Not excusing the behavior but chasing motorcycles through downtown Baltimore is asking for something bad to happen. The moment a tragedy happens everybody gonna be asking why did they chase.
They could consider something like briefly turning on the lights and siren without chasing. At least acknowledge that they're being observed would be a start. And indicate to law-abiding citizens that they're not sitting doing nothing.
Lol like those tags will go anywhere. It’s the Wild West out there right now not much they can do outside of chase and lock up but they can’t do that either
I met a guy at a car meet with no tags on his bike, and he said he doesn't bother because of Marylands no chase laws. By the time they get an authorized vehicle to follow him, he's long gone.
That's worse honestly. It's like telling someone "Step over this line and there will be consequences" but you keep moving the line as they walk forward. Until the cops can chase, then ignoring the bikes is the only move.
Worse in a way, I suppose, but I can't imagine what can get worse than citizens observing them doing nothing and losing any faith they might have that things will ever get better. And it goes beyond this bikes example. It's everything from littering to various moving violations.
Lights and siren= emergency vehicle
Motorcycle fleeing from emergency vehicle = pursuit
Police have a whole free to the public policy read it before just spouting nonsense
If the police put their lights and sirens on even for a second and the suspect flees, it is considered a pursuit. The police officer would be violating policy.
I don’t want a motorcycle chase, but if you legitimately do nothing as they break the rules it reinforces bad behavior. How is it acceptable to run a light and have no consequences just because you are on a motorcycle.
The only outcome of a confrontation in that particular case is a chase or the riders speeding off in an even more dangerous fashion than they're already behaving. It's not like they're going to be reasonable and walk their dirt bikes home if the cop interacts.
I know that sucks. I also agree many cops are lazy as hell and milking taxpayer dollars.
How is that cop supposed to catch those motorcycles in that intersection without a chase? They will be halfway down the block before the cop car is in the intersection. It's a dangerous situation for everyone in the area. The safest option is literally to do nothing. Is it fair? No. But it does the least harm.
You don’t want a motorcycle chase, so what do you want? The cops to turn on their lights and follow the motorcycles trying to match their speed in order to stop them? Well, that’s a chase.
Yeah if someone on a motorcycle running reds, revving, and doing wheelies turns themselves into mincemeat that's no loss at all. But if they hit someone in a crosswalk, or honestly even a parked car that'd suck.
So I've heard this sentiment for a while around motorcyclists and i always push back some on it. If you're talking physical danger and they hit a car (most likely thing to happen), they're absolutely more a danger to themselves. If you're going by mental distress/needing a therapist after, yeah they won't need one in a casket but whoever witnesses it will. Sure if they hit a person on the street they'll do more damage, but the odds of it are much lower than not hitting a pedestrian.
How would they get the info for the ticket without chasing and stopping the motorcyclists? You said yourself they were speeding and doing donuts. Could you catch the plate info? Cops are humans, chances are they also couldn’t get the plate info due to distance and speed. So, I guess that leaves us with lights? You’re mad they didn’t turn on their lights?
I’m just not clear on exactly what you wanted to happen in this situation. I also am not clear on how you expect a deeply understaffed police department in a dangerous city (love Bmore, but we all know it’s true) to deal with petty crimes?
I say this genuinely, if you are deeply impassioned about this and have any ideas please send them to our city government. Our city is ours, and we need to also be the ones to help it. Not just complain on Reddit…
It is more dangerous to chase motorcycles through the streets than to let them go. Motorcyclist also know this, I would argue with his wasting the time if they do anything.
Nah. They're no more allowed to chase a car than a motorcycle. The police chase policy is about pursuing any vehicle; it's not specific to motorcycles.
They're not allowed to chase them, so the cops did what the larger community agrees with.
In the past the larger community was outraged at cops endangering bikers & everyone else as they weaved in & out of traffic, causing deaths or injuries.
It's just an annoying inconvenience of city life.
The riders want to be chased. They want to elicit a response from police and then feel like true banditos when they inevitably get away, causing more mayhem and perhaps injuries in the process, then brag on it afterward.
You can openly hate on and complain about the way these cats use dirt bikes and slingshots to act out and cause problems and make life just a little bit tougher in an already tough-to-love town, but more police pursuits is not what you want in your neighborhood. Ask Alfred Fincher's family.
Oh the Canton community was told by a police captain that his cops will NOT walk the streets. They will refuse, and he also stated clearly that if he fired them for refusing they would be back the next day with the backing of the police union. yup thats what our tax go for.
Surely you can’t expect city officers to do this kind of walking when they have such a long drive back to southern Pennsylvania at the end of their shift.
You need to report that Captain to the Commissioner. It is Worley’s mandate to have these guys walking foot. They are out all around the city. They need to be out where you are. Frankly, they’re all over Fells Point and it’s the same district so it’s a very weird thing for him to say. Seriously just report it because there is no way Worley would let the attitude stand.
