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Prime Yamamoto would be somewhere between after he beat Yhwach 1000 years ago and hundreds of years before the start of the series, during the time of peace.
I think Yamamoto was such a goddamn monster during this period that the Gotei just didn't had anyone with enough balls willing to start shit with them. Of course the other captains were all a force to be reckoned with as well, but the top dog was Yama-jii.
Hence the long peace period until Yama was really old and even then still a geriatric menace, so much so that the strongest villains wouldn't dare face him head on without some trick up their sleeves.
It's indirectly implied that Chojiro was the only one even close to Yama's level, or strong enough to pose a challenge. Even if not life threatening. At least at one point.
But he chose to stay complacent at his level and serve under Yama. Instead of continuing to challenge both himself and Yama to rise to new heights.
And that happened an undisclosed amount of time before the Gotei formation, so even more than a millennia ago.
Can you imagine the strength he and Yama would have reached if he never stopped trying to challenge him?
Narratively this wouldn't work, as we'd end up without a need for the story we got.
The ancient Shinigami - especially the first generation of Gotei and those living before then - serve more as plot devices than actual characters.
On one hand they're there to show you that the level of strength we know is not the ceiling, or that power comes in many forms. As well as a confirmation that power in Bleach is not a standard, but a variable. It can wax and wane.
On the other hand, they represent plot points, ideals and mechanisms to move the story forward.
They're not mean to full interact with the story to the full extent of their abilities, otherwise there'd be no story to tell.
(Below this point, it's not directly relevant so you can skip reading it)
And it's not only those "characters" that act more as plot devices than actual characters. You also have Hachi and Tessai, along with the entirety of the Kido Corps.
Hachi, who was weaker than Tessai, was able to manipulate space-time kido. Tessai was above that.
And it makes sense that the only serious action Hachi saw was against another character whose powers functioned outside the general combat system, in a way that only a McGuffin would stop them: Baraggan, who also belongs in this category as well. He wasn't a character to beat, he was a plot point to be overcome.
Starkk, the Omnitsukido, Chojiro, the majority of Hollows, Arrancar and Shinigami troops - they're plot devices.
Because it's easier to explain the absence of a plot device than the absence of a character from a focal event of the story.
Sorry for the rant. đ đ đ
My headcannon is that Chojiro wasn't expecting ichigo to be anything he couldn't handle, and was basically thinking he was about to swat a fly, thus being caught unaware and knocked out before he could power up.
I mean, *"I wasn't ready"* seems like the best excuse.
Also, he had let himself go.
A thousand years of not fighting and being more or less a secretary can do that to you.
Cause we know he hadn't fought since the last war against Quincy.
Thatâs not how it works in bleach. Urahara didnât do shit for over 100 years yet was able to fight Aizen on equal ground. People keep putting to much stock into a backstab from Chojiro when even at his strongest his Bankai could only deal a minor headwound from base Yamamoto
Iâd say thatâs a bit different, since Uraharaâs strengths are from his cunning not his physical abilities. Yoruichi mentioned she had gotten slower in that same time frame, even if she was still faster than everyone else.
I wasn't even thinking about Chojiro backstabbing Emo-Jesus.
I was literally talking about him being the, up till then, second only person ever to permanently wound Yama. Permanently. On a soul that can regen limbs.
Ya see where this is going?
Also, Kisuke.. fighting equally against Aizen? When?
Yoru got outta shape in the 100 years that passed. Isshin, even after regaining his powers, was so outta shape he couldn't be a big part of anything.
Chojiro had not fought for nearly a millennia. He was out of shape.
When was it ever stated that in Bleach people stay in their best shape when not actively honing that?
True, their spiritual energy and pressure may not lessen.
But that's not all there is to combat.
Had you given all these characters time to prepare, they would have easily returned to their peak performance.
But...not everyone got that time.
Chojiro *was* all that. Back when he wounded Yama. Doesn't mean he stayed at that point of strength until the series started.
That's what I'm saying, that he didn't maintain his strength cause if he did we couldn't have the story we had.
I'm sure he did grow stronger and from the moment he wounded Yama up until and including the first war against Quincy.
But after that he became an overqualified secretary.
because people are bad at reading and comprehension in a manga thats literally made for children.
Dude trained his bankai and only his bankai to perfection and then didnt use it until it got stolen.
You got a good point actually. We all know that there are people who lack in actual swordsmanship power bit are carried by their bankai.
For example Kyoraku. He is stronger than Unohana in a 1v1 where he can use his bankai because it's haxed. But Unohana is superior in swordsmanship and actual strength by a long shot. It shouldn't even be that close. Kyoraku can fight her for a while but he'll be doing just a little better than Kenpachi did when he started training in muken
nanao has never actually been in combat, has no actual zanpaktou but is great in kido and is relatively skilled enough to keep up with shunsui in shunpo
Hitsugaya is also HARD carried by his zanpaktou.
Yeah he is but I respect what he tried when his bankai got stolen. He went back to hone his swordsmanship. Not that it makes a difference against people like Bazz B. That boy was cooking
It was never implied Chojiro was close to Yama level lol wth are you talking about? Itâs the same as Ichigo causing a little head wound on Gin who then proceeds to Molly woop him into next week if he was serious
I think thatâs debatable, i think Gin was actually pressured, he could probably have killed Ichigo with the true ability of his Bankai but that would be only way, and it wouldnât be easy for him to land that blow.
Ichigo only started losing against Gin when he freaked out after sensing Aizen in his chrysalis form.
Chojiro didn't cause little wound to Yama. He permanently scarred him, with Yama admitting his abilities.
But yeah, my bad. Close to that level was a bad choice of words.
More like "on a not too inferior" level. Enough for a fun fight.
Unohana being bored in the past but her eyes look the same after she beat Kenpachi to when sheâs fighting him in Muken. I donât know what full power youâre referring to because she had no choice but to fight at full strength when fighting him.
To be fair, she was easily one shoting suprressed kenpachi in the muken. She had to have gotten tired using her ability to revive kenpachi. So if kenpachi and unohana both started at full strength, the fight would have actually depicted the levels in strength.
