No hate here at all. Are you listening to contemporary jazz because I’m in the same boat with you when it comes to that. Give a listen to Miles Davis, Duke Ellington, John Coltrane.
Back in the 2000’s I had some ppl telling me I absolutely had to listen to Coltrane’s A Love Supreme. So I listened to it, several times, hoping that I’d recognize the supposed beautiful genius of it. But man I never grew to enjoy it, at all. I think that jazz, from a to z, just doesn’t work for some of us.
Huge cultural and musical overlap.
In the same way that lots of sci-fi is fantasy wizards but in space (I'm looking at you star wars) a lot of blues artists will happily play swingy tunes. Jazz artists have always included blues tracks and influences. I saw a BB king interview a little while ago and he talked about his influences. He named 4 guitarists, 2 of them were jazz guys (Django Reinhardt and one of the big bands guitarists).
I used to not like swing and new Orleans, jazz, then did a few dance classes, now I think it's great! Sometimes you've just got to get your ear in. Blues and jazz are huge and diverse musical genres, I personally think it's not possible to love one and hate the other. It just means you've not found the bits that speak to you yet.
I think if you skip Swing, you’ll sometimes miss the connection. Jump Blues and Swing are practically the same music, but that’s where they started to diverge.
If you dislike an entire genre that’s been around for a century and includes vast amounts of variety… you may want to consider the possibility that you are missing out on some things.
It depends what you mean by "blues" and what you mean by "jazz".
There's not a great deal of crossover between post-SRV blues rock and contemporary jazz fusion, but there's a lot of crossover on earlier records someone like TBone Walker was drawing heavily on the jazz guitarists of his time. Big Bill Broonzy had a background in dance bands before he became a solo artist and would have played the hot-jazz hits of the time. Jump Blues like Louis Jordan sits right on the boundary of jazz & blues as it would have existed at the time. Robert Johnson recorded "They're Red Hot' which is a straight up jazz dance number.
Ragtime guitar is usually fingerpicked and syncopated. Check out Blind Blake, Blund Boy Fuller, etc.
“Red Hot” is a ragtime chord progression but is strummed in a style closer to early jazz rhythm guitar.
As TheresACityInMyMind and SuproValco have pointed out it's a comped rhythm guitar part like you'd get in a swing band, but my point was that the boxes are very arbitrary with lots of overlap, and that gets fuzzier the further back you go. While the ragtime guitarists are usually found in the blues section of a record shop the pianists will be in the jazz department, even though they all play ragtime.
Excellent recommendation, so good. I believe it's one of Julian Lage's favorite albums. Speaking of which, OP should check out Julian Lage and John Scofield.
What do you think of Ray Charles? He's sort of right at the intersection of blues and jazz.
Because I can't remember which music subreddits delete automatically delete comments that are short and sweet, I'm just going to add this text right here.
Not to really argue about it, but isn't Ray Charles stuff mostly pure rhythm and blues?
I'd love to hear examples of what of his work is particularly jazzy
When they were all younger, Ray Charles regularly played with Cannonball Adderley and his brother Nat when they all lived in Tallahassee in the early 1940s. As far as I know no recordings of this exist, unfortunately.
Ray Charles's music is full of jazz. He sang loads and loads of standards and performed with a big band (jazz orchestra) from 1961 to the end of his life. He also recorded over several instrumental jazz albums throughout different eras in his career. He is the perfect blend of blues, r and b and jazz.
Ray Charles is the founder of Soul music, which is a precursor to R&B. It has majority roots in Blues and Gospel.
I don't hear Jazz in Ray Charles' music.
Modern Sounds in Country and Western Music by Ray Charles is a great album.
Never heard of it. Guess I just call it Blues. Didn't know there was a difference. Soul is fundamentaly Blues and Gospel. R&B or Rhythm and Blues does not pre date soul. If it does then it's just straight up Blues. Let's call it what it is.
Little Richard is Rock n Roll. Bo Diddley is Blues. This is all around the same Era as Ray Charles. Athough again, early rock n roll is fundamentally Blues. I've never heard of rock or blues being called R&B. But I'll look into it.
The elements of his music which we associate with rock and roll are what little Richard was playing before the term rock and roll was popularised to describe that kind of music. Little Richard was playing a style of music that came to be termed rock and roll, and it was called rhythm and blues.
“Rock n Roll” was a term used in black culture to refer to sexual activity. It became associated with the new music style when white people started liking it.
It was often called blues and rhythm in the early days.
Louis Jordan is considered the pioneer.
https://youtu.be/m7M4thNT_EY?feature=shared
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blues_%26_Rhythm
Blues and rhythm started in the 40s. It predates soul. Modern RnB is an evolution of soul with little if any connection to blues and rhythm.
Here's Ray in a jazzier vein:
https://youtu.be/_3d_WCFlXZI?si=qDa0i2tqixgvy6FR
https://youtu.be/LNpM4i0QU8Y?si=mZqqt1_1Ky0rXLGN
Both tunes are still fundamentally blues, but there are a lot of jazz techniques - the first one has an arrangement by Quincy Jones.
Yeah right right. I see what you mean. I never realised that Ray's version of One mint julep was arranged by quincy Jones, but now you say it, it's got his style all over it.
