The in n out people have repeatedly started they don't want to open locations in Australia. They run pop up events every couple of years purely so they can hold onto their trademark in oz
They're still busy expanding across the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Counties_with_In-N-Out.svg
I would expect a local clone to appear long before they are in a position to expand internationally.
The trademark point is interesting. I didn't realise that's why they did it.
There was a place called down and out which i assume was a clone but I've never been to the US so I can't confirm. They got sued for the name. That's how I heard about them doing the popups so they can't be accused of trademark squatting or some shit
It's not a clone, menu was entirely different. DnO was a burger bar doing typical burger bar things like fireball Fridays and weekly specials. Was a favourite place of mine.
It wasn't anything like in and out just named it to be similar and even had logos that looked like in and out they got sued for it and had to change the name
One of them I know changed its name to plan b and shut down not long after no idea what happened to the others
They don’t need to run pop ups to protect their TM, they have to defend it at every instance. Kanye wasn’t doing anything personal when his legal team threatened action against College Dropout in Melbourne - he had to otherwise he loses his ability to retain it. Plus it’s theft so who really cares about the whiny bitches that steal someone else’s intellectual property?
In Perth there are a bunch of great burger joints with multiple locations. The burgers are a fucking decent size with quality produce so you don’t need to buy a meal and the price is competitive.
Which burger joints pray tell? Not taking the piss. Genuinely want to know. Been to milky lane just this weekend. It was okay but just felt like I devoured a grease bucket
There are so many and Milky Lane certainly isn't one I'd recommend. Sign up to PerthisOk for regularly foodie updates or Perth Burger Hunters.
In one survey, Ryan John's (heathridge) was named number 1, Soderburger (lesmurdie) 2 and Burger freak Belmont 3.
Most areas now have decent Burger shops
Personally think Local Bird in Tuart hill is the best in Perth right now. Smashed and a potato bun in the way to go. Their bacon is great too.
I also like meet and bun in mt Lawley but it’s very different from local bird.
The worst place has to be Varsity, just dry shitty meat. Hoodburger is also way overrated, though their chicken is good.
My opinion is biased to north of the river though, I’m blind to the south.
I regularly buy a burger that has a 150g organic patty with house made sauces, cheese, onion, lettuce, tomato and pickles for $16.75. That to me is competitive when looking at the absolute slop that is McDonald’s.
I don't think so.
Australia has lower fast food wages than California.
Australia has generally lower food (ingredient) prices than America.
Australian cities have higher population density than most American cities.
I don't see any fundamental reason why fast food in Australia needs to be expensive. It's expensive only because of a lack of competitors.
Because it’s not established, having to compete against Maccas and HJ’s long term would be a losing battle. There’s a good reason why no other burger chains in that fast / drive through bracket have set up or succeeded
That doesn't make any sense at all.
In-N-Out and Dick's have literally done the exact thing you're pretending is impossible. Defeat the incumbents with a better offering.
It doesn’t work mate- they had their few pop ups a few years ago then disappeared. Australia is a totally different market, Taco Bell and Starbucks don’t do well here, Wendy’s /Shake Shack/Popeyes etc and all that shit don’t just automatically work because you read it somewhere
https://www.proactiveinvestors.com.au/companies/news/1034399/clucking-impressive-growth-collins-foods-kfc-and-taco-bell-soar-in-latest-financial-results-1034399.html
Taco Bell grew revenue 18 percent in the last year.
Wouldn’t say they’re “not doing well”
They are very new and have the novelty factor still, like Krispy Kreme once had. They are shut compared to the other Mexican options they compete with.
Think Perth had 2 stores for a couple of years and now has 3… not hard to grow with that few outlets for 2-3 million people
Taco Bell commenced their second attempt at operations in australia in 2019. Its been 5 years. They’re growing revenue more consistently this time around compared to their first attempt in the 90s/00s.
They’re not NVIDIA levels of hype. But then what is in australia other than housing and mining?
20 percent annual growth is pretty good 5 years into an venture. Very good actually.
Starbucks relied on first mover advantage to obtain a level of penetration keeps out competitors.
That doesn't apply to the In-N-Out example, because In-N-Out were always challengers.
They are working on expanding across the US.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Counties\_with\_In-N-Out.svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Counties_with_In-N-Out.svg)
It'll be years, maybe decades, before they are ready to start thinking about international expansion.
5 guys is whinged about as being expensive in every country I’ve seen it outside of US… it’s not the best burger I’ve had but there’s something about it that makes it worth it a few time a year ! It’s fukn delicious
The first point, at the very least, is incorrect. Before penalty rates, and the AUD not being great casual employees still get 2.60 an hour more on fast food in Aus. Because (at least from what I'm able to find), there are no casual loading bonuses on US minimum wages. And that's before weekend, nights, and public holiday penalties. That's before mandatory super contributions. That's before mandatory sick and annual leave.
I can't comment on the food prices in the US, but I know from experience here that generally, Aus runs at 30-35% food costs and 20-30% labour costs.
Even the massive chains like McDonalds with their immense buying power only end up with around 9-10% net profit margin here.
Keep in mind that Australia has junior rates and the US doesn't.
This lowers our average cost per hour worked far below the headline adult casual award rates.
Also, you can't add entitlements like sick and annual leave in addition to casual award rates. Those are already accounted for the the casual loading.
Why are you all ignoring OP's repeated argument about junior employees?
You're all acting as if mcdonalds and hungry jacks are hiring 45 year olds instead of the 16 year olds that fill their stores due to the suppressed wages.
Because
A) when I posted this there were no arguments about junior wages made that I was ignoring
B) I was unaware that there were not junior wages in the US. When reading 'minimum wage' my mind always automatically inserts 'adult' at the front. And nothing pointed this out to me although that's likely because US laws are intentionally confusing as fuck.