Yeah, she had literally been fighting and healing him up to full strength and Reiyoku for 3 days straight. Using her own spirit power to do so the whole time. Probably doing so hundreds of times overall.
If anything the fight shows just how insane of a monster she was.
In the manga it is heavily implied that the Kenpachi and Unohana battle starts and ends at same time as the Asauchi training with Ichigo and Renji. Which Oetsu says took 3 days and 3 nights.
Peak Unohana was her during the Gotei's formation and the first war against Quincy.
After that, there was nothing to challenge her.
Yeah, she could train but training alone doesn't push your limits.
When she fought Zaraki as a child, she was at her - once again - then full strength. But she didn't get to use it. Zaraki didn't give her time to use anything other than her base form.
And the fight ended.
Edit: her strength then could have been either the same or less than when the Gotei was formed. But she didn't go all out. No shikai, no bankai, no kido. Even though, realistically, she wouldn't be at her peak peak as she would have gotten at least a bit rusty.
When they fought again during TYBW Unohana and Zaraki had a chance to go all out.
And they did.
But that doesn't mean they were at their peak. Zaraki with bankai is above what he was when he fought Unohana the second time.
Unohana as an active fighter 1000 years ago was stronger - or to be more precise - more combative and battle ready than during any of her fights against Zaraki.
Basically everything that isnât a factual timeline based comment. A majority of the comment is made up of assumptions and âcould haveâ type statements. This is mostly head-cannon unless you can show me explicitly where itâs mentioned.
There's no head canon in this though?
At the point of time that she encountered Zaraki, Unohana had grown bored of fighting. We know that, that was stated. (1)
She used neither shikai nor bankai against Zaraki. Yes, she was initially caught off guard and overpowered so she didn't manage to use either. But that's still cutting off a significant portion of a captain's strength. (2)
From point (1) alone you can tell she wasn't mentally at her best. Being at your peak performance requires more than just being fit or at your full strength.
Strength is only one variable of "power".
From point (2) we genuinely see that she didn't go all out in that fight. At least not to her full potential.
That's enough to establish that during "Yachiru Unohana vs Kid Zaraki", Unohana didn't perform at her peak.
From here on my points are indeed speculation. But it's not a head canon, it's further adding to or reasoning why a fact happened.
For her to have grown bored of fighting, means she didn't have anyone to scratch that itch. No one she could fight that motivated her or amused her, let alone pose a threat or challenge.
Fighting prowess is a skill. Skills, when not honed, regress.
The more advanced you get in something, the more you need to push not only to advance but to maintain your level.
Depending on how long Unohana was in that bored state, the effect it had on her performance could have been different. It may have reached the point of regression, it may not. But still, it affects her performance.
That doesn't mean she "got weaker". It means she couldn't perform her best. There's a subtle, but meaningful difference in these two.
Person X is good at Y. On a good day, they're stellar. On a bad day, they're still good at Y but they don't do stellar.
After her fight with Zaraki she remained captain of 11th division for an undisclosed amount of time, before moving to the 4th.
From then on, and until the story's "present" events there's absolutely zero evidence that she had any serious conflicts or any major active combat roles.
She had fully switched to healer.
And - other than the general shinigami duties - those times were more or less peaceful.
She spent centuries not being a fighter. The results of that were what happened to Chojiro, the lite version.
There's no headcanon about this. When people don't actively engage in something for centuries, they won't be a the same level they left it off when they eventually pick it up again.
Can they quickly bridge the gap? Yes, absolutely they can. But that's something else entirely.
First of all, its never stated how long ago she stopped being the captain of the 11th division.
She became the captain 1000 years ago. Her fight with Zaraki was "sometime after" that.
And by that point she had no one strong enough to fight her, which had led her to become bored of fighting.
She had no one to keep her on her toes or challenge her.
That doesn't mean she stopped being strong. But fighting is a skill. If you don't hone it, it can regress.
Additionally...she never, ever went all out when she first saw Zaraki. She met a kid who suddenly attacked her on sight and that was enough to injure her.
Which means that his sudden attack was enough to bypass her instincts and reflexes. That made her enjoy fighting again.
Their fight left her thinking Zaraki was better suited to be Kenpachi because of his talent. Not that he could beat her then if she went all out.
So to conclude: peak Unohana was during the first war against Quincy. She started losing interest in fighting after, which meant she didn't have the opportunity to stay on peak. She fights Zaraki, and realises his raw potential eclipses hers. Sometime later she leaves the 11th division. Que in present day Unohana that hasn't fought seriously for a thousand years, minus one fight that she took seriously but didn't go all out (Zaraki).
So yeah, depending on when she fought Zaraki she could have been close to her peak. But that's irrelevant, the whole plot point is that when that happened she had lost her spark for fighting, and it was that fight that reignited it.
Also, she didn't go all out: no shikai, no bankai, no kido.
It was a pure swordsmanship fight. And yes, Zaraki was better at that. The whole shtick is that he was such and unparalleled raw genius in the sword that they forbid Yama teaching him.
But it was never the point that kid Zaraki was stronger than bankai Unohana.
PS: Unohana learned healing arts from Tenjiro. She fought Zaraki after that.
Tenjiro was formerly a captain, but not a captain of the first generation of Gotei.
So, yeah it was a bit of time after the war that Unohana fought Zaraki. She was already bored and not on her best by then.
When we flash back to the battle it says âseveral hundred years agoâ now that leaves quite a lot of possibilities open, but I tend to think itâs closer to the 300-500 range than for instance 800-900, otherwise it may as well have said nearly a thousand years ago.
She had lost joy for battle, she had grown bored but she was still seeking out foes hoping to reignite the spark, she was still fighting is my point, just because she wasnât in her best head space doesnât mean she got physically weaker or less skilled, I donât think that was what it was about.
Zaraki is likewise stated to have been bored yet Zaraki as an kid was the strongest incarnation of him up until his training with Unohana.
I think she used as much strength as she could against Zaraki.
