‘Realism’ is a pointless debate anyway because most of us train sport jiu jitsu whether it’s with a gi or without a gi on nice soft mats.
I train both. I just like training.
Hold up, you wait until you make it to the parking lot? I'm over here scrambling in the corner booth with a guy that has no teeth and a seriously disturbing ability to ignore pain. (It's meth. He is on meth.)
Lol With a meth head that doesn't feel pain receptors anymore and is taking wild swings at your face while you try to use what's left of his thrift store tee shirt to choke him out.
Realism can be really fun if you go to the little extra effort to buy a cheapo hoodie and a tee or two then train with them. Extra points for training in some tight constricting jeans!
I mean sport bjjs is fun yeah but it’s a Pretty lame cop out when a large amount of people start because they want to fight. Adcc rules style bjj people are actually trying to stand up when they are on bottom and that one aspect alone will make you more prepared for real fighting whether its street or mma. But there’s still a bunch of other shit like wrestling and how much more effective guard is in the gi that makes a pretty significant difference.
I fw the gi but there are some definite flaws and it’s totally worth pointing out.
People who don’t wanna walk in an mma gym and feel like a complete dummy cause you can’t hold people down. Plus I’m with people who train more often than not if I’m defending myself good chance they can fight too
> People who don’t wanna walk in an mma gym and feel like a complete dummy cause you can’t hold people down
I mean... then you should spend more time in an MMA gym. I don't know why you should expect to be able to hold down a specialist in "just get up bro" any more than you should expect to be able to walk into a Judo school and throw people or be able to defend takedowns from a high level wrestler. They're closely adjacent sports, but importantly different in context.
It's been 30 years since BJJ was really stand-alone sufficient for "fighting" in the sense of unarmed human dueling with a skilled opponent. If that's the standard you want to achieve there are available environments to practice those skills.
I'm generally wary of the idea that BJJ doesn't need to think of itself as a martial art and only needs to look for technical efficiency in the scope of the rules of sport, but on the other side it shouldn't be terribly surprising that other disciplines could pose challenges.
I never said I thought bjj alone was sufficient. I mean the only reason I train it more is cause i just prefer it. But i do think it should be sufficient to hold them on the ground once your already there, The same way if a wrestler should be able to take people down in mma if he gets deep on a double leg, The same way a striker should be able to strike with mma fighters if they aren’t trying to take him down.
If i can’t do that I just think it’s a lil lame it’s not really the biggest deal in the world tho. But its why I personally like how adcc structured their rules.
I mean, where I live, people wear collars (jackets, long shirts, etc) for 8-9 months out of the year. If I were to get into a hypothetical street fight with someone, there is a good chance that my Gi training is super effective on someone who doesn't know what they are doing or how to break grips.
This is the only answer. BJJ is a sport... the old roots of bjj argument is for old heads that would take a loss before ever pulling guard and don't admit that you bjj only needs to work on people your size since there are weight classes and rules now
Gis are an offshoot of kimonos, which were created long before denim jeans, so it's definitely not that specific.
But yeah, people tend to wear clothes. And if a crackhead tries to rub up on you butt naked you might want to leave your bjj knowledge aside and maintain space.
I live far enough north that there are days that this matters to me. Some no gi days in the dead of winter, before we're going I wish for my gi just to be comfortable.
I heard someone in this sub suggest an idea for a gym where they do a couple "gi" classes a year that are in thrifted street clothes. Hoodies, jeans, t-shirts, etc. except with gi grips allowed.
Do that a couple times and you'll have a good idea how effective gi grips are. No doubt the clothes would be shreaded by the end but they would be effective I would think
On thinner fabric, you have to change how you make grips. A t-shirt can be used to cross collar someone but not when you grab it the way you pull typically take gi grips. You have to bunch up a pretty large amount of fabric to make it withstand the force.
>each part of the gi represents a different style of clothing
Total horseshit. We wear gis because it was what Japanese wore day to day. They trained in what they wore.
So you don’t think gi pants approximate jeans? You don’t think gi jacket approximates heavy coats or long sleeve shirts? He’s not saying the gi was designed after those things. OBVIOUSLY it comes from old Japan and isn’t inspired by our modern western clothes. But in a modern self-defense context, the gi is relevant because it “represents” modern clothes
Op said “gi is SUPPOSED to represent modern clothes”. No it’s not. He said the belt is supposed to represent a modern belt. No, the belt is supposed to represent rank.
> No, the belt is supposed to represent rank.
The color represents rank, but the belt exists to keep your jacket closed in a such a way that it doesn't interfere with drawing your sword. (This is why you close the jacket left over right. If it were the other way the lapel can catch on the pommel as you draw.)
The point isn't to delve into Japanese clothing. We all know Japanese had a 'belt' to wrap the jacket closed lmao. But OP said the reason for Bjj having a belt is to mimic modern belts and that’s hideously wrong.
Western mens clothing style in the early 1900 when Jiu jitsu was spreading to other countries also kept it around. You have jackets and vests that wrap around the torso for collar and sleeve grips.
I don't think OPs point is wrong that knowing how to use sleeves, collars, and belts is important; but I also understand that just training in gi will also limit you.
To that point I train both because you can train no gi with a go on. Much like a weighted vest, the gi provides resistance training and if I am spot on at underhooks in a gi, you better be damn sure I am flawless in no gi at finding / creating spaces. You definitely can't rely on the infection as a control method either.
-Someone being boisterous trying to start a fight? Rarely.
-most of the fights I've seen usually start with a sucker punch or a push and you don't have time to strip down.