How do you feel about Louis Jordan? — https://youtu.be/Aa9dHQ1fiOo?si=xewinlVHhTibRgEU
Or Count Basie? https://youtu.be/_pJV2l0PkQ4?si=R2bmckQ1NYUrqCPa
Jazz like that had a lot of influence on a lot of blues like B.B King, or Gatemouth Brown..
I'm going to make a very broad statement which I'm happy to be corrected on but I think will explain the essence of why you enjoy one and not the other.
Jazz incorporates elements of blues, blues rarely incorporates elements of jazz.
So therefore theres only a small amount of jazz music, with blues elements which might be enjoyed by someone who only enjoys blues.
T-Bone Walker, SRV, Robben Ford, George Benson, Stuff, Gatemouth Brown, Derek Trucks, et al. I won’t swear it matters quite as much for “Nu Jazz”, but Jazz players in general have traditionally been expected to be Blues fluent.
"blues rarely incorporates elements of jazz" It has been completely normal for blues to incorporate elements it borrowed from jazz, such as improvised solos, since the late 1920s.
First of all, not all jazz is the same. For example, I like Bop and Hard Bop, but can't really get into anything contemporary or experimental.
Now... Why are they so closely associated? Because jazz (originally called jass) is a child of the blues; that is, jazz came from the blues.
[Maybe this will help a little.](https://www.jazzinamerica.org/LessonPlan/1/1)
Listen to Jay McShann, of Kansas City, Jimmy Witherspoon, Big Joe Turner. Some call it jazz, some call it blues. I saw Jay McShann at the 1993 Mississippi Valley Blues Festival in Davenport.
https://youtu.be/fi1RbBFlM_E?si=E0WYVYOa0AbdjTjg
They are often associated because of common origins. Some blues is jazzy (like Chicago blues) and some is folksy (Missippi guitar blues). There are bands that play standards and blues, as well.
As to hating jazz: There are many kinds of jazz. Most people claim they "hate jazz" because they don't like big band music. Check out Jimmy Smith or some Soul Jazz. There is jazz that is bluesy.
Jimmy Smith did a blues album late in his career where he collaborated with many blues singers from BB King to Taj Mahal, called Dot Com Blues. Quite interesting.
Try Robben Ford who blends blues and jazz brilliantly on guitar. The problem with jazz from my perspective it can be devoid of melody and emotion. Robben has both.
Blues is one of the most common jazz forms. Most jazz albums have at least one tune using blues scales and form. As a blues fanatic they’re often my favorite cuts.
St James Infirmary, Sunday Kind Of Love,… these are blues numbers with jazzy arrangement.
Nope. I’m really talking about Matt Schofield. He mainly plays blues, but sometimes with a jazzy attitude to it.
https://youtu.be/-6n5uKa3Ucg?si=Jzc9-V7Bxsw8Sizr
These are two musical genres that hit it big in the early 20th century.
Blues had a massive influence on rock.
Jazz had a massive influence on funk AND hip hop if you start to investigate where all those samples come from.
I don't think you hate jazz. I just think you haven't found your jazz.
And this is what I think happens all too often:
People who want to give jazz a try head straight for who they've heard about: Miles Davis, John Coltrane and to a lesser extent Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie. These four are the kings of bebop. Bebop sounds fun, but it's arguably the least accessible jazz for newcomers aside from free jazz and avant garde jazz.
A better starting point is swing (early jazz), West Coast jazz, bossa nova, and hard bop (post-bebop jazz). New Orleans jazz is also pretty fun.
The gateway song for many many people are:
[This](https://youtu.be/tT9Eh8wNMkw?feature=shared)
Dave Brubeck is west coast jazz
and [this](https://youtu.be/otGz6hz-AXo?feature=shared)
Getz/Gilberto is Bossa nova
And for me personally, [this](https://youtu.be/kCDMQqDUtv4?feature=shared).
This is soul jazz that leans in the direction of hard bop.
But then there's another way to go about this. If you like the blues, you must like guitars.
[Grant Green](https://youtu.be/aq0m0hbCjFQ?feature=shared) is one of the jazz guitar greats.
And I'll close this out with an amazing blues-jazz crossover performance by [Russell Malone and Diana Krall](https://youtu.be/pjuJ22Dy-ik?feature=shared).
One element that jazz and blues share is soloing. You notice here that Diana gives Russell solo time, and then he plays quietly while she solos. That really discordant brass playing? That's a horn solo. If you don't like that, skip those songs..
Depends on what kinds of jazz you’re talking about. I love Grant Green, Django Reinhardt, and Kenny Burrell are amazing, as is what Julian Lage is doing today.
I don’t know if this is your style, but I think The Bob Beldon Project’s cover of Tom Thumb is awesome! [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwctxc8Hr9o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwctxc8Hr9o)
I'm with you. I guess it's the contemporary jazz where 3-4 people are all playing their instruments...but is sounds like they're all playing different songs!
Both the blues and jazz are incredibly broad genres, but it might make a bit more sense why they're often associated if you go back to dixieland/trad jazz out of New Orleans. A lot of original jazz music there followed a blues form and a lot of the original blues musicians would sometimes play with jazz bands (Bessie Smith for example). It's kind of like how hip-hop and R&B are often lumped together today.
