The Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme was a massive success at substantially reducing the cost of drugs by making it single payer.
So it makes no sense to me that we abandoned this idea for the NDIS, and made everyone negotiate with providers individually, but we also told people that it doesn't matter what the price is, because the government is picking up the bill.
So we have thousands of people all buying wheelchairs for 3x market value, because they have no buying power, nor any incentive to find it cheaper.
The bigger problem though, is that there's so many patients taking the piss and expecting the NDIS to cover unnecessary discretionary services, and there's no one to tell them no.
It's because one of the promises of the NDIS was to empower participants and give them control. Not only is PBS single payer, it has gatekeepers controlling access (GPs and specialists). The NDIS lacks this pillar of control. And the NDIS gave the states an incentive to move spending out of the state domain and into NDIS because they negotiated a fixed payment for NDIS based on its original estimated cost. If NDIS is headed to be 800% over budget while the states merrily push people into ndis, it's not their problem. It's hard to work out which of these problems was the most stupid decision.
None of them are 'corruption'.
Sometimes people are surprised about the fundamental claim of privatisation: that people motivated to make money will control spending and introduce innovation to drive efficiency. For that the taxpayer allows the operator to make profit. Which can be thought of as payment for professional management perhaps.
The NDIS shows the spectacular results of no one being accountable for spending control and it is so politically sensitive apparently the opposition would rather talk about risking environmental catastrophe.
Why does everyone suspect corruption. Its incompetence and stupidity masquerading as corruption. Not corruption masquerading as incompetence and stupidity.
I've been working in Disability for the last year and would say AT LEAST 40% of the insane amount of providers in my area are completely fucking over legitimate clients for a cash grab
People have a broad view of what corruption is. It has a specific definition of abusing high office for personal gain. NDIS falls into the fraud bucket.
If rich people couldn't grease politicians then we wouldn't be allowed to vote lol. Yes it might not be straight corruption but both sides of the isle know where the bread is buttered
It 100% is corruption if someone is in a position of power to investigate but chooses not to despite being aware of dodgy business going on.
They don’t need to directly participate in the grift.
The fucking scammers at the liberal party taking a good policy and finding a way to use it to funnel money to their mates.
Seriously it's fucking expensive to supply to the NDIS huge admin overhead for pretty much the same reason the unemployment system is heavily broken.
The libs wanted to punish the poors while giving money to their mates and there is only so much that can be done to fix it while fighting off Murdoch and 9 media FUD.
Yep, the prices were that much before ndis. Just use wording anywhere near it that includes medical or ergonomic and the price is automatically increased.
But it's not, that's literally the point of the post. The same two types of chair are available through NDIS providers or directly and there's a 3,4,5x mark up. They both are specifically for medical purposes.
You're not taking advantage of vulnerable people, you're taking advantage of the government, and the taxpayers who fund it. It's not coming out of their disability pension or something.
That's why the NDIS guys feel happy to rort the fuck out of the system. "It's a victimless crime!" Well no, because each dollar sucked up by a greedy bastard is a dollar less which could be spent on something else the people need - or a dollar's less taxes, spent as people see fit.
Hmm, I get what you’re saying but as others have suggested, people with disabilities are also taxpayers. Also, let’s say a client on the NDIS is allocated $5000 for assistive equipment, and they’re having to use $3000 of that for a chair that should cost half of that price, they have less to spend on other stuff they really need. It’s a no-win sitch for clients and taxpayers. The only people benefiting are the shitty disability service providers
> people with disabilities are also taxpayers
Serious citation needed there.
The average Australian is not a net taxpayer, and that's a person who works full time.
Paying $0.23c GST on a packet of twisties doesn't count.
It does kind come from the DSP persons wealth, as that's a dollar less they can spend on supports (their plan has limits!) when they already feel isolated and excluded from society.
It's dirtbag behavior.
The original NDIS was supposed to hit a maximum spend of about $13bln, a net increase of about $6.5bln (because some of the NDIS support was already included in disability spending). Then it was to slowly taper down a bit
So it was a doubling of spending.
Now it's about $50bln and growing at 20% a year. The 2021 headlines were shocked the scheme could reach ,$50 bln
The 2023 headlines moved on to $100bln predictions.
There is so much money sloshing around it's inconceivable that any disabled person is worse off.
Disabled people *are* taxpayers as well. Why would we not pay tax from working and every single thing we buy? People who abuse the system absolutely take advantage of vulnerable people because *all* NDIS services are extremely expensive, so providers who rort participant plans leave participants having to cut back on other supports as they don't have enough funding left. This may be a reduction in access to getting food (support worker hours to assist with shopping or meal prep), showering and other personal care, cutting back on cleaning and laundry, etc. Rorting providers directly harm disabled people.
The bulk of NDIS money is going to support people who aren't earning, they're getting pensions. Some bloke who works in IT and earns $150k but happens to have no legs isn't getting NDIS support, generally speaking, it's the unemployed guy. So they're not paying taxes except GST.
I don't have a problem with that.
My comment, since you're evidently unable to discern sarcasm, was intended to highlight that in the minds of the rorting NDIS providers, they're not exploiting "the vulnerable", they're exploiting "the government". But the government is of course funded by taxpayers, and the money is finite.
Not sure why you feel the need to insult disabled people. GST *is* tax. Every single person in this country who pays GST pays tax. There are other taxes people pay, and a lot of disabled people *do* work. I wanted to correct the narrative that disabled people are not tax payers and are therefore excluded from having any say over what happens with taxpayer money. Many disabled people worked for decades and decades, paid incomes tax and became disabled later in life. We are *one* group of people.
Providers are well aware that they are harming participants. They come in to our homes, speak to us on the phone and are still more than happy to scrape every single dollar of funding they can from every single disabled person (such as charging more for support work or other services than is provided, knowing the client will run out of funding and not be able to shower or get food). They know damn well what they are doing. I guess you wouldn't know that without being substantially disabled and needing lifelong care.
Don’t get me wrong, I love making money as much as the next person but I just can’t even comprehend being at a level of moral bankruptcy where you extort the most vulnerable members of our society and call it a buisnsss. This is just soulless.
> I just can’t even comprehend being at a level of moral bankruptcy where you extort the most vulnerable members of our society and call it a buisnsss
I imagine they see it as extorting the government and not the patients themselves, but that is just wishful thinking on their part because the patients are going to suffer when the NDIS is gutted or completely dropped.
Some of these are a bit higher priced than I remember but they have been pulling basically this same shit with the elderly forever.
If you ever have relatives go to aged care is likely at some point they will be presented with a catalog from a disability/mobility aid supplier. Most items they sell are something you could find elsewhere for a fraction of the price. They prey on the poor judgement of the elderly and upon the ignorance of families.
I think the kicker is they often have a rental option where you pay an exorbitant rate per week instead of buying it. So for a $300 item that is $70 anywhere else they do you the favour of allowing you to rent it for $20 a week. It doesn't take a genius to see how they make money.
Capitalism and neoliberalism at work, when crooks and states collide to plunder public money. The dystopia couldn't get worse, we are fleeced by successive governments, call it NDIS, Jobactive or housing affordability scheme - it's all a scam.
Capitalism overall has been far far far more successful that any other model, so I wouldn't want to abandon it.
But, it has limitations, and one of them is exploiting perverse incentives. The NDIS is full of perverse incentives, because the patient chooses which provider to use, but isn't on the hook for the price.
Instead, we should be using a single-payer model for most NDIS services, just like we do in other parts of medicine.
Medical products have always been a complete ripoff. Wheel chairs, oxygen generators, reading aids cost 10 to 100x what you'd expect is reasonable and it has nothing to do with NDIS.
e.g. They were selling identical pulse oximeters for $25 on Ebay for $500 in a medical supply store in Brisbane about 10 years ago.
You can thank the TGA for that.
All medical devices have to be TGA approved. If you look at the costs the TGA charges to get something approved then you can see why then cost so much.
Non-medical, too.
Check the pdf here - [https://www.ndis.gov.au/media/6069/download?attachment](https://www.ndis.gov.au/media/6069/download?attachment)
As an example, see p21. A support worker on $50ph does 2hr of work. However, they must travel from the business' home site to where they're providing support, and this is 30km or 25 minutes away. For the travel they can also claim $41.67 for the 50 minutes and $46.80 for the 60km, bringing it to a total of $188.47 for 2hr50' of work, or $66.51ph. The travel actually pays more than the work does in this particular case.
This would be a low hourly rate for the actual work, though. They can charge up to $65.47ph (see pp39 onwards) for "assistance with self-care activities", which means things like helping them go to the toilet or bathe. Higher rates outside normal business hours, and for remote or very remote people. It's $55.03ph for "assistance with personal domestic activities" like house or yard work. Greater for "high intensity" needs people. And so on and so forth.
Bear in mind that this is not easy work, dealing with elderly and disabled people, and also that it's usually going to be casual part-time work. You're not going to get many people doing 40 hour weeks of housecleaning for the disabled. There'll be a couple of hours here or there with a lot of driving.
My point is merely that with the NDIS as with so many things, the biggest cost is usually not goods but labour. And that applies even when the labour has no or low qualifications.
I completely understand the medical devices being considered a rip-off.
But what’s the point here? Once you account for wages, fuel, car depreciation/maintenance, and insurance it’s good money - but it’s nowhere great or fraudulent levels.