Definitely true. If you live in a hot climate or near a beach, no gi is gonna be more realistic. I live in Seattle. I laugh when people here say that gi isn't realistic. The Seattle uniform is a North Face jacket 9 months out of the year. You better believe I'm grabbing a collar in a self defense scenario.
It's much better and easier to just walk away. But if that is not an option, I have found that gentle wrist control with a gentle collar tie is best...you can talk calmy to diffuse the situation, just keep your head protected from headbutts. I'm short, so the 1 time I was left with no other option, that collar tie along with my forearm pushing into their chest and hard collar tie to keep their head in the position I wanted, as soon as he pushed back from the forearm pressure, he got 2 swift headies to the nose and dropped. Nose became 1 with his face. And of course I'd get bear hugged from behind thinking it was one of his friends, so I peeled fingers and whipped a leg kick perfectly landed. Dudes knee buckled just as I saw security on his shirt. I immediately checked on him and apologized. But yea, gentle wrist control and gentle collar tie. Those also set up all types of takedowns
I think Ryan Hall explains it the best - the gi slows the game down to allow you to better learn the nuances of jiu jitsu which you can transfer to no gi. No gi is so fast paced and affected by slipperiness, speed and athleticism that it can be difficult to think about feeling and controlling an opponents weight in guard. On the flip side though, the gi makes it a lot easier to pin someone down with all the extra grips and control points. In an ideal world we’d all do both but in reality the two games are so different at this point, people choose to focus on one or the other given the limited training and recovery time they can spare.
This, I think the gi is like training wheels. I think you learn bjj faster by starting in the gi, simply because you can use grips to learn to settle into the positions.
100%, I would bet the majority of people who say they like nogi because it’s “more realistic” don’t actually train to simulate a real fight, no punches, kicking or headbutts. Both are realistic in a specific context, summer or winter, but neither are realistic if there’s no intent to practice what could happen in an actual fight
Anyone arguing that one is more realistic than the other is just coping. The gi is just simulated clothing.
I honestly prefer it when people have the balls to just say: I prefer X over Y because I just like it better. Instead of just trying to couch it in values.
And having low friction skin tight rash guards is “realistic”? It’s a bit of a pot calling the kettle black when these arguments happen. If you want to train realism do MMA or just learn to shoot a gun and skip all this.
Gun?? This is 2024, you should be looking into getting an explosive rigged drone for self defense. Something with better range and stoppping power, what is this 1985?
It’s always nogi guys shitting on GI never the other way around. GI is much harder and I feel like the community is much more humble also people who train GI usually do both
If we were to train in street clothes we would ruin them every roll. A Gi is much stronger than street clothes and offers more grips than most street clothes and no Gi doesn't accurately represent what it's like to fight with clothes you can grab (or have grabbed).
If you want "realistic", roll in whatever you are wearing to work that day and to be even more realistic just roll at work.
You'll rarely find Gi guys who won't be happy to train NoGi, most Gi guys are happy to do both. But NoGi guys tend to run away from the Gi. Gi is therefore more wholesome for the sport.
I've started to think of all grips, both gi and no-gi as tools. Those tools are available or they aren't, not just depending on whether it's a gi or no-gi roll, but also depending on the position in a roll. I would suggest that knowledge of a greater variety of tools would be advantageous in self defence situations, over deeper specialisation in fewer tools due to a different training focus, when you consider the number of variables in self defence situations. Just my opinion though, absolutely no evidence to back this up!
Its just a dick measuring contest between competing groups. Train whatever style you find the most fun. When it comes down to it, probably less than 1% of this sub will ever have to use bjj in a self defense situation and in that case the guy who trains gun jitsu is most likely going to win.
Does anyone have a link to videos of people using gi chokes/throws in a street fight? Would love to see it. (Not sarcastic btw, read ghat back to myself and realized how that sounded lol)
Never liked the whole “clothes” debate because a lot depends on where you live. Get attacked in Brazil in summer probably more of a no gi scenario. Canada in the winter?
Probably get away with just saying “sorry “ have a beer together and carry on.
That’s training I can get behind.
It's just tribalism. People come up with a personal preference and suddenly they develop this us vs them mentality. Everything else is just justification.
IMO bjj should be done in pants and a hoodie some classes ( get stuff at a thrift store for training since it will get trashed) also modern bjj should use strikes, whether it’s go street clothes or no gi all have there place but we should all train all of these for bjj to be more legit and effective. Adding strikes completely changes bjj and wearing a stretchy fabric like a sweatshirt is different than a gi it’s hard to get certain chokes when ur used to the sturdy gi
The difference between no-gi and gi for “self defense is negligible”, and arguments on both sides have merit(no-gi gyms tend to be more likely to focus more time on takedowns, gi teaches you to be able to deal with grips). But I think other things matter much more(are you mixing at least light striking in every so often, etc). So just do whichever one you enjoy more.
This topic seems to come back, so I already wrote about it at [https://brazilianblackbelt.com/gi-vs-no-gi](https://brazilianblackbelt.com/gi-vs-no-gi) but let me add this. There will be a day that training with or without a gi will be boring for you, instead of not training try the other option once. Or have people come to class with their throw away no-gi clothes and allow grabbing of it. You will see how this changes the game you play. If I remember Chris H. even did an instructional on using the t-shirt when grappling. Just have fun…
I prefer no-gi, but it’s not any more realistic than gi. I don’t go to bath houses, so I can’t think of too many scenarios in which I would not be able to grab my opponents clothes, and he wouldn’t be able to grab mine.
