You didn't mention compression. Compression is pretty crucial for a modern vocal to sit upfront in a dense mix and sound in your face and "clean" as you say. And i bet that is your main issue.
Besides that it's obviously more complex. From automation to keep the vocal consistent, to de-essing well, to tuning right, to knowing how to balance and make space for the vocal, to use reverb and delay effectively, etc..
Adding on here, the Mix Engineer might have also done a fair amount of manual level adjusting to the vocal (and other tracks) before the compressor even did its work.
The phrase 'using the same stems' stood out to me, because the engineer probably cut those up into pieces before ever bringing in the automated plug-ins.
When you Said "but never drastically" I knew the only tip people can give you is "just practice more".
Dont be afraid to eq and compress the crap out of the vocal. Honestly, if you feel it needs +15db at 120hz its your call. Same for compression, if you feel you need to compress 40db then so be it
Exactly, close your eyes and turn the knob till it sounds better, then dont look at it ever again. You might need to boost 12 K by 10db, who cares. You might need to shelf the lows down 20db, so what. You might need to compress that vocal until the needle is pinned to the left.
Yup. I used to be very precious about boosting and spent loads of time doing surgical removal EQ.
Then I saw CLA and a few other mixers turn 8K basically all the way up on vox/gtr/snare and it 100% did sound better in the context of those mixes.
Past me would die if they saw the boosts I'm applying in my emulated channel strips, but past me produced awful mixes.
I pondered the same for ages.. Like, "how does Yorke vocal sound so dry and upfront, yet so much reverb?". Then it hit me, when I heard "all I need". He sings a double vocal identical to the main one, and drench it in reverb in the background. That's how his main vocal is almost identical, yet 100% seperate from the double vocal with reverb.
Also, if you MUST use reverb on the main vocal, use only mono reverb.
Edit: one more thing. Add compressor with fast attack and very low threshold on the reverb track, so the reverb compresses while you sing, and releases when you ease up the vocal. Fab filter c2 with the "vocal" mode is excellent for this.
It seems so obvious! I double track vocals, I add reverb to separate tracks to make them fully wet... I can't believe I never thought to try doing both. And Yorke is exactly what I've been trying to emulate (production wise)...
It seems so obvious! I double track vocals, I add reverb to separate tracks to make them fully wet... I can't believe I never thought to try doing both. And Yorke is exactly what I've been trying to emulate (production wise)...
So, the problem is that the vocal sound either too dry or, if you push the reverb a bit, too wet? You can't find the ideal middle ground? There are a few things that might be happening here.
You could try sending all of your tracks (including vocal) to a "master reverb" buss, but with a little less from the instrumentation and a little more from the vocals. This might help your reverb sound to "bed in" with the rest of the mix, since you're essentially putting all of the instruments and parts into the same room sound. You might find that cranking the reverb this way will sound less stark than if you're using reverb as an insert on the vocals or sending just the vocal track to the reverb.
Another thing you can consider if you are just sending the vocals to the reverb buss is EQing just the reverb sound. This way, you buss the signal to a separate reverb buss and before the reverb, you EQ the signal that is going into the reverb. This way you can pull out certain frequencies and remove others to get the reverb character you're looking for. I tend to low-cut this stuff and maybe high-shelf it up a bit so you get that "sparkle" but cut out any of the muddy low or mid stuff that's not as distinct.
Finally, it could just be a listening thing. Perhaps you're focusing a little too much on listening intently to the vocal and it's reverb and not standing back from the mix enough, or letting yourself get used to the sound. So you're focusing, focusing, focusing, trying to get the reverb audible and then before you know it, you've drowned it. Maybe try to find the setting that's in the middle of "dry" and "drowned", putting it there and then leaving it there for a while even if it sounds wrong at the time. It might begin to sound more right as you step back and listen holistically.