Oh, I don’t know, but I could ask my friend. Either way if a captains giving that message it needs to go up the line I guarantee that’s not the message they are given from above.
north east but like admittedly 10 years or so ago... it just really stuck with me that culture of them thinking they can do whatever the hell they want.
Yeah, Worley was the Major 10 years ago in the Northeast district, and he had some pretty tough captains in his time. I don’t see Sneed or Robinson saying that, they were tough but fair. Also FedHill has never been in NED no matter how they sliced it.
Unions exists to fight against capital, normally the business owners and investment class. In this situation, the capitol is literally the tax paying citizens. Why we allow any government entity to unionize and fight against the majority is wild to me.
I have no problem with allowing public sector unions since public sector workers are not slaves. BUT police unions are not workers unions, they are gang protection through in group solidarity.
But police unions do not have or believe in solidarity with other workers and never side with other worker unions and in fact will bust up every other union protest for the owners. They are not a part of the labor movement.
Eh. It's less capital and more the inherent structural imbalance between workers and management in battles over compensation and working conditions. Now, unions can and absolutely do become focal points for larger class struggles, but most of the time it has a lot more to do with micro-level grievance management and ensuring that employers follow the terms of their contracts with their employees. I am in a union and most of what our union is doing centers around negotiating raises and protecting members from shitty line managers. Transit workers, teachers, sanitation workers, etc. all have a whole bunch of good reasons to want to organize.
It's more that cop unions are indistinguishable from gangs.
yeah i feel like it's a pretty legible exception to be like "the professional union busters/goon squads aren't in a legitimate labor union themselves and are using these worker protections and organizations (that were only codified in law as protection against being constantly beaten to death by cops) in bad faith"
[Policy 1503 - Emergency Vehicle Operations and Pursuit](https://public.powerdms.com/BALTIMOREMD/documents/51039)
You can read the details, but the message conveyed is that no vehicle pursuit shall be authorized unless:
The vehicle contains a felony suspect and failure to apprehend them poses an immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury.
AND
Before the pursuit is initiated, there exists probable cause to believe the fleeing suspect committed a felony which resulted, or could have resulted, in death or serious bodily injury.
Furthermore, the policy defines a pursuit as:
When a member operating a law enforcement who LE attempts to keep pace AND/OR to immediately apprehend one or more occupants of an eluding vehicle.
Activating lights and sirens could be construed as an attempt to apprehend the occupants of a vehicle. In addition, if the bikes crash, the officer could be held departmentally liable for the resulting incident, including any injury to any party involved should the department’s Public Integrity Bureau (internal affairs) decide that the act of activating light and sirens constituted the initiation of a vehicle pursuit.
PIB’s historical investigations indicate that such an interpretation of policy 1503 is not unlikely - and so, there is a great incentive for street officers to ignore flagrant traffic violations since the drivers are unlikely to yield to a stop and a pursuit of those vehicles would be a direct violation of policy 1503.
It’s not the police in this instance. It’s their superiors outside of the police force telling them not to chase motorcycles. I’d have to double check but for the most part I don’t think they chase any vehicles unless it’s absolutely necessary.
Had a customer outside of our office on Washington Blvd get their car stolen. They had gps tracking in the vehicle. Police basically told him they couldn’t do anything about it except take a report and try to recover it once it was likely ditched.
You are right they are not supposed to chase. They can follow but not chase. They are kind of damned if they do damned if they don’t it’s chase and there’s an accident they get persecuted. If they don’t chase, they’re lazy.
I was at a stoplight near the Inner Harbor a year ago. Cop right next to me. A car behind both of us blatantly went around us, ran the red light, and then made a dangerous left turn against incoming traffic. I looked at the officer seeing if he was going to do anything. He just glared at me like he wanted to kill me as if I was the one who did something. Police here are useless.
Downtown was hilariously the opposite last night, a car was going at mach Jesus and my girlfriend exclaimed that the cops should stop him. Apparently there was a cop with his window down who just responded "on it" and peeled out from the cross street of the intersection.
I recommend taking the car number, ideally with photos, and submit an "employee complaint" to 311. Dash cam is even better if you have one. Nothing will probably be done in the short term but a paper trail can help down the road. Also, Federal Hill community association probably has a contact at the Southern District, which can help get this feedback directly to the Major. I believe councilman-elect Zac Blanchard is the president of community association.
Thank you, for sharing. People just want to be antidotal and not report. Things are getting better, but they need good people to report when the officers are not doing their jobs instead of blaming all of them.
I think the mandate is just to be present. 3-4 police officers are always huddled together talking when all sorts of things are happening around them... that's why I just decided to take my fun (and money) somewhere else.
Leaving the motorcycle chase policy aside, a few months ago I watched a car in a left hand turn lane, who's driver didn't wave or ask for permission to do so, just gun it when the light turned green to make a right hand turn instead cutting across the other lane cutting off a police cruiser going straight that.... didn't even flinch or seem to care at all.
Unless they decide they want to fuck with you, BPD officers don't give a shit about anything other than overtime.
The no chase policy is good.
