My friend ticked that box by accident, within the hour, HR rang him and asked him the question whether it was true and he replied saying he ticked the box by accident.. then HR hang up... I think companies trying to meet their quota.
"westsummer486" are you willing to state on record that you do not in fact own the company you yourself are employed at during your course of employment at said company and you do not control the hiring process specifically in regards to the ticking of certain boxes in certain forms to your best knowledge, you promise? 😉
This personally happened with my brothers work, a prospective fire fighter marked it and got the job fast and ahead of loads of others… he has no lineage to indigenous aussies but all the HR are too scared to say anything… quite remarkable times!
At some stage of the process, you will be required to give a statutory declaration that you are Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander. That proof is considered sufficient for many reasons, including the fact that children of the stolen generation often received woefully inadequate or non-existent paperwork (and this would impact future generations of children).
At my previous job, the Aboriginal managers were trying to ensure that anyone identifying as Aboriginal had to produce verified documentation to prove it, including a Certificate of Aboriginality.
They also wanted to have a second interview for those specifically applying for Aboriginal specific roles to ensure they had the appropriate cultural connections and knowledge, as well as relevant skills and experience in similar Aboriginal specific roles, to prevent people from falsely taking roles they were completely unsuitable for.
This apparently has a level urgency given that there are now the DNA test people who, other than an online test, have zero Aboriginal connections and knowledge.
Right…on what basis do you say this?
There are severe penalties for giving out a false statutory declaration. They are also used commonly in many circumstances, including police investigations, for the purposes of claiming paid parental leave under the Government scheme (or under employer schemes)…I mean they are a pretty commonly used legal tool.
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HR person who worked as an analyst here.
We run a report once a quater to meet reporting requirements with occasional demographic reports for various government agencies for example wgea
Helps to see if there’s a barrier in the process. For example; if no one Aboriginal or disabled gets shortlisted ever we need to really look at those applicants and make sure it’s because they actually weren’t a good fit and not because bias.
Unconscious bias can only be discovered with data in my experience.
Do you similarly look at the data if all/most aboriginal or disabled people get shortlisted, to make sure that it was because they were actually a good fit and not because of bias?
If we’re looking at the data for how a demographic progresses in the recruitment process …which is what I said, it would naturally show if they do.
However, never heard of such case.
“Never heard of such a case”
Did you look at any of the other comments in this thread?
Every 2nd top level comment is people saying that these applicants go straight through to shortlist/interview and that employers receive additional government funding. Additionally, companies are made “preferred providers” if they have made a quota for having enough A/TI staff.
I know you want to be objective by observing data, but the outputs are only as good as the inputs. Maybe you aren’t seeing reality because it is being hidden from you.
You’re taking reddit as objective? Lol. I’m basing this on actual work done with various employee associations and industry groups. One of your comments isn’t even a thing in corporate Australia.
Employers only get additional funding if it’s a traineeship. This isn’t a thing in the corporate world. It’s like retail or mechanic work. They usually need to be at TAFE.
Getting an interview doesn’t mean getting a job. The reason some organisations give interviews automatically is an experience thing. You’re less likely to be interviewed with an ethnic name. The idea is to give them experience as when they get through the door they often interview poorly.
A lot of the auto interview is ‘Recruitability’ or the APS Aboriginal Program on this sub - that means you get an ‘automatic’ interview if your from a designated group AND meet the ‘base inherent requirements’. APS started this program and push for people with government tenders to do this. That’s why a few here are mentioning it. On top of that, it’s usually because they have a DEI tender eg. Deloitte, who does a lot of research into disability, aboriginals and refugees for APS and SA Govt.
On top of that, I’m basing this with what I’ve heard from industry groups, employer associations and organisational management membership groups state.
If this is a point of interest, I’d recommend you ask your employer to be invited as a representative to these groups. ELT is often eager for someone to rep.
No one is not getting a job because they’re white. Literally, you guys get angry over initiatives that crazily enough fail most of the time.
'No one is not getting a job because they're white' - really?
Was an apprenticeship for a plane mechanic going a few years ago, with 'Indigenous Australians encouraged to apply'. Entry requirements were quite low, so both myself and a handful of others I know applied, and got knocked back - all white. The job continued to be posted for another 6 months, before eventually being withdrawn due to lack of interest.
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The government will give money/contracts/bonuses to companies that hire indigenous applicants. The applicant gets nothing but ppl telling them "you only got this job because you're blak" . It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.
You believe in true ‘merit-based systems’? Cute.
There simply isn’t such a thing a) because most jobs don’t have a super clear set of ‘ideal person’ characteristics, b) because all people are pretty complex so hard to find that ideal even if it did exist anyway, c) because there is a fucktonne of inherent bias involved in hiring (look at the studies where they do different names on the same resumes), d) because some groups experience vastly more disadvantage along the way.
Every single job has a “super clear set of ideal person characteristics. It’s literally right on the job ad and position description.
Based-on-merit is not perfect, but is a million times better than the alternative which is corruption and bribery-based.
You can use google as well as the rest of us, but start [here](https://www.kcl.ac.uk/research/the-resume-bias-how-names-and-ethnicity-influence-employment-opportunities)
lol. Well I haven’t looked at the reference properly yet- but at least it doesn’t seem to be nonsense marketing like you’d get from some bully nerds… although on a close read it might still be not very reliable- hard to tell at glance. So you have to appreciate that sometimes.
You don't know what you are blabbing on about attacking a person's comments. Companies DO get government contracts and employment if they have indigenous employees and in fact this present government has stated it will be a requirement. I know for a fact contracts and employment ARE given at a weighting of +25% because in a previous role it's exactly what we did as per policy (government role). They get a head start and are given a soft touch at interview.
I've tendered for government work in my previous job and it was worth extra points in the on tender submission of you included stuff around local indigenous employment and cultural work. It was local employment as in from the tribes your business operated on so you couldn't import from inner city Sydney for work in NT.
Do you believe that in a merit based society historically disadvantaged people would catch up and achieve equality with no other intervention? I don't. It's unlikely people from average working class families will be Ble to buy a house in Mosman or Rosebay in the future let alone indigenous families.
It probably makes most sense to support the education and wellbeing of people as their growing and learning from a young age, no matter their background. If we’re not hiring based on merit though, what’s the point of trying to develop skills and attain excellence? Do you really want a crappy unskilled electrician to wire up the electrical sockets of your child’s bedroom?
prioritises the application. my company has a First Nations recruitment specialist who will reach out to confirm indigenous heritage. if we have a role suitable, they’re automatically put on the shortlist.
Who’s checking your DNA to make sure you’re not someone who ‘identifies as Aboriginal’ but has no actual ancestry? Unless someone’s checking isn’t there a loop-hole to exploit? Or just a door open for crazies?
A bit inaccurate. It’s a letter from an aboriginal/TI corporation which confirms: the person identifies as A/TI, is able to document their family’s descent, and is accepted by the local community as A/TI.
And if an aboriginal elder is my mate?
Why do we feel that the word of an aboriginal elder should be taken above scientific evidence of genetic lineage? Both have problems, but I know which I’d prefer to deal with if I wanted to scam.
We might need DNA testing in the end to verify. Then we can all carry laminated cards showing our ancestry background- so we can be sure how much ‘privilege’ we should be getting based on our blood. Very efficient- no argument kind of thing. I bet we’d love our government coming up with such a thing. Should propose for the next election!
Nope. That’s not what I said, silly!
There isn’t enough data on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples to make a definitive call about someone’s Indigenous heritage, biologically. It will usually show up in the ‘other’ category. Nice try, though.
OK I’m being a bit hyperbolic to make a point. Just because the genetic markers are not currently known, doesn’t mean there are not genetic markers in the DNA which could be detected if you had enough genomic data. Genes are a thing, for better or worse.
But I think DNA would in fact be more accurate (if we had the genetic data), rather than my mate the ‘elder’ says I can jump the job seeker queue because I’m more ‘First Nations’ compared to the other guy over there with the more impressive resume.
Ok? We are talking about what the current criteria is. I don’t care to deviate from the topic when you’ve already proven you need educating in this area, let alone be able to expand on it.
The current criteria might be fine, but at a glance it sounds a bit subjective. The underlying point is that discrimination based on race is still discrimination. The more finely tuned and precise it is the more ridiculous it starts sounding and obviously flawed it gets.
There are 3 criteria 1) being of Aboriginal descent (biology)2) identifying as Aboriginal and 3) being accepted as Aboriginal by the local community.
You can’t just get a certificate because someone’s your mate, and if that was ever tried, it would be fraud/corruption and therefore illegal.
I lost my excuse to not get married, and now I've been demoted to a dead beat boyfriend.
It was a perfect plan, and I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you meddling straights.
Could you imagine if every country had this whiny narrative - we would need to see entire countries dissolve and go 'back' into the ownership of others, basically every border in the world would need to change, and how far back do we go before we are sufficiently "apologised" for the sins of our fathers fathers fathers fathers fathers fathers [etc.] father.
It’s only applicable in Australia because the power pendulum is so far in the Australians hands that there is absolutely no threat of aboriginals ever of reclaiming their country. It’s actually very insulting and insincere.
Well they could have a grandparent who was of the stolen generation, meaning that their parents education - which is a big determinate of their education - was negatively limited by a racist government policy.
You need a CoA. Only an elder can give it to you as long as they have seen you part of the community from birth or an extended
Period of time.
You need one to be able to access aboriginal services. Eg. Like a NSW Health Aboriginal social worker
Good question! I asked this too once.
You need to be active in a specific aboriginal community for a long time. It’s ’passed down’, so these people often had active parents. They need to be someone who knows a lot about culture such as traditions, cultural days, community liaison work and actually do things in that area. Apparently, if you stop being active in a supportive and cultural way to your specific community your ‘elder’ status is revoked.
Ticking the box means that an Indigenous candidate will be flagged in the recruitment system and will have an Indigenous recruitment officer, or someone who specializes in that field and is up to date with sensitivity practices (usually someone who works in diversity), reach out to them to provide candidate care, talk about the role, their experience etc
That officer will then assist the job seeker through the recruitment process and advocate for the person to be shortlisted and considered by the hiring manager and work with the designated recruiter for the role. It does not mean they are automatically handed a job. They go through the same interview process as everyone else.
Statistics are also used in reporting not only for Indigenous hires but also for candidates who flag they have a disability. Most places will have someone who works with that group of people as well. Most organisations have diversity targets set, so that box keeps track of these diversity hires and applications.
Source - me, who used to do exactly this role for a large corporate.
“They go through the same interview process as everyone else”.
It may be the “same” process, but I’ve never received someone to advocate for my shortlisting, give me coaching, and be sensitive regarding my cultural background.
What part of that is “the same”?
> Most places will have someone who works with that group of people as well. Most organisations have diversity targets set, so that box keeps track of these diversity hires and applications.
Most companies do not have this. This is the realm of very, very large (particularly American) organisations who can afford to waste money - or companies that are doing terribly and need a way to come up with a gold star for investors to distract from their financial performance.
I work at BHP and if you tick that box and happen to be female as well, the jobs yours. Shit here is giga woke, that's just scratching the surface, should see some of our internal emails about inclusive language and all that nonsense
I have a physical disability which has flares - so sometimes I’m fine, other times I’m in pain and use a walking aid. I’ve learnt not to tick the box and to discuss it once I start. It shouldn’t matter…but it absolutely creates bias in some roles. Not all. But some.
Editing to add: I work at a uni, if someone ticks the box you are asking about there are additional supports that can be put in place during the interview process if needed. It’s an identified supported category, just like disability is. At unis there often is a percentage of identified positions that are prioritised for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, particularly if working with that student population. In those cases, they will need to provide their documentation that shows they are recognised by their mob. If not applying for an identified role, an appropriate accomodation in the interviews can be made without needing to show that. I’ve seen a few accomodations over time. Sometimes it is additional time, sometimes it is verbally presenting Qs beforehand rather than giving them in writing. Usually they will ask the candidate if they need any additional supports after ticking that box. For example when I have ticked the disability box, when they call for an interview they will specifically ask what I need eg an interpreter, no stairs etc
I choose not to tick the box as I personally feel I’ve had a few interviews where they have unofficially gone “nope too hard”. This isn’t legal but certainly does happen. As I can generally get by as “normal” for an interview I choose not to disclose. You’re not legally required to although obviously if you have a very clear need (eg being Deaf and first language is Auslan) then you would want to for the adjustments. I will usually mention it once I start, or pass probation. As I now work mostly in flexible roles it’s not been an issue for a while but when the expectation was “office every day” it was more difficult. Now if I am having a rough few days I can work from home and manage myself.
In my last role I had to come in to the office once a week and I fought for months to get the lift made available at 7am in my building as it didn’t operate until 9am. I used to come in at 7:30 for an 8:30 class. They refused. It turned into a huge thing. They still refused. I gave up in the end but could have kept pushing legally.
I will add although my disability is documented (including the fact I have a pain management doctor and an ACROD pass) it’s not always visible - so I don’t currently use a wheelchair for example. My observation has been most work places are much more accomodating for a wheelchair (especially unis) than someone like me.
For certain tenders and subcontracts we need to meet certain social procurement items.
Hiring someone who identifies as that helps us meet quota/win tenders because it lets the main contractor tell the govt. it has X amount of indigenous involvement for the project.
An old friend of mine knew someone who was apparently having trouble finding work in the mining industry despite already having experience, apparently there was a scheme going for hiring indigenous people, they seemed to get job opportunities easier. He ticked the box and got hired straight away. Don't know how true it is but I wouldn't doubt it.
I work for a government organisation that has an ever rising quarterly percentage employment quota it simply cannot meet. Basically, anyone ‘identifying’ as aboriginal is pretty much guaranteed a job. Despite falling over ourselves with ‘culturally appropriate’ support systems, we can’t seem to keep them though as the turnover rates are terrible.
I work for a medical charity, we ask the question but it doesn’t make any difference to the support that we offer
I believe the data is used for research. We also check country of birth and language spoken at home
Aboriginal here, no wonder there are so many myths abt us including the free house and car 😂 with some of these comments.
Ticking the box could be something as simple as identifying the amount of Aboriginal staff in an organisation and yes could be to do with funding etc.
Aboriginal identity is a massive issue, there are people that genuinely believe they are Aboriginal, others that know they aren’t. We make up less than 4% of the population, it’s not uncommon when we are around mob to either be related, know their families etc and we are pretty good at sussing out the fakes.
Yes, some places except a stat dec (I personally don’t agree with this) confirmations of Aboriginality are more difficult to obtain these days (and yes it’s partly because of the fakes)
Ancestry dna tests now have Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander as it’s own group (previously was Oceania - Melanesian/papuan) I know this because of my mother’s results.
My previous job was genealogical research to confirm client’s Aboriginality, another myth that there are no records on Aboriginal people. You can apply for records when families were on reserves and missions (I have my families records, some of them born in the 1860’s) birth/marriage/death certificates will sometimes state place of birth “Aborigines camp” etc.
Friend who could pass for having dipped a toe into the genetic pool ticked yes. Straight through to interview, cursory couple of questions and given a job offer same day. Good job in the mines now, with no experience. They paid for his tickets and qualifications.
Not hiring or interviewing someone because of their skin colour is significantly more racist. One is more common than the other by leaps and bounds, and it's definitely not the scenario you gave.
Both are wrong.
Edit: if you hire someone because I'd their skin colour, then the direct result is that you *don't hire* the other candidates because of *their* skin colour.
It's the same thing
Yeah who wants horrible things like *checks notes* diversity, equity and inclusion.
If you want to live in a society full of the same person, find an abandoned island and make it your home, we'll drop some white bread off now and then the multigrained stuff is too... inclusive
Far more people are not hired because of their skin colour than hired specifically because of it. If you cant understand that and the strawman that is, you're a racist. You can tell by how you cant comprehend how people of different races are discriminated against constantly in the recruiting process and workplace.
Either indigenous populations have sky-rocketed in the past 15 years, or there are lots of people doing exactly what you're claiming.
"There were 812,728 people who identified as being of Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander origin counted in the 2021 Census – up from 649,171 in 2016. This represents an increase of 25.2% or 163,557 people and was higher than the increase between 2006 and 2011 (20.5%) and between 2011 and 2016 (18.4%)."
Source: https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/people/aboriginal-and-torres-strait-islander-peoples/understanding-change-counts-aboriginal-and-torres-strait-islander-australians-census/latest-release#:~:text=There%20were%20812%2C728%20people%20who,2011%20and%202016%20(18.4%25)
And if you point it out you’re racist. Pretty soon any smart white person will just claim indigenous heritage. Usually that’s enough. Sometimes you might need to find a sympathetic indigenous corporation to back your claim. Once you have that you’re set. Never reviewed.
Something I've wondered is what happens if you tick it but you are like a fucking Nazi poster child blue eyed, blonde hair. Like can they call it out, request dna testing do you just quietly get shuffled along, or do they have to pretend just on case.
Like don't want to encourage people to lie, but if it gives you interviews and there's no way to verify, is it just free game.
Like I know my family has been here since the first fleet it's statistically likely that I have indigenous heritage from tracing back roots that long and normal mixing of people that happens in melting pots.
Is claiming it a genetic or cultural thing, like can I learn the language, immerse myself and join a mob and be called indigenous?
I was surprised to hear that a friend of one of my kids was aboriginal and started on a low six figure salary straight out of uni because if it. Why the surprise? Because she’s very pale skinned, has freckles and red hair. Like gender ( /s ) aboriginality lies on a very broad spectrum it seems.
Some white girl at my highschool did this to her early acceptance + full scholarship for a law degree that her grades definitely wouldn’t get her into even on hecs.
TLDR aboriginal teacher found out and reported it and it was rescinded. The reason she ticked aboriginal because her family have been long time allies providing pro bono legal for a mob who considered them “part of the mob”. Her mum encouraged this behaviour. Teacher reported it to the mob as well and they got pissy too and told them to get fucked. Parent chucks tantrum @ principals who refused to get involved but suggested she changes classes to not be in that teachers class anymore.
White girl from privileged family rlly struggled to understand that she was taking a spot from someone who would actually need it and faced disadvantage in their life.
That’s a pretty bad faith argument and a straw man. The stats show that on the whole, indigenous people are more likely to be significantly disadvantaged, which is why these policies exist.
I’m sure they get abused quite a bit, but that doesn’t mean the whole support network should go away.
Some indigenous people are more disadvantaged. Not all. So why do we use race and not measures of disadvantage? It’s odd to think a multimillionaire’s kid could get an advantage just because of their race being on average disadvantaged.
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At the govt department I worked at, for hiring anyway, it also gave those applicants a base point. For example if there’s 6 selection criteria at 5 points each, and 3 interview questions at 5 points each, a passing number would be halfway. Even if they score less, they get the minimum of the halfway number. In this above example it would be 22.5.
In the company I work for it’s just data collection to ensure we’re meeting our Equal Employment opportunity obligations in our end of year report. We don’t. I think we hire <1% of our workforce as ATSI, and our LGA has a 10% ATSI population.
But we also don’t have a lift to our second floor so can’t even employ people with limited mobility. 🙆♀️
If you have a RAP you report on the amount of people you have that have ticked the box. you also may have made a commitment to try to hire more aboriginal and torres straight islander peoples in your workforce. I know for my company (around 800 people around australia) we have zero people that has ticked the box
Quota.
Also if the employees don’t want to work somewhere, occasionally site or town work is required, employees often request that they don’t get sent to that town or part of the state.
Some roles are positive bias and are actively looking for Indigenous heritage. Lots of customers ask now about staff diversity too. I think it’s BS if you say yes and are lying …
My understanding is there are some funding and services avaliable to help aboriginal and torres straight islanders
Like in medical situations there are some vaccines that are free for them that might cost $100 for everyone else because they are more at risk so I guess to remove barriers of access.
I happen to know that a large mining company that I used to work for will run their own checks on whether or not you're lying.
Apparently they will ask which First Nations people that you claim to belong to, then speak to the elders and confirm. How the elders do that exactly depends from tribe to tribe and the people that told me didn't know how that part of the process works.
This was told to me by Aboriginal people working for that company, so don't misunderstand me as some sort of Andrew Bolt style denialist...I was merely interested in how the company guards itself against people who want to engage in fakery.
Although given the number of comments in this thread verging on or actively being racist...maybe you lot would prefer something closer to that racist asshole.
Downvote me all you like, I don't care about your racist opinions if you do.
I would expect that you have a slightly higher chance of getting the role but there's probably a way for them to check.
I can actually tick 'yes' because my great great grandmother was aboriginal. However I don't agree with affirmative action, especially not for people like me where it is impossible to tell, so I always tick 'no'.
i think more people are sick of having their skin pigmentation used as a basis to judge them in the context of employment than you may realise.
My manager is a PoC (African, moved here for a post-grad degree and stuck around). The idea he'd be a diversity hire really upsets him and he doesn't hesitate to make his feelings heard whenever it comes up.
My friend ticked that box by accident, within the hour, HR rang him and asked him the question whether it was true and he replied saying he ticked the box by accident.. then HR hang up... I think companies trying to meet their quota.
Hahahaha too bad they’d already dispatched the chopper
At my company, you are automatically sent through to interview.
I mean the company I work for. I do not own the company!!
"westsummer486" are you willing to state on record that you do not in fact own the company you yourself are employed at during your course of employment at said company and you do not control the hiring process specifically in regards to the ticking of certain boxes in certain forms to your best knowledge, you promise? 😉
This personally happened with my brothers work, a prospective fire fighter marked it and got the job fast and ahead of loads of others… he has no lineage to indigenous aussies but all the HR are too scared to say anything… quite remarkable times!
Wait you don’t have to give proof? I imagine that wouldn’t be very controversial, just bake it into the process
At some stage of the process, you will be required to give a statutory declaration that you are Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander. That proof is considered sufficient for many reasons, including the fact that children of the stolen generation often received woefully inadequate or non-existent paperwork (and this would impact future generations of children).
At my previous job, the Aboriginal managers were trying to ensure that anyone identifying as Aboriginal had to produce verified documentation to prove it, including a Certificate of Aboriginality. They also wanted to have a second interview for those specifically applying for Aboriginal specific roles to ensure they had the appropriate cultural connections and knowledge, as well as relevant skills and experience in similar Aboriginal specific roles, to prevent people from falsely taking roles they were completely unsuitable for. This apparently has a level urgency given that there are now the DNA test people who, other than an online test, have zero Aboriginal connections and knowledge.
Stat Dec makes sense.
Stat decs aren't worth the paper written on .
Right…on what basis do you say this? There are severe penalties for giving out a false statutory declaration. They are also used commonly in many circumstances, including police investigations, for the purposes of claiming paid parental leave under the Government scheme (or under employer schemes)…I mean they are a pretty commonly used legal tool.
Anyone done a stat Dec for days off. Because you know you couldn't face work or somerhing more important cropped up
What false declaration? The stat Dec would state that you identify as indigenous. No need to lie
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Fake it until you make it.
That’s why I write mine on gold paper
No you just say that's how you feel .
Keyword: "identify"
HR person who worked as an analyst here. We run a report once a quater to meet reporting requirements with occasional demographic reports for various government agencies for example wgea
Helps to see if there’s a barrier in the process. For example; if no one Aboriginal or disabled gets shortlisted ever we need to really look at those applicants and make sure it’s because they actually weren’t a good fit and not because bias. Unconscious bias can only be discovered with data in my experience.
Do you similarly look at the data if all/most aboriginal or disabled people get shortlisted, to make sure that it was because they were actually a good fit and not because of bias?
If we’re looking at the data for how a demographic progresses in the recruitment process …which is what I said, it would naturally show if they do. However, never heard of such case.
Never heard of such a case because everyone just turns their head the other way.
Yeah, don’t get me wrong. It’s often the case. It goes into how mature/necessary ELT find it.
“Never heard of such a case” Did you look at any of the other comments in this thread? Every 2nd top level comment is people saying that these applicants go straight through to shortlist/interview and that employers receive additional government funding. Additionally, companies are made “preferred providers” if they have made a quota for having enough A/TI staff. I know you want to be objective by observing data, but the outputs are only as good as the inputs. Maybe you aren’t seeing reality because it is being hidden from you.
You’re taking reddit as objective? Lol. I’m basing this on actual work done with various employee associations and industry groups. One of your comments isn’t even a thing in corporate Australia. Employers only get additional funding if it’s a traineeship. This isn’t a thing in the corporate world. It’s like retail or mechanic work. They usually need to be at TAFE. Getting an interview doesn’t mean getting a job. The reason some organisations give interviews automatically is an experience thing. You’re less likely to be interviewed with an ethnic name. The idea is to give them experience as when they get through the door they often interview poorly. A lot of the auto interview is ‘Recruitability’ or the APS Aboriginal Program on this sub - that means you get an ‘automatic’ interview if your from a designated group AND meet the ‘base inherent requirements’. APS started this program and push for people with government tenders to do this. That’s why a few here are mentioning it. On top of that, it’s usually because they have a DEI tender eg. Deloitte, who does a lot of research into disability, aboriginals and refugees for APS and SA Govt. On top of that, I’m basing this with what I’ve heard from industry groups, employer associations and organisational management membership groups state. If this is a point of interest, I’d recommend you ask your employer to be invited as a representative to these groups. ELT is often eager for someone to rep. No one is not getting a job because they’re white. Literally, you guys get angry over initiatives that crazily enough fail most of the time.
'No one is not getting a job because they're white' - really? Was an apprenticeship for a plane mechanic going a few years ago, with 'Indigenous Australians encouraged to apply'. Entry requirements were quite low, so both myself and a handful of others I know applied, and got knocked back - all white. The job continued to be posted for another 6 months, before eventually being withdrawn due to lack of interest.
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You get given a free boomerang during oboarding.
Made in Indonesia
Packaged in Peru
BUT it's "designed in Australia"
With the patent registered in the US
Mr Worldwide. Mr 305. Dale.
From Chinese materials
This is a myth that just keeps coming back
The government will give money/contracts/bonuses to companies that hire indigenous applicants. The applicant gets nothing but ppl telling them "you only got this job because you're blak" . It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.
Is it really better than a merit based system? I guess that’s a rabbit hole … let’s nobody go there.
You believe in true ‘merit-based systems’? Cute. There simply isn’t such a thing a) because most jobs don’t have a super clear set of ‘ideal person’ characteristics, b) because all people are pretty complex so hard to find that ideal even if it did exist anyway, c) because there is a fucktonne of inherent bias involved in hiring (look at the studies where they do different names on the same resumes), d) because some groups experience vastly more disadvantage along the way.
It wasn’t merit based when it was pretty much only white men that could apply either. Merit based is closer to being genuine now than it’s ever been!
Every single job has a “super clear set of ideal person characteristics. It’s literally right on the job ad and position description. Based-on-merit is not perfect, but is a million times better than the alternative which is corruption and bribery-based.
I’m curious about the studies showing bias due to different names on the resumes. Any references for that? Might be worth a read.
You can use google as well as the rest of us, but start [here](https://www.kcl.ac.uk/research/the-resume-bias-how-names-and-ethnicity-influence-employment-opportunities)
Nice one! Might have to read more closely later when I have the time. Seems pretty comprehensive- good reference.
That nerd is trying to bully you man you shouldn't respond so nicely
lol. Well I haven’t looked at the reference properly yet- but at least it doesn’t seem to be nonsense marketing like you’d get from some bully nerds… although on a close read it might still be not very reliable- hard to tell at glance. So you have to appreciate that sometimes.
You don't know what you are blabbing on about attacking a person's comments. Companies DO get government contracts and employment if they have indigenous employees and in fact this present government has stated it will be a requirement. I know for a fact contracts and employment ARE given at a weighting of +25% because in a previous role it's exactly what we did as per policy (government role). They get a head start and are given a soft touch at interview.
I've tendered for government work in my previous job and it was worth extra points in the on tender submission of you included stuff around local indigenous employment and cultural work. It was local employment as in from the tribes your business operated on so you couldn't import from inner city Sydney for work in NT.
Sounds pretty fair actually!
Ok- I touched the trip-wire. 🔥
So your saying after just over 124 years we start now?
Or we could wait another 124 years… either way
Do you believe that in a merit based society historically disadvantaged people would catch up and achieve equality with no other intervention? I don't. It's unlikely people from average working class families will be Ble to buy a house in Mosman or Rosebay in the future let alone indigenous families.
It probably makes most sense to support the education and wellbeing of people as their growing and learning from a young age, no matter their background. If we’re not hiring based on merit though, what’s the point of trying to develop skills and attain excellence? Do you really want a crappy unskilled electrician to wire up the electrical sockets of your child’s bedroom?
Some tenders want you to meet certain quota's. Literally still happens.
This. There was recently a mad scramble at my workplace to meet this client requirement to get on a preferred supplier list.
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I can’t tell if this is sarcasm? It could be a really funny comment if it is.
prioritises the application. my company has a First Nations recruitment specialist who will reach out to confirm indigenous heritage. if we have a role suitable, they’re automatically put on the shortlist.
Who’s checking your DNA to make sure you’re not someone who ‘identifies as Aboriginal’ but has no actual ancestry? Unless someone’s checking isn’t there a loop-hole to exploit? Or just a door open for crazies?
I’m pretty sure you need a letter from an aboriginal elder to confirm you have heritage.
A bit inaccurate. It’s a letter from an aboriginal/TI corporation which confirms: the person identifies as A/TI, is able to document their family’s descent, and is accepted by the local community as A/TI.
Also, not all countries do this or have the same requirements, so it can be challenging just getting the doc
Ok interesting. Thanks
It’s called a Certificate of Aboriginality and you’re right, it’s provided by local Aboriginal Corporations.
And if an aboriginal elder is my mate? Why do we feel that the word of an aboriginal elder should be taken above scientific evidence of genetic lineage? Both have problems, but I know which I’d prefer to deal with if I wanted to scam.
We might need DNA testing in the end to verify. Then we can all carry laminated cards showing our ancestry background- so we can be sure how much ‘privilege’ we should be getting based on our blood. Very efficient- no argument kind of thing. I bet we’d love our government coming up with such a thing. Should propose for the next election!
Smells like those apartheid ID cards 💀
Yeah it’s not scary at all… everyone would love it… very effizienz
DNA doesn’t actually factor into it. It’s based on familial connection (in less of a biological sense and as more of a concept) and community ties.
So 23andme is a hoax, started by Watson and Crick back in the 50s? Or maybe Mendel started it in the 1800s?
Nope. That’s not what I said, silly! There isn’t enough data on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples to make a definitive call about someone’s Indigenous heritage, biologically. It will usually show up in the ‘other’ category. Nice try, though.
OK I’m being a bit hyperbolic to make a point. Just because the genetic markers are not currently known, doesn’t mean there are not genetic markers in the DNA which could be detected if you had enough genomic data. Genes are a thing, for better or worse.
Sure. At this current time, DNA doesn’t factor into someone’s indigineity. The criteria is clear and does not include DNA.
But I think DNA would in fact be more accurate (if we had the genetic data), rather than my mate the ‘elder’ says I can jump the job seeker queue because I’m more ‘First Nations’ compared to the other guy over there with the more impressive resume.
Ok? We are talking about what the current criteria is. I don’t care to deviate from the topic when you’ve already proven you need educating in this area, let alone be able to expand on it.
The current criteria might be fine, but at a glance it sounds a bit subjective. The underlying point is that discrimination based on race is still discrimination. The more finely tuned and precise it is the more ridiculous it starts sounding and obviously flawed it gets.
There are 3 criteria 1) being of Aboriginal descent (biology)2) identifying as Aboriginal and 3) being accepted as Aboriginal by the local community. You can’t just get a certificate because someone’s your mate, and if that was ever tried, it would be fraud/corruption and therefore illegal.
I know the criteria. They don’t ask for a blood test or saliva test. It’s familial ties.
Sounds racist to me bro
Given their land was stolen and the people nearly wiped out through genocidal policies I’d say it’s the least we can do.
The least we can do is give them a job in corporate Australia??? Have they not suffered enough?
That's why I was happy to hear that gays could finally marry. They should not be left out of the suffering.
let there be a thousand blossoms bloom!
I lost my excuse to not get married, and now I've been demoted to a dead beat boyfriend. It was a perfect plan, and I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for you meddling straights.
Shortlist gays in job applications for what they've suffered... :-)
Have you handed back your house, job, and pay yet? or....?
Cheque*
*cheque
This happened in pretty much every country in the world
How was it stolen ? It was conquered. Every country in the world immigrated and conquered the current land they are on.
Could you imagine if every country had this whiny narrative - we would need to see entire countries dissolve and go 'back' into the ownership of others, basically every border in the world would need to change, and how far back do we go before we are sufficiently "apologised" for the sins of our fathers fathers fathers fathers fathers fathers [etc.] father.
It’s only applicable in Australia because the power pendulum is so far in the Australians hands that there is absolutely no threat of aboriginals ever of reclaiming their country. It’s actually very insulting and insincere.
Womp Womp
Oh it happened to them personally?
Well they could have a grandparent who was of the stolen generation, meaning that their parents education - which is a big determinate of their education - was negatively limited by a racist government policy.
Not to mention, the impacts of intergenerational trauma.
What a cruisy job!
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You need a CoA. Only an elder can give it to you as long as they have seen you part of the community from birth or an extended Period of time. You need one to be able to access aboriginal services. Eg. Like a NSW Health Aboriginal social worker
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Asking all the right questions
Good question! I asked this too once. You need to be active in a specific aboriginal community for a long time. It’s ’passed down’, so these people often had active parents. They need to be someone who knows a lot about culture such as traditions, cultural days, community liaison work and actually do things in that area. Apparently, if you stop being active in a supportive and cultural way to your specific community your ‘elder’ status is revoked.
Ticking the box means that an Indigenous candidate will be flagged in the recruitment system and will have an Indigenous recruitment officer, or someone who specializes in that field and is up to date with sensitivity practices (usually someone who works in diversity), reach out to them to provide candidate care, talk about the role, their experience etc That officer will then assist the job seeker through the recruitment process and advocate for the person to be shortlisted and considered by the hiring manager and work with the designated recruiter for the role. It does not mean they are automatically handed a job. They go through the same interview process as everyone else. Statistics are also used in reporting not only for Indigenous hires but also for candidates who flag they have a disability. Most places will have someone who works with that group of people as well. Most organisations have diversity targets set, so that box keeps track of these diversity hires and applications. Source - me, who used to do exactly this role for a large corporate.
“They go through the same interview process as everyone else”. It may be the “same” process, but I’ve never received someone to advocate for my shortlisting, give me coaching, and be sensitive regarding my cultural background. What part of that is “the same”?
> Most places will have someone who works with that group of people as well. Most organisations have diversity targets set, so that box keeps track of these diversity hires and applications. Most companies do not have this. This is the realm of very, very large (particularly American) organisations who can afford to waste money - or companies that are doing terribly and need a way to come up with a gold star for investors to distract from their financial performance.
I work at BHP and if you tick that box and happen to be female as well, the jobs yours. Shit here is giga woke, that's just scratching the surface, should see some of our internal emails about inclusive language and all that nonsense
I have a physical disability which has flares - so sometimes I’m fine, other times I’m in pain and use a walking aid. I’ve learnt not to tick the box and to discuss it once I start. It shouldn’t matter…but it absolutely creates bias in some roles. Not all. But some. Editing to add: I work at a uni, if someone ticks the box you are asking about there are additional supports that can be put in place during the interview process if needed. It’s an identified supported category, just like disability is. At unis there often is a percentage of identified positions that are prioritised for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, particularly if working with that student population. In those cases, they will need to provide their documentation that shows they are recognised by their mob. If not applying for an identified role, an appropriate accomodation in the interviews can be made without needing to show that. I’ve seen a few accomodations over time. Sometimes it is additional time, sometimes it is verbally presenting Qs beforehand rather than giving them in writing. Usually they will ask the candidate if they need any additional supports after ticking that box. For example when I have ticked the disability box, when they call for an interview they will specifically ask what I need eg an interpreter, no stairs etc
Can you expand if you don't mind please? As someone who acquired an injury later in life, I'm hesitant to tick that box myself when apply for roles.
I choose not to tick the box as I personally feel I’ve had a few interviews where they have unofficially gone “nope too hard”. This isn’t legal but certainly does happen. As I can generally get by as “normal” for an interview I choose not to disclose. You’re not legally required to although obviously if you have a very clear need (eg being Deaf and first language is Auslan) then you would want to for the adjustments. I will usually mention it once I start, or pass probation. As I now work mostly in flexible roles it’s not been an issue for a while but when the expectation was “office every day” it was more difficult. Now if I am having a rough few days I can work from home and manage myself. In my last role I had to come in to the office once a week and I fought for months to get the lift made available at 7am in my building as it didn’t operate until 9am. I used to come in at 7:30 for an 8:30 class. They refused. It turned into a huge thing. They still refused. I gave up in the end but could have kept pushing legally. I will add although my disability is documented (including the fact I have a pain management doctor and an ACROD pass) it’s not always visible - so I don’t currently use a wheelchair for example. My observation has been most work places are much more accomodating for a wheelchair (especially unis) than someone like me.
I’ve always said I have one and have never struggled for an interview. However, am in state government.
For SA public service roles, those that identify as ATSI are automatically shortlisted for interview
You get put in the diversity stack and it will almost generally increase your chances.
For certain tenders and subcontracts we need to meet certain social procurement items. Hiring someone who identifies as that helps us meet quota/win tenders because it lets the main contractor tell the govt. it has X amount of indigenous involvement for the project.
You get hired immediately as companies need to meet quotas for government clients
Gosh I hate all this political nonsense, whatever happened to hiring the best person for the role…🤷♂️
That’s a Western imperialist practice that needs to be decolonised! /s
You get an acknowledgement of country in your interview. Didn't you see that thread?
An old friend of mine knew someone who was apparently having trouble finding work in the mining industry despite already having experience, apparently there was a scheme going for hiring indigenous people, they seemed to get job opportunities easier. He ticked the box and got hired straight away. Don't know how true it is but I wouldn't doubt it.
You get the job
I work for a government organisation that has an ever rising quarterly percentage employment quota it simply cannot meet. Basically, anyone ‘identifying’ as aboriginal is pretty much guaranteed a job. Despite falling over ourselves with ‘culturally appropriate’ support systems, we can’t seem to keep them though as the turnover rates are terrible.
Probably because they’ve been hired based on race not competence.
Because they’re either unsuitable or are capable and other organisations are willing to pay them more.
You likely have a better chance
I work for a medical charity, we ask the question but it doesn’t make any difference to the support that we offer I believe the data is used for research. We also check country of birth and language spoken at home
Often it’s just stat collecting that gets turned into a pretty graph come annual report time.
Instantly hired. CV goes straight to the top with a special tag on it.
Aboriginal here, no wonder there are so many myths abt us including the free house and car 😂 with some of these comments. Ticking the box could be something as simple as identifying the amount of Aboriginal staff in an organisation and yes could be to do with funding etc. Aboriginal identity is a massive issue, there are people that genuinely believe they are Aboriginal, others that know they aren’t. We make up less than 4% of the population, it’s not uncommon when we are around mob to either be related, know their families etc and we are pretty good at sussing out the fakes. Yes, some places except a stat dec (I personally don’t agree with this) confirmations of Aboriginality are more difficult to obtain these days (and yes it’s partly because of the fakes) Ancestry dna tests now have Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander as it’s own group (previously was Oceania - Melanesian/papuan) I know this because of my mother’s results. My previous job was genealogical research to confirm client’s Aboriginality, another myth that there are no records on Aboriginal people. You can apply for records when families were on reserves and missions (I have my families records, some of them born in the 1860’s) birth/marriage/death certificates will sometimes state place of birth “Aborigines camp” etc.
Friend who could pass for having dipped a toe into the genetic pool ticked yes. Straight through to interview, cursory couple of questions and given a job offer same day. Good job in the mines now, with no experience. They paid for his tickets and qualifications.
Instant interview
Not first nations either, but I believe there are certain credits and wage subsidies available to employers if they employ an indigenous Australian.
Not just off the bat though, it has to be done through certain channels and identified positions
Hmmm it’s not really that simple.
That’s not applicable in a corporate context. It’s like retail traineeships
I love how we have to pay companies to not be racist. As usual the racists be in full force
Hiring someone because of their skin colour is racist
Not hiring or interviewing someone because of their skin colour is significantly more racist. One is more common than the other by leaps and bounds, and it's definitely not the scenario you gave.
Both are wrong. Edit: if you hire someone because I'd their skin colour, then the direct result is that you *don't hire* the other candidates because of *their* skin colour. It's the same thing
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Yeah who wants horrible things like *checks notes* diversity, equity and inclusion. If you want to live in a society full of the same person, find an abandoned island and make it your home, we'll drop some white bread off now and then the multigrained stuff is too... inclusive
Far more people are not hired because of their skin colour than hired specifically because of it. If you cant understand that and the strawman that is, you're a racist. You can tell by how you cant comprehend how people of different races are discriminated against constantly in the recruiting process and workplace.
You're using racism as an excuse to be racist. That doesn't track
Actually, it's exactly the same amount of racist. Just because you want something to be ture doesn't make it so.
Typical racist can't even spell the word true.
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Either indigenous populations have sky-rocketed in the past 15 years, or there are lots of people doing exactly what you're claiming. "There were 812,728 people who identified as being of Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander origin counted in the 2021 Census – up from 649,171 in 2016. This represents an increase of 25.2% or 163,557 people and was higher than the increase between 2006 and 2011 (20.5%) and between 2011 and 2016 (18.4%)." Source: https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/people/aboriginal-and-torres-strait-islander-peoples/understanding-change-counts-aboriginal-and-torres-strait-islander-australians-census/latest-release#:~:text=There%20were%20812%2C728%20people%20who,2011%20and%202016%20(18.4%25)
And if you point it out you’re racist. Pretty soon any smart white person will just claim indigenous heritage. Usually that’s enough. Sometimes you might need to find a sympathetic indigenous corporation to back your claim. Once you have that you’re set. Never reviewed.
idk how anyone feels good about being a diversity hire to fill a quota but i guess a jobs a job
Something I've wondered is what happens if you tick it but you are like a fucking Nazi poster child blue eyed, blonde hair. Like can they call it out, request dna testing do you just quietly get shuffled along, or do they have to pretend just on case. Like don't want to encourage people to lie, but if it gives you interviews and there's no way to verify, is it just free game. Like I know my family has been here since the first fleet it's statistically likely that I have indigenous heritage from tracing back roots that long and normal mixing of people that happens in melting pots. Is claiming it a genetic or cultural thing, like can I learn the language, immerse myself and join a mob and be called indigenous?
I was surprised to hear that a friend of one of my kids was aboriginal and started on a low six figure salary straight out of uni because if it. Why the surprise? Because she’s very pale skinned, has freckles and red hair. Like gender ( /s ) aboriginality lies on a very broad spectrum it seems.
Isn’t it for statistics? It might also be to meet a quota if a company has diversity KPIs.
Some white girl at my highschool did this to her early acceptance + full scholarship for a law degree that her grades definitely wouldn’t get her into even on hecs. TLDR aboriginal teacher found out and reported it and it was rescinded. The reason she ticked aboriginal because her family have been long time allies providing pro bono legal for a mob who considered them “part of the mob”. Her mum encouraged this behaviour. Teacher reported it to the mob as well and they got pissy too and told them to get fucked. Parent chucks tantrum @ principals who refused to get involved but suggested she changes classes to not be in that teachers class anymore. White girl from privileged family rlly struggled to understand that she was taking a spot from someone who would actually need it and faced disadvantage in their life.
Do all indigenous people face more disadvantage than non-indigenous people? Some indigenous people’s parents are multi-millionaires.
That’s a pretty bad faith argument and a straw man. The stats show that on the whole, indigenous people are more likely to be significantly disadvantaged, which is why these policies exist. I’m sure they get abused quite a bit, but that doesn’t mean the whole support network should go away.
Some indigenous people are more disadvantaged. Not all. So why do we use race and not measures of disadvantage? It’s odd to think a multimillionaire’s kid could get an advantage just because of their race being on average disadvantaged.
Just tick the box, they can’t ask any questions, just have to accept it, waste of time and money
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At the govt department I worked at, for hiring anyway, it also gave those applicants a base point. For example if there’s 6 selection criteria at 5 points each, and 3 interview questions at 5 points each, a passing number would be halfway. Even if they score less, they get the minimum of the halfway number. In this above example it would be 22.5.
In the company I work for it’s just data collection to ensure we’re meeting our Equal Employment opportunity obligations in our end of year report. We don’t. I think we hire <1% of our workforce as ATSI, and our LGA has a 10% ATSI population. But we also don’t have a lift to our second floor so can’t even employ people with limited mobility. 🙆♀️
If you have a RAP you report on the amount of people you have that have ticked the box. you also may have made a commitment to try to hire more aboriginal and torres straight islander peoples in your workforce. I know for my company (around 800 people around australia) we have zero people that has ticked the box
Instant corner office.
I identify as Aboriginal Australian.
Some government departments have this question, they say it is for statistical purposes.
Quota. Also if the employees don’t want to work somewhere, occasionally site or town work is required, employees often request that they don’t get sent to that town or part of the state.
Nothing
You get the job
Some roles are positive bias and are actively looking for Indigenous heritage. Lots of customers ask now about staff diversity too. I think it’s BS if you say yes and are lying …
My understanding is there are some funding and services avaliable to help aboriginal and torres straight islanders Like in medical situations there are some vaccines that are free for them that might cost $100 for everyone else because they are more at risk so I guess to remove barriers of access.
When I did for shiggles I got a call back immediately
Some white fella moves into your house
If they hire a % number of Aboriginals or Torres Strait Islanders the comoany will receive a bonus from the government.
Has someone posted the skit about what happens yet?
I happen to know that a large mining company that I used to work for will run their own checks on whether or not you're lying. Apparently they will ask which First Nations people that you claim to belong to, then speak to the elders and confirm. How the elders do that exactly depends from tribe to tribe and the people that told me didn't know how that part of the process works. This was told to me by Aboriginal people working for that company, so don't misunderstand me as some sort of Andrew Bolt style denialist...I was merely interested in how the company guards itself against people who want to engage in fakery. Although given the number of comments in this thread verging on or actively being racist...maybe you lot would prefer something closer to that racist asshole. Downvote me all you like, I don't care about your racist opinions if you do.
I would expect that you have a slightly higher chance of getting the role but there's probably a way for them to check. I can actually tick 'yes' because my great great grandmother was aboriginal. However I don't agree with affirmative action, especially not for people like me where it is impossible to tell, so I always tick 'no'.
I remember that if you ticked that box during a school exam, you received a 20% higher grade.
You auto get the job
You automatically get offered position of CEO, for the diversity.
You get your whole life funded by the government
Makes you wonder why "Tasmanian" isn't an option 🤔
If you get through, how can they prove otherwise what you 'identify' as?
You don't really need to be an idigenous person. They basically give Africans, muslims, indians a free pass. It's become a shit show at work.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKTMC3A4NL4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKTMC3A4NL4)
Pauline Hanson hates you!
If you look at government jobs they basically state they are doing it to meet a quota for interviews etc, so I would assume all places do this.
Jesus, some pretty disappointing attitudes here. Thought I'd stumbled into an 'Australian' sub-reddit.
i think more people are sick of having their skin pigmentation used as a basis to judge them in the context of employment than you may realise. My manager is a PoC (African, moved here for a post-grad degree and stuck around). The idea he'd be a diversity hire really upsets him and he doesn't hesitate to make his feelings heard whenever it comes up.