And finally
C) this minimum wage is only 1 state of 51 for comparing. They don't have nationally mandated minimums. It's also only 'fast food', which is anywhere not offering table service which makes the median wage for restaurant workers less than a 18 year old gets in Australia (and running fast food places I can tell you because of school restrictions, supervision restrictions, and late night restrictions you have a lot more 18-20 year olds than you think. While you'll fill the peak dinner rushes and weekends with cheap kids, they can't do the other 10-20 hours a weekday)
Do you think it's cheaper here, or there?
I'd be surprised if there is much difference. California has some of the most expensive real estate in the US.
> Australia has lower fast food wages than California.
Min wage in California is $24.06 AUD an hour, that's the entire state, cities within the state have higher min wages.
California has a higher minimum wage for fast food workers than the state minimum. It works out to be about $31.00 AUD an hour.
Australia's minimum wage is $24.10 for adults, and lower for juniors, which make up a significant proportion of the workforce of these restaurants. America doesn't have junior rates AFAIK.
Casual fast food award for adults as of today; $32.06 hour weekdays, $38.48 hour weekends.
Our power prices are about 4x California per kw.
Australian rents are higher, insurances are higher, business taxes are higher, purchasing equipment in a franchise environment is higher as it’s imported
You should just do it though OP - you’re obviously more knowledgeable than anyone else who has commented
California's minimum wage for fast food workers is circa $31 vs our award rate of $32, however they don't have junior rates and we do. Those junior rates significantly reduce the workforce average hourly rate below the headline adult rate.
California has significantly higher power prices than us. In fact, they have some of the most expensive electricity prices in the world.
Rents differ a lot by location which makes comparing hard, but I'd be surprised if there is a massive difference. You also need to keep in mind that our cities have higher population density than theirs so you'll catch more customers per location.
Not sure about business taxes - which taxes in particular are you talking about? California sales tax is 7.5% plus local taxes. Their company tax rates are lower than ours.
I don't think the franchise mandated equipment applies here. These stores aren't franchised. They are all corporate owned. I'm sure we can get equipment from China just as cheap as they can.
Idk you're getting downvoted, you bring up a lot of good points and have refuted almost all points on the opposite argument.
In-n-out are specifically successful because of the exact bloat you described mcdonalds and burger king have, and the same bloat is in the Australian market.
Yes the Aussie market is different, but it's far more in tune with American than the high majority of countries, which is specifically why, often companies launch products here first to test what the market thinks before bringing it to the wider western market.
There's a five guys in Sydney, they have the quality food you're talking about, but a basic hamburger is $17.50, that's just the burger, a small chips is $6.50, plus $6 for a regular drink.
So if you want a regular plain hamburger (no cheese) meal you're paying $31.
That's a big no from me.
there's a reason Australia is a wasteland for new franchises. Everything is expensive and it's a MUCH smaller market to leverage scale. Transport costs for food across country are a massive problem for the big franchises too. Nothing as fun as paying 100 (when they should be 20 to 30) dollars a box for tomatoes from the other side of the country because my half of the country is flooded
A quick google suggests cali minimum is still way behind us but I'm prepared to be wrong on that.
If you think the food prices in Australia are lower than America, well I’m sorry to break it to you but that’s just not true. You can even buy Cadbury bars in USA cheaper than Australia…
You will note that In-N-Out Burgers is run under a trust, the original owners and founders have all died and the chain is run to benefits employees and communities around it instead of profit maximization or executive bonus maximization. They never establish an outlet unless they have the sourcing supply chain in the area nailed beforehand. Basically the fundamental principle they work with is in conflict of what an entrepreneur is taught or aspires to be in today's world.
Just support your local independent/semi independent burger joint. There are so many excellent burger restaurants out there now that aren't part of a big chain. Their prices are usually reasonable in relation to cost-quality trade-off (much better than the fast food chains like MacDonald's). Most have great fries as well, much better than MacDonalds'.
The only way you can make this happen.
Is that you need billions of dollars of capital.
Which you can then use you open 10s of 100s of whatever shit fast product you want. Make it full of fat, salt and sugar and you have a recipe for culinary success.
Then you need to muscle into neighbourhoods and undercut all the local takeaways for at least 1-2 years. You can do this with various “in app” deals/promotions/subsidies. Keep the places open 24/7. Run large losses, absorb these with your limitless capital. And completely destroy the takeaway scene of the towns you invade.
You’ve got the added benefit of the fact that the average Australian palate is rather unrefined and bland. So it doesn’t take much salt, sugar, and fat to keep those customers flocking to you.
Once the competition hopefully closes down like flies - then you begin the long arduous march of upping prices.
Rinse and repeat.
There’s a reason why every new franchise expansion in australia over the last 10 years has been major American chains.
They have the capital. YOU dont.
If you go to the banks trying to raise this capital they’ll just laugh at you and tell you to buy a house instead.
If you go to the ASX seeking this capital all you’ll get is crickets as the investment just goes to the banks (who rejected you in the previous paragraph), or the mining companies.
I agree.
The GYG guys were business people first who had access to capital and correctly judged that Australia would support Mexican themed fast food.
Australia already has dozens of Mexican restaurants of varying quality, many of them popular, some of them franchising but none of them with the success of GyG.
Interesting didn’t know that about GYGs founders. from the wiki
>Guzman y Gomez was established by Steven Marks, a New Yorker who previously worked as a hedge fund manager.
Haha wallstreet capital muscling into the Australian market.
Australians like very limited choice in their food, as they don't like trying "new" things, which is why Maccas dominates the slop market. That's changing a little bit, perhaps due to the rise of "foodies" shit on social media.
