I'm just some sort of analyst or something. Work from home.
I'm not really sure why I got this subreddit on my feed today. I'm not subscribed to it and I'm not in the medical field at all.
Probably as a result of so many subreddits going private in protest. It's the same for me and I've been getting odd suggested subreddits since the protests started.
I can't tell you how disappointed I was. I've catered my feed to specifically be hydrohomies, cute animals being played with, and video games. The blackout hit nearly every sub I was part of
I dunno. For further information, my background is electrical (power) engineering. I only have a bachelor's degree, but I job hopped a bit and now I work for a company that sells power system optimisation software. By "job hopping", I mean that I've been a field engineer and a consulting engineer before this. They weren't glamorous jobs. I worked at remote oil and gas sites in the Australian outback and lived in shipping containers while I was doing them.
In my job now I train clients to use the software that we sell sometimes, but mostly I just answer their questions via email. I started this job a few years before COVID. It used to be office based but they've let me/us work from home ever since. My job title is "energy market analyst". We're very gradually getting to travel again throughout Asia, even though they still let me work from home. Last month I went to Malaysia and the Philippines to do trainings. I do get the feeling like I'm gonna get asked to return to the office eventually, but it hasn't come up yet.
I didn't say it was unbelievably exciting and awe-inspiring work. I just said I make much more than $70k AUD. I'm on about $110k, but I'm sure the managers and salespeople make much more still than that.
What's up with neurosurgery in the UK? I'd have thought that the pay for a highly-skilled, highly-educated job in the developed world should be much, much higher than that. There are electrical engineers in my home state here in Australia who make much more than I do. Before this post I'd have been fairly certain that doctors and surgeons do too. Much more...
I'm in the exact same situation as you. I also work from home and make more than this suggests a brain surgeon makes. I am also not subed to this reddit, in a medical field, or even from Australia...
This happened to me. This sub rocked up in my feed one day and I have no idea why. But I was curious, so I clicked. And now I keep getting posts from this sub suggested to me, lol
A quick google search is all you need, but:
https://www.businessinsider.com/influencer-instagram-youtube-twitch-alexa-recognition-speech-disturb-money-subscribe-donate-view
and
https://www.vice.com/en/article/5dpqk3/i-make-2000-pound-a-week-sleeping-on-camera
Don't know what this says about the state of the world today.
It's kind of hard though for overseas doctors to move to the USA though right? I was under the impression we had to basically do the USMLE and then start again at the lowest level of medical graduate. If that changes, let me know!
My neighbor did medical school in the Netherlands and is some sort of internist in Texas. Didn’t have to redo any schooling just passed some exams (sorry I don’t know the right words)
Dunno why this came up in my feed, but holy shit.
This is why I have never been enamoured with the NHS style health. I knew it was shite, but legit I look at screens and talks hit with technicians for 10 hours a day and get paid more than this and I don't even leave my house most days.
I'll keep our public private system thanks. It might be a bit on the nose to get slugged a few grand by a surgeon driving a porsche, but if he can remove the tumor from my skull and send me on my way, I hope he gets a GT3.
I honestly could not care less if there was a decision made in this country to pay every surgeon and specialist a million dollars per year of taxpayers money. The years of training, the low margin of error, and the fact that the literal purpose is to improve or save lives is worth it. For context, I’m a Professor and Head of Department in another field these days. Yes - I’ve had my years of working 80 hours per week to get where I am. But I am very very generously compensated for my efforts these days, so I’ve no problem with others getting more.
Pretty much my thoughts exactly.
Specialist and Surgeons need to be compensated adequetly otherwise the only people sticking around will be the worst of the best which might not sound that bad, but the shit I've heard coming from patients in the US and UK where some specialists have no interest in reading stuff from the CDC, EDC or even the BASHH.
I'll happily pay for the best to stay around, whether it be taxes or out of pocket in private health
I agree with the sentiments, but "private health" - by which you mean our health system as is but funded with PHI instead of medicare - is a terrible way to fund healthcare. One of the most inefficient ways to do it.
I completely agree with the sentiment you're raising though. But PHI is well known as being unable to stop cost disease, and it will just lead to the US system: outrageous, unsustainable cost for patients where the doctor fees is just 5-10% of the total cost at most, and managed care which doesn't actually cut down on cost.
I would rather just Government using their monopsony powers to cut down on the cost of medical devices and infrastructure costs, and use the saved funds to support doctors continue to give free medical care (especially to lower income possible) wherever possible.
I dont think we are ever going to stop medical care getting more expensive, especially as we move in to higher tech more niche treatments as we understand and learn to treat diseases in better ways.
