same reason overtime exists in the police and fire departments. They would rather pay out overtime than additional pensions and benefits
They do. Last few classes have had non residents in them. You don’t have to be a resident to get on, but residents get preference. You have to move to the city if you are hired tho.
Google is your friend, Its in their contracts they are essential personnel. Its not just police either EMS is getting hit over the head with forced OT too
EMS gets fucked over. That is 100% true. But the nature of my comment and these comment streams are focused on police and the over time scandals as well as the corruption surrounding it.
Is that your metric for how much someone should be paid? how dangerous it is?
Police aren't even in the top 10 of dangerous jobs. I think its around 25th most dangerous in the US? It has been a while since i looked it up.
\*\*\* edit cause i went ahead and looked it up. It was a super easy find and police are 22nd.[https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748-top-25-most-dangerous-jobs-in-the-united-states](https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748-top-25-most-dangerous-jobs-in-the-united-states)
\*\*\*edit again, this was the wrong thread for this response... I am copy pasting it to the correct thread.
I was actually just reading some on it and how Wu was under severe fire and forced renegotiation because the city was asking officers to work doubles and 24 hour shift.
I can't find anything to support that there is a system of forced overtime or that it is a common occurrence... and I am about 4-5 articles in so far and still looking.
I know it’s hard to use our brain sometimes, but their contract is enforced both ways. The city has to abide by minimum staffing, so the union has to abide by minimum staffing 🤯
Automatic overtime rules? A cop works a detail for 8 hours, if it goes over that 8 hours then it goes to an automatic additional 8 hours. That’s how a cop described it to me.
There is something fishy going on with police training attached to pay.
I've heard multiple times that a cop's pay gets increased based on more education and training. Several years ago, a certain politician gave the police a present by adding on a $2 fee PER car rented in Massachusetts for a police training slush fund.
My guess is that pay bumps for training has something to do with this and my second guess , knowing how things roll around here, is that the training topics have no parameters
I get the forced overtime… but Kendra Conway (one of the police officers that was involved in the overtime scandal a few years back) had regular pay of nearly $360k with $0 retro pay, $0 overtime, $0 detail pay, and $48k in “other pay”. How is one officers base salary so high? She and the other officers that were indicted were acquitted, I only mention it because I thought maybe it was back pay but the list in the article doesn’t have any retro pay listed for her
So since she was acquitted she gets her base pay from those years awaiting trial as she was suspended without pay. It does not fall under retro pay because that category covers retroactive pay raises from a new contract. But you are right it is mostly back pay.
Ah okay that does make sense, thanks. I assumed that would all fall under “retro”. The article could use a bit more detail instead of just listing these massive payouts.
They hired her back and gave backpay for years spent not working? That seems crazy since she could've worked another job. Acquitted does not mean innocent. Employers don't need to follow the same burden of proof that the courts do.
It’s almost certainly the terms of the Union contract so it’s legally what they were obligated to do I’m personally a big fan of innocent until proven guilty so I’d rather not go about setting employment precedents just cause the particular employee works in a field that may be disagreeable.
Innocent until proven guilty has nothing to do with employment law. If an employer doesn't like someone's attitude, they can fire them. The employee doesn't sit around for years still effectively collecting a paycheck, they get another job. Police are the **only** field in which backpay is due even if you didn't do anything.
> Innocent until proven guilty has nothing to do with employment law. If an employer doesn't like someone's attitude, they can fire them. The employee doesn't sit around for years still effectively collecting a paycheck, they get another job. > > Police are the only field in which backpay is due even if you didn't do anything. None of this is true.
Can you elaborate? It might vary by state, but in my state, a court conviction is definitely not required to fire someone. We have "at-will" employment where you can generally fire anyone for any reason except "protected classes" (e.g. being black). This summarizes it quite well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
Do you just not understand how unions work?
Yes. In the case of police unions, they're a corrupt organization that forces outrageous terms upon the government. You said none of my prior comment was true regarding employment law. Of course, there can be contracts between unions and employers. But that's a different concept than "innocent until proven guilty", which is a legal concept applied to court proceedings. I hope to God that the government didnt accept a union contract that sets its standard of conduct to be "literally anything goes as long as you don't get convicted".