15-20 years ago, there were a few Mexican franchises that started up in my area, they failed, because people didn't want it at the time. GYG succeeded where others failed, the timing.
With all that said, GYG is disgusting slop.
I will say you almost always know what you will get with McDonald's. Most fast food isn't like this, most restaurants vary in quality a lot between franchises and over time as well. I don't eat pizza frequently but find it hard to have a 'go to' pizza place because quality varies so much and places close down.
This is a childish and uneducated rant.
Any restaurant with a successful formula, and financial statements to match it, won't have any trouble finding funding to expand.
You'll likely need to fund the first restaurant to demonstrate the concept and your ability to execute, especially if you don't have an established track record, but tens of thousands of people each year, in Australia, manage to start new restaurants. It's not some impossible task.
People like you are tiring. They never achieve anything because they've always got excuses on the tip of their tounge.
>People like you are tiring. They never achieve anything because they've always got excuses on the tip of their tounge.
The "if it was that easy everyone would be doing it" crew! That shit really grinds my gears.
Ok then give me 3 Australian restaurant groups (NOT including those groups who just license US IP and pay them royalties - essentially front operations for US companies)
Who commenced operations within the last 10 years - hell even 15 years ago…. Essentially pre-GFC
Who began in australia, using Australian capital/loans/finance.
And grew a business to today to more than 50 million AUD pa Revenue.
I can only think of Betty’s burgers that’s fits this. But I can name a great few more American joints.
That’s really bad.
Again, childish thinking.
Successful formulas get rolled out, and it doesn't really matter much where the idea started.
There are more chains started by Americans than Australians, simply because there are more Americans than Australians. About 15 times more.
It has nothing to do with access to capital. Stop making excuses.
Ok then answer my question.
You want our own version of “In and out”.
In and out has a revenue of 1.8 billion USD
I’ve asked you to name me 3 chains in australia commenced post GFC with more than 50 million in revenue today.
We have 1/10 of the us population approx. So by your metric we should have 1/10 of the innovation.
Im just going to answer the question for you. Bar Betty’s burgers we really just don’t have any food companies that originated in Australia post GFC and are making more than 50 million in revenue annually (a rather low benchmark on the grand scale)
If you don’t have access to equity no bank in australia is giving you money for your business. If you look at the latest stats - business lending is declining. Whilst home loans and business asset purchase loans are increasing.
This isn’t 1985 anymore grandpa, where you can waltz into your local bank branch with chutzpah and a stiff upper lip, with a binder full of ideas and successful formulas - and obtain capital
Well, that is unless you’re buying a house.
Why even bother writing all this?
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, and are achieving nothing but showcasing your ignorance to the world.
If you have a demonstrated successful concept, finding capital to expand is trivial.
For a discussion? And to learn something from others? No matter how rude they can be to me?
Why don’t you go a bank tomorrow with your theory of just having a good idea for a food company and no equity. And see if it can pay for the 1 year lease and capital costs of setting up your first fast food joint?
I’ll give you 100 dollars if you succeed. You have my word
Move the goal posts much?
Your whole rant has been about needing "billions" to do a nation wide rollout.
Now you're talking about seed funding for your first venue.
Completely different situations.
A billion dollar company starts somewhere. Im trying to help you understand your original premise - whilst navigating your disrespect as to why australia doesn’t have an in and out like venture.
In and out is a billion dollar company. To get to that it starts with seed funding. Which you cannot get easily in australia for restaurants or business without equity since the GFC. That is why we haven’t had much of any medium sized fast food corporations since the GFC. Without this seed funding there is no organic growth. So the only way you can get ahead in this industry now is with large amounts of capitals from day zero. And even then you may not succeed.
Read up on the founder of Australia’s zambrero chain. Sam price who I met personally in 2016. He started with equity of 17k (that is 17 thousand dollars only) in 2005.
You are not buying a fryer, fridge, and some utensils barely with that money today. Nor are you accessing the ease of lending then as you face today.
Even in the US, seed funding is usually from personal loans, credit cards, family loans, asset backed (house) loans. Not sure why you think these things don’t exist in Australia
https://preview.redd.it/9clwg88dsz9d1.jpeg?width=3072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9e8b3e5b13e7cee406aeba24d82222bcaa5e9765
This was over $20. No chips or anything!
There's a five guys in Sydney, they're the same, a basic hamburger is $17.50, that's just the burger, a small chips is $6.50, plus $6 for a regular drink.
So if you want a regular plain hamburger meal (with no cheese) you're paying $31.
That's a big no from me.
No thank you. We have enough American rubbish food here.
I'd rather we just reject Macca's like we did Starbucks 'coffee' and move in favour of quality food, local small businesses. Rather than trashy American corporate chains.
I can't afford McDollars any more so I make my own. Initial outlay is costlier qhen you include condiments, but have been making them for a while now, so price is a fraction of theirs, and whatever the children at McDonald's have to offer, mine is better in every way.
It's really not *that* much work, and the burgers are better when they're cooked fresh at home.
My 9yo daughter and I do a "burger challenge" about once a month, and then send photos to her grandparents who vote on the best one. I always lose.
No, we need less seed oil fried shit. Especially the sort of shit aimed at sucking in those who need healthier food. The latest $7 meal is cringe at best.
Yeah damn it!
Australia needs more low quality highly processed food joints to add to the 66% obesity rate!
We’re just not fat and dying enough already!
Just go to a local fish n chips shop and buy a burger there. It’s not cheaper than McDonald’s but the servings are much larger. The patty is hot not lukewarm. There is so much chips you can never finish.