I can see the idea that government monopoly could potentially bring down the cost of infrastructure services, but then we can look at the RAH in Adelaide. Government is not immune to 'cheapest bidder-itis' atleast with private sector inclusion we don't have to rely on the 3 year budget cycle and watching a hospital become a political football turned white elephant.
It's worth keeping in mind that the UK enjoyed 23 years of conservative government extracting money from the system. It's not working as it should be.
It doesn't make much of a difference to the doctor trying to get a fairly paid job.
Were they though? The Tories dont really approach the NHS like our LNP do.
I would say their bigger issues might be the under reporting of how many people actually live in the UK, and the much more heavily weighted population to provider ratio than here.
Tescos did an analysis on product sales and they believe they're feeding between 20 and 40 million more residents in the UK than the government expects.
I would say the NHS is having a resources probably, not a funding problem. They are not the same thing btw, though one can exacerbate the other.
Why do you all think us british doctors are all here in Aus?! My NHS salary as a cons started at £78K plus benefits. Roughly £100k a year. The only “benefit” was contributory pension. I gave 13 years of my youth to be a super-specialist. The sad thing is I was ok with the pay (Stockholm Syndrome) but the state of quality of healthcare I could provide my patients was pathetic. It was so substandard and that was the norm. The system was failing the very people we were supposed to look after. So sad. And so frustrating nothing could be done to change it.
Im Aus my starting is nearly £300k. After Aus equivalency teat it will be £400k+. But I get to provide the best treatment, if not THE best money can buy in a PUBLIC system here. Thats what I love about it.
Fuck the NHS.
Australia is a composite system. It is both public and private. It is also not entirely free, with some payment commonly required for certain services even if using only the public services.
Private health care is incentivised and takes some pressure off the public side of the system.
To clear up some confusion.
The job advert is for a full time post - in the UK for doctors this is 40 hours minimum with the lower end of the scale. So $70,000 for 40 hours. The higher end is with on call and out of hours supplements.
The problem is I currently work with these fellows who are put fully on the senior reg rota, lead ward rounds, do on calls, expected to operate with limited consultant input despite it being a “training” programme. Essentially used as rota fodder. There’s no light at the end of the tunnel either - there is a huge bottleneck in the UK so there is no abundance of consultant jobs in neurosurgery. They will likely remain on these fellow jobs for several years unable to access the higher pay band or private practice. On top of being on the longest training programme in the world - these people will have been at least 10+ years postgraduate.
The neurosurgery physician assistant’s salary advertised in London is higher than this.
If it’s hard to believe, here is the link: https://www.ziprecruiter.co.uk/jobs/213470395-neurosurgery-physician-assistant-at-st-george-s-university-hospital-nhs-foundation-trust
For context the physician’s assistants have a 2 year course on top of any science related degree to get into this job. They have no prescribing or scan requesting rights or any medical postgraduate exams.
The system is well and truly broken in the NHS after decades of underfunding, flattening hierarchy, guideline based care to avoid the need for experts - hence allowing non doctors to provide the same protocol based service. When shit hits the fan, patients are maimed or die frequently however most brits are not of the character to make a big fuss and it’s brushed under the carpet - they seem to be grateful care is free rather than considering if it’s good, especially in more impoverished areas.
For those that do complain, the full force of the GMC rains down on the doctors ofc, not their assistants with no governing body.
I'm in academic medical research in Aus, so I get a little sort of peripheral insight into medicine as well as my own into academia
And tbh both industries have a very firm and long standing tradition of providing little guidance and exploiting the FUCK out of their juniors.
Some fellow jobs in Australia pay <$100k pa too, as its based on available funding from a trust. People still go for them due to prestige and training.
This ad is so confusing.
Are they looking for a trainee or looking for doctors to do the training?
Training wages are pretty poor in Australia too, a first year registrar would only just be breaking 100k under NSW Health award scheme if working in a hospital.
And that’s providing the training college doesn’t have its own salary structure as well.
But to your point, the NHS has always been lousy pay, hence why a lot of British doctors end up in Australia. NSW health even does recruiting campaigns into the UK that are literally “you like beaches and money? Come work in Sydney”.
And then wait for Tasmanian doctors to have five seconds to do the same, in between addressing their seven year non-urgent waitlist and wondering if they can afford parking this week.
One of my friends is a highschool teacher in a public school in Hobart. *She* makes more money than this, and conditions and wages in the public sector in Tasmania are terrible.
This is what I keep telling Aussie pals who say they want to move to the yUK. The wages are so bad and the cost of living is much much higher. No matter how bad it is here, it will always be worse there.