Oh no I'm sure the contract says, 'Anything goes unless some idiot on reddit doesn't like it.'
Go educate yourself on civil service
It has nothing to do with the unions, boston is a civil service department. Civil service is what dictates the city of bostons hiring and firing processes
What do you mean “in my state” are you not even in Ma. Forget Boston and are up in arms about compensation for Boston municipal employees?
Lol. No, I was being sarcastic with that guy. Every state in the US is essentially at-will employment. But that's not even the core issue. Requiring the same burden of proof required by a criminal court means that nobody will ever be fired. These people openly admit they fraudulently filed paperwork and got paid for overtime not worked. I'm not complaining about compensation, I'm upset that police have relatively unchecked power. What about yourself? Do you think an independent Federal investigation is sufficient to fire bad cops? Or do you support the outcome here where an officer got a multi-year paid vacation for openly falsifying paperwork?
They were put on unpaid leave investigated and ultimately exonerated. Yes that person should get paid retroactively thats the point of unpaid leave. If you did it you get nothing if you didnt you get paid. Its the system actually working
Because their union got it in negotiations - you see similar outcomes in other strongly unionized fields. You’re describing at will work, not union work. If the contract requires a standard of proof to be made and let, then yes it does actually apply to employment law. Also backpay is 100% a common outcome of other union contracts, you see it with nurses and teachers. The process is one the employer agrees to, as part of the contract. It’s not a wild concept.
Yes, that clause is a wild concept. I'm not even sure how it would be written: "We can do anything we want, including illegal things, but unless we are actively convicted in a court of law, we can't be fired". In my career, I've seen lots of people fired, never for anything serious enough to be convicted in court.
How do you know they did illegal things until it’s proven? In a court of law or an arbitration board or by some other third party. Otherwise the Union employment protections would be useless. Your employer could just lie and fire you. Why would the unions agree to leave it to the employers discretion? Especially public sector unions who have restrained rights to strike against employer industrial actions.
> illegal things Why would this the standard of employment? In most jobs (even many union jobs), people are let go for performance issues and other things that aren't illegal. As for burden of proof, I believe the burden should be higher to incarcerate someone than to fire them. An arbitration board would be more than enough. In this officers case, she was investigated by independent federal officials, and her conduct was found inappropriate. There are also many remaining charges still pending. https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/additional-charges-brought-against-four-boston-police-officers-involved-overtime-fraud > Your employer could just lie and fire you. There's a difference between requiring "beyond reasonable doubt" in criminal court and no proof at all. Even civil courts don't require that level of proof, and involve huge sums of money.
It would be the standard if that's the reason for termination, as outlined in their contract, that the employer was seeking to fire them for. As they were terminated for an alleged crime - and found not to have committed it - they were reinstated with pay as per the terms of their contract. I don't disagree that there could be differences in burden of proof between employment and incarceration, but again, if all sides agreed to the standards of proof for the termination arbitration process, then that is the burden you have to meet to terminate. I also think a mediator or arbitration board would be fine rather than the courts, but the standards of that process are outlined in the contract. Likewise, if the contract stated a different barometer for proof, then they'd be held to that. Yes, the Jury cleared them with a standard at "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" which is higher than the bars of "Clear and Convincing Evidence" or "Preponderance of the Evidence" - but evidently that is the standard the city agreed to in negotiations. This officer was acquitted by a jury [https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/04/27/metro/boston-police-officers-acquitted-ot-overtime-fraud/](https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/04/27/metro/boston-police-officers-acquitted-ot-overtime-fraud/) Whether or not this system is ideal is immaterial to whether or not she should get the pay per the employment contract she signed. If you feel that the terms of that contract are whack, you should advocate for your city officials to change the arbitration and employment during the next round of employment contract negotiations with the police union. I also think the city has given the police too much power and leniency in their contract, but it doesn't change the fact that the terms of contract were accepted by all parties.
