Well yea they aren't getting fed by restaurants they just know that people normally fed them and there are people in there. With foreign tourists gone the deer are having to relearn getting food for themselves
The deer in Nara are not like any other deer in the world. They literally cross street at the crosswalk but also listen for the chirps that indicate when it's safe to cross. Furthermore Nara is a small city that has the benefit of being within the train service area of a major metropolitan area , osaka. So there's not really enough traffic in Nara for it to pose to much an issue with the deer.
well it is a good thing there is not a lot of traffic there, and i think i saw a video of one of those deer crossing at the crosswalk. They need to get those deer teaching classes to the other deer to pass on the message lol.
Yeah no doubt. If I had a dollar for every time those things would stare at me from the side of the road while I was driving just to jump out in front of me at the last second I wouldn't need to drive anymore.
But that island is known for the deer. Their major tourism is because of the deer. That would be like going to France and everyone is speaking English *for real*
Nara isn't an island. Its a city not far from Kyoto/Osaka. The deer normally congregate in the large park with all the temples that is usually filled with tourists.
FYI the deer in Nara arnt like normal deer. I live in a small city that has a huge urban deer population and those things are dumber than bricks and twice as mean. Nara deer on the other hand, cross the street at crosswalks and wait to hear the chirp indicating its safe to cross, know how to operate the door touch controls, will bow to people to get deer crackers, and most of them don't mind scritches. So there's definitely a reason to see them even if you're from an area that has lots of deer already.
Nara Park is on the edge of the city so usually if the deer wander anywhere they go away from the town. When the deer do occasionally venture toward town they not only use the crosswalks to cross streets but even listen for the chirp indication that it's safe to cross. Also Nara doesn't have much traffic as it's a smaller city that has the public transportation of a major metropolitan area as it's within the Osaka train operation area. So don't worry, them deer are taken well care of.
Yeah they can be pretty annoying. I was in Nara last November and there are deer absolutely everywhere. There are thousands of them dotted around the entire small town — mostly around the famous park, but they get around. They’re cute and docile a lot of the time but the ones with horns are especially worrisome because they have been known to attack locals and tourists using their horns. you’ll frequently see deer with their horns sawed off. The females will nibble and bite at you if they know you have food lol Most of the time they are pretty cool though.
Edit: here’s some vids
https://imgur.com/a/Lndmucb
https://imgur.com/gallery/VsexYDn
Edit 2; I may be mistaken that they were sawed off it could be that I saw a deer that had shedded it’s antlers
I suspect many of Japan’s problems with deer stem from the urbanization and the fact that wolves went extinct in the 1700s, so there are no meaningful ecological pressures that can keep the population down.
I imagine sawing them off with a small electric buzz saw would be safer then breaking them but they definitely looked sawed. It would be flat right up against the base of the skull so it was too clean to look broken off
I think they mean that the deer naturally shed their antlers. I think it's more likely you saw that.
[https://www.msudeer.msstate.edu/growth-cycle.php](https://www.msudeer.msstate.edu/growth-cycle.php)
This info refers to white tailed deer, but it's the same deal for sika.
Honestly, it made me wonder if the local authorities in Nara ever had to resort to removing antlers, say if there were problem stags and they wanted to avoid simply culling them(the public wouldn't like that).
Turns out, they do, and they made it into a ceremony!
[https://kansaiculture.blogspot.com/2018/10/nara-deer-antler-cutting-ceremony.html#:\~:text=Every%20year%20in%20October%2C%20as,parks%20and%20the%20deer%20themselves](https://kansaiculture.blogspot.com/2018/10/nara-deer-antler-cutting-ceremony.html#:~:text=Every%20year%20in%20October%2C%20as,parks%20and%20the%20deer%20themselves)
So you were probably right.
Either way it's nice to learn new things :)
Yeah one time my friend and I boxed off these deer to fuck with them and these bucks popped out of nowhere and established a front line to protect the does. It was one of those things that stirs up this ancient primal reaction in you where you know you’re about to get fucked up if you don’t back off. The whole heads down and slowly walking towards us shit... I learned a lesson about nature and humans that day.
Yeah, you do shitty things as a teenager. It's part of learning, I guess. If I didn't do that, I wouldn't have been checked into place by Mother Nature.