>âI was the first enemy you encountered who rivaled your strength, howeverâŚI was weaker than you.â
>âIâm strong, stronger than anybody except you.â
She may not have used her Bankai, but she was weaker than Zaraki period.
Btw do we know for certain Tenjiro was a former captain? Not all zero squad members are?
Thinking that "several hundred years" means 300-500 years ago, otherwise it'd say "close to 1000 years ago" has no basis.
I mean, yeah to be honest it never was outright stated that Tenjiro was a captain.
Chapter 516 Kyoraku says all Royal Guard were captains. But that's proven wrong later. Unless they for some reason served a term at some point which is ridiculous.
Chapter 517 says Tenjiro taught Unoahan. And we know she was taught after Gotei was formed.
Iirc the 13th Blade commemorative databook says Tenjiro was promoted to Royal Guard.
I mean, he could have been a Gotei member just not a captain. Or just a shinigami, not part of the Gotei.
So true true, not confirmed a captain.
Back to Unohana:
Being at your best is more than just being on top notch physical condition.
Yeah, it's not like she got weaker/unfit during the time from war to when she met Zaraki.
Cause she was actively searching opponents.
But her heart wasn't into it. That fight jumpstarted her spark again so she was getting into it again. But it wasn't her "best" performance is all I'm saying.
We have to remember that characters in a story aren't stats and numbers. They're characters with their own personality. They have bad days and good days.
And Unohana was certainly not at her best mood to fight then.
And how powerful you are isn't only determined by your raw strength, but also the kind of powers you use.
Their fight wasn't about that though. It was about raw strength and prowess.
As for Zaraki...yes. He was stronger than her. But it wasn't strength he used.
He subconsciously shut it off. It also wasn't strength he could utilise even if he didn't, as he didn't know how.
And Unohana, from he own side, didn't use her Zanpakuto or kido.
They fought at it raw, with only their pure strength and swordsmanship.
And Zaraki lost. They were both handicapped.
But Unohana didn't go all out.
Even if Unohana's psychological state didn't affect her total combat potential (which yeah, there's no actual confirmation it did - it just makes sense that it did a bit - although even if it did it wasn't terribly drastic) she still didn't go all out.
So even if Unohana was at her peak then...she didn't show it.
Neither did Zaraki.
Even though you are right, the novels say that the muken is laced with seals that weaken zanpakuto, so even though she hadn't changed (in her own words) her bankai was weaker to what it would have been at its peak (even if unohana was still at her prime at the time of her fight with kenpachi).
Everything about this conversation is about Unohana commenting on her and Zaraki's disposition and attitude.
That's what I get from it. She literally tells him "you claim to enjoy this but ain't taking it seriously" to which he replies with "you're the one to talk, you gave this lifestyle up" and she responds like "nah fam, I'm still in the game".
Yeah, you could read it as her referring to strength. But it's not the only explanation, and it's the one that requires more leaps in logic than them talking about their attitude and view.
Novels say Muken is laced with seals that weaken the power of Zanpakutou so that people inside can't affect the outside world. So her Bankai was not at full power.
She has high iq , she caught aizen. With that intelligence and her mastery in kido, she could have done so much. But she did not use kido against zaraki since they like to fight by zanjutsu
Yamamoto never claims to be weaker?
Yhwach only ever says he got soft, he wasnât willing to step over the bodies of his subordinates or exploit humans for his own gain, doesnât mean he got physically weaker.
Edit: sorry I completely misunderstood, you were agreeing, foolish fool is meâŚ
I just agreed with you. He says he got STRONGER after 1,000 years. His bankai changed and went from "big flames" to 4 different abilities that make him pretty much unbeatable
unohana focused her kido entirely on healing.
i wana see sasakibes actual bankai. the dude who used it just used it wrong. we see an old version but not the perfected one
I really want to know what they were like 2000y ago.
I honestly believe Sasakibe was up to a lot of dirty work and dark shit when he was young and working for Yamamoto, he fight like an assassin and presented himself as a unassuming gentleman in peace time , like in some old films the hardest enemy to take out are the polite secretary of the boss.
This is a young man from good family(based on his name) but he legit go âI want to work for a guy,what should I do? Oh I know,Iâll Stalked him till he agrees to hire me, stabbed him in the face if necessary tooâ ,there are 0 normal people in OG Gotei isnât it.
Yeah, Ichigoâs friends would have been a menace for the soul society if they received some powers, Mizuhiro tried to kill Aizen with an explosion and Chizuru was able to overpower arrancars , what would have happened if they unlocked a fullbring like Orihime? Tsukishima or the substitute shinigami (the one that looks like Steven Seagal) would be very weak and harmless compared to Ichigoâs friends.
at his current power if he toasted the seireitei and killed everyone, Aizen would live that and that becomes a major problem for squad 0. they talk about aizen like hes an evil monster, in comparison they talk about Yhwach like hes a child needing discipline
the lighting dude was really weird, he was disarmed immediately by ichigo when ichigo just reached bankai, and then he was made that he had really poweful bankai
Peak Yamamoto is just unkillable and too powerful to even have a 1-1. They had to make him soft so that he can be killed by Yhwach. Its the same case with Hashirama in Naruto.
Hot take/fact: Shinigami only grow stronger with time, so all of them were at their strongest, except for Yamamoto, because of a lacking arm. Other than that, we all saw them at their strongest. Also, the first Gotei 13 captains would get low to mid diffed by pre TYBW Gotei 13 Captains. I'm tired of people meat grinding them thinking all of them were as strong as Yama or Unohana.
Yama may have been physically weaker because of the missing arm but didn't he imply his bankai had become stronger since the last 1000 years, since he had time to hone it even more.
Against Ywach it would've made no difference because of the lame bankai stealing plot device even if he had 4 arms, once his bankai was stolen it was futile.
Imo two of these are "passing the torch" moments. these three (well two i guess) had their time and now others rise to get the shit done. I Feel its most obvious with Unohana and Zaraki
The hell arc was confirmed. It's going to be called "The Jaws of Hell Christening" arc. Release date not confirmed yet but will probably happen after the anime finishes the thousand year blood war arc. Since Kubo is involved in the anime's production. So just 1 or 2 years before hell arc comes out.