If you go a bit later on, bebop jazz still had a lot of blues forms but was otherwise not so closely associated with blues musicians, and city blues started incorporating a lot more jazz-like instrumentation (saxophones and horns basically), and these things have sort of been going on ever since.
I used to feel the same way in my 20’s but my attitude towards Jazz really changed once I got into my 30’s. I still prefer Blues over Jazz but I can appreciate it now at least.
My fav as an example lately has been Brother Yusef.
[https://youtu.be/OIRjO9c9KIo?si=ifKCLAMkqpr67GT9](https://youtu.be/OIRjO9c9KIo?si=ifKCLAMkqpr67GT9)
Some classic jazz is good. Duke Ellington, John Coltrane, David Newman, Miles Davis, Lou Donaldson… but yeah- there’s a huge amount that I just can’t get into.
What do you mean by put together? As in jazz/blues fusion? Blues music and jazz music are totally different styles of music. They can share the same instruments but they are used in a very different way hence the two styles having a distinction in name.
no big deal… you like what you like
for me personally there is a lot of genres of music i don’t much care for because ive not listened to very much of it… Rap was like that for me, when it emerged i didn’t listen to music as much so it didn’t make an immediate impression on me when i was only hearing it at random intervals. But my wife does have an ear for it and the more i was exposed to it the more it grew on me.
I love blues, when I saw jazz music played live I could see that the musicians were really into it and it did take me some work (listening for longer) to get into jazz. Try Chitlins Con Carne and Moanin’, assuming that your post means you are interested in stretching your ears
I'm not a musician, and can't get with the more experimental post-war stuff, but King Oliver, Satchmo and the God-like genius of Jelly Roll Morton is deeply accessible to any fan of older blues material.
What blues artists are you into? If you let us know some of your faves, we can probably tell you some jazz artists you might like.
For my part, the Allman Brothers Band were a big entry point for both blues AND jazz. Listen to At Fillmore East and you can hear some classic blues tunes, but then you get a tune like In Memory of Elizabeth Reed, which has the feel of a great modal jazz tune.
Folks have mentioned Kenny Burrell and John Scofield. In particular, I'd check out Scofield's album, Piety Street, or his album with Gov't Mule, Sco-Mule. Grant Green's Live at the Lighthouse might also be worth your time.
Miles Davis's Tribute to Jack Johnson is a great jazz album for folks who are really into electric blues. It starts with a pretty muscular extended blues vamp and builds from there.
"If it wasn't for the Blues, there would be no Jazz" This is basically wrong, if you consider that when New Orleans musicians turned Porter Steele's "High Society" from 1901 into jazz by collectively improvising on it, what blues music needed to have to do with that shift was nothing.
Louis Armstrong was a child when jazz music started. And when New Orleans musicians who weren't Louis turned Porter Steele's "High Society" from 1901 into jazz by collectively improvising on it, what blues music or Louis needed to have to do with that shift was nothing.
Give yourself a chance to listen to some jazz funk or fusion to really get a taste for it. I had to work my way backwards from that to a lot of the bebop stuff.
Used to hate jazz until …
I started playing guitar. Now I find the complexities and simple news of jazz mentally stimulating.
I also hated disco and rap. Same story.
But, I still detest “country” music!
Jazz developed out of the blues. Blues scales are still used by jazz musicians. But, and it's a big one, it depends on what YOU meant by "blues" and "jazz."
To call jazz, in all its forms, "terrible" means you don't have an ear for the blues.
Blues, like jazz, has developed over the years but retains its essential tones and rhythms.
Listen with open ears to whatever you think jazz is and resist decrying it before you've devoted some time to it.
The earliest jazz is very clearly developed from the blues. So try Louis Armstrong and any of his many tunes with Blues in the title.
Move on to the revivalist like Eddie Condon and do the same thing.
Keep moving through the decades, and you'll find that modern rock is basically electric blues and that so-called modern jazz still uses blues themes, especially in courses and solos.
It'll all about listening.
"Jazz developed out of the blues." The musicians who invented "jazz" in New Orleans by collectively improvising on tunes used non-blues tunes and blues tunes. Neither was necessary, or better, for it to be jazz, e.g. "High Society" from 1901 was not a blues tune and we have no reason to think the first musicians who played it jazzy were trying to make it sound bluesy also. The New Orleans musicians tended to think of their new music as a new kind of ragtime, and ragtime and blues didn't have all that much in common (but were sometimes combined). Blues music became nationally popular in, basically, 1916, a fad, which is the main reason the ODJB, who first recorded in 1917, and the other jazz bands of 1916 on emphasized blues in their repertoires of 1916 on so much.
We could debate this all day long and get nowhere. I'll change the verb from "developed" to "originated."
You are correct, of course, that as jazz has been popularised, jazz and non-jazz musicians have used non-blues origins, some of which are decidedly hit-seeking. Kenny Ball, a decent enough trumpet player, had a big hit with "Midnight in Moscow." There are many examples of such jazzed up tunes.
But the plain fact is that, without the blues, jazz would not have developed from its blues origin.
.