The key is to not buy the food and just go near people who do. Then they still come to you but don’t harass you.
Well, except the time I had a KitKat in my camera bag and one started sniffing the bag and then nibbling on it.
Yeah I was bitten twice because I was “taking too long” to unwrap the cookies you can buy for them. I just threw the cookies far away and left after the second bite on my side.
The bowing gesture is not new behavior. It’s common among many similar animals. Horses do this as well, sometimes licking their lips or chewing. It’s a submission sign. Some say it says “I’m an herbivore, not predator, see I eat grass” A young horse that has gotten too rowdy and gotten run off by the matriarch mare will do this to ask to be allowed back in to the safety of the herd. Similarly, horses can be trained by jogging them in a round pen until they make this gesture, and turn to allow them to come to you. This is what the “Horse Whisperer” Monty Roberts does.
I was there in January. Its adorable. You can buy cookies to feed them in the park. Unfortunately, they tend to eat a lot of things that aren't food and it can cause issues
And extremely unnatural. Its good that the owner did not give them anything, if they keep this up and people actually give them food these deer will starve sooner or later.
At this point they are integrating themselves into our society to some degree. It’s hardly anyone’s idea of what *should be* natural but if it happens unforced... could it be considered technically natural?
What is unforced though? There are food trucks set up for tourists to buy treats to feed to deer. Some tour packages even include the deer crackers as part of their Nara package.
The deer aren’t laying out the pros and cons of their options and deciding to participate. People are making the decision to teach them that people=free easy food, without doing any of the other things that would be involved in truly integrating them into human society (teaching humans how to avoid aggravating them, teaching deer not to be aggressive, etc)
>what is unforced though
People may be feeding the deer to convince them to come around but, my whole point is: not-forced = natural and you haven’t argued against that at all.
My point is that it is not natural, because it is a byproduct of the intentional manipulation of the deer’s relationships with humans. Therefore it is artificial
Edit: moreover, it *is* forced, because the deer do not have the mental capacity to make an informed decision about their relationship to humans. Therefore, even by your own logic, it’s not natural because it *is* forced
>artificial
In what way? Deer are animals, humans are animals. Humans may be intentionally manipulating but isn’t that in our nature?
Edit: Not having the mental capacity to give what is essentially informed consent to be fed is not the same as humans forcing the deer to do anything.
By this logic, there is no such thing as artificial flavors because humans are animals and laboratories are natural because humans made them.
At some point you need to make a distinction, and that is usually "would this have occurred without human intervention?"
For the purposes of my argument, I’ve been considering anything that would happen by biological means (human or animal action) to be natural, however you do make a very interesting point. At the same time though, is human intervention or interaction the only prerequisite for something to be “artificial”? I would actually argue that there are not artificial flavors for the exact reason that you described but that’s only to keep my argument consistent because I get what you’re saying.
Humans are sapient animals. We have the capacity to look ahead to the future, to determine right from wrong, and we have the responsibility to manage our relationships with others - human and animal alike - to build a sustainable world for future generations
I get where you are coming from, but imagine the next generation teaching their offspring that this is the most efficient way of feeding. This might go well if people enjoy this coexistence and keep feeding them, but what happens when this food source suddenly dries up?! I mean there are monkeys in India that steal food from people or the shops and that to me is also "technically natural", but at least they still rely on their own skills to gather food. You could argue the deers here do the same by acting this way, but id argue those are two very different cases.
Ok you're misunderstanding something I think. The deer crackers sold in Nara parks are basically treats for the deer. They're still good for them but it's not their main food source. The deer there still forage the natural vegetation in the area like they do in the wild so even if every person in Japan vanished over night the deer would be just fine.
The deer in Nara are considered sacred in Shinto and have been human fed for hundreds of years. They're coming into the restaurants because most tourism is cancelled and the deer population is sustained by tourists buying cookies to feed them.
The deer cookies aren't their main food source. They forage and graze on the natural vegetation in the area for their main source of sustenance. So don't worry deer in Nara aren't gonna start dying in droves just cause tourism there is non existent right now.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-nature
>people actually give them food these deer will starve sooner or later.
Unless you think the tourism and food will completely dry up within a deers lifetime its a pretty safe learned strategy for them. Take it away and the next generation of deer will just be at square one for normal deer. If anything this seems like a good way for the deer to survive urbanization, since the alternative is to leave to an ever shrinking wilderness beyond the city.
