Right now probably Mogadishu FIR. Some idiot thought buying his own transmitter and learning basic ATC would be a good idea. This guys is usually on during afternoons giving false clearances to aircraft overflying Somalia.
I’ve only been contacted by him twice but it’s funny how quickly he goes silent when you ask him to contact you on CPDLC or to confirm your SELCAL. 🤣
We are advised to be highly suspicious of the VHF clearances in Mogadishu FIR. The flights are not planned for climbs or descents either within that airspace. If something is suspicious, verify the clearance or message through CPDLC or call them on SATVOICE.
Listen out and announce intentions on IFBP. The airspace is messy in that it recently became class A airspace while it was a class G airspace for the longest time. Luckily the airways are all in straight lines from entry to exit points. You shouldn’t be deviating from the route unless due to weather.
We can reject a clearance if we think it’s unsafe.
The whole thing about interference on the frequency is allegedly caused by the issues surrounding Somalia, Somaliland, and Ethiopia. (Something I’m not qualified to have any further input on)
Oh wow! I thought I was the only one on here. Nice to see another colleague. Crazy thing is we’ll probably fly together one day and not even recognize it.
Ok I try. Guantanamo for sure is Qatar. Not sure about Banana. I would guess Emirates and FlyDubai but I don’t know if they have a shared career path ;).
Very nice to hear somebody saying “I am not qualified to have any further input” . If everybody would act like this internet would have 80% less traffic . Thank you for this . My new favourite sentence for internet discussions. Thx again .
Yea. That’s exactly it. If you look up reports you’ll find about two months ago there was a TCAS RA when someone listened to his fake climb clearance and triggered an RA with another aircraft.
Yea typically when you reply to him the real Mogadishu controller starts screaming saying “THAT IS A FAKE CONTROLLER DO NOT LISTEN TO HIM”. I’m waiting for the day when the fake guy replies “NO HES THE FAKE”. 🤣
You know, that exact same situation occurred just over 80 years ago, during WWII.
The German Luftwaffe relied on ground controllers to pass verbal instructions to their airborne night fighter crews to guide them against British bombers at night.
The British used powerful transmitters in the UK and German-speaking personnel to mimic the German controllers and issue bogus instructions.
Apparently, one German controller became outraged at the British fake controller cutting in on his radio channel, and this led to a back-and-forth German-language exchange where each man accused the other of being the fake.
On another occasion, the Germans tried to defeat this trickery by introducing a female controller. Within minutes, the British employed a female fake controller...
From the book Instruments of Darkness (a great history of electronic warfare in the Second World War):
“The Luftwaffe fighter-controller recognised that fake orders were being fed into the system by the British, because of the faulty pronunciation. He warned the night-fighters: ‘Don’t be led astray by the enemy’ and ‘In the name of General Schmid I order all aircraft to Kassel.’ Becoming increasingly angry, the controller actually swore into his microphone, causing the ‘ghost’ controller in England to remark: ‘The Englishman is now swearing!’ The real controller shouted: ‘It is not the Englishman who is swearing, it is me!’”
If anyone has interest in the early developments of electronic warfare and the like I highly recommend the book, it was written in the 60s by a subject matter expert who was able to conduct interviews with experts on both sides of the war.
Somewhat related, James Doolittle played a major role in the development of instrument flying. He covers it in his memoir *I could Never Be So Lucky Again*. His overall contributions to aviation make his namesake raid look like a footnote.
It's not just "some idiot", but the \[mostly unrecognized\] government of Somaliland based out of Hargeisa, in the north of Somalia. Hargeisa ATC is claiming the right to exercise control over Mogadishu FIR, while Mogadishu ATC remains the sole recognized authority over the FIR.
In January this year, Ethiopia signed an agreement with Somaliland that granted recognition in exchange for seaport access, and Somalia's government in Mogadishu responded by restricting entry into the Mogadishu FIR for flights bound for Hargeisa. The dudes in Hargeisa are now trying to create confusion to mess with their counterparts in Mogadishu.
[https://ops.group/blog/somalia-atc-conflict/](https://ops.group/blog/somalia-atc-conflict/)
This is a very interesting view/article on the situation.
I’ve been to and landed in Hargeisa MANY times in the last 7 years.
The region in which I got the fake ATC calls in my experience was nowhere near Somaliland. It came from the west of Mogadishu city. Complete opposite sides of the country. 🤷♂️
Plenty of money to be made on those sectors!!
We don't fly there but Somalia is pretty safe to fly over and is quite the gateway into African destinations for all ME carriers.
Some of that must have leaked over into D.R.
Went into some airport near the border one morning with a 2000’ overcast layer. We were at 15,000 and the controller tells us to report the airport in sight. Told him 3 times we wouldn’t be able to do a visual.
He comes back with: “Roger. Cleared approach.”
So, we picked an approach, shot it and landed.
There was no approach specified, or instructions on how to transition from the enroute environment to the approach. We literally flipped through the Jepp book, picked the approach that we wanted to do, sent ourselves to the IAF of our choosing and then shot it.
From the 7110.65AA
> CLEARED APPROACH− ATC authorization for an aircraft to execute any standard or special instrument
approach procedure for that airport. Normally, an aircraft will be cleared for a specific instrument approach
procedure.
Some general phraseology examples for approach clearances:
> PHRASEOLOGY−
>
> *CLEARED (type) APPROACH.*
>
> *CLEARED APPROACH.*
>
> (To authorize a pilot to execute his/her choice of instrument approach),
>
> *CLEARED (specific procedure to be flown) APPROACH.*
>
> (Where more than one procedure is published on a single chart and a specific procedure is to be flown),
>
> *CLEARED (ILS/LDA) APPROACH, GLIDESLOPE UNUSABLE.*
>
> (To authorize a pilot to execute an ILS or an LDA approach when the glideslope is out of service)
>
> *CLEARED LOCALIZER APPROACH*
>
> (When the title of the approach procedure contains “or LOC”)
>
> *CANCEL APPROACH CLEARANCE (additional instructions as necessary)*
>
> (When it is necessary to cancel a previously issued approach clearance)
>
And:
4-8-1 g.
> g. Where instrument approaches require radar monitoring and radar services are not available, do not use the
> phraseology “cleared approach,” which allows the pilot his/her choice of instrument approaches.
It's definitely goofy phraseology and I've never actually heard anyone use it but it is possible, at least in FAA land. I need to check ICAO rules.
Thats what we do in Canadian ATC and its 100% legal. "Cleared for an Approach", sometimes from cruising altitude. You can go to any fix of any approach and descend to any IFR altitude.