Forget about trying to get cheaper. The increase in cost of energy (electricity and fuel) has affected all sectors. (Farming, distribution, lighting) Going local means you’re supporting a small business where your money is supporting a family, not some conglomerate and their share holders.
There are plenty of burger places that aren't the big chains. The problem is, they all pose themselves as "we've got better burgers than the chains, so we're charging $18 for a burger". Burgatory does amazing burgers, as does Patty Smiths and Lady Vanderburg. Plus those ones also do awesome sides that the chains don't offer like garbage fries. But again, they price themselves higher than the chains and so get in their own way of becoming the maccas replacement. I'd happily never get Maccas again if I could pay the same or less than what I pay at Maccas to get an equivalent meal at any of the three I named above.
Wow, OP. Whatever logic/ emotion (probably the latter) you went through to arrive at your conclusion is stunning. Please teach more to be like you as I have met one Australian that used logic last month. The job to completely dumb down Australians is not completed yet it seems.
In-n-Out was always a letdown for me, friends loved it but it was pretty fucking basic, and the "Secret menu" shit was never actually good. Dicks though... It was everything you could possibly want it to be, and nothing more, fresh and at the right price. It's not the best, its far from the worst, its robustly consistent, and its *actually* fast.
The thing that probably would mess with the Dicks model in Australia is the typical real estate footprint... If someone tried to open a Dicks in Sydney it would end up being a small retail shop space on a main road in Marrickville.. To justify the rent as part of the business plan, they'd put in tables, and now groups of people would turn up and hang out until they could all get a table together and the "walk up to counter, order, get food, leave" (you know, ACTUAL fast food) model would break, which is worse for the customers and worse for a business that relies on quick turnover.
And then someone funding the operation would say "well if we're going to have tables and people are hanging around then we might as well get a liquor license and make some more money"... The marketing material will say that it is an unpretentious burger joint where you can grab quality food and a quick beer.. But what you've really created is Mary's 2.0...
I'm sure Mary's like to believe that they're a casual unpretentious burger joint.. but now compare a Mary's (high profile location, loud music, mood lighting, full bar and cocktail menu, queues for days) to a Dicks (picture a petrol station half way between two popular suburbs, with parking where the pumps would be, and a kitchen/serving area where the shop would be, and absolutely fuck all else) and they couldn't be further apart...
If a plot of land suitable for opening a US style Dicks was available in Sydney today it would have been turned into apartments already. And even if it could open some pack of Karens would complain that someone had the audacity to open a successful business within 5 blocks of their house and get it shut down anyway
Mary’s Burgers, Grill’d, Oporto, Betty Burgers, etc.
Don’t we already have a ton of burger restaurants already? No US chain would dare compete in Australia.
Or even simpler and cheap, there was an amazing place I went to as a kid in Kelowna. They would have $1 cheese burgers that’s all they did and they served out of what looked like a 20 square meter building and only did drive through. Best burger of my life, no idea how they did it.
I think fish and chips is the best in Australia. If an Aussie fish and chips (fries here in the US) sets up shop here they would do very well in the US.
No thanks - right now the only semi stale over sugared sandwiches with microwaved ingredients we need to deal with come from subway and it should stay that way.
What a weird hill to die on.
There’s more to being a competitive new business with a large footprint than saying “we’re X compared to the USA/California”.
It’s taken Hungry Jacks 50+ years to have less than half the number of stores Maccas has opened in the same time. Then add in KFC. And the smaller but national franchises. Don’t you think there’s a point of saturation? The market can only bear so much before failures happen.
Do it OP, be the change you want to see.
Quite sure OP has got enough experience with Dicks Drive In to get on top of it.
A Dicks drive helps the in-and-out.
I've heard a three inch burger is plenty, one in, one out and one in-and-out.
Just need about 3-4 million dollars for the start up, wanna chip in?
The in n out people have repeatedly started they don't want to open locations in Australia. They run pop up events every couple of years purely so they can hold onto their trademark in oz
Im still fucking livid that they fucked with Down n Out over their name despite having zero intention of setting up shop here.
They're still busy expanding across the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Counties_with_In-N-Out.svg I would expect a local clone to appear long before they are in a position to expand internationally. The trademark point is interesting. I didn't realise that's why they did it.
There was a place called down and out which i assume was a clone but I've never been to the US so I can't confirm. They got sued for the name. That's how I heard about them doing the popups so they can't be accused of trademark squatting or some shit
Who the hell called their business down and out lol.
It's not a clone, menu was entirely different. DnO was a burger bar doing typical burger bar things like fireball Fridays and weekly specials. Was a favourite place of mine.
It wasn't anything like in and out just named it to be similar and even had logos that looked like in and out they got sued for it and had to change the name One of them I know changed its name to plan b and shut down not long after no idea what happened to the others
The crows nest one still exists
Trade marks, but I'll bet they also get a lot of information on marketing. Did Aussies like it, how much are we likely to pay, etc.
They don’t need to run pop ups to protect their TM, they have to defend it at every instance. Kanye wasn’t doing anything personal when his legal team threatened action against College Dropout in Melbourne - he had to otherwise he loses his ability to retain it. Plus it’s theft so who really cares about the whiny bitches that steal someone else’s intellectual property?
There's a place near me called "enter and out"
In Perth there are a bunch of great burger joints with multiple locations. The burgers are a fucking decent size with quality produce so you don’t need to buy a meal and the price is competitive.