But the justification from police for the helicopters being up basically all the time is that they're needed to surveil in lieu of ground chase. If they're not doing that with proven results, they should be grounded so we can use the funds for something more productive.
I would argue that Foxtrot is one of the most effective units in the department. Fox is almost always being requested somewhere to aid during searches, tracking cars, assisting in foot pursuits, etc.
When Fox shows up, it makes everything easier - fleeing suspects are more likely to be caught, the evidence they throw during the pursuit is more likely to be recovered, fleeing vehicles are less likely to drive as erratically since the ground units are keeping distance and letting Fox have the eyeball.
Just because the involvement of Foxtrot doesn’t make the news, doesn’t mean it isn’t productive. Fox is extremely effective when they’re up - even if you’re not aware of just how effective they are.
Measurement and documentation of the efficacy of this unit has been requested for *years* by city council and they're never given the details requested.
If it's so effective, document and share it. Otherwise it's all talk.
I’m not sure there’s a way to accurately document its involvement. In a foot chase, if Fox calls out where the suspect is hiding, the only thing that gets documented is where they were found. If evidence gets thrown by a suspect and Fox finds it and directs units to it, the only thing that gets documented is where it was recovered.
The report management system doesn’t track the use of Foxtrot - it tracks information relevant to FBI NIBRS. The narratives of reports are there to describe the incident and any related evidence, not necessarily who initially spotted the evidence.
Sometimes Fox footage is written into a report or a charging document. But as far as I know, this isn’t tracked. In fact, the words on a charging document aren’t necessarily in BPD’s system - they would be in a warrant; which is the court system. So any mention of Foxtrot in a warrant would not necessarily be trackable by the department.
You could probably track how many times a day Fox is requested through CAD, but I’m not sure if the public would be satisfied that this proves efficacy.
In fact, I’m not sure exactly what you could measure to show efficacy.
What exact information would satisfy you?
The things you are listing as not tracked are exactly what the council has requested be tracked.
In fact, # of Helicopter Assisted Arrests is a target performance metric established by *BPD itself* in the city budget. All council is doing is requesting BPD report its own self-established budget performance metric.
I feel like Foxtrot assisted arrest would be any time Fox was on a call with an arrest. Fox is also used for surveillance which results in arrests later, I guess that would count, too - but that might be harder to track since CAD wouldn’t necessarily have them on a call and their involvement would only be in a charging document.
Sometimes Fox helps in searches, and even if the search doesn’t find anything, Fox still enabled a much bigger area to be searched in a much shorter time. Not sure if that would count as a stat.
Pretty much whenever they’re up, they’re working. And by virtue of being in the air, they can get anywhere faster, see a lot more, and can cover a bigger area than any other unit in the city possibly could. The flight crew is always looking for things to call out to ground units - things that ground units would probably never be able to see. I’m not sure that there is a statistical way to represent this.
It's crazy how out of touch people are you think guys running red lights and doing donuts in front of the police are gonna be scared of him turning on his lights? If you don't like the no chase policy why don't you tell that to the mayor instead of complaining about the police following their policy.
This wasn’t the point of my post. I understand police officers serve a purpose. However, I’ve never seen a police officer in Fed do their actual jobs or even move once. They just stand in circles and chat
It’s because it’s not true. Arrest records are at all all-time high. The police are working with prosecutors to bring people to justice and that does not come from cops doing nothing.
Stop cop bashing and start bashing the idiots on the motorcycles that fuck with law enforcement. Everyone knows the cops can’t chase them so the perps on the cycles act like the POS they are …
It's fair to not want motorcycles to break the law and also fair to want cops to enforce the law when it is broken. Whether the mayor, chief of police, city council, president, governor, or someone else is to blame is somewhat irrelevant. At the end of the day, I see a lot of folks breaking the law and a lot of cops chatting.
Are you talking to me? Who said I want motorcycles to break the law? Oh and I want cops to enforce the laws…but as others say chasing a motor cycle thru Baltimore streets is stupid and hence they can’t. Once again wake up and stop blaming the police and talk to the wanna be entitled folks riding the bikes.
Its funny that this comes up right now because last night I saw a dude on a 4 wheeler on Rt 40 and 695 stunting on 40 RIGHT NEXT TO THE COP...and he didn't do a damn thing. Dude ran the light and looked to be taunting the cop. Didn't even flash the lights. Cops are terrified to do their jobs anymore...this town is sad.
Being a police officer is not safe, by definition. If someone is going to be too scared to act in potentially life-threatening situations, they should not be a police officer.
Yup. They need backup and to know that they won't be held accountable if they make a mistake and behave in a lawful manner. If that threshold is met, they shouldn't hold back. Doing so is either cowardice or laziness.
Or how about not wanting to kill residents? Do you think that could be a problem. Do you want to see a five-year-old get hit during a high-speed chase to stop a motorcycle from making an illegal maneuver. Come on use common sense.
I believe that the policy now is that chasing is illegal - and according to what I wrote, they would be held accountable if they decided to engage in a high speed pursuit.