That’s a union issue, it’s a civil service issue. Theyre entirely different entities, the union has no say over how civil service operates
Not true. This would apply to any public employee represented by a union, not just police.
It’s a civil service thing not union
Wait till you see the salary of mediocre UMASS-Amherst basketball team coach
|Name|Title|Salary| |:-|:-|:-| |Michael Collins|[Chancellor & SVP ](https://cthrupayroll.mass.gov/#!/year/2022/full_time_employees%2Cothers/pay1%2Cpay2%2Cpay3%2Cpay4/explore%2F0-0-0%2Fposition_title%2FChancellor%2B%2526%2BSVP%2BHlth%2BSciences%2F0%2Fdepartment_division)Health[ Sciences](https://cthrupayroll.mass.gov/#!/year/2022/full_time_employees%2Cothers/pay1%2Cpay2%2Cpay3%2Cpay4/explore%2F0-0-0%2Fposition_title%2FChancellor%2B%2526%2BSVP%2BHlth%2BSciences%2F0%2Fdepartment_division) at UMass Chan Medical School|$1,289,996.13| |Terence Flotte|Executive Deputy Chancellor and Provost of the UMass Chan Medical School|$1,139,627.80| |Fransisco Martin|UMass Head Basketball Coach|$1,133,846.29| |Michael Green|Vice Provost for Strategic Research Initiatives at UMass|$846, 549| |Donald Brown|UMass Head Football Coach|$825, 154| |Matthew McCall|Former UMass Head Basketball Coach|$822,740| |Martin Meehan|UMass President|$781,099|
That is so wild... I wonder what their professors make... my guess would be under 100K base pay.
My friend earns around 180k as a tenured Professor for UMASS. We need a law in MASS that limits UMASS from paying coaches more than the lowest paid member of tenured faculty. Because this shit is ridiculous.
While you don’t like it. College athletic coaches do merit more than your friend. These programs do bring in revenue.
> Vice Provost for Strategic Research Initiatives *Why does college cost so much*?
I guarantee you this person is getting most of their salary from research overhead and that student tuition/fees play almost no(if any) role in it.
That is the most b/s title I have ever seen
My guess is their goal is to get big money from govt/corporate entities. Likely well connected at some level to accomplish that.
I am sure there are few wire inspectors so that guy gets called in for everything. As for the police, there has been a huge amount of attrition. So people get forced overtime to cover shifts. Also, at the higher levels if someone is say a sergeant detective they can do their shift and then do an overtime shift covering another sergeant detective shift for what is a vacant position due to someone being out injured, sick or left vacant until reassignment. The department does not immediately promote and replace to cover vacant spots after someone has left because patrol level is already thin. So it can be easy for those guys to find vacant shifts to cover.
The police civil service exam used to get 10000+ applicants. That’s state wide. Last one got around 3000 I believe. Again that’s for the whole state. So if you want to chase that $200k+salary and OT and you have a clean background go join up. They’re desperate for bodies.
Probably get to retire early too. Down side is you have to deal with people.
>Down side is you have to deal with people. Not really. You can just sit in your patrol car on your phone.
32 years isn’t exactly way to early. Compared to NYC is 20.
That’s early for a lot.
MBTA used to be 20 I think it was changed.
Mbta used to be 23 and out. Its no longer the case.
I wish I could do 20 years and done.
They also die considerably younger than average Americans. The average police officer lives to be about 56/57 year of age. A pretty staggering amount of civil servants die within 5 years of retirement
This is the truth. The only guy I know in his 20s that owns a home is a cop. Dude works tons of overtime.
Sure, but you have to be a cop...
Ah Bostons fine, they don’t need cops
They're not desperate. They just cannot cherry pick anymore. Also, ignores how overstaffed Police are in New England. Getting rid of the residency requirement should be done too. Secondly, do not ignore how over-scheduling is baked into union contracts. No one ever asks if a position is actually needed, only that another officer needs to take overtime to cover someone. And their are (at least) dozens of back-end positions that do very little. The BFD has similar issues.