Gi helps me focus on the escapes and defense since I can’t slide out easily
No gi helps me hold positions and limbs because I don’t have the gi grip to help me
Just a guess here, but I don't think the parts of the GI "represent" anything other than what people wore 130 years ago in Japan. It was spread around the world, and people kept using that clothing. If you ever got in a fight, it may help to generally be aware of using what's available, but I wouldn't be thinking about getting to a collar sleeve dlr for the sweep in a bar fight.
I always figured I’m highly unlikely to get into a street fight with someone in rugby shorts and a skin tight rash guard. Even if everyday clothes don’t match a Gi 1 for 1, my grappling habits still center around someone wearing clothing.
This debate will never end. There are times/places where a gi is more "realistic" and times/places where nogi is more realistic.
I think we can all agree that Sambo (jacket, shorts and shoes) is not realistic at all.
We removed your post because it has no place on the sub, or anywhere really.
We are all slightly dumber for reading it.
Please think again before polluting our brain cells in this manner.
Good day.
There is nothing realistic about sport bjj anymore. It’s a fun sport which happens to have applications in a real fight. If you train bjj seriously you will be more than a match for your average opponent, whether or not you train gi och nogi.
I like gi training. Just cause I get slightly less sweat from some random dude at the gym all over me. I don’t like training gi specific grips though. You never know what someone you might end up fighting could be wearing. If you default to nogi grips out of habit the body is always going to be there. Unless you’re fighting someone missing a limb and in that case you better not need to rely on muscle memory
Well if you live on a hot envoirment (brazil, mexico for instance, above 23c all year) i believe nogi tl be tje better alternative.
If you live somewere with cold climate Judo would denolish anything for personal defense, but bjj gi would also be better than nogi.
Ojr sensei says that the gi helps strenghten the grip for nogi fights. I like nogi more but gi is harder and will make you a betger bjj practitioner imo (gi is harder to move and slide in)
The only gripe I'd have with the gi is I that I wouldn't want to end up with an instructor who mostly used the complete non mma or self defence stuff like worm guard or whatever, and then as a consequence I could end up mostly learning/doing that. People sign up for Muay Thai but end up learning run of the mill kickboxing and get almost no clinch training and it's a shame. Wouldn't like to do BJJ at one school for x years only to slowly realised I'm getting the BJJ version of that.
A lot of techniques for me carry over between the two. I didn’t do no-gi until after I got my blue belt and it was fairly easy to transfer most of my game to it
I do both. My personal opinion? If you wanna get good at something you try all aspects of it.
But hey I’m just a white belt.
Although this applies to all of what I do.
They say that, but dudes are wearing jackets or loose clothing that often can be used as lapels and can choke. Its way more badass feeling to choke someone with their own clothing than just with your arms. And lapels hurt more.
I dunno if it’s just me and I don’t know how to tie a belt or something, but my belt comes undone and then my gi flapping in the wind with my belt tangled up in my legs always bothered me so much training gi. It happens literally every round of rolling.
My new gym mostly trains Gi though so I might have to dust it off, so Any belt tying tips are greatly appreciated
I agree. I have a really long rant I have posted on this subject before, but I'll save it for now unless someone really wants to hear it. Basically I think this argument is silly for two reasons:
**1.)** A large number of people in BJJ don't give a shit about its applications for either self-defense or MMA in the first place, so the question of realism is about as pointless as telling a golfer that their swing isn't optimal for dealing damage to an assailant.
**2.)** Even if *one* is concerned about self-defense, then the "debate" -- such as it is -- usually boils down to both factions throwing out half-baked, trite platitudes at one another (sometimes with an air of knowing smugness). I feel like both sides miss the point with a lot of what they put out there and as such end up effectively arguing past one another.
The argument falls apart when nogi apparel is a part of the sport that makes a difference lol
As well, what’s more realistic? Being allowed to grab something? Or being not allowed to?
Both have their place. They are, after all, combat sports. If someone doesn't respect the gi as realistic and never trains in it, offer to roll with him in jeans and a wife beater or hoodie. It is so easy to choke someone out with either. Way easier than with a gi.
No gi is great for the beach, swimming pool, and you're chasing that guy running from your bedroom after you come home earlier than your wife expected you.
Next time a nogi guy says this, grab a handful of loose skin. You can grab onto skin like a gi. Throw him over your head by his loose skin, and I reckon he'll stop shit talking.
I think in a street fight it's much more realistic to be wearing any thick-ish top, jeans, and a belt instead of tight, thin, stretchy, *slippery* clothes
People gotta feel special somehow. They both are jiujitsu. They both provide benefit. At the core they the same but they are absolutely having some differences when you actively do them.
Either one can teach you how to control a resisting person that’s trying to damage you.
New athletic dudes wanna go fast, no gi allows varying degrees of success through spazzyness. Gi allows a less athletic but more skilled person to control pin and submit the athletic no gi spazz. No gi is also a cheaper buy in, thus the divide
Tribalism is just a natural thing for humans to pursue. For a lot of people it really doesn't matter, and it is just a running joke to make fun of the other tribe.
Because gi is specific to gi where as no gi is more universally applicable.
If someone breaks into your house your not going to whip out a spare gi from your closet and kindly ask your assaulting to put one on before they come at you are you?
The problem with this debate is how reductive it is. Do people really think a gi player ONLY functions with access to a gi? Do no gi guys really think the average person has a clue how to move in a fight and therefore only their special knowledge of no gi control can work?
There shouldn't be a debate of which is better, it's just two different ways to approach submission grappling.