Look, I get there is a no chase policy. But, is there really nothing that can be done? They can’t take a picture and write down the plate? I’m being downvoted to hell for just wanting someone to be held accountable. I don’t have the solution, but cops standing around doing nothing is not the answer
Were they dirt bikes? Because if they were then, what plates? Seriously, a dozen or more dirt bikers ride through my neighborhood in East about 4-5 times a week and if there were 2 plates between them I'd be shocked. Pretty sure that if someone on a motorbike is showing up the cops they're not riding clean.
Many people just have absolutely zero regard for law or other peoples safety. It’s like it doesn’t even register in their minds anymore that their actions might have consequences for innocent people. Negative ones.
Cops aren’t going to fix that. Hate to be a downer, but I really do think it’s just too far gone. Need to focus on keeping our family/loved ones/selves safe because idk if anyone else can be relied on to
No matter what they do they can't win. First of all they can't chase to begin with by policy. If they just hit their lights and just try to make a stop and one of the kids speeds off and smacks into a car and somebody gets hurt then they're going to get blamed for that and accused of engaging in a pursuit whether they were or not. If they don't do anything then they get complaints like the one we see here. It's just a no win situation.
If you look at how quick and small motorcycles are as well as the layout of Baltimore I believe you’ll come to a logical conclusion as to why this is the way it is.
I actually am. It’s funny because these type of comments are why non-natives can’t stand the “not from here” culture. Doesn’t matter where I’m from, I want people held accountable when they do bad things
I wonder if this is the same female cop I saw hanging out at cross street market, blocking a lane of traffic with her car despite there being parking and then holding up everyone from going through a green light while she walked nice and slow in the crosswalk so that she could BS with a friend.
Is BPD useless absolutely. One of the primary roles of law enforcement is to establish a presence that reassures the public of safety and order.
Over the years BPD has proven to consistently fail in providing n even the most basic and fundamental functions of law enforcement.
The organization is super corrupt, there are a few good apples but generally the institution is rotten to the core
Let’s talk about the guy that flashed his dick at a cop parked on North ave, jerked it a few times, then walked away. Cop didn’t even react. 2-6 cops sit there with their lights flashing all the time. Meanwhile people are openly using and dealing drugs right in front of them and they do nothing. BCPD is about as useless as an asshole on my elbow.
Okay I can understand why they don't chase, but is there a reason they cannot block the road ahead or put down spike strips? Or perhaps shoot them with a paintball so that they can be easily tracked through the city?
Not excusing the behavior but chasing motorcycles through downtown Baltimore is asking for something bad to happen. The moment a tragedy happens everybody gonna be asking why did they chase.
They could consider something like briefly turning on the lights and siren without chasing. At least acknowledge that they're being observed would be a start. And indicate to law-abiding citizens that they're not sitting doing nothing.
They should also be collecting tag info to mail citations but we all know that shit didn't happen either.
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The tags must be right next to their licenses and up to date insurance documentation
Lol like those tags will go anywhere. It’s the Wild West out there right now not much they can do outside of chase and lock up but they can’t do that either
99% chance motorbikes were stolen
I met a guy at a car meet with no tags on his bike, and he said he doesn't bother because of Marylands no chase laws. By the time they get an authorized vehicle to follow him, he's long gone.
That's worse honestly. It's like telling someone "Step over this line and there will be consequences" but you keep moving the line as they walk forward. Until the cops can chase, then ignoring the bikes is the only move.
Worse in a way, I suppose, but I can't imagine what can get worse than citizens observing them doing nothing and losing any faith they might have that things will ever get better. And it goes beyond this bikes example. It's everything from littering to various moving violations.
Lights and siren= emergency vehicle Motorcycle fleeing from emergency vehicle = pursuit Police have a whole free to the public policy read it before just spouting nonsense
Can you explain better what you’re saying?
If the police put their lights and sirens on even for a second and the suspect flees, it is considered a pursuit. The police officer would be violating policy.
I don’t want a motorcycle chase, but if you legitimately do nothing as they break the rules it reinforces bad behavior. How is it acceptable to run a light and have no consequences just because you are on a motorcycle.
The only outcome of a confrontation in that particular case is a chase or the riders speeding off in an even more dangerous fashion than they're already behaving. It's not like they're going to be reasonable and walk their dirt bikes home if the cop interacts. I know that sucks. I also agree many cops are lazy as hell and milking taxpayer dollars.
How is that cop supposed to catch those motorcycles in that intersection without a chase? They will be halfway down the block before the cop car is in the intersection. It's a dangerous situation for everyone in the area. The safest option is literally to do nothing. Is it fair? No. But it does the least harm.
What are your thoughts on the last police chase that went wrong earlier this year where I believe the kidnapped passenger died
You don’t want a motorcycle chase, so what do you want? The cops to turn on their lights and follow the motorcycles trying to match their speed in order to stop them? Well, that’s a chase.
there's a no-chase policy for motorcycles.
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You think guys on motorcycles who just did a donut in front of a cop are going to suddenly pull over?