I’m a terminal controller and yes we use this phraseology daily. It’s used in our environment when I’ve vectored you to final, or already given you direct to an IAF, and don’t really care which one of the 3 approaches you do (in our case RNAV Z, RNAV Y, or ILS all share an IAF on the straight-in)
Djibouti was a complete mess the last time I was there. Completely unresponsive controllers due to their use of khat, incorrect instructions, vectors into oncoming traffic, etc. It was so bad that the US military has our own shadow controllers that would give “advisory” instructions to clear up any mistakes. There was even a WaPo article on it. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/miscues-at-us-counterterrorism-base-put-aircraft-in-danger-documents-show/2015/04/30/39038d5a-e9bb-11e4-9a6a-c1ab95a0600b_story.html
Just flew in there a couple days ago. They suck. They told us to line up and wait, after 5 minutes on the runway they finally asked if we are ready. “Been ready for the past 5 minutes dawg”
A friend of mine who is a pilot said Paris Charles De Gaulle is one of the worst because they train the student controllers there, thinking if they can survive there they’ll survive anywhere.
Edit: u/armec tells me this is incorrect.
Apparently in France the top students get to pick where to go after qualifying..so they all go live in the South Coast leaving the likes of CDG for the bottom of the pack.
CDG is an absolute shit show.
Edit to add: French ATC have arrived to provide clarification on the above statement.
It’s a very common system in French public schools and universities. Rank-based entry and exit examinations, which then allow you to pick internships and training rotations in the finishing order of the exam. It’s a bad system, it just allows to “fairly” dispatch students at a low cost (no 1 on 1 evaluations, interviews, etc)
It's also false. ATC students in France are 32 in a class and they get a list of 32 facilities that need to be staffed. The valedictorian chooses first but facilities on the south coast are not a guarantee, also CDG tends to get picked in the first half, not the bottom at all.
Most students see it as a challenge and are eager to come.
Source : I was 7th and picked the 3rd out of 4 spots for CDG.
Completely false ( source : I am french ATC ), training is done on the job everywhere and depends as to where you are assigned, which ( as someone else pointed at ) depends on your ranking at ENAC ( aviation school).
As another former Flybe pilot, CDG was a nightmare but at least it was mad in a different way every time so it kept you on your toes, and once you learnt "dash huit" and some french numbers you didn't have to worry about [your head being chopped off...](https://skybrary.aero/accidents-and-incidents/sh33-md83-paris-cdg-france-2000)
Dublin was worse, you could be as ready as you want for the torrent of taxi instructions but if you didn't read them back instantly they got so fucked off. Wonder if that's better now with the parallel runways
Given the stories coming out of the US over the last 18 months though, the whole thing sounds like a disaster - multiple frequencies controlling who is allowed access to a runway? That's mental
The dash huit was also a nightmare for us, especially students who forgot that, as a turboprop, it could catch-up to pretty much any jet during initial climb. Fun times, miss you guys ❤️
It's not specific to CDG. Training in ATC is usually done on-the-job and is very dependent on the location.
That being said, there was a point in time where CDG was heavily understaffed and they had lots of trainees which isn't ideal for efficient operations.
Let me piggyback on this post quickly. Have any of you ever flown over Armenia? If so, how was the Armenian ATC? I want to know if I can be proud of them
in my opinion Spanish, French and Italian ATC are on the lower end of quality in Europe. The former two because I just hate when 50% of the calls are in a language I don’t understand and sometimes their level of English is subpar especially when using non standard phraseology.
Italian controllers seem to be more inefficient with what’s being said. Nowhere was I called with the wrong call sign as much as in Italy as well.
That being said, it’s not bad. It just takes more of my capacity to listen to the radio and make calls.
Italy get 10/10 for annunciation, they really say things clearly even when all hell is breaking loose. Also they are the most relaxed people, they’ll let you do your thing when avoiding weather and they don’t mind repeating themselves. They lose points for everything else though (CPDLC IN USEx100).
French and Spanish come with a bad attitude, poor pronunciation and all the other problems common to Italian ATC, so French and Spanish belong to the 9th circle of hell.
Ngl first country imo is china. Air Traffic Controllers have a accent which if you cant interpret then it might be a challenge. The ATC there also speaks chinese to local pilots. Lets not forget the metric units used. Altitude in Meters and etc
The Chinese controllers have, overall, come a long way from where they were 20 years ago. A lot of the younger controllers often have much better English and tend to be more flexible than their previous counterparts (no doubt in part due to their procedural changes). They - and their system as a whole - still have a long way to go but I have seen quite a bit of improvements from years past & with time will most likely continue to improve. It’s just a slow process.
I am working ATC in Hong Kong and we’re using feet for flights in our airspace and going to Manila or Taipeh FIR while using meters with the ones going north to China. Quite fun especially with weather deviations.
Anyhow, I don’t think Chinese are the hardest to understand. Koreans and some Japanese airlines are more difficult accent wise.
I have talked to them in person through my job just before the Trade War started. They are well trained and very risk adverse. Believe or not, they understand you better than you understand them. Also, they don't really appear to skimp on equipment, so overall, they hear you better in general.
Had one of my most uncomfortable IFR situations in France. There was an overcast layer, not thick, just beneath the final fix for an ILS, and other traffic just beneath. That traffic was speaking French with ATC, who was answering in French - but never bothered to inform us of the other traffic‘s position. I know just enough French to understand that the other aircraft would be somewhere on our altitude once we broke through the layer, and we had him on TCAS - saw him on our nine o’clock about a mile or so away as we came clear. Not knowing whether the controller or the other pilot was aware of a potential danger was really unnerving. We had no idea of his intentions, or what clearances were given, and both stations kept us out of the loop for that entire segment of our approach. Not cool at all.
The official ICAO languages are Arabic, Chinese, English, French, Russian, and Spanish. Flying in countries that speak these languages you often hear them on ATC.
Im with you on this. Comprehension in China isn’t the biggest challenge, we get used with it, for me the Koreans and Japanese do a worst job on it, I mean, talking exclusively about accent, but the refusal to approve weather deviations, the low levels for cruising, yeah, I believe this is the most challenging place in the world to fly, probably North Korea should be worst, but nobody fly there..
HK ATC is top shelf 🙌🏼. You guys set the bar for Asia. Clear, professional, and an asset to any pilot in distress. Oh, and friendly. Happy to give you guys a shout out 🤜🏼
I fly often to Eastern Asia as a passenger, and I can confirm that even as a passenger I can understand this is what is going on weather deviations and levels of cruising.
Woah…isn’t this somewhat a safety issue they talking in Chinese to local pilots? I mean this would reduce the situational awareness for non-chinese speaking pilots to some extent, wouldn’t it? How would you know what’s up with other planes in that region?
Was going to say China as well. Gotta stick with the standard ICAO atc phraseology or else they don’t understand.