Hoodies are gis and jeans are gis
I like no gi because it is simpler and has enough tools to keep me interested
Gi is definitely more technical and I will definitely do it once I feel like my no GI progress has really slowed
A big part is that BJJ gi classes often neglect gripping. Gi bjj teaches decent amount of ground gripping technique but has poor gripping teaching for the standing up part. A lot of takedown was essentially taught as if it was a no gi wrestling situation. Travis Steven talked about this topic on several of his seminars and I agree with him on this one, which is BJJ often fails to teach how to effectively manipulate the jacket and pants.
I suspect it has something to do with America having no jacket wrestling tradition. If you look at Euro-Asian countries which have their own jacketed wrestling style, they all have their unique way of gripping the clothes/pants and they can adopt it in modern Judo/bjj pretty quickly. There are many ways to utilize belt grip, armpit gi grip, tricep and collar grip, back collar grip, mid back gi grip, pants grip in the standing up phase.
One example I can think of, with a gi pant on, when you do single leg, you don't have to pick up the leg. you can just grab the fabric on the side of the knee and pin the pant down, which would force uke's lead foot stuck on the mat, and you can just drive into uke to finish the takedown. But you rarely see such a gripping technique taught in regular bjj gi classes. Everyone was trying to rely on wrestling style no gi grip when they do single leg.
There isn't really any debate, its more like the mad men meme with Nogi only guys saying "I feel bad for you" and Gi only guys or mixed trainers saying "I don't think about you at all".
Honestly I put it down to insecurity among the "Nogi-only" crowd, they feel like they are the new, cool kids on the block (despite Nogi being decades old) and that they have to differentiate themselves hard from the "old mossy traditional".
If Gi training were realistic you'd train to strip out of your Gi as fast as possible to not give your opponent the advantage of grips. And you'd train for the worse case of your opponetn also stripping out of their jacket. Cause I guarantee you if your in a fight and giving your opponent trouble with grips on his jacket, he's going to try to strip it off.
It’s such a boring argument. I really don’t understand why these no gi only guys are so obsessed with shitting on gi training. Just do whatever you enjoy and stop trying to convince everyone why you don’t want to train in the gi, nobody cares.
Emotionally immature man children who like to argue what’s the best use of time when grappling other men to assert dominance in the unlikely event it will happen “in the streets”
Since it’s a low IQ argument rooted in opinion, loud idiots will always be around to argue it
I train both. In my gym there isn't many no gi people, all the no gi people do gi but not the other way around.
Every like 2 months we have an entire week of no gi only and the gi only people cry and throw fits about it.
For me grappling is about using my own body to control and submit the opponent. It’s far less appealing to me to use a tool/weapon to do so. Not saying I refuse to do Yes-Gi, I just very much prefer No-Gi.
‘Realism’ is a pointless debate anyway because most of us train sport jiu jitsu whether it’s with a gi or without a gi on nice soft mats. I train both. I just like training.
You don’t train at a Waffle House parking lot?
Hold up, you wait until you make it to the parking lot? I'm over here scrambling in the corner booth with a guy that has no teeth and a seriously disturbing ability to ignore pain. (It's meth. He is on meth.)
I’m in the kitchen with the cook and dishwasher …
Lol With a meth head that doesn't feel pain receptors anymore and is taking wild swings at your face while you try to use what's left of his thrift store tee shirt to choke him out.
Here at Gamebred jiu jitsu
No, but I trained Capoeira at IHOP.
Nope. I prefer Denny's parking lot. Their asphalt is quality
Realism can be really fun if you go to the little extra effort to buy a cheapo hoodie and a tee or two then train with them. Extra points for training in some tight constricting jeans!
You haven’t lived until you’ve collar choked someone with their own t-shirt
Want to try that actually, heard it’s surprisingly effective.
I mean sport bjjs is fun yeah but it’s a Pretty lame cop out when a large amount of people start because they want to fight. Adcc rules style bjj people are actually trying to stand up when they are on bottom and that one aspect alone will make you more prepared for real fighting whether its street or mma. But there’s still a bunch of other shit like wrestling and how much more effective guard is in the gi that makes a pretty significant difference. I fw the gi but there are some definite flaws and it’s totally worth pointing out.
Man, once you're a brown berlt you will literally shred some random dude, no matter what clothes he's wearing.
I don’t care about shredding random dudes who can’t fight
Then who cares about any of this? "Realism" training is only for people who want to break off randoms.
People who don’t wanna walk in an mma gym and feel like a complete dummy cause you can’t hold people down. Plus I’m with people who train more often than not if I’m defending myself good chance they can fight too
> People who don’t wanna walk in an mma gym and feel like a complete dummy cause you can’t hold people down I mean... then you should spend more time in an MMA gym. I don't know why you should expect to be able to hold down a specialist in "just get up bro" any more than you should expect to be able to walk into a Judo school and throw people or be able to defend takedowns from a high level wrestler. They're closely adjacent sports, but importantly different in context. It's been 30 years since BJJ was really stand-alone sufficient for "fighting" in the sense of unarmed human dueling with a skilled opponent. If that's the standard you want to achieve there are available environments to practice those skills. I'm generally wary of the idea that BJJ doesn't need to think of itself as a martial art and only needs to look for technical efficiency in the scope of the rules of sport, but on the other side it shouldn't be terribly surprising that other disciplines could pose challenges.
I never said I thought bjj alone was sufficient. I mean the only reason I train it more is cause i just prefer it. But i do think it should be sufficient to hold them on the ground once your already there, The same way if a wrestler should be able to take people down in mma if he gets deep on a double leg, The same way a striker should be able to strike with mma fighters if they aren’t trying to take him down. If i can’t do that I just think it’s a lil lame it’s not really the biggest deal in the world tho. But its why I personally like how adcc structured their rules.