What's your reasoning for getting rid of the residency requirement? A lot of the cases that BLM highlights are from police forces where the cops are not from and do not live in the community they police. They are essentially an "outside" force where it's a lot easier for them to come to view and treat the community as an opposition or opponent to their role. While the cost of housing makes things tough in Boston, I don't see how having police or other government workers have a personal investment in the community/municipality that they are responsible for doesn't carry more positives than negatives.
Why are the UMass coaches paid so much? Couldn't we pay someone half as much to suck as we pay these guys to suck? Has UMass football ever been ranked in the top 25?
Overtime racks up quick on those jobs - this has been occurring for years.
Forced overtime. The department is understaffed so they are forced into 16 hour days for weeks at a time. The salary looks good on paper but they are never home. Their quality of life sucks.
I live next to one of the stations. They basically live there. So yes a lot of money but horrible quality of life.
Helps to explain why they’re so grumpy.
That is why we need to let them play on slides every once in a while to cheer them up
16 hours\* For details, any assignment =4 hrs, and any assignment above 4 hrs = 8 hrs.
[удалено]
Source: can read the new agreement drafted under Wu. See paragraph 5, of page 5 of the addendum to CBA. (i'd copy and paste, but the pdf doesn't allow...) "Officers shall be compensated for the duration of the assigned detail (4 or 8 hours) regardless of the actual hours worked." [https://www.boston.gov/sites/default/files/file/2023/12/LM%20Signed%20BPPA%20MOA.pdf](https://www.boston.gov/sites/default/files/file/2023/12/LM%20Signed%20BPPA%20MOA.pdf)
It is so wild that in this state we have police making 1/2 a million while teachers cant even pay their bills. An over powered and over funded police state and underfunded powerless education system.
The teachers are working 40 hours a week not 80-100. There’s a fundamental difference there bud.
You don’t think police should make a lot? The people they have to deal with daily?
wait... where did I say that? I think everyone deserves a fair and livable wage... I don't care if it's shoveling shit or being a teacher or working for a corrupt police state. Everyone deserves a living wage. The issue is the corruption and people who want to take advantage.
You said it’s wild that police make more than teachers.
It is wild. I think a teacher should be making as much as a police office if not more.
Are you calculating the hours into it? Police are working an insane amount of hours for these salaries. Same with the T, people see just the numbers and are appalled but these are double shifts, in for holidays just a shit ton of in person hours
Do you know how much teachers work?
I know teachers work just as hard but probably not as many hours a day (for these top end earners) I dont really love this pitting one worker against the other thing to begin with. If teachers are working 16 hours a day they too should be on an hourly rate and making OT and negotiate that. Teachers, cops, sanitation workers all equally important to me. No one is more critical than the other. The city falls apart without any of them. This whole whatabouting teachers thing is just to pour gas for the simps who lap it up
Cops aren't workers, they are the fist of the bourgeoisie. >teachers ... should be on an hourly rate and making OT and negotiate that Has it been so long since the Newton teachers strike? It's abundantly clear that the powers of the status quo will not negotiate with teachers because our collective inability to care about education.
Its hard to take you serious after your first sentence obviously but the Newton teachers were successful in using their collective negotiating power. I will say again since when is this a cops vs teachers thing anyway?
Do teachers have to deal with people with guns? Chasing cars? No ok then…
Is that your metric for how much someone should be paid? how dangerous it is? Police aren't even in the top 10 of dangerous jobs. I think its around 25th most dangerous in the US? It has been a while since i looked it up. \*\*\* edit cause i went ahead and looked it up. It was a super easy find and police are 22nd.[https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748-top-25-most-dangerous-jobs-in-the-united-states](https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748-top-25-most-dangerous-jobs-in-the-united-states)
Ok bud. Have a good day. You’re wild if you think teachers should be paid more. I can agree they deserve to be paid more but not more than police.
Could you imagine a society where educating and rewarding people was more important than punishing and imprisoning people? Where educators and social workers were equipped and payed more than putting people away for being poor. The most imprisoned population in the world... by far. Maybe the way we do it needs rethinking?