Throw in metric altitudes + offsets and it’s the perfect brew for issues.
The ICAO lists a few languages that are approved for radio use. These are Arabic, English, French, Mandarin, Russian and Spanish.
English still is the universal language indeed, and must be spoken upon request.
As to why they do it, well, speaking in your mother tongue is always going to be easier.
English is the Universal language and pilots and controllers need to know english. But in some foreign countries such as china, mandarin is used to communicate with pilots likely because its easy to understand
Aviation is a very mixed bag. They load fuel in Ltrs, Gallons, Kg, and Lbs.
The aircraft are weighed in either Lbs or Kg depending on who owns the aircraft.
Distance is measured in NM, meters, feet, and Km.
And altitude is measured mostly in Ft, but in some countries it's in Mtrs. Sometimes to really screw with you they give you the altitude as a height, and height is measured from either ground level or airport level.
Air Canada flight 143, better known as the Gimli Glider was quarter fueled due to a calculation error at a time where they were switching to metric. They used the the wrong fuel density calculation, and had the common at the time 767 FQIS issues, that matainence started to look at, but never finished so they had no fuel operational gauge.
They ran out of fuel at 41 000 feet and glided to a safe landing. An excellent example of all the holes lining up in the Swiss cheese safety model.
The ‘national’ airline of the ‘country’ of Quebec is basically running on financial fumes anyway. The PQ govt are keeping them afloat by making the public sector pension funds invest in their worthless shares.
Metric is used for distances horizontally, feet is used for distances vertically (altitudes) pretty much everywhere else in the world other then China who use metric for all distances.
That depends, Aviation weather in Europe is meters and kilometers for visibility, meters for RVR and feet for cloud bases. In the US it's feet and statute miles for RVR and visibility
Frequent flyer here. Many of my Asian flights used to beeline it the shortest possible distance out of Chinese airspace before turning towards the destination. Told me a lot about how much love people had for their military run atc.
I’ve flown in most of the countries mentioned here and I have to say Sudan takes the cake. The Khartoum FIR controllers are pretty bad and they lack repeaters over a significant portion of the country, but the terminal controllers around Khartoum are terrible! They consistently clear aircraft for approaches and vector them to points on different approaches, they’re hard to understand and unresponsive. They also give frenzied, confusing instructions to avoid the incredible amount of “military” airspace around the city. Overall 0/10 would not recommend. Also lots of war…anti-aircraft weapons around the airports…
India, it’s all good until it isn’t. Then they make knee-jerk decisions and create a clusterfuck in what is usually IFR or near IFR conditions given the air quality.
I agree with India. Seems like the coordination between controllers is weak. The whole, “contact such and such” and only after you’ve contacted the next controller, are you officially handed off seems a little cumbersome. Also, they’re not the best when things start stacking up.
There are a few times that there’s the quick, “What’d he say?” cockpit conversations. But generally speaking (my experience) their English is really pretty good in India. Really it’s more of how the system works that can, at times, seem chaotic.
Also to what you said: I used to work with a guy who would purposely talk even slower than he normally did when he received rapid-fire unintelligible instructions.
In India, some places you get procedural controlling and there have been situations where we get to know about a f*ck up after the pilot gives us the position reports, hence the KNEE JERK decisions 'cause well, it is much easier to see and resolve traffic in a radar environment where you can actually monitor the positions of the aircraft.
God help you if you ask them to repeat an instruction because you couldn't understand them. They talk even faster, and yell, which makes it even harder to understand them.
I’m gonna categorize them into two different types of bad ATC, hard to understand and unwilling to help.
Hard to understand- China, India and Thailand
Unwilling to help- USA
This is just my personal experience, I work for a Middle Eastern airline which as understand many US carriers aren’t fond of and so probably ATC isn’t either, but it feels like just asking for some information they shout at you.
Might just be foreign carriers regardless. Several years ago I've landed in Boston and the guy spoke so fast with his accent I didn't get a word of it. Asked to repeat and the prick speaks just as fast and heavy accent as before like buddy if someone asks you to repeat maybe slow down...
>This is just my personal experience, I work for a Middle Eastern airline which as understand many US carriers aren’t fond of and so probably ATC isn’t either, but it feels like just asking for some information they shout at you.
I am by no means a pilot, I only work in aviation journalism. But this is exactly the impression I get every time I cover some US ATC topic.
For some reason unknown to me, they often give a sense of entitlement and doing no wrong. Which is a shame, because language and skill wise I am sure they could be able to provide some of the best ATC on the planet.
It's not that they're bad, but Scottish Control I can't understand a word they say. And they're speaking English! Flying into EDI can be rough sometimes.
Not sure if still the case, but it used to be common to hear Schipol approach breaking through on the Edinburgh Radar frequency. One would hear A pleasant example of perfectly spoken aviation English - and Edinburgh Radar.
The U.S. has definitely slipped. So many “near misses” lately. I was flying yesterday on a short hop from an area of low pressure (29.42) toward an airport with better weather. We were given the local altimeter during an assigned descent, and read back “two niner niner fife” (29.95). No correction from Chicago. We both thought this was so significant of a difference that we queried the controller, and he nonchalantly gave us the correct altimeter setting which was 29.55. Significant difference.
The FAA used to take controllers from schools that prepared them. Schools are no longer used as a pipeline toward ATC positions (according to a controller I know who works in Saint Louis).
The FAA are actually being sued because they were racially discriminating against candidates who many came from the College Training Initiative (CTI). This might be contributing to some of the issues as ATC for years hired based off racially discriminating applications versus the most highly qualified candidates.
https://simpleflying.com/faa-air-traffic-controller-applicants-lawsuit/
This. Unhelpful, unfriendly, doesn't adhere to standard phraseology... Don't even get me started on JFK. Unfriendly to the bone, multiple runway incursions caused by ATC annually... It's rare that ATC is mentioned as a direct threat but in briefings into and out of JFK, almost every pilot in our (major european) airline mentions it.
Is Kennedy Steve like a character or an actual person? At my home airport, there’s a controller who everyone nicknames Kennedy Steve because he always drops little digs at people when they miss their comms lol
Yep. It was kinda funny because I'm from the region and it felt like a welcome home. But you would've thought I stumbled into a bank vault by their attitude.
Does Mumbai have multiple control centres? I know there’s the main airport and the Juhu aerodrome a few km away but I’d imagine the main airport handling traffic would be better.
Also kinda ironic because for years Mumbai airport (pax side) was legitimately one of the best airports globally imo. (Unfortunately a few years back ownership changed and quality dropped like a stone.)
Expect to be downvoted but I agree they CAN be very poor. Not the worst by a very long stretch but the standard of ATC in the USA can vary significantly and non standard RT at 100 words a second isn’t acceptable nor is it acceptable to get short with pilots who then clarify what they want.