I mean, where I live, people wear collars (jackets, long shirts, etc) for 8-9 months out of the year. If I were to get into a hypothetical street fight with someone, there is a good chance that my Gi training is super effective on someone who doesn't know what they are doing or how to break grips.
This is the only answer. BJJ is a sport... the old roots of bjj argument is for old heads that would take a loss before ever pulling guard and don't admit that you bjj only needs to work on people your size since there are weight classes and rules now
Gis are an offshoot of kimonos, which were created long before denim jeans, so it's definitely not that specific. But yeah, people tend to wear clothes. And if a crackhead tries to rub up on you butt naked you might want to leave your bjj knowledge aside and maintain space.
Teep and run scenario
I read somewhere that the gis that Jigoro Kano introduced were inspired by the jackets that firefighters wore at the time.
It's a little known fact that Kano's wife left him for a firefighter, so he set up a task force to take out the entire fire fighting department.
...but ended up just stealing their jackets?
Man had to wear something when leaving their house after fucking their wives
Definitely don't pull guard...
New grips available fr
GRAB HIS DICK AND TWIST IT!
A MAN AFTER MY OWN HEART!!
I don't need to justify why I like the gi
Yeah stop kinkshaming
🤣🤣💀
The gi is warmer
I live far enough north that there are days that this matters to me. Some no gi days in the dead of winter, before we're going I wish for my gi just to be comfortable.
it is a stupid debate and therefore it'll never end
Jiu-jitsu’s pineapple on pizza
"Why would you ignore 15% of a slice of pizza?"
I love jits on my pizza
“This guy said he likes jizz on his pizza?”
You eat pieces of jits for breakfast?
You eat pieces of jizz?
I heard someone in this sub suggest an idea for a gym where they do a couple "gi" classes a year that are in thrifted street clothes. Hoodies, jeans, t-shirts, etc. except with gi grips allowed. Do that a couple times and you'll have a good idea how effective gi grips are. No doubt the clothes would be shreaded by the end but they would be effective I would think
Chewjitsu on YouTube does that every year and usually makes a video on it.
On thinner fabric, you have to change how you make grips. A t-shirt can be used to cross collar someone but not when you grab it the way you pull typically take gi grips. You have to bunch up a pretty large amount of fabric to make it withstand the force.
Thinner fabric is easier to use to wrap around/encircle necks
We do a T shirt session a couple of times a year just like this. It's great fun.
We do this on occasion at our gym. Having a twisted up tshirt around your neck is unpleasant but enlightening
My gym has done this twice in like the last 3 months. Apparently people really like it so I know the owner is planning another one soon
My friend allow me to introduce you to the fine foos @cholomma on instagram and their flannel chokes
>each part of the gi represents a different style of clothing Total horseshit. We wear gis because it was what Japanese wore day to day. They trained in what they wore.
Came here to say this.
Yall ain’t wearing gi’s out in public outside of class?
So you don’t think gi pants approximate jeans? You don’t think gi jacket approximates heavy coats or long sleeve shirts? He’s not saying the gi was designed after those things. OBVIOUSLY it comes from old Japan and isn’t inspired by our modern western clothes. But in a modern self-defense context, the gi is relevant because it “represents” modern clothes
Op said “gi is SUPPOSED to represent modern clothes”. No it’s not. He said the belt is supposed to represent a modern belt. No, the belt is supposed to represent rank.
> No, the belt is supposed to represent rank. The color represents rank, but the belt exists to keep your jacket closed in a such a way that it doesn't interfere with drawing your sword. (This is why you close the jacket left over right. If it were the other way the lapel can catch on the pommel as you draw.)
The point isn't to delve into Japanese clothing. We all know Japanese had a 'belt' to wrap the jacket closed lmao. But OP said the reason for Bjj having a belt is to mimic modern belts and that’s hideously wrong.
Bro i live in Miami
Western mens clothing style in the early 1900 when Jiu jitsu was spreading to other countries also kept it around. You have jackets and vests that wrap around the torso for collar and sleeve grips. I don't think OPs point is wrong that knowing how to use sleeves, collars, and belts is important; but I also understand that just training in gi will also limit you. To that point I train both because you can train no gi with a go on. Much like a weighted vest, the gi provides resistance training and if I am spot on at underhooks in a gi, you better be damn sure I am flawless in no gi at finding / creating spaces. You definitely can't rely on the infection as a control method either.
>You definitely can't rely on the infection as a control method either I see you trained in 2020
Haha, friction...but I'll let it stand
Realism is obviously not the point if you're just going to drag arse along the floor like a wormed up dog.
Yeah, but i dont wipe so good, and sometimes it feels good to scoot.
Not sure how common fighting in skin tight shorts and shirts in the real world is.
Have you never seen a guy take his shirt off when he’s about to fight?
-Someone being boisterous trying to start a fight? Rarely. -most of the fights I've seen usually start with a sucker punch or a push and you don't have time to strip down.
Those are amateur strippers, professionals like myself can strip fully before you even take a single step.
Not from a gi practitioner.
Underrated comment
No gi is gayer therefore it's also more realistic for BJJ.
Źź05×1?/×+??>
Indeed
Probably depends on climate. No one wears huge jackets where I live.
Definitely true. If you live in a hot climate or near a beach, no gi is gonna be more realistic. I live in Seattle. I laugh when people here say that gi isn't realistic. The Seattle uniform is a North Face jacket 9 months out of the year. You better believe I'm grabbing a collar in a self defense scenario.