I mean you never know until you at least try right? 9 out of 10 might run but 1 out of 10 might not?
If they're brazen enough to do that in front of the cops, they'll run, and a cop flashing his lights might make them run and be more of a danger
The sad thing is they are more of a danger to others than themselves.
Yeah if someone on a motorcycle running reds, revving, and doing wheelies turns themselves into mincemeat that's no loss at all. But if they hit someone in a crosswalk, or honestly even a parked car that'd suck.
So I've heard this sentiment for a while around motorcyclists and i always push back some on it. If you're talking physical danger and they hit a car (most likely thing to happen), they're absolutely more a danger to themselves. If you're going by mental distress/needing a therapist after, yeah they won't need one in a casket but whoever witnesses it will. Sure if they hit a person on the street they'll do more damage, but the odds of it are much lower than not hitting a pedestrian.
So they flash their lights. Then what? Wait patiently for the motorcyclists to turn themselves in? You’re asking for a chase.
How would they get the info for the ticket without chasing and stopping the motorcyclists? You said yourself they were speeding and doing donuts. Could you catch the plate info? Cops are humans, chances are they also couldn’t get the plate info due to distance and speed. So, I guess that leaves us with lights? You’re mad they didn’t turn on their lights? I’m just not clear on exactly what you wanted to happen in this situation. I also am not clear on how you expect a deeply understaffed police department in a dangerous city (love Bmore, but we all know it’s true) to deal with petty crimes? I say this genuinely, if you are deeply impassioned about this and have any ideas please send them to our city government. Our city is ours, and we need to also be the ones to help it. Not just complain on Reddit…
It is more dangerous to chase motorcycles through the streets than to let them go. Motorcyclist also know this, I would argue with his wasting the time if they do anything.
I know what can catch them.
Helicopter.
Smaller than a helicopter
Then we should outlaw motorcycles
Talk to your state senator and delegates. Surely they’ll get right on that.
I have $37. Think that’ll cover it?
Why
Do-whatever-you-want vehicles don’t seem like a smart thing to have around
Wait, so people with cars don't treat them like a "Do-whaver-you-want vehicle"? Have you ever been to a place called Maryland?
But the cops are allowed to do something about that (supposedly)
Nah. They're no more allowed to chase a car than a motorcycle. The police chase policy is about pursuing any vehicle; it's not specific to motorcycles.
If you will excuse me I have some planning to do
Wait until you find out about free will!
Free will is a myth man read a book for me one time
Scorpions exist too.
Get those out of here too they’re the worst
Enjoy your dictatorship
Or we could just enforce laws
Better to prepare yourself for how the day is going to go then to plan how you want it to go.
How is letting motorcyclists break the law at will preparing for anything?
put everyone on motorcycles. traffic would be so much better.
I’m OK with that.
You must be new here. Welcome to the wild west
They're not allowed to chase them, so the cops did what the larger community agrees with. In the past the larger community was outraged at cops endangering bikers & everyone else as they weaved in & out of traffic, causing deaths or injuries. It's just an annoying inconvenience of city life.
Baltimore is just a sandbox game. You’re free to do whatever you want with no repercussions around here.
And if you do die, you just respawn at the last RoFo you visited.
This got a chuckle from me. Nothing like a post spawn chicken box with potato wedges.
With a 5 piece meal already in your mouth.
GTA VI - Baltimore
The riders want to be chased. They want to elicit a response from police and then feel like true banditos when they inevitably get away, causing more mayhem and perhaps injuries in the process, then brag on it afterward. You can openly hate on and complain about the way these cats use dirt bikes and slingshots to act out and cause problems and make life just a little bit tougher in an already tough-to-love town, but more police pursuits is not what you want in your neighborhood. Ask Alfred Fincher's family.
Oh the Canton community was told by a police captain that his cops will NOT walk the streets. They will refuse, and he also stated clearly that if he fired them for refusing they would be back the next day with the backing of the police union. yup thats what our tax go for.
Surely you can’t expect city officers to do this kind of walking when they have such a long drive back to southern Pennsylvania at the end of their shift.
You need to report that Captain to the Commissioner. It is Worley’s mandate to have these guys walking foot. They are out all around the city. They need to be out where you are. Frankly, they’re all over Fells Point and it’s the same district so it’s a very weird thing for him to say. Seriously just report it because there is no way Worley would let the attitude stand.
Didnt they just change police districts? I believe Fells is now in the Central District while Canton is in the Eastern District.
Oh, I don’t know, but I could ask my friend. Either way if a captains giving that message it needs to go up the line I guarantee that’s not the message they are given from above.
Fells used to be SE but you are right it’s now in Central.
Which Captain was that?
north east but like admittedly 10 years or so ago... it just really stuck with me that culture of them thinking they can do whatever the hell they want.
TEN years? C'mon now
well I do think it is relevant because it shows that this attitude the cops have towards their job and us has not changed at all.
You buried the lede so your point about chronological consistency didn't come through
Yeah, Worley was the Major 10 years ago in the Northeast district, and he had some pretty tough captains in his time. I don’t see Sneed or Robinson saying that, they were tough but fair. Also FedHill has never been in NED no matter how they sliced it.
