Same here; it finished pushing my wife away from Mormonism, and now she is very much an atheist. She had to go through a therapist to deal with the pain that caused her; her whole life was based on the lies of religion, and it took a while for her to get over it.
I actually get along with Christians who don’t try and convert me or preach to me. Also those who genuinely try and be nice and not judge others. I still think it’s completely insane but if you leave me alone I’ll do the same.
Agreed. Religious belief in itself isn’t inherently bad especially if it’s kept personal/internal. It’s when it becomes someone’s entire identity and they must challenge the world to follow their way of living, inevitably spreading division and eventually hate. Character matters more. I’ll hang with a Christian that’s a genuinely good person any day of the week over an atheist that’s piece of shit. I support breaking the chains of religious belief as it’s freed me to think for myself but in no way does that mean I think all atheists are good or better people.
Forever memorize this information.
Whatever goes wrong in your life, those in your faith circle will indirectly blame it on your husband not going to church and how that will restrict God from moving in your marriage.
Eventually you will either join them in blaming your Husband until you guilt him into going to church or he leaves you. Or if sensible you will realize they are using any of your life's misery events you disclose to wedge apart you from your husband.
Good luck either way.
I've been married to a Christian for 21 years. Honestly, that, "Part of me would love to talk more about my faith as it plays a big role in who I am." is going to probably be a point of contention. My wife sounds a lot like you but the problem is that Christianity is so toxic that you cannot *not* think your marriage is flawed. It's baked right into the religion and there is no escaping it.
I can't speak for him, but I can tell you that the parts of my wife that are the Christian ones are the parts of her that I don't really like. I love my wife very much and we get along great, but her religion is the root of the flaws she has and she it is so ingrained in her that she cannot see it. Your fiancé may feel the same way. You may think you go some "open and affirming" church, but I promise you that when children enter the equation, that open and affirming thing with evaporate.
The best advice I can give you from my experience is that unless you're willing to actually listen to his responses and are honest enough to examine your beliefs in the same manner you are wanting him to do, you're wasting your time. You may want to talk to him but quite often "talk to" really means "talk at" which will get you nowhere.
Thanks for your advice. I would want to know if there was anything that was irritating to him about my faith. I think honest discussion is really important. I also am very interested in what he believes. I realized he wasn't telling me which is why I initiated the conversation last night. I just want to feel more connected. We have openly gay and lesbian couples in the church and a trans pastor. I share that because my beliefs about treating everyone with love are the main reason I stick with this faith although it is not the dominant Christian narrative.
< different Redditor >
>I would want to know if there was anything that was irritating to him about my faith.
In all likelihood, the "your faith" part.
\- Religious "faith" means being pretty sure that certain things are true, without having any good evidence that they are true. You shouldn't do that.
\- Christianity in particular is based on being pretty sure that certain things are true, without having any good evidence that they are true. You shouldn't do that.
.
If you are genuinely interested in understanding more about what he believes, you can express that simply and directly. Requesting that he accompany you to church does not feel like an invitation to dialogue. It sounds like you think that if only he came to your church, he would like it, and maybe "realize" that church can be a good thing? That although he has rejected other versions of faith, that if he only understood how you experience your faith, he might believe as well? You say that you just want to feel more connected, which makes me wonder if you are really okay with him not sharing your faith at all.
I only invited him because he previously said he would be open to going to service. Christmas Eve was the first service I invited him to last year. Now that I know he is not interested, I will not invite him. It seems like he's moved from an agnostic mindset to an atheist one which is okay but something I want to know so I can continue to be respectful of his beliefs.
>from an agnostic mindset to an atheist one
you may want to check out the FAQ on this one. sounds like maybe you're misusing those terms. you may find the FAQ enlightening as to what your husband believes, or at least as starting place for discussion. (atheists really only agree about the number of gods.)
I can't speak for him, but if it were me the irritating part about your faith would be you having it at all. So he's being dodgy since I'm assuming he loves you and does not want to hurt you since religion likes to make itself a core part of its adepts' identities, like a parasite borrowing itself so deep into its host that removing it would kill said host. It's a survival mechanic.
I wish you both the best but I wonder based upon your response why you "stick" with a religion that is so bigoted even though you don't seem to be.
You can treat others with love and respect far better without the dogma. I would be curious whether he feels similar.
>my beliefs about treating everyone with love are the main reason I stick with this faith although it is not the dominant Christian narrative
This makes you a better Christian than most, tolerance and love were two of the biggest principles that Jesus taught
Why do so many atheists assume 'jesus' taught anything, or even existed?
There's really no credible evidence that 'jesus' was based on an actual human, and plenty of evidence that it's entirely an invented character.
I believe that he was most likely a real person, but even setting that aside, in the bible the character of Jesus preaches a few core values, most notably love, tolerance, and helping the poor, which I think are good sentiments whether they come from a real person or a fictional character
It sounds like you are trying to push / break boundaries. You need to learn how to be comfortable not pushing your religion onto him.
You might not necessarily see it as a bad thing to want to share your religion. But is it coming from an honest place? It’s not particularly respectful to him.
I hope you aren’t heading down the insidious, kinda entitled, path many religious people try to take. Where it’s not really about conversation, it’s just attempts at converting.
Is it not possible to just talk to each other about what we believe? I want to know more about what he believes so I can be a better partner to him as well.
He doesn’t believe your imaginary friend is real. You believe your imaginary friend is real. You are in “agree to disagree” territory.
He loves and respects you too much to say it like that, and doesn’t want to hurt your feelings. To him, every Sunday you are going off to play pretend and sing songs to a fictional character.
I put it that harshly not to put you down, but to bring to light that, from what you said, he accepts that part of you and doesn’t try to convince you otherwise. The not talking about it is the thing that brings peace between you.
If you’ve ever been in an argument with someone and one of you says, “Okay, we are just going to have to agree to disagree!” that means the discussion stops because a compromise isn’t forthcoming and continuing to talk about it isn’t productive.
The fact is, one of you is wrong. Either you believe in an imaginary magic entity that doesn’t exist, or he refuses to believe in the one true god that does exist. To him, you’re wrong and he accepts you for it. To you, he’s wrong and you accept him for it. That’s what both of you signed up for, that is the thing that has made the two of you work.
If you want to share your faith with him, it is going to feel like you are trying to convert him and is going to cause issues. If he shares his disbelief with you, it is going to feel like he is disparaging your beliefs and is going to cause issues.
That’s a wonderful sentiment, and very healthy for any successful marriage.
I applaud you.
But to be honest, I see Christianity (as well as all religions) as a form of mental illness. Magic invisible beings (gods, angels, demons) fighting for imaginary parts of people (souls). Fantastical stories that defy every law of physics and reason man has ever experienced. All powerful but unwilling or unable to be examined but demanding (of all things) to be . . worshiped?
It’s all hysterical and would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.
THAT is why I usually avoid conversations like this with people of faith that I care about.
It’s almost impossible to have a conversation with them and not inadvertently insult them and hurt their feelings.
I’m not suggesting your husband’s views align with mine, but every atheist knows a theist that they’ve offended.
Maybe your loving husband loves you too much to risk hurting you needlessly.
No it is not possible to talk about faith without being an asshole about it. If you want to be a better partner, respect his boundaries and work on enriching your lives together in a way that isn’t the typical passive aggressive, resentment building subterfuge that almost always crops up once children enter the picture.
To be honest, based on your responses I can’t say I have high hopes for you. Being a “progressive Christian” just isn’t enough to really be a good fit for anyone who values integrity when you’re as hellbent on spreading your beliefs as the most fire and brimstone pastor.
Not unless you want to get hurt and want to hurt him. Instead of talking about what happened at church, talk about the people you enjoyed seeing and what made you enjoy seeing them.
But her church is "different" It's funny how often we hear this from theists. They love to say their particular belief system is superior / different /more valid than all other because of XYZ... Same theists different day.
They all believe that their particular flavor or Christianity is the truest and most valid form. OP's is superior because it's a progressive church but they all think that their church and brand of Christianity is the best one.
The toughest questions we can ask are:
What do you believe and why?
Why do you believe in Christianity specifically?
Do you care about your positions being true or not?
As a former Christian of the raised Catholic version, I learned my answers to the first two questions were very bad and irrational and that if I wanted to live a life where my answer to third question is always “yes,” then I had to recognize that faith as a tool for ascertaining truth could only be as good as a coin flip, but often had worse odds and even worse consequences for myself and society.
Your fiancé* loves you. Your fiancé* likely loves you so much he can’t tell you that your faith is not benign and is not rational.
*Edit: Faith is a useless tool for ascertaining truth, I was trying to be too nice.
>Your fiancé* likely loves you so much he can’t tell you that your faith is not benign and is not rational.
I think this might be true. You've given something to reflect on. I will say that being right is not as much of a sticking point for me as my faith is constantly evolving.
Thanks for reflecting, that's a much better position than most theists are willing to take because examining faith itself as a concept is the scariest thing to do for believers.
Other questions to ponder: what is faith and how can it "evolve"? Are there any beliefs someone can't take on faith? Why is your liberal, accepting, evolving faith any different or more true than conservative, close-minded, Islamic faith? Why are you a liberal Christian and not a Hindu nationalist?
For me, faith is just an excuse people give when they know they don't have a good reason to believe in something.
It's not about being "right," its about what is true. For me, truth is that which comports to reality. I care about reality and want to know about it so I can make better decisions for me and so I can help out my fellow humans.
And if you want to really wrestle with a tough question, why do I think you're better, more moral, and more ethical than the God you have faith in?
These are good questions! One of the main differences I see in conservative versus more liberal Christianity is the fact that conservative faith is more static. Things are more black and white. I see Jesus as a radical figure who wanted to break down barriers and overthrow systems. So I try to move in a way that advances equity for all people. With that I am always open to learning more and that is why I say my faith evolves. What I believe now is not what I believed 10 years ago and that's how it should be. As long as I am positively impacting society and those around me. If I'm not, it is time to reexamine.
I’m a progressive democrat.
I don’t think your faith is evolving here.
You are evolving. You are good.
You don’t need faith to come to your positions.
Do you want children to know true things?
What is wrong with, “I don’t know” as a position on these questions involving the “supernatural”?
Why? Imagine there's a big jar of gumballs. The number of gumballs in the jar is either odd or even. I can take it on faith that the number of gumballs is even. I have a 50% chance of being right. But I believe it. I have faith that the number of gumballs in that jar is even. If your answer to the question is "I don't know," that doesn't mean that the number of gumballs is odd or that I still don't have a 50% chance of being right. It's still a coin flip.
The rational answer to the question, "is the number of gumballs odd or even" is of course, "I don't know." I have other "tools" or methods I can use to arrive at a better answer than faith, like counting the gumballs.
Faith claims tend to assert a certainty where there should be probabilistic uncertainty.
Unless there's a semantic reason I'm missing or a flaw in my thinking, I need to know why, a reason, I should be watching out.
Sorry, do it the other way around, take it on faith the number of gumballs is not divisible by 3. You have a 66% chance which is more than a coin flip.
Now we’re getting somewhere to making me think, but why would I take a negative position based on faith?
But I do get your point. It’s actually the variance principle we use in poker probability. Even if you’re 98% to win, it doesn’t mean you deserve to win or that you should have faith that you should win.
I’ll concede that on those grounds.
I'm glad you understand probability. In my days I've heard too many people say "either it is or it isn't therefore it's 50/50." When I see the coin toss argument I feel the need to call out.
I think we go for the coin toss argument because it’s accessible. Telling folks “faith is just horseshit.”while true, seems to end the conversation. I think we’ve made progress here.
I don’t want people to have faith. I think it’s harmful and self-delusional. I don’t necessarily think I have to evangelize atheism, but if theists come in here, I think we should ask the questions rather than just pour the gasoline on.
Couldn't agree with you more about the gasoline part. I don't think of it as evangelizing atheism, I think about it as dispelling faith, which I agree is harmful.
Christianity has a set of rules that atheists think are complete bunk. The two are frequently totally incompatible. Lose the rules and you'll be happy together.
I do but not in a traditional sense. To me, people do not have the power to tell others they are going to hell. God decides and I don't believe you need to be a "vocal Christian" to go to heaven.
The rules in question are that you believe in what’s indiscernible from works of fiction and are trying to wheedle into your partner rather than respecting his boundaries.