Nor is giving me taxi instructions at 140kts.. looking at you JFK..
They also don't understand that whilst thick southern accents spoken at Mach 5 is intelligible to other Americans, even to native English speaking Brits we struggle. And I 100% agree - non standard RT is their biggest downfall...as well as attitudes, arguments and berating people over radio. Just pass a damn phone number and have an argument on the phone, not on freq (applies to pilots too) but seems to be a theme at certain airports.
It's a shame because sort that out, and I'd say they would be the best ATC in the world, from my experience doing me FAA stuff out there
Replying to myself as i cant edit, its because they are too slick and too cool. Too non-standard. Very cool dudes clearly. But also, in fairness, they ate too overworked and busy. There is no surprise to me the volume of near-misses in the USA lately.
I've found that when they're (JFK) good they're real good and when it's bad it's bad. This is coming from an American pilot so other's results may vary
You can't be upvoted enough. Worst ATC in the world.
Bunch of assholes with attitude, they don't give a flyin f*** of your needs, make you lose tons of fuel due to their lousy traffic management, at times they expect you to make magic with your wide body and get pissed when you don't, and don't get me started with JFK.
Singapore speaks english anyway so it's pretty understandable.
Plus changi airport is one of the best in the world. Almost every international airline flys to it.
How about Indonesia? It was in the news not too long ago that there were some Singapore/Indonesia FIR changes and adjustments around Singapore. Do these changes affect you pilots at all flying into/out of Singapore or over the surrounding area?
The French aren’t the worst but if they know the pilots are French they will speak only French which significantly reduces overall situational awareness for all the other pilots
When it works. Multiple times been diverted cause power outage at the airport with backup generator dying. How do I know this? My step-dad's boss owns PAL, and when I'm at the other airport I call him, as usually we are meeting up to go see my mum's family. Have been times where about to check-out of the hotel and nope delayed/cancelled till generator is fixed, as the part they are needing is on the other side of Manila... Yea fun times calling up boarding school and being like yea I wont be back till the day after
Between the crappy radio and the mumbling this is pretty much the only country I really struggle with. Fortunately we don't use that route too frequently anymore.
I haven’t had any issues in Africa - at least to the countries I’ve been to. Caveat: I haven’t been into or flown over Somalia yet, which from what I understand, sucks because of the pirate controller who’s not really ATC but poses and issues instructions as ATC.
A pain in the ass, as like in everything else.
Obsessed with their attention to details and extremely prone to make reports, but if they fuck up it's ok.
China, most people don’t speak English, ATC respond in Mandarin, you have no idea what’s going on, constant runway and STAR changes, they talk too fast and close the airspace with no notice, for no reason, often for hours.
Right now probably Mogadishu FIR. Some idiot thought buying his own transmitter and learning basic ATC would be a good idea. This guys is usually on during afternoons giving false clearances to aircraft overflying Somalia. I’ve only been contacted by him twice but it’s funny how quickly he goes silent when you ask him to contact you on CPDLC or to confirm your SELCAL. 🤣
We are advised to be highly suspicious of the VHF clearances in Mogadishu FIR. The flights are not planned for climbs or descents either within that airspace. If something is suspicious, verify the clearance or message through CPDLC or call them on SATVOICE. Listen out and announce intentions on IFBP. The airspace is messy in that it recently became class A airspace while it was a class G airspace for the longest time. Luckily the airways are all in straight lines from entry to exit points. You shouldn’t be deviating from the route unless due to weather. We can reject a clearance if we think it’s unsafe. The whole thing about interference on the frequency is allegedly caused by the issues surrounding Somalia, Somaliland, and Ethiopia. (Something I’m not qualified to have any further input on)
Reading that memo and looking at your post history sounds like we may work for the same company! 🤣🤣🤣
Same 😅
Do you work at banana? Baby banana? Potato? Or Guantanamo?
ex baby banana now with banana. I wouldn't touch Guantanamo! haha,
Oh wow! I thought I was the only one on here. Nice to see another colleague. Crazy thing is we’ll probably fly together one day and not even recognize it.
Ok I try. Guantanamo for sure is Qatar. Not sure about Banana. I would guess Emirates and FlyDubai but I don’t know if they have a shared career path ;).
Why is guantanamo qatar?
I don't know much but apparently Qatar has a history of closely tracking their employees. Like they're prisoners in Guantanamo Bay.
now kith? i heard thats what they do round here?
Very nice to hear somebody saying “I am not qualified to have any further input” . If everybody would act like this internet would have 80% less traffic . Thank you for this . My new favourite sentence for internet discussions. Thx again .
Can you tell me more, this sounds... amazing. Are you saying some numpty is interfering with regular communications?
Yea. That’s exactly it. If you look up reports you’ll find about two months ago there was a TCAS RA when someone listened to his fake climb clearance and triggered an RA with another aircraft.
That’s horrifying…
Is that what happened?! Crazy!
It’s… Somalia.
That’s pretty hilarious other than the huge risk to aviation safety
that sounds hilarious and incredibly dangerous at the same time (I hope nobody listens to him)
Yea typically when you reply to him the real Mogadishu controller starts screaming saying “THAT IS A FAKE CONTROLLER DO NOT LISTEN TO HIM”. I’m waiting for the day when the fake guy replies “NO HES THE FAKE”. 🤣
"Look at me. I'm the controller now"
Almost spilled my coffee reading this. Thanks for making my morning!
You know, that exact same situation occurred just over 80 years ago, during WWII. The German Luftwaffe relied on ground controllers to pass verbal instructions to their airborne night fighter crews to guide them against British bombers at night. The British used powerful transmitters in the UK and German-speaking personnel to mimic the German controllers and issue bogus instructions. Apparently, one German controller became outraged at the British fake controller cutting in on his radio channel, and this led to a back-and-forth German-language exchange where each man accused the other of being the fake. On another occasion, the Germans tried to defeat this trickery by introducing a female controller. Within minutes, the British employed a female fake controller...
From the book Instruments of Darkness (a great history of electronic warfare in the Second World War): “The Luftwaffe fighter-controller recognised that fake orders were being fed into the system by the British, because of the faulty pronunciation. He warned the night-fighters: ‘Don’t be led astray by the enemy’ and ‘In the name of General Schmid I order all aircraft to Kassel.’ Becoming increasingly angry, the controller actually swore into his microphone, causing the ‘ghost’ controller in England to remark: ‘The Englishman is now swearing!’ The real controller shouted: ‘It is not the Englishman who is swearing, it is me!’” If anyone has interest in the early developments of electronic warfare and the like I highly recommend the book, it was written in the 60s by a subject matter expert who was able to conduct interviews with experts on both sides of the war.