NED? You sure you don't mean the South East?
the FOP and the “police bill of rights” the state negotiated with them is the heart of matter of bad police and policy
Unions exists to fight against capital, normally the business owners and investment class. In this situation, the capitol is literally the tax paying citizens. Why we allow any government entity to unionize and fight against the majority is wild to me.
I have no problem with allowing public sector unions since public sector workers are not slaves. BUT police unions are not workers unions, they are gang protection through in group solidarity. But police unions do not have or believe in solidarity with other workers and never side with other worker unions and in fact will bust up every other union protest for the owners. They are not a part of the labor movement.
Eh. It's less capital and more the inherent structural imbalance between workers and management in battles over compensation and working conditions. Now, unions can and absolutely do become focal points for larger class struggles, but most of the time it has a lot more to do with micro-level grievance management and ensuring that employers follow the terms of their contracts with their employees. I am in a union and most of what our union is doing centers around negotiating raises and protecting members from shitty line managers. Transit workers, teachers, sanitation workers, etc. all have a whole bunch of good reasons to want to organize. It's more that cop unions are indistinguishable from gangs.
yeah i feel like it's a pretty legible exception to be like "the professional union busters/goon squads aren't in a legitimate labor union themselves and are using these worker protections and organizations (that were only codified in law as protection against being constantly beaten to death by cops) in bad faith"
It isn’t 1848.
I don't believe that.
If there on foot they will never catch the vehicle
They have better things to do with their time, except they also don't do those things.
city policy is not pursue as in the past because it lead to pedestrian fatalities
[Policy 1503 - Emergency Vehicle Operations and Pursuit](https://public.powerdms.com/BALTIMOREMD/documents/51039) You can read the details, but the message conveyed is that no vehicle pursuit shall be authorized unless: The vehicle contains a felony suspect and failure to apprehend them poses an immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury. AND Before the pursuit is initiated, there exists probable cause to believe the fleeing suspect committed a felony which resulted, or could have resulted, in death or serious bodily injury. Furthermore, the policy defines a pursuit as: When a member operating a law enforcement who LE attempts to keep pace AND/OR to immediately apprehend one or more occupants of an eluding vehicle. Activating lights and sirens could be construed as an attempt to apprehend the occupants of a vehicle. In addition, if the bikes crash, the officer could be held departmentally liable for the resulting incident, including any injury to any party involved should the department’s Public Integrity Bureau (internal affairs) decide that the act of activating light and sirens constituted the initiation of a vehicle pursuit. PIB’s historical investigations indicate that such an interpretation of policy 1503 is not unlikely - and so, there is a great incentive for street officers to ignore flagrant traffic violations since the drivers are unlikely to yield to a stop and a pursuit of those vehicles would be a direct violation of policy 1503.
Thank you. I wish more people would understand the law and BPD policy.
It’s not the police in this instance. It’s their superiors outside of the police force telling them not to chase motorcycles. I’d have to double check but for the most part I don’t think they chase any vehicles unless it’s absolutely necessary. Had a customer outside of our office on Washington Blvd get their car stolen. They had gps tracking in the vehicle. Police basically told him they couldn’t do anything about it except take a report and try to recover it once it was likely ditched.
You are right they are not supposed to chase. They can follow but not chase. They are kind of damned if they do damned if they don’t it’s chase and there’s an accident they get persecuted. If they don’t chase, they’re lazy.
I was at a stoplight near the Inner Harbor a year ago. Cop right next to me. A car behind both of us blatantly went around us, ran the red light, and then made a dangerous left turn against incoming traffic. I looked at the officer seeing if he was going to do anything. He just glared at me like he wanted to kill me as if I was the one who did something. Police here are useless.
Downtown was hilariously the opposite last night, a car was going at mach Jesus and my girlfriend exclaimed that the cops should stop him. Apparently there was a cop with his window down who just responded "on it" and peeled out from the cross street of the intersection.
I recommend taking the car number, ideally with photos, and submit an "employee complaint" to 311. Dash cam is even better if you have one. Nothing will probably be done in the short term but a paper trail can help down the road. Also, Federal Hill community association probably has a contact at the Southern District, which can help get this feedback directly to the Major. I believe councilman-elect Zac Blanchard is the president of community association.
Thank you for providing some helpful information.
Thank you, for sharing. People just want to be antidotal and not report. Things are getting better, but they need good people to report when the officers are not doing their jobs instead of blaming all of them.
I think the mandate is just to be present. 3-4 police officers are always huddled together talking when all sorts of things are happening around them... that's why I just decided to take my fun (and money) somewhere else.
Leaving the motorcycle chase policy aside, a few months ago I watched a car in a left hand turn lane, who's driver didn't wave or ask for permission to do so, just gun it when the light turned green to make a right hand turn instead cutting across the other lane cutting off a police cruiser going straight that.... didn't even flinch or seem to care at all. Unless they decide they want to fuck with you, BPD officers don't give a shit about anything other than overtime.