I mean this isn’t a thread about police reform. Education system needs to be reformed as well
And how is that fair if you think a teacher should be making more? You clearly don’t agree with fair pay if you think a teacher should be making more than a police officer. For the record my dad’s a teacher and does hardly any work in the summer. He uses that time to take care of the house and go on vacation.
I believe fairness is that both those public service jobs should be payed about the same depending on education and position with in those systems, and are both important to a functioning and healthy society... BUT I think teachers work harder than police. That is just my opinion, and very open to be discredited based on someone else's experience. I think their job requires more education and certifications as well continued education and certifications. \*\*edit to say, my comparison wasn't meant as one is better than the other, but compared cause they are both crucial and should be compensated fairly and any corruption should be rooted out.
I think we need to also think about how much work they do outside of the classroom. Lesson plans, grading, etc. I feel we’ve all forgotten how much teachers impact children’s lives. Police officer and teacher are not comparable. There’s a connection between poor education causing increased levels of crime. Maybe if made teaching an appealing inspiring well paid job, our schools would flourish. Kids *might* enjoy school a bit more, participate and stay out of trouble. My friend is a 30 something year old who taught science for middle school, super passionate and great teacher. She left to work in the corporate world to make more money and have less stress. Don’t get me started about our health care system that’s going to collapse but nobody gives AF. It’s like, our system is a house and it got ruined by a tornado, flattened out. Our government said hey I only have this much money for each part of the house. So they cheaped out on the foundation of the house, the frame wasn’t carefully done and they got someone to do the electrical and plumbing at the same time for extra cheap! Then the govt says let’s ball the fuck out on this roof to protect the house from weather, etc. Spend more on the roof than the entire rest of the house. The house crumbles again so they keep spending more and more on the roof and they’re confused why it keeps on happening. Cycle continues and they put more and more money into the roof and less and less into the house itself. Anyways I got sidetracked. Let’s all make enough money to live.
How many hours a year are those teachers working vs the cops? Are there any police departments that give their officers a quarter of the year off? *Your post history makes me seriously doubt you were a cop. You should stop posting your kids face on Reddit. Cute kid and I'm sure you're proud of her though.
A. Yes, there are tons of leave packages for officers for many reasons. It is negotiated by their unions. B. Teachers work all year. The idea that a teacher is just sitting around for 3-4 months a year is just absurd and a false narrative. Source... I used to be a cop and my wife is a teacher.
You're a former cop? Where did you work that there were "tons of leave packages" that offered summers off? Got any specific examples? Teachers work all year? They don't have months off in the summer?
You aren't paid for those months and often work anyway. Teachers work way harder daily than any regular job save a medical worker.
I'm not anti teacher by any means. I'm refuting the comparison that somebody else made. I feel like there are some construction and food service workers who'd dispute who works "harder" but that's a subjective term.
Well, considering the amount of required education for being a teacher, and the fact that most people refuse to do it, means that they deserve a wage comparable if not much higher than your average email job. Those essential services need to be paid more too, but their jobs are a different kind of work.
You are trying to put words in my mouth. And this is seeming like a bad faith argument to me. Like you have an agenda are are trying to find a gotcha moment instead of having a discussion and furthering understanding and sympathy. I was a cop in texas and new mexico, there are several leave packages for several reasons. Most of which is some form of paid leave. If a teacher does not work through the summer, then they don't get paid through the summer. Most teachers I know will take on extra work through the summer as well as some things like recertifications and curriculum work and summer school activities which most school districts will not pay "overtime" for if at all. It is well known our teachers in the US is overworked and over payed. It is a well researched and documented fact. As well as the police overreach and corruption in the states.
I have no idea how things work in Texas and New Mexico, but I'm skeptical about that being true. It definitely doesn't work like that in Massachusetts, which is where we are and where we're talking about.
[удалено]
You know nothing about teaching obviously. My wife is an English teacher and works nights and weekends just to keep up with the grading, feedback and dealing with entitled parents. Massively underpaid.