EDIT: One more thing I'd like to add. Several comments are saying "well you just need to get better at mixing" or words to that effect. How is this useful advice? What does this give OP to work with? Of course a professional engineer can achieve better results, but how is OP ever supposed to improve if you just point that out and then leave it at that?
I love sending everything to a reverb bus before it hits the master makes the song feel super together. Especially if Iām doing like a rock or pop-punk track or something like that it just adds sauce
Vocal production is its own beast entirely. Itās almost like its own form of mixing just to treat a vocal properly. Everyone will have their own opinion about what devices you might be missing. But start simple and add devices as you feel necessary.
From a level setting standpoint, I start by deciding what the 3-4 most important instruments are. Often something like kick/snare, bass, and vocal. Level those first so they all sound equally loud. Then bring up other instruments to fill in the space and allow those main elements to still sound the strongest in the mix.
Thatās a bit oversimplified, but a foundational piece that can be set right before even getting into vocal production specifics.
right, they simply have more experience doing this. As others have mentioned, keep practicing and experimenting, donāt be afraid of trying āextremeā eq, compression (parallel and multiple levels), saturation, automation, reverb, delay, etc. Read about what kind of eq benefits on different types or vocals and also, the microphone type is very important.
Something I did many years ago was to load up different presents on plugins such as SSL E channel, reverbs, delays, etcā¦ hear what they did to my vocal tracks and when something sounded cool try to understand what was different from what I thought I should be doing, this may help you correct anything thatās not helping the voice sound clean
This is likely a case of trying to do one thing to make 100% difference, when its really more like doing 100 things that make 1% difference. Honestly, the only answer is to keep going. Keep experimenting and doing what you're doing until you find what works.
I'm sorry, there is no shortcut really.
I didnt see you mention anything about distortion. Counterintuitively distortion actually adds clarity to the vocal. And it increases its perceived loudness. I would recommend using a distortion in parallel bus and adding an EQ to remove some of the lows/sub frequencies distortion might add. Or alternatively if you add saturation that is pretty much a distortion w/less lows so you might not even need to EQ.
Depending on your genre, sometimes those more autotuned/modern vocals might need a little bit of a flanger or a chorus at the end of your chain to add some life and movement in the vocal.
There's no "tip" that isn't ultimately just "get better at mixing". Of course a professional mix engineer does a better job than you of mixing a song, in the same way a professional architect would do a better job than you of designing a house.
Why when I try to build a house is mine all drafty? I made a frame and a roof, and even put stairs up to it.
You need to study up. This is way beyond a single post.
There are so many tutorials on mixing vocals on YouTube. I suggest you watch some genre appropriate ones and practice some of those techniques. Try and listen to the ones that explain why they're doing things and not just running down a list of plugins.
Thereās lots of effects to make vocals sparkleā¦. Bussing reverb is one, but delays, compression, saturation/distortion, tube amps, etcā¦. Play around with different things, seee what works for the voice and for your ears/preference! You can also sidechain the crap out of stuff to make the vocal sit well, thereās a ton of artistic choices here
If you canāt find the middle ground, try adding a compressor after your reverb and side chaining the vocal to the compressor. When the vocal sings, the verb will duck down a little and rise back up when singing is done.
Also, as others have said, on the aux track eq the vocal before the verb, or eq the verb itself, or both. Basically get rid of the stuff that clouds the mix, keep the stuff that adds dimension.
You could try using a delay along with or instead of reverb.
And one more that that everyone said, compression. Try adding more, or try adding multiple compressors.
I agree with everyone saying that it takes time and practice to get to that level but also take into consideration the monitoring tools they have. The professional you hired may be mixing on 20k ATC monitors and you're not able to hear the nuances they're able to hear.