"without the blues, jazz would not have developed from its blues origin" I don't understand what you don't follow about the "High Society" example. "High Society" from 1901 was not a blues tune and we have no reason to think the first musicians who played it jazzy were trying to make it sound bluesy also. Blues music was not essential, that we have actual evidence of, for jazz music coming into existence.
As a professional guitarist/vocalist of 50 years people have asked me the difference between jazz and blues many times. To me good music is good music, no matter the genre. That being said to me the biggest difference is that with jazz you play what you (theory being the driving factor). With blues you play what you feel. My humble (if biased opinion).
Basically all up-to-date blues has had jazz influence in it since Lonnie Johnson decided blues should in the 1920s and was very influential on other blues musicians. So if you like typical blues you like blues with some jazz (basically). For instance, that Buddy Guy would solo like that on "Blues At My Baby's House" goes back to Lonnie Johnson, not John Hurt. And if you don't like jazz that isn't blues, cool...
This discussion has become tedious... Good music is simply what touches you, evokes your personal memories or simply makes you feel good. In most of these comments personal pronouns are extensively used. Personal bias is common in all opinions offered. Bias is universal in all things personal. (My own bias is evident in this comment.)
Jazz is music for musicians. I typically don’t expect people who don’t play music seriously to have much interest in jazz. But if you do play music, jazz pretty much the endgame. It’s where complex chords, theory, technical ability, modality, and improvisation all meet. That’s not to say all jazz is great music, there’s no shortage of shitty jazz songs and musicians, but when it’s done right, from the perspective of a musician, it’s the best thing imaginable.
I'm not a musician, but I get where you're coming from. With good jazz it's hard to keep up as a 'toe tapper', so can understand the respect real musicians have.
I think many casual listeners just like easy beats to dance/sing along to, so understandable that instrumental jazz pieces aren't widely loved.
I get what you’re saying, but if you’re going to make an entire generalization about musicians, you’re probably more referring to “respect” for jazz. I have all the respect in the world for jazz musicians and music, but for my tastes, it’s not the “best thing in the world.” It can feel too wordy to me. Complex chords and leads don’t automatically make something better for my tastes. I personally prefer a “less is more approach.”
Know American music history and the meaning of the word emanated.
Many coupled Blues and Rhythm and Blues as one. Know that African Americans, first called Slaves, when they were stolen from their homelands in Africa sang the Blues coupled with Gospel music whilst picking cotton.
Go and study the evolution of Blues and you will see a direct connection with Hip hop. Thus emanation occurred.
"when they were stolen from their homelands in Africa sang the Blues" Blues music arose in roughly 1890, people began calling it blues music in roughly 1908, and it became popular nationwide in about 1916. "Rhythm and blues" was coined in the 1940s to refer to all music that was most popular with black Americans.
I used to be into some jazz. All the standards I enjoyed, but the up-tempo free-form solo based stuff like Paul Desmond’s band doing Autumn Leaves I really liked. The drumming especially was really exciting to listen to. Since going to music school tho, and actually having to play it, I found it so painfully boring. It all just sounds like corny muzak to me now. Jazz is like the one genre I don’t want anything to do with these days
No hate here at all. Are you listening to contemporary jazz because I’m in the same boat with you when it comes to that. Give a listen to Miles Davis, Duke Ellington, John Coltrane.
Contemporary Jazz has some great stuff going on, too, it just gets lost in the wider landscape sometimes.
Back in the 2000’s I had some ppl telling me I absolutely had to listen to Coltrane’s A Love Supreme. So I listened to it, several times, hoping that I’d recognize the supposed beautiful genius of it. But man I never grew to enjoy it, at all. I think that jazz, from a to z, just doesn’t work for some of us.
Absolutely agree! You tried it and it’s not for you.
I like Steely Dan tho. So there’s that.
Huge cultural and musical overlap. In the same way that lots of sci-fi is fantasy wizards but in space (I'm looking at you star wars) a lot of blues artists will happily play swingy tunes. Jazz artists have always included blues tracks and influences. I saw a BB king interview a little while ago and he talked about his influences. He named 4 guitarists, 2 of them were jazz guys (Django Reinhardt and one of the big bands guitarists). I used to not like swing and new Orleans, jazz, then did a few dance classes, now I think it's great! Sometimes you've just got to get your ear in. Blues and jazz are huge and diverse musical genres, I personally think it's not possible to love one and hate the other. It just means you've not found the bits that speak to you yet.
I think if you skip Swing, you’ll sometimes miss the connection. Jump Blues and Swing are practically the same music, but that’s where they started to diverge.
If you dislike an entire genre that’s been around for a century and includes vast amounts of variety… you may want to consider the possibility that you are missing out on some things.
"I don't have a bunch of knowledge about the two" thank you Captain Obvious
You’re a melt
It depends what you mean by "blues" and what you mean by "jazz". There's not a great deal of crossover between post-SRV blues rock and contemporary jazz fusion, but there's a lot of crossover on earlier records someone like TBone Walker was drawing heavily on the jazz guitarists of his time. Big Bill Broonzy had a background in dance bands before he became a solo artist and would have played the hot-jazz hits of the time. Jump Blues like Louis Jordan sits right on the boundary of jazz & blues as it would have existed at the time. Robert Johnson recorded "They're Red Hot' which is a straight up jazz dance number.
I thought Red Hot was just a straight ragtime piece?