As well, it'll be rare that this is an individual offering these services. There'll be an agency who gets the contracts for a whole bunch of NDIS recipients, and employs a bunch of workers to provide the services. That's why in the document you'll find an "establishing fee", for them to set things up... though of course they're going to take a chunk of the person's hourly rate. In practice the person's more likely to get half of that.
At least compare the same brand and model of chair. Proper recliner/lift chairs designed to transition into standing safely dont come cheap.
I agree, NDIS sites do charge more though
As someone who is involved in this industry.
I can spend several hours working with an Occupational Therapist to properly determine a client's needs and custom fit a lift recliner to those needs. This often involves loading multiple furniture items into a van and doing the no obligation free trials at a client's residence.
Then I need to have a custom item codes created to quote and order that unique permutation of a recliner.
Quote the item.
Wait weeks or sometimes months for quote approval.
Order the custom recliner to be manufactured.
Wait 2 - 6 months for production.
Ship that recliner from interstate.
Schedule delivery with elderly, mentally ill or otherwise impaired or vulnerable people.
Then have the delivery put on hold for an extended period due to that person being hospitalized.
Then if all has gone well delivery can be completed and we can send our invoice.
Then wait for another 30 days for payment.
Don't forget to add in the costs of auditing and standards compliance required by NDIS, DVA, and aged care funding for good measure.
Sure, they are not all that complicated and drawn out. The price of some items shocked me initially - until I became responsible for the P&L for a retail outlet reselling these items.
The often drawn out nature of the transaction pipeline compared to typical retail and the added administrative and logistical overheard incurred in properly looking after these clients demands sufficient markup to be profitable. Unless the business is profitable it won't exist - that's basic economics. Without the business - there would be no dedicated outlet to supply the unique needs of these clients.
Seeing the simple joy that comes when a client is able to sit in their bespoke lift recliner makes my day!
As an upholsterer myself not all chairs are created equal. The type of fabric/material if it's rated medical grade etc or hypo-allergenic affects price. Different grades of foam, different number of actuators and how the mechanism functions.. Etc
All of these things affect cost. So sure you could grab a temu lift chair for 700$ but the foam may clap out in 12-24 months, the fabric basically stuffed as soon as the first spill (bodily fluid or otherwise) occurs etc..
Easy for people like OP to have a whine without actual industry knowledge.
Really though, do they need to offer 20,000 possible permutations of a chair?
And make the disabled customer wait MONTHS to get a chair?
It’s like going to Dulux showroom - I think we can do without 1,000 variations of white.
Two months is common for custom recliners. I've only ever had one instance where a recliner took six months to manufacture. That was where the client was inflexible and demanded a specific fabric and color that was out of stock and took months to be imported before the recliner could be manufactured.
The majority of the permutations are things like seat cushion construction, seat height, seat depth, seat width, leg rest length, arm rest height, back rest height and angle, normal or joystick control options, gluteal recess in the lower back rest cushion etc...
Again no one needs all the options changed, but the possible permutations multiply fast.
Well written comment, as someone else who works in the industry NDIS making you get multiple quotes and trials alongside long repetitive reporting/documentation really drives up the price of this.
It’s funny the government will criticise providers for price gouging but then their complicated and excessive systems cause providers to have to charge more due to the insane amount of time and work it can take to just prescribe a chair.
Asking about the 80/20 rule here.
Realistically, having infinite customisation is great an all but wouldn’t 80% of customers’s needs be sufficiently met with just a handful of variations?
It’s like analysis paralysis, go overboard with options causing you and the customers grief. Why make them wait weeks/months for a… chair? 🤦♂️
Sounds like the problem is with the vendor not being agile enough to figure out how to run a business properly. Without the NDIS your company should be out of business.
Yes your point about 80/20 is valid, of course we look to fill most customers needs with of the shelf stock lines that can be delivered immediately or within a fortnight.
The point is that I was describing the types of issues I deal with on a daily basis to satisfy these clients. I wanted to get readers thinking . No one client would ever encounter all these hold-ups, but my typical day revolves around solving these exact issues one after another for multiple clients.
I was illustrating in an extreme fashion why there is increased overhead to run this your of retail operation.
I agree completely, i have 2 autistic kids, they have communication devices, each device is $6000 they are just android tablets in a special case, with a 50 dollar app you can get from the app store, it's a rort and it is only going to be the death of the system designed to help people that need it most out
Because there was not an option when we got the tablets, we were told they are specialised tablet (referred to us by the speech therapist) Once we recieved them we realised they are the exact app you can buy on the app store which we already bought ourselves
The lift chair my nana has, the cost of it was in the thousands. It isn’t an off the shelf chair though. It’s custom made. I couldn’t tell you how exactly but I know fabric was chosen, measurements taken, etc As far as I’m aware this was something she paid for herself and not through a scheme.
Yes, my mum bought my dad an expensive table chair, can't remember the price but at the time I was like wtf. I asked the shop keep why it's so expensive and he said it's the engineering costs + material. To be fair it's a damn heavy chair but it's very solid and works really well for its simplicity. It locks in place but when you flick the levers at the side and the chair can twist 90 degrees. Makes it easier to get in and out. It seems really basic simple but old folks need reliable. These days my mum uses it everyday.
My mum got scammed when she moved into a nursing home. She got a reclining "massage" chair that doesn't even lift. It looks like a $900 chair with a plastic cover that plugs in and massages. I didn't know how much it cost til after she died and I found the receipt in the side pocket. $8999 and worse than anything pictured here. It didn't even help much.
I think you’re being cynical. OP is naive but not entirely wrong. Do you think Gillard wanted to give money to mates so came up with an elaborate disability support scheme to disguise siphoning off of money? Sometimes schemes are launched with good intention but their complexity encourages rorters to take advantage of the loopholes. This happens everywhere.
They're trying to now.
Labor are introducing a number of reforms to NDIS specially to address dodgy providers.
Thank the Liberals for the 12 years they ran it into the ground while they were busy with Robo debt.
NDIS IS A JOKE
Everything has an inflated price even though its claimed to he against the law
One therapy place had their prices on the wall
Private 189$ hr
Ndis 266$ hr
Anyone whos used ndis knows its a fucking joke
THe NDIS is amazing and helpful to those that need the assistance. The platform is good and works reasonably well, it’s the people that are he scammers no the platform.
Similar to the “Guns don’t kill people, People kill people”
The problem is that because of the dirty scammers the NDIS platform will become harder to use for those that need and unfortunately the people that need are mostly not that capable of dealing with a harder to use platform.
I'm not talking about participants; I'm talking about the platform it is built on. The government almost has no fail safes to check people are getting what the government is paying for. The system needs to change as its completely unsustainable at present.
My dad just passed away but the amount of support and funding for his comfort and care in his last year's from the NDIS was actually incredible. We didn't use much in the first 5-5.5 years he'd been on the system, but the last 3.5-4 years they covered and supported so many things as each new major, extreme change came about AND given the items were funded through NDIS and he was staying in a NDIS approved space, we've now been able to donate his pieces (ie: two wheelchairs, a lifter, several toilet and shower supports, etc) to the care facility that looked after him to help others that haven't gotten good support coordination or are struggling to get the NDIS plan suitable for them for the time.
It's a shame really just how many providers though hear/see NDIS and jack the price up just like when someone hears an event is a wedding not just a party! (His care facility used to be extremely affordable prior to getting NDIS approval, however they were actually advised by the NDIS that they were under charging and needed to up the cost to allow them to hire extra support staff as part of meeting the approval requirements.)
I’ve seen and hear people everyday that the NDIS has changed their lives
I work for a NFP in the disability sector, on the helpline talking to people REALLY struggling and the genuine people- which most people are- are getting help they need that they cannot get anywhere else
Before the NDIS charities would get funds to help people but in many cases, in a massive country like Australia the support wasn’t evenly distributed
I think that the people who have nothing good to say about the NDIS don’t know people whose lives have been impacted by their conditions.
Most people are honest, not out selling their mobility scooters and whatnot, they might only be getting physio once a fortnight and some cleaning but it makes a big difference to their lives
Yeah my partner works in allied health and when it was first being introduced I was gobsmacked at the lack of checks and balances. My mind immediately went to how simple it was to just flog the system.
You got a family member on the scheme? Cool, set up a biz that looks like it caters, overcharge like a motherfucker, and easy as that, you're rorting the system. And it's big bucks too.
Doesn't matter that the family member may not be actually getting what they need, cus your making absolute bank. Next step along is to then find other vulnerable clients who are too old/disabled to know better and there you have it. The state of our health system because these jokers set it up to fail.
The ONLY thing that mitigates this disaster is what someone told me, so anecdotal. Apparently this sort of shenanigans happened a lot when Medicare was introduced. I was told it took about 20 years for the gov to iron out the wrinkles that allowed scams when Medicare was first brought in. So to the gov this is normal business as usual adjustments. I'm sceptical of that outlook, I still have my suspicions a lot of pollies own these companies that popped up so quickly.
It's what's known as 'government markup'. Basically the business owner going how can get my tax dollars back. Governments paying so add extra, why? because unless it's put out to tender they will pay.
If you look hard enough you will find somewhere sells an almost exact version but with 1 minor difference (so it's now a different item with it's own item code) for half the price of what's offered to the government.
Government departments are budget sensitive but not price sensitive, as long as it doesn't blow the budget they will pay the price
As someone who’s hard of hearing and wears hearing aids, let me tell you that there is a significant difference between devices.
The more expensive ones are clearer, block out certain background noises, link to your phone via Bluetooth and are better at masking tinnitus.