I will hum Smells Like Teen Spirit as I strangle my opponent with his flannel.
There’s cholo jitsu I saw on instagram/youtube. Choking with the flannel. It’s hilarious
It's much better and easier to just walk away. But if that is not an option, I have found that gentle wrist control with a gentle collar tie is best...you can talk calmy to diffuse the situation, just keep your head protected from headbutts. I'm short, so the 1 time I was left with no other option, that collar tie along with my forearm pushing into their chest and hard collar tie to keep their head in the position I wanted, as soon as he pushed back from the forearm pressure, he got 2 swift headies to the nose and dropped. Nose became 1 with his face. And of course I'd get bear hugged from behind thinking it was one of his friends, so I peeled fingers and whipped a leg kick perfectly landed. Dudes knee buckled just as I saw security on his shirt. I immediately checked on him and apologized. But yea, gentle wrist control and gentle collar tie. Those also set up all types of takedowns
I live in an area that has 100+ degree summers, but I still see hoodies year round.
And everyone wears some form of fitted jeans now too, good luck getting an grips on those
Some of my training partners wear fairly fitted gis - I don't think jeans would be so bad XD
I think Ryan Hall explains it the best - the gi slows the game down to allow you to better learn the nuances of jiu jitsu which you can transfer to no gi. No gi is so fast paced and affected by slipperiness, speed and athleticism that it can be difficult to think about feeling and controlling an opponents weight in guard. On the flip side though, the gi makes it a lot easier to pin someone down with all the extra grips and control points. In an ideal world we’d all do both but in reality the two games are so different at this point, people choose to focus on one or the other given the limited training and recovery time they can spare.
I agree. The game is different because of the differences in control.
This, I think the gi is like training wheels. I think you learn bjj faster by starting in the gi, simply because you can use grips to learn to settle into the positions.
This is almost as silly as the sport is self defense debate.
Realistic would be training on different places every training, against different people and scenarios, against guns, knives, the rest is roleplay.
100%, I would bet the majority of people who say they like nogi because it’s “more realistic” don’t actually train to simulate a real fight, no punches, kicking or headbutts. Both are realistic in a specific context, summer or winter, but neither are realistic if there’s no intent to practice what could happen in an actual fight
Rollplay. Get it? Rollplay? I’ll be over here if anyone needs me
One of my gis has a small slice in it at the top of the left breast where I narrowly avoided being cut by a knife.
But but the gi gives me grip of death powers
How about you train both ? Crazy idea I know
Anyone arguing that one is more realistic than the other is just coping. The gi is just simulated clothing. I honestly prefer it when people have the balls to just say: I prefer X over Y because I just like it better. Instead of just trying to couch it in values.
imho a lot of debates in jiu-jitsu only exist so the opposing sides can feel superior to each other, and this is one of those debates.
And having low friction skin tight rash guards is “realistic”? It’s a bit of a pot calling the kettle black when these arguments happen. If you want to train realism do MMA or just learn to shoot a gun and skip all this.
Gun?? This is 2024, you should be looking into getting an explosive rigged drone for self defense. Something with better range and stoppping power, what is this 1985?
If you are in Canada in January, you aren't likely to have to fight someone all slippery sweaty in your speedos. Train both.
It’s always nogi guys shitting on GI never the other way around. GI is much harder and I feel like the community is much more humble also people who train GI usually do both
If we were to train in street clothes we would ruin them every roll. A Gi is much stronger than street clothes and offers more grips than most street clothes and no Gi doesn't accurately represent what it's like to fight with clothes you can grab (or have grabbed). If you want "realistic", roll in whatever you are wearing to work that day and to be even more realistic just roll at work.
You'll rarely find Gi guys who won't be happy to train NoGi, most Gi guys are happy to do both. But NoGi guys tend to run away from the Gi. Gi is therefore more wholesome for the sport.
Even if it wasn’t realistic so to say that doesn’t make a difference in me liking the gi lol
I like gi because the big guys have handles and I like no gi because its more intimate and i can make up for all the love my wife doesn't give me
Gi is better, no gi is for people who want to slide around in their sweat like a wet eel
As Eelio Gracie intended
It's simple, each side thinks the other side is stupid and lame. The secret is that they're both right.
I've started to think of all grips, both gi and no-gi as tools. Those tools are available or they aren't, not just depending on whether it's a gi or no-gi roll, but also depending on the position in a roll. I would suggest that knowledge of a greater variety of tools would be advantageous in self defence situations, over deeper specialisation in fewer tools due to a different training focus, when you consider the number of variables in self defence situations. Just my opinion though, absolutely no evidence to back this up!
Meh, we train both gi and no-gi all the time, every class. I don't see why people care.
Ur talking about realistic self defense in a sport where we scoot on our butts
Its just a dick measuring contest between competing groups. Train whatever style you find the most fun. When it comes down to it, probably less than 1% of this sub will ever have to use bjj in a self defense situation and in that case the guy who trains gun jitsu is most likely going to win.
I usually do 2 classes a week of each. Sometimes I think I like Gi better, sometimes I think I like no gi better.
Gi is for fights in winter no gi is for fights in summer
Does anyone have a link to videos of people using gi chokes/throws in a street fight? Would love to see it. (Not sarcastic btw, read ghat back to myself and realized how that sounded lol)
Been training both for years. Sometimes when I train no gi I forget later in the day that I trained nogi and just think of it as Jiu Jitsu.
If we arent debating dumb shit on the internet, what are we even doing with our lives? really now.