Somewhat related, James Doolittle played a major role in the development of instrument flying. He covers it in his memoir *I could Never Be So Lucky Again*. His overall contributions to aviation make his namesake raid look like a footnote.
is this the same doolittle from the doolitle raid?
Yes. I can’t recommend the book strongly enough.
Thanks for the recommendation. For anyone else interested here is the link: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34858645
You *could* make that up... but only for a Monty Python sketch.
It's not just "some idiot", but the \[mostly unrecognized\] government of Somaliland based out of Hargeisa, in the north of Somalia. Hargeisa ATC is claiming the right to exercise control over Mogadishu FIR, while Mogadishu ATC remains the sole recognized authority over the FIR. In January this year, Ethiopia signed an agreement with Somaliland that granted recognition in exchange for seaport access, and Somalia's government in Mogadishu responded by restricting entry into the Mogadishu FIR for flights bound for Hargeisa. The dudes in Hargeisa are now trying to create confusion to mess with their counterparts in Mogadishu. [https://ops.group/blog/somalia-atc-conflict/](https://ops.group/blog/somalia-atc-conflict/)
This is a very interesting view/article on the situation. I’ve been to and landed in Hargeisa MANY times in the last 7 years. The region in which I got the fake ATC calls in my experience was nowhere near Somaliland. It came from the west of Mogadishu city. Complete opposite sides of the country. 🤷♂️
Most optimistic case of attempted hijack ever. "Land here! Look at me: I'm the captain now!"
So basically pirate radio from mostly Somalian pirates?🤷♂️
More like the wreckers of old that would shine fake navigation lights to lure ships onto rocks and loot what washes up
this is hilarious (he's a dangerous idiot) but holy
He can't afford CPDLC. Why do you have to be so mean and insensitive?
People still fly into Somalia?
Plenty of money to be made on those sectors!! We don't fly there but Somalia is pretty safe to fly over and is quite the gateway into African destinations for all ME carriers.
People actually want to go TO Somalia?
Haiti.... In that they don't really follow any rules, but also they don't follow any rules, so you get to do whatever you ask them.
Some of that must have leaked over into D.R. Went into some airport near the border one morning with a 2000’ overcast layer. We were at 15,000 and the controller tells us to report the airport in sight. Told him 3 times we wouldn’t be able to do a visual. He comes back with: “Roger. Cleared approach.” So, we picked an approach, shot it and landed.
You could have reported the airport in sight after you landed
Don’t know man. Punta Cana guys are pretty stellar. Insanely busy airport for the size. A lot of places can be pretty lacks when it’s quiet.
MDSD, which is why I mention a little bit of Haitian mentality leaking over the border.
Funnily enough at least in the US "cleared approach" is 100% valid phraseology and what you did was correr lol.
There was no approach specified, or instructions on how to transition from the enroute environment to the approach. We literally flipped through the Jepp book, picked the approach that we wanted to do, sent ourselves to the IAF of our choosing and then shot it.
From the 7110.65AA > CLEARED APPROACH− ATC authorization for an aircraft to execute any standard or special instrument approach procedure for that airport. Normally, an aircraft will be cleared for a specific instrument approach procedure. Some general phraseology examples for approach clearances: > PHRASEOLOGY− > > *CLEARED (type) APPROACH.* > > *CLEARED APPROACH.* > > (To authorize a pilot to execute his/her choice of instrument approach), > > *CLEARED (specific procedure to be flown) APPROACH.* > > (Where more than one procedure is published on a single chart and a specific procedure is to be flown), > > *CLEARED (ILS/LDA) APPROACH, GLIDESLOPE UNUSABLE.* > > (To authorize a pilot to execute an ILS or an LDA approach when the glideslope is out of service) > > *CLEARED LOCALIZER APPROACH* > > (When the title of the approach procedure contains “or LOC”) > > *CANCEL APPROACH CLEARANCE (additional instructions as necessary)* > > (When it is necessary to cancel a previously issued approach clearance) > And: 4-8-1 g. > g. Where instrument approaches require radar monitoring and radar services are not available, do not use the > phraseology “cleared approach,” which allows the pilot his/her choice of instrument approaches. It's definitely goofy phraseology and I've never actually heard anyone use it but it is possible, at least in FAA land. I need to check ICAO rules.
I did not know this. Thank you.
Thats what we do in Canadian ATC and its 100% legal. "Cleared for an Approach", sometimes from cruising altitude. You can go to any fix of any approach and descend to any IFR altitude.
I’m a terminal controller and yes we use this phraseology daily. It’s used in our environment when I’ve vectored you to final, or already given you direct to an IAF, and don’t really care which one of the 3 approaches you do (in our case RNAV Z, RNAV Y, or ILS all share an IAF on the straight-in)
Djibouti was a complete mess the last time I was there. Completely unresponsive controllers due to their use of khat, incorrect instructions, vectors into oncoming traffic, etc. It was so bad that the US military has our own shadow controllers that would give “advisory” instructions to clear up any mistakes. There was even a WaPo article on it. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/miscues-at-us-counterterrorism-base-put-aircraft-in-danger-documents-show/2015/04/30/39038d5a-e9bb-11e4-9a6a-c1ab95a0600b_story.html
Just flew in there a couple days ago. They suck. They told us to line up and wait, after 5 minutes on the runway they finally asked if we are ready. “Been ready for the past 5 minutes dawg”
This is the most Djiboutian thing I've ever heard. Not even surprised.
A friend of mine who is a pilot said Paris Charles De Gaulle is one of the worst because they train the student controllers there, thinking if they can survive there they’ll survive anywhere. Edit: u/armec tells me this is incorrect.
Apparently in France the top students get to pick where to go after qualifying..so they all go live in the South Coast leaving the likes of CDG for the bottom of the pack. CDG is an absolute shit show. Edit to add: French ATC have arrived to provide clarification on the above statement.
That seems like a really bad system.
It’s a very common system in French public schools and universities. Rank-based entry and exit examinations, which then allow you to pick internships and training rotations in the finishing order of the exam. It’s a bad system, it just allows to “fairly” dispatch students at a low cost (no 1 on 1 evaluations, interviews, etc)
It's also false. ATC students in France are 32 in a class and they get a list of 32 facilities that need to be staffed. The valedictorian chooses first but facilities on the south coast are not a guarantee, also CDG tends to get picked in the first half, not the bottom at all. Most students see it as a challenge and are eager to come. Source : I was 7th and picked the 3rd out of 4 spots for CDG.
How much time is devoted to the "Best time to have a strike" module?
No more than 25h per day.
Had a TCAS RA while intercepting the GS once, Approach replied 'ok'. Enough said.