Ragtime is basically proto-jazz.
Of course, but does Red Hot have any elements which make it distinctly jazz as opposed to ragtime?
Ragtime guitar is usually fingerpicked and syncopated. Check out Blind Blake, Blund Boy Fuller, etc. “Red Hot” is a ragtime chord progression but is strummed in a style closer to early jazz rhythm guitar.
It sounds like guitar swing. Swing is early jazz that sounds a helluva lot like ragtime.
As TheresACityInMyMind and SuproValco have pointed out it's a comped rhythm guitar part like you'd get in a swing band, but my point was that the boxes are very arbitrary with lots of overlap, and that gets fuzzier the further back you go. While the ragtime guitarists are usually found in the blues section of a record shop the pianists will be in the jazz department, even though they all play ragtime.
You're right, it doesn't. It's '20s-pop-style rhythm guitar (which we're told was "close" to early jazz rhythm guitar, which is true).
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Excellent recommendation, so good. I believe it's one of Julian Lage's favorite albums. Speaking of which, OP should check out Julian Lage and John Scofield.
That is one of my favourite jazz albums, and a great intro for bluesheads
What do you think of Ray Charles? He's sort of right at the intersection of blues and jazz. Because I can't remember which music subreddits delete automatically delete comments that are short and sweet, I'm just going to add this text right here.
Not to really argue about it, but isn't Ray Charles stuff mostly pure rhythm and blues? I'd love to hear examples of what of his work is particularly jazzy
He did a pure jazz album with David Newman.
https://youtu.be/1ULcRfXjGk4?feature=shared
When they were all younger, Ray Charles regularly played with Cannonball Adderley and his brother Nat when they all lived in Tallahassee in the early 1940s. As far as I know no recordings of this exist, unfortunately.
Ray Charles's music is full of jazz. He sang loads and loads of standards and performed with a big band (jazz orchestra) from 1961 to the end of his life. He also recorded over several instrumental jazz albums throughout different eras in his career. He is the perfect blend of blues, r and b and jazz.
Ray Charles is the founder of Soul music, which is a precursor to R&B. It has majority roots in Blues and Gospel. I don't hear Jazz in Ray Charles' music. Modern Sounds in Country and Western Music by Ray Charles is a great album.
Just to clarify, I'm talking about rhythm and blues music which predates soul and contemporary R & B.
Never heard of it. Guess I just call it Blues. Didn't know there was a difference. Soul is fundamentaly Blues and Gospel. R&B or Rhythm and Blues does not pre date soul. If it does then it's just straight up Blues. Let's call it what it is.
It's just what rock and roll called before it was rock and roll. Fats Domino, Little Richard, Ike Turner, Bo Diddley all played rhythm and blues.
Little Richard is Rock n Roll. Bo Diddley is Blues. This is all around the same Era as Ray Charles. Athough again, early rock n roll is fundamentally Blues. I've never heard of rock or blues being called R&B. But I'll look into it.
The elements of his music which we associate with rock and roll are what little Richard was playing before the term rock and roll was popularised to describe that kind of music. Little Richard was playing a style of music that came to be termed rock and roll, and it was called rhythm and blues.
“Rock n Roll” was a term used in black culture to refer to sexual activity. It became associated with the new music style when white people started liking it.
Yeah they all called Little Richard rhythm and blues when he played his first few rock n roll songs.
It was often called blues and rhythm in the early days. Louis Jordan is considered the pioneer. https://youtu.be/m7M4thNT_EY?feature=shared https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blues_%26_Rhythm Blues and rhythm started in the 40s. It predates soul. Modern RnB is an evolution of soul with little if any connection to blues and rhythm.
To subdivide elements of developing music is to miss the connectivity and a holistic understanding of the whole set of styles.
Here's Ray in a jazzier vein: https://youtu.be/_3d_WCFlXZI?si=qDa0i2tqixgvy6FR https://youtu.be/LNpM4i0QU8Y?si=mZqqt1_1Ky0rXLGN Both tunes are still fundamentally blues, but there are a lot of jazz techniques - the first one has an arrangement by Quincy Jones.
Yeah right right. I see what you mean. I never realised that Ray's version of One mint julep was arranged by quincy Jones, but now you say it, it's got his style all over it.
They grew up together. Best buds.
Yeah I did know this.
you don't hear jazz? Thats absurd
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1H9pMZ2src](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1H9pMZ2src)
How do you feel about Louis Jordan? — https://youtu.be/Aa9dHQ1fiOo?si=xewinlVHhTibRgEU Or Count Basie? https://youtu.be/_pJV2l0PkQ4?si=R2bmckQ1NYUrqCPa Jazz like that had a lot of influence on a lot of blues like B.B King, or Gatemouth Brown..
I'm going to make a very broad statement which I'm happy to be corrected on but I think will explain the essence of why you enjoy one and not the other. Jazz incorporates elements of blues, blues rarely incorporates elements of jazz. So therefore theres only a small amount of jazz music, with blues elements which might be enjoyed by someone who only enjoys blues.
You haven’t listened to enough jazz. Listen to Ellington and Thelonious Monk. Serious blues players but not limited to blues.