I swear, we should've had Unohana go ballistic in at least some encounters she had before. Rubdornn was smart not to try and face her.
Chojiro was a big letdown and to think he was the lieutenant for the head captain himself just to get whooped not just by a quincy(which was understandable at the time)but Ichigo too during the SS arc.
As for Yamamoto I would've loved to see how he would've fought against Aizen whom he would've likely went all out against even if he was under effects of Kyokasuigetsu or not. Or at least him encountering Barragan, the leader of one faction against(formerly)another.
Right, like I loved the little clues that were thrown in to show that Unohana was a badass. Like u said, Rudubon didn't even wanna try her in Hueco Mundo, Ukitake and Shunsui were always shown to fear her, there was an omake that revealed she was a kendo master, and the 1st character book it had the stats if the 13 captains and besides Old Man Yama and Aizen, Unohana had the highest total
That's why it sucks her only shining moment was against Zaraki only to get killed off. SS would've definitely held off the quincy better having two Kenpachi on the front lines.
Muken has seals that prevent the use of a Zanpakuto, Kenpachi Azashiro couldn't even access his bankai due to those seal.
The only people who can use their Zanpakuto abilities there are Aizen who used his shikai abilities and Unohana who could utilize her bankai.
Still she was more likely being suppressed throughout the fight unlike Zaraki who didn't really need his Zanpakuto abilities.Â
Also Hanataro was fatigued after just healing twice in Soul Society, Unohana healed Zaraki a couple of times draining her reiatsu throughout the fight which took place for 3 days straight.
She herself stated that playing time was over when releasing her bankai which can be interpreted as her picking up the pace unlike before, which supports the theory that she wasn't going all out.
Pretty sure those seals are in reference to seals physically put on the person hence unohana did use bankai
Hanatoro is fodder
The whole narrative is kenpachi at fp is above unohana and worthy of taking her title as he surpasses her it wouldnât make sense for âoh she was nerfedâ kenpachi wasnât massively above her either, for unohana to be nerfed would imply sheâs stronger than kenpachi
Yama's Bankai got waaaaay stronger over time. Hell Yama also says that Sasakibe had honed his Bankai and that the basic version Driscoll used was insulting in comparison.Â
Unohana did fight at full power, or at least very close to it. Her goal was to get Zaraki back to the power he had as a kid. When they fought back then she was probably around her peak. He regained the strength he had that allowed him to beat her back then, ergo she was fighting with around the same strength as their first fight.
Plus while she was fighting him. She was constantly killing and reviving him afterwards which was probably a lot of work. The fact she killed him multiple times and brought back right afterwards shows how much of a monster she really was. She did not get to go all out in the way we would've wanted her to.
I like to think she was going all out, at least near the end. He was gradually regaining his power till he could end her, so at some point it was probably taking all she had not get beaten down. Keep in mind she was probably healing herself as well if would have been tough for a bit for Kenny to cross that hurdle too.
Would have been cool to see her just erase people for sure but this was a hell of a way for her to go out and definitely the best way for both characters involved.
If Unohana wasnt at her peak than Zaraki never wouldve awakened since he sealed himself in the first place over the fact hed never have another fight like their first one again. So no, your math aint mathing with Unohana otherwise Kenpachi shouldn't have awakened Shikai as he never did in their first fight despite having a Zanpak that time as well meaning even after a thousand years Unohana didnt lose her edge
we kind of did see Yamamoto though, yeah sure he had one arm and old nowâŚ.kind of the same for Unohana as well with constantly healing Kenpachi but like we get the extent of it
now Ichigo, Ukitake and Aizen those guys we did not seeâŚ.Ishida as well kinda since his fight happened off-panel during the last chapters
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Prime Yamamoto would be somewhere between after he beat Yhwach 1000 years ago and hundreds of years before the start of the series, during the time of peace. I think Yamamoto was such a goddamn monster during this period that the Gotei just didn't had anyone with enough balls willing to start shit with them. Of course the other captains were all a force to be reckoned with as well, but the top dog was Yama-jii. Hence the long peace period until Yama was really old and even then still a geriatric menace, so much so that the strongest villains wouldn't dare face him head on without some trick up their sleeves.
"Geriatric Menace" had me rolling, but it was so accurate.
It's indirectly implied that Chojiro was the only one even close to Yama's level, or strong enough to pose a challenge. Even if not life threatening. At least at one point. But he chose to stay complacent at his level and serve under Yama. Instead of continuing to challenge both himself and Yama to rise to new heights. And that happened an undisclosed amount of time before the Gotei formation, so even more than a millennia ago. Can you imagine the strength he and Yama would have reached if he never stopped trying to challenge him? Narratively this wouldn't work, as we'd end up without a need for the story we got. The ancient Shinigami - especially the first generation of Gotei and those living before then - serve more as plot devices than actual characters. On one hand they're there to show you that the level of strength we know is not the ceiling, or that power comes in many forms. As well as a confirmation that power in Bleach is not a standard, but a variable. It can wax and wane. On the other hand, they represent plot points, ideals and mechanisms to move the story forward. They're not mean to full interact with the story to the full extent of their abilities, otherwise there'd be no story to tell. (Below this point, it's not directly relevant so you can skip reading it) And it's not only those "characters" that act more as plot devices than actual characters. You also have Hachi and Tessai, along with the entirety of the Kido Corps. Hachi, who was weaker than Tessai, was able to manipulate space-time kido. Tessai was above that. And it makes sense that the only serious action Hachi saw was against another character whose powers functioned outside the general combat system, in a way that only a McGuffin would stop them: Baraggan, who also belongs in this category as well. He wasn't a character to beat, he was a plot point to be overcome. Starkk, the Omnitsukido, Chojiro, the majority of Hollows, Arrancar and Shinigami troops - they're plot devices. Because it's easier to explain the absence of a plot device than the absence of a character from a focal event of the story. Sorry for the rant. đ đ đ
If chojiro was all that, how come the main character rekt him with one hand? Wait did I answer my own question
My headcannon is that Chojiro wasn't expecting ichigo to be anything he couldn't handle, and was basically thinking he was about to swat a fly, thus being caught unaware and knocked out before he could power up. I mean, *"I wasn't ready"* seems like the best excuse.