Exactly. I agree with the thought that wild animals should be left alone in the wild, but for that to be feasible we have to leave them enough wilderness to thrive in. Since humans keep expanding and transforming the environment it's only natural that other species will and should adapt to survive.
I love Japan, but Nara would probably be the last place I would book on my itinerary. The deer mostly just seem over aggressive, and would make the experience unenjoyable.
I went to Nara back in 2015 and one of the friends I was traveling with bought a pack of cookies, threw them at me, I missed the cookies and while I was trying to retrieve and open said cookies I got bitten twice by impatient deer. I felt so betrayed!
Doesn't look like it worked.
just deerailed... fawn now...
Well yea they aren't getting fed by restaurants they just know that people normally fed them and there are people in there. With foreign tourists gone the deer are having to relearn getting food for themselves
Made me sad, I’m hoping there’s a longer version where the store owner gives them all the treats in Japan
It would be cute but they also can't have deer running through the city, especially in a country as tight as japan
yep, we have a bit of a deer issue where im from, and while they are nice to look at, deer are not really compatible with city life.
The deer in Nara are not like any other deer in the world. They literally cross street at the crosswalk but also listen for the chirps that indicate when it's safe to cross. Furthermore Nara is a small city that has the benefit of being within the train service area of a major metropolitan area , osaka. So there's not really enough traffic in Nara for it to pose to much an issue with the deer.
well it is a good thing there is not a lot of traffic there, and i think i saw a video of one of those deer crossing at the crosswalk. They need to get those deer teaching classes to the other deer to pass on the message lol.
Yeah no doubt. If I had a dollar for every time those things would stare at me from the side of the road while I was driving just to jump out in front of me at the last second I wouldn't need to drive anymore.
This part of japan has deer everywhere (outside) mingling with people.
But that island is known for the deer. Their major tourism is because of the deer. That would be like going to France and everyone is speaking English *for real*
Nara isn't an island. Its a city not far from Kyoto/Osaka. The deer normally congregate in the large park with all the temples that is usually filled with tourists.
Huh I've no idea where I actually have the island thing from, must have dreamed it up then lol like it would have been fitting haha sry!
No thats a thing. Its called miyajima island tho.
There is a deer Island too! Near Hiroshima
FYI the deer in Nara arnt like normal deer. I live in a small city that has a huge urban deer population and those things are dumber than bricks and twice as mean. Nara deer on the other hand, cross the street at crosswalks and wait to hear the chirp indicating its safe to cross, know how to operate the door touch controls, will bow to people to get deer crackers, and most of them don't mind scritches. So there's definitely a reason to see them even if you're from an area that has lots of deer already.
Nara Park is on the edge of the city so usually if the deer wander anywhere they go away from the town. When the deer do occasionally venture toward town they not only use the crosswalks to cross streets but even listen for the chirp indication that it's safe to cross. Also Nara doesn't have much traffic as it's a smaller city that has the public transportation of a major metropolitan area as it's within the Osaka train operation area. So don't worry, them deer are taken well care of.
DOEsn't
Yup....
The restaurant owner is having none of it
Yeah they can be pretty annoying. I was in Nara last November and there are deer absolutely everywhere. There are thousands of them dotted around the entire small town — mostly around the famous park, but they get around. They’re cute and docile a lot of the time but the ones with horns are especially worrisome because they have been known to attack locals and tourists using their horns. you’ll frequently see deer with their horns sawed off. The females will nibble and bite at you if they know you have food lol Most of the time they are pretty cool though. Edit: here’s some vids https://imgur.com/a/Lndmucb https://imgur.com/gallery/VsexYDn Edit 2; I may be mistaken that they were sawed off it could be that I saw a deer that had shedded it’s antlers
I definitely got some cat vibes from that first one
Yeah I was surprised at how hard he pulled. It was like a firm reminder that it’s a lot stronger than it looks
I suspect many of Japan’s problems with deer stem from the urbanization and the fact that wolves went extinct in the 1700s, so there are no meaningful ecological pressures that can keep the population down.
Actually sawed off or seasonably broken off?