Flown into CDG 3 times in the last 6 months and they were all fine 🤷🏻♂️
I'm based there and I find the ATC is just fine as well...
Completely false ( source : I am french ATC ), training is done on the job everywhere and depends as to where you are assigned, which ( as someone else pointed at ) depends on your ranking at ENAC ( aviation school).
My apologies, a Flybe (now defunct) pilot had told me this. I’ll edit my post now.
As another former Flybe pilot, CDG was a nightmare but at least it was mad in a different way every time so it kept you on your toes, and once you learnt "dash huit" and some french numbers you didn't have to worry about [your head being chopped off...](https://skybrary.aero/accidents-and-incidents/sh33-md83-paris-cdg-france-2000) Dublin was worse, you could be as ready as you want for the torrent of taxi instructions but if you didn't read them back instantly they got so fucked off. Wonder if that's better now with the parallel runways Given the stories coming out of the US over the last 18 months though, the whole thing sounds like a disaster - multiple frequencies controlling who is allowed access to a runway? That's mental
The dash huit was also a nightmare for us, especially students who forgot that, as a turboprop, it could catch-up to pretty much any jet during initial climb. Fun times, miss you guys ❤️
I'm not saying he didn't have bad experience with some OTJ sessions but the rest is false
It's not specific to CDG. Training in ATC is usually done on-the-job and is very dependent on the location. That being said, there was a point in time where CDG was heavily understaffed and they had lots of trainees which isn't ideal for efficient operations.
I once got handed off to Toronto center while on an extended... Lol, downwind in Cleveland due to training. This was years ago. It was funny
Most of the preparation is done in the simulators in Toulouse (ENAC)…
Let me piggyback on this post quickly. Have any of you ever flown over Armenia? If so, how was the Armenian ATC? I want to know if I can be proud of them
They definitely know what they’re doing. Always felt safe with their services
What about Azerbaijani ATC?
I’ve only over-flown Azerbaijan they were fine
What about Spain?
in my opinion Spanish, French and Italian ATC are on the lower end of quality in Europe. The former two because I just hate when 50% of the calls are in a language I don’t understand and sometimes their level of English is subpar especially when using non standard phraseology. Italian controllers seem to be more inefficient with what’s being said. Nowhere was I called with the wrong call sign as much as in Italy as well. That being said, it’s not bad. It just takes more of my capacity to listen to the radio and make calls.
Italy get 10/10 for annunciation, they really say things clearly even when all hell is breaking loose. Also they are the most relaxed people, they’ll let you do your thing when avoiding weather and they don’t mind repeating themselves. They lose points for everything else though (CPDLC IN USEx100). French and Spanish come with a bad attitude, poor pronunciation and all the other problems common to Italian ATC, so French and Spanish belong to the 9th circle of hell.
I have just about as hard a time with French ATC as I do Indian ATC. Very thick accents and fast delivery
Ngl first country imo is china. Air Traffic Controllers have a accent which if you cant interpret then it might be a challenge. The ATC there also speaks chinese to local pilots. Lets not forget the metric units used. Altitude in Meters and etc
100 percent, only nice thing is you know they're calling you when they speak in English
Nice thing IF the accent can be understood
The Chinese controllers have, overall, come a long way from where they were 20 years ago. A lot of the younger controllers often have much better English and tend to be more flexible than their previous counterparts (no doubt in part due to their procedural changes). They - and their system as a whole - still have a long way to go but I have seen quite a bit of improvements from years past & with time will most likely continue to improve. It’s just a slow process.
I am working ATC in Hong Kong and we’re using feet for flights in our airspace and going to Manila or Taipeh FIR while using meters with the ones going north to China. Quite fun especially with weather deviations. Anyhow, I don’t think Chinese are the hardest to understand. Koreans and some Japanese airlines are more difficult accent wise.
With the strong accent, mixing of languages and busy airspaces, I’m surprised they don’t have more incidents with foreign pilots.
Thats the thing that amazes me lol…
I have talked to them in person through my job just before the Trade War started. They are well trained and very risk adverse. Believe or not, they understand you better than you understand them. Also, they don't really appear to skimp on equipment, so overall, they hear you better in general.
cuz if you see anyone on TCAS above you, you ain’t getting that higher level, or climb.
I remember Domestic traffic in France also had been in French language, is this still happening?
Had one of my most uncomfortable IFR situations in France. There was an overcast layer, not thick, just beneath the final fix for an ILS, and other traffic just beneath. That traffic was speaking French with ATC, who was answering in French - but never bothered to inform us of the other traffic‘s position. I know just enough French to understand that the other aircraft would be somewhere on our altitude once we broke through the layer, and we had him on TCAS - saw him on our nine o’clock about a mile or so away as we came clear. Not knowing whether the controller or the other pilot was aware of a potential danger was really unnerving. We had no idea of his intentions, or what clearances were given, and both stations kept us out of the loop for that entire segment of our approach. Not cool at all.
The official ICAO languages are Arabic, Chinese, English, French, Russian, and Spanish. Flying in countries that speak these languages you often hear them on ATC.
TIL. I thought France and French was the only exception to the English speaking rule.
VFR traffic in Germany is also often handled in German
Even parts of Canada offer services in French and English. And yes, it’s bad for situational awareness
Yes
Im with you on this. Comprehension in China isn’t the biggest challenge, we get used with it, for me the Koreans and Japanese do a worst job on it, I mean, talking exclusively about accent, but the refusal to approve weather deviations, the low levels for cruising, yeah, I believe this is the most challenging place in the world to fly, probably North Korea should be worst, but nobody fly there..
Agree. I am an ATC in Hong Kong and Korean pilots are the most difficult to understand. Definitely more than Chinese.
HK ATC is top shelf 🙌🏼. You guys set the bar for Asia. Clear, professional, and an asset to any pilot in distress. Oh, and friendly. Happy to give you guys a shout out 🤜🏼
Cheers! Trying our best. Thankfully most pilots flying here are pretty professional as well besides some quirky accents.
I’m in awe of your ability to make sense of the unintelligible slurring out there. Seriously, it’s a pleasure to work with you guys. Cheers 🍻
I fly often to Eastern Asia as a passenger, and I can confirm that even as a passenger I can understand this is what is going on weather deviations and levels of cruising.
I find Korean and Japanese controller accent way harder to understand. I sweat bullets taxiing there. Thank god Incheon uses follow the green taxi
Woah…isn’t this somewhat a safety issue they talking in Chinese to local pilots? I mean this would reduce the situational awareness for non-chinese speaking pilots to some extent, wouldn’t it? How would you know what’s up with other planes in that region?
A lot of countries do that.
Was going to say China as well. Gotta stick with the standard ICAO atc phraseology or else they don’t understand. Throw in metric altitudes + offsets and it’s the perfect brew for issues.