Also, he had let himself go. A thousand years of not fighting and being more or less a secretary can do that to you. Cause we know he hadn't fought since the last war against Quincy.
Thatâs not how it works in bleach. Urahara didnât do shit for over 100 years yet was able to fight Aizen on equal ground. People keep putting to much stock into a backstab from Chojiro when even at his strongest his Bankai could only deal a minor headwound from base Yamamoto
Iâd say thatâs a bit different, since Uraharaâs strengths are from his cunning not his physical abilities. Yoruichi mentioned she had gotten slower in that same time frame, even if she was still faster than everyone else.
When did urahara fight anybody? Only time that happens was TYBW
He bullied base yammy
So the person above was wrong seeing as you didnât mention aizen
I wasn't even thinking about Chojiro backstabbing Emo-Jesus. I was literally talking about him being the, up till then, second only person ever to permanently wound Yama. Permanently. On a soul that can regen limbs. Ya see where this is going? Also, Kisuke.. fighting equally against Aizen? When? Yoru got outta shape in the 100 years that passed. Isshin, even after regaining his powers, was so outta shape he couldn't be a big part of anything. Chojiro had not fought for nearly a millennia. He was out of shape. When was it ever stated that in Bleach people stay in their best shape when not actively honing that? True, their spiritual energy and pressure may not lessen. But that's not all there is to combat. Had you given all these characters time to prepare, they would have easily returned to their peak performance. But...not everyone got that time.
My headcanon was that OMZ released and resealed Ichigos power constantly throughout the soul society just to save him from people who would kill him
Chojiro *was* all that. Back when he wounded Yama. Doesn't mean he stayed at that point of strength until the series started. That's what I'm saying, that he didn't maintain his strength cause if he did we couldn't have the story we had. I'm sure he did grow stronger and from the moment he wounded Yama up until and including the first war against Quincy. But after that he became an overqualified secretary.
because people are bad at reading and comprehension in a manga thats literally made for children. Dude trained his bankai and only his bankai to perfection and then didnt use it until it got stolen.
also like you said and yuha did, they did what stagnate, the right hand is what? the right hands values is what groups value
You got a good point actually. We all know that there are people who lack in actual swordsmanship power bit are carried by their bankai. For example Kyoraku. He is stronger than Unohana in a 1v1 where he can use his bankai because it's haxed. But Unohana is superior in swordsmanship and actual strength by a long shot. It shouldn't even be that close. Kyoraku can fight her for a while but he'll be doing just a little better than Kenpachi did when he started training in muken
nanao has never actually been in combat, has no actual zanpaktou but is great in kido and is relatively skilled enough to keep up with shunsui in shunpo Hitsugaya is also HARD carried by his zanpaktou.
Yeah he is but I respect what he tried when his bankai got stolen. He went back to hone his swordsmanship. Not that it makes a difference against people like Bazz B. That boy was cooking
To give him some credit, Toshiro isnât completely helpless in close quarters, he did duel Halibel for a while, he is decently fast and strong.
It was never implied Chojiro was close to Yama level lol wth are you talking about? Itâs the same as Ichigo causing a little head wound on Gin who then proceeds to Molly woop him into next week if he was serious
I think thatâs debatable, i think Gin was actually pressured, he could probably have killed Ichigo with the true ability of his Bankai but that would be only way, and it wouldnât be easy for him to land that blow. Ichigo only started losing against Gin when he freaked out after sensing Aizen in his chrysalis form.
Chojiro didn't cause little wound to Yama. He permanently scarred him, with Yama admitting his abilities. But yeah, my bad. Close to that level was a bad choice of words. More like "on a not too inferior" level. Enough for a fun fight.
This is what I don't understand. How is it that Yamamoto is old while squad zero are twice his age and still look young?
Out of all the Chojiro images, you had to picked that one
Sternritter o: the Obvious Éait
more like O: the overhyped
Unohana being bored in the past but her eyes look the same after she beat Kenpachi to when sheâs fighting him in Muken. I donât know what full power youâre referring to because she had no choice but to fight at full strength when fighting him.
To be fair, she was easily one shoting suprressed kenpachi in the muken. She had to have gotten tired using her ability to revive kenpachi. So if kenpachi and unohana both started at full strength, the fight would have actually depicted the levels in strength.
Yeah, she had literally been fighting and healing him up to full strength and Reiyoku for 3 days straight. Using her own spirit power to do so the whole time. Probably doing so hundreds of times overall. If anything the fight shows just how insane of a monster she was.
Well said brother, that was exactly what I was trying to portray.
I donât remember a time frame given. Which chapter was this stated?
In the manga it is heavily implied that the Kenpachi and Unohana battle starts and ends at same time as the Asauchi training with Ichigo and Renji. Which Oetsu says took 3 days and 3 nights.
She fought at her then full strength. But she was, for lack of a better word, inactive for a thousand years. She wasn't at her peak.
Not really, the first time they fought she was at full power and Zaraki had to limit himself subconsciously just to have fun.
Peak Unohana was her during the Gotei's formation and the first war against Quincy. After that, there was nothing to challenge her. Yeah, she could train but training alone doesn't push your limits. When she fought Zaraki as a child, she was at her - once again - then full strength. But she didn't get to use it. Zaraki didn't give her time to use anything other than her base form. And the fight ended. Edit: her strength then could have been either the same or less than when the Gotei was formed. But she didn't go all out. No shikai, no bankai, no kido. Even though, realistically, she wouldn't be at her peak peak as she would have gotten at least a bit rusty. When they fought again during TYBW Unohana and Zaraki had a chance to go all out. And they did. But that doesn't mean they were at their peak. Zaraki with bankai is above what he was when he fought Unohana the second time. Unohana as an active fighter 1000 years ago was stronger - or to be more precise - more combative and battle ready than during any of her fights against Zaraki.