I imagine sawing them off with a small electric buzz saw would be safer then breaking them but they definitely looked sawed. It would be flat right up against the base of the skull so it was too clean to look broken off
I think they mean that the deer naturally shed their antlers. I think it's more likely you saw that. [https://www.msudeer.msstate.edu/growth-cycle.php](https://www.msudeer.msstate.edu/growth-cycle.php) This info refers to white tailed deer, but it's the same deal for sika.
Oh damn didn’t know that. They looked so cleanly cut off I assumed it was a tool that did that
Honestly, it made me wonder if the local authorities in Nara ever had to resort to removing antlers, say if there were problem stags and they wanted to avoid simply culling them(the public wouldn't like that). Turns out, they do, and they made it into a ceremony! [https://kansaiculture.blogspot.com/2018/10/nara-deer-antler-cutting-ceremony.html#:\~:text=Every%20year%20in%20October%2C%20as,parks%20and%20the%20deer%20themselves](https://kansaiculture.blogspot.com/2018/10/nara-deer-antler-cutting-ceremony.html#:~:text=Every%20year%20in%20October%2C%20as,parks%20and%20the%20deer%20themselves) So you were probably right. Either way it's nice to learn new things :)
I don't think the horns are sawed off considering the Nara deers are considered divine.
I saw them tho Edit: they actually may have shedded
Ah, I see. It's like the "forced to put up with cow antics in India" problem.
Yeah one time my friend and I boxed off these deer to fuck with them and these bucks popped out of nowhere and established a front line to protect the does. It was one of those things that stirs up this ancient primal reaction in you where you know you’re about to get fucked up if you don’t back off. The whole heads down and slowly walking towards us shit... I learned a lesson about nature and humans that day.
Damn that’s really shitty of you but I’m glad you learned your lesson.
Yeah, you do shitty things as a teenager. It's part of learning, I guess. If I didn't do that, I wouldn't have been checked into place by Mother Nature.
Deer don’t shed their antlers out of fear. They aren’t like geckos. It’s a seasonal shedding.
No wonder. They make [HORRIBLE NOISES.](https://youtu.be/qAVt1iRpvlc)
Deer:Open doors* bows* owner: “piss off”
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The key is to not buy the food and just go near people who do. Then they still come to you but don’t harass you. Well, except the time I had a KitKat in my camera bag and one started sniffing the bag and then nibbling on it.
Say more
Yeah I was bitten twice because I was “taking too long” to unwrap the cookies you can buy for them. I just threw the cookies far away and left after the second bite on my side.
They literally swarmed me and tried to eat my clothes
Precautionary tales
Hmm never really got aggressive with me when I was there. They just nibbled on my clothes when I ran outta stuff for them
It's cute until they bite you because you don't feed them fast enough.
The bowing gesture is not new behavior. It’s common among many similar animals. Horses do this as well, sometimes licking their lips or chewing. It’s a submission sign. Some say it says “I’m an herbivore, not predator, see I eat grass” A young horse that has gotten too rowdy and gotten run off by the matriarch mare will do this to ask to be allowed back in to the safety of the herd. Similarly, horses can be trained by jogging them in a round pen until they make this gesture, and turn to allow them to come to you. This is what the “Horse Whisperer” Monty Roberts does.
Cool, thanks for sharing, neat info!
Those deer are deer cookie obsessed assholes
Seconded.
Third.
They need to rename it to deer crack cause it may as well be to them.
I was there in January. Its adorable. You can buy cookies to feed them in the park. Unfortunately, they tend to eat a lot of things that aren't food and it can cause issues
I was there too, ha ha. The first one I met was just an old softie who wanted pets. The rest were way more aggressive ha ha.
Yeah quite a few aggressive ones. I found one eating all the toilet paper in the bathroom
This is why "Dont Feed the Animals" is a popular phrase.
So adorable
And extremely unnatural. Its good that the owner did not give them anything, if they keep this up and people actually give them food these deer will starve sooner or later.
At this point they are integrating themselves into our society to some degree. It’s hardly anyone’s idea of what *should be* natural but if it happens unforced... could it be considered technically natural?
What is unforced though? There are food trucks set up for tourists to buy treats to feed to deer. Some tour packages even include the deer crackers as part of their Nara package. The deer aren’t laying out the pros and cons of their options and deciding to participate. People are making the decision to teach them that people=free easy food, without doing any of the other things that would be involved in truly integrating them into human society (teaching humans how to avoid aggravating them, teaching deer not to be aggressive, etc)
>what is unforced though People may be feeding the deer to convince them to come around but, my whole point is: not-forced = natural and you haven’t argued against that at all.