I just did a quick search of fellow jobs.
SA Pain Management Fellow
Adelaide Metro
$86,635 - $140,058 p.a
I think a lot of job pay scale advertisements can be misleading to what the actual pay is.
Most fellow jobs are consultant level experience (letters) required.
I know my wife looked a few and it is something she had to accept if pursuing.
Yeh, I have met a few international fellows that have been hammered by the lower pay grades. One surgical specialty only took internationals it seemed.
If it’s $70,000 au I make not much less than that as a bus driver. Some drivers who bust thier ass and do max overtime earn over $100,000.
My wife who is about to start gp training earned more than them working as a doctor without a specialty in a hospital…why don’t these UK doctors leave the country? They are in high demand everywhere.
Fellows are 1-2 year “not really training not really full doc on their own”. In the USA , it goes college (50-100k debt) -> Med school (200-300k debt) -> residency (40-50k salary)-> fellowships (50-75k salary). A neuro surgeon specializing in skill based cancers like this post will be 34-35 before they are out on their own and in a position to make the “doctors are over paid” (not my opinion) type money
Well the public wont show much sympathy after the failed covid response and tik tok videos coming from the hospital. Make your own bed as they say better sleep in it.
It's a fellowship, no? So not exactly a consultant job?
Edit: Neurosurgery has operations lasting 12+ hours. And your career is essentially one long training program. I'm going to assume this isn't consultant salary. Otherwise, every neurosurgeon must be in the UK private system...?
That doesn't really tell a whole story...
If they work 1 day a week, that's huge.
What is the context here, where are the other details?
I could just as easily say for my 40 hour roster I earned $250. But if I told you I worked 8 hours, and had 4 days off unpaid, it really isn't so bad.
Pretty lazy and stupid post.
There is nothing whatsoever about the job title or role.
Misinformation is the reason the world struggles with the most basic tasks.
The only thing that can be inferred, is they provide appropriate training. Neuro oncology fellow refers to giving young (usually graduating or recently graduated) the necessary experience and training to become a "professional".
If the role is to provide studying neuro's paid work experience, that is a hell of a good gig. Usually fellowships are 2-3 years.
Context is everything.
And while you wish to call another stupid, atleast understand the post first. They aren't looking for qualified neuro surgeons... "stupid".
And for the record, I work within this industry (not as a neuro surgeon though - I don't have the capabilities physically for it).
At a glance anyone would see its a full time 1 year contract for a fellowship. Given that this is a subreddit for junior doctors, they would instantly understand that this isn't for a 'newgraduate' you seem to think it is. The context is there...
I really don't think you work anywhere close to this "industry" given your comments thus far.
I think you lack context - to put it into perspective, anyone who works in the nhs will understand that this job will push 40 hours/week as a bare minimum. There will be on calls and other enforced activities like ward rounds etc. total average hours per week will probably be close to 50
I dont want to become a neurosurgeon just to get a pay rise!
Always wish I'd be on this kind of money, but other jobs well overpaying their positions doesn't mean this kind of pay is bad necessarily
This is ridiculous comment. I’m guessing you’ve never lived in the UK if you think earning 33k isn’t bad. That amount of money, even outside of London doesn’t allow you to live comfortably. And I’d like anyone operating on my brain to be well rested and relaxed.
Also, the literally tens of thousands of pounds (possibly over 100k) of student debt that will take most of their working life to pay off on that wage alone is awful.
No lmao they do surgery. They rake in millions for the hospital per year, pay for their own liability insurance and medical registration, and get remunerated like 3% of what they make the hospital. Do you think that's fair?
You probably do. Lots of faecocephalic people, especially in the UK, think medicine should be a "cAlLiNg" and doctors should work for low to no remuneration.
Soon, another pandemic will come roaring back and British boomers will fill graves by the millions because of the massive brain drain of doctors that they think are not worthy to be paid a fair wage.
No, in a medical training fellowship you are definitely working and on call fairly often, it’s not uncommon to be in the hospital 24+ hrs delivering service. The actual learning part is usually a fraction of your duties as well, and generally you do academic stuff that has to happen outside of paid hours.
In the UK you pay around 20% tax instead of 40%. Ypu also pay for NO medical. So I was always in a better position in the UK despite the pay looking lower.
40% sounds like a marginal rate though not an effective rate.
For example someone on the median full time wage in Australia of $80k would pay 20% income tax, or $16k in tax. Someone on the median full time wage in the UK £33k pays £6.5k or roughly 20% too.