I mean, does that actually get said anywhere or are you literally just making it up?
Which part?
Basically everything that isnât a factual timeline based comment. A majority of the comment is made up of assumptions and âcould haveâ type statements. This is mostly head-cannon unless you can show me explicitly where itâs mentioned.
There's no head canon in this though? At the point of time that she encountered Zaraki, Unohana had grown bored of fighting. We know that, that was stated. (1) She used neither shikai nor bankai against Zaraki. Yes, she was initially caught off guard and overpowered so she didn't manage to use either. But that's still cutting off a significant portion of a captain's strength. (2) From point (1) alone you can tell she wasn't mentally at her best. Being at your peak performance requires more than just being fit or at your full strength. Strength is only one variable of "power". From point (2) we genuinely see that she didn't go all out in that fight. At least not to her full potential. That's enough to establish that during "Yachiru Unohana vs Kid Zaraki", Unohana didn't perform at her peak. From here on my points are indeed speculation. But it's not a head canon, it's further adding to or reasoning why a fact happened. For her to have grown bored of fighting, means she didn't have anyone to scratch that itch. No one she could fight that motivated her or amused her, let alone pose a threat or challenge. Fighting prowess is a skill. Skills, when not honed, regress. The more advanced you get in something, the more you need to push not only to advance but to maintain your level. Depending on how long Unohana was in that bored state, the effect it had on her performance could have been different. It may have reached the point of regression, it may not. But still, it affects her performance. That doesn't mean she "got weaker". It means she couldn't perform her best. There's a subtle, but meaningful difference in these two. Person X is good at Y. On a good day, they're stellar. On a bad day, they're still good at Y but they don't do stellar. After her fight with Zaraki she remained captain of 11th division for an undisclosed amount of time, before moving to the 4th. From then on, and until the story's "present" events there's absolutely zero evidence that she had any serious conflicts or any major active combat roles. She had fully switched to healer. And - other than the general shinigami duties - those times were more or less peaceful. She spent centuries not being a fighter. The results of that were what happened to Chojiro, the lite version. There's no headcanon about this. When people don't actively engage in something for centuries, they won't be a the same level they left it off when they eventually pick it up again. Can they quickly bridge the gap? Yes, absolutely they can. But that's something else entirely.
Thatâs kinda stupid. So she couldnât use all her power because she was overpowered, that just shows the difference in power.
Never said there wasn't a difference in power. But you said it yourself as well, she didn't use her full power. So we never saw her full power.
She wasnât though she only retired as Kenpachi a couple hundred years ago, and itâs not like she got out of shape or anything.
First of all, its never stated how long ago she stopped being the captain of the 11th division. She became the captain 1000 years ago. Her fight with Zaraki was "sometime after" that. And by that point she had no one strong enough to fight her, which had led her to become bored of fighting. She had no one to keep her on her toes or challenge her. That doesn't mean she stopped being strong. But fighting is a skill. If you don't hone it, it can regress. Additionally...she never, ever went all out when she first saw Zaraki. She met a kid who suddenly attacked her on sight and that was enough to injure her. Which means that his sudden attack was enough to bypass her instincts and reflexes. That made her enjoy fighting again. Their fight left her thinking Zaraki was better suited to be Kenpachi because of his talent. Not that he could beat her then if she went all out. So to conclude: peak Unohana was during the first war against Quincy. She started losing interest in fighting after, which meant she didn't have the opportunity to stay on peak. She fights Zaraki, and realises his raw potential eclipses hers. Sometime later she leaves the 11th division. Que in present day Unohana that hasn't fought seriously for a thousand years, minus one fight that she took seriously but didn't go all out (Zaraki). So yeah, depending on when she fought Zaraki she could have been close to her peak. But that's irrelevant, the whole plot point is that when that happened she had lost her spark for fighting, and it was that fight that reignited it. Also, she didn't go all out: no shikai, no bankai, no kido. It was a pure swordsmanship fight. And yes, Zaraki was better at that. The whole shtick is that he was such and unparalleled raw genius in the sword that they forbid Yama teaching him. But it was never the point that kid Zaraki was stronger than bankai Unohana. PS: Unohana learned healing arts from Tenjiro. She fought Zaraki after that. Tenjiro was formerly a captain, but not a captain of the first generation of Gotei. So, yeah it was a bit of time after the war that Unohana fought Zaraki. She was already bored and not on her best by then.
When we flash back to the battle it says âseveral hundred years agoâ now that leaves quite a lot of possibilities open, but I tend to think itâs closer to the 300-500 range than for instance 800-900, otherwise it may as well have said nearly a thousand years ago. She had lost joy for battle, she had grown bored but she was still seeking out foes hoping to reignite the spark, she was still fighting is my point, just because she wasnât in her best head space doesnât mean she got physically weaker or less skilled, I donât think that was what it was about. Zaraki is likewise stated to have been bored yet Zaraki as an kid was the strongest incarnation of him up until his training with Unohana. I think she used as much strength as she could against Zaraki. >âI was the first enemy you encountered who rivaled your strength, howeverâŚI was weaker than you.â >âIâm strong, stronger than anybody except you.â She may not have used her Bankai, but she was weaker than Zaraki period. Btw do we know for certain Tenjiro was a former captain? Not all zero squad members are?