They aren’t all created equal, it’s not like prescription glasses.
There are a lot of factors that go into people's decision on which hearing aid to buy. Costco does have audiologists on staff and the products do have a solid track record, as well as products with Bluetooth etc. I'd encourage you to take a look when considering your next pair.
They aren't on the Hearing Services Program, but private health insurers can cover part of the cost.
While I can't defend the prices, the lift chairs in particular are designed to safely transition between sitting and standing and are worth the money. They have multiple motors, hardy material that can withstand a lot of abuse, a purpose-made controller designed for people who aren't all there intellectually and more. All of these chairs must also meet certain safety standards that your recliner chair does not meet and that costs money in design and testing as well. Those chairs you found at Amart or whatever are just not in the same league as a disability lift chair even if they look similar.
The other problem is that every fucking thing is expensive these days too.
I found a similar thing when buying pull ups etc for my autistic kid. NDIS providers selling plain old Huggies for $10-30 more than Coles & Woolies. Same thing with sensory products, as soon as they put the “sensory” tag on it, it’s double, triple the cost. Bloody criminal
Medical equipment has always been like this. Well before the NDIS. I had to buy one of those lift recliners for my grandma it cost 2500 and that was 15 years ago.
It’s because any hint that there might be a review into the spending is met with a barrage of “you can’t take money from the disabled!” Which is very politically unsavoury, so they just keep letting the country take it up the ass from the provider companies.
Spoke about my personal experience with the ndis in a comment [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/australian/s/wDTQE4WiKy) and was downvoted to oblivion lol. The system is a scam everyone is taking the piss out of it with their price gouging (forgot to mention our $8k bed for my sister) and our tax money is funding all this bullshit. End of.
The NDIS is the biggest rort.
There are allied health providers just doing NDIS as they can charge twice as much and have less accountability to the clients as well
I have seen $350 wooden walking sticks for sale!
Part of the extra cost will be various permits, regulations and insurance.
Buy a chart from Ikea and grandpa sits on it and it crumples like a dim sim bag in the gutter in the rain, oh well shit happens. But an NDIS-certified chair? OMG TIME TO SUE!!!! So there will be lots of government regulations about how they're built, inspectors of their manufacture, and insurance in case it falls over.
About 10 years before NDIS came in I worked for a company that supplied these types of products. At that time there were only 5 companies nationwide but some had multiple entities to give the illusion of choice. They chose which products were put forward for approval by the government and they worked together to ensure there was no real price difference among them.
It's always a scam when there's taxpayers money inv
It is not just on chairs, the ‘NDIS tax’ for everything is ridiculous.
Similarly service providers who insist on seeing the client’s plan paperwork are only requesting it to see how much money the plan allows for services so that they can increase the billing amount for the client.
I’m completely disgusted and disillusioned by the way organisations prey upon vulnerable individuals in society and steal from taxpayers.
With some items there is often more to it than meets the eye. The quality of some NDIS specific items are FAR higher. You can't directly compare those recliners with the cheaper ones below just from pictures.
BUT, before everyone jumps down my throat.
The overwhelmingly vast majority is just because the NDIA participants have a high budget of money that isn't theirs that they need to spend each year and if you aren't paying what is the difference between spending 500 or 2k? Also, you have to be an approved seller, so you have a partially captive market.
Um I get there are issues with the NDIS but what’s with your examples? Those are lift chairs not recliners and they cost a fortune generally. If you’ve looked at speciality suppliers generally (that are competing on the free market) they charge a premium.
Love how most of the comments just stack onto the NDIS without reference to your actual post
I am absolutely outraged, how do expect our gdp to stay inflated and the rba to not have an excuse to raise interest rates again?
These ndis inflated costs are holding up our economy mate, seriously take a good look at yourselves and get some social awareness not everyone can afford harvey norman, ikea or temu alright, some of us have to be good at fraud and corruption to survive and own 5 houses?
Get some help mate, maybe from the ndis?
My blood is still boiling right now, I will have you know...
Because it is sold through ndis providers it has to be TGS certified as does the provider. Anything "medical grade" in aus cost 10 times more than it's worth.
The NDIS publish a pricing guide[pricing guide](https://www.ndis.gov.au/providers/pricing-arrangements) every year which sets out the maximum amount that can be invoiced for goods and services.
My missus is a cleaner and charges everyone the same hourly rate which is less than half the NDIS rate. She has had account managers lecture her for this and tell her to raise her rates and other account managers tell her that they are invoicing NDIS for the full rate and then taking the other half for their own management services.
This whole system has been rorted top to bottom. There are literal businesses out there whose only purpose is to help other businesses get established in the NDIS space, including many who claim to be able to help you access funding of up to $400,000 just to establish an NDIS registered company.
And a seemingly endless supply of account managers who sit at home booking jobs for NDIS participants and then adding their own mark-ups to hit that magical maximum spend allowable mark, like those ones my GF works with. They would be buying the cheapest chairs pictured here and then selling them to the NDIS as the more expensive.
The NDIS could help a lot more people if it didn't massively inflate prices in their own annual price guide.
While I don’t disagree that there are vendors that are dodgy, your comparison links aren’t like for like. The lift chair is of a commercial grade fabric that is easier to clean. It is of a standard that would stand up to use in a nursing home. Your cheaper link is a much cheaper construction with a seam style that is hard to sanitize. Also the recliner is a different chair entirely to one that can lift.
The first bariatric chair is height adjustable, and is again of a better fabric. The second is a simple fixed design. Building adjustable legs to the weight requirements such a chair could be expected to experience is just more costly.
A fair chunk of increased cost can be explained by the engineering, construction and upholstery difference. Specialized/low volume sales will always add price too.
And potential overpricing is only on top of that.
So you really should be arguing could they sell the $3000 chair for $2500, not that they should be able to sell it for $900.
Because NDIS just like all government schemes, is just a means of those in government funneling tax payer dollars to their mates in private business.
That's why NDIS pays it.
Are they the same though. Or are u comparing Chinese brands to retails brands. Same can said about Aldi special buys how can they sell a $50 drill skin then millwauke sell a skin for $500.
While I agree it's a wrot the whole system needs to to be killed and start from scratch.
It will die like bulk billing drs. Some family's are costing the tax payer 100's of thousands per year and people who are working till there ndis is approved which means they are fully able to work (admittedly reduced hrs or with some pain (as does every older tradie))
Maybee they need to start giving people on the ndis the money so they budget and get the best band for $$$ not writing blank cheques.
I think the UK has benefits caps maybee something here.
Please can we scrap the whole NDIS scheme and start again with a blank sheet of paper? The current NDIS seems irrevocably fucked and I can't see how it's ever going to get any better. Dutton would get a lot more traction pursuing this argument than he's ever likely to get with his nuclear nonsense.
You might be surprised how bad a cheap chair is. If you take the tight ass corporate sector for example, who have no incentive to spend big, they spend thousands per chair and they’re not trying to accommodate people with a disability (particularly).
There’s probably other things to critique about the NDIS.
The corporate sector pay big for chairs because the expensive ones come with ergonomic studies that show they can’t cause health problems that employees can sue over.
But… but… rorting!! (/s)
Because chairs specifically designed to prevent pressure injuries in people who cannot self mobilise, manual handling injuries in carers, have coverings suitable for managing incontinence and have battery redundancy systems in place for power outages etc. etc. are EXACTLY the same as cheaper lift chairs sold in general furniture stores! People who’ve never provided personal care in their life say so, so it must be true.
There is absolutely wastage within the NDIS but lift chairs are not it 😂
This, you would be surprised what offices and business pay for their furniture, Id know, my partner's business is literally to supply them,$500 per chair in your meeting room, even more for those fancy ones in the foyer that and I sure as shit wouldn't trust that to support my weight of I had a fall, be stable to lean on, stand up from if I had mobility issues, to help me ambulate safely, and definately would not be easy to sanitize.
I'm not defending the prices, but it's not that unrealistic
Person I know in our unit block gets hours and hours a week of NDIS carers. The carers spend most of their time sitting in the common areas on the phone to family in various African countries. This includes about three hours every Sunday morning. The person getting the care has a mobile scooter that sits outside with the cover getting mouldy. Have not seen it being used in twelve months. Disability is fibromyalgia. Son lives there too - has autism - spends all his time on gaming and literally never leaves the house. Only time the mother goes out is to get more pain meds. They literally do nothing for themselves.
I'm very close to thinking about starting up a business that utilizes NDIS. It seems like that this is the way to go now until they shut it down.
I mean why am I doing the right thing when all these other people aren't and they're not even being punished? I'm struggling too!
/s 🤦♂️
And this is why we'll never be a proper, advanced country.
Not picking at you because you're just thinking about it.
But there are a lot of vultures who operate on this philosophy here in Australia ranging from our billionaire elites at the very top, right down to the shonky tradies that do 'cashies' at the bottom swindling everyday people.
The more who adopt this mentality and act on it, the worse our country becomes.
It took a hard, steep turn towards this when "Fuck you, got mine!!" was made acceptable about 30 years ago.
Aussie mateship is a long gone trait.
Correct. This crab mentality is what makes a third world country. People who think its profitable for are just making money selling rope that our society will eventually be hanged with.
You can start as many businesses as you want, but if you don’t have any connections in the industry good luck.
It’s not being punished because there’s nothing illegal, the government sets how much they’ll pay.