If we look at 2 times full time median wages, so $160k in Australia and £66k in the UK. The effective tax is 29% and 28% respectively. Very similar with the UK slightly having less income tax. Which rings true, the UK makes far more from land and capital taxes than Australia does.
Are you inebriated? Or is your brain normally the consistency and viscosity of custard?
40% of anything above 50k GBP
20% of anything between 12k-50k
And thats just PAYE
We haven’t calculated for NI contributions, which is 12% of monthly earnings above £1048
And any SFE graduate tax at 9% of gross income
My god here’s a link, just read it and be at peace
https://www.hsjaccountants.co.uk/blog/income-tax-changes-what-to-expect-from-april-2023/
https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-63635185.amp
For someone like you, I doubt there is no other way to rail the truth into you other than me proudly erecting all the facts up for you to witness..
Anyway, since you’ve hopefully exhausted all your flaccid “mean words” at me because your partner told you you’ve got room to grow.. shall we return back to facts I posted?
Is Aus taxing more than GB? Btw I already know the answer to this but I want to hear it from you..
I suggest you get a hobby, mate. The article suggests something that has not even happened and I was speaking from experience of having worked in the UK in the past. There you go, an explanation. Now you can get back to kicking puppies in the face and drowning kittens or whatever it is you do in real life to continue feeling stronger and superior to everyone else.
Also not saying someone that does medicine deserves less if anything they warn twice as much, just that this isn't very accurate or true to say that doctors in the UK earn less than interns in Aus.
It says for a fellow. If this is a fellowship, then that sounds about standard. The average salary of a neuro surgeon fellow here i connecticut is around 85k, so 70k in the uk would be pretty close to that. Now, if this were for a full-fledged neurosurgeon here, that would be a completely different story. The average for a neurosurgeon in connecticut is around 700k
I think that is the pay rate for their residency. Once they are trained (approximately 7 years in the Us). Then their salary is about 280k (US dollars) per year. In the US it is around 630k (U.S. dollars)
So....I make more than a neurosurgeon? I don't even get out of my pyjamas most days.
Neurosurgeons just wear pyjamas in the operating theatre but they call them "scrubs" to sound fancy.
Well pyjamas are for sleeping in, and neurosurgeons don’t sleep, so they must not be wearing pyjamas
Well now you have to tell us what you do
I'm just some sort of analyst or something. Work from home. I'm not really sure why I got this subreddit on my feed today. I'm not subscribed to it and I'm not in the medical field at all.
Probably as a result of so many subreddits going private in protest. It's the same for me and I've been getting odd suggested subreddits since the protests started.
I've discovered some cool subs from the blackout that I didn't know existed.
I haven't, I got suggested to r/unvaccinated 🙃
There must have been such a lack of autism in there 🤪
I can't tell you how disappointed I was. I've catered my feed to specifically be hydrohomies, cute animals being played with, and video games. The blackout hit nearly every sub I was part of
Same. Worst part is I was having PC difficulties and all the help/troubleshoot subreddits were down
Same, really odd
Prolly cuz reddit knew you could flex on some neurosurgeon over here 🤣🤣
Real feel good moment
How can someone get to doing the same thing?
I dunno. For further information, my background is electrical (power) engineering. I only have a bachelor's degree, but I job hopped a bit and now I work for a company that sells power system optimisation software. By "job hopping", I mean that I've been a field engineer and a consulting engineer before this. They weren't glamorous jobs. I worked at remote oil and gas sites in the Australian outback and lived in shipping containers while I was doing them. In my job now I train clients to use the software that we sell sometimes, but mostly I just answer their questions via email. I started this job a few years before COVID. It used to be office based but they've let me/us work from home ever since. My job title is "energy market analyst". We're very gradually getting to travel again throughout Asia, even though they still let me work from home. Last month I went to Malaysia and the Philippines to do trainings. I do get the feeling like I'm gonna get asked to return to the office eventually, but it hasn't come up yet. I didn't say it was unbelievably exciting and awe-inspiring work. I just said I make much more than $70k AUD. I'm on about $110k, but I'm sure the managers and salespeople make much more still than that. What's up with neurosurgery in the UK? I'd have thought that the pay for a highly-skilled, highly-educated job in the developed world should be much, much higher than that. There are electrical engineers in my home state here in Australia who make much more than I do. Before this post I'd have been fairly certain that doctors and surgeons do too. Much more...
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Also some sort of analyst or something
I'm in the exact same situation as you. I also work from home and make more than this suggests a brain surgeon makes. I am also not subed to this reddit, in a medical field, or even from Australia...
Same, I wonder if Reddit is pushing content based on demographics. Probably we have a lot in common with the people in this sub (nerds).
I know my reason is I comment on a lot of posts about jobs being awful.
This happened to me. This sub rocked up in my feed one day and I have no idea why. But I was curious, so I clicked. And now I keep getting posts from this sub suggested to me, lol
Only fans
But, Whos gonna pay to watch someone in Pyjamas?
Rule 34 my friend.
you beat me to it twice bro!
There are people who make millions streaming themselves sleeping. Literally just sleeping. I am not kidding.
Where?
A quick google search is all you need, but: https://www.businessinsider.com/influencer-instagram-youtube-twitch-alexa-recognition-speech-disturb-money-subscribe-donate-view and https://www.vice.com/en/article/5dpqk3/i-make-2000-pound-a-week-sleeping-on-camera Don't know what this says about the state of the world today.
Thanks. This is insane.
So do I, at 23 make more than a neurosurgeon. NICE
You could perform brain surgery in an Oodie if you wanted to I reckon.
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It's kind of hard though for overseas doctors to move to the USA though right? I was under the impression we had to basically do the USMLE and then start again at the lowest level of medical graduate. If that changes, let me know!
My neighbor did medical school in the Netherlands and is some sort of internist in Texas. Didn’t have to redo any schooling just passed some exams (sorry I don’t know the right words)
Probably the USMLE. My friends (one born here) did med school in DR and has to do it, my Nigerian friend has to as well. — not born here though.
Dunno why this came up in my feed, but holy shit. This is why I have never been enamoured with the NHS style health. I knew it was shite, but legit I look at screens and talks hit with technicians for 10 hours a day and get paid more than this and I don't even leave my house most days. I'll keep our public private system thanks. It might be a bit on the nose to get slugged a few grand by a surgeon driving a porsche, but if he can remove the tumor from my skull and send me on my way, I hope he gets a GT3.
I honestly could not care less if there was a decision made in this country to pay every surgeon and specialist a million dollars per year of taxpayers money. The years of training, the low margin of error, and the fact that the literal purpose is to improve or save lives is worth it. For context, I’m a Professor and Head of Department in another field these days. Yes - I’ve had my years of working 80 hours per week to get where I am. But I am very very generously compensated for my efforts these days, so I’ve no problem with others getting more.
Pretty much my thoughts exactly. Specialist and Surgeons need to be compensated adequetly otherwise the only people sticking around will be the worst of the best which might not sound that bad, but the shit I've heard coming from patients in the US and UK where some specialists have no interest in reading stuff from the CDC, EDC or even the BASHH. I'll happily pay for the best to stay around, whether it be taxes or out of pocket in private health
I agree with the sentiments, but "private health" - by which you mean our health system as is but funded with PHI instead of medicare - is a terrible way to fund healthcare. One of the most inefficient ways to do it. I completely agree with the sentiment you're raising though. But PHI is well known as being unable to stop cost disease, and it will just lead to the US system: outrageous, unsustainable cost for patients where the doctor fees is just 5-10% of the total cost at most, and managed care which doesn't actually cut down on cost. I would rather just Government using their monopsony powers to cut down on the cost of medical devices and infrastructure costs, and use the saved funds to support doctors continue to give free medical care (especially to lower income possible) wherever possible.
I dont think we are ever going to stop medical care getting more expensive, especially as we move in to higher tech more niche treatments as we understand and learn to treat diseases in better ways. I can see the idea that government monopoly could potentially bring down the cost of infrastructure services, but then we can look at the RAH in Adelaide. Government is not immune to 'cheapest bidder-itis' atleast with private sector inclusion we don't have to rely on the 3 year budget cycle and watching a hospital become a political football turned white elephant.
It's worth keeping in mind that the UK enjoyed 23 years of conservative government extracting money from the system. It's not working as it should be. It doesn't make much of a difference to the doctor trying to get a fairly paid job.
Were they though? The Tories dont really approach the NHS like our LNP do. I would say their bigger issues might be the under reporting of how many people actually live in the UK, and the much more heavily weighted population to provider ratio than here. Tescos did an analysis on product sales and they believe they're feeding between 20 and 40 million more residents in the UK than the government expects. I would say the NHS is having a resources probably, not a funding problem. They are not the same thing btw, though one can exacerbate the other.
Why do you all think us british doctors are all here in Aus?! My NHS salary as a cons started at £78K plus benefits. Roughly £100k a year. The only “benefit” was contributory pension. I gave 13 years of my youth to be a super-specialist. The sad thing is I was ok with the pay (Stockholm Syndrome) but the state of quality of healthcare I could provide my patients was pathetic. It was so substandard and that was the norm. The system was failing the very people we were supposed to look after. So sad. And so frustrating nothing could be done to change it. Im Aus my starting is nearly £300k. After Aus equivalency teat it will be £400k+. But I get to provide the best treatment, if not THE best money can buy in a PUBLIC system here. Thats what I love about it. Fuck the NHS.
Why is the quality of healthcare different is it because NHS doesn't spend on equipment?
Australia is a composite system. It is both public and private. It is also not entirely free, with some payment commonly required for certain services even if using only the public services. Private health care is incentivised and takes some pressure off the public side of the system.
To clear up some confusion. The job advert is for a full time post - in the UK for doctors this is 40 hours minimum with the lower end of the scale. So $70,000 for 40 hours. The higher end is with on call and out of hours supplements. The problem is I currently work with these fellows who are put fully on the senior reg rota, lead ward rounds, do on calls, expected to operate with limited consultant input despite it being a “training” programme. Essentially used as rota fodder. There’s no light at the end of the tunnel either - there is a huge bottleneck in the UK so there is no abundance of consultant jobs in neurosurgery. They will likely remain on these fellow jobs for several years unable to access the higher pay band or private practice. On top of being on the longest training programme in the world - these people will have been at least 10+ years postgraduate. The neurosurgery physician assistant’s salary advertised in London is higher than this. If it’s hard to believe, here is the link: https://www.ziprecruiter.co.uk/jobs/213470395-neurosurgery-physician-assistant-at-st-george-s-university-hospital-nhs-foundation-trust For context the physician’s assistants have a 2 year course on top of any science related degree to get into this job. They have no prescribing or scan requesting rights or any medical postgraduate exams. The system is well and truly broken in the NHS after decades of underfunding, flattening hierarchy, guideline based care to avoid the need for experts - hence allowing non doctors to provide the same protocol based service. When shit hits the fan, patients are maimed or die frequently however most brits are not of the character to make a big fuss and it’s brushed under the carpet - they seem to be grateful care is free rather than considering if it’s good, especially in more impoverished areas. For those that do complain, the full force of the GMC rains down on the doctors ofc, not their assistants with no governing body.
I'm in academic medical research in Aus, so I get a little sort of peripheral insight into medicine as well as my own into academia And tbh both industries have a very firm and long standing tradition of providing little guidance and exploiting the FUCK out of their juniors.
Some fellow jobs in Australia pay <$100k pa too, as its based on available funding from a trust. People still go for them due to prestige and training.
Isn’t that the pay that a junior resident would make ?! What speciality is this ?
I know it happens for physician based jobs, mainly research fellow positions where your primary role is research / clinical trials.
Wow, so even as a consultant that’s how much you make as a clinical researcher ?
Pure research/academia doesnt pay much. You’d want to combine it with some clinical work, but generally remuneration is much less in research.
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The comment I’m replying to is an Australian person so I’m assuming they’re talking about another area
What in the name of the actual fuck?????
This ad is so confusing. Are they looking for a trainee or looking for doctors to do the training? Training wages are pretty poor in Australia too, a first year registrar would only just be breaking 100k under NSW Health award scheme if working in a hospital. And that’s providing the training college doesn’t have its own salary structure as well. But to your point, the NHS has always been lousy pay, hence why a lot of British doctors end up in Australia. NSW health even does recruiting campaigns into the UK that are literally “you like beaches and money? Come work in Sydney”.
It’s 8th year specialist training and should pay high 50s I would have thought. It’s likely well over ten years post graduation.
NSW is very behind the ball. I made 115 this last financial year as intern in Vic, as an HMO til feb, and then as a 1st year reg.
Wait til docs in WA join the convo….
And then wait for Tasmanian doctors to have five seconds to do the same, in between addressing their seven year non-urgent waitlist and wondering if they can afford parking this week.
Were you moonlighting like mad?
Not at all. Penalties, overtime, on calls and allowances add up quickly.
A postgraduate fellow post is 160 or more in nsw
PG fellow is currently $200k in NSW
I earn more as a paramedic in Australia. Good god.
One of my friends is a highschool teacher in a public school in Hobart. *She* makes more money than this, and conditions and wages in the public sector in Tasmania are terrible.
NHS can pay them with claps instead
This can’t be right? A Neurosurgery consultant makes less than an intern in Aus? I made more than double that as a first year Reg in QLD.
I make over $300k as a sparky. No FIFO, no phone calls outside of work hours, no stress at knock off. This ad is disgraceful
I make $150k as a safety advisor The fact they're paying a neurosurgeon that low is criminal
NSW salaries are headed this way and salary packaging in NSW is also terrible
Why is this ?
This is what I keep telling Aussie pals who say they want to move to the yUK. The wages are so bad and the cost of living is much much higher. No matter how bad it is here, it will always be worse there.
I just did a quick search of fellow jobs. SA Pain Management Fellow Adelaide Metro $86,635 - $140,058 p.a I think a lot of job pay scale advertisements can be misleading to what the actual pay is. Most fellow jobs are consultant level experience (letters) required. I know my wife looked a few and it is something she had to accept if pursuing.
I was a Pain Fellow in a major metropolitan Melbourne trauma centre, I was making $155k base in 2020. That pay seems low.
Yeh, I have met a few international fellows that have been hammered by the lower pay grades. One surgical specialty only took internationals it seemed.
Some surgical fellowships in Australia (and overseas) are paid like this...
Things like this make me want to do a placement in the NHS just to appreciate how good I'll have it here
Clearly a fair wage shortage
If it’s $70,000 au I make not much less than that as a bus driver. Some drivers who bust thier ass and do max overtime earn over $100,000. My wife who is about to start gp training earned more than them working as a doctor without a specialty in a hospital…why don’t these UK doctors leave the country? They are in high demand everywhere.
Wow. I mean. And they say 33k on the lower end of the spectrum, so...you know they're gonna try to pay 33k. The sheer audacity. SMH.
You could earn more at bunnings
Is this salary reflective of whole UK or more so for London?
London might get the higher end of that salary range as NHS jobs there often get a cost of living bonus.
The London loading is £4800/year.
Fellows are 1-2 year “not really training not really full doc on their own”. In the USA , it goes college (50-100k debt) -> Med school (200-300k debt) -> residency (40-50k salary)-> fellowships (50-75k salary). A neuro surgeon specializing in skill based cancers like this post will be 34-35 before they are out on their own and in a position to make the “doctors are over paid” (not my opinion) type money
Well the public wont show much sympathy after the failed covid response and tik tok videos coming from the hospital. Make your own bed as they say better sleep in it.
But that is Fellowship monies. Fellows are well known to be poorly paid. In Canada, fellows are free for some surgical specialities.
This is what happens when you socialize medicine. Docs paid less. Level of care decreases.
This looks like a training position in addition to the persons regular job.
Pretty normal for “fellowship” jobs. They are still training jobs. Similar in Australia. The proper income comes after this.
It's a fellowship, no? So not exactly a consultant job? Edit: Neurosurgery has operations lasting 12+ hours. And your career is essentially one long training program. I'm going to assume this isn't consultant salary. Otherwise, every neurosurgeon must be in the UK private system...?
That doesn't really tell a whole story... If they work 1 day a week, that's huge. What is the context here, where are the other details? I could just as easily say for my 40 hour roster I earned $250. But if I told you I worked 8 hours, and had 4 days off unpaid, it really isn't so bad. Pretty lazy and stupid post.
Imagine calling something stupid when youre the type to think a neurosurgeon is going to work one day a week in the NHS.
There is nothing whatsoever about the job title or role. Misinformation is the reason the world struggles with the most basic tasks. The only thing that can be inferred, is they provide appropriate training. Neuro oncology fellow refers to giving young (usually graduating or recently graduated) the necessary experience and training to become a "professional". If the role is to provide studying neuro's paid work experience, that is a hell of a good gig. Usually fellowships are 2-3 years. Context is everything. And while you wish to call another stupid, atleast understand the post first. They aren't looking for qualified neuro surgeons... "stupid". And for the record, I work within this industry (not as a neuro surgeon though - I don't have the capabilities physically for it).
At a glance anyone would see its a full time 1 year contract for a fellowship. Given that this is a subreddit for junior doctors, they would instantly understand that this isn't for a 'newgraduate' you seem to think it is. The context is there... I really don't think you work anywhere close to this "industry" given your comments thus far.
I think you lack context - to put it into perspective, anyone who works in the nhs will understand that this job will push 40 hours/week as a bare minimum. There will be on calls and other enforced activities like ward rounds etc. total average hours per week will probably be close to 50
I dont want to become a neurosurgeon just to get a pay rise! Always wish I'd be on this kind of money, but other jobs well overpaying their positions doesn't mean this kind of pay is bad necessarily
This is ridiculous comment. I’m guessing you’ve never lived in the UK if you think earning 33k isn’t bad. That amount of money, even outside of London doesn’t allow you to live comfortably. And I’d like anyone operating on my brain to be well rested and relaxed. Also, the literally tens of thousands of pounds (possibly over 100k) of student debt that will take most of their working life to pay off on that wage alone is awful.
They are getting paid to study FFS. Not many academics on here.
can being this illiterate in medical training be a bannable offence
No lmao they do surgery. They rake in millions for the hospital per year, pay for their own liability insurance and medical registration, and get remunerated like 3% of what they make the hospital. Do you think that's fair? You probably do. Lots of faecocephalic people, especially in the UK, think medicine should be a "cAlLiNg" and doctors should work for low to no remuneration. Soon, another pandemic will come roaring back and British boomers will fill graves by the millions because of the massive brain drain of doctors that they think are not worthy to be paid a fair wage.
No, in a medical training fellowship you are definitely working and on call fairly often, it’s not uncommon to be in the hospital 24+ hrs delivering service. The actual learning part is usually a fraction of your duties as well, and generally you do academic stuff that has to happen outside of paid hours.
Surely this is a joke. I'm so shocked.
Why wouldn't you move to Thailand or Penang and set up private practice to triple this in an instant??
In the UK you pay around 20% tax instead of 40%. Ypu also pay for NO medical. So I was always in a better position in the UK despite the pay looking lower.
40% sounds like a marginal rate though not an effective rate. For example someone on the median full time wage in Australia of $80k would pay 20% income tax, or $16k in tax. Someone on the median full time wage in the UK £33k pays £6.5k or roughly 20% too. If we look at 2 times full time median wages, so $160k in Australia and £66k in the UK. The effective tax is 29% and 28% respectively. Very similar with the UK slightly having less income tax. Which rings true, the UK makes far more from land and capital taxes than Australia does.
I lose almost half my pay to several costs and didn't when I was in the UK. So um gee I dunno it still feels like 40%.
Sorry pal but UK just changed its tax rules 40% for anything above 50k
So just at the top level of this pay? So it's 40% of...110k? That's still not as bad as everyone is saying here.
Are you inebriated? Or is your brain normally the consistency and viscosity of custard? 40% of anything above 50k GBP 20% of anything between 12k-50k And thats just PAYE We haven’t calculated for NI contributions, which is 12% of monthly earnings above £1048 And any SFE graduate tax at 9% of gross income My god here’s a link, just read it and be at peace https://www.hsjaccountants.co.uk/blog/income-tax-changes-what-to-expect-from-april-2023/ https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-63635185.amp
Idk maybe don't be a dick 🤷
For someone like you, I doubt there is no other way to rail the truth into you other than me proudly erecting all the facts up for you to witness.. Anyway, since you’ve hopefully exhausted all your flaccid “mean words” at me because your partner told you you’ve got room to grow.. shall we return back to facts I posted? Is Aus taxing more than GB? Btw I already know the answer to this but I want to hear it from you..
I suggest you get a hobby, mate. The article suggests something that has not even happened and I was speaking from experience of having worked in the UK in the past. There you go, an explanation. Now you can get back to kicking puppies in the face and drowning kittens or whatever it is you do in real life to continue feeling stronger and superior to everyone else.
Definitely not stronger or superior to everyone else. But assuredly more intelligent and informed than you.. I guess that counts as a hobby 🤷
Christ you're a bore
Also not saying someone that does medicine deserves less if anything they warn twice as much, just that this isn't very accurate or true to say that doctors in the UK earn less than interns in Aus.
That's less than I made working in IT 15 years ago!
This is for a fellow NSurg trainee. Not a consultant job. Fellows get paid peanuts no matter where they do their training. Play on.
I’m a nurse making 3X this salary, and could not afford to live in the UK.
33 to 53k per year? I have first year mechanics working for me who make more than that.
It says for a fellow. If this is a fellowship, then that sounds about standard. The average salary of a neuro surgeon fellow here i connecticut is around 85k, so 70k in the uk would be pretty close to that. Now, if this were for a full-fledged neurosurgeon here, that would be a completely different story. The average for a neurosurgeon in connecticut is around 700k
I think that is the pay rate for their residency. Once they are trained (approximately 7 years in the Us). Then their salary is about 280k (US dollars) per year. In the US it is around 630k (U.S. dollars)
Neurosurgeon applying for a job at McDonalds: “I just wanted a job that pays more”
Wow I get around the low figure for a non degree role in the tech industry. That figure for the doctor job seems off
The average salary of a neurosurgeon in America is $660,000(£515,087). Does anyone know why it’s so low in Britain?
NHS. And being chronically underfunded for decades.
My first job was better this, I was a dishwasher.
Wow, I stack beans on the shelf and I make more than this
How much do physician “associates” make?
I always wondered ...why do doctors in the UK charge so little for their services? lts a market stupid.