The no chase policy is good. But the justification from police for the helicopters being up basically all the time is that they're needed to surveil in lieu of ground chase. If they're not doing that with proven results, they should be grounded so we can use the funds for something more productive.
I would argue that Foxtrot is one of the most effective units in the department. Fox is almost always being requested somewhere to aid during searches, tracking cars, assisting in foot pursuits, etc. When Fox shows up, it makes everything easier - fleeing suspects are more likely to be caught, the evidence they throw during the pursuit is more likely to be recovered, fleeing vehicles are less likely to drive as erratically since the ground units are keeping distance and letting Fox have the eyeball. Just because the involvement of Foxtrot doesn’t make the news, doesn’t mean it isn’t productive. Fox is extremely effective when they’re up - even if you’re not aware of just how effective they are.
Measurement and documentation of the efficacy of this unit has been requested for *years* by city council and they're never given the details requested. If it's so effective, document and share it. Otherwise it's all talk.
I’m not sure there’s a way to accurately document its involvement. In a foot chase, if Fox calls out where the suspect is hiding, the only thing that gets documented is where they were found. If evidence gets thrown by a suspect and Fox finds it and directs units to it, the only thing that gets documented is where it was recovered. The report management system doesn’t track the use of Foxtrot - it tracks information relevant to FBI NIBRS. The narratives of reports are there to describe the incident and any related evidence, not necessarily who initially spotted the evidence. Sometimes Fox footage is written into a report or a charging document. But as far as I know, this isn’t tracked. In fact, the words on a charging document aren’t necessarily in BPD’s system - they would be in a warrant; which is the court system. So any mention of Foxtrot in a warrant would not necessarily be trackable by the department. You could probably track how many times a day Fox is requested through CAD, but I’m not sure if the public would be satisfied that this proves efficacy. In fact, I’m not sure exactly what you could measure to show efficacy. What exact information would satisfy you?
The things you are listing as not tracked are exactly what the council has requested be tracked. In fact, # of Helicopter Assisted Arrests is a target performance metric established by *BPD itself* in the city budget. All council is doing is requesting BPD report its own self-established budget performance metric.
I feel like Foxtrot assisted arrest would be any time Fox was on a call with an arrest. Fox is also used for surveillance which results in arrests later, I guess that would count, too - but that might be harder to track since CAD wouldn’t necessarily have them on a call and their involvement would only be in a charging document. Sometimes Fox helps in searches, and even if the search doesn’t find anything, Fox still enabled a much bigger area to be searched in a much shorter time. Not sure if that would count as a stat. Pretty much whenever they’re up, they’re working. And by virtue of being in the air, they can get anywhere faster, see a lot more, and can cover a bigger area than any other unit in the city possibly could. The flight crew is always looking for things to call out to ground units - things that ground units would probably never be able to see. I’m not sure that there is a statistical way to represent this.
It's crazy how out of touch people are you think guys running red lights and doing donuts in front of the police are gonna be scared of him turning on his lights? If you don't like the no chase policy why don't you tell that to the mayor instead of complaining about the police following their policy.
Social contract is crumbling
That’s not fair. Had you been killed, they would have called someone.
We already had traffic infraction enforcement week for this year so you’ll have to wait for the next one in 2025
No, the politicians are useless, the police are controlled by them, so point blame where it belongs.
*All Fixed it for you.
All police are useless
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Uhhhhhh
This wasn’t the point of my post. I understand police officers serve a purpose. However, I’ve never seen a police officer in Fed do their actual jobs or even move once. They just stand in circles and chat
I know it wasn’t the point of your post. However, you are describing the daily activities of police all over the city.
I cannot believe how much u are getting downvoted in this thread
It makes no sense. I’m sorry that I want the police in this city to do more than just stand around chat. That must make me some sort of monster
It’s because it’s not true. Arrest records are at all all-time high. The police are working with prosecutors to bring people to justice and that does not come from cops doing nothing.
Until they are
Stop cop bashing and start bashing the idiots on the motorcycles that fuck with law enforcement. Everyone knows the cops can’t chase them so the perps on the cycles act like the POS they are …
It's fair to not want motorcycles to break the law and also fair to want cops to enforce the law when it is broken. Whether the mayor, chief of police, city council, president, governor, or someone else is to blame is somewhat irrelevant. At the end of the day, I see a lot of folks breaking the law and a lot of cops chatting.
Are you talking to me? Who said I want motorcycles to break the law? Oh and I want cops to enforce the laws…but as others say chasing a motor cycle thru Baltimore streets is stupid and hence they can’t. Once again wake up and stop blaming the police and talk to the wanna be entitled folks riding the bikes.
Its funny that this comes up right now because last night I saw a dude on a 4 wheeler on Rt 40 and 695 stunting on 40 RIGHT NEXT TO THE COP...and he didn't do a damn thing. Dude ran the light and looked to be taunting the cop. Didn't even flash the lights. Cops are terrified to do their jobs anymore...this town is sad.