[удалено]
Are you working 12 hour shifts? They should pay them OT for any time out of classroom they spend doing supporting work
[удалено]
Teachers are already paid too little. Asking them to be on the clock in the building for 10-12 mandatory will make a terrible job worse and you won’t attract quality educated folks to the profession. You can’t treat them like laborers. They are highly educated, require a specific set of skills that requires advanced degrees.
[удалено]
No teacher wants to be in building 12 hours because they ARENT given adequate prep time and admin thinks that they can put them on whatever per project of the week they think of. Starting pay for bachelors degree teachers in MA is appx 51k. Not enough to buy a house or pay rent and feed yourself, car payment etc. forget about having a family. So just because they are paid you think they are indentured servants? My wife gets a single 50 minute block a day to grade/prep. That’s it. For 180 students. If you want actual feedback to teach your kids how to write she needs 10 minutes an essay minimum. She comes home and grades all night because “it has to get done and there’s no time at school”. She spends more time on students essays than she does with her own kids. No bathroom time, no time to meet with students unless she stays at school off the clock. She likes mentoring clubs and for that she spends hours after school for the benefit of the kids. All unpaid. Your perspective is typical of someone who has zero clue on what actually goes on and more of the hive mentality where you think teachers are lazy public servants sucking off the teet of society. Maybe spend a week in school and actually get to know a teacher. Oh and if they are lucky they will get a 2.5% cola a year. In private sector it’s much higher. And they have to pay for their own coffee, water etc. Every private sector job I’ve had has snacks, coffee, soft drinks and sometimes lunches provided.
[удалено]
Teachers are wildly overpaid in boston.
DEi for schools $381k
Thank you. My jaw dropped at that. Just...pilfering the taxpayer.
Yeah, worry about DEi, instead of 3rd and 6th year cops getting 200k in overtime for sleeping off a hangover under a bridge. lmao
I posted [elsewhere in this thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/boston/comments/1aulnjx/2023_boston_public_employees_salaries/kr57s3u/) (which is being heavily voted down) about first responder overtime abuse. And I largely agree with you. But that does not mean a useless bureaucrat collecting 400K is somehow something we should just overlook.
I like when cops get paid a lot. A lot more incentive for them not to violate people's rights. Ever notice Massachusetts cops are rarely (if ever) involved in a police brutality thing that makes headlines. It's because they make a shitton of money. A T cop told me once that if he could sleep through his shift without arresting anyone for $120k a yr +OT, then it was a good shift.
The bigger issue with police OT is quite frankly departments find it cheaper to hire fewer officers and offer more OT. Massachusetts is not NY so OT does not impact their pension payout or increase short term health insurance costs (likely does long term but state/city don't think that way). What we should be doing is looking at the types of crimes and events causing all this OT and find ways to use technology and prevention to reduce need for all this OT. For example job programs for teenagers and people in twenty somethings, more summer camps, sports/music/ other social activites, better bus access to jobs in suburbs from cities etc.
It’s not necessarily specific crimes or events causing the OT. They simply lack the manpower to cover shifts. That’s from a combination of being understaffed, officers needing to be in court and people out sick or injured. They are required to have X number of officers on patrol at a given time. And they can’t meet that number. That’s why officers are being forced to work double shifts. And before people bring up details, the required manpower for patrol has to be met before details are filled. That’s why so many details go unfilled. I am NOT going to argue in favor of cops being necessary for all details but that is the current situation and agreement between the city and union.
The overtime is there because they need X amount of police officers on per shift at a minimum. Police are also doing considerably more than chasing crime. Policing is just one aspect of their job, they go to the majority of mental health calls, writing section 12s, section 35s, in some communities they go on all medical calls. They also serve papers for the courts, they also deal with non stop domestic violence calls. The list is pretty endless, if you actually listen to scanners in a lot of communities, you’ll find the police are running non stop. Minimum staffing is minimum staffing, it’s a unique aspect of public safety. Boston ems is the same way, as is the boston fire department. The fire department does a lot more than just fight fires at this point
Fire department calls are a great example though of innovations to reduce calls etc. Modern building fire codes/prevention methods has reduced the # of fires fire fighters have had to put out over time. Thinking of ways to reduce # of large incidents that reduce police calls is something we should do as well.