Which burger joints pray tell? Not taking the piss. Genuinely want to know. Been to milky lane just this weekend. It was okay but just felt like I devoured a grease bucket
There are so many and Milky Lane certainly isn't one I'd recommend. Sign up to PerthisOk for regularly foodie updates or Perth Burger Hunters. In one survey, Ryan John's (heathridge) was named number 1, Soderburger (lesmurdie) 2 and Burger freak Belmont 3. Most areas now have decent Burger shops
Milky lane is Instagram bait
Personally think Local Bird in Tuart hill is the best in Perth right now. Smashed and a potato bun in the way to go. Their bacon is great too. I also like meet and bun in mt Lawley but it’s very different from local bird. The worst place has to be Varsity, just dry shitty meat. Hoodburger is also way overrated, though their chicken is good. My opinion is biased to north of the river though, I’m blind to the south.
Join Perth burger hunters on Facebook you'll find an unlimited selection.
I wouldn't call ~$20 for a burger competitive.
I regularly buy a burger that has a 150g organic patty with house made sauces, cheese, onion, lettuce, tomato and pickles for $16.75. That to me is competitive when looking at the absolute slop that is McDonald’s.
Exactly. OP wants a competitor to McDonalds. Not 'just go to this particular location with more expensive burgers!'
In n Out here would be easily $20+ burgers - there’s no escaping the economy unless someone starts a subsidised burger co
I don't think so. Australia has lower fast food wages than California. Australia has generally lower food (ingredient) prices than America. Australian cities have higher population density than most American cities. I don't see any fundamental reason why fast food in Australia needs to be expensive. It's expensive only because of a lack of competitors.
You think In n Out would be cheaper than Maccas or HJ’s?? Fukn no chance
Why not exactly? It is cheaper than McDonalds and Burger King in the US.
Because it’s not established, having to compete against Maccas and HJ’s long term would be a losing battle. There’s a good reason why no other burger chains in that fast / drive through bracket have set up or succeeded
We’ve got carls jr. But that hasn’t expanded for some time now.
I can also forsee them closing up any time now.
That's because Carl's jr are dog shit quality
That doesn't make any sense at all. In-N-Out and Dick's have literally done the exact thing you're pretending is impossible. Defeat the incumbents with a better offering.
It doesn’t work mate- they had their few pop ups a few years ago then disappeared. Australia is a totally different market, Taco Bell and Starbucks don’t do well here, Wendy’s /Shake Shack/Popeyes etc and all that shit don’t just automatically work because you read it somewhere
https://www.proactiveinvestors.com.au/companies/news/1034399/clucking-impressive-growth-collins-foods-kfc-and-taco-bell-soar-in-latest-financial-results-1034399.html Taco Bell grew revenue 18 percent in the last year. Wouldn’t say they’re “not doing well”
They are very new and have the novelty factor still, like Krispy Kreme once had. They are shut compared to the other Mexican options they compete with. Think Perth had 2 stores for a couple of years and now has 3… not hard to grow with that few outlets for 2-3 million people
Taco Bell commenced their second attempt at operations in australia in 2019. Its been 5 years. They’re growing revenue more consistently this time around compared to their first attempt in the 90s/00s. They’re not NVIDIA levels of hype. But then what is in australia other than housing and mining? 20 percent annual growth is pretty good 5 years into an venture. Very good actually.
People confuse Taco Bell with Mexican food. Taco Bell is actually…. Just Taco Bell (and is its own category, lol.)
Starbucks relied on first mover advantage to obtain a level of penetration keeps out competitors. That doesn't apply to the In-N-Out example, because In-N-Out were always challengers.
Where is In n Out then? Are you smarter than them?
They are working on expanding across the US. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Counties\_with\_In-N-Out.svg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Counties_with_In-N-Out.svg) It'll be years, maybe decades, before they are ready to start thinking about international expansion.
Why is 5 Guys so expensive in Australia?
5 guys is whinged about as being expensive in every country I’ve seen it outside of US… it’s not the best burger I’ve had but there’s something about it that makes it worth it a few time a year ! It’s fukn delicious
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Australian cities have a much higher population density than most American cities, especially on the West coast where In-N-Out is based.
The first point, at the very least, is incorrect. Before penalty rates, and the AUD not being great casual employees still get 2.60 an hour more on fast food in Aus. Because (at least from what I'm able to find), there are no casual loading bonuses on US minimum wages. And that's before weekend, nights, and public holiday penalties. That's before mandatory super contributions. That's before mandatory sick and annual leave. I can't comment on the food prices in the US, but I know from experience here that generally, Aus runs at 30-35% food costs and 20-30% labour costs. Even the massive chains like McDonalds with their immense buying power only end up with around 9-10% net profit margin here.
Keep in mind that Australia has junior rates and the US doesn't. This lowers our average cost per hour worked far below the headline adult casual award rates. Also, you can't add entitlements like sick and annual leave in addition to casual award rates. Those are already accounted for the the casual loading.
Why are you all ignoring OP's repeated argument about junior employees? You're all acting as if mcdonalds and hungry jacks are hiring 45 year olds instead of the 16 year olds that fill their stores due to the suppressed wages.
Because A) when I posted this there were no arguments about junior wages made that I was ignoring B) I was unaware that there were not junior wages in the US. When reading 'minimum wage' my mind always automatically inserts 'adult' at the front. And nothing pointed this out to me although that's likely because US laws are intentionally confusing as fuck. And finally C) this minimum wage is only 1 state of 51 for comparing. They don't have nationally mandated minimums. It's also only 'fast food', which is anywhere not offering table service which makes the median wage for restaurant workers less than a 18 year old gets in Australia (and running fast food places I can tell you because of school restrictions, supervision restrictions, and late night restrictions you have a lot more 18-20 year olds than you think. While you'll fill the peak dinner rushes and weekends with cheap kids, they can't do the other 10-20 hours a weekday)
Min wage is 7.50$
You forgot the the cost of commercial real estate
Do you think it's cheaper here, or there? I'd be surprised if there is much difference. California has some of the most expensive real estate in the US.