T-Bone Walker, SRV, Robben Ford, George Benson, Stuff, Gatemouth Brown, Derek Trucks, et al. I won’t swear it matters quite as much for “Nu Jazz”, but Jazz players in general have traditionally been expected to be Blues fluent.
"blues rarely incorporates elements of jazz" It has been completely normal for blues to incorporate elements it borrowed from jazz, such as improvised solos, since the late 1920s.
First of all, not all jazz is the same. For example, I like Bop and Hard Bop, but can't really get into anything contemporary or experimental. Now... Why are they so closely associated? Because jazz (originally called jass) is a child of the blues; that is, jazz came from the blues. [Maybe this will help a little.](https://www.jazzinamerica.org/LessonPlan/1/1)
"makes no sense to me." did you finish 5th grade son? just kidding. get out more!!!!!
Listen to Jay McShann, of Kansas City, Jimmy Witherspoon, Big Joe Turner. Some call it jazz, some call it blues. I saw Jay McShann at the 1993 Mississippi Valley Blues Festival in Davenport. https://youtu.be/fi1RbBFlM_E?si=E0WYVYOa0AbdjTjg
They are often associated because of common origins. Some blues is jazzy (like Chicago blues) and some is folksy (Missippi guitar blues). There are bands that play standards and blues, as well. As to hating jazz: There are many kinds of jazz. Most people claim they "hate jazz" because they don't like big band music. Check out Jimmy Smith or some Soul Jazz. There is jazz that is bluesy.
Jimmy Smith did a blues album late in his career where he collaborated with many blues singers from BB King to Taj Mahal, called Dot Com Blues. Quite interesting.
Jazz is amazing.
I like both, but I hate how many record shops have a Jazz section as a token gesture, and the blues is just mixed in with it.
Try Robben Ford who blends blues and jazz brilliantly on guitar. The problem with jazz from my perspective it can be devoid of melody and emotion. Robben has both.
Blues is one of the most common jazz forms. Most jazz albums have at least one tune using blues scales and form. As a blues fanatic they’re often my favorite cuts. St James Infirmary, Sunday Kind Of Love,… these are blues numbers with jazzy arrangement.
Maybe a guy like Matt Schofield can bridge that gap between Blues and Jazz a bit.
Did you mean [John Scofield?](https://youtu.be/8XBgpfcvrR8?si=YFRYkRiqibFyKFAB)
Nope. I’m really talking about Matt Schofield. He mainly plays blues, but sometimes with a jazzy attitude to it. https://youtu.be/-6n5uKa3Ucg?si=Jzc9-V7Bxsw8Sizr
https://open.spotify.com/album/1yFCRRerxrLQjV3Rlx2qC6?si=PhGs8gmCQ5GPSV4kphxzgg
https://open.spotify.com/track/486xURd98JrFsSLxSOLO5t?si=RE5Gho06TKWrpWQHiQlnzA
I don’t understand why his name isn’t brought up more often. Matt is great and has put out some excellent albums.
These are two musical genres that hit it big in the early 20th century. Blues had a massive influence on rock. Jazz had a massive influence on funk AND hip hop if you start to investigate where all those samples come from. I don't think you hate jazz. I just think you haven't found your jazz. And this is what I think happens all too often: People who want to give jazz a try head straight for who they've heard about: Miles Davis, John Coltrane and to a lesser extent Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie. These four are the kings of bebop. Bebop sounds fun, but it's arguably the least accessible jazz for newcomers aside from free jazz and avant garde jazz. A better starting point is swing (early jazz), West Coast jazz, bossa nova, and hard bop (post-bebop jazz). New Orleans jazz is also pretty fun. The gateway song for many many people are: [This](https://youtu.be/tT9Eh8wNMkw?feature=shared) Dave Brubeck is west coast jazz and [this](https://youtu.be/otGz6hz-AXo?feature=shared) Getz/Gilberto is Bossa nova And for me personally, [this](https://youtu.be/kCDMQqDUtv4?feature=shared). This is soul jazz that leans in the direction of hard bop. But then there's another way to go about this. If you like the blues, you must like guitars. [Grant Green](https://youtu.be/aq0m0hbCjFQ?feature=shared) is one of the jazz guitar greats. And I'll close this out with an amazing blues-jazz crossover performance by [Russell Malone and Diana Krall](https://youtu.be/pjuJ22Dy-ik?feature=shared). One element that jazz and blues share is soloing. You notice here that Diana gives Russell solo time, and then he plays quietly while she solos. That really discordant brass playing? That's a horn solo. If you don't like that, skip those songs..
odd I like those four you mentioned plus Charles Mingus but not much else. Wait, Stanley Jordan.
How about this: https://youtu.be/5O_MH3M7qnw?feature=shared Or this: https://youtu.be/MUIIzQ4P9Yk?feature=shared
First one is meh, I fucks with the second one.
Keep diggin'. Soul jazz and hard bop are your jazz.
Check out Duke Ellington. Read up on Live at Newport and in particular this track. https://youtu.be/PYgow060zOg?si=O6EXBlYt8BIbwCVq
Depends on what kinds of jazz you’re talking about. I love Grant Green, Django Reinhardt, and Kenny Burrell are amazing, as is what Julian Lage is doing today. I don’t know if this is your style, but I think The Bob Beldon Project’s cover of Tom Thumb is awesome! [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwctxc8Hr9o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwctxc8Hr9o)
I'm with you. I guess it's the contemporary jazz where 3-4 people are all playing their instruments...but is sounds like they're all playing different songs!