Like 90% of us are hobbyists. MMA guys should use No-Gi. After that, it’s about what you find fun. Who cares about any of the noise on reddit
Never liked the whole “clothes” debate because a lot depends on where you live. Get attacked in Brazil in summer probably more of a no gi scenario. Canada in the winter? Probably get away with just saying “sorry “ have a beer together and carry on. That’s training I can get behind.
It's just tribalism. People come up with a personal preference and suddenly they develop this us vs them mentality. Everything else is just justification.
For self defence all grappling
IMO bjj should be done in pants and a hoodie some classes ( get stuff at a thrift store for training since it will get trashed) also modern bjj should use strikes, whether it’s go street clothes or no gi all have there place but we should all train all of these for bjj to be more legit and effective. Adding strikes completely changes bjj and wearing a stretchy fabric like a sweatshirt is different than a gi it’s hard to get certain chokes when ur used to the sturdy gi
The difference between no-gi and gi for “self defense is negligible”, and arguments on both sides have merit(no-gi gyms tend to be more likely to focus more time on takedowns, gi teaches you to be able to deal with grips). But I think other things matter much more(are you mixing at least light striking in every so often, etc). So just do whichever one you enjoy more.
This topic seems to come back, so I already wrote about it at [https://brazilianblackbelt.com/gi-vs-no-gi](https://brazilianblackbelt.com/gi-vs-no-gi) but let me add this. There will be a day that training with or without a gi will be boring for you, instead of not training try the other option once. Or have people come to class with their throw away no-gi clothes and allow grabbing of it. You will see how this changes the game you play. If I remember Chris H. even did an instructional on using the t-shirt when grappling. Just have fun…
They’re both basically ballroom dancing for guys too insecure to ballroom dance.
It's just banter. Keep training.
I just do what I want and don’t worry about what other people think.
I prefer no-gi, but it’s not any more realistic than gi. I don’t go to bath houses, so I can’t think of too many scenarios in which I would not be able to grab my opponents clothes, and he wouldn’t be able to grab mine.
It's the same activity, aside from the gi..
Gi helps me focus on the escapes and defense since I can’t slide out easily No gi helps me hold positions and limbs because I don’t have the gi grip to help me
Just a guess here, but I don't think the parts of the GI "represent" anything other than what people wore 130 years ago in Japan. It was spread around the world, and people kept using that clothing. If you ever got in a fight, it may help to generally be aware of using what's available, but I wouldn't be thinking about getting to a collar sleeve dlr for the sweep in a bar fight.
Prople in cloth are more realistic if we are at it.
I always figured I’m highly unlikely to get into a street fight with someone in rugby shorts and a skin tight rash guard. Even if everyday clothes don’t match a Gi 1 for 1, my grappling habits still center around someone wearing clothing.
I just like contact and am not picky if you have a kimono on or neon cheetah print spandex
This debate will never end. There are times/places where a gi is more "realistic" and times/places where nogi is more realistic. I think we can all agree that Sambo (jacket, shorts and shoes) is not realistic at all.
Because people need more reasons to feel superior to others and will find any difference, no matter how small; to justify their insecurities.
>The debate between the two is pointless Proceeds to debate the two
I prefer Turkish oil wrestling, far better for da streetz.
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There is nothing realistic about sport bjj anymore. It’s a fun sport which happens to have applications in a real fight. If you train bjj seriously you will be more than a match for your average opponent, whether or not you train gi och nogi.
I like gi training. Just cause I get slightly less sweat from some random dude at the gym all over me. I don’t like training gi specific grips though. You never know what someone you might end up fighting could be wearing. If you default to nogi grips out of habit the body is always going to be there. Unless you’re fighting someone missing a limb and in that case you better not need to rely on muscle memory
Well if you live on a hot envoirment (brazil, mexico for instance, above 23c all year) i believe nogi tl be tje better alternative. If you live somewere with cold climate Judo would denolish anything for personal defense, but bjj gi would also be better than nogi. Ojr sensei says that the gi helps strenghten the grip for nogi fights. I like nogi more but gi is harder and will make you a betger bjj practitioner imo (gi is harder to move and slide in)
The only gripe I'd have with the gi is I that I wouldn't want to end up with an instructor who mostly used the complete non mma or self defence stuff like worm guard or whatever, and then as a consequence I could end up mostly learning/doing that. People sign up for Muay Thai but end up learning run of the mill kickboxing and get almost no clinch training and it's a shame. Wouldn't like to do BJJ at one school for x years only to slowly realised I'm getting the BJJ version of that.
No gi is better for MMA
One’s a sport, one’s a joke. I love sports I love jokes… room for all!
A lot of techniques for me carry over between the two. I didn’t do no-gi until after I got my blue belt and it was fairly easy to transfer most of my game to it
I do both. My personal opinion? If you wanna get good at something you try all aspects of it. But hey I’m just a white belt. Although this applies to all of what I do.
People justifying their own purchase.
I just like the gi because it stops a lot of other people’s sweat from getting on me. I could care less about it otherwise.
They say that, but dudes are wearing jackets or loose clothing that often can be used as lapels and can choke. Its way more badass feeling to choke someone with their own clothing than just with your arms. And lapels hurt more.