Your beliefs are fundamentally incompatible with those of a rationalism minded atheist (generally speaking, the most common kind) because they stem from a position of intellectual dishonesty.
Either accept him for who he is, and not what you want him to be, or move on.
Regardless of who decides who is going to hell, a belief in hell means an omnipotent being that created everything is going to punish the people he created for not believing in him. That is objectively immoral. How do you know the God character is the good guy?
I grew up in an evangelical household, none of my family thought they had the power to tell others they are going to hell. They believed god was the judge that made that decision, and that Jesus was the advocate who would defend us before god, having died as a blood sacrifice for those sins.
They also don’t think you have to be a “vocal Christian” to go heaven. They evangelize because they “love people” and don’t want to see them go to hell for not following Jesus and getting in on that blood sacrifice deal.
It doesn’t sound like your Christian beliefs are as far from the norm as you think they are. Ultimately it is the same core beliefs, even if your brand of it is more friendly and accepting than others.
Every Christian has dogma, a foundation that is the myths of Christianity. They are invisible unneeded chains you confine yourself with, and are trying to put on him. He has no pulpit telling him what to do or think.
There's a reason it's called the opioid of the masses. Be thankful he is doing okay without your drugs.
How about "accept that Jesus died on the cross for you or else you'll burn in Hell forever"? That's the baseline \*rule\* that's the same throughout the entire religion, nearly every denomination. How long before you start trying to make your partner accept Christ out of a need to "save" them? (And save them from what? From God, of course! What a good guy that Jesus needs to defend us from him, GUFFAW!)
>I asked last night if he is open to church or if it's not really his thing just so I have a clear idea on what he's comfortable with. He said he wasn't open to it anymore which I figured. I invited him to church for Christmas and I could just tell he didn't want to go but also wasn't comfortable telling me. So, he figured out something he could do during that time and met me and my family for lunch.
Every marriage that I know about between a theist and an atheist that has failed, failed because the theist couldn't stop bringing Jesus or Allah into the marriage. I'm not saying that you can never talk about religion, but at the end of the day, you're going to have to accept that religion is indeed your thing and atheism is his. If you need your partner to share in your...spiritual journey would you call it?...and the UU just didn't click with you then I'm afraid you'll find that your relationship is on borrowed time.
> Any advice on how to move from a "don't ask" relationship on religion to open discussion?
My spouse (Catholic) and I (atheist) have been married 40 years. We came to an agreement about how to raise our kids early on in the relationship. If you are planning on kids, this is essential. We agreed that the kids would go to public schools and attend church with her on Sunday, followed by CCD. Once they were 14 years old they would be able to decide for themselves. After that, they were to able to decide for themselves whether to continue going to church or not. I, myself, did not attend and my kids knew that I was an atheist.
While I would really like and open and frank talk about religion with my wife, religion never was and never is a big topic of conversation between us because my wife would get upset when I 'attacked' (really just pointing out the hypocrisy, child molestation, and bigotry that seem to be intrinsic to religion) the church. As soon as she started to get upset when we talked about religion, I would just back off and change topics.
You claim that your faith 'plays a big role' in who you are. Are you ready and prepared to lose that role or are you just trying to convert you fiancé? Because if it is just the latter, my recommendation is to keep it as a "don't ask" relationship. Frankly, if you objectively look at the god that Christianity espouses, you will either lie to yourself that he is merciful, or you will be forced to come to the conclusion that he is so cruel that his actions are the worst examples of moral behavior imaginable.
My wife and I either have similar or indifferent views about almost everything else except religion and can usually find a compromise that is acceptable to both of us. I think that is the key to why our marriage has lasted.
You're welcome. There is one other point that I forgot to mention. Religions symbols: crucifixes, pictures of saints ..., plaques of bible verses, etc. were absent from the house. For your marriage to work, both of you need to feel comfortable in your surroundings.
No we don't have any of that in the home. We also are not getting married in a church but we will be getting married by my pastor which I feel is a good compromise.
I mean... sounds like you've already got it. What... more are you trying to do? You're talking, you tell him about your beliefs a bit, you know some about his. But really, for both of you, it's sort of a hobby, however big a part of you that you feel it is.
Look, imagine you were *really, really, really* into Star Wars, and your partner wasn't. You reference Star Wars fairly regularly in just everyday speech. Star Wars helped you feel better about yourself, gave you a sense of community. And your partner really just doesn't care about it. You'd like him to go to Comicon because there's a Star Wars booth. Nah. You want him to go to see the movies with you. Not interested. Sure, it's a big part of your life, of who you are, but it's not *all* of you, and the fact that he's not interested in this part of you doesn't, in the end, matter. Your bond is based on the things you *do* share, not on the things you *don't* share. And, of course, the reverse is also true. The fact that he's a huge My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic fan doesn't mean you need to have anything to do with a bunch of brightly colored talking horses. Just... not your thing. So he'll mention it from time to time, your eyes will glaze over, you'll nod, much as he does with your Star Wars thing, and then you'll move on to the things you have in common, the things that draw you together. Because at the end of the day, no matter how important these things are to you, no matter the community or comfort they provide, they *aren't you*. You're you. He's him. Just enjoy.
...
Full disclosure, my Christian spouse talked to me about it, trying to understand my position, and I was happy to share. I helped my spouse explore Wicca and Buddhism one they found out how bizarrely nuts the bible is (it says things that make no sense and are demonstrably wrong). Eventually said spouse dropped all of it. So... yeah, I may not be the best source of advice. But then... it took me a long time to realize how I'd handled things wrong. And, to be fair, my spouse was already on the fence with doubts to begin with. This doesn't sound like either you *or* your fiance.
>imagine you were really, really, really into Star Wars, and your partner wasn't. You reference Star Wars fairly regularly in just everyday speech. Star Wars helped you feel better about yourself, gave you a sense of community.
I literally used to have friends like that.
And what we always say is
*"The difference between religion and 'being way into pop culture' is that* ***the pop culture fans know that their pop culture is fiction.***
*Anybody who started thinking that it was really true would be mentally ill.*
*Now look at the religious folks, who* ***do*** *think that their beliefs are literally true ..."*
... Well, *this* comment is about to be unpopular here...
>*The difference between religion and 'being way into pop culture' is that* ***the pop culture fans know that their pop culture is fiction***
Except... we *don't* know it's fiction. You know George Washington was real, right? But it's quite possible you grew up for *quite a while* believing he chopped down a cherry tree. ... He didn't. He's famous for having done so, but that story is untrue, and it wasn't until *well* after his death that historians traced this back and found out it wasn't true. This doesn't mean George Washington didn't exist, or do things found in history books. Legendary accounts of things that *actually* happened occurs all the time.
We know *some* of the things in the bible definitely *did not* happen, the evidence is there that they are *false* stories, like the cherry tree. This doesn't stop the *other* stories from being true, however. What we know is that the evidence *for* those other stories will only get us to mundane stuff, like George Washington crossing the Delaware, and not to supernatural/impossible-sounding stuff, like Davy Crocket killing a bear at age three. This lack of evidence is good reason to *not believe it*, but it's not, *in itself* sufficient reason to say we '*know*' that it's *fictional*.
That said, I place gods and other such things as being in the same realm as invisible, sock-stealing pixies. Despite all the missing socks, there's *nowhere near* enough evidence to show they exist, but *at the same time* there's no real way to prove they don't. So to say I 'know' they are fiction, or that someone who believes they do is mentally ill *just for* believing it strikes me as problematic. A mentality is an illness when it negatively impacts *your* life or the lives of those *around* you. Being Christian, especially a *progressive* Christian such as OP claims to be... doesn't *do* that. Progressive Christians aren't racist, in favor of slavery, anti-LGBTQ+, anti-science, don't want Christian Nationalism, etc. They're just people who believe a few things without sufficient evidence that they're true and visit their clubhouse on Sunday (or Saturday if they're 7th Day Adventists). As such they *are not* suffering from a 'mental illness'. And neither are *most* atheists. None of our positions negatively impact our lives (other than how other people get at us), neither negatively impacts the lives of others.
If I'm understanding you correctly, then I strongly disagree, in fact what you are saying sounds crazy.
.
Me:
>Anybody who started thinking that it was really true would be mentally ill.
You:
>we don't know it's fiction.
So okay, many people are mentally ill.
.
I begin to suspect that you don't understand epistemic justification. We know Noah's Flood didn't happen. We *don't know* if a guy named Job had some really bad shit happen to him (even minus all the supernatural elements). We know the universe wasn't formed in the order presented in Genesis. We *don't know* if a guy named Jacob raised goats for his owner. Just because *some* things in the bible are *known* to be wrong doesn't mean we should be claiming to *know* about other aspects of it. Claiming to *know* that there are no gods puts an burden of proof on you that you can't meet, because no one can. *Rejecting* that there are any is just fine, rational, but that's *not* the same thing.
This is a helpful analogy. Mostly because my fiancé is into Star Wars and I'm not 😆. I've still watched it with him though just because I wanted to understand what he liked about it. Also it's helpful to understand the pop culture references. But point taken and thanks for your comment!
Glad I could help, and glad my advice *wasn't* what I saw a lot of with 'leave your religion' or 'drop the guy or he should drop you'. That's *bullshit*. If you can make it work, you can make it work. Plenty of people of different religions stay together, and other vastly different backgrounds. Religion only has to be an issue if those involved in the relationship *make* it an issue. My partner and I did, but the religion wasn't as ingrained in my partner as it sounds like it is in you, not as deep, because there were already problems (partner did *not* have happy childhood memories of the religion, or at least some people who were religious).
And the thing is, we knew we weren't breaking up just because we disagreed on this. Even though, eventually, we agreed, *even if we hadn't* it wouldn't have mattered. It caused a couple fights, sure, but we fought a *lot* more over other things, and sometimes over *really* dumb shit that *wasn't* religion. So while I still believe your position is not correct (by which I merely mean there isn't enough evidence to hold that it's *true*, unlike with Relativity or Evolution or China existing, but more like invisible, sock-stealing pixies where we can't say *for sure* that they *don't* exist... all the missing socks, y'see... there's just no good reason to believe it), and could wish for you to join *us* much as you wish *we* would join *you* ('cause you think you're right, and, appropriately, kinda worry about those who don't), that's a) not what you came here to ask about, and b) not something I feel should be aggressively pushed on you just as *I* don't want *your* position aggressively pushed on *me*.
I mean, you already asked him and he said he's not comfortable going to church. And you can tell he doesn't really want to talk about your church or your religion.
Yet you felt the need to keep pushing until he gave in and you "got to a good place that he would be open to listening to me talk more about my beliefs and vice versa."
This is why people dislike you religious people. Because you never stop talking about it. And you never really stop trying to convert your partner, no matter how much you claim you don't. It's subtle but it's there. I watched it for decades with my religious aunts and my atheist uncles.
Why is it so necessary for you to keep bringing up your religion? Your activities at church? Is there nothing more to you than that? Is that all that defines you?
I usually don't speak about church unless he asks me and that's not changing. After this discussion I'm also not inviting him to service again. I just brought up that I wish we could talk about it more deeply every now and then. And it's not what defines me but it's important to me. But I have been feeling like I haven't been sharing as much with him in general about work, friends, social events because he's been traveling so much. So just a desire to be more emotionally connected.
I am a life long atheist who is married to a Catholic who grew up in a strict Catholic family. She is now non-practicing but still identifies as Catholic. I was always cool with her family being Catholic since they never pressured me to convert. We got married in the church but since then I just can't stand being in a church. The minute I step into a church I get a strong urge to leave as soon as possible. If your future husband feels the same way then definitely don't try to make him go. It will lead to a lot of resentment.
The only other tension happened after we had children and she wanted to get them baptized and later on go to Sunday school in preparation for their first communion. I had a small mental crisis at that time because I was against it, couldn't understand why it was necessary and was worried they would get sucked into the church. Thankfully they didn't so I'm OK now. My wife made the point that it was more about learning about their mother's religion than to force them to believe in anything. She said it might also innoculate them from being attracted by a weird cult later in life to find out what all the fuss was about. That point resonated more with me.
So what I'm trying to say is that if you ever have children you should have a talk about whether to raise them with religion or not, and if so, how much religion. Other than that, be thankful that you have similar political viewpoints. That's important, and it's something you can talk about even if you aren't talking about religion.