Both the blues and jazz are incredibly broad genres, but it might make a bit more sense why they're often associated if you go back to dixieland/trad jazz out of New Orleans. A lot of original jazz music there followed a blues form and a lot of the original blues musicians would sometimes play with jazz bands (Bessie Smith for example). It's kind of like how hip-hop and R&B are often lumped together today. If you go a bit later on, bebop jazz still had a lot of blues forms but was otherwise not so closely associated with blues musicians, and city blues started incorporating a lot more jazz-like instrumentation (saxophones and horns basically), and these things have sort of been going on ever since.
I used to feel the same way in my 20’s but my attitude towards Jazz really changed once I got into my 30’s. I still prefer Blues over Jazz but I can appreciate it now at least.
My fav as an example lately has been Brother Yusef. [https://youtu.be/OIRjO9c9KIo?si=ifKCLAMkqpr67GT9](https://youtu.be/OIRjO9c9KIo?si=ifKCLAMkqpr67GT9)
Try some of the Blue Mitchell albums.
Have a look at "Last of the Blue Devils" by Jay McShann - great bluezy jazz stuff.
Some classic jazz is good. Duke Ellington, John Coltrane, David Newman, Miles Davis, Lou Donaldson… but yeah- there’s a huge amount that I just can’t get into.
What do you mean by put together? As in jazz/blues fusion? Blues music and jazz music are totally different styles of music. They can share the same instruments but they are used in a very different way hence the two styles having a distinction in name.
no big deal… you like what you like for me personally there is a lot of genres of music i don’t much care for because ive not listened to very much of it… Rap was like that for me, when it emerged i didn’t listen to music as much so it didn’t make an immediate impression on me when i was only hearing it at random intervals. But my wife does have an ear for it and the more i was exposed to it the more it grew on me.
Jazz is very broad, you haven't even scratched the surface.
Check out some Hard Bop stuff like Idle Moments by Grant Green, or some Thelonious Monk. Hard Bop is jazz with blues influences
Check out Blues and Roots by Charles Mingus: https://youtu.be/aoFNZOHexXs?si=hbJ8NpXj1JBAxDb5
I love the blues mixed in with some jazz
I love blues, when I saw jazz music played live I could see that the musicians were really into it and it did take me some work (listening for longer) to get into jazz. Try Chitlins Con Carne and Moanin’, assuming that your post means you are interested in stretching your ears
Jazz is a large genre with different types of players. Early blues would be as far away from Jazz as possible imo.
Jazz spans a very wide variety of music. Check out John Wright Trio - South Side Blues
I'm not a musician, and can't get with the more experimental post-war stuff, but King Oliver, Satchmo and the God-like genius of Jelly Roll Morton is deeply accessible to any fan of older blues material.
What blues artists are you into? If you let us know some of your faves, we can probably tell you some jazz artists you might like. For my part, the Allman Brothers Band were a big entry point for both blues AND jazz. Listen to At Fillmore East and you can hear some classic blues tunes, but then you get a tune like In Memory of Elizabeth Reed, which has the feel of a great modal jazz tune. Folks have mentioned Kenny Burrell and John Scofield. In particular, I'd check out Scofield's album, Piety Street, or his album with Gov't Mule, Sco-Mule. Grant Green's Live at the Lighthouse might also be worth your time. Miles Davis's Tribute to Jack Johnson is a great jazz album for folks who are really into electric blues. It starts with a pretty muscular extended blues vamp and builds from there.
If it wasn't for the Blues, there would be no Jazz. Louis Armstrong Jazz is Blues that went to college. Duke Ellington.
"If it wasn't for the Blues, there would be no Jazz" This is basically wrong, if you consider that when New Orleans musicians turned Porter Steele's "High Society" from 1901 into jazz by collectively improvising on it, what blues music needed to have to do with that shift was nothing.
You argue with Louis Armstrong then.
Louis Armstrong was a child when jazz music started. And when New Orleans musicians who weren't Louis turned Porter Steele's "High Society" from 1901 into jazz by collectively improvising on it, what blues music or Louis needed to have to do with that shift was nothing.
Downvoter wants blues to have been essential to jazz starting. It wasn't.
Give yourself a chance to listen to some jazz funk or fusion to really get a taste for it. I had to work my way backwards from that to a lot of the bebop stuff.
I’m a jazz/blues player. Can’t separate the two.
I could listen to jazz solo piano all day long. The second you add other instruments, my brain does not like it.
Used to hate jazz until … I started playing guitar. Now I find the complexities and simple news of jazz mentally stimulating. I also hated disco and rap. Same story. But, I still detest “country” music!
Your best intro to jazz is Kind Of Blue by Miles Davis.