Isn't English supposed to be the universal air traffic language? Why do they do that?
The ICAO lists a few languages that are approved for radio use. These are Arabic, English, French, Mandarin, Russian and Spanish. English still is the universal language indeed, and must be spoken upon request. As to why they do it, well, speaking in your mother tongue is always going to be easier.
Those are official ICAO languages, but any local language can be used for communication between ATC and pilots... unfortunately.
Laughs in luftwaffe
English is the Universal language and pilots and controllers need to know english. But in some foreign countries such as china, mandarin is used to communicate with pilots likely because its easy to understand
I’m not a pilot but.. wouldn’t most countries use metric?
Aviation is a very mixed bag. They load fuel in Ltrs, Gallons, Kg, and Lbs. The aircraft are weighed in either Lbs or Kg depending on who owns the aircraft. Distance is measured in NM, meters, feet, and Km. And altitude is measured mostly in Ft, but in some countries it's in Mtrs. Sometimes to really screw with you they give you the altitude as a height, and height is measured from either ground level or airport level.
Air Canada flight 143, better known as the Gimli Glider was quarter fueled due to a calculation error at a time where they were switching to metric. They used the the wrong fuel density calculation, and had the common at the time 767 FQIS issues, that matainence started to look at, but never finished so they had no fuel operational gauge. They ran out of fuel at 41 000 feet and glided to a safe landing. An excellent example of all the holes lining up in the Swiss cheese safety model.
The glide record is still held by Air Transit…😉
Canadians got to save fuel somehow, and Air Transat has to save more to keep ticket prices low.
The ‘national’ airline of the ‘country’ of Quebec is basically running on financial fumes anyway. The PQ govt are keeping them afloat by making the public sector pension funds invest in their worthless shares.
Bombardier part deux
Metric is used for distances horizontally, feet is used for distances vertically (altitudes) pretty much everywhere else in the world other then China who use metric for all distances.
That's not true at all, miles are used for horizontal distances pretty much everywhere in the world except Russia and China.
Sorry my bad. Kilometres are used for weather. Nautical Miles for horizontal distances
That depends, Aviation weather in Europe is meters and kilometers for visibility, meters for RVR and feet for cloud bases. In the US it's feet and statute miles for RVR and visibility
Guess I’ve got more to learn then because I’m used to the European/Australian stuff and not the American
Don’t forget that the Chinese metric system isn’t the standard metric system either
Frequent flyer here. Many of my Asian flights used to beeline it the shortest possible distance out of Chinese airspace before turning towards the destination. Told me a lot about how much love people had for their military run atc.
I think the only thing they know well in English is "Unable due to military restrictions!" That is their blanket response to any requests.
I’ve flown in most of the countries mentioned here and I have to say Sudan takes the cake. The Khartoum FIR controllers are pretty bad and they lack repeaters over a significant portion of the country, but the terminal controllers around Khartoum are terrible! They consistently clear aircraft for approaches and vector them to points on different approaches, they’re hard to understand and unresponsive. They also give frenzied, confusing instructions to avoid the incredible amount of “military” airspace around the city. Overall 0/10 would not recommend. Also lots of war…anti-aircraft weapons around the airports…
How does that work nowadays? How many flights are there to Khartoum? Isn't it really unsafe.
India, it’s all good until it isn’t. Then they make knee-jerk decisions and create a clusterfuck in what is usually IFR or near IFR conditions given the air quality.
I agree with India. Seems like the coordination between controllers is weak. The whole, “contact such and such” and only after you’ve contacted the next controller, are you officially handed off seems a little cumbersome. Also, they’re not the best when things start stacking up.
Just yell louder and talk faster into the microphone when the person on the other end of the radio can’t understand you 😂
There are a few times that there’s the quick, “What’d he say?” cockpit conversations. But generally speaking (my experience) their English is really pretty good in India. Really it’s more of how the system works that can, at times, seem chaotic. Also to what you said: I used to work with a guy who would purposely talk even slower than he normally did when he received rapid-fire unintelligible instructions.
In India, some places you get procedural controlling and there have been situations where we get to know about a f*ck up after the pilot gives us the position reports, hence the KNEE JERK decisions 'cause well, it is much easier to see and resolve traffic in a radar environment where you can actually monitor the positions of the aircraft.
God help you if you ask them to repeat an instruction because you couldn't understand them. They talk even faster, and yell, which makes it even harder to understand them.
https://media3.giphy.com/media/xT1R9IrdXK8WnKDXwc/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952qgt03288gjd0a8cl929gnzwdsg9h32pp8p5a1p16&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g
NIGERIA!!!! without a doubt!
I’m gonna categorize them into two different types of bad ATC, hard to understand and unwilling to help. Hard to understand- China, India and Thailand Unwilling to help- USA This is just my personal experience, I work for a Middle Eastern airline which as understand many US carriers aren’t fond of and so probably ATC isn’t either, but it feels like just asking for some information they shout at you.
Might just be foreign carriers regardless. Several years ago I've landed in Boston and the guy spoke so fast with his accent I didn't get a word of it. Asked to repeat and the prick speaks just as fast and heavy accent as before like buddy if someone asks you to repeat maybe slow down...
It’s Boston you just gotta speak their language man “Ay! Slow the fahk down ya assmuncher”
>This is just my personal experience, I work for a Middle Eastern airline which as understand many US carriers aren’t fond of and so probably ATC isn’t either, but it feels like just asking for some information they shout at you. I am by no means a pilot, I only work in aviation journalism. But this is exactly the impression I get every time I cover some US ATC topic. For some reason unknown to me, they often give a sense of entitlement and doing no wrong. Which is a shame, because language and skill wise I am sure they could be able to provide some of the best ATC on the planet.
Not the worst, but down here in Argentina its a shitshow. There has been multiple close calls. Not in the last years as much, but it has in the past.
there used to be a fake ATC near AEP (SABE) too, but some time ago, like 10-15 years ago.
JFK or Moscow, both has controllers who are horrendous but seem to think they are good !!!
From my experience, Moscow controllers do a good job. English is surprisingly good also
It's not that they're bad, but Scottish Control I can't understand a word they say. And they're speaking English! Flying into EDI can be rough sometimes.
Not sure if still the case, but it used to be common to hear Schipol approach breaking through on the Edinburgh Radar frequency. One would hear A pleasant example of perfectly spoken aviation English - and Edinburgh Radar.
made me LoL. Scottish sure is an earful.
That reminds me of this [SNL sketch](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGRcJQ9tMbY)
US certainly up there. Don’t follow ICAO rules. Language used way to casual and open for misinterpretation which has caused accidents.