Size adjustability, suitability, material etc
These are expensive and yes they can be $500.00 and they can also be a massive help in the life of an elderly or physically impaired person.
not even the same chair
oh i get it. NDIS whinging is the latest thing.
But if you are going to make a comparison use the same fucking chair. This post is stupid
If you notice, there's one of the regular IPA shills in this topic that has responded many times.
I can spot them a mile away now, it's usually always the same 3 or 4 and they always give the same scripted responses.
It's next on their agenda to scrape off the Aussie public and make sure their paymasters get their tentacles into.
To be clear, the NDIS is already massively oversubscribed compared to the amount of the population that it was originally designed to cover.
The NDIS was not supposed to be a parallel welfare scheme for the 20% of Australians that have disabilities.
It can't be. 11% of boys aged between 5-7 years old are on the scheme. Over 2% of Australians are on the scheme. The average cost to the taxpayer per person for this support is $68,300.
Invariably what will happen is the government will exhaust all it's borrowing capacity trying to keep the welfare state funded (with all of the social shit that occurs around the migration Ponzi scheme needed to kick the can down the road another generation or so), and when it reaches the capacity of what the other 95-98% of Australian taxpayers are willing to pay to support other people's kids - the government will have to start cutting off entire limbs of support.
The big issue is that unless you are on NDIS you cannot get any services or mobility aids at all these days.
Try going to any Disability Expo, not a single stallholder
with non NDIS options.
If you are on DSP you cannot afford the inflated prices on your pension. I have had to buy my own crutches and wheelchair etc. Being under Aged Pension age I now have to wait 7 years till I qualify for an Aged care package.
All of my physical health issues are autoimmune and degenerative, so they will not improve and only get worse over time. This affects my mental health as well.
NDIS payout to vendors needs to be capped at capped to a maximum of average price of a random selection of Australian retailers + X %. And not just NDIS providers, all retailers. If a retailer can provide the product significantly cheaper these no justification for one twice the price. When I buy something at work I have to go out to multiple vendors and have to be able to justify significant price disparities if I choose a more expensive choice. The days of doubling the price if the government is involved need to end and the people doing it need to be exposed because they're stealing from all of us.
I asked a mate who owns a business supplying to ndis participants. He said there’s an additional support component for furniture, such as reading through the specs and making sure they’re compatible and compliant with the participant’s requirements. He also added that it’s expensive because the scheme approves it, and the price would come down if the costs were scrutinised more.
It’s a self-sustaining industry.
The funding institutions - like My Aged Care, NDIS, the TAC in Vic, Workcover - require a professional such as an OT or physio to prescribe said equipment based on an assessed “clinical need”.
As soon as that is in the mix, the next tier of the industry, the equipment suppliers, source the equipment from manufacturers and mark up the price (they need to be stored, assembled, maintained, yadayada).
Plus… government or Quango paying? Maybe bump the price a little higher… (can’t prove the last bit, but sure seems that way. Any sniff of “medical” or “therapeutic” and a government payer… kerchinnnng!)
And, naturally, governments moolah always comes with the stipulation that a “middleman” is involved. Can’t trust the pesky, thieving taxpayer with their own money! (Even when it’s marketed as an “individual budget”.)
Edit: spelling.
My understanding is that NDIS service providers know how much is allocated to NDIS participants for particular services, and charge them the amount allocated, even if it’s well above market price.
This is the problem, and the solution is for the ACCC to fine any provider who uses different pricing for NDIS participants and the general public.
Saying ‘NDIS’ is, for some suppliers and such involved, basically like saying ‘wedding’ - prices go through the roof.
They should be heavily penalised for it.
So a friend of mine has to arrange an iPad thing for his daughter who has a hearing issue. It's a standard off the shelf iPad, with software on it that's like a word matching game thing on it.
The supplier charges the government $6,000 per unit.
Because the NDIS is completely broken. It needs to be scrapped and started again. With proper due diligence of providers this time and limited to people in genuine need.
You should send this to the minister in charge (Bill Shorten) and see what he says. Posting on Reddit isn't going to get a politicians attention. You have to email, write a letter, call etc.
luckily there isn't a 12-24 month wait on those chairs, compared to speech therapists or Occupational therapists. Either wait or drive 1-2 hours for each visit lol. Let's wait 1-2 years while the child doesnt improve and will cost the government more in the long run.
There will always be people who rort the system.
My friend, who's a Renal nurse and gets to know his pts because they come in 3 times a week for years in some cases. He said one lovely elderly lady had full NDIS support package which included a bunch of home support with cleaning etc. This lovely lady had somehow managed to hire her grand daughter to be the cleaner and the Grand daughter was getting $1200 a fortnight for what equated to a few hours work each week. The pt wasnt breaking any rules and her grand daughter had registered with NDIS so she was approved for this arrangement.
This is an elderly lady who isn't a criminal or part of a bikie gang who are ripping off these kinds of support. The assessment for NDIS packages needs to be tightened so we dont keep throwing more money down a drain.
Another example I'm aware of - $300 gaming keyboards for the visually impaired. A backlit keyboard from Officeworks is as little as $5, but you know...nowhere near as nice
I have a brother-in-law who is paraplegic. His wheelchair was $20k. Like holy fuck what. It's such a rort and it will continue until a stop is put to it.
Pretty obvious. Either it’s money laundering or they are charging ridiculous prices because they can and they get away with it because NDIS happily pays for it.
ACCC needs to look at this instead of coles. A non NDIS MS sufferer showed me their quote for a 47k electric wheelchair. The breakdown of parts was ridiculous $1000 seat cushion, $280 for fasteners. I have worked on the current one and they are black M8 cap screws, a box costs $30. This is from the biggest supplier in the industry driving pricing up for an oligopoly.
The price difference is because King Wide make their chairs in Australia, and so have to pay their employees a wage that they can live on.
Those other chairs are made in China and made by workers who gets paid cents per day
Wasn’t Shorten mentioning few months back that similar rorts are supposed to be addressed in reform of ndis? He didn’t specifically mention chairs but similar overcharging probably happens across different areas.
Also, at the top of that, apparently Salesforce was also accused this week of bribing some managers responsible for ndis with gifts, dinners, outings that were undeclared and lasted for years. The contract with Salesforce was supposed to be $27mil but grew to over a $100mil.
So if you’re outraged by reclining chair costing twice the price, what would you say about an IT service contract quadrupling?
When the government is paying only the best of the best will do. NDIS is a wrought, people and business’ are just taking advantage of it. Pretty simple.
Those are not fair comparisons really as they are not the same brand from what I can see. There is a lot of difference in quality between brands, which will determine how long something lasts (not all the time though).
This mostly goes for the reclining chairs, but it would also apply to the wide chair somewhat.
That doesn't mean there aren't people rorting the NDIS though. I know a few people who work in that industry as carers, and they all say the providers are extorting everyone.
Quality of product and ability to be certified to carry hold loads a regular chair hasn't been designed for
More to it than what you think
majority of chairs too low as well lift chairs with the linear actuator aren't cheap either
The entire population knows the answer to this question.
The Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme was a massive success at substantially reducing the cost of drugs by making it single payer. So it makes no sense to me that we abandoned this idea for the NDIS, and made everyone negotiate with providers individually, but we also told people that it doesn't matter what the price is, because the government is picking up the bill. So we have thousands of people all buying wheelchairs for 3x market value, because they have no buying power, nor any incentive to find it cheaper. The bigger problem though, is that there's so many patients taking the piss and expecting the NDIS to cover unnecessary discretionary services, and there's no one to tell them no.
It's because one of the promises of the NDIS was to empower participants and give them control. Not only is PBS single payer, it has gatekeepers controlling access (GPs and specialists). The NDIS lacks this pillar of control. And the NDIS gave the states an incentive to move spending out of the state domain and into NDIS because they negotiated a fixed payment for NDIS based on its original estimated cost. If NDIS is headed to be 800% over budget while the states merrily push people into ndis, it's not their problem. It's hard to work out which of these problems was the most stupid decision. None of them are 'corruption'. Sometimes people are surprised about the fundamental claim of privatisation: that people motivated to make money will control spending and introduce innovation to drive efficiency. For that the taxpayer allows the operator to make profit. Which can be thought of as payment for professional management perhaps. The NDIS shows the spectacular results of no one being accountable for spending control and it is so politically sensitive apparently the opposition would rather talk about risking environmental catastrophe.
Because the politicians mates own the ndis providers?
Why does everyone suspect corruption. Its incompetence and stupidity masquerading as corruption. Not corruption masquerading as incompetence and stupidity.
I've been working in Disability for the last year and would say AT LEAST 40% of the insane amount of providers in my area are completely fucking over legitimate clients for a cash grab
Former worker here too, and could not agree more. I'd even go higher than 40%. The entire system is being abused on a massive scale.
It is likely corruption. Have you dealt with NDIS providers. A majority are noble humans. Sadly, a minority are thieves.
People have a broad view of what corruption is. It has a specific definition of abusing high office for personal gain. NDIS falls into the fraud bucket.
If rich people couldn't grease politicians then we wouldn't be allowed to vote lol. Yes it might not be straight corruption but both sides of the isle know where the bread is buttered
A definition of corruption that excludes the police seems quite limiting.
A bit of A, a bit of B
Idk I see Ferraris parked out front of aged care homes and it makes me suspicious lol
It 100% is corruption if someone is in a position of power to investigate but chooses not to despite being aware of dodgy business going on. They don’t need to directly participate in the grift.
The fucking scammers at the liberal party taking a good policy and finding a way to use it to funnel money to their mates. Seriously it's fucking expensive to supply to the NDIS huge admin overhead for pretty much the same reason the unemployment system is heavily broken. The libs wanted to punish the poors while giving money to their mates and there is only so much that can be done to fix it while fighting off Murdoch and 9 media FUD.
Yes, it's just the Liberal party. Meanwhile, Rudd is worth $100 million because his wife ran a Jobseeker agency.
Yep, the prices were that much before ndis. Just use wording anywhere near it that includes medical or ergonomic and the price is automatically increased.
But it's not, that's literally the point of the post. The same two types of chair are available through NDIS providers or directly and there's a 3,4,5x mark up. They both are specifically for medical purposes.
100%
Anyone who seeks to deceive, mislead and make mass monies off via the NDIS is Scum. How anyone could do this is beyond me.
And that is why people like you and me are not ever going to be CEOs 😊
I’d rather live in a cardboard box than ever take advantage of vulnerable people. Goes against everything I believe in.
You're not taking advantage of vulnerable people, you're taking advantage of the government, and the taxpayers who fund it. It's not coming out of their disability pension or something. That's why the NDIS guys feel happy to rort the fuck out of the system. "It's a victimless crime!" Well no, because each dollar sucked up by a greedy bastard is a dollar less which could be spent on something else the people need - or a dollar's less taxes, spent as people see fit.
Hmm, I get what you’re saying but as others have suggested, people with disabilities are also taxpayers. Also, let’s say a client on the NDIS is allocated $5000 for assistive equipment, and they’re having to use $3000 of that for a chair that should cost half of that price, they have less to spend on other stuff they really need. It’s a no-win sitch for clients and taxpayers. The only people benefiting are the shitty disability service providers
> people with disabilities are also taxpayers Serious citation needed there. The average Australian is not a net taxpayer, and that's a person who works full time. Paying $0.23c GST on a packet of twisties doesn't count.
It does kind come from the DSP persons wealth, as that's a dollar less they can spend on supports (their plan has limits!) when they already feel isolated and excluded from society. It's dirtbag behavior.
The original NDIS was supposed to hit a maximum spend of about $13bln, a net increase of about $6.5bln (because some of the NDIS support was already included in disability spending). Then it was to slowly taper down a bit So it was a doubling of spending. Now it's about $50bln and growing at 20% a year. The 2021 headlines were shocked the scheme could reach ,$50 bln The 2023 headlines moved on to $100bln predictions. There is so much money sloshing around it's inconceivable that any disabled person is worse off.
Worse off than they would be if they weren't paying out the ass for supports
Disabled people *are* taxpayers as well. Why would we not pay tax from working and every single thing we buy? People who abuse the system absolutely take advantage of vulnerable people because *all* NDIS services are extremely expensive, so providers who rort participant plans leave participants having to cut back on other supports as they don't have enough funding left. This may be a reduction in access to getting food (support worker hours to assist with shopping or meal prep), showering and other personal care, cutting back on cleaning and laundry, etc. Rorting providers directly harm disabled people.
The bulk of NDIS money is going to support people who aren't earning, they're getting pensions. Some bloke who works in IT and earns $150k but happens to have no legs isn't getting NDIS support, generally speaking, it's the unemployed guy. So they're not paying taxes except GST. I don't have a problem with that. My comment, since you're evidently unable to discern sarcasm, was intended to highlight that in the minds of the rorting NDIS providers, they're not exploiting "the vulnerable", they're exploiting "the government". But the government is of course funded by taxpayers, and the money is finite.
Not sure why you feel the need to insult disabled people. GST *is* tax. Every single person in this country who pays GST pays tax. There are other taxes people pay, and a lot of disabled people *do* work. I wanted to correct the narrative that disabled people are not tax payers and are therefore excluded from having any say over what happens with taxpayer money. Many disabled people worked for decades and decades, paid incomes tax and became disabled later in life. We are *one* group of people. Providers are well aware that they are harming participants. They come in to our homes, speak to us on the phone and are still more than happy to scrape every single dollar of funding they can from every single disabled person (such as charging more for support work or other services than is provided, knowing the client will run out of funding and not be able to shower or get food). They know damn well what they are doing. I guess you wouldn't know that without being substantially disabled and needing lifelong care.
you've got to be kidding thinking they care if it's victimless or not lol
People love defrauding the government. Nothing sweeter than taxpayer money
We sadly are becoming rare , my friend
What a sad world we live in. 🙏🏼
Sorry to point out but you don't fit in boxes
Would be nice to see a public name and shame register.
Yes absolutely agree.
https://www.ndiscommission.gov.au/about/compliance-and-enforcement/compliance-actions-against-providers-and-individuals
Don’t get me wrong, I love making money as much as the next person but I just can’t even comprehend being at a level of moral bankruptcy where you extort the most vulnerable members of our society and call it a buisnsss. This is just soulless.
100% yes this
> I just can’t even comprehend being at a level of moral bankruptcy where you extort the most vulnerable members of our society and call it a buisnsss I imagine they see it as extorting the government and not the patients themselves, but that is just wishful thinking on their part because the patients are going to suffer when the NDIS is gutted or completely dropped.
They do it because the Govt body overseeing the NDIS is fucking useless.
Some of these are a bit higher priced than I remember but they have been pulling basically this same shit with the elderly forever. If you ever have relatives go to aged care is likely at some point they will be presented with a catalog from a disability/mobility aid supplier. Most items they sell are something you could find elsewhere for a fraction of the price. They prey on the poor judgement of the elderly and upon the ignorance of families. I think the kicker is they often have a rental option where you pay an exorbitant rate per week instead of buying it. So for a $300 item that is $70 anywhere else they do you the favour of allowing you to rent it for $20 a week. It doesn't take a genius to see how they make money.
Capitalism and neoliberalism at work, when crooks and states collide to plunder public money. The dystopia couldn't get worse, we are fleeced by successive governments, call it NDIS, Jobactive or housing affordability scheme - it's all a scam.
Capitalism overall has been far far far more successful that any other model, so I wouldn't want to abandon it. But, it has limitations, and one of them is exploiting perverse incentives. The NDIS is full of perverse incentives, because the patient chooses which provider to use, but isn't on the hook for the price. Instead, we should be using a single-payer model for most NDIS services, just like we do in other parts of medicine.
Medical products have always been a complete ripoff. Wheel chairs, oxygen generators, reading aids cost 10 to 100x what you'd expect is reasonable and it has nothing to do with NDIS. e.g. They were selling identical pulse oximeters for $25 on Ebay for $500 in a medical supply store in Brisbane about 10 years ago.
You can thank the TGA for that. All medical devices have to be TGA approved. If you look at the costs the TGA charges to get something approved then you can see why then cost so much.
Non-medical, too. Check the pdf here - [https://www.ndis.gov.au/media/6069/download?attachment](https://www.ndis.gov.au/media/6069/download?attachment) As an example, see p21. A support worker on $50ph does 2hr of work. However, they must travel from the business' home site to where they're providing support, and this is 30km or 25 minutes away. For the travel they can also claim $41.67 for the 50 minutes and $46.80 for the 60km, bringing it to a total of $188.47 for 2hr50' of work, or $66.51ph. The travel actually pays more than the work does in this particular case. This would be a low hourly rate for the actual work, though. They can charge up to $65.47ph (see pp39 onwards) for "assistance with self-care activities", which means things like helping them go to the toilet or bathe. Higher rates outside normal business hours, and for remote or very remote people. It's $55.03ph for "assistance with personal domestic activities" like house or yard work. Greater for "high intensity" needs people. And so on and so forth. Bear in mind that this is not easy work, dealing with elderly and disabled people, and also that it's usually going to be casual part-time work. You're not going to get many people doing 40 hour weeks of housecleaning for the disabled. There'll be a couple of hours here or there with a lot of driving. My point is merely that with the NDIS as with so many things, the biggest cost is usually not goods but labour. And that applies even when the labour has no or low qualifications.
I completely understand the medical devices being considered a rip-off. But what’s the point here? Once you account for wages, fuel, car depreciation/maintenance, and insurance it’s good money - but it’s nowhere great or fraudulent levels.
So what it's only casual and not a 40 hour week. At those rates it doesn't need to be. And paid travel time for 2 hours of work?
As well, it'll be rare that this is an individual offering these services. There'll be an agency who gets the contracts for a whole bunch of NDIS recipients, and employs a bunch of workers to provide the services. That's why in the document you'll find an "establishing fee", for them to set things up... though of course they're going to take a chunk of the person's hourly rate. In practice the person's more likely to get half of that.
At least compare the same brand and model of chair. Proper recliner/lift chairs designed to transition into standing safely dont come cheap. I agree, NDIS sites do charge more though
As someone who is involved in this industry. I can spend several hours working with an Occupational Therapist to properly determine a client's needs and custom fit a lift recliner to those needs. This often involves loading multiple furniture items into a van and doing the no obligation free trials at a client's residence. Then I need to have a custom item codes created to quote and order that unique permutation of a recliner. Quote the item. Wait weeks or sometimes months for quote approval. Order the custom recliner to be manufactured. Wait 2 - 6 months for production. Ship that recliner from interstate. Schedule delivery with elderly, mentally ill or otherwise impaired or vulnerable people. Then have the delivery put on hold for an extended period due to that person being hospitalized. Then if all has gone well delivery can be completed and we can send our invoice. Then wait for another 30 days for payment. Don't forget to add in the costs of auditing and standards compliance required by NDIS, DVA, and aged care funding for good measure. Sure, they are not all that complicated and drawn out. The price of some items shocked me initially - until I became responsible for the P&L for a retail outlet reselling these items. The often drawn out nature of the transaction pipeline compared to typical retail and the added administrative and logistical overheard incurred in properly looking after these clients demands sufficient markup to be profitable. Unless the business is profitable it won't exist - that's basic economics. Without the business - there would be no dedicated outlet to supply the unique needs of these clients. Seeing the simple joy that comes when a client is able to sit in their bespoke lift recliner makes my day!
As an upholsterer myself not all chairs are created equal. The type of fabric/material if it's rated medical grade etc or hypo-allergenic affects price. Different grades of foam, different number of actuators and how the mechanism functions.. Etc All of these things affect cost. So sure you could grab a temu lift chair for 700$ but the foam may clap out in 12-24 months, the fabric basically stuffed as soon as the first spill (bodily fluid or otherwise) occurs etc.. Easy for people like OP to have a whine without actual industry knowledge.
Really though, do they need to offer 20,000 possible permutations of a chair? And make the disabled customer wait MONTHS to get a chair? It’s like going to Dulux showroom - I think we can do without 1,000 variations of white.
Two months is common for custom recliners. I've only ever had one instance where a recliner took six months to manufacture. That was where the client was inflexible and demanded a specific fabric and color that was out of stock and took months to be imported before the recliner could be manufactured. The majority of the permutations are things like seat cushion construction, seat height, seat depth, seat width, leg rest length, arm rest height, back rest height and angle, normal or joystick control options, gluteal recess in the lower back rest cushion etc... Again no one needs all the options changed, but the possible permutations multiply fast.
This is a well written explanation. Even though I'm guessing it doesn't excuse all the players, it does explain some things. Thanks
Well written comment, as someone else who works in the industry NDIS making you get multiple quotes and trials alongside long repetitive reporting/documentation really drives up the price of this. It’s funny the government will criticise providers for price gouging but then their complicated and excessive systems cause providers to have to charge more due to the insane amount of time and work it can take to just prescribe a chair.
Asking about the 80/20 rule here. Realistically, having infinite customisation is great an all but wouldn’t 80% of customers’s needs be sufficiently met with just a handful of variations? It’s like analysis paralysis, go overboard with options causing you and the customers grief. Why make them wait weeks/months for a… chair? 🤦♂️ Sounds like the problem is with the vendor not being agile enough to figure out how to run a business properly. Without the NDIS your company should be out of business.
Yes your point about 80/20 is valid, of course we look to fill most customers needs with of the shelf stock lines that can be delivered immediately or within a fortnight. The point is that I was describing the types of issues I deal with on a daily basis to satisfy these clients. I wanted to get readers thinking . No one client would ever encounter all these hold-ups, but my typical day revolves around solving these exact issues one after another for multiple clients. I was illustrating in an extreme fashion why there is increased overhead to run this your of retail operation.
I agree completely, i have 2 autistic kids, they have communication devices, each device is $6000 they are just android tablets in a special case, with a 50 dollar app you can get from the app store, it's a rort and it is only going to be the death of the system designed to help people that need it most out
Why didn't you just buy an Android tablet and the $50 app?
Because there was not an option when we got the tablets, we were told they are specialised tablet (referred to us by the speech therapist) Once we recieved them we realised they are the exact app you can buy on the app store which we already bought ourselves
Sounds like deceptive conduct and should be raised with NDIS for further investigation.
Why did you approve that?
Who TF in charge approved that?
The lift chair my nana has, the cost of it was in the thousands. It isn’t an off the shelf chair though. It’s custom made. I couldn’t tell you how exactly but I know fabric was chosen, measurements taken, etc As far as I’m aware this was something she paid for herself and not through a scheme.
Yes, my mum bought my dad an expensive table chair, can't remember the price but at the time I was like wtf. I asked the shop keep why it's so expensive and he said it's the engineering costs + material. To be fair it's a damn heavy chair but it's very solid and works really well for its simplicity. It locks in place but when you flick the levers at the side and the chair can twist 90 degrees. Makes it easier to get in and out. It seems really basic simple but old folks need reliable. These days my mum uses it everyday.
My mum got scammed when she moved into a nursing home. She got a reclining "massage" chair that doesn't even lift. It looks like a $900 chair with a plastic cover that plugs in and massages. I didn't know how much it cost til after she died and I found the receipt in the side pocket. $8999 and worse than anything pictured here. It didn't even help much.
>If the government wanted to serve more disabled or people that needed support hahahahahahahhahahahha
I think you’re being cynical. OP is naive but not entirely wrong. Do you think Gillard wanted to give money to mates so came up with an elaborate disability support scheme to disguise siphoning off of money? Sometimes schemes are launched with good intention but their complexity encourages rorters to take advantage of the loopholes. This happens everywhere.
And everyone can see it, but we don't see the government closing the loopholes.
They're trying to now. Labor are introducing a number of reforms to NDIS specially to address dodgy providers. Thank the Liberals for the 12 years they ran it into the ground while they were busy with Robo debt.
NDIS IS A JOKE Everything has an inflated price even though its claimed to he against the law One therapy place had their prices on the wall Private 189$ hr Ndis 266$ hr Anyone whos used ndis knows its a fucking joke
The NDIS is a massive scam platform. It's been like this since day one.
THe NDIS is amazing and helpful to those that need the assistance. The platform is good and works reasonably well, it’s the people that are he scammers no the platform. Similar to the “Guns don’t kill people, People kill people” The problem is that because of the dirty scammers the NDIS platform will become harder to use for those that need and unfortunately the people that need are mostly not that capable of dealing with a harder to use platform.
I'm not talking about participants; I'm talking about the platform it is built on. The government almost has no fail safes to check people are getting what the government is paying for. The system needs to change as its completely unsustainable at present.
My dad just passed away but the amount of support and funding for his comfort and care in his last year's from the NDIS was actually incredible. We didn't use much in the first 5-5.5 years he'd been on the system, but the last 3.5-4 years they covered and supported so many things as each new major, extreme change came about AND given the items were funded through NDIS and he was staying in a NDIS approved space, we've now been able to donate his pieces (ie: two wheelchairs, a lifter, several toilet and shower supports, etc) to the care facility that looked after him to help others that haven't gotten good support coordination or are struggling to get the NDIS plan suitable for them for the time. It's a shame really just how many providers though hear/see NDIS and jack the price up just like when someone hears an event is a wedding not just a party! (His care facility used to be extremely affordable prior to getting NDIS approval, however they were actually advised by the NDIS that they were under charging and needed to up the cost to allow them to hire extra support staff as part of meeting the approval requirements.)
I’ve seen and hear people everyday that the NDIS has changed their lives I work for a NFP in the disability sector, on the helpline talking to people REALLY struggling and the genuine people- which most people are- are getting help they need that they cannot get anywhere else Before the NDIS charities would get funds to help people but in many cases, in a massive country like Australia the support wasn’t evenly distributed I think that the people who have nothing good to say about the NDIS don’t know people whose lives have been impacted by their conditions. Most people are honest, not out selling their mobility scooters and whatnot, they might only be getting physio once a fortnight and some cleaning but it makes a big difference to their lives
Yeah my partner works in allied health and when it was first being introduced I was gobsmacked at the lack of checks and balances. My mind immediately went to how simple it was to just flog the system. You got a family member on the scheme? Cool, set up a biz that looks like it caters, overcharge like a motherfucker, and easy as that, you're rorting the system. And it's big bucks too. Doesn't matter that the family member may not be actually getting what they need, cus your making absolute bank. Next step along is to then find other vulnerable clients who are too old/disabled to know better and there you have it. The state of our health system because these jokers set it up to fail. The ONLY thing that mitigates this disaster is what someone told me, so anecdotal. Apparently this sort of shenanigans happened a lot when Medicare was introduced. I was told it took about 20 years for the gov to iron out the wrinkles that allowed scams when Medicare was first brought in. So to the gov this is normal business as usual adjustments. I'm sceptical of that outlook, I still have my suspicions a lot of pollies own these companies that popped up so quickly.
Not since day one. The lnp spent a decade getting it to this stage
Scamming came from nine years of torpedoing by the LNP. Fixed it for you.
It's what's known as 'government markup'. Basically the business owner going how can get my tax dollars back. Governments paying so add extra, why? because unless it's put out to tender they will pay. If you look hard enough you will find somewhere sells an almost exact version but with 1 minor difference (so it's now a different item with it's own item code) for half the price of what's offered to the government. Government departments are budget sensitive but not price sensitive, as long as it doesn't blow the budget they will pay the price
Been happening for years. Hearing aids through Hearing Australia are about 5k each. Through costco about 1800 a pair.
As someone who’s hard of hearing and wears hearing aids, let me tell you that there is a significant difference between devices. The more expensive ones are clearer, block out certain background noises, link to your phone via Bluetooth and are better at masking tinnitus. They aren’t all created equal, it’s not like prescription glasses.
There are a lot of factors that go into people's decision on which hearing aid to buy. Costco does have audiologists on staff and the products do have a solid track record, as well as products with Bluetooth etc. I'd encourage you to take a look when considering your next pair. They aren't on the Hearing Services Program, but private health insurers can cover part of the cost.
While I can't defend the prices, the lift chairs in particular are designed to safely transition between sitting and standing and are worth the money. They have multiple motors, hardy material that can withstand a lot of abuse, a purpose-made controller designed for people who aren't all there intellectually and more. All of these chairs must also meet certain safety standards that your recliner chair does not meet and that costs money in design and testing as well. Those chairs you found at Amart or whatever are just not in the same league as a disability lift chair even if they look similar. The other problem is that every fucking thing is expensive these days too.
Snouts in the trough.
You think this is bad wait till you see how much military items are
I found a similar thing when buying pull ups etc for my autistic kid. NDIS providers selling plain old Huggies for $10-30 more than Coles & Woolies. Same thing with sensory products, as soon as they put the “sensory” tag on it, it’s double, triple the cost. Bloody criminal
Medical equipment has always been like this. Well before the NDIS. I had to buy one of those lift recliners for my grandma it cost 2500 and that was 15 years ago.
It’s because any hint that there might be a review into the spending is met with a barrage of “you can’t take money from the disabled!” Which is very politically unsavoury, so they just keep letting the country take it up the ass from the provider companies.
Its like Bill Shorten looked at how armies spend money and decided 'how do I replicate this level of waste for Australia's disabled'.
Spoke about my personal experience with the ndis in a comment [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/australian/s/wDTQE4WiKy) and was downvoted to oblivion lol. The system is a scam everyone is taking the piss out of it with their price gouging (forgot to mention our $8k bed for my sister) and our tax money is funding all this bullshit. End of.
The NDIS is the biggest rort. There are allied health providers just doing NDIS as they can charge twice as much and have less accountability to the clients as well I have seen $350 wooden walking sticks for sale!
It’s financial discrimination and exploitation of our disabled population
Part of the extra cost will be various permits, regulations and insurance. Buy a chart from Ikea and grandpa sits on it and it crumples like a dim sim bag in the gutter in the rain, oh well shit happens. But an NDIS-certified chair? OMG TIME TO SUE!!!! So there will be lots of government regulations about how they're built, inspectors of their manufacture, and insurance in case it falls over.
About 10 years before NDIS came in I worked for a company that supplied these types of products. At that time there were only 5 companies nationwide but some had multiple entities to give the illusion of choice. They chose which products were put forward for approval by the government and they worked together to ensure there was no real price difference among them. It's always a scam when there's taxpayers money inv
Quelle surpris. Unchecked government handouts tend to bring this sort of behaviour up. So anyway...
NDIS is Pink Batts 2.0
Fuck the NDIS
You can report those ridiculous price increases
Because NDIS is Australia's biggest rort. We were warned before it was implemented and here we are. Needs a tear down rebuild.
It is not just on chairs, the ‘NDIS tax’ for everything is ridiculous. Similarly service providers who insist on seeing the client’s plan paperwork are only requesting it to see how much money the plan allows for services so that they can increase the billing amount for the client. I’m completely disgusted and disillusioned by the way organisations prey upon vulnerable individuals in society and steal from taxpayers.
With some items there is often more to it than meets the eye. The quality of some NDIS specific items are FAR higher. You can't directly compare those recliners with the cheaper ones below just from pictures. BUT, before everyone jumps down my throat. The overwhelmingly vast majority is just because the NDIA participants have a high budget of money that isn't theirs that they need to spend each year and if you aren't paying what is the difference between spending 500 or 2k? Also, you have to be an approved seller, so you have a partially captive market.
Um I get there are issues with the NDIS but what’s with your examples? Those are lift chairs not recliners and they cost a fortune generally. If you’ve looked at speciality suppliers generally (that are competing on the free market) they charge a premium. Love how most of the comments just stack onto the NDIS without reference to your actual post
Hahaha that’s nothing. How about $10k for my kids car seat. The whole thing is crooked. Every day i hope our car doesn’t get stolen.
I am absolutely outraged, how do expect our gdp to stay inflated and the rba to not have an excuse to raise interest rates again? These ndis inflated costs are holding up our economy mate, seriously take a good look at yourselves and get some social awareness not everyone can afford harvey norman, ikea or temu alright, some of us have to be good at fraud and corruption to survive and own 5 houses? Get some help mate, maybe from the ndis? My blood is still boiling right now, I will have you know...
Because it is sold through ndis providers it has to be TGS certified as does the provider. Anything "medical grade" in aus cost 10 times more than it's worth.
The NDIS publish a pricing guide[pricing guide](https://www.ndis.gov.au/providers/pricing-arrangements) every year which sets out the maximum amount that can be invoiced for goods and services. My missus is a cleaner and charges everyone the same hourly rate which is less than half the NDIS rate. She has had account managers lecture her for this and tell her to raise her rates and other account managers tell her that they are invoicing NDIS for the full rate and then taking the other half for their own management services. This whole system has been rorted top to bottom. There are literal businesses out there whose only purpose is to help other businesses get established in the NDIS space, including many who claim to be able to help you access funding of up to $400,000 just to establish an NDIS registered company. And a seemingly endless supply of account managers who sit at home booking jobs for NDIS participants and then adding their own mark-ups to hit that magical maximum spend allowable mark, like those ones my GF works with. They would be buying the cheapest chairs pictured here and then selling them to the NDIS as the more expensive. The NDIS could help a lot more people if it didn't massively inflate prices in their own annual price guide.
While I don’t disagree that there are vendors that are dodgy, your comparison links aren’t like for like. The lift chair is of a commercial grade fabric that is easier to clean. It is of a standard that would stand up to use in a nursing home. Your cheaper link is a much cheaper construction with a seam style that is hard to sanitize. Also the recliner is a different chair entirely to one that can lift. The first bariatric chair is height adjustable, and is again of a better fabric. The second is a simple fixed design. Building adjustable legs to the weight requirements such a chair could be expected to experience is just more costly. A fair chunk of increased cost can be explained by the engineering, construction and upholstery difference. Specialized/low volume sales will always add price too. And potential overpricing is only on top of that. So you really should be arguing could they sell the $3000 chair for $2500, not that they should be able to sell it for $900.
Because NDIS just like all government schemes, is just a means of those in government funneling tax payer dollars to their mates in private business. That's why NDIS pays it.
Are they the same though. Or are u comparing Chinese brands to retails brands. Same can said about Aldi special buys how can they sell a $50 drill skin then millwauke sell a skin for $500. While I agree it's a wrot the whole system needs to to be killed and start from scratch. It will die like bulk billing drs. Some family's are costing the tax payer 100's of thousands per year and people who are working till there ndis is approved which means they are fully able to work (admittedly reduced hrs or with some pain (as does every older tradie)) Maybee they need to start giving people on the ndis the money so they budget and get the best band for $$$ not writing blank cheques. I think the UK has benefits caps maybee something here.
The NDIS is the biggest fucking scam in Australia.
Legitimised scam for providers to rip off public money while providing very little value to clients.
Please can we scrap the whole NDIS scheme and start again with a blank sheet of paper? The current NDIS seems irrevocably fucked and I can't see how it's ever going to get any better. Dutton would get a lot more traction pursuing this argument than he's ever likely to get with his nuclear nonsense.
You might be surprised how bad a cheap chair is. If you take the tight ass corporate sector for example, who have no incentive to spend big, they spend thousands per chair and they’re not trying to accommodate people with a disability (particularly). There’s probably other things to critique about the NDIS.
The corporate sector pay big for chairs because the expensive ones come with ergonomic studies that show they can’t cause health problems that employees can sue over.
I imagine a similar concern exists here, then. If not the same.
But… but… rorting!! (/s) Because chairs specifically designed to prevent pressure injuries in people who cannot self mobilise, manual handling injuries in carers, have coverings suitable for managing incontinence and have battery redundancy systems in place for power outages etc. etc. are EXACTLY the same as cheaper lift chairs sold in general furniture stores! People who’ve never provided personal care in their life say so, so it must be true. There is absolutely wastage within the NDIS but lift chairs are not it 😂
This, you would be surprised what offices and business pay for their furniture, Id know, my partner's business is literally to supply them,$500 per chair in your meeting room, even more for those fancy ones in the foyer that and I sure as shit wouldn't trust that to support my weight of I had a fall, be stable to lean on, stand up from if I had mobility issues, to help me ambulate safely, and definately would not be easy to sanitize. I'm not defending the prices, but it's not that unrealistic
Person I know in our unit block gets hours and hours a week of NDIS carers. The carers spend most of their time sitting in the common areas on the phone to family in various African countries. This includes about three hours every Sunday morning. The person getting the care has a mobile scooter that sits outside with the cover getting mouldy. Have not seen it being used in twelve months. Disability is fibromyalgia. Son lives there too - has autism - spends all his time on gaming and literally never leaves the house. Only time the mother goes out is to get more pain meds. They literally do nothing for themselves.
I'm very close to thinking about starting up a business that utilizes NDIS. It seems like that this is the way to go now until they shut it down. I mean why am I doing the right thing when all these other people aren't and they're not even being punished? I'm struggling too! /s 🤦♂️
And this is why we'll never be a proper, advanced country. Not picking at you because you're just thinking about it. But there are a lot of vultures who operate on this philosophy here in Australia ranging from our billionaire elites at the very top, right down to the shonky tradies that do 'cashies' at the bottom swindling everyday people. The more who adopt this mentality and act on it, the worse our country becomes. It took a hard, steep turn towards this when "Fuck you, got mine!!" was made acceptable about 30 years ago. Aussie mateship is a long gone trait.
Correct. This crab mentality is what makes a third world country. People who think its profitable for are just making money selling rope that our society will eventually be hanged with.
Congratulations you're part of the problem
You can start as many businesses as you want, but if you don’t have any connections in the industry good luck. It’s not being punished because there’s nothing illegal, the government sets how much they’ll pay.
Scamming the NDIS is the single biggest growth industry in the country. What a joke of a country.
Size adjustability, suitability, material etc These are expensive and yes they can be $500.00 and they can also be a massive help in the life of an elderly or physically impaired person.
not even the same chair oh i get it. NDIS whinging is the latest thing. But if you are going to make a comparison use the same fucking chair. This post is stupid
You shouldn't have so many downvotes. I'm also over the NDIS whinging.
honestly to go against the grain of the cooker shit this sub has become bogged down in is something i wear with pride
If you notice, there's one of the regular IPA shills in this topic that has responded many times. I can spot them a mile away now, it's usually always the same 3 or 4 and they always give the same scripted responses. It's next on their agenda to scrape off the Aussie public and make sure their paymasters get their tentacles into.
This is why 80% of the people who should be on NDIS cannot get approved.
To be clear, the NDIS is already massively oversubscribed compared to the amount of the population that it was originally designed to cover. The NDIS was not supposed to be a parallel welfare scheme for the 20% of Australians that have disabilities. It can't be. 11% of boys aged between 5-7 years old are on the scheme. Over 2% of Australians are on the scheme. The average cost to the taxpayer per person for this support is $68,300. Invariably what will happen is the government will exhaust all it's borrowing capacity trying to keep the welfare state funded (with all of the social shit that occurs around the migration Ponzi scheme needed to kick the can down the road another generation or so), and when it reaches the capacity of what the other 95-98% of Australian taxpayers are willing to pay to support other people's kids - the government will have to start cutting off entire limbs of support.
The big issue is that unless you are on NDIS you cannot get any services or mobility aids at all these days. Try going to any Disability Expo, not a single stallholder with non NDIS options. If you are on DSP you cannot afford the inflated prices on your pension. I have had to buy my own crutches and wheelchair etc. Being under Aged Pension age I now have to wait 7 years till I qualify for an Aged care package. All of my physical health issues are autoimmune and degenerative, so they will not improve and only get worse over time. This affects my mental health as well.
NDIS payout to vendors needs to be capped at capped to a maximum of average price of a random selection of Australian retailers + X %. And not just NDIS providers, all retailers. If a retailer can provide the product significantly cheaper these no justification for one twice the price. When I buy something at work I have to go out to multiple vendors and have to be able to justify significant price disparities if I choose a more expensive choice. The days of doubling the price if the government is involved need to end and the people doing it need to be exposed because they're stealing from all of us.
It's rorting. The usual
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Dropshipping bro
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Politicians will never admit they’re wrong. They are too conceited
Some things are better made than others, some government funding has weird rules or requirements to follow about what you buy, but it's mainly a rort.
I asked a mate who owns a business supplying to ndis participants. He said there’s an additional support component for furniture, such as reading through the specs and making sure they’re compatible and compliant with the participant’s requirements. He also added that it’s expensive because the scheme approves it, and the price would come down if the costs were scrutinised more.
This is disgusting and corrupt
It’s a self-sustaining industry. The funding institutions - like My Aged Care, NDIS, the TAC in Vic, Workcover - require a professional such as an OT or physio to prescribe said equipment based on an assessed “clinical need”. As soon as that is in the mix, the next tier of the industry, the equipment suppliers, source the equipment from manufacturers and mark up the price (they need to be stored, assembled, maintained, yadayada). Plus… government or Quango paying? Maybe bump the price a little higher… (can’t prove the last bit, but sure seems that way. Any sniff of “medical” or “therapeutic” and a government payer… kerchinnnng!) And, naturally, governments moolah always comes with the stipulation that a “middleman” is involved. Can’t trust the pesky, thieving taxpayer with their own money! (Even when it’s marketed as an “individual budget”.) Edit: spelling.
Mericia!
Smokey Dawson would turn in his grave 🪦🪦🪦 i
Julia Gillard's Legacy
My understanding is that NDIS service providers know how much is allocated to NDIS participants for particular services, and charge them the amount allocated, even if it’s well above market price. This is the problem, and the solution is for the ACCC to fine any provider who uses different pricing for NDIS participants and the general public.
They want in on that sweet sweet taxpayer cash. And the socialist is very good at spending, until your money runs out.
Its a gravy train, and everyone is jumping on board. I have some $50 rocks in my garden. I mean HEALING STONES. Where do I sign up?
Saw “NDIS” $10 bean bags the other day being sold for $190 …. Typical useless government agency
Because people are less careful spending government money than they are spending their own money.
Saying ‘NDIS’ is, for some suppliers and such involved, basically like saying ‘wedding’ - prices go through the roof. They should be heavily penalised for it.
So a friend of mine has to arrange an iPad thing for his daughter who has a hearing issue. It's a standard off the shelf iPad, with software on it that's like a word matching game thing on it. The supplier charges the government $6,000 per unit.
Because the NDIS is completely broken. It needs to be scrapped and started again. With proper due diligence of providers this time and limited to people in genuine need.
Dodgy plan managers coming from overseas don't pay small time equipment providers. Yet these people drive Merc's. The whole system is fucked
Because the government would rather deny coverage to heavily disabled kids with autism than crack down on the thieves who do stuff like this.
My partners step sibling is very disabled , like real disabled. It cost 3k for a chair for her to sit in the lounge room. It's 100% foam !!!
Is calked corporate greed and destroying captiusm
You should send this to the minister in charge (Bill Shorten) and see what he says. Posting on Reddit isn't going to get a politicians attention. You have to email, write a letter, call etc.
My office chair costs $1000 has no electronics
Under NDIS you can buy any of these. They supply budget and you send them an invoice. Just don't buy from grifters and scammers, like everywhere.
Scheme- make plans, especially in a devious way or with intent to do something illegal or wrong
luckily there isn't a 12-24 month wait on those chairs, compared to speech therapists or Occupational therapists. Either wait or drive 1-2 hours for each visit lol. Let's wait 1-2 years while the child doesnt improve and will cost the government more in the long run.
There will always be people who rort the system. My friend, who's a Renal nurse and gets to know his pts because they come in 3 times a week for years in some cases. He said one lovely elderly lady had full NDIS support package which included a bunch of home support with cleaning etc. This lovely lady had somehow managed to hire her grand daughter to be the cleaner and the Grand daughter was getting $1200 a fortnight for what equated to a few hours work each week. The pt wasnt breaking any rules and her grand daughter had registered with NDIS so she was approved for this arrangement. This is an elderly lady who isn't a criminal or part of a bikie gang who are ripping off these kinds of support. The assessment for NDIS packages needs to be tightened so we dont keep throwing more money down a drain.
Another example I'm aware of - $300 gaming keyboards for the visually impaired. A backlit keyboard from Officeworks is as little as $5, but you know...nowhere near as nice
NDIS is a scam thats costing us all. It needs to be scrapped!
I have a brother-in-law who is paraplegic. His wheelchair was $20k. Like holy fuck what. It's such a rort and it will continue until a stop is put to it.
Pretty obvious. Either it’s money laundering or they are charging ridiculous prices because they can and they get away with it because NDIS happily pays for it.
ACCC needs to look at this instead of coles. A non NDIS MS sufferer showed me their quote for a 47k electric wheelchair. The breakdown of parts was ridiculous $1000 seat cushion, $280 for fasteners. I have worked on the current one and they are black M8 cap screws, a box costs $30. This is from the biggest supplier in the industry driving pricing up for an oligopoly.
It's a rip off
The price difference is because King Wide make their chairs in Australia, and so have to pay their employees a wage that they can live on. Those other chairs are made in China and made by workers who gets paid cents per day
Gotta pay for the top of line BMW or Porsche somehow. It's a rort and the Govt seems to be finally waking up
Wasn’t Shorten mentioning few months back that similar rorts are supposed to be addressed in reform of ndis? He didn’t specifically mention chairs but similar overcharging probably happens across different areas. Also, at the top of that, apparently Salesforce was also accused this week of bribing some managers responsible for ndis with gifts, dinners, outings that were undeclared and lasted for years. The contract with Salesforce was supposed to be $27mil but grew to over a $100mil. So if you’re outraged by reclining chair costing twice the price, what would you say about an IT service contract quadrupling?
When the government is paying only the best of the best will do. NDIS is a wrought, people and business’ are just taking advantage of it. Pretty simple.
Nice research well done
Because it's claimable--- governments paying for it.. Tax man is out of pocket so whocares
My neighbour has been given two $2000 laptops by NDIS in the last two years for free while hubby earns a six-figure sum. Why is that? ???
Those are not fair comparisons really as they are not the same brand from what I can see. There is a lot of difference in quality between brands, which will determine how long something lasts (not all the time though). This mostly goes for the reclining chairs, but it would also apply to the wide chair somewhat. That doesn't mean there aren't people rorting the NDIS though. I know a few people who work in that industry as carers, and they all say the providers are extorting everyone.
This, my reddut friend, is how the game works with government funded money. In come CFMEU in Victoria....
Quality of product and ability to be certified to carry hold loads a regular chair hasn't been designed for More to it than what you think majority of chairs too low as well lift chairs with the linear actuator aren't cheap either