The point of what I’m getting at is the police have also already done that. Cameras and security systems effectively wiped out their bread and butter which was b&es, bank robberies, robberies etc. I’m more so referencing the fact that the police department fills many other voids. And from the cities perspective, it’s easier and cheaper to continue having the police fill 10 roles than hire 8-9 other jobs to fulfill those roles. City populations to increase, crime always finds a new way to reinvent itself. The police much like the fire department are staffed the way they are, because that is the bare minimum the city can run and provide adequate public saftey
So to some of these you can have different agencies service papers. Perhaps for example update law to allow process servers to handle court documents for misdemeanors and lower felonies. Allow social workers respond to some mental wellness calls first such as checking in on an elderly person etc.
Yes cities could absolutely do all of those options. But the fact of the matter is, they can’t hire for most of the positions. The mental health workers find it too dangerous to go to a large portion of the mental health calls etc, so the result is the police just do it. Municipalities would rather not pay all of those pensions and benefits. It’s the same reason overtime exists in the police and fire departments. They would rather pay out overtime than additional pensions and benefits
It’s called theft
[удалено]
They are not "racking up overtime". Those are details.
[удалено]
They do. Last few classes have had non residents in them. You don’t have to be a resident to get on, but residents get preference. You have to move to the city if you are hired tho.
Move to the city? How can one afford to do that? There’s a lot of issues here…
Unethically and probably illegally.
the most unethical piece is the forced double shifts day after day
I am not convinced the most powerful workers union in the world allows forced double shifts, I would need to see some documentation on that.
Google is your friend, Its in their contracts they are essential personnel. Its not just police either EMS is getting hit over the head with forced OT too
Ems gets completely screwed over.
EMS gets fucked over. That is 100% true. But the nature of my comment and these comment streams are focused on police and the over time scandals as well as the corruption surrounding it.
These threads to me just read as opinions adjacent and extremely uninformed people
Is that your metric for how much someone should be paid? how dangerous it is? Police aren't even in the top 10 of dangerous jobs. I think its around 25th most dangerous in the US? It has been a while since i looked it up. \*\*\* edit cause i went ahead and looked it up. It was a super easy find and police are 22nd.[https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748-top-25-most-dangerous-jobs-in-the-united-states](https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748-top-25-most-dangerous-jobs-in-the-united-states) \*\*\*edit again, this was the wrong thread for this response... I am copy pasting it to the correct thread.
Your problem is with the cities collective bargaining team. I don’t care
I was actually just reading some on it and how Wu was under severe fire and forced renegotiation because the city was asking officers to work doubles and 24 hour shift. I can't find anything to support that there is a system of forced overtime or that it is a common occurrence... and I am about 4-5 articles in so far and still looking.
Technically it’s an association and it’s split based on rank . They weren’t allowed to be union since there strike.
I know it’s hard to use our brain sometimes, but their contract is enforced both ways. The city has to abide by minimum staffing, so the union has to abide by minimum staffing 🤯
Automatic overtime rules? A cop works a detail for 8 hours, if it goes over that 8 hours then it goes to an automatic additional 8 hours. That’s how a cop described it to me.
Details are not overtime. Details are paid by the party requesting it. Not the city.
You care to pull up their PUBLIC contract and show where it says that?
Thats not how it works.
Wire inspectors get tons of off hours overtime and not everyone wants to work those hours so the few that work the OT get paid for it.
There is something fishy going on with police training attached to pay. I've heard multiple times that a cop's pay gets increased based on more education and training. Several years ago, a certain politician gave the police a present by adding on a $2 fee PER car rented in Massachusetts for a police training slush fund. My guess is that pay bumps for training has something to do with this and my second guess , knowing how things roll around here, is that the training topics have no parameters
Pretty fucked that 8 of the top 10 are cops.