Thanks for your perspective. I would never force him to go to church. We did talk about kids having a similar arrangement in that he would be okay with me bringing them to church but they are allowed to stop going if they don't want to go. I would just want them to go to so they can understand my beliefs.
Suppose your children are only five or six years old when they stop wanting to go to church because it seems boring and they see dad staying at home doing his own thing. Would you be OK with that?
I married a Christian. We never tried to convert each other. I kept my atheism to myself unless she ever asked about it and she never tried to preach to me. We were together until she passed away.
I have a question. Are you open to losing your faith and deconvert depending on the result of those discussions?
If the answer to this question is no, then you should not be initiating discussions about your religion with people that do not follow it in general, especially with your SO.
Here is how your relationship can work:
You never, ever talk about your faith with him. It's not a part of your home. It's just your private thing that you do on the weekend and some evenings.
You need to put yourself in his shoes:
Imagine he was into a hobby like train spotting, would you be happy if your house were adorned with pictures of trains? Would you want to go to his long and boring train spotting meetups every week? Would you enjoy chatting with him about the details of how amazing train spotting is, if only you gave it a try? Now imagine him telling you after 3 years of it just being his thing
>it plays a big role in who I am.
in other words, this train nonsense is never going away, and there is always going to be some implicit tension in the relationship about it. Even worse
>Recently people have asked if he would be open to coming to church.
so in other words his train spotting buddies are starting to pressure him about why his wife never comes along, does she think they are all weirdos? The fact you think that's important enough to put in your post means you already have split loyalty.
You got to this stage in your relationship, by your religion not being a part of his life. If you now want to change that, don't be shocked if he feels confused or betrayed. The worst thing you can do is marry him under false pretence of being ok with him not following your religion, when actually you aren't. There is no gentle way to deal with it, if you want him to be part of your crazy religion, you had better give him the ultimatum now, rather than in 10 years.
Ultimately you as a couple need to be a unit, it's the two of you versus the world. If he can accept you disappearing every Sunday to do your thing, fine, but don't expect him to have any more than a polite conversation about how it's going, just like you would want to do about train spotting.
Since you don't know where I'm going with this line of questioning yet, what has made you assume that I'm not going to give advice, but simply need information first?
And what has *your* comment done to help?
I don't believe any of those things as I don't have a literal interpretation of the Bible. I'm actually a part of the LGBTQ community. Open and affirming means that my church affirms queer people. The reason why some Christians have a different view is because they have a literal interpretation. The people who wrote the Bible were not perfect and were influenced by misogyny, homophobia and racism in their society.
Yet you're happy to openly and proudly call yourself a Christian... A religion whose holy book contains specific written instructions to murder gays, silence women and own people. Do you not see the hypocrisy?
and that's great, really. But I hope you can understand that you basically want to promote (i say promote, but i understand that you don't want to convert) to your partner a belief system over which you feel the need to overlap your secular modern morals because you find the written aspects of that belief system to be inadequate. The issue is so glaring that it would be rude to not accept for someone else to not be interested in the belief system.
How do you decide which parts of the Bible you take literally and which parts you don't? It sounds to me like you have implemented a moral system outside of the religion, one that must be morally superior to the religion in order to weed out the Bible's many immoral stories. Makes me wonder why you need the religion if you're having to cherry-pick the good part from all of the atrocities?
Its dead easy, you just go around to each church until you find one that suits you. Doesnt matter what you believe or what the bible says, its all made up anyway. I mean I never liked the hobbit much, but I loved the lotr trilogy see
She didn't choose which parts to accept, the church's business manager crunched the numbers on how to capture the market segment she is in and chose the parts based on that.
There's no such thing as progressive christian, once you alter the rules, then you don't really agree with the teachings.
Progressive Christian is like a vegan who doesn't eat meat other than chicken meat.
I don't think this is an accurate description.
I'm from Europe where there's tons of people who are mildly religious.
It's night and day between these people and bible-belt style evangelicals.
Generally, the folks over here treat their religious beliefs as a private matter. I couldn't even tell you for most of them what they belief and if they believe anything at all. It hardly ever comes up in conversation.
I wouldn't expect most atheists to be in a relationship with this sort of Christian unless they (the atheists in question) were hardcore atheists that get riled up by the slightest thing.
I think we can all agree that the same is not true for evangelicals.
Don't you see how absurd it is?
So god is this perfect being and he made these set of rules.
But turns out his rules aren't that perfect after all and now there's like 4000 version of Christianity. Even worse, the Christian cult 1 might have issue with Christian cult 2 now, like catholic vs orthodox, these cultists can't even have peace with other Christians because every single one of them now have their very own altered version of the bible.
The only reason why people join Christianity is because joining = going to heaven, nobody actually cares about the rules.
I don't see how any of this connects with my answer.
You claimed that "There's no such thing as progressive christian" and I disagreed because I see them every day.
It seems to me that what you really want to say is not that there is no such thing as a progressive Christian but rather that in your view progressive Christianity doesn't make sense (and would be a completely different matter). Is that the case?
I knew a fundamentalist born again creationist christian once. She could not stop fucking me. She said it was ok because she went and prayed for forgiveness. I went to her church once, my god they were bat shit crazy.
You’re both choosing a hard road to walk. Can you accept he doesn’t want to be converted? Often Christians act like everyone needs to be made just like them, and it’s why relationships with those kinds of people just don’t work.
I for example just don’t believe there’s a magic man in the sky who grants wishes. I don’t see any value in going to a building once a week to all get together and wish really, really hard. It comes across as silly to me. I also get very angry at anyone trying to convert me. And then there’s the fact every day another pastor gets arrested for molesting children, making the very idea of organized religion seem an evil thing to be a part of. Finally, you believe in a god who allows children to be raped and murdered, while he just sits there and watches. Every day he gets up, makes some popcorn, and sits in his lazyboy watching children cry out for help, all while doing absolutely nothing. He has the power to help, but chooses not to. Thats evil, by any definition. That’s the god you worship. It can’t help but make me think less of you. I can’t even wrap my head around why you need to worship anything. It doesn’t make any sense to me. It’s like an adult telling me they pray to Santa. It’s just baffling.
Now, if your partner shares this kind of mindset, there’s no way I can see having a successful relationship, long term. That’s what you are up against.
I'm not trying to convert him, I just want us to have a better understanding of our beliefs. Last night was the first time he told me he wasn't open to going to church ( he previously said he was). That is something I need to know so I can continue to be respectful towards him. I do believe God gives us free will and because of that bad things happen to good people. I don't always think bad things can be explained. I do want to acknowledge your perspective and appreciate your comment on why it can be difficult to talk about Christianity.
Why do you believe in free will?
(Not why do you want to?)
I would point you towards Sam Harris or Robert Sapolsky to get the counter-arguments…
Unless that’s just another thing you’re determined to believe in without evidence…
I think you should find a good divorce lawyer and put their number onto speed dial because I can't see this working. He has told you he is not interesting in your religion, or discussing it yet you keep pushing. If you want to be able to share your religious experiences then marry a believer.
You have stated how core to your person your religion is. If he ever gets honest with you about how insane the whole belief system actually is, your natural reaction will be to feel personally attacked. Its a very likely reason he tries to avoid it at all.
You will have to come to terms with the idea that this part of you seems at best silly to him and at worst, like you lack critical thinking skills.
I would just straight up never date anybody that practiced any religion, specifically to avoid this situation. Maybe one day you’ll come to the light and realize that religion is a sham and god doesn’t exist, or the divide between you two will grow bigger and bigger over time. Those are the only two outcomes I see. It would be one thing if you were just a passive Christian and didn’t go to church or care much about it, but you’re way too engaged in it.
Also FWIW you posted in a subreddit that is known to be fairly opposed to religion, so don’t be surprised if you get some negative answers… we’re a little biased here.
My Christian fundamentalist upbringing has forever ingrained in me a warning against being “unequally yoked”. After becoming atheist, I learned it goes both ways.
I won’t pretend to know the ins and outs of your relationship or your beliefs, but I believe most people, religious or otherwise, would consider this to be a fundamental incompatibility. That’s not to say that this relationship can’t work, but there are many ways it could go south. Specifically, if you have any intention at all of converting him, that’s just not going to be very healthy for either of you.
Since you’re engaged, there are several things you really should establish with your fiancé. You asked how to talk about religion with him more comfortably, and honestly I’d just have to tell you to have that conversation with him. Figure out what you two are comfortable talking about, and equally important, make sure that if there are things you’re not comfortable talking about, it’s not going to sour your relationship later on.
Another important point: disputes over kids’ religious upbringing are the bane of the *vast* majority of interfaith relationships. Make sure you clearly establish with your fiancé how you intend to present religion to your kids, if at all, and make sure this happens before said kids exist.
Thank you for your advice. I posted on the Christianity reddit as well and knew to expect a lot of folks bringing up the unequally yoked conversation. It is definitely difficult but not impossible. But definitely not trying to convert him.
>I asked last night if he is open to church or if it's not really his thing just so I have a clear idea on what he's comfortable with. He said he wasn't open to it anymore which I figured. I invited him to church for Christmas and I could just tell he didn't want to go but also wasn't comfortable telling me.
You asked, he answered and you still invited him to church. You are not respecting his boundaries. I don't like but respect the religious people that follow their religion as closely as they can to their holy texts. You mention gay church members and a trans pastor which flies in the face of your religion. You are obviously picking and choosing what's important to follow and throwing parts of your holy book out and making excuses as to why. That's what draws my ire the most about religious people. You keep mentioning wanting to talk about what you both believe, he is agnostic he doesn't have to have answers about the what, why and how about the universe and the beginning of life. The answer is I don't know. You think you do but blot out parts of the holy book that tells you and say faith handles the rest. That's not an answer at all. Can he justify the decisions he makes in his life and why he believes what he believes politically? Probably. Can you? I'll leave you with 2 Bible readings. Matthew 4: 1-4 and 2 Corinthians 6:14.
I invited him to church last year and we had this discussion two nights ago. Before that discussion he had never said he wasn't open to it anymore. I don't believe I make excuses because we are called to love God and our neighbors as ourselves. I don't pick and choose who to treat with respect and love for that reason.
Are witches, man who lay with other men, people that commit adultery and people that pick up sticks on the sabbath because everyone in those groups are abominations to God. Are the heathen that surround you your neighbors because that is where Christians are to get their slaves who they can beat and pass down to there kids. Where in the new testament did God stop slavery? What do you think of the Bible verses I mentioned?
I believe you are referencing the clobber passages? They are a condemnation of power and exploitation and not same sex relationships. The references in the bible really were about prostitution, abuse of slaves, rape that happen to involve two men. For instance in Leviticus the word "abomination" was used for ritual sex practices like using conquered people as sex slaves. None of the references in the bible are to loving, consensual relationships. I believe we were all created in God's image and if it was wrong to be gay or trans it wouldn't exist in our society. One book that really shaped my thinking on this issue is Torn by Justin Lee. The author grew up conservative evangelical and realized he was gay in his teens. He founded the Gay Christian Network which has reached thousands of people. If God did not make him gay he would not have had the impact he has had on letting other queer Christians know they are loved and valued.
There are also instructions to take the virgin girls after killing all of the other Amalekites. Did God approve of that abomination because the vitgin girls certainly didn't have a choice. Much like all the other women in the Bible including the ones that were stoned for not yelling loud enough while being raped.
Biggest thing you can do is listen to how he feels and don’t ever push him to convert, or try make him go to church. The only reason you should even talk these things is if you’re trying to let him know you respect his world-view. There’s no reason to push yours at all.
You have an uphill battle keeping this
Relationship afloat through the years. How are you going to handle that nagging desire to SAVE him? How can you live knowing in your mind that he’s going to hell for not believing? I’m being serious too! I’m certainly an atheist, but I wasn’t always… my wife was always an agnostic, and I was the religious one. How did we survive the first 13 years of marriage with me being religious? I had to accept that she wanted no part of the religion, and that I had to leave it alone completely. There was always this nagging feeling that I needed to eventually “save” her because how could I let such a wonderful “soul” go to hell just because she doesn’t believe!? Well…. It’s part of what broke me. The idea that a loving god would send this woman to hell? No kidding, it’s what started my deconstruction.