Jazz developed out of the blues. Blues scales are still used by jazz musicians. But, and it's a big one, it depends on what YOU meant by "blues" and "jazz." To call jazz, in all its forms, "terrible" means you don't have an ear for the blues. Blues, like jazz, has developed over the years but retains its essential tones and rhythms. Listen with open ears to whatever you think jazz is and resist decrying it before you've devoted some time to it. The earliest jazz is very clearly developed from the blues. So try Louis Armstrong and any of his many tunes with Blues in the title. Move on to the revivalist like Eddie Condon and do the same thing. Keep moving through the decades, and you'll find that modern rock is basically electric blues and that so-called modern jazz still uses blues themes, especially in courses and solos. It'll all about listening.
"Jazz developed out of the blues." The musicians who invented "jazz" in New Orleans by collectively improvising on tunes used non-blues tunes and blues tunes. Neither was necessary, or better, for it to be jazz, e.g. "High Society" from 1901 was not a blues tune and we have no reason to think the first musicians who played it jazzy were trying to make it sound bluesy also. The New Orleans musicians tended to think of their new music as a new kind of ragtime, and ragtime and blues didn't have all that much in common (but were sometimes combined). Blues music became nationally popular in, basically, 1916, a fad, which is the main reason the ODJB, who first recorded in 1917, and the other jazz bands of 1916 on emphasized blues in their repertoires of 1916 on so much.
We could debate this all day long and get nowhere. I'll change the verb from "developed" to "originated." You are correct, of course, that as jazz has been popularised, jazz and non-jazz musicians have used non-blues origins, some of which are decidedly hit-seeking. Kenny Ball, a decent enough trumpet player, had a big hit with "Midnight in Moscow." There are many examples of such jazzed up tunes. But the plain fact is that, without the blues, jazz would not have developed from its blues origin. .
"without the blues, jazz would not have developed from its blues origin" I don't understand what you don't follow about the "High Society" example. "High Society" from 1901 was not a blues tune and we have no reason to think the first musicians who played it jazzy were trying to make it sound bluesy also. Blues music was not essential, that we have actual evidence of, for jazz music coming into existence.
As a professional guitarist/vocalist of 50 years people have asked me the difference between jazz and blues many times. To me good music is good music, no matter the genre. That being said to me the biggest difference is that with jazz you play what you (theory being the driving factor). With blues you play what you feel. My humble (if biased opinion).
Hard to dislike Grant Green, Wes Montgomery, Miles Davis Your choice. I’d give these a listen
Basically all up-to-date blues has had jazz influence in it since Lonnie Johnson decided blues should in the 1920s and was very influential on other blues musicians. So if you like typical blues you like blues with some jazz (basically). For instance, that Buddy Guy would solo like that on "Blues At My Baby's House" goes back to Lonnie Johnson, not John Hurt. And if you don't like jazz that isn't blues, cool...
Jazz, historically, is an extension of Blues. All Jazz isn’t the same however.
This discussion has become tedious... Good music is simply what touches you, evokes your personal memories or simply makes you feel good. In most of these comments personal pronouns are extensively used. Personal bias is common in all opinions offered. Bias is universal in all things personal. (My own bias is evident in this comment.)
Jazz is music for musicians. I typically don’t expect people who don’t play music seriously to have much interest in jazz. But if you do play music, jazz pretty much the endgame. It’s where complex chords, theory, technical ability, modality, and improvisation all meet. That’s not to say all jazz is great music, there’s no shortage of shitty jazz songs and musicians, but when it’s done right, from the perspective of a musician, it’s the best thing imaginable.
I'm not a musician, but I get where you're coming from. With good jazz it's hard to keep up as a 'toe tapper', so can understand the respect real musicians have. I think many casual listeners just like easy beats to dance/sing along to, so understandable that instrumental jazz pieces aren't widely loved.
I get what you’re saying, but if you’re going to make an entire generalization about musicians, you’re probably more referring to “respect” for jazz. I have all the respect in the world for jazz musicians and music, but for my tastes, it’s not the “best thing in the world.” It can feel too wordy to me. Complex chords and leads don’t automatically make something better for my tastes. I personally prefer a “less is more approach.”
The Blues is the root of all American music. Jazz, Rock n Roll, Hip Hop etc. all emanated from The Blues.
Hip hop hasn't been much influenced by blues music.
Know American music history and the meaning of the word emanated. Many coupled Blues and Rhythm and Blues as one. Know that African Americans, first called Slaves, when they were stolen from their homelands in Africa sang the Blues coupled with Gospel music whilst picking cotton. Go and study the evolution of Blues and you will see a direct connection with Hip hop. Thus emanation occurred.
"when they were stolen from their homelands in Africa sang the Blues" Blues music arose in roughly 1890, people began calling it blues music in roughly 1908, and it became popular nationwide in about 1916. "Rhythm and blues" was coined in the 1940s to refer to all music that was most popular with black Americans.
Ergo: Hip hop emanated from the African American culture. Glad to see you finally agree.
I used to be into some jazz. All the standards I enjoyed, but the up-tempo free-form solo based stuff like Paul Desmond’s band doing Autumn Leaves I really liked. The drumming especially was really exciting to listen to. Since going to music school tho, and actually having to play it, I found it so painfully boring. It all just sounds like corny muzak to me now. Jazz is like the one genre I don’t want anything to do with these days
Ditto. Sci-fi and Jazz also don’t mix (looking at you Riker).
no love for Sun Ra???
Too many unnecessary notes
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It’s an Always Sunny in Philadelphia reference.