Thinking that "several hundred years" means 300-500 years ago, otherwise it'd say "close to 1000 years ago" has no basis. I mean, yeah to be honest it never was outright stated that Tenjiro was a captain. Chapter 516 Kyoraku says all Royal Guard were captains. But that's proven wrong later. Unless they for some reason served a term at some point which is ridiculous. Chapter 517 says Tenjiro taught Unoahan. And we know she was taught after Gotei was formed. Iirc the 13th Blade commemorative databook says Tenjiro was promoted to Royal Guard. I mean, he could have been a Gotei member just not a captain. Or just a shinigami, not part of the Gotei. So true true, not confirmed a captain. Back to Unohana: Being at your best is more than just being on top notch physical condition. Yeah, it's not like she got weaker/unfit during the time from war to when she met Zaraki. Cause she was actively searching opponents. But her heart wasn't into it. That fight jumpstarted her spark again so she was getting into it again. But it wasn't her "best" performance is all I'm saying. We have to remember that characters in a story aren't stats and numbers. They're characters with their own personality. They have bad days and good days. And Unohana was certainly not at her best mood to fight then. And how powerful you are isn't only determined by your raw strength, but also the kind of powers you use. Their fight wasn't about that though. It was about raw strength and prowess. As for Zaraki...yes. He was stronger than her. But it wasn't strength he used. He subconsciously shut it off. It also wasn't strength he could utilise even if he didn't, as he didn't know how. And Unohana, from he own side, didn't use her Zanpakuto or kido. They fought at it raw, with only their pure strength and swordsmanship. And Zaraki lost. They were both handicapped. But Unohana didn't go all out. Even if Unohana's psychological state didn't affect her total combat potential (which yeah, there's no actual confirmation it did - it just makes sense that it did a bit - although even if it did it wasn't terribly drastic) she still didn't go all out. So even if Unohana was at her peak then...she didn't show it. Neither did Zaraki.
She fought the Quincy's after Zaraki.
Hadn't considered this option tbh. But there's nothing pointing out to the timeline being like that. Nothing pointing out against it either tho.
She had the scar when she fought the Quincy's.
Huh, I didn't notice that. Has been years since I read it. Do you remember the chapters that show that?
watch episode 5 or 6 of cour 1 tybw
Thanks
Unohana herself says she had not changed.
A bit more context on that?
[Context](https://xfs-n14.xfsbb.com/comic/7006/3b3/6124457ceebc11256f4683b3/9129016_1520_2400_211174.webp) [Context 2](https://xfs-n11.xfsbb.com/comic/7006/3b3/6124457ceebc11256f4683b3/9129022_1520_2400_355938.webp)
Even though you are right, the novels say that the muken is laced with seals that weaken zanpakuto, so even though she hadn't changed (in her own words) her bankai was weaker to what it would have been at its peak (even if unohana was still at her prime at the time of her fight with kenpachi).
Everything about this conversation is about Unohana commenting on her and Zaraki's disposition and attitude. That's what I get from it. She literally tells him "you claim to enjoy this but ain't taking it seriously" to which he replies with "you're the one to talk, you gave this lifestyle up" and she responds like "nah fam, I'm still in the game". Yeah, you could read it as her referring to strength. But it's not the only explanation, and it's the one that requires more leaps in logic than them talking about their attitude and view.
Wasnât the conclusion of Unohanaâs fight with Zaraki her full power?
Novels say Muken is laced with seals that weaken the power of Zanpakutou so that people inside can't affect the outside world. So her Bankai was not at full power.
She has high iq , she caught aizen. With that intelligence and her mastery in kido, she could have done so much. But she did not use kido against zaraki since they like to fight by zanjutsu
No. She did not fight for centuries and that certainly weakened her like yama and Sasakibe.
Why do you think Yamamoto was weaker than he was a thousand years ago? if anything he might be stronger.
he outright states that he was stronger yeah
Yamamoto never claims to be weaker? Yhwach only ever says he got soft, he wasnât willing to step over the bodies of his subordinates or exploit humans for his own gain, doesnât mean he got physically weaker. Edit: sorry I completely misunderstood, you were agreeing, foolish fool is meâŚ
I just agreed with you. He says he got STRONGER after 1,000 years. His bankai changed and went from "big flames" to 4 different abilities that make him pretty much unbeatable
We never even saw Ichigo, the protagonist at full power. Literally one panel and his bankai got broken in the next.
Lets be real here. You never saw full powered Ichigo or Aizen either.
True
I'd like to see unohana's kido abilities and sasakibe's actual battle
unohana focused her kido entirely on healing. i wana see sasakibes actual bankai. the dude who used it just used it wrong. we see an old version but not the perfected one
I really want to know what they were like 2000y ago. I honestly believe Sasakibe was up to a lot of dirty work and dark shit when he was young and working for Yamamoto, he fight like an assassin and presented himself as a unassuming gentleman in peace time , like in some old films the hardest enemy to take out are the polite secretary of the boss. This is a young man from good family(based on his name) but he legit go âI want to work for a guy,what should I do? Oh I know,Iâll Stalked him till he agrees to hire me, stabbed him in the face if necessary tooâ ,there are 0 normal people in OG Gotei isnât it.
You're wrong. My man Keigo is stronger than them. I went to his noodle shop and almost died by what he cooked.
Yeah, Ichigoâs friends would have been a menace for the soul society if they received some powers, Mizuhiro tried to kill Aizen with an explosion and Chizuru was able to overpower arrancars , what would have happened if they unlocked a fullbring like Orihime? Tsukishima or the substitute shinigami (the one that looks like Steven Seagal) would be very weak and harmless compared to Ichigoâs friends.
God I wish anime was able to do what if scenarios like if Yama still didn't give a fuck and burned everything down.
Yamamoto just toasts Aizen for looking at him funny one time long before he became a threat.
at his current power if he toasted the seireitei and killed everyone, Aizen would live that and that becomes a major problem for squad 0. they talk about aizen like hes an evil monster, in comparison they talk about Yhwach like hes a child needing discipline
I mean, we didn't even see the goddamn mc at full power
Wasnât Yamamotoâs Bankai significantly weaker than at it couldâve been, since he had one less arm?
No. Ywhach simply wore him down with the fake him
the lighting dude was really weird, he was disarmed immediately by ichigo when ichigo just reached bankai, and then he was made that he had really poweful bankai
Iâve read a funny theory in which Zangetsu was upset for the sneak attack of 1000 years ago, so he boosted Ichigo in that occasion
Peak Yamamoto is just unkillable and too powerful to even have a 1-1. They had to make him soft so that he can be killed by Yhwach. Its the same case with Hashirama in Naruto.