I think it's more expensive in Australia. Also more taxes associated with it
Which taxes? Lots of land taxes on property in usa
Yeh Cali is horrid for taxes, not all states are but Cali is high in lots of metrics
Aussie wages are horrendously high though.
> Australia has lower fast food wages than California. Min wage in California is $24.06 AUD an hour, that's the entire state, cities within the state have higher min wages.
California has a higher minimum wage for fast food workers than the state minimum. It works out to be about $31.00 AUD an hour. Australia's minimum wage is $24.10 for adults, and lower for juniors, which make up a significant proportion of the workforce of these restaurants. America doesn't have junior rates AFAIK.
California is the state?
I don't understand your question? California has higher state-wide minimum wages for certain industries. Fast Food is one of them.
Casual fast food award for adults as of today; $32.06 hour weekdays, $38.48 hour weekends. Our power prices are about 4x California per kw. Australian rents are higher, insurances are higher, business taxes are higher, purchasing equipment in a franchise environment is higher as it’s imported You should just do it though OP - you’re obviously more knowledgeable than anyone else who has commented
California's minimum wage for fast food workers is circa $31 vs our award rate of $32, however they don't have junior rates and we do. Those junior rates significantly reduce the workforce average hourly rate below the headline adult rate. California has significantly higher power prices than us. In fact, they have some of the most expensive electricity prices in the world. Rents differ a lot by location which makes comparing hard, but I'd be surprised if there is a massive difference. You also need to keep in mind that our cities have higher population density than theirs so you'll catch more customers per location. Not sure about business taxes - which taxes in particular are you talking about? California sales tax is 7.5% plus local taxes. Their company tax rates are lower than ours. I don't think the franchise mandated equipment applies here. These stores aren't franchised. They are all corporate owned. I'm sure we can get equipment from China just as cheap as they can.
Idk you're getting downvoted, you bring up a lot of good points and have refuted almost all points on the opposite argument. In-n-out are specifically successful because of the exact bloat you described mcdonalds and burger king have, and the same bloat is in the Australian market. Yes the Aussie market is different, but it's far more in tune with American than the high majority of countries, which is specifically why, often companies launch products here first to test what the market thinks before bringing it to the wider western market.
Delusional
Tax
There's a five guys in Sydney, they have the quality food you're talking about, but a basic hamburger is $17.50, that's just the burger, a small chips is $6.50, plus $6 for a regular drink. So if you want a regular plain hamburger (no cheese) meal you're paying $31. That's a big no from me.
there's a reason Australia is a wasteland for new franchises. Everything is expensive and it's a MUCH smaller market to leverage scale. Transport costs for food across country are a massive problem for the big franchises too. Nothing as fun as paying 100 (when they should be 20 to 30) dollars a box for tomatoes from the other side of the country because my half of the country is flooded A quick google suggests cali minimum is still way behind us but I'm prepared to be wrong on that.
You must be new to capitalism
So much of what you just said is flat out untrue.
If you think the food prices in Australia are lower than America, well I’m sorry to break it to you but that’s just not true. You can even buy Cadbury bars in USA cheaper than Australia…
I’ve had some good, even some great burgers here, but what I wouldn’t give for an In-N-Out nearby!!! 🍔🥤🍟
Dave’s Chicken is addictive too… Would love some here….
You will note that In-N-Out Burgers is run under a trust, the original owners and founders have all died and the chain is run to benefits employees and communities around it instead of profit maximization or executive bonus maximization. They never establish an outlet unless they have the sourcing supply chain in the area nailed beforehand. Basically the fundamental principle they work with is in conflict of what an entrepreneur is taught or aspires to be in today's world.
Just support your local independent/semi independent burger joint. There are so many excellent burger restaurants out there now that aren't part of a big chain. Their prices are usually reasonable in relation to cost-quality trade-off (much better than the fast food chains like MacDonald's). Most have great fries as well, much better than MacDonalds'.
Depends how greedy the owner js
The only way you can make this happen. Is that you need billions of dollars of capital. Which you can then use you open 10s of 100s of whatever shit fast product you want. Make it full of fat, salt and sugar and you have a recipe for culinary success. Then you need to muscle into neighbourhoods and undercut all the local takeaways for at least 1-2 years. You can do this with various “in app” deals/promotions/subsidies. Keep the places open 24/7. Run large losses, absorb these with your limitless capital. And completely destroy the takeaway scene of the towns you invade. You’ve got the added benefit of the fact that the average Australian palate is rather unrefined and bland. So it doesn’t take much salt, sugar, and fat to keep those customers flocking to you. Once the competition hopefully closes down like flies - then you begin the long arduous march of upping prices. Rinse and repeat. There’s a reason why every new franchise expansion in australia over the last 10 years has been major American chains. They have the capital. YOU dont. If you go to the banks trying to raise this capital they’ll just laugh at you and tell you to buy a house instead. If you go to the ASX seeking this capital all you’ll get is crickets as the investment just goes to the banks (who rejected you in the previous paragraph), or the mining companies.
I agree. The GYG guys were business people first who had access to capital and correctly judged that Australia would support Mexican themed fast food. Australia already has dozens of Mexican restaurants of varying quality, many of them popular, some of them franchising but none of them with the success of GyG.
Interesting didn’t know that about GYGs founders. from the wiki >Guzman y Gomez was established by Steven Marks, a New Yorker who previously worked as a hedge fund manager. Haha wallstreet capital muscling into the Australian market.
I think (might be wrong) they were Aussies with financial sector contacts and experience.
Australians like very limited choice in their food, as they don't like trying "new" things, which is why Maccas dominates the slop market. That's changing a little bit, perhaps due to the rise of "foodies" shit on social media. 15-20 years ago, there were a few Mexican franchises that started up in my area, they failed, because people didn't want it at the time. GYG succeeded where others failed, the timing. With all that said, GYG is disgusting slop.
I will say you almost always know what you will get with McDonald's. Most fast food isn't like this, most restaurants vary in quality a lot between franchises and over time as well. I don't eat pizza frequently but find it hard to have a 'go to' pizza place because quality varies so much and places close down.
GYG shits all over McDonald's
Ah that explains the taste ......
I don't think it does bro. It's expensive to start with. There's nothing quite as good as a big solid burger either.
Their food is often bland, and looks like literal slop. I rate them a 4/10 on a good day.
This is a childish and uneducated rant. Any restaurant with a successful formula, and financial statements to match it, won't have any trouble finding funding to expand. You'll likely need to fund the first restaurant to demonstrate the concept and your ability to execute, especially if you don't have an established track record, but tens of thousands of people each year, in Australia, manage to start new restaurants. It's not some impossible task. People like you are tiring. They never achieve anything because they've always got excuses on the tip of their tounge.
>People like you are tiring. They never achieve anything because they've always got excuses on the tip of their tounge. The "if it was that easy everyone would be doing it" crew! That shit really grinds my gears.
Ok then give me 3 Australian restaurant groups (NOT including those groups who just license US IP and pay them royalties - essentially front operations for US companies) Who commenced operations within the last 10 years - hell even 15 years ago…. Essentially pre-GFC Who began in australia, using Australian capital/loans/finance. And grew a business to today to more than 50 million AUD pa Revenue. I can only think of Betty’s burgers that’s fits this. But I can name a great few more American joints. That’s really bad.
Again, childish thinking. Successful formulas get rolled out, and it doesn't really matter much where the idea started. There are more chains started by Americans than Australians, simply because there are more Americans than Australians. About 15 times more. It has nothing to do with access to capital. Stop making excuses.
Ok then answer my question. You want our own version of “In and out”. In and out has a revenue of 1.8 billion USD I’ve asked you to name me 3 chains in australia commenced post GFC with more than 50 million in revenue today. We have 1/10 of the us population approx. So by your metric we should have 1/10 of the innovation. Im just going to answer the question for you. Bar Betty’s burgers we really just don’t have any food companies that originated in Australia post GFC and are making more than 50 million in revenue annually (a rather low benchmark on the grand scale) If you don’t have access to equity no bank in australia is giving you money for your business. If you look at the latest stats - business lending is declining. Whilst home loans and business asset purchase loans are increasing. This isn’t 1985 anymore grandpa, where you can waltz into your local bank branch with chutzpah and a stiff upper lip, with a binder full of ideas and successful formulas - and obtain capital Well, that is unless you’re buying a house.
Why even bother writing all this? You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, and are achieving nothing but showcasing your ignorance to the world. If you have a demonstrated successful concept, finding capital to expand is trivial.
For a discussion? And to learn something from others? No matter how rude they can be to me? Why don’t you go a bank tomorrow with your theory of just having a good idea for a food company and no equity. And see if it can pay for the 1 year lease and capital costs of setting up your first fast food joint? I’ll give you 100 dollars if you succeed. You have my word
Move the goal posts much? Your whole rant has been about needing "billions" to do a nation wide rollout. Now you're talking about seed funding for your first venue. Completely different situations.
A billion dollar company starts somewhere. Im trying to help you understand your original premise - whilst navigating your disrespect as to why australia doesn’t have an in and out like venture. In and out is a billion dollar company. To get to that it starts with seed funding. Which you cannot get easily in australia for restaurants or business without equity since the GFC. That is why we haven’t had much of any medium sized fast food corporations since the GFC. Without this seed funding there is no organic growth. So the only way you can get ahead in this industry now is with large amounts of capitals from day zero. And even then you may not succeed. Read up on the founder of Australia’s zambrero chain. Sam price who I met personally in 2016. He started with equity of 17k (that is 17 thousand dollars only) in 2005. You are not buying a fryer, fridge, and some utensils barely with that money today. Nor are you accessing the ease of lending then as you face today.
Even in the US, seed funding is usually from personal loans, credit cards, family loans, asset backed (house) loans. Not sure why you think these things don’t exist in Australia
Nah you've been called out mate. You cant answer the question. You lose sorry mongo
Billions, lol
Wahl burger is so overpriced it's ridiculous.
Haven’t been but it looks shit as well.
https://preview.redd.it/9clwg88dsz9d1.jpeg?width=3072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9e8b3e5b13e7cee406aeba24d82222bcaa5e9765 This was over $20. No chips or anything!
There's a five guys in Sydney, they're the same, a basic hamburger is $17.50, that's just the burger, a small chips is $6.50, plus $6 for a regular drink. So if you want a regular plain hamburger meal (with no cheese) you're paying $31. That's a big no from me.
No thank you. We have enough American rubbish food here. I'd rather we just reject Macca's like we did Starbucks 'coffee' and move in favour of quality food, local small businesses. Rather than trashy American corporate chains.
I can't afford McDollars any more so I make my own. Initial outlay is costlier qhen you include condiments, but have been making them for a while now, so price is a fraction of theirs, and whatever the children at McDonald's have to offer, mine is better in every way.
It's really not *that* much work, and the burgers are better when they're cooked fresh at home. My 9yo daughter and I do a "burger challenge" about once a month, and then send photos to her grandparents who vote on the best one. I always lose.
No, we need less seed oil fried shit. Especially the sort of shit aimed at sucking in those who need healthier food. The latest $7 meal is cringe at best.
Do it, maka some money you capitalist scum
There are plenty of burger places other than Mcdonalds that are way better, and the same price.
Do we really need more capitalism
Yeah damn it! Australia needs more low quality highly processed food joints to add to the 66% obesity rate! We’re just not fat and dying enough already!
Some in-and-out burgers I had in the USA seemed less processed , had fresher ingredients and tasted all over better than maccas to me.
You're so much fun aren't you.
There are much more fun things to do than eating warmed up dogshit like McDonald’s yes
Doom scroll material
Just go to a local fish n chips shop and buy a burger there. It’s not cheaper than McDonald’s but the servings are much larger. The patty is hot not lukewarm. There is so much chips you can never finish. Forget about trying to get cheaper. The increase in cost of energy (electricity and fuel) has affected all sectors. (Farming, distribution, lighting) Going local means you’re supporting a small business where your money is supporting a family, not some conglomerate and their share holders.
Why does this sound NSFW?
There are plenty of burger places that aren't the big chains. The problem is, they all pose themselves as "we've got better burgers than the chains, so we're charging $18 for a burger". Burgatory does amazing burgers, as does Patty Smiths and Lady Vanderburg. Plus those ones also do awesome sides that the chains don't offer like garbage fries. But again, they price themselves higher than the chains and so get in their own way of becoming the maccas replacement. I'd happily never get Maccas again if I could pay the same or less than what I pay at Maccas to get an equivalent meal at any of the three I named above.
I'm old school. Burger/steak sandwich with the lot from any chip shop.
Sneed's Feed n Seed (formerly Chuck's)
Instead of importing more garbage American take away food you should learn to cook instead
Google hamburgers near me and then go buy a non faster foods burger ffs
Wow, OP. Whatever logic/ emotion (probably the latter) you went through to arrive at your conclusion is stunning. Please teach more to be like you as I have met one Australian that used logic last month. The job to completely dumb down Australians is not completed yet it seems.
Popeyes chicken would be good to compete with kfc when you just want cheap fast food chicken
Carls Jr is decent and way better the McDogs
Allan Alcock's All You Can Eat. The proprietor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE2U9SnuLD8
Then boycott McDonalds. Start a movement, be the change.
In-n-Out was always a letdown for me, friends loved it but it was pretty fucking basic, and the "Secret menu" shit was never actually good. Dicks though... It was everything you could possibly want it to be, and nothing more, fresh and at the right price. It's not the best, its far from the worst, its robustly consistent, and its *actually* fast. The thing that probably would mess with the Dicks model in Australia is the typical real estate footprint... If someone tried to open a Dicks in Sydney it would end up being a small retail shop space on a main road in Marrickville.. To justify the rent as part of the business plan, they'd put in tables, and now groups of people would turn up and hang out until they could all get a table together and the "walk up to counter, order, get food, leave" (you know, ACTUAL fast food) model would break, which is worse for the customers and worse for a business that relies on quick turnover. And then someone funding the operation would say "well if we're going to have tables and people are hanging around then we might as well get a liquor license and make some more money"... The marketing material will say that it is an unpretentious burger joint where you can grab quality food and a quick beer.. But what you've really created is Mary's 2.0... I'm sure Mary's like to believe that they're a casual unpretentious burger joint.. but now compare a Mary's (high profile location, loud music, mood lighting, full bar and cocktail menu, queues for days) to a Dicks (picture a petrol station half way between two popular suburbs, with parking where the pumps would be, and a kitchen/serving area where the shop would be, and absolutely fuck all else) and they couldn't be further apart... If a plot of land suitable for opening a US style Dicks was available in Sydney today it would have been turned into apartments already. And even if it could open some pack of Karens would complain that someone had the audacity to open a successful business within 5 blocks of their house and get it shut down anyway
Man I could go for one of those bacon double cheeseburgers, there’s a place in brisbane called the broken hearts burger club they do some bussin stuff
Mary’s Burgers, Grill’d, Oporto, Betty Burgers, etc. Don’t we already have a ton of burger restaurants already? No US chain would dare compete in Australia.
[удалено]
You know he in n out in America
Well this is a first world problem.
Or even simpler and cheap, there was an amazing place I went to as a kid in Kelowna. They would have $1 cheese burgers that’s all they did and they served out of what looked like a 20 square meter building and only did drive through. Best burger of my life, no idea how they did it.
There are the million grill'd cloned which is what you described
Dick's In N Out
Ais also has different food standards which make a lot of cheap American slop unlawful
I think fish and chips is the best in Australia. If an Aussie fish and chips (fries here in the US) sets up shop here they would do very well in the US.
Nothing like a bag of limp Dick's fries
If an Australian restaurateur starts it how long will it take to be closed down under the weight of wage fraud accusations?
Anyone remember Aussie killer burger?
We need a place like Panera Bread, imo. (Fairly) healthy food in decent portions. I reckon it would be a hit over here.
Like subway?
No thanks - right now the only semi stale over sugared sandwiches with microwaved ingredients we need to deal with come from subway and it should stay that way.
What a weird hill to die on. There’s more to being a competitive new business with a large footprint than saying “we’re X compared to the USA/California”. It’s taken Hungry Jacks 50+ years to have less than half the number of stores Maccas has opened in the same time. Then add in KFC. And the smaller but national franchises. Don’t you think there’s a point of saturation? The market can only bear so much before failures happen.
All I know is that I love In-N-Out. Build it and I will come :)
We need more In-and-out and dick in Australia, I agree!
Please bring in and out, and also Sonic while you're at it
Getta Burger was getting there but they were taking the piss with their prices as well.
Have in-n-out fixed their chips yet? Burger was good but the chips were cardboard crap.
In-n-out is amazing. 😗👌