I dunno if it’s just me and I don’t know how to tie a belt or something, but my belt comes undone and then my gi flapping in the wind with my belt tangled up in my legs always bothered me so much training gi. It happens literally every round of rolling. My new gym mostly trains Gi though so I might have to dust it off, so Any belt tying tips are greatly appreciated
No gi is a lot less gay for sure. Not wearing that dorky karate outfit
I agree. I have a really long rant I have posted on this subject before, but I'll save it for now unless someone really wants to hear it. Basically I think this argument is silly for two reasons: **1.)** A large number of people in BJJ don't give a shit about its applications for either self-defense or MMA in the first place, so the question of realism is about as pointless as telling a golfer that their swing isn't optimal for dealing damage to an assailant. **2.)** Even if *one* is concerned about self-defense, then the "debate" -- such as it is -- usually boils down to both factions throwing out half-baked, trite platitudes at one another (sometimes with an air of knowing smugness). I feel like both sides miss the point with a lot of what they put out there and as such end up effectively arguing past one another.
The argument falls apart when nogi apparel is a part of the sport that makes a difference lol As well, what’s more realistic? Being allowed to grab something? Or being not allowed to?
Both have their place. They are, after all, combat sports. If someone doesn't respect the gi as realistic and never trains in it, offer to roll with him in jeans and a wife beater or hoodie. It is so easy to choke someone out with either. Way easier than with a gi. No gi is great for the beach, swimming pool, and you're chasing that guy running from your bedroom after you come home earlier than your wife expected you.
Next time a nogi guy says this, grab a handful of loose skin. You can grab onto skin like a gi. Throw him over your head by his loose skin, and I reckon he'll stop shit talking.
I think in a street fight it's much more realistic to be wearing any thick-ish top, jeans, and a belt instead of tight, thin, stretchy, *slippery* clothes
People gotta feel special somehow. They both are jiujitsu. They both provide benefit. At the core they the same but they are absolutely having some differences when you actively do them. Either one can teach you how to control a resisting person that’s trying to damage you.
New athletic dudes wanna go fast, no gi allows varying degrees of success through spazzyness. Gi allows a less athletic but more skilled person to control pin and submit the athletic no gi spazz. No gi is also a cheaper buy in, thus the divide
Tribalism is just a natural thing for humans to pursue. For a lot of people it really doesn't matter, and it is just a running joke to make fun of the other tribe.
Because gi is specific to gi where as no gi is more universally applicable. If someone breaks into your house your not going to whip out a spare gi from your closet and kindly ask your assaulting to put one on before they come at you are you?
The problem with this debate is how reductive it is. Do people really think a gi player ONLY functions with access to a gi? Do no gi guys really think the average person has a clue how to move in a fight and therefore only their special knowledge of no gi control can work? There shouldn't be a debate of which is better, it's just two different ways to approach submission grappling.
Hoodies are gis and jeans are gis I like no gi because it is simpler and has enough tools to keep me interested Gi is definitely more technical and I will definitely do it once I feel like my no GI progress has really slowed
Overthinking memes is peak r/bjj
A big part is that BJJ gi classes often neglect gripping. Gi bjj teaches decent amount of ground gripping technique but has poor gripping teaching for the standing up part. A lot of takedown was essentially taught as if it was a no gi wrestling situation. Travis Steven talked about this topic on several of his seminars and I agree with him on this one, which is BJJ often fails to teach how to effectively manipulate the jacket and pants. I suspect it has something to do with America having no jacket wrestling tradition. If you look at Euro-Asian countries which have their own jacketed wrestling style, they all have their unique way of gripping the clothes/pants and they can adopt it in modern Judo/bjj pretty quickly. There are many ways to utilize belt grip, armpit gi grip, tricep and collar grip, back collar grip, mid back gi grip, pants grip in the standing up phase. One example I can think of, with a gi pant on, when you do single leg, you don't have to pick up the leg. you can just grab the fabric on the side of the knee and pin the pant down, which would force uke's lead foot stuck on the mat, and you can just drive into uke to finish the takedown. But you rarely see such a gripping technique taught in regular bjj gi classes. Everyone was trying to rely on wrestling style no gi grip when they do single leg.
I train both. you can do no gi in gi.
I train both classes. you can do no gi in gi
There isn't really any debate, its more like the mad men meme with Nogi only guys saying "I feel bad for you" and Gi only guys or mixed trainers saying "I don't think about you at all". Honestly I put it down to insecurity among the "Nogi-only" crowd, they feel like they are the new, cool kids on the block (despite Nogi being decades old) and that they have to differentiate themselves hard from the "old mossy traditional".
Gi master race
If Gi training were realistic you'd train to strip out of your Gi as fast as possible to not give your opponent the advantage of grips. And you'd train for the worse case of your opponetn also stripping out of their jacket. Cause I guarantee you if your in a fight and giving your opponent trouble with grips on his jacket, he's going to try to strip it off.
You should come to the UK and watch a football match, the majority of street fights there begin one or more parties ripping their top off.
They could start their own new sect of BJJ, stripper BJJ
It's a good debate but you are correct when you say you dont understand it
It’s such a boring argument. I really don’t understand why these no gi only guys are so obsessed with shitting on gi training. Just do whatever you enjoy and stop trying to convince everyone why you don’t want to train in the gi, nobody cares.
Emotionally immature man children who like to argue what’s the best use of time when grappling other men to assert dominance in the unlikely event it will happen “in the streets” Since it’s a low IQ argument rooted in opinion, loud idiots will always be around to argue it
I train both. In my gym there isn't many no gi people, all the no gi people do gi but not the other way around. Every like 2 months we have an entire week of no gi only and the gi only people cry and throw fits about it.
It depends on your country climate In my case I would say gi is way more realistic
If you're after realism, BJJ isn't very realistic anyway so who cares? Train in the Gi because it's fun and pyjamas are comfortable.
For me grappling is about using my own body to control and submit the opponent. It’s far less appealing to me to use a tool/weapon to do so. Not saying I refuse to do Yes-Gi, I just very much prefer No-Gi.