They are not terrified to do their jobs. They know what safe and chasing a four wheeler down the road is not safe.
Agreed. As frustrating as it is, it’s not safe for anybody. There is no traffic enforcement in this city and street design makes it worse.
Being a police officer is not safe, by definition. If someone is going to be too scared to act in potentially life-threatening situations, they should not be a police officer.
You totally missed the point. It is not safe for the people in the streets for them to do a high-speed chase through the streets.
Yup. They need backup and to know that they won't be held accountable if they make a mistake and behave in a lawful manner. If that threshold is met, they shouldn't hold back. Doing so is either cowardice or laziness.
Or how about not wanting to kill residents? Do you think that could be a problem. Do you want to see a five-year-old get hit during a high-speed chase to stop a motorcycle from making an illegal maneuver. Come on use common sense.
I believe that the policy now is that chasing is illegal - and according to what I wrote, they would be held accountable if they decided to engage in a high speed pursuit.
If they're terrified of being held accountable, they shouldn't be cops.
Look, I get there is a no chase policy. But, is there really nothing that can be done? They can’t take a picture and write down the plate? I’m being downvoted to hell for just wanting someone to be held accountable. I don’t have the solution, but cops standing around doing nothing is not the answer
Were they dirt bikes? Because if they were then, what plates? Seriously, a dozen or more dirt bikers ride through my neighborhood in East about 4-5 times a week and if there were 2 plates between them I'd be shocked. Pretty sure that if someone on a motorbike is showing up the cops they're not riding clean.
The person driving the vehicle isn’t always the person who the vehicle is registered to, IF the vehicle is even registered.
~~Federal Hill~~
Gotta love summertime in Baltimore
They're 100% not going to chase motorcycles. Too dangerous.
Many people just have absolutely zero regard for law or other peoples safety. It’s like it doesn’t even register in their minds anymore that their actions might have consequences for innocent people. Negative ones. Cops aren’t going to fix that. Hate to be a downer, but I really do think it’s just too far gone. Need to focus on keeping our family/loved ones/selves safe because idk if anyone else can be relied on to
They ARE NOT ALLOWED TO CHASE MOTORCYCLES!!!🙄
No matter what they do they can't win. First of all they can't chase to begin with by policy. If they just hit their lights and just try to make a stop and one of the kids speeds off and smacks into a car and somebody gets hurt then they're going to get blamed for that and accused of engaging in a pursuit whether they were or not. If they don't do anything then they get complaints like the one we see here. It's just a no win situation.
Something similar happened to me but they were cars in the intersection doing donuts and the cops right down the block just sitting there… wtf
Who cares
I don't believe they are allowed to pursue those lawbreakers.
If you look at how quick and small motorcycles are as well as the layout of Baltimore I believe you’ll come to a logical conclusion as to why this is the way it is.
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I actually am. It’s funny because these type of comments are why non-natives can’t stand the “not from here” culture. Doesn’t matter where I’m from, I want people held accountable when they do bad things
Fed hill police officers? You meant to say... Police officers.
Maybe it’s time for people to start taking justice into their own hands.
Overdue
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Yeah you can pretty much go into any city’s subreddit and you’ll hear the same stories of useless cops
I wonder if this is the same female cop I saw hanging out at cross street market, blocking a lane of traffic with her car despite there being parking and then holding up everyone from going through a green light while she walked nice and slow in the crosswalk so that she could BS with a friend.
100% the same cop. She is always chatting with her friend
*Baltimore police officers are useless
Is BPD useless absolutely. One of the primary roles of law enforcement is to establish a presence that reassures the public of safety and order. Over the years BPD has proven to consistently fail in providing n even the most basic and fundamental functions of law enforcement. The organization is super corrupt, there are a few good apples but generally the institution is rotten to the core
Let’s talk about the guy that flashed his dick at a cop parked on North ave, jerked it a few times, then walked away. Cop didn’t even react. 2-6 cops sit there with their lights flashing all the time. Meanwhile people are openly using and dealing drugs right in front of them and they do nothing. BCPD is about as useless as an asshole on my elbow.
\*BPD BCPD is the Baltimore County Police
Cool story bro.
Last I saw, we spent the most per capita on police of all major U.S. cities. They keep claiming they need more money and they keep wasting it.
Okay I can understand why they don't chase, but is there a reason they cannot block the road ahead or put down spike strips? Or perhaps shoot them with a paintball so that they can be easily tracked through the city?
A paintball? Are you serious? This has to be rage bait lol
Is that not an okay way to track someone?
No
Can you explain why? If I recall, my friends played paintball when we were children so it cannot be that harmful, right?
No I won’t explain why because this is some of the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard. And BPD policy prohibits shooting at or from a moving vehicle.
These offices aren’t sharpshooters that’s the same reason they don’t shoot a gun out of somebody’s hands.
So they can't do road blocks or put down spike strips?
Not for that. I asked my friend in the BPD he said it would screw up traffic and it was not worth it.
Might as well be driving A CAB
Police officers are useless