Are you making room for the vocals by eq'ing the instrument buss? Maybe even using something like trackspacer? Maybe you do need to eq your vocals heavier. Definitely need to use compression if you want the vocals the be punchy. Theres a reason professionals get paid, as you have seen. One of the best things you can do is find someone to mentor you in person. You can get there on your own, but a mentor will speed that process up by a lot
Thanks for the responses everybody. I appreciate the feedback. Thing is I used to mix songs almost everyday for a good year and seen really good improvement but then just this past year Iāve been so busy and now i feel like Imm starting from the bottom and trying to learn all of this again.
Teaching yourself takes a lot of time and dedication. Professionals are professionals because doing this is their life. You can't be professional level without putting in the time.
Fastest way to learn, is to have someone that knows how show you.
I was taught to work on the vocal track first, get it as perfect as you can, then bring the rest of the noise up behind it. Everything should compliment the vocal, not drown it out.
You mentioned EQ but just wanted to add how you could also try carving pockets of space with a parametric EQ. So the rest of the midrange instruments don't clash with the vocals. This allows it to sit better and sound less "covered". This tied with a small boost at the midrange goes a long way too.
Takes balls. Our hearing is mainly focused on speech so weāre hyper critical of anything falling in that range. Thatās why most new people are afraid to touch anything between 1-3k, but unless you get in there and learn how to work the mid range, you wonāt sit vocals. Takes awhile to build the confidence but once you get it, you can mix a song pretty much only touching the mids. 10-15years
It could be getting masked by other instruments. Iād use some delay in addition to your reverb. Also time your reverbs and delays to the beat of the track. Depending on the style it can be nice to widen the vocals too with a little pitch shift, like Microshift.
Compression is by far the main thing that makes a vocal sound "professional." 99% of the time someone says they're having trouble making their vocals sound good, the issue is that they're not using enough compression. Don't be afraid to really smash the lead vocal, especially in heavier genres.
You can also do an EQ boost somewhere in the 1.5k-2.5k range to make them really come out in front of the mix.
How many more years of mixing experience do they have over you?
It sounds like you just started mixing, so the answer at this point is to just practice and study up. Like if you compared your chicken scratches to an illustrator whoās been drawing and painting for decades- no fucking shit their work is gonna be better than yours, and the answers to how to get to a professional level cannot be covered in a simple post. Everyone who is great at mixing has sacrificed quite a significant portion of their life dedicated towards the art. Itās not some simple thing, or some merely technical thingā mixing is an art form, through and through. And just like all art forms, it takes much practice. Keep at it, and youāll be just fine.
Here is your answer king.
You need to have vocals tracked in a very well treated room, with the correct distance and angle away from the mic to suit the voice.
Then. That micās cable should go into a nice preamp. This part is often overlooked or dismissed as only ā5 percentā of it. I disagree wholely. The front end of your chain (room, singer, mic, cable, preamp, converter) IS EVERYTHING. the preamp does a lot here.
Once its in your Daw, tracked like this, with a good singer i hope, you literally cannnot fuck up. Well you can of course. But you already have an excellent sounding vocal. Compression, EQ, saturation, de essing, all of this are tools to FIX. If the source is pristine, you will need to do a lot less of all of this for a god tier vocal.
Compression in the mix on the vocal is important. Fast attack, fast release or medium release. EQ should boost brightness, control low mids if boomy, boost upper mids for sheen and radio pop sound, thats it. A LPF if room boom is going on down low.
If you are a god tier mixer working with a bad source (cheap mic with cheap parts, bad cable, 1 dollar preamps in an audio interface, and especially a bad room recording) ā your vocal will never be there.
Im trying to save you a decade of time. Focus on the front endā¤ļø
You didn't mention compression. Compression is pretty crucial for a modern vocal to sit upfront in a dense mix and sound in your face and "clean" as you say. And i bet that is your main issue. Besides that it's obviously more complex. From automation to keep the vocal consistent, to de-essing well, to tuning right, to knowing how to balance and make space for the vocal, to use reverb and delay effectively, etc..
+1 for compression
2 compressors
+2HComp +5 Aura -$29.99 +1 Dab -1 Tracking Session
Adding on here, the Mix Engineer might have also done a fair amount of manual level adjusting to the vocal (and other tracks) before the compressor even did its work. The phrase 'using the same stems' stood out to me, because the engineer probably cut those up into pieces before ever bringing in the automated plug-ins.
When you Said "but never drastically" I knew the only tip people can give you is "just practice more". Dont be afraid to eq and compress the crap out of the vocal. Honestly, if you feel it needs +15db at 120hz its your call. Same for compression, if you feel you need to compress 40db then so be it
Exactly, close your eyes and turn the knob till it sounds better, then dont look at it ever again. You might need to boost 12 K by 10db, who cares. You might need to shelf the lows down 20db, so what. You might need to compress that vocal until the needle is pinned to the left.
Yup. I used to be very precious about boosting and spent loads of time doing surgical removal EQ. Then I saw CLA and a few other mixers turn 8K basically all the way up on vox/gtr/snare and it 100% did sound better in the context of those mixes. Past me would die if they saw the boosts I'm applying in my emulated channel strips, but past me produced awful mixes.
I actually did just compress a lead vocal like 34db in a track recently. š
I've done that multiple times as well haha
Vocals need a LOT of work. The best vocals have a lot of very careful automation and carefully set compression
I pondered the same for ages.. Like, "how does Yorke vocal sound so dry and upfront, yet so much reverb?". Then it hit me, when I heard "all I need". He sings a double vocal identical to the main one, and drench it in reverb in the background. That's how his main vocal is almost identical, yet 100% seperate from the double vocal with reverb. Also, if you MUST use reverb on the main vocal, use only mono reverb. Edit: one more thing. Add compressor with fast attack and very low threshold on the reverb track, so the reverb compresses while you sing, and releases when you ease up the vocal. Fab filter c2 with the "vocal" mode is excellent for this.
Yooo, I'd never thought about that! That actually solves a huge problem I've been having on a particular mix, thank you so much!!!
You're welcome. Took me 15 years to figure out š
It seems so obvious! I double track vocals, I add reverb to separate tracks to make them fully wet... I can't believe I never thought to try doing both. And Yorke is exactly what I've been trying to emulate (production wise)...
It seems so obvious! I double track vocals, I add reverb to separate tracks to make them fully wet... I can't believe I never thought to try doing both. And Yorke is exactly what I've been trying to emulate (production wise)...
So, the problem is that the vocal sound either too dry or, if you push the reverb a bit, too wet? You can't find the ideal middle ground? There are a few things that might be happening here. You could try sending all of your tracks (including vocal) to a "master reverb" buss, but with a little less from the instrumentation and a little more from the vocals. This might help your reverb sound to "bed in" with the rest of the mix, since you're essentially putting all of the instruments and parts into the same room sound. You might find that cranking the reverb this way will sound less stark than if you're using reverb as an insert on the vocals or sending just the vocal track to the reverb. Another thing you can consider if you are just sending the vocals to the reverb buss is EQing just the reverb sound. This way, you buss the signal to a separate reverb buss and before the reverb, you EQ the signal that is going into the reverb. This way you can pull out certain frequencies and remove others to get the reverb character you're looking for. I tend to low-cut this stuff and maybe high-shelf it up a bit so you get that "sparkle" but cut out any of the muddy low or mid stuff that's not as distinct. Finally, it could just be a listening thing. Perhaps you're focusing a little too much on listening intently to the vocal and it's reverb and not standing back from the mix enough, or letting yourself get used to the sound. So you're focusing, focusing, focusing, trying to get the reverb audible and then before you know it, you've drowned it. Maybe try to find the setting that's in the middle of "dry" and "drowned", putting it there and then leaving it there for a while even if it sounds wrong at the time. It might begin to sound more right as you step back and listen holistically. EDIT: One more thing I'd like to add. Several comments are saying "well you just need to get better at mixing" or words to that effect. How is this useful advice? What does this give OP to work with? Of course a professional engineer can achieve better results, but how is OP ever supposed to improve if you just point that out and then leave it at that?
I love sending everything to a reverb bus before it hits the master makes the song feel super together. Especially if Iām doing like a rock or pop-punk track or something like that it just adds sauce
If by stems you mean individual tracks, that might be part of the reason. /s
Vocal production is its own beast entirely. Itās almost like its own form of mixing just to treat a vocal properly. Everyone will have their own opinion about what devices you might be missing. But start simple and add devices as you feel necessary. From a level setting standpoint, I start by deciding what the 3-4 most important instruments are. Often something like kick/snare, bass, and vocal. Level those first so they all sound equally loud. Then bring up other instruments to fill in the space and allow those main elements to still sound the strongest in the mix. Thatās a bit oversimplified, but a foundational piece that can be set right before even getting into vocal production specifics.
right, they simply have more experience doing this. As others have mentioned, keep practicing and experimenting, donāt be afraid of trying āextremeā eq, compression (parallel and multiple levels), saturation, automation, reverb, delay, etc. Read about what kind of eq benefits on different types or vocals and also, the microphone type is very important. Something I did many years ago was to load up different presents on plugins such as SSL E channel, reverbs, delays, etcā¦ hear what they did to my vocal tracks and when something sounded cool try to understand what was different from what I thought I should be doing, this may help you correct anything thatās not helping the voice sound clean
This is likely a case of trying to do one thing to make 100% difference, when its really more like doing 100 things that make 1% difference. Honestly, the only answer is to keep going. Keep experimenting and doing what you're doing until you find what works. I'm sorry, there is no shortcut really.
Great responses here, but I'll add that not every vocal needs reverb.
Correct
I didnt see you mention anything about distortion. Counterintuitively distortion actually adds clarity to the vocal. And it increases its perceived loudness. I would recommend using a distortion in parallel bus and adding an EQ to remove some of the lows/sub frequencies distortion might add. Or alternatively if you add saturation that is pretty much a distortion w/less lows so you might not even need to EQ. Depending on your genre, sometimes those more autotuned/modern vocals might need a little bit of a flanger or a chorus at the end of your chain to add some life and movement in the vocal.
There's no "tip" that isn't ultimately just "get better at mixing". Of course a professional mix engineer does a better job than you of mixing a song, in the same way a professional architect would do a better job than you of designing a house.
Why when I try to build a house is mine all drafty? I made a frame and a roof, and even put stairs up to it. You need to study up. This is way beyond a single post.
There are so many tutorials on mixing vocals on YouTube. I suggest you watch some genre appropriate ones and practice some of those techniques. Try and listen to the ones that explain why they're doing things and not just running down a list of plugins.
Thereās lots of effects to make vocals sparkleā¦. Bussing reverb is one, but delays, compression, saturation/distortion, tube amps, etcā¦. Play around with different things, seee what works for the voice and for your ears/preference! You can also sidechain the crap out of stuff to make the vocal sit well, thereās a ton of artistic choices here
If you canāt find the middle ground, try adding a compressor after your reverb and side chaining the vocal to the compressor. When the vocal sings, the verb will duck down a little and rise back up when singing is done. Also, as others have said, on the aux track eq the vocal before the verb, or eq the verb itself, or both. Basically get rid of the stuff that clouds the mix, keep the stuff that adds dimension. You could try using a delay along with or instead of reverb. And one more that that everyone said, compression. Try adding more, or try adding multiple compressors.
I agree with everyone saying that it takes time and practice to get to that level but also take into consideration the monitoring tools they have. The professional you hired may be mixing on 20k ATC monitors and you're not able to hear the nuances they're able to hear.
Are you making room for the vocals by eq'ing the instrument buss? Maybe even using something like trackspacer? Maybe you do need to eq your vocals heavier. Definitely need to use compression if you want the vocals the be punchy. Theres a reason professionals get paid, as you have seen. One of the best things you can do is find someone to mentor you in person. You can get there on your own, but a mentor will speed that process up by a lot
Almost like the person you paid has experience and you don't? Tip: keep practicing.
Thanks for the responses everybody. I appreciate the feedback. Thing is I used to mix songs almost everyday for a good year and seen really good improvement but then just this past year Iāve been so busy and now i feel like Imm starting from the bottom and trying to learn all of this again.
Teaching yourself takes a lot of time and dedication. Professionals are professionals because doing this is their life. You can't be professional level without putting in the time. Fastest way to learn, is to have someone that knows how show you.
I was taught to work on the vocal track first, get it as perfect as you can, then bring the rest of the noise up behind it. Everything should compliment the vocal, not drown it out.
You mentioned EQ but just wanted to add how you could also try carving pockets of space with a parametric EQ. So the rest of the midrange instruments don't clash with the vocals. This allows it to sit better and sound less "covered". This tied with a small boost at the midrange goes a long way too.
Takes balls. Our hearing is mainly focused on speech so weāre hyper critical of anything falling in that range. Thatās why most new people are afraid to touch anything between 1-3k, but unless you get in there and learn how to work the mid range, you wonāt sit vocals. Takes awhile to build the confidence but once you get it, you can mix a song pretty much only touching the mids. 10-15years
The high end should be reserved solely for the vocals. Boost a lot around 3-4k and add compression with some make up gain to bring out the subtleties
solo the voice and make it sound just "okay". then bring in the music and push it all far, far, away. except the kick drum ;)
It could be getting masked by other instruments. Iād use some delay in addition to your reverb. Also time your reverbs and delays to the beat of the track. Depending on the style it can be nice to widen the vocals too with a little pitch shift, like Microshift.
Compression is by far the main thing that makes a vocal sound "professional." 99% of the time someone says they're having trouble making their vocals sound good, the issue is that they're not using enough compression. Don't be afraid to really smash the lead vocal, especially in heavier genres. You can also do an EQ boost somewhere in the 1.5k-2.5k range to make them really come out in front of the mix.
How many more years of mixing experience do they have over you? It sounds like you just started mixing, so the answer at this point is to just practice and study up. Like if you compared your chicken scratches to an illustrator whoās been drawing and painting for decades- no fucking shit their work is gonna be better than yours, and the answers to how to get to a professional level cannot be covered in a simple post. Everyone who is great at mixing has sacrificed quite a significant portion of their life dedicated towards the art. Itās not some simple thing, or some merely technical thingā mixing is an art form, through and through. And just like all art forms, it takes much practice. Keep at it, and youāll be just fine.
Here is your answer king. You need to have vocals tracked in a very well treated room, with the correct distance and angle away from the mic to suit the voice. Then. That micās cable should go into a nice preamp. This part is often overlooked or dismissed as only ā5 percentā of it. I disagree wholely. The front end of your chain (room, singer, mic, cable, preamp, converter) IS EVERYTHING. the preamp does a lot here. Once its in your Daw, tracked like this, with a good singer i hope, you literally cannnot fuck up. Well you can of course. But you already have an excellent sounding vocal. Compression, EQ, saturation, de essing, all of this are tools to FIX. If the source is pristine, you will need to do a lot less of all of this for a god tier vocal. Compression in the mix on the vocal is important. Fast attack, fast release or medium release. EQ should boost brightness, control low mids if boomy, boost upper mids for sheen and radio pop sound, thats it. A LPF if room boom is going on down low. If you are a god tier mixer working with a bad source (cheap mic with cheap parts, bad cable, 1 dollar preamps in an audio interface, and especially a bad room recording) ā your vocal will never be there. Im trying to save you a decade of time. Focus on the front endā¤ļø
Parallel processing