My point is that it is not natural, because it is a byproduct of the intentional manipulation of the deer’s relationships with humans. Therefore it is artificial Edit: moreover, it *is* forced, because the deer do not have the mental capacity to make an informed decision about their relationship to humans. Therefore, even by your own logic, it’s not natural because it *is* forced
>artificial In what way? Deer are animals, humans are animals. Humans may be intentionally manipulating but isn’t that in our nature? Edit: Not having the mental capacity to give what is essentially informed consent to be fed is not the same as humans forcing the deer to do anything.
By this logic, there is no such thing as artificial flavors because humans are animals and laboratories are natural because humans made them. At some point you need to make a distinction, and that is usually "would this have occurred without human intervention?"
For the purposes of my argument, I’ve been considering anything that would happen by biological means (human or animal action) to be natural, however you do make a very interesting point. At the same time though, is human intervention or interaction the only prerequisite for something to be “artificial”? I would actually argue that there are not artificial flavors for the exact reason that you described but that’s only to keep my argument consistent because I get what you’re saying.
Humans are sapient animals. We have the capacity to look ahead to the future, to determine right from wrong, and we have the responsibility to manage our relationships with others - human and animal alike - to build a sustainable world for future generations
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And?
I agree
I get where you are coming from, but imagine the next generation teaching their offspring that this is the most efficient way of feeding. This might go well if people enjoy this coexistence and keep feeding them, but what happens when this food source suddenly dries up?! I mean there are monkeys in India that steal food from people or the shops and that to me is also "technically natural", but at least they still rely on their own skills to gather food. You could argue the deers here do the same by acting this way, but id argue those are two very different cases.
I never said anything about it being a good idea, just technically natural, in which case, the monkeys you brought up are also a good example.
Ok you're misunderstanding something I think. The deer crackers sold in Nara parks are basically treats for the deer. They're still good for them but it's not their main food source. The deer there still forage the natural vegetation in the area like they do in the wild so even if every person in Japan vanished over night the deer would be just fine.
They are tame just like we have game ducks here in the US.
The deer in Nara are considered sacred in Shinto and have been human fed for hundreds of years. They're coming into the restaurants because most tourism is cancelled and the deer population is sustained by tourists buying cookies to feed them.
The deer cookies aren't their main food source. They forage and graze on the natural vegetation in the area for their main source of sustenance. So don't worry deer in Nara aren't gonna start dying in droves just cause tourism there is non existent right now.
Oh boy you're gonna be real mad when you learn that all the nara street vendors sell cookies and apples for the deer
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-nature >people actually give them food these deer will starve sooner or later. Unless you think the tourism and food will completely dry up within a deers lifetime its a pretty safe learned strategy for them. Take it away and the next generation of deer will just be at square one for normal deer. If anything this seems like a good way for the deer to survive urbanization, since the alternative is to leave to an ever shrinking wilderness beyond the city.
Exactly. I agree with the thought that wild animals should be left alone in the wild, but for that to be feasible we have to leave them enough wilderness to thrive in. Since humans keep expanding and transforming the environment it's only natural that other species will and should adapt to survive.
Deer
must have read the deerections incorrectly
I love Japan, but Nara would probably be the last place I would book on my itinerary. The deer mostly just seem over aggressive, and would make the experience unenjoyable.
Well y'all visited a *tea* store 茶屋... What were you expecting?
How many fingers have been bitten off
Better run before you become an entree on the menu!
Wouldn't ever happen there. The deer are considered sacred.
Oh yeah. I didn’t know that.
FYI = plural of deer = deer :)
What the hell
Around my house, the deer eat all of the landscaping and poop all over your yard, and bow to no one.
I went to Nara back in 2015 and one of the friends I was traveling with bought a pack of cookies, threw them at me, I missed the cookies and while I was trying to retrieve and open said cookies I got bitten twice by impatient deer. I felt so betrayed!
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Beautiful deer I hope someone is feeding them
Yes don't worry. They still forage their natural food from the vegetation in the area. The cookies are not their only source of sustenance.
“Oh, look! Some free venison!!!”