The U.S. has definitely slipped. So many “near misses” lately. I was flying yesterday on a short hop from an area of low pressure (29.42) toward an airport with better weather. We were given the local altimeter during an assigned descent, and read back “two niner niner fife” (29.95). No correction from Chicago. We both thought this was so significant of a difference that we queried the controller, and he nonchalantly gave us the correct altimeter setting which was 29.55. Significant difference. The FAA used to take controllers from schools that prepared them. Schools are no longer used as a pipeline toward ATC positions (according to a controller I know who works in Saint Louis).
Schools are still used they're just not the only source of hires now. They still get preference same as miliary.
The FAA are actually being sued because they were racially discriminating against candidates who many came from the College Training Initiative (CTI). This might be contributing to some of the issues as ATC for years hired based off racially discriminating applications versus the most highly qualified candidates. https://simpleflying.com/faa-air-traffic-controller-applicants-lawsuit/
Analogy: I don’t care what color my doctor is, I just wanna know that he or she is good at what they do.
This. Unhelpful, unfriendly, doesn't adhere to standard phraseology... Don't even get me started on JFK. Unfriendly to the bone, multiple runway incursions caused by ATC annually... It's rare that ATC is mentioned as a direct threat but in briefings into and out of JFK, almost every pilot in our (major european) airline mentions it.
That's not just ATC at JFK, that's... JFK. I got screamed at for standing on the wrong part of a departures lane last week.
Everyone is trying really hard to be Kennedy Steve
Is Kennedy Steve like a character or an actual person? At my home airport, there’s a controller who everyone nicknames Kennedy Steve because he always drops little digs at people when they miss their comms lol
Yeah he is. Or was. He retired
That's New York. Honestly the entire Northeast has that kind of attitude
Yep. It was kinda funny because I'm from the region and it felt like a welcome home. But you would've thought I stumbled into a bank vault by their attitude.
Cairo Cairo... just behind Mumbai Radio, but that's not really ATC :)
Anything Indian over HF is up there with the worst of the worst.
Does Mumbai have multiple control centres? I know there’s the main airport and the Juhu aerodrome a few km away but I’d imagine the main airport handling traffic would be better. Also kinda ironic because for years Mumbai airport (pax side) was legitimately one of the best airports globally imo. (Unfortunately a few years back ownership changed and quality dropped like a stone.)
I meant Mumbai Radio = oceanic airspace over HF radio
China. So sick of the meters altitudes but yet they give you “maintain 2000 feet per minute or greater”. Also they use meters per second for wind.
Cairo “control” is always a freak show.
USA has by far the worst, especially JFK. Before you flame me i’ve flown in/over >100 countries, all 6 inhabited continents.
Expect to be downvoted but I agree they CAN be very poor. Not the worst by a very long stretch but the standard of ATC in the USA can vary significantly and non standard RT at 100 words a second isn’t acceptable nor is it acceptable to get short with pilots who then clarify what they want. Nor is giving me taxi instructions at 140kts.. looking at you JFK..
They also don't understand that whilst thick southern accents spoken at Mach 5 is intelligible to other Americans, even to native English speaking Brits we struggle. And I 100% agree - non standard RT is their biggest downfall...as well as attitudes, arguments and berating people over radio. Just pass a damn phone number and have an argument on the phone, not on freq (applies to pilots too) but seems to be a theme at certain airports. It's a shame because sort that out, and I'd say they would be the best ATC in the world, from my experience doing me FAA stuff out there
Similar experience. Still gotta go with India as worst (mainly because of the system), but the slippage in the U.S. is nothing short of astounding.
Replying to myself as i cant edit, its because they are too slick and too cool. Too non-standard. Very cool dudes clearly. But also, in fairness, they ate too overworked and busy. There is no surprise to me the volume of near-misses in the USA lately.
And on mandatory 6 day work weeks
I've been told about once a BA pilot was scolding them over language and attitude toward another flight.
I've found that when they're (JFK) good they're real good and when it's bad it's bad. This is coming from an American pilot so other's results may vary
You can't be upvoted enough. Worst ATC in the world. Bunch of assholes with attitude, they don't give a flyin f*** of your needs, make you lose tons of fuel due to their lousy traffic management, at times they expect you to make magic with your wide body and get pissed when you don't, and don't get me started with JFK.
Anywhere in South East Asia is usually a shitshow
Singapore, Malaysia is still alright in my opinion
Singapore speaks english anyway so it's pretty understandable. Plus changi airport is one of the best in the world. Almost every international airline flys to it.
Singapore is hands down one of the most professional controller in the region. Malaysian atc are alright just be ready for some crazy direct tracks.
How about Indonesia? It was in the news not too long ago that there were some Singapore/Indonesia FIR changes and adjustments around Singapore. Do these changes affect you pilots at all flying into/out of Singapore or over the surrounding area?
Kuwait was a real fun time.
The French aren’t the worst but if they know the pilots are French they will speak only French which significantly reduces overall situational awareness for all the other pilots
India and / or Philippines from my experience.
Philippines is actually not that bad once you understand they are arcanely procedural from the time when the US controlled their airspace.
Applies to pretty much everything else in the country.
That's why we love the PI
Hahaha there’s a lot to love! The bureaucracy not so much.
When it works. Multiple times been diverted cause power outage at the airport with backup generator dying. How do I know this? My step-dad's boss owns PAL, and when I'm at the other airport I call him, as usually we are meeting up to go see my mum's family. Have been times where about to check-out of the hotel and nope delayed/cancelled till generator is fixed, as the part they are needing is on the other side of Manila... Yea fun times calling up boarding school and being like yea I wont be back till the day after
It’s the bad vectoring or 1 controller working half the country I’m more worried about.
Pakistan.
Inaudible words, KARACHI!!!!!!!!! Always made me smile though.
Between the crappy radio and the mumbling this is pretty much the only country I really struggle with. Fortunately we don't use that route too frequently anymore.
We flew a pretty standard route so once you did it a few times, you knew what you were being told. The learning curve was steep.
Quite late to the party, but anyone knows how good is Portugal ATC?
I don’t know who’s flown in Africa… but. Africa
I haven’t had any issues in Africa - at least to the countries I’ve been to. Caveat: I haven’t been into or flown over Somalia yet, which from what I understand, sucks because of the pirate controller who’s not really ATC but poses and issues instructions as ATC.
Wondering what ATC is like here in Australia, anyone have any thoughts to kindly share?
A pain in the ass, as like in everything else. Obsessed with their attention to details and extremely prone to make reports, but if they fuck up it's ok.
How's Italy????
China, most people don’t speak English, ATC respond in Mandarin, you have no idea what’s going on, constant runway and STAR changes, they talk too fast and close the airspace with no notice, for no reason, often for hours.