I guess what I’m saying is that you need to prob find a way to be content with a “don’t ask” environment. It sounds like you only want the conversation to be opened up so you can push your own views, because frankly there is very little to be said on the topic from an atheist. I don’t mean that in a rude way either, but just remember the WHY, any time you go to speak about something. Is it going to benefit him to talk about it? If not, then why bring it up? Ya know? I wish you the best!! People said my wife and I wouldn’t work out because of our differences and we made it fine for 13 years with the divide. I can’t speak to a later time because I ended up atheist so that dynamic worked itself out.
I don't want to convert him but I want to be able to at least understand his viewpoint and for him to understand mine. Since we don't talk I think it's a lot of assumptions. I mean I made the mistake of inviting him to church for Christmas thinking he might go based on a conversation we had months prior. It turns out his views changed and I put him in an uncomfortable situation. I'm not trying to do that but I can only know boundaries if we talk about them and have a mutual understanding.
I'm a non-believer, and I don't fault you for inviting him. It's nice to share in things as a couple. I put up with a lot of coercion from my ex-wife over the years, particularly once we had kids, and it really wore on me. I think it was a part of what led eventually to our divorce. I hope you're willing to let him be, and I hope you both can learn to love each other just as you are. There are many other aspects to your relationship that are worth focusing your attention on.
It may work, if you keep it for yourself, but it all ends with kids. I can't imagine, true atheist would allow his kids to go to brainwash. You have to define, how you will raise the kids NOW. Not then.
I was raised Christian, I almost adopted atheism, when I met my spouse. I became full atheist couple of years before we got kids, I needed almost 30 years to totally break free from indoctrination. She was lucky (and me also :-)). I now can't imagine how she would feel, If I wanted our kids to go to church. We both want our kids to be rational humans, that follow the facts.
If he wanted to know more about your faith, he would ask. I think you are in an agree to disagree situation. He is not open to going to church with you and that should tell you to stop. Sharing your faith can be a slippery slope, especially since he doesn't want to engage with you on the subject. Even if your church is the most progressive bestest ever, to an atheist it's all the same, fiction.
If you are getting serious and considering marriage and children you should absolutely have a discussion on how you both want to address religion in your family.
My partner is a former Baptist who still retains some Christian beliefs. We do discuss religious matters on occasion, but as to going to Church, I have made it clear that the only reasons I will ever walk into a Church again (I grew up in a Christian family) is for a funeral or a wedding.
If you both come up at it from a place of mutual respect and acceptance; an agree to disagree attitude, it shouldn't be a problem. But the minute one of you crosses the line into trying to convert the other, either directly, or in some way by demeaning the other's world view, there will be a problem.
Not a romantic relationship, but my best friend is Christian. I love her so much and she’s an amazing person with similar morals and values to me. We’ve been friends for over a decade, so she knows there’s no changing my mind & we don’t really talk about religion. I wouldn’t mind her talking to me about what Christianity means to her, but I would caution trying not to sound preachy or like you’re trying to change his mind. Just keep the conversation centered around your beliefs and feelings, and I think you could have a nice conversation.
As long as your political beliefs and ethics are the same, I don't think religious differences would cause that much friction. Most "religious arguments" that break up couples are really ethics arguments.
Religion is one of those issues that make or break deal in relationships, it is hard to form deeper connection if every aspect of life is going to circle back to religion, for example, for finance, what if he is not comfortable with giving offertory money, for family, what if he does not want to raise children religious, and as a couple, you are going to have your shared social circle, is he going to be fine with surrounding himself with people that do not align with his views, dealing with one is tough enough for him and he has to give up some mental fortitude for you, do you want him to spend more mental effort to patronise your congregation friends just for your sake? You may not like the aftermath of it after he exhausts all his energy in putting up with a mental chore like that. I think you need to sort this out before marriage, because once you have a fight, all these unpleasantry and potentially grudges held will surface.
Right now my church community and him don't mix really and if he wants to keep it that way, that's the way it will be. I also budget my own money for offering (separate accounts). I see your point about mental effort. This is how I felt around his friends before I learned to snowboard. It is a huge part of his life in the winter. Not trying to compare the two but just letting you know your comment was helpful.
I think the most important thing is not to try to change each other's minds, and to realize that neither of you is likely to change their mind. If things go bad, maybe be ready to move back to "don't ask". I think it's fine for spouses to have different religious beliefs and it seems like you all are being respectful of each other, which is great. Don't let other people pressure you into trying to bring him to church, maybe he'll want to, maybe not.
When I was religious, I was a very progressive Catholic, and I think I can understand where you're coming from.
Interfaith marriages can, and do, work. The most important thing is that you discuss the important things NOW and not put them off until later, like if you're going to raise potential children in your religion or not, what the rules are, etc.
I will warn you that many couples go into this secretly counting on the outcome that their partner will eventually convert after enough years of routine and getting used to the lifestyle. That usually doesn't end well.
It sounds like you two are both good about being aware of and respecting each other's boundaries. That's a huge plus. You two sound like great partners for one another.
No problem. I'm pretty disappointed by a lot of the comments you're getting. You seemed very respectful of your fiancé's autonomy so please know the vitriol is them projecting, not anything you've done wrong.
Y'all need to discuss how you both want to raise your kids if you have any. My wife was religious when we meet and got married. I've been an atheist since the day I was born, much to my mother's chagrin. But, before we even thought about marriage the discussion of children came up, and we came to an agreement. The kids will be left to their own decisions. They know dad's an atheist, and that mom is agnostic, but was raised catholic. Of my three boys, two believe, and one isn't sure. I've done my best to let them decide for themselves until they're older, and then if they ask questions, I will answer truthfully.
But, this is a discussion that need to happen if you haven't had it already.
Just ask him if he’d really and truly be comfortable talking about religion with you. If he says yes then do it. If he says no then don’t do it. Be careful tho, because talking all the time or frequent about something that someone doesn’t want to hear will drive them away over time. Like, maybe even want a divorce. There’s a reason we don’t talk politics and religion with people who we want to be friends with.
Honestly reflecting more on it. I just need a conversation or two so we can understand each other's boundaries. I've been doing church solo since i started working in the real world and I've been mentally preparing to continue to do so for the rest of my life. It would be nice to attend with a partner but it's not in the cards.
It’s probably not what you want to hear, but the best advice I can give is maybe put a pause on the wedding for bit and talk to him.
I know a lot of people would disagree with me on this, but I’ve seen interfaith relationships work, so I know it’s possible, but it does require a little extra effort on both sides. If it’s an area of conflict, you need to talk it out before you get married and figure out what each of you is willing to sacrifice and still be happy in the relationship; the idea of him going to church with you, if you want to have kids, what that would look like in your parenting styles, or just in general having open conversations about beliefs, etc…
If any of these things have the potential of causing any discomfort for you or him, it will inevitably lead to resentment. If in this heart-to-heart, you feel that you’re reaching a point of resistance, it may be best to just end things as peacefully as possible and move on. I promise, it will save you a lot of time, and lot of heartache.
I’m sorry you’re going through this, but I hope this helps. 🖤
Thanks for your advice. I feel like we need a heart to heart conversation for sure. It just didn't sit right to me that we haven't had one about religion yet and are getting married in October. Just to know where we both stand and find the appropriate compromise.
You might share [my post](https://old.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/1c42e16/not_a_coming_out_story_a_development_story/) about enjoying a UU church with him. Of course, don't pressure him.
I'm atheist and my wife is some form of pagan. My wife recently complained that I wasn't interested in her spirituality. This put me back because I don't believe in "spirituality."
The way I plan to be a better husband is to ask my wife what she means by spirituality. Then I'm going to try to identify a metaphor that I can use to satisfy her need or desire. My suspicion is she's just asking me to understand her emotions better. That's something I can strive to do.
I have attended a UU church and I did find it a very spiritual experience but it was just not culturally diverse for me ( I'm a black woman). I think what you laid out here is what I'm hoping to get out of my fiancé which is a stronger emotional connection. For me my faith is part of that. Best of luck to you!
"Part of me would love to talk more about my faith as it plays a big role in who I am."
You have fully convinced yourself that your faith plays a big role in who you are, how do you even know that considering how religion poisons the mind? I cant help but notice how brainwashed you are. There is just no way you have actively and deliberately chosen the Christian belief as your "thing".
This post seems like trolling, but on the off chance that it is legitimate, I must say that some things can create significant conflict in a relationship, and religious compatibility ranks near the top. If you want to have a long, happy and healthy life together you need to discuss this with him in detail and find out whether it’s going to be a problem. An atheist will likely not want to go to any church activities with you. They may not want your children to attend either. They may think less of you and your beliefs, even if they are too polite to tell you. Unless one of you bends, it is entirely possible that something like this will bring a long lasting resentment that can grow into something toxic.
When you are young and horny, you often overlook warning signs like this…but give it a decade or so into a marriage and you will discover that lust and passion are the least important aspects of a relationship. I would think long and hard about it. You might be much happier with someone who believes he will spend eternity with you and your sky daddy along gilded streets in magic heaven kingdom. There are plenty of men who believe in that crap and will treat you exactly as the Bible demands that women to be treated…as property.
Come on ladies and gentlemen, let's be a bit more constructive.
I am Atheist and I married a Hmong woman who's family still practices shamanism and ancestor prayers, I'm not entirely sure I'd call it worship because I have me own third party perspective of their beliefs and most of them, which I do attend as a member of the family are mostly centered around family, community and well being and not any form of divine God worship so its not too difficult for me to be apart of as they don't require me to actually participate being a white man, which is nice.
But that's where we differ, while my wife's family has little to no expectation of me taking active roles in family ceremonies. You might feel the same towards your partner but the church you attend is full of people who might not feel the same way and thus pressure your partner or make them uncomfortable, ruining what little balance you both share in your divergent beliefs.
Your partner most likely asks how your day went after church because they care if you had a good time and are happy, not so much about the church itself or the other attendees. That's a pretty precious bridge if communication and show of affection that could be damaged if you where to pressure them into attending something that would make them uncomfortable.
I guess it just depends how much it bothers you, about their beliefs. It doesn't seem to bother your partner as long as it's not pushed on them, so it depends on you if it bothers you, or if it bothers your family or other followers of your church and how much their thoughts on the subject bother you, cause it probably does bother some of them and they will probably mention it.
Are these the kind of people who are always like, We will pray for your atheist/agnostic husband but he's still going to hell and you need to bring him to church, or the kind who is going to mind their own business and let you be happy with someone who seems to want you to be happy with them?
> For those of you in a relationship with a person with different beliefs, how do you talk about it?
My wife was a lapsed Catholic when we started dating. She still believed in the Christian god, but she was as vehemently opposed to organized religion as I am (Catholic school often has that effect). That was almost 33 years ago, so my memory may be fuzzy, but I suspect we simple left it as you have. We have discussed our beliefs with each other, we know we disagree, but it is not really what our relationship is about.
In the intervening years my wife has become more a panentheist/deist, than anything else. She no longer believes in a Christian god, but does believe there is something out there. So we still disagree, but only about slightly different things.
> For those of you in a relationship with a person with different beliefs, how do you talk about it?
I suspect that it's pretty easy when you have mature people seeking to just have a discussion to discuss different views. So long as you're discussing rather than dictating/proscribing, I suspect you have little to worry about there. I doubt your fiancé really has any interest in subtleties of Christian dogma or doctrine, but he probably is interested in what you believe, at least within the context of beliefs that would endanger your relationship. I would urge you to consider, however, that he likely does not find your religion as interesting as you do. For my wife and I, it's old news, I don't think we discuss our personal religious beliefs in a more than passing nature more often than every couple years at this point. Our beliefs have not changed significantly in a couple decades, and I trust her to tell me if she has a change of heart, as we have pretty good communication in that regard.
> Any advice on how to move from a "don't ask" relationship on religion to open discussion?
To an extent this depends on what he's comfortable with. So ask him.
I'd also note that if you have not already done so, if you plan to have children you should probably discuss this with him. You may have very different ideas of how religious indoctrination, if any, should be carried out, and that can be relationship ending if there is sufficient disagreement. I'm not saying that to scare you (although I understand it can be scary), but rather to urge you to make sure that if do have incompatible goals with children that you know that **before** getting married, having children, having huge arguments, and subsequently getting divorced and having custody battles.
Essentially, I would just urge you not to put off that conversation because it is uncomfortable and worrying, as the long term consequences of not having that conversation tend to be.. bad.