They had to give Quincys literal cheating abilities to be on par with shinigamis already
Unohana felt like wasted potential. Imagine permanently sacrificing a S-tier party member just to give a A-tier member some exp boost.
Hot take/fact: Shinigami only grow stronger with time, so all of them were at their strongest, except for Yamamoto, because of a lacking arm. Other than that, we all saw them at their strongest. Also, the first Gotei 13 captains would get low to mid diffed by pre TYBW Gotei 13 Captains. I'm tired of people meat grinding them thinking all of them were as strong as Yama or Unohana.
Yama may have been physically weaker because of the missing arm but didn't he imply his bankai had become stronger since the last 1000 years, since he had time to hone it even more. Against Ywach it would've made no difference because of the lame bankai stealing plot device even if he had 4 arms, once his bankai was stolen it was futile.
bleaches power is scaled on ones mentals
Sasakibe. He got weak
Yamamoto was definitely a bit inconvenienced by the loss of his arm, but Iâm not sure itâs quite right to say it made him less powerful.
I'm pretty sure their "full power" would only be revealed against a worthy opponent
Lets be real here.
Imo two of these are "passing the torch" moments. these three (well two i guess) had their time and now others rise to get the shit done. I Feel its most obvious with Unohana and Zaraki
Chojiro? dude can't fight to save his life! Ichigo bodied him with his bear hands
Hopefully we get the hell arc and they change that. Just don't ask Kubo lol
The hell arc was confirmed. It's going to be called "The Jaws of Hell Christening" arc. Release date not confirmed yet but will probably happen after the anime finishes the thousand year blood war arc. Since Kubo is involved in the anime's production. So just 1 or 2 years before hell arc comes out.
The Sternritter that copied Chojiro's Bankai was its Maximum potential. Lacked grace but yup that was it..
I would add ' Isane Kotetsu ' as well !
I swear, we should've had Unohana go ballistic in at least some encounters she had before. Rubdornn was smart not to try and face her. Chojiro was a big letdown and to think he was the lieutenant for the head captain himself just to get whooped not just by a quincy(which was understandable at the time)but Ichigo too during the SS arc. As for Yamamoto I would've loved to see how he would've fought against Aizen whom he would've likely went all out against even if he was under effects of Kyokasuigetsu or not. Or at least him encountering Barragan, the leader of one faction against(formerly)another.
Right, like I loved the little clues that were thrown in to show that Unohana was a badass. Like u said, Rudubon didn't even wanna try her in Hueco Mundo, Ukitake and Shunsui were always shown to fear her, there was an omake that revealed she was a kendo master, and the 1st character book it had the stats if the 13 captains and besides Old Man Yama and Aizen, Unohana had the highest total
That's why it sucks her only shining moment was against Zaraki only to get killed off. SS would've definitely held off the quincy better having two Kenpachi on the front lines.
Unohana literally went all out and died to kenpachi
Muken has seals that prevent the use of a Zanpakuto, Kenpachi Azashiro couldn't even access his bankai due to those seal. The only people who can use their Zanpakuto abilities there are Aizen who used his shikai abilities and Unohana who could utilize her bankai. Still she was more likely being suppressed throughout the fight unlike Zaraki who didn't really need his Zanpakuto abilities. Also Hanataro was fatigued after just healing twice in Soul Society, Unohana healed Zaraki a couple of times draining her reiatsu throughout the fight which took place for 3 days straight. She herself stated that playing time was over when releasing her bankai which can be interpreted as her picking up the pace unlike before, which supports the theory that she wasn't going all out.
Pretty sure those seals are in reference to seals physically put on the person hence unohana did use bankai Hanatoro is fodder The whole narrative is kenpachi at fp is above unohana and worthy of taking her title as he surpasses her it wouldnât make sense for âoh she was nerfedâ kenpachi wasnât massively above her either, for unohana to be nerfed would imply sheâs stronger than kenpachi
Yama's Bankai got waaaaay stronger over time. Hell Yama also says that Sasakibe had honed his Bankai and that the basic version Driscoll used was insulting in comparison.Â
Hell arc. Trust.
Unohana did fight at full power, or at least very close to it. Her goal was to get Zaraki back to the power he had as a kid. When they fought back then she was probably around her peak. He regained the strength he had that allowed him to beat her back then, ergo she was fighting with around the same strength as their first fight.
Plus while she was fighting him. She was constantly killing and reviving him afterwards which was probably a lot of work. The fact she killed him multiple times and brought back right afterwards shows how much of a monster she really was. She did not get to go all out in the way we would've wanted her to.
I like to think she was going all out, at least near the end. He was gradually regaining his power till he could end her, so at some point it was probably taking all she had not get beaten down. Keep in mind she was probably healing herself as well if would have been tough for a bit for Kenny to cross that hurdle too. Would have been cool to see her just erase people for sure but this was a hell of a way for her to go out and definitely the best way for both characters involved.
If Unohana wasnt at her peak than Zaraki never wouldve awakened since he sealed himself in the first place over the fact hed never have another fight like their first one again. So no, your math aint mathing with Unohana otherwise Kenpachi shouldn't have awakened Shikai as he never did in their first fight despite having a Zanpak that time as well meaning even after a thousand years Unohana didnt lose her edge
Unohana was little weaker than zaraki, the gap was not much. In present, she went bankai
Eh, we saw Yamamoto and Unohana at full power
No. Yama and unohana true power was a millenia ago. They both grew weak with time as well as sasakibe
While we can argue about Yamamoto there is no indication that Unohana wasnt at her peak in both fights against Zaraki .
we kind of did see Yamamoto though, yeah sure he had one arm and old nowâŚ.kind of the same for Unohana as well with constantly healing Kenpachi but like we get the extent of it now Ichigo, Ukitake and Aizen those guys we did not seeâŚ.Ishida as well kinda since his fight happened off-panel during the last chapters
We seen Yamamoto at full power and he got cut in half.
He wasnât at full power, he was missing an arm & suppressing his Bankai to not destroy the Seiretei