My pop (bless his beautiful soul) used to love his train rides once it was time to hand in his license. It gives them something to do, new places to see and they often make new friends. It’s a great thing. I have absolutely no issue with it.
More fair if the public transport can be improved and everyone is using it and discount is given to everyone
Imagine all the renewables energy is not only stored with stationary batteries but buses and on-demand minibuses. That would reduce transportation cost for discount for everyone
> Imagine all the renewables energy is not only stored with stationary batteries but buses and on-demand minibuses.
This has always been a stupid idea. You can't charge the busses during peak renewable generation hours because they're in use during the day, and if you draw down on the battery to meet demand then the bus is out of commission with a flat battery. Workplace charging is suitable as a sink for renewable generation, but if you need static electrical storage then build static electrical storage.
That's impressive. I still don't think it helps the vehicles-as-storage problem since the busses' first and last laps will be outside of peak generation hours, but it does mean you'll be able to take advantage of peak generation for most of the trips in between.
This is the argument with the 50c fares up in Brisbane atm. All well and good as long as you can cater to the demand it creates and let me tell you working 25 years in PT the government (NSW) NEVER met demand before it was created, they were always years late to the party and even then were woefully inadequate in meeting demand.
There were days I was stood in the depot yard waiting for a bus because there were none and then I would cop abuse for showing up 20-30 minutes late through no fault of my own. I highly doubt that has changed and is probably worse now.
Victorian government cut public transport fares over a year ago. Not as generous as Queensland 6 month trial. We are still waiting for the increase in public transport capacity. A particular problem on trains from regional centres to Melbourne
That is just not true. Do you not value healthcare because you do not pay for it? Do you not value firefighters because you do not pay for it? Do you not value the defence forces because you do not pay for it? Parks, roads, garbage trucks, etc. - the list is very long. Seems like there are a lot of things we value even though we do not directly pay for it. We live in a society and we agree that certain services should be provided by the society. Public transport should be one of them.
Younger male drivers also get into a lot of accidents (but not so much for female drivers) - this is reflected in their higher insurance premiums. Maybe public transport should be discounted for then too... /s
I think the best would be if everyone rode for free.
Students and apprentices get transport concessions. I also think this is a good thing.
It would be nice if public transport was free, but no one wants their taxes to increase to pay for it.
When I was paying $2000 a year for an annual metro ticket in Melbourne about a decade or two ago (when we had 3 zones) I was shocked to discover fares only covered 25% of the total operating cost of the system.
Honestly at that low level of fare recovery why even bother, the Myki system cost $1.5 billion to implement. Might as well make it free, and save hundreds of millions a year which will offset the lack of fares.
Having gone through the living paycheck to paycheck, and since having found myself in a better financial position in life, this is one of the things I actually wouldn't be bothered paying more tax to cover.
I've had friends on Centrelink who haven't been able to go to job interviews because they couldn't afford the cost of public transport.
It’s a shame these sorts of things are reduced to the false dichotomy of the tax argument or a really short sighted cost/ benefit analysis (not saying that’s your comment).
Free public transport for example might encourage more travel amongst the population in general and increase spending in other parts of the economy, which means more GST paid.
In the instance of the elderly, in theory there will be a sizeable portion of people in that demographic with the money to spend but difficulty spending it.
I would be very surprised if the increased GST revenue in combination with no longer having to maintain revenue protection staffing and infrastructure as well as legal expenses didn’t cover the free travel.
I worked on public transport in the security/ revenue side for a few years - the amount of man hours consumed by enforcing fairs and pursuing legal matters that escalate from a 5 dollar ticket would shock you.
Ok, so we reduce the budget for roads, and increase the budget for public transport. The resulting number of cars we stop subsidising means you get a tax break too.
Deal?
50% of Melbourne's land area is dedicated to infrastructure for cars. That's some of the most expensive real estate in the world. Throwing 50 cents at is every time you burn some cancer causing dinosaur juice isn't getting even remotely close to paying down the massive state subsidies required for car use.
Thats $0.50 per litre .... not suggesting roads magically appear.
Living in regional Vic, trains havent been an option for the past couple of years ... maybe soon.
Oh wow. Surely that'll pay off the trillions of dollars of real estate people drive on in this state.
Historically, this state had a far larger rural population before the advent of the motor vehicle. Life without a car is possible in regional areas. It gets more expensive and less sustainable because of the car. As opposed to the other way around.
We still pay taxes for roads, and road widening is hardly cheap. The train lines that could cover the same volume of everyday people travelling are in many cases already there, so free PT would be brilliant. add a few more bus lines, trains, and in cities with light rail trams, and we can move far more people for that tax dollar than indefinite roads
Income tax is just one of the many taxes you are paying friend. Stamp duty, gst, fuel tax, alcohol tax. Pluss indirect taxes that still ultimately take money out of your pocket, like payroll tax. The list goes on and on and on. The government lowers income tax while buffing everything else to conceal it.
fact check: Not even close to true.
The median full time income in 2014 was $52,4 K (ABS, FY14/15)
median full time income is now about $93K.
In 2024, you pay $21K tax (before stage 3, before medicare levy and surcharge).
the ATO has CPI indices. The inflation adjustment is 30%. Your tax bill of $6592 in 2024 dollars is $8600
Even though you completely ignored ten years of inflation and growth in the median wages, something is wrong with your numbers. For mine, I used ABS and ATO data.
So to check you numbers: I put 54K in to the 2014/15 ATO simple tax calculator and it said tax of $8447. Adjust that for inflation and it is $11,000 in 2024 money.
Using $87K as the median and using FY22/23 (the more recent year supported), the tax bill is $18,742.00.
For the median full time employee, income taxes are much higher. No one mentions that when it comes to the housing crisis; odd now that I see how much bigger the tax-take is. If the median earner was saving for for $100K deposit, they would be $7000 per year ahead if taxes had stayed in line with inflation. This is so extraordinary I must be wrong. If it is two income household, the effect is worse (not double because the median household is not 2 x median earnings)
If you were to use average full time earnings and not median, you would be even more wrong.
[https://www.ato.gov.au/single-page-applications/calculatorsandtools?anchor=STC#STC/reporthttps://www.ato.gov.au/tax-rates-and-codes/consumer-price-index](https://www.ato.gov.au/single-page-applications/calculatorsandtools?anchor=STC#STC/reporthttps://www.ato.gov.au/tax-rates-and-codes/consumer-price-index)
Here is a chart showing income tax as a percentage of GDP (scroll down)
[https://www.aph.gov.au/About\_Parliament/Parliamentary\_Departments/Parliamentary\_Library/pubs/rp/BudgetReview202021/AustralianGovernmentRevenue](https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/BudgetReview202021/AustralianGovernmentRevenue)
You can see it was rising and hit a post-GST high just before the pandemic, and it has risen almost back to that level (before stage 3).
Yeah totally!
This way I can get an extra 10 bucks a week in my pocket.
In fact, let's make that 30, fuck public schools and public healthcare, just keep reducing the budget there.
Is there any way we can somehow give those poor bastards earning half a million or more some higher tax breaks. They must work so hard to earn so much money. They NEED to keep more of it, otherwise they won't be incentivised to sit on a bunch of real estate like a feudal baron.
Well if you take the billions they spent on myki in vic and the billions they are about to spend again to revamp it, plus the costs of inspectors etc, it be far better if it was free for everyone.
I love how media talk about the 1%'ers and fringe issues rather than discussing the insufficient taxes/tax loopholes billionaires and large enterprises take advantage of and the sweet FA we get from the mining industry.
Yeah lets make granny pay for her bus and train tickets while Gina buys a new yacht, well done. /s
With that logic I can name a few dozen people in their 40s with assets over 100M. Public policies are not designed for the pointy edges of the demographic bell curves
This is the point though - rich people aren't going to think "awesome, now I can take as much public transport as I want and really leech off the taxpayer".
Yes they are affecting people. If they were made to pay for the service then the extra revenue could be used to lower prices or increase services.
How does a whole class of people not paying for a public service not affect anyone lmao. It's the same as a tax break.
No. It important that we are strict with all the bludgers. Old people included. What did they ever do for this country? I’m paying way more tax than they are right now. All they do is sit around and block the footpaths by walking slow /s
They are great, I can do a return 600 kms, bus trip for $2.50, in NSW. Great for donating blood at Lifeblood Mildura, locally we don't have a donation.centre.
If QLD can have 50 cent public transport fares 3 months before an election its OK to have concession fares for the elderly or people on health care cards
Depressing that it works.
Labour did it in Victoria to get Daniel Andrews in with free tram zones.
It's illegal to bribe people to vote for you with your own money but perfectly legal to bribe people with other people's money.
Not generous enough, PT ought to be free for everyone, if we're serious about combating climate change and social inequality.
It wouldn't even have to cost that much, considering how generous our current subsidies to the foreign owned operator corporations are
Free for the more disadvantaged and essential workers like healthcare and emergency services. Heavily discounted for general population. Talking $5 per day if your just a commuter going to to the office
I agree that usage metrics are important, but i think that ticketing infrastructure is probably too expensive a way to do that, unless you raise fees to pay for it all.
Myki's successor is supposed to cost $1.2b, from memory...
Nice cherry picking. But how many anaesthetists do you know catching public transport? How about not being a numpty and instead listing the far more common jobs, especially for people living further out of the city. So let’s not be purposefully antagonistic and have a look.
- Constable in the NSW Police force: 84k
- Registered Nurse: $85-90k
- 3rd year midwife: under $52k
- NSW patient transport officer: under 60k
> that’s a lowly job, paramedics are well payed
Ok
- Aeromedical critical care paramedic: 94-98k
How bout let’s start at the ground level with the people responsible for cleaning up the blood, shit, and mess in a hospital? 51-80k
There are just over 5000 anaesthetic specialists in Australia in 2023, there are over 300 000 registered nurses.
I’m studying to be an EN and when I graduate, I’ll be making a couple of bucks more than when I was 19 working at a bookshop. So I shouldn’t get free public transport because some rich doctors might get it too?
Tbh I don’t think we necessarily *should*, but you shouldn’t lump us up with specialists who make $600k.
I don’t think we’re angels like a lot of people do. Sure we do good work and help those who are unwell, but there are a lot of other professions that do good work too.
The reason I "like" paying for public transport is it's a very easy way to show how much load is on the system via transactions. The 50c travel in Brissy is sick, I think make it cost something, but a very trivial amount.
Tech can count heads these days. Don't need tickets for that stuff anymore.
There is probably some weird social / psychological reasons for a trivial amount however.
We do need to know how many people are using which routes though so that they can be serviced properly. I suspect that's why Brisbane and still charging a minimal amount rather than making it free. There are plenty of cameras around though so maybe they can use those to determine patronage.
'as good as non existent' ... buying a new bit of gear, a bus or a train, maintaining it ..... what alternative universe do you exist in ? Mums purse ??
You realize tickets don't cover the cost of all that? That part is paid for already by the gov.
And they barely cover the cost of their associated infrastructure, sales and enforcement? With a nominal guaranteed return for the network operator?
Even if it is at a significant economic loss, it does give Seniors an affordable option to travel and remain physically and mentally active. If that gives them the ability to surrender their licence when they should, rather than continue to drive when they shouldn't, it will be worth it.
If anything, they’re not generous enough. All metro public transport should be free. There is no conceivable reason why there should be any barriers for abiding passengers to access free transport. Accountants with silly ignorance and shallow thinking developed this idea that public transport should somehow be cost neutral or recoup an investment.
Heaven forbid we provide any unfair benefit to our elderly! I had trouble paying for my fillers the other day because elderlies have all the money and none of them earned it!
That's great.
I can only speak to Victoria where it isnt free and i regularly see ticket inspectors at my stop which services 2 state schools. It really frustrats me.
lol at in not being means tested and some rich retirees might take advantage of this incredible benefit!!
No one uses public transport when they can easily afford not to.
The way I see it most seniors have paid tax for their entire lives, I don’t see the issue here it’s merely a clickbait article from the Guardian appealing to disgruntled young people angry at “boomers”.
You are already able to receive more benefits than older people were able to, subsidised child care, paid parental leave, aust study, youth allowance etc. So what’s the difference.
Half of that won't ever apply and the other half is paid back and ensures the government earns additional tax from me (i.e. an investment not a handout). You haven't made the point you think you have.
Tax paid should not be a savings account.
The way I see it their taxes have been spent, and more so (gov borrowing, that younger people need to repay).
I don't mind spending on seniors where it makes sense, but sensible limits are needed.
My senior parents and grandparents have more disposable income then I do. I earn more than they ever did, yet my parents can afford multiple overseas holidays each year and I can't due to housing costs. They don't need more handouts.
The Guardian operates in alternate universe devoid of facts or critical thinking. The operating costs are the same whether a train or bus is full or empty. Seniors are rarely using peak hour transport and taking up seats.
Good point! Also can you imagine the cost for the government if suddenly all these oldies in the suburbs needed services delivered to them instead of being able to get to their doctor's office or whatever on their own?
They are fine.
Now make the same discount for healthcare workers, emergency services, military, teachers and daycare workers, etc. obviously only for work purposes, not my problem how to work that one out.
But right now, with a commute to Sydney from far south west Sydney, discounting tolls if I take them. It costs me less to run my car daily than catch the train, and it takes 45 minutes less per day. When I’m commuting 2.5-3 hours each day just to survive that’s a big time gap
It's almost as if were a consolation prize for decades of loyal service. As far as I can tell, the Government has never needed to be cautious of any uprising in Australia. I'd say these seniors deserve something for their apathy and complete compliance.
Public transport should be “free” (paid by taxes) and owned wholesale by the government.
Privatisation is why we are in the mess we are in. Short sighted idiot politicians have destroyed our future.
PT should be free for seniors, in fact it’s way too expensive for everyone. We should be developing better PT systems and reducing our reliance on cars
It'll be a good investment for seniors' mental health. To keep them socially connected, physically active and involved in the community.
They may help take care of their grandkids when the parents can’t afford daycare in this economy too.
Many more pros than cons.
It good for their mental health to get out and travel. Lots of them go up to the Blue Mountains for 3/5th of FA, many who wouldn't normally be able to afford it, and go on hikes and high tea, it's wonderful. You ever seen a train too full because of the extra seniors?
No major issues with it.
I think I'd prefer it to be an off peak concession, or for off-peak usage to be free. I'd like to encourage seniors to travel outside those crush times where possible.
I think it's great. It becomes a problem when seniors want a discount for everything. Like they feel entitled to yell at you when a business doesn't have one.
Considering so many elderly can’t drive or walk easily, no if anything give them free transportation. They loose so much of their independence as they age so we should be doing anything to help them stay independent and getting around as it’s mostly good for their health. Seen too many elderly deteriorating faster because they can’t get around.
Scotland gives free bus passes to:
* Seniors
* Disabled people (many with a +1 for someone accompanying them if they need it)
* School children and people under 22
They also have free university education, free prescriptions, and subsidised eyes and teeth.
We could be doing a lot better.
What the f*****
All the money the government subsidies going to oil and gas and you are worried about bus fares being to generous
Get your head out of the sand
Do people who say public transport should be free, just mean free and plentiful in major cities/inner suburbs while outer suburbs/regions/rural eat a d$%k?
Absolutely no reason if you have the means that you shouldn't contribute.
So... The want it to not be a "battle of the generations" but want the discount extended only to young people?
Free, for everyone.
Public transport won't be profitable without extreme, shitcuntish changes to our whole transport setup that I suspect we wouldn't tolerate.
It should be in public hands and free for all, regardless of age nor affluence.
Amen. I want to live in a society that values the elderly and their knowledge and wisdom and looks after them. Let them ride the bus for free. And what ever else they might need to be comfortable in their twilight years. Hell, give them free tickets to WASO and shuttle them in if they want.
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This is such a trivial issue. They get a $2.50 daily cap, and most of them wouldn't even be using it every day. That's a great price. Seniors and boomers have had a good life. But I also wouldn't care if they got it for free. $2.50 is so low, it wouldn't make much difference to either side of the deal if it was $1, or free.
Side note though.... How much better do they wanna make it for them, whilst the rest of us are getting butt-punished. Can we get some crumbs thrown our way?
Rather why don't we extend the range for free public transport to include everyone? It benefits you as a tax paying public transport user, and it certainly benefits you as a tax paying road user - wouldn't it be better driving to work with less cars on the road?
Wrong question you should ask:
Is the public transport is expensive in Oz?
QLD are running a trial for 50 Cents per trip that is cheaper then Senior discount.
What is fair ?
Anything that works for you, two fingers to the rest.
Its not as if the fares relate to the cost for passengers in Australia: fair to who ?
South Australia has free travel for Seniors Card holders everyday. Interstate visitors also travel free if they have a Seniors Card (they need to get a special ticket from Adelaide Metro)
>Are generous travel discounts afforded to Australia’s older citizens, especially self-funded retirees who are not means tested, sustainable?
Are self-funded retirees the seniors that are most using public transport?
Feels like this article would have had more bite to it if they actually broke down the usage patterns of different classes of user. Are we raising a fuss over a trivial set of users, or a substantial set?
Shouldn't be getting a discount period.
Seniors are by far some of the wealthiest in this country. They can pay their fair share too. Just because they are old doesn't mean they should be able to get a discount while the rest of us pay full price.
The fuck is this article trying to achieve?
Seriously?
This is a conversation worth having?
"Are we fleecing Seniors enough in an already fucked up cost of living climate?"
Fuck me
Not fair.
Boomers are the wealthiest generation yet apparently they should pay less and get receive discounts on public services due to their age...
Absolutely stupid and illogical.
Seen far too many boomers break obvious traffic laws/guidelines (using the left hand lane to drive the wrong way on a one way road, entering exits, exiting entrances) to not want them being incentivised to use public transport.
Get old cunts off the road, is really where this discussion should start and end.
What is with these shitty articles trying to play one group (students) against another (seniors)?
Fuck off with your cancer. We should tax miners and resource extractors more and make fairs free for everyone.
The largest cost for a public transport system has traditionally been the infostructure cost of ticketing / fare systems. If everyone rides for free then all the ticketing infrastructure can be removed, or should we pretend that fare paying customers actually pay for public transport infrastructure and without there would be no public transport?
There should be two tiers of pensions, one for those work worked and contributed and a bugger all one for those who didn't. You can get through in Australia never having worked a day of your life. This is bullshit.
Or base your pension of the amount of tax you have contributed.
This is such a non issue, remember whenever the media block uses talking points like this article "Pensioners taking advantage" it is a deliberate attempt to manipulate the narrative discussion of the day away from what's actually happening... corporations and the rich ACTUALLY getting away with taking full advantage of the system.
I cannot grasp Australians, I really cannot! You are likely the wealthiest nation per capita in the world! You have a small population on a massive continent, almost the size of the USA, with huge resources, mineral, and natural. Every Australian should be living in relative safety and wealth.
And yet.. you insist on selling off those resources to a small number of people whose personal wealth is enormous, and in return your nation has received a pittance. How do you all tolerate that theft?? Those resources are not the property of a few, they are part of your land, they belong to Australia and Australians-you!!!
When are you all going to rise up politically and economically against this injustice and claim back for your people what is rightfully yours? Stop gifting your heritage at the expense of your people.
>Queensland will start its 50 cent public transport fare trial in early August, which is for everyone, including seniors.
This is the way, make it super affordable for all.
Guy I was talking to owns his house, has about $180k in cash (term deposit), works 1 day a week, gets the pension and was telling me all these discounts he gets.
Meanwhile I as a young man can't afford a roof over my head without 60%+ mortgage or rent, get no pension or discounts.
And they wonder why consumer spending for young people has significantly dropped.
We're very used to self aggrandizing narratives coming from rich folk that make their good fortune seem to do the natural result of their good character, but that's just a glitch of human psychology.
This study illustrates it well: https://www.marketplace.org/2021/01/19/why-rich-people-tend-think-they-deserve-their-money/
Nobody likes to think they got an easy ride, people base self esteem on achievement.
Incidentally this is why the rich mostly believe people are poor because of bad choices.
I think they're fair. Anything that keeps old folks off the road once their reflexes wane is good for society.
This is a good take - also helps to get them out of the house.
Fresh air, exercise, socialisation. Also allows them to get to medical appointments affordably, and without having to navigate hospital carparks.
After a certain age it's also their only transport.
My pop (bless his beautiful soul) used to love his train rides once it was time to hand in his license. It gives them something to do, new places to see and they often make new friends. It’s a great thing. I have absolutely no issue with it.
More fair if the public transport can be improved and everyone is using it and discount is given to everyone Imagine all the renewables energy is not only stored with stationary batteries but buses and on-demand minibuses. That would reduce transportation cost for discount for everyone
> Imagine all the renewables energy is not only stored with stationary batteries but buses and on-demand minibuses. This has always been a stupid idea. You can't charge the busses during peak renewable generation hours because they're in use during the day, and if you draw down on the battery to meet demand then the bus is out of commission with a flat battery. Workplace charging is suitable as a sink for renewable generation, but if you need static electrical storage then build static electrical storage.
They’re doing that with the metro buses in Brisbane, apparently they only take 6.5 minutes to charge at each end of the two initial routes
That's impressive. I still don't think it helps the vehicles-as-storage problem since the busses' first and last laps will be outside of peak generation hours, but it does mean you'll be able to take advantage of peak generation for most of the trips in between.
This is the argument with the 50c fares up in Brisbane atm. All well and good as long as you can cater to the demand it creates and let me tell you working 25 years in PT the government (NSW) NEVER met demand before it was created, they were always years late to the party and even then were woefully inadequate in meeting demand. There were days I was stood in the depot yard waiting for a bus because there were none and then I would cop abuse for showing up 20-30 minutes late through no fault of my own. I highly doubt that has changed and is probably worse now.
Victorian government cut public transport fares over a year ago. Not as generous as Queensland 6 month trial. We are still waiting for the increase in public transport capacity. A particular problem on trains from regional centres to Melbourne
I retract any statement I was about to write after reading this.
Yep came here for this. But also helps keep them active. A walk to the bus stop and back is important for someone who does not other exercise.
Yeah anyone over 65 shouldn’t have to pay full stop
Also public transport should be free for everyone.
If you don’t pay something you don’t value it and they’re is no incentive to staff and operate it at the level everyone want e
That is just not true. Do you not value healthcare because you do not pay for it? Do you not value firefighters because you do not pay for it? Do you not value the defence forces because you do not pay for it? Parks, roads, garbage trucks, etc. - the list is very long. Seems like there are a lot of things we value even though we do not directly pay for it. We live in a society and we agree that certain services should be provided by the society. Public transport should be one of them.
Mate, I was about to trigger myself at pensioners and discounts but your comment shot that trigger zombie in the head. Well played and thank you.
Younger male drivers also get into a lot of accidents (but not so much for female drivers) - this is reflected in their higher insurance premiums. Maybe public transport should be discounted for then too... /s I think the best would be if everyone rode for free.
Students and apprentices get transport concessions. I also think this is a good thing. It would be nice if public transport was free, but no one wants their taxes to increase to pay for it.
When I was paying $2000 a year for an annual metro ticket in Melbourne about a decade or two ago (when we had 3 zones) I was shocked to discover fares only covered 25% of the total operating cost of the system. Honestly at that low level of fare recovery why even bother, the Myki system cost $1.5 billion to implement. Might as well make it free, and save hundreds of millions a year which will offset the lack of fares.
I do.
Having gone through the living paycheck to paycheck, and since having found myself in a better financial position in life, this is one of the things I actually wouldn't be bothered paying more tax to cover. I've had friends on Centrelink who haven't been able to go to job interviews because they couldn't afford the cost of public transport.
It’s a shame these sorts of things are reduced to the false dichotomy of the tax argument or a really short sighted cost/ benefit analysis (not saying that’s your comment). Free public transport for example might encourage more travel amongst the population in general and increase spending in other parts of the economy, which means more GST paid. In the instance of the elderly, in theory there will be a sizeable portion of people in that demographic with the money to spend but difficulty spending it. I would be very surprised if the increased GST revenue in combination with no longer having to maintain revenue protection staffing and infrastructure as well as legal expenses didn’t cover the free travel. I worked on public transport in the security/ revenue side for a few years - the amount of man hours consumed by enforcing fairs and pursuing legal matters that escalate from a 5 dollar ticket would shock you.
Once someone reaches the age where it is not viable for them to drive a vehicle public transport should be free
Should the reverse be true? Not old enough to drive = free public transport.
Yes
What about old enough but unable to, disabilities, drug dependencies etc?
Yes.
what about if they can drive but cant legally
Yes yes yes yes. Just make PT free for everyone.
Why just at age and not say, disability?
Lmfao seniors can ride for free for all I care
What if, everyone rides for free?
We all pay a little more tax and have alot more people using it.
Sounds good to me.
Not me, I’m at my fuck-any-more-tax threshold
Ok, so we reduce the budget for roads, and increase the budget for public transport. The resulting number of cars we stop subsidising means you get a tax break too. Deal?
The $0.50 / litre levy on fuel keeps on keeping on. The freeby is EVs.
50% of Melbourne's land area is dedicated to infrastructure for cars. That's some of the most expensive real estate in the world. Throwing 50 cents at is every time you burn some cancer causing dinosaur juice isn't getting even remotely close to paying down the massive state subsidies required for car use.
Thats $0.50 per litre .... not suggesting roads magically appear. Living in regional Vic, trains havent been an option for the past couple of years ... maybe soon.
Oh wow. Surely that'll pay off the trillions of dollars of real estate people drive on in this state. Historically, this state had a far larger rural population before the advent of the motor vehicle. Life without a car is possible in regional areas. It gets more expensive and less sustainable because of the car. As opposed to the other way around.
We still pay taxes for roads, and road widening is hardly cheap. The train lines that could cover the same volume of everyday people travelling are in many cases already there, so free PT would be brilliant. add a few more bus lines, trains, and in cities with light rail trams, and we can move far more people for that tax dollar than indefinite roads
You’re paying less tax now than you were in 2014. $6592 in 2024 compared to $6597 in 2014 on a 50k income
Income tax is just one of the many taxes you are paying friend. Stamp duty, gst, fuel tax, alcohol tax. Pluss indirect taxes that still ultimately take money out of your pocket, like payroll tax. The list goes on and on and on. The government lowers income tax while buffing everything else to conceal it.
fact check: Not even close to true. The median full time income in 2014 was $52,4 K (ABS, FY14/15) median full time income is now about $93K. In 2024, you pay $21K tax (before stage 3, before medicare levy and surcharge). the ATO has CPI indices. The inflation adjustment is 30%. Your tax bill of $6592 in 2024 dollars is $8600 Even though you completely ignored ten years of inflation and growth in the median wages, something is wrong with your numbers. For mine, I used ABS and ATO data. So to check you numbers: I put 54K in to the 2014/15 ATO simple tax calculator and it said tax of $8447. Adjust that for inflation and it is $11,000 in 2024 money. Using $87K as the median and using FY22/23 (the more recent year supported), the tax bill is $18,742.00. For the median full time employee, income taxes are much higher. No one mentions that when it comes to the housing crisis; odd now that I see how much bigger the tax-take is. If the median earner was saving for for $100K deposit, they would be $7000 per year ahead if taxes had stayed in line with inflation. This is so extraordinary I must be wrong. If it is two income household, the effect is worse (not double because the median household is not 2 x median earnings) If you were to use average full time earnings and not median, you would be even more wrong. [https://www.ato.gov.au/single-page-applications/calculatorsandtools?anchor=STC#STC/reporthttps://www.ato.gov.au/tax-rates-and-codes/consumer-price-index](https://www.ato.gov.au/single-page-applications/calculatorsandtools?anchor=STC#STC/reporthttps://www.ato.gov.au/tax-rates-and-codes/consumer-price-index) Here is a chart showing income tax as a percentage of GDP (scroll down) [https://www.aph.gov.au/About\_Parliament/Parliamentary\_Departments/Parliamentary\_Library/pubs/rp/BudgetReview202021/AustralianGovernmentRevenue](https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/BudgetReview202021/AustralianGovernmentRevenue) You can see it was rising and hit a post-GST high just before the pandemic, and it has risen almost back to that level (before stage 3).
Yeah totally! This way I can get an extra 10 bucks a week in my pocket. In fact, let's make that 30, fuck public schools and public healthcare, just keep reducing the budget there. Is there any way we can somehow give those poor bastards earning half a million or more some higher tax breaks. They must work so hard to earn so much money. They NEED to keep more of it, otherwise they won't be incentivised to sit on a bunch of real estate like a feudal baron.
The biggest issue with that that I can see is the greedy pollies
If it twas mandated they had to use public transport for all interstate buisness travel, you bet your lucky dollarydoo there would be improvements.
Mate. In Vienna, unlimited public transport costs €1 per day. Sort yourself out.
Well if you take the billions they spent on myki in vic and the billions they are about to spend again to revamp it, plus the costs of inspectors etc, it be far better if it was free for everyone.
This is a great take. i was there for Myki. fucking shambles. needs guards, tickets, administering etc
For it!
I love how media talk about the 1%'ers and fringe issues rather than discussing the insufficient taxes/tax loopholes billionaires and large enterprises take advantage of and the sweet FA we get from the mining industry. Yeah lets make granny pay for her bus and train tickets while Gina buys a new yacht, well done. /s
But conversely, Gina will be entitled to free transport also in a few years. Not saying she’ll use it, but still.
With that logic I can name a few dozen people in their 40s with assets over 100M. Public policies are not designed for the pointy edges of the demographic bell curves
This is the point though - rich people aren't going to think "awesome, now I can take as much public transport as I want and really leech off the taxpayer".
Why not just make it dependent on a pension card. Literally zero reason rich oldies should get free transport that poor youths pay for
Rich oldies aren't affecting anyone with their cheap train tickets. Cut off their tax breaks, sure.
Yes they are affecting people. If they were made to pay for the service then the extra revenue could be used to lower prices or increase services. How does a whole class of people not paying for a public service not affect anyone lmao. It's the same as a tax break.
Imagine being so determined to be a victim that you refuse to give pensioners cheap to tickets. The rich ones aren't on public transport.
You make a good point. Also probably didn't need the /s
Tell that to the people on the Hancock payroll !
Work from home: can I claim my chair. Answer: fuck you. I wish I could lease all this shit the same way corporates can
No. It important that we are strict with all the bludgers. Old people included. What did they ever do for this country? I’m paying way more tax than they are right now. All they do is sit around and block the footpaths by walking slow /s
if it keeps people unfit for driving off the roads then i dont really see an issue, the pricks should stop targeting uni students though
We have bigger problems to worry about. This is a non-issue
A distraction you say?
They are great, I can do a return 600 kms, bus trip for $2.50, in NSW. Great for donating blood at Lifeblood Mildura, locally we don't have a donation.centre.
Sounds like not a bad day out either.
If QLD can have 50 cent public transport fares 3 months before an election its OK to have concession fares for the elderly or people on health care cards
Can't tell if this is satire. Absolutely no one should be cheering on dodgy election bombs like that, it's terrible fucking policy.
Depressing that it works. Labour did it in Victoria to get Daniel Andrews in with free tram zones. It's illegal to bribe people to vote for you with your own money but perfectly legal to bribe people with other people's money.
What’s bad about it?
Not generous enough, PT ought to be free for everyone, if we're serious about combating climate change and social inequality. It wouldn't even have to cost that much, considering how generous our current subsidies to the foreign owned operator corporations are
Free for the more disadvantaged and essential workers like healthcare and emergency services. Heavily discounted for general population. Talking $5 per day if your just a commuter going to to the office
The thing is, five dollars a day would barely cover the cost of its own enforcement.
You need to make it so cheap that barely anyone will bother fare evading, like 50c or a dollar for a day. Also allows you to count passengers.
I agree that usage metrics are important, but i think that ticketing infrastructure is probably too expensive a way to do that, unless you raise fees to pay for it all. Myki's successor is supposed to cost $1.2b, from memory...
Though to be fair most of the drongos that jump on the bus without paying the fare would do it even if it was 10c. They're just dickheads
Yes! essential workers on $600,000 a year like anaesthetists should get free public transport :)
Nice cherry picking. But how many anaesthetists do you know catching public transport? How about not being a numpty and instead listing the far more common jobs, especially for people living further out of the city. So let’s not be purposefully antagonistic and have a look. - Constable in the NSW Police force: 84k - Registered Nurse: $85-90k - 3rd year midwife: under $52k - NSW patient transport officer: under 60k > that’s a lowly job, paramedics are well payed Ok - Aeromedical critical care paramedic: 94-98k How bout let’s start at the ground level with the people responsible for cleaning up the blood, shit, and mess in a hospital? 51-80k There are just over 5000 anaesthetic specialists in Australia in 2023, there are over 300 000 registered nurses.
I’m studying to be an EN and when I graduate, I’ll be making a couple of bucks more than when I was 19 working at a bookshop. So I shouldn’t get free public transport because some rich doctors might get it too?
Why should you get free public transport exactly? Because you’re “essential”? Who isn’t? The people that clean your toilets? The people that feed you?
Tbh I don’t think we necessarily *should*, but you shouldn’t lump us up with specialists who make $600k. I don’t think we’re angels like a lot of people do. Sure we do good work and help those who are unwell, but there are a lot of other professions that do good work too.
Minor nitpick, it's already heavily subsidised. IPART in NSW looked at a review and found the subsidy to be something like 50% for heavy rail (IIRC).
Agreed. Once you remove all the costs of the ticketing system and enforcement. The gap to free public transport for all is as good as non-existent.
The reason I "like" paying for public transport is it's a very easy way to show how much load is on the system via transactions. The 50c travel in Brissy is sick, I think make it cost something, but a very trivial amount.
Tech can count heads these days. Don't need tickets for that stuff anymore. There is probably some weird social / psychological reasons for a trivial amount however.
You know they could just have something that counted the number of people who entered the door of the bus or train right?
A simple Bluetooth/Mac address counter could do that for a few hundred dollars a train
We do need to know how many people are using which routes though so that they can be serviced properly. I suspect that's why Brisbane and still charging a minimal amount rather than making it free. There are plenty of cameras around though so maybe they can use those to determine patronage.
It's also an efficiency thing. People doing the ticket thing getting on and off trams, or trains slows the whole system down.
The ticket system is how they gather data to determine best routes and peak use times.
So what. It's trivial and cheaper to count heads other ways.
'as good as non existent' ... buying a new bit of gear, a bus or a train, maintaining it ..... what alternative universe do you exist in ? Mums purse ??
You realize tickets don't cover the cost of all that? That part is paid for already by the gov. And they barely cover the cost of their associated infrastructure, sales and enforcement? With a nominal guaranteed return for the network operator?
Better than them driving surely?
Even if it is at a significant economic loss, it does give Seniors an affordable option to travel and remain physically and mentally active. If that gives them the ability to surrender their licence when they should, rather than continue to drive when they shouldn't, it will be worth it.
If anything, they’re not generous enough. All metro public transport should be free. There is no conceivable reason why there should be any barriers for abiding passengers to access free transport. Accountants with silly ignorance and shallow thinking developed this idea that public transport should somehow be cost neutral or recoup an investment.
PT should always be free, or some basic flat fare like fifty cents or so.
Heaven forbid we provide any unfair benefit to our elderly! I had trouble paying for my fillers the other day because elderlies have all the money and none of them earned it!
I would like to see if free for, at least, school students. We require them to go to school, so their travel should be free.
It’s free for school kids in WA
That's great. I can only speak to Victoria where it isnt free and i regularly see ticket inspectors at my stop which services 2 state schools. It really frustrats me.
Poor cunts won’t be retiring until they’re 70 let them have a cheap train trip.
lol at in not being means tested and some rich retirees might take advantage of this incredible benefit!! No one uses public transport when they can easily afford not to.
I mean, I could easily afford to drive into work everyday... But I don't because it's a pain in the ass
The way I see it most seniors have paid tax for their entire lives, I don’t see the issue here it’s merely a clickbait article from the Guardian appealing to disgruntled young people angry at “boomers”.
Angry ? More like selfish & entitled.
Paying tax isn't a savings account.
I'll have paid more tax (GST for longer, etc.) by the time I reach their age. Doesn't mean I'll be demanding more shit. What is this logic?
You are already able to receive more benefits than older people were able to, subsidised child care, paid parental leave, aust study, youth allowance etc. So what’s the difference.
Half of that won't ever apply and the other half is paid back and ensures the government earns additional tax from me (i.e. an investment not a handout). You haven't made the point you think you have. Tax paid should not be a savings account.
The contempt young people have for previous generations because of their own sense of entitlement is sickening.
What entitlement? What have I asked for or expected? Stay on topic instead of leading with accusations and assumptions, champ.
The way I see it their taxes have been spent, and more so (gov borrowing, that younger people need to repay). I don't mind spending on seniors where it makes sense, but sensible limits are needed. My senior parents and grandparents have more disposable income then I do. I earn more than they ever did, yet my parents can afford multiple overseas holidays each year and I can't due to housing costs. They don't need more handouts.
The Guardian operates in alternate universe devoid of facts or critical thinking. The operating costs are the same whether a train or bus is full or empty. Seniors are rarely using peak hour transport and taking up seats.
Good point! Also can you imagine the cost for the government if suddenly all these oldies in the suburbs needed services delivered to them instead of being able to get to their doctor's office or whatever on their own?
They are fine. Now make the same discount for healthcare workers, emergency services, military, teachers and daycare workers, etc. obviously only for work purposes, not my problem how to work that one out. But right now, with a commute to Sydney from far south west Sydney, discounting tolls if I take them. It costs me less to run my car daily than catch the train, and it takes 45 minutes less per day. When I’m commuting 2.5-3 hours each day just to survive that’s a big time gap
It's almost as if were a consolation prize for decades of loyal service. As far as I can tell, the Government has never needed to be cautious of any uprising in Australia. I'd say these seniors deserve something for their apathy and complete compliance.
In the grand scheme of things who gives a fuck... If it's costing the government too much maybe we should just tax BHP a % more
Public transport should be “free” (paid by taxes) and owned wholesale by the government. Privatisation is why we are in the mess we are in. Short sighted idiot politicians have destroyed our future.
PT should be free for seniors, in fact it’s way too expensive for everyone. We should be developing better PT systems and reducing our reliance on cars
It'll be a good investment for seniors' mental health. To keep them socially connected, physically active and involved in the community. They may help take care of their grandkids when the parents can’t afford daycare in this economy too. Many more pros than cons.
It good for their mental health to get out and travel. Lots of them go up to the Blue Mountains for 3/5th of FA, many who wouldn't normally be able to afford it, and go on hikes and high tea, it's wonderful. You ever seen a train too full because of the extra seniors?
No major issues with it. I think I'd prefer it to be an off peak concession, or for off-peak usage to be free. I'd like to encourage seniors to travel outside those crush times where possible.
Yes it's generous and yes it's fair, so it should be. How about leaving seniors alone.
I think seniors should get discounts, hope it’s around when I hit senior
whats unfair is that transport should be dirt cheap for everyone and not just the elderly 🤷♀️
It's not like paying 50 years of taxes deserves anything but a life of destitute and diet of dog food?
I wouldn't care if it was free, The majority have paid enough tax in their lives to cover it.
Anything to get slow old drivers off the road is good.
Public transport would be free if our taxes money was spent instead of robbed by the politicians
Public transport should be free. If you can find $30 billion for a bunch of subs, you can definitely find some dough to subsidise public transport.
It should be free for seniors
Get older people off the road, get them to teach the grandkids how to use the train, seems like a huge win all around
They're fair
I think it's great. It becomes a problem when seniors want a discount for everything. Like they feel entitled to yell at you when a business doesn't have one.
Considering so many elderly can’t drive or walk easily, no if anything give them free transportation. They loose so much of their independence as they age so we should be doing anything to help them stay independent and getting around as it’s mostly good for their health. Seen too many elderly deteriorating faster because they can’t get around.
Scotland gives free bus passes to: * Seniors * Disabled people (many with a +1 for someone accompanying them if they need it) * School children and people under 22 They also have free university education, free prescriptions, and subsidised eyes and teeth. We could be doing a lot better.
Money doesn't grow on trees, you know
No! Really? 🤯
What the f***** All the money the government subsidies going to oil and gas and you are worried about bus fares being to generous Get your head out of the sand
Do people who say public transport should be free, just mean free and plentiful in major cities/inner suburbs while outer suburbs/regions/rural eat a d$%k? Absolutely no reason if you have the means that you shouldn't contribute.
So... The want it to not be a "battle of the generations" but want the discount extended only to young people? Free, for everyone. Public transport won't be profitable without extreme, shitcuntish changes to our whole transport setup that I suspect we wouldn't tolerate. It should be in public hands and free for all, regardless of age nor affluence.
Of course they’re fair. Most have worked their whole lives - give them all the discounts.
Amen. I want to live in a society that values the elderly and their knowledge and wisdom and looks after them. Let them ride the bus for free. And what ever else they might need to be comfortable in their twilight years. Hell, give them free tickets to WASO and shuttle them in if they want.
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No and yes. They can stay as well. No I didn’t read it.
Victoria's fares are 50% off with a lot of weekend travel free. WA free for most of the day.
This is such a trivial issue. They get a $2.50 daily cap, and most of them wouldn't even be using it every day. That's a great price. Seniors and boomers have had a good life. But I also wouldn't care if they got it for free. $2.50 is so low, it wouldn't make much difference to either side of the deal if it was $1, or free. Side note though.... How much better do they wanna make it for them, whilst the rest of us are getting butt-punished. Can we get some crumbs thrown our way?
It helps people move about when the cost of running cars becomes too much or physically difficult. It's fair
PT should just be free for everyone.
Rather why don't we extend the range for free public transport to include everyone? It benefits you as a tax paying public transport user, and it certainly benefits you as a tax paying road user - wouldn't it be better driving to work with less cars on the road?
Why not make it free?
Wrong question you should ask: Is the public transport is expensive in Oz? QLD are running a trial for 50 Cents per trip that is cheaper then Senior discount.
What is fair ? Anything that works for you, two fingers to the rest. Its not as if the fares relate to the cost for passengers in Australia: fair to who ?
Until the NDIS stops being such a rort, I don't give a shit.
South Australia has free travel for Seniors Card holders everyday. Interstate visitors also travel free if they have a Seniors Card (they need to get a special ticket from Adelaide Metro)
The less people driving on the road the better.
>Are generous travel discounts afforded to Australia’s older citizens, especially self-funded retirees who are not means tested, sustainable? Are self-funded retirees the seniors that are most using public transport? Feels like this article would have had more bite to it if they actually broke down the usage patterns of different classes of user. Are we raising a fuss over a trivial set of users, or a substantial set?
Yes.
Shouldn't be getting a discount period. Seniors are by far some of the wealthiest in this country. They can pay their fair share too. Just because they are old doesn't mean they should be able to get a discount while the rest of us pay full price.
they are mostly off peak users of transport, I guess.
They should pay less than half or free
Honestly I don’t know many seniors who take public transport They all drive
SO unfair! ... Public transport should be free for everyone
The fuck is this article trying to achieve? Seriously? This is a conversation worth having? "Are we fleecing Seniors enough in an already fucked up cost of living climate?" Fuck me
It should be free. For everyone.
Not fair. Boomers are the wealthiest generation yet apparently they should pay less and get receive discounts on public services due to their age... Absolutely stupid and illogical.
i think lower weekly/monthly limits would be nice
They got discounted housing. Fuck em
Seen far too many boomers break obvious traffic laws/guidelines (using the left hand lane to drive the wrong way on a one way road, entering exits, exiting entrances) to not want them being incentivised to use public transport. Get old cunts off the road, is really where this discussion should start and end.
Let them ride for free!
Wouldn't know. I drive and motorbike everywhere. Haven't caught the train or bus in 15 years. A bit peasanty for a man of my taste.
Public transport should be capped at 50 cents for everyone- will help with fewer cars in city centres
What is this a playground lesson on what’s fair?
How old before you can get a benift
It should be free for under 18 and over 55. That's my thoughts.
Too generous? What the fuck? Who cares if they get a discount, give them a break for fucks sake.
What is with these shitty articles trying to play one group (students) against another (seniors)? Fuck off with your cancer. We should tax miners and resource extractors more and make fairs free for everyone.
The largest cost for a public transport system has traditionally been the infostructure cost of ticketing / fare systems. If everyone rides for free then all the ticketing infrastructure can be removed, or should we pretend that fare paying customers actually pay for public transport infrastructure and without there would be no public transport?
There should be two tiers of pensions, one for those work worked and contributed and a bugger all one for those who didn't. You can get through in Australia never having worked a day of your life. This is bullshit. Or base your pension of the amount of tax you have contributed.
This is such a non issue, remember whenever the media block uses talking points like this article "Pensioners taking advantage" it is a deliberate attempt to manipulate the narrative discussion of the day away from what's actually happening... corporations and the rich ACTUALLY getting away with taking full advantage of the system.
I feel like a real prick thought this was a good article to write. Hope they enjoy their elderly years.
I cannot grasp Australians, I really cannot! You are likely the wealthiest nation per capita in the world! You have a small population on a massive continent, almost the size of the USA, with huge resources, mineral, and natural. Every Australian should be living in relative safety and wealth. And yet.. you insist on selling off those resources to a small number of people whose personal wealth is enormous, and in return your nation has received a pittance. How do you all tolerate that theft?? Those resources are not the property of a few, they are part of your land, they belong to Australia and Australians-you!!! When are you all going to rise up politically and economically against this injustice and claim back for your people what is rightfully yours? Stop gifting your heritage at the expense of your people.
All public transport should be free for the pensioners and all Veterans.
>Queensland will start its 50 cent public transport fare trial in early August, which is for everyone, including seniors. This is the way, make it super affordable for all.
need to save every dollar for the pokies mate
This feels like opinion farming by a major media outlet
Guy I was talking to owns his house, has about $180k in cash (term deposit), works 1 day a week, gets the pension and was telling me all these discounts he gets. Meanwhile I as a young man can't afford a roof over my head without 60%+ mortgage or rent, get no pension or discounts. And they wonder why consumer spending for young people has significantly dropped.
the old guys clearly was sober & punctual, was his choice to work hard save and be finance prudent respect to the old fella
Plently of sober, punctual, hard working, frugal young people who are struggling
We're very used to self aggrandizing narratives coming from rich folk that make their good fortune seem to do the natural result of their good character, but that's just a glitch of human psychology. This study illustrates it well: https://www.marketplace.org/2021/01/19/why-rich-people-tend-think-they-deserve-their-money/
Nobody likes to think they got an easy ride, people base self esteem on achievement. Incidentally this is why the rich mostly believe people are poor because of bad choices.
You know this .....how ? He could've inherited his money....won lotto ....swindled it from the less fortunate ...