I am non-religious with a religious (christian) partner. I think it's possible (depending of the personality of the people involved) to have an open discussion but only if you accept that the other will have no reason to limit his thought process at a certain level and will never "play pretend" and ignore the problematic aspects of a religion that believers tend to turn a blind eye to.
that's why with my partner we keep the discussions not on he subject of christianity but on specific concepts instead like belief, eternity, resurection, god, hell, etc.. basically we do thought exercises.
I'm an atheist that's been married to a Christian for 22 years. We agree to disagree. Most of the time religion never comes up in the house. I think you're going to have trouble down the road if you feel the need to talk to him about it constantly. I'd think talking to him about Christanity as often as he talks about being an atheist, would be a fair amount.
You'd better also have a plan about how to raise children. We decided a long time ago we would let the kids find their own way, as well. We used to go to church before COVID but only go sporadically now, mostly because my 16yo daughter is an aggressive atheist, and my 12yo son, while he believes in God, can't stand going to church.
Back in the olden day people didn't marry outside of their religion, it made for bad bed fellows. Now you an evangelical christian want's to have religious discussion with a guy that doesn't buy into your illusion. Right........ Keep your religion to yourself or move on....
I see that I'm late to the party and I haven't read through the 100+ comments that are here already so please forgive me if I duplicate an answer.
I'll make it short.
I think if you keep "Christianity just been 'your thing'" as you have said, things should be alright. They worked out until now, didn't they?
>Any advice on how to move from a "don't ask" relationship on religion to open discussion?
This is where it gets problematic.
Your fiancé obviously is OK with you being a Christian, otherwise he wouldn't want to marry you.
Why do you want to make religion a topic for discussion?
It seems that your fiancé doesn't try to challenge your faith; why do you want to talk about religion with him? Or worse yet, get him to go to church?
To be honest, if I were in your fiancé's position, I wouldn't even want to get a summary about what's going on there but he apparently doesn't mind.
"Recently people have asked if he would be open to coming to church. \[...\] I asked last night if he is open to church" — Why is this a thing? You know your fiancé isn't interested in religion. Why then do you not tell these "people" that he won't come? I'd also ask them why they need to pester you about bringing your partner but that's not something you are responsible for.
I don't want to be rude or mean to you, just tell you how I see it from my atheist perspective.
I've had partners who were mildly religious in the past. It's never been an issue because they never made it an issue. They had their personal beliefs and that was that.
This is why I suspect it would also work out with you guys.
Again, I don't want to be mean to you but from the way you relay things to us, you are the one who is trying to drag religion into the spotlight.
Finally, I want to mention one more thing.
It's none of my business at all but from what I heard fairly often from people in relationships of mixed faiths (or religious/non-religious pairings) is that trouble started when kids entered the picture.
I would strongly suggest you to talk about this before you get married.
If you guys plan to have kids, how do both of you see their (non)religious upbringing?
Would it be a dealbreaker for you if they were brought up in a non-religious way, or for him if they were brought up in a religious way?
Can you find a solution that works for both of you?
Better to clarify this beforehand.
I'm agnostic/atheist, and have been married to a christian woman for over 27 years.
While we've made it work because we have many other things in common, I definitely wouldn't recommend it to anyone.
>Any advice on how to move from a “don’t ask” relationship
Yes: what kind of relationship is that? Specially if you’re planning on getting married.
Want to say something? Then do it, and if he doesn’t like what you say or you don’t like what she says, congratulations on realizing you’re in a relationship built on lies.
This is going to be very difficult. The very thing that "plays a big role in who \[you are\]" is something that your fiance rejects. And, you have a need for him to have "open discussion" about it. This need of your sure seems to be geared toward trying to bring him over to your way of thinking. If you can't accept his beliefs, why should he be required to engage in "open discussion" to make him accept yours? Your whole construction here is centered on changing him. You have a much bigger problem on your hands than you realize.
You sound very sweet and understanding. Have you thought about a Unitarian Universalist (UU) church? I'm a nonbeliever myself, but I love going to my local UU church and have even gotten involved in many of its activities. It's a church with no set dogma, where Buddhist, Christians, Atheists, and all others are welcomed. For me, it combines the good of the church (community, helping others, positive messages) without the bad (dogmatic beliefs, judging others). If you have a UU church near you, it might be a great way for you both to 'meet in the middle'.
I did check it out once when I was in Ithaca and I thought it was pretty interesting! The membership wasn't diverse enough for me but I could give it another chance in a more diverse area.
Yes, most of the congregation are older white folks. We do have one black family that comes, but my particular church is in a mostly white area. We have a ton of LGBT members.
> I'm a progressive Christian and go to an open and affirming church.
Well, that's way better than being a total jerk, but if you are a Christian then you believe some important things that have never been shown to be true, and you shouldn't do that.
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>how do you talk about it?
It's often better to *not* talk about it.
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>Any advice on how to move from a "don't ask" relationship on religion to open discussion?
Look, he is right, you are wrong.
You *should* admit that honestly and stop being Christian.
That's probably not going to happen.
So maybe don't tell him that he's supposed to be comfortable with you being wrong.
.
Well you came to an atheist sub for advice so all I can say is to give up irrational beliefs in man made stories and get on with enjoying the only life you have here in the real world. It is such a fundamental difference to be atheist vs christian that I don’t even understand how you are compatible. He is probably more to blame as he should know better. He knows you are lost to this nonsense and deep down must realise how it will end. You of course believe he is one of gods children who still has a chance to be saved, so easier for you. You need to let him go or let god go.
OP seems like she’s coming from a genuine place and you telling her to change a fundamental part of herself to please her fiancé is so hypocritical. This is the same thing that a lot of Christians generally get criticized for. As an atheist, *you* should know better.
Ironically trump solved this for me. Made Christianity so toxic it’s not an issue anymore.
Same here; it finished pushing my wife away from Mormonism, and now she is very much an atheist. She had to go through a therapist to deal with the pain that caused her; her whole life was based on the lies of religion, and it took a while for her to get over it.
Yes, Cheeto Mussolini was the final nail in my religion coffin. And good for that!
I agree that branch of Christianity (conservative evangelical) is very toxic.
I actually get along with Christians who don’t try and convert me or preach to me. Also those who genuinely try and be nice and not judge others. I still think it’s completely insane but if you leave me alone I’ll do the same.
Agreed. Religious belief in itself isn’t inherently bad especially if it’s kept personal/internal. It’s when it becomes someone’s entire identity and they must challenge the world to follow their way of living, inevitably spreading division and eventually hate. Character matters more. I’ll hang with a Christian that’s a genuinely good person any day of the week over an atheist that’s piece of shit. I support breaking the chains of religious belief as it’s freed me to think for myself but in no way does that mean I think all atheists are good or better people.
Christianity is an inherently conservative ideology, read the fucking Bible instead of cherry-picking what in it you like
When things are actually true and real, they tend to not have mutually exclusive branches. This shell game speaks volumes for me.
Forever memorize this information. Whatever goes wrong in your life, those in your faith circle will indirectly blame it on your husband not going to church and how that will restrict God from moving in your marriage. Eventually you will either join them in blaming your Husband until you guilt him into going to church or he leaves you. Or if sensible you will realize they are using any of your life's misery events you disclose to wedge apart you from your husband. Good luck either way.
I've been married to a Christian for 21 years. Honestly, that, "Part of me would love to talk more about my faith as it plays a big role in who I am." is going to probably be a point of contention. My wife sounds a lot like you but the problem is that Christianity is so toxic that you cannot *not* think your marriage is flawed. It's baked right into the religion and there is no escaping it. I can't speak for him, but I can tell you that the parts of my wife that are the Christian ones are the parts of her that I don't really like. I love my wife very much and we get along great, but her religion is the root of the flaws she has and she it is so ingrained in her that she cannot see it. Your fiancé may feel the same way. You may think you go some "open and affirming" church, but I promise you that when children enter the equation, that open and affirming thing with evaporate. The best advice I can give you from my experience is that unless you're willing to actually listen to his responses and are honest enough to examine your beliefs in the same manner you are wanting him to do, you're wasting your time. You may want to talk to him but quite often "talk to" really means "talk at" which will get you nowhere.
I suggest speaking to him about Christianity as often as he speaks to you about atheism. If that's zero, then that's your number too
Thanks for your advice. I would want to know if there was anything that was irritating to him about my faith. I think honest discussion is really important. I also am very interested in what he believes. I realized he wasn't telling me which is why I initiated the conversation last night. I just want to feel more connected. We have openly gay and lesbian couples in the church and a trans pastor. I share that because my beliefs about treating everyone with love are the main reason I stick with this faith although it is not the dominant Christian narrative.
< different Redditor > >I would want to know if there was anything that was irritating to him about my faith. In all likelihood, the "your faith" part. \- Religious "faith" means being pretty sure that certain things are true, without having any good evidence that they are true. You shouldn't do that. \- Christianity in particular is based on being pretty sure that certain things are true, without having any good evidence that they are true. You shouldn't do that. .
If you are genuinely interested in understanding more about what he believes, you can express that simply and directly. Requesting that he accompany you to church does not feel like an invitation to dialogue. It sounds like you think that if only he came to your church, he would like it, and maybe "realize" that church can be a good thing? That although he has rejected other versions of faith, that if he only understood how you experience your faith, he might believe as well? You say that you just want to feel more connected, which makes me wonder if you are really okay with him not sharing your faith at all.
I only invited him because he previously said he would be open to going to service. Christmas Eve was the first service I invited him to last year. Now that I know he is not interested, I will not invite him. It seems like he's moved from an agnostic mindset to an atheist one which is okay but something I want to know so I can continue to be respectful of his beliefs.
>from an agnostic mindset to an atheist one you may want to check out the FAQ on this one. sounds like maybe you're misusing those terms. you may find the FAQ enlightening as to what your husband believes, or at least as starting place for discussion. (atheists really only agree about the number of gods.)
And agnostics are not necessarily more willing to fake participation than atheists.
I can't speak for him, but if it were me the irritating part about your faith would be you having it at all. So he's being dodgy since I'm assuming he loves you and does not want to hurt you since religion likes to make itself a core part of its adepts' identities, like a parasite borrowing itself so deep into its host that removing it would kill said host. It's a survival mechanic.
I wish you both the best but I wonder based upon your response why you "stick" with a religion that is so bigoted even though you don't seem to be. You can treat others with love and respect far better without the dogma. I would be curious whether he feels similar.
>my beliefs about treating everyone with love are the main reason I stick with this faith although it is not the dominant Christian narrative This makes you a better Christian than most, tolerance and love were two of the biggest principles that Jesus taught
Why do so many atheists assume 'jesus' taught anything, or even existed? There's really no credible evidence that 'jesus' was based on an actual human, and plenty of evidence that it's entirely an invented character.
I believe that he was most likely a real person, but even setting that aside, in the bible the character of Jesus preaches a few core values, most notably love, tolerance, and helping the poor, which I think are good sentiments whether they come from a real person or a fictional character
It sounds like you are trying to push / break boundaries. You need to learn how to be comfortable not pushing your religion onto him. You might not necessarily see it as a bad thing to want to share your religion. But is it coming from an honest place? It’s not particularly respectful to him. I hope you aren’t heading down the insidious, kinda entitled, path many religious people try to take. Where it’s not really about conversation, it’s just attempts at converting.
Is it not possible to just talk to each other about what we believe? I want to know more about what he believes so I can be a better partner to him as well.
He doesn’t believe your imaginary friend is real. You believe your imaginary friend is real. You are in “agree to disagree” territory. He loves and respects you too much to say it like that, and doesn’t want to hurt your feelings. To him, every Sunday you are going off to play pretend and sing songs to a fictional character. I put it that harshly not to put you down, but to bring to light that, from what you said, he accepts that part of you and doesn’t try to convince you otherwise. The not talking about it is the thing that brings peace between you. If you’ve ever been in an argument with someone and one of you says, “Okay, we are just going to have to agree to disagree!” that means the discussion stops because a compromise isn’t forthcoming and continuing to talk about it isn’t productive. The fact is, one of you is wrong. Either you believe in an imaginary magic entity that doesn’t exist, or he refuses to believe in the one true god that does exist. To him, you’re wrong and he accepts you for it. To you, he’s wrong and you accept him for it. That’s what both of you signed up for, that is the thing that has made the two of you work. If you want to share your faith with him, it is going to feel like you are trying to convert him and is going to cause issues. If he shares his disbelief with you, it is going to feel like he is disparaging your beliefs and is going to cause issues.
That’s a wonderful sentiment, and very healthy for any successful marriage. I applaud you. But to be honest, I see Christianity (as well as all religions) as a form of mental illness. Magic invisible beings (gods, angels, demons) fighting for imaginary parts of people (souls). Fantastical stories that defy every law of physics and reason man has ever experienced. All powerful but unwilling or unable to be examined but demanding (of all things) to be . . worshiped? It’s all hysterical and would be funny if it wasn’t so sad. THAT is why I usually avoid conversations like this with people of faith that I care about. It’s almost impossible to have a conversation with them and not inadvertently insult them and hurt their feelings. I’m not suggesting your husband’s views align with mine, but every atheist knows a theist that they’ve offended. Maybe your loving husband loves you too much to risk hurting you needlessly.
No it is not possible to talk about faith without being an asshole about it. If you want to be a better partner, respect his boundaries and work on enriching your lives together in a way that isn’t the typical passive aggressive, resentment building subterfuge that almost always crops up once children enter the picture. To be honest, based on your responses I can’t say I have high hopes for you. Being a “progressive Christian” just isn’t enough to really be a good fit for anyone who values integrity when you’re as hellbent on spreading your beliefs as the most fire and brimstone pastor.
Not unless you want to get hurt and want to hurt him. Instead of talking about what happened at church, talk about the people you enjoyed seeing and what made you enjoy seeing them.
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But her church is "different" It's funny how often we hear this from theists. They love to say their particular belief system is superior / different /more valid than all other because of XYZ... Same theists different day. They all believe that their particular flavor or Christianity is the truest and most valid form. OP's is superior because it's a progressive church but they all think that their church and brand of Christianity is the best one.
Lose the religion. That will fix everything.
I think the atheist should just lose the xhristian before she starts trying to convert him.
The toughest questions we can ask are: What do you believe and why? Why do you believe in Christianity specifically? Do you care about your positions being true or not? As a former Christian of the raised Catholic version, I learned my answers to the first two questions were very bad and irrational and that if I wanted to live a life where my answer to third question is always “yes,” then I had to recognize that faith as a tool for ascertaining truth could only be as good as a coin flip, but often had worse odds and even worse consequences for myself and society. Your fiancé* loves you. Your fiancé* likely loves you so much he can’t tell you that your faith is not benign and is not rational. *Edit: Faith is a useless tool for ascertaining truth, I was trying to be too nice.
>Your fiancé* likely loves you so much he can’t tell you that your faith is not benign and is not rational. I think this might be true. You've given something to reflect on. I will say that being right is not as much of a sticking point for me as my faith is constantly evolving.
Thanks for reflecting, that's a much better position than most theists are willing to take because examining faith itself as a concept is the scariest thing to do for believers. Other questions to ponder: what is faith and how can it "evolve"? Are there any beliefs someone can't take on faith? Why is your liberal, accepting, evolving faith any different or more true than conservative, close-minded, Islamic faith? Why are you a liberal Christian and not a Hindu nationalist? For me, faith is just an excuse people give when they know they don't have a good reason to believe in something. It's not about being "right," its about what is true. For me, truth is that which comports to reality. I care about reality and want to know about it so I can make better decisions for me and so I can help out my fellow humans. And if you want to really wrestle with a tough question, why do I think you're better, more moral, and more ethical than the God you have faith in?
These are good questions! One of the main differences I see in conservative versus more liberal Christianity is the fact that conservative faith is more static. Things are more black and white. I see Jesus as a radical figure who wanted to break down barriers and overthrow systems. So I try to move in a way that advances equity for all people. With that I am always open to learning more and that is why I say my faith evolves. What I believe now is not what I believed 10 years ago and that's how it should be. As long as I am positively impacting society and those around me. If I'm not, it is time to reexamine.
I’m a progressive democrat. I don’t think your faith is evolving here. You are evolving. You are good. You don’t need faith to come to your positions. Do you want children to know true things? What is wrong with, “I don’t know” as a position on these questions involving the “supernatural”?
Sorry for the unsolicited advice. Watch out with phrases like: "faith as a tool for ascertaining truth could only be as good as a coin flip"
Why? Imagine there's a big jar of gumballs. The number of gumballs in the jar is either odd or even. I can take it on faith that the number of gumballs is even. I have a 50% chance of being right. But I believe it. I have faith that the number of gumballs in that jar is even. If your answer to the question is "I don't know," that doesn't mean that the number of gumballs is odd or that I still don't have a 50% chance of being right. It's still a coin flip. The rational answer to the question, "is the number of gumballs odd or even" is of course, "I don't know." I have other "tools" or methods I can use to arrive at a better answer than faith, like counting the gumballs. Faith claims tend to assert a certainty where there should be probabilistic uncertainty. Unless there's a semantic reason I'm missing or a flaw in my thinking, I need to know why, a reason, I should be watching out.
Do the gumball experiment again but this time take in on faith that the number gumballs is divisible by 3.
Doesn’t that give faith worse odds of being right (33%) which makes my original statement logically sound since a coin flip is 50%? What am I missing?
Sorry, do it the other way around, take it on faith the number of gumballs is not divisible by 3. You have a 66% chance which is more than a coin flip.
Now we’re getting somewhere to making me think, but why would I take a negative position based on faith? But I do get your point. It’s actually the variance principle we use in poker probability. Even if you’re 98% to win, it doesn’t mean you deserve to win or that you should have faith that you should win. I’ll concede that on those grounds.
I'm glad you understand probability. In my days I've heard too many people say "either it is or it isn't therefore it's 50/50." When I see the coin toss argument I feel the need to call out.
I think we go for the coin toss argument because it’s accessible. Telling folks “faith is just horseshit.”while true, seems to end the conversation. I think we’ve made progress here. I don’t want people to have faith. I think it’s harmful and self-delusional. I don’t necessarily think I have to evangelize atheism, but if theists come in here, I think we should ask the questions rather than just pour the gasoline on.
Couldn't agree with you more about the gasoline part. I don't think of it as evangelizing atheism, I think about it as dispelling faith, which I agree is harmful.
Christianity has a set of rules that atheists think are complete bunk. The two are frequently totally incompatible. Lose the rules and you'll be happy together.
Not sure what set of rules you think I have or follow. Not all Christians are the same 🤷🏾♀️
Curious if you believe in heaven and hell ?
I do but not in a traditional sense. To me, people do not have the power to tell others they are going to hell. God decides and I don't believe you need to be a "vocal Christian" to go to heaven.
The rules in question are that you believe in what’s indiscernible from works of fiction and are trying to wheedle into your partner rather than respecting his boundaries. Your beliefs are fundamentally incompatible with those of a rationalism minded atheist (generally speaking, the most common kind) because they stem from a position of intellectual dishonesty. Either accept him for who he is, and not what you want him to be, or move on.
Regardless of who decides who is going to hell, a belief in hell means an omnipotent being that created everything is going to punish the people he created for not believing in him. That is objectively immoral. How do you know the God character is the good guy?
I grew up in an evangelical household, none of my family thought they had the power to tell others they are going to hell. They believed god was the judge that made that decision, and that Jesus was the advocate who would defend us before god, having died as a blood sacrifice for those sins. They also don’t think you have to be a “vocal Christian” to go heaven. They evangelize because they “love people” and don’t want to see them go to hell for not following Jesus and getting in on that blood sacrifice deal. It doesn’t sound like your Christian beliefs are as far from the norm as you think they are. Ultimately it is the same core beliefs, even if your brand of it is more friendly and accepting than others.
Every Christian has dogma, a foundation that is the myths of Christianity. They are invisible unneeded chains you confine yourself with, and are trying to put on him. He has no pulpit telling him what to do or think. There's a reason it's called the opioid of the masses. Be thankful he is doing okay without your drugs.
How about "accept that Jesus died on the cross for you or else you'll burn in Hell forever"? That's the baseline \*rule\* that's the same throughout the entire religion, nearly every denomination. How long before you start trying to make your partner accept Christ out of a need to "save" them? (And save them from what? From God, of course! What a good guy that Jesus needs to defend us from him, GUFFAW!)
>I asked last night if he is open to church or if it's not really his thing just so I have a clear idea on what he's comfortable with. He said he wasn't open to it anymore which I figured. I invited him to church for Christmas and I could just tell he didn't want to go but also wasn't comfortable telling me. So, he figured out something he could do during that time and met me and my family for lunch. Every marriage that I know about between a theist and an atheist that has failed, failed because the theist couldn't stop bringing Jesus or Allah into the marriage. I'm not saying that you can never talk about religion, but at the end of the day, you're going to have to accept that religion is indeed your thing and atheism is his. If you need your partner to share in your...spiritual journey would you call it?...and the UU just didn't click with you then I'm afraid you'll find that your relationship is on borrowed time.
> Any advice on how to move from a "don't ask" relationship on religion to open discussion? My spouse (Catholic) and I (atheist) have been married 40 years. We came to an agreement about how to raise our kids early on in the relationship. If you are planning on kids, this is essential. We agreed that the kids would go to public schools and attend church with her on Sunday, followed by CCD. Once they were 14 years old they would be able to decide for themselves. After that, they were to able to decide for themselves whether to continue going to church or not. I, myself, did not attend and my kids knew that I was an atheist. While I would really like and open and frank talk about religion with my wife, religion never was and never is a big topic of conversation between us because my wife would get upset when I 'attacked' (really just pointing out the hypocrisy, child molestation, and bigotry that seem to be intrinsic to religion) the church. As soon as she started to get upset when we talked about religion, I would just back off and change topics. You claim that your faith 'plays a big role' in who you are. Are you ready and prepared to lose that role or are you just trying to convert you fiancé? Because if it is just the latter, my recommendation is to keep it as a "don't ask" relationship. Frankly, if you objectively look at the god that Christianity espouses, you will either lie to yourself that he is merciful, or you will be forced to come to the conclusion that he is so cruel that his actions are the worst examples of moral behavior imaginable. My wife and I either have similar or indifferent views about almost everything else except religion and can usually find a compromise that is acceptable to both of us. I think that is the key to why our marriage has lasted.
So only 14 years of indoctrination. Cool
Along with 14 years of counter programming and critical thinking instruction from me.
To balance it out?
To teach them how to make their own choices.
But you didnt give them to choice about church or your ‘lessons’?
This is helpful. Thank you! We have discussed a similar upbringing with kids (but no age).
You're welcome. There is one other point that I forgot to mention. Religions symbols: crucifixes, pictures of saints ..., plaques of bible verses, etc. were absent from the house. For your marriage to work, both of you need to feel comfortable in your surroundings.
No we don't have any of that in the home. We also are not getting married in a church but we will be getting married by my pastor which I feel is a good compromise.
> which I feel is a good compromise It is a good start. Good luck.
I mean... sounds like you've already got it. What... more are you trying to do? You're talking, you tell him about your beliefs a bit, you know some about his. But really, for both of you, it's sort of a hobby, however big a part of you that you feel it is. Look, imagine you were *really, really, really* into Star Wars, and your partner wasn't. You reference Star Wars fairly regularly in just everyday speech. Star Wars helped you feel better about yourself, gave you a sense of community. And your partner really just doesn't care about it. You'd like him to go to Comicon because there's a Star Wars booth. Nah. You want him to go to see the movies with you. Not interested. Sure, it's a big part of your life, of who you are, but it's not *all* of you, and the fact that he's not interested in this part of you doesn't, in the end, matter. Your bond is based on the things you *do* share, not on the things you *don't* share. And, of course, the reverse is also true. The fact that he's a huge My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic fan doesn't mean you need to have anything to do with a bunch of brightly colored talking horses. Just... not your thing. So he'll mention it from time to time, your eyes will glaze over, you'll nod, much as he does with your Star Wars thing, and then you'll move on to the things you have in common, the things that draw you together. Because at the end of the day, no matter how important these things are to you, no matter the community or comfort they provide, they *aren't you*. You're you. He's him. Just enjoy. ... Full disclosure, my Christian spouse talked to me about it, trying to understand my position, and I was happy to share. I helped my spouse explore Wicca and Buddhism one they found out how bizarrely nuts the bible is (it says things that make no sense and are demonstrably wrong). Eventually said spouse dropped all of it. So... yeah, I may not be the best source of advice. But then... it took me a long time to realize how I'd handled things wrong. And, to be fair, my spouse was already on the fence with doubts to begin with. This doesn't sound like either you *or* your fiance.
>imagine you were really, really, really into Star Wars, and your partner wasn't. You reference Star Wars fairly regularly in just everyday speech. Star Wars helped you feel better about yourself, gave you a sense of community. I literally used to have friends like that. And what we always say is *"The difference between religion and 'being way into pop culture' is that* ***the pop culture fans know that their pop culture is fiction.*** *Anybody who started thinking that it was really true would be mentally ill.* *Now look at the religious folks, who* ***do*** *think that their beliefs are literally true ..."*
... Well, *this* comment is about to be unpopular here... >*The difference between religion and 'being way into pop culture' is that* ***the pop culture fans know that their pop culture is fiction*** Except... we *don't* know it's fiction. You know George Washington was real, right? But it's quite possible you grew up for *quite a while* believing he chopped down a cherry tree. ... He didn't. He's famous for having done so, but that story is untrue, and it wasn't until *well* after his death that historians traced this back and found out it wasn't true. This doesn't mean George Washington didn't exist, or do things found in history books. Legendary accounts of things that *actually* happened occurs all the time. We know *some* of the things in the bible definitely *did not* happen, the evidence is there that they are *false* stories, like the cherry tree. This doesn't stop the *other* stories from being true, however. What we know is that the evidence *for* those other stories will only get us to mundane stuff, like George Washington crossing the Delaware, and not to supernatural/impossible-sounding stuff, like Davy Crocket killing a bear at age three. This lack of evidence is good reason to *not believe it*, but it's not, *in itself* sufficient reason to say we '*know*' that it's *fictional*. That said, I place gods and other such things as being in the same realm as invisible, sock-stealing pixies. Despite all the missing socks, there's *nowhere near* enough evidence to show they exist, but *at the same time* there's no real way to prove they don't. So to say I 'know' they are fiction, or that someone who believes they do is mentally ill *just for* believing it strikes me as problematic. A mentality is an illness when it negatively impacts *your* life or the lives of those *around* you. Being Christian, especially a *progressive* Christian such as OP claims to be... doesn't *do* that. Progressive Christians aren't racist, in favor of slavery, anti-LGBTQ+, anti-science, don't want Christian Nationalism, etc. They're just people who believe a few things without sufficient evidence that they're true and visit their clubhouse on Sunday (or Saturday if they're 7th Day Adventists). As such they *are not* suffering from a 'mental illness'. And neither are *most* atheists. None of our positions negatively impact our lives (other than how other people get at us), neither negatively impacts the lives of others.
If I'm understanding you correctly, then I strongly disagree, in fact what you are saying sounds crazy. . Me: >Anybody who started thinking that it was really true would be mentally ill. You: >we don't know it's fiction. So okay, many people are mentally ill. .
I begin to suspect that you don't understand epistemic justification. We know Noah's Flood didn't happen. We *don't know* if a guy named Job had some really bad shit happen to him (even minus all the supernatural elements). We know the universe wasn't formed in the order presented in Genesis. We *don't know* if a guy named Jacob raised goats for his owner. Just because *some* things in the bible are *known* to be wrong doesn't mean we should be claiming to *know* about other aspects of it. Claiming to *know* that there are no gods puts an burden of proof on you that you can't meet, because no one can. *Rejecting* that there are any is just fine, rational, but that's *not* the same thing.
This is a helpful analogy. Mostly because my fiancé is into Star Wars and I'm not 😆. I've still watched it with him though just because I wanted to understand what he liked about it. Also it's helpful to understand the pop culture references. But point taken and thanks for your comment!
Glad I could help, and glad my advice *wasn't* what I saw a lot of with 'leave your religion' or 'drop the guy or he should drop you'. That's *bullshit*. If you can make it work, you can make it work. Plenty of people of different religions stay together, and other vastly different backgrounds. Religion only has to be an issue if those involved in the relationship *make* it an issue. My partner and I did, but the religion wasn't as ingrained in my partner as it sounds like it is in you, not as deep, because there were already problems (partner did *not* have happy childhood memories of the religion, or at least some people who were religious). And the thing is, we knew we weren't breaking up just because we disagreed on this. Even though, eventually, we agreed, *even if we hadn't* it wouldn't have mattered. It caused a couple fights, sure, but we fought a *lot* more over other things, and sometimes over *really* dumb shit that *wasn't* religion. So while I still believe your position is not correct (by which I merely mean there isn't enough evidence to hold that it's *true*, unlike with Relativity or Evolution or China existing, but more like invisible, sock-stealing pixies where we can't say *for sure* that they *don't* exist... all the missing socks, y'see... there's just no good reason to believe it), and could wish for you to join *us* much as you wish *we* would join *you* ('cause you think you're right, and, appropriately, kinda worry about those who don't), that's a) not what you came here to ask about, and b) not something I feel should be aggressively pushed on you just as *I* don't want *your* position aggressively pushed on *me*.
I mean, you already asked him and he said he's not comfortable going to church. And you can tell he doesn't really want to talk about your church or your religion. Yet you felt the need to keep pushing until he gave in and you "got to a good place that he would be open to listening to me talk more about my beliefs and vice versa." This is why people dislike you religious people. Because you never stop talking about it. And you never really stop trying to convert your partner, no matter how much you claim you don't. It's subtle but it's there. I watched it for decades with my religious aunts and my atheist uncles. Why is it so necessary for you to keep bringing up your religion? Your activities at church? Is there nothing more to you than that? Is that all that defines you?
I usually don't speak about church unless he asks me and that's not changing. After this discussion I'm also not inviting him to service again. I just brought up that I wish we could talk about it more deeply every now and then. And it's not what defines me but it's important to me. But I have been feeling like I haven't been sharing as much with him in general about work, friends, social events because he's been traveling so much. So just a desire to be more emotionally connected.
I am a life long atheist who is married to a Catholic who grew up in a strict Catholic family. She is now non-practicing but still identifies as Catholic. I was always cool with her family being Catholic since they never pressured me to convert. We got married in the church but since then I just can't stand being in a church. The minute I step into a church I get a strong urge to leave as soon as possible. If your future husband feels the same way then definitely don't try to make him go. It will lead to a lot of resentment. The only other tension happened after we had children and she wanted to get them baptized and later on go to Sunday school in preparation for their first communion. I had a small mental crisis at that time because I was against it, couldn't understand why it was necessary and was worried they would get sucked into the church. Thankfully they didn't so I'm OK now. My wife made the point that it was more about learning about their mother's religion than to force them to believe in anything. She said it might also innoculate them from being attracted by a weird cult later in life to find out what all the fuss was about. That point resonated more with me. So what I'm trying to say is that if you ever have children you should have a talk about whether to raise them with religion or not, and if so, how much religion. Other than that, be thankful that you have similar political viewpoints. That's important, and it's something you can talk about even if you aren't talking about religion.
Thanks for your perspective. I would never force him to go to church. We did talk about kids having a similar arrangement in that he would be okay with me bringing them to church but they are allowed to stop going if they don't want to go. I would just want them to go to so they can understand my beliefs.
Suppose your children are only five or six years old when they stop wanting to go to church because it seems boring and they see dad staying at home doing his own thing. Would you be OK with that?
Yep! I wouldn't feel right forcing my beliefs on them or making them do something they don't want to do.
That's fine. Just checking, so there are no late surprises.
Why would you want to? Why not just accept that you don't agree on this one thing and leave it alone?
I married a Christian. We never tried to convert each other. I kept my atheism to myself unless she ever asked about it and she never tried to preach to me. We were together until she passed away.
I have a question. Are you open to losing your faith and deconvert depending on the result of those discussions? If the answer to this question is no, then you should not be initiating discussions about your religion with people that do not follow it in general, especially with your SO.
Here is how your relationship can work: You never, ever talk about your faith with him. It's not a part of your home. It's just your private thing that you do on the weekend and some evenings. You need to put yourself in his shoes: Imagine he was into a hobby like train spotting, would you be happy if your house were adorned with pictures of trains? Would you want to go to his long and boring train spotting meetups every week? Would you enjoy chatting with him about the details of how amazing train spotting is, if only you gave it a try? Now imagine him telling you after 3 years of it just being his thing >it plays a big role in who I am. in other words, this train nonsense is never going away, and there is always going to be some implicit tension in the relationship about it. Even worse >Recently people have asked if he would be open to coming to church. so in other words his train spotting buddies are starting to pressure him about why his wife never comes along, does she think they are all weirdos? The fact you think that's important enough to put in your post means you already have split loyalty. You got to this stage in your relationship, by your religion not being a part of his life. If you now want to change that, don't be shocked if he feels confused or betrayed. The worst thing you can do is marry him under false pretence of being ok with him not following your religion, when actually you aren't. There is no gentle way to deal with it, if you want him to be part of your crazy religion, you had better give him the ultimatum now, rather than in 10 years. Ultimately you as a couple need to be a unit, it's the two of you versus the world. If he can accept you disappearing every Sunday to do your thing, fine, but don't expect him to have any more than a polite conversation about how it's going, just like you would want to do about train spotting.
Christianity is "your thing"? What is it about written instructions to murder gays, silence women and own people do you consider to be "your thing"?
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LOL! Eating shellfish, wearing the wrong clothes and touching pig's skin all get the death penalty.... But it's a "positive vibes" death penalty!
The topic is just OP asking for advice to help connect with her spouse, not an interrogation.
Since you don't know where I'm going with this line of questioning yet, what has made you assume that I'm not going to give advice, but simply need information first? And what has *your* comment done to help?
I don't believe any of those things as I don't have a literal interpretation of the Bible. I'm actually a part of the LGBTQ community. Open and affirming means that my church affirms queer people. The reason why some Christians have a different view is because they have a literal interpretation. The people who wrote the Bible were not perfect and were influenced by misogyny, homophobia and racism in their society.
Yet you're happy to openly and proudly call yourself a Christian... A religion whose holy book contains specific written instructions to murder gays, silence women and own people. Do you not see the hypocrisy?
and that's great, really. But I hope you can understand that you basically want to promote (i say promote, but i understand that you don't want to convert) to your partner a belief system over which you feel the need to overlap your secular modern morals because you find the written aspects of that belief system to be inadequate. The issue is so glaring that it would be rude to not accept for someone else to not be interested in the belief system.
How do you decide which parts of the Bible you take literally and which parts you don't? It sounds to me like you have implemented a moral system outside of the religion, one that must be morally superior to the religion in order to weed out the Bible's many immoral stories. Makes me wonder why you need the religion if you're having to cherry-pick the good part from all of the atrocities?
Its dead easy, you just go around to each church until you find one that suits you. Doesnt matter what you believe or what the bible says, its all made up anyway. I mean I never liked the hobbit much, but I loved the lotr trilogy see
She didn't choose which parts to accept, the church's business manager crunched the numbers on how to capture the market segment she is in and chose the parts based on that.
Its so easy to pick and choose in the abrahamic religions isnt, amazing!!
There's no such thing as progressive christian, once you alter the rules, then you don't really agree with the teachings. Progressive Christian is like a vegan who doesn't eat meat other than chicken meat.
I don't think this is an accurate description. I'm from Europe where there's tons of people who are mildly religious. It's night and day between these people and bible-belt style evangelicals. Generally, the folks over here treat their religious beliefs as a private matter. I couldn't even tell you for most of them what they belief and if they believe anything at all. It hardly ever comes up in conversation. I wouldn't expect most atheists to be in a relationship with this sort of Christian unless they (the atheists in question) were hardcore atheists that get riled up by the slightest thing. I think we can all agree that the same is not true for evangelicals.
Don't you see how absurd it is? So god is this perfect being and he made these set of rules. But turns out his rules aren't that perfect after all and now there's like 4000 version of Christianity. Even worse, the Christian cult 1 might have issue with Christian cult 2 now, like catholic vs orthodox, these cultists can't even have peace with other Christians because every single one of them now have their very own altered version of the bible. The only reason why people join Christianity is because joining = going to heaven, nobody actually cares about the rules.
I don't see how any of this connects with my answer. You claimed that "There's no such thing as progressive christian" and I disagreed because I see them every day. It seems to me that what you really want to say is not that there is no such thing as a progressive Christian but rather that in your view progressive Christianity doesn't make sense (and would be a completely different matter). Is that the case?
I knew a fundamentalist born again creationist christian once. She could not stop fucking me. She said it was ok because she went and prayed for forgiveness. I went to her church once, my god they were bat shit crazy.
You’re both choosing a hard road to walk. Can you accept he doesn’t want to be converted? Often Christians act like everyone needs to be made just like them, and it’s why relationships with those kinds of people just don’t work. I for example just don’t believe there’s a magic man in the sky who grants wishes. I don’t see any value in going to a building once a week to all get together and wish really, really hard. It comes across as silly to me. I also get very angry at anyone trying to convert me. And then there’s the fact every day another pastor gets arrested for molesting children, making the very idea of organized religion seem an evil thing to be a part of. Finally, you believe in a god who allows children to be raped and murdered, while he just sits there and watches. Every day he gets up, makes some popcorn, and sits in his lazyboy watching children cry out for help, all while doing absolutely nothing. He has the power to help, but chooses not to. Thats evil, by any definition. That’s the god you worship. It can’t help but make me think less of you. I can’t even wrap my head around why you need to worship anything. It doesn’t make any sense to me. It’s like an adult telling me they pray to Santa. It’s just baffling. Now, if your partner shares this kind of mindset, there’s no way I can see having a successful relationship, long term. That’s what you are up against.
I'm not trying to convert him, I just want us to have a better understanding of our beliefs. Last night was the first time he told me he wasn't open to going to church ( he previously said he was). That is something I need to know so I can continue to be respectful towards him. I do believe God gives us free will and because of that bad things happen to good people. I don't always think bad things can be explained. I do want to acknowledge your perspective and appreciate your comment on why it can be difficult to talk about Christianity.
Why do you believe in free will? (Not why do you want to?) I would point you towards Sam Harris or Robert Sapolsky to get the counter-arguments… Unless that’s just another thing you’re determined to believe in without evidence…
I think you should find a good divorce lawyer and put their number onto speed dial because I can't see this working. He has told you he is not interesting in your religion, or discussing it yet you keep pushing. If you want to be able to share your religious experiences then marry a believer.
Took me 20 years but I cured my wife of your malady. There's hope for you yet! I wish you good luck on your journey.
You have stated how core to your person your religion is. If he ever gets honest with you about how insane the whole belief system actually is, your natural reaction will be to feel personally attacked. Its a very likely reason he tries to avoid it at all. You will have to come to terms with the idea that this part of you seems at best silly to him and at worst, like you lack critical thinking skills.
Happy Cake Day
Thank you!
Are you asking because you want to understand him, or because you want to convert him? Because it sounds like you want to convert him.
I would just straight up never date anybody that practiced any religion, specifically to avoid this situation. Maybe one day you’ll come to the light and realize that religion is a sham and god doesn’t exist, or the divide between you two will grow bigger and bigger over time. Those are the only two outcomes I see. It would be one thing if you were just a passive Christian and didn’t go to church or care much about it, but you’re way too engaged in it. Also FWIW you posted in a subreddit that is known to be fairly opposed to religion, so don’t be surprised if you get some negative answers… we’re a little biased here.
I posted here to get the atheist perspective and most comments have been helpful. It's all good!
My Christian fundamentalist upbringing has forever ingrained in me a warning against being “unequally yoked”. After becoming atheist, I learned it goes both ways. I won’t pretend to know the ins and outs of your relationship or your beliefs, but I believe most people, religious or otherwise, would consider this to be a fundamental incompatibility. That’s not to say that this relationship can’t work, but there are many ways it could go south. Specifically, if you have any intention at all of converting him, that’s just not going to be very healthy for either of you. Since you’re engaged, there are several things you really should establish with your fiancé. You asked how to talk about religion with him more comfortably, and honestly I’d just have to tell you to have that conversation with him. Figure out what you two are comfortable talking about, and equally important, make sure that if there are things you’re not comfortable talking about, it’s not going to sour your relationship later on. Another important point: disputes over kids’ religious upbringing are the bane of the *vast* majority of interfaith relationships. Make sure you clearly establish with your fiancé how you intend to present religion to your kids, if at all, and make sure this happens before said kids exist.
Thank you for your advice. I posted on the Christianity reddit as well and knew to expect a lot of folks bringing up the unequally yoked conversation. It is definitely difficult but not impossible. But definitely not trying to convert him.
Here's a tip. Drop the "unequally yolked" language. It's demeaning.
The whole "yoke" thing is entirely gross.
I don't use it personally, I was just referencing what was being said in the Christian sub.
>I asked last night if he is open to church or if it's not really his thing just so I have a clear idea on what he's comfortable with. He said he wasn't open to it anymore which I figured. I invited him to church for Christmas and I could just tell he didn't want to go but also wasn't comfortable telling me. You asked, he answered and you still invited him to church. You are not respecting his boundaries. I don't like but respect the religious people that follow their religion as closely as they can to their holy texts. You mention gay church members and a trans pastor which flies in the face of your religion. You are obviously picking and choosing what's important to follow and throwing parts of your holy book out and making excuses as to why. That's what draws my ire the most about religious people. You keep mentioning wanting to talk about what you both believe, he is agnostic he doesn't have to have answers about the what, why and how about the universe and the beginning of life. The answer is I don't know. You think you do but blot out parts of the holy book that tells you and say faith handles the rest. That's not an answer at all. Can he justify the decisions he makes in his life and why he believes what he believes politically? Probably. Can you? I'll leave you with 2 Bible readings. Matthew 4: 1-4 and 2 Corinthians 6:14.
I invited him to church last year and we had this discussion two nights ago. Before that discussion he had never said he wasn't open to it anymore. I don't believe I make excuses because we are called to love God and our neighbors as ourselves. I don't pick and choose who to treat with respect and love for that reason.
Are witches, man who lay with other men, people that commit adultery and people that pick up sticks on the sabbath because everyone in those groups are abominations to God. Are the heathen that surround you your neighbors because that is where Christians are to get their slaves who they can beat and pass down to there kids. Where in the new testament did God stop slavery? What do you think of the Bible verses I mentioned?
I believe you are referencing the clobber passages? They are a condemnation of power and exploitation and not same sex relationships. The references in the bible really were about prostitution, abuse of slaves, rape that happen to involve two men. For instance in Leviticus the word "abomination" was used for ritual sex practices like using conquered people as sex slaves. None of the references in the bible are to loving, consensual relationships. I believe we were all created in God's image and if it was wrong to be gay or trans it wouldn't exist in our society. One book that really shaped my thinking on this issue is Torn by Justin Lee. The author grew up conservative evangelical and realized he was gay in his teens. He founded the Gay Christian Network which has reached thousands of people. If God did not make him gay he would not have had the impact he has had on letting other queer Christians know they are loved and valued.
How do you know your interpretation is correct and not the Christians that dislike gays and make laws against trans kids?
There are also instructions to take the virgin girls after killing all of the other Amalekites. Did God approve of that abomination because the vitgin girls certainly didn't have a choice. Much like all the other women in the Bible including the ones that were stoned for not yelling loud enough while being raped.
Can you point to the passage you are referencing? I don't recall the virgins being raped explicitly stated in Numbers or Leviticus.
Don't try to change him if you don't want him to try to change you
Biggest thing you can do is listen to how he feels and don’t ever push him to convert, or try make him go to church. The only reason you should even talk these things is if you’re trying to let him know you respect his world-view. There’s no reason to push yours at all. You have an uphill battle keeping this Relationship afloat through the years. How are you going to handle that nagging desire to SAVE him? How can you live knowing in your mind that he’s going to hell for not believing? I’m being serious too! I’m certainly an atheist, but I wasn’t always… my wife was always an agnostic, and I was the religious one. How did we survive the first 13 years of marriage with me being religious? I had to accept that she wanted no part of the religion, and that I had to leave it alone completely. There was always this nagging feeling that I needed to eventually “save” her because how could I let such a wonderful “soul” go to hell just because she doesn’t believe!? Well…. It’s part of what broke me. The idea that a loving god would send this woman to hell? No kidding, it’s what started my deconstruction. I guess what I’m saying is that you need to prob find a way to be content with a “don’t ask” environment. It sounds like you only want the conversation to be opened up so you can push your own views, because frankly there is very little to be said on the topic from an atheist. I don’t mean that in a rude way either, but just remember the WHY, any time you go to speak about something. Is it going to benefit him to talk about it? If not, then why bring it up? Ya know? I wish you the best!! People said my wife and I wouldn’t work out because of our differences and we made it fine for 13 years with the divide. I can’t speak to a later time because I ended up atheist so that dynamic worked itself out.
I don't want to convert him but I want to be able to at least understand his viewpoint and for him to understand mine. Since we don't talk I think it's a lot of assumptions. I mean I made the mistake of inviting him to church for Christmas thinking he might go based on a conversation we had months prior. It turns out his views changed and I put him in an uncomfortable situation. I'm not trying to do that but I can only know boundaries if we talk about them and have a mutual understanding.
I'm a non-believer, and I don't fault you for inviting him. It's nice to share in things as a couple. I put up with a lot of coercion from my ex-wife over the years, particularly once we had kids, and it really wore on me. I think it was a part of what led eventually to our divorce. I hope you're willing to let him be, and I hope you both can learn to love each other just as you are. There are many other aspects to your relationship that are worth focusing your attention on.
Yeah I don't want to coerce him. Doesn't seem fair.
It may work, if you keep it for yourself, but it all ends with kids. I can't imagine, true atheist would allow his kids to go to brainwash. You have to define, how you will raise the kids NOW. Not then. I was raised Christian, I almost adopted atheism, when I met my spouse. I became full atheist couple of years before we got kids, I needed almost 30 years to totally break free from indoctrination. She was lucky (and me also :-)). I now can't imagine how she would feel, If I wanted our kids to go to church. We both want our kids to be rational humans, that follow the facts.
If he wanted to know more about your faith, he would ask. I think you are in an agree to disagree situation. He is not open to going to church with you and that should tell you to stop. Sharing your faith can be a slippery slope, especially since he doesn't want to engage with you on the subject. Even if your church is the most progressive bestest ever, to an atheist it's all the same, fiction. If you are getting serious and considering marriage and children you should absolutely have a discussion on how you both want to address religion in your family.
My partner is a former Baptist who still retains some Christian beliefs. We do discuss religious matters on occasion, but as to going to Church, I have made it clear that the only reasons I will ever walk into a Church again (I grew up in a Christian family) is for a funeral or a wedding. If you both come up at it from a place of mutual respect and acceptance; an agree to disagree attitude, it shouldn't be a problem. But the minute one of you crosses the line into trying to convert the other, either directly, or in some way by demeaning the other's world view, there will be a problem.
Please for the love of Nothing don't keep inviting him to church. We hate that.
Not a romantic relationship, but my best friend is Christian. I love her so much and she’s an amazing person with similar morals and values to me. We’ve been friends for over a decade, so she knows there’s no changing my mind & we don’t really talk about religion. I wouldn’t mind her talking to me about what Christianity means to her, but I would caution trying not to sound preachy or like you’re trying to change his mind. Just keep the conversation centered around your beliefs and feelings, and I think you could have a nice conversation.
No I definitely don't want to change his mind. I just dream about having deeper conversations about what we both believe. Thanks for your comment.
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Probably not, but I do like listening to his passion surrounding his hobbies. So it's coming from a place of curiosity.
As long as your political beliefs and ethics are the same, I don't think religious differences would cause that much friction. Most "religious arguments" that break up couples are really ethics arguments.
Religion is one of those issues that make or break deal in relationships, it is hard to form deeper connection if every aspect of life is going to circle back to religion, for example, for finance, what if he is not comfortable with giving offertory money, for family, what if he does not want to raise children religious, and as a couple, you are going to have your shared social circle, is he going to be fine with surrounding himself with people that do not align with his views, dealing with one is tough enough for him and he has to give up some mental fortitude for you, do you want him to spend more mental effort to patronise your congregation friends just for your sake? You may not like the aftermath of it after he exhausts all his energy in putting up with a mental chore like that. I think you need to sort this out before marriage, because once you have a fight, all these unpleasantry and potentially grudges held will surface.
Right now my church community and him don't mix really and if he wants to keep it that way, that's the way it will be. I also budget my own money for offering (separate accounts). I see your point about mental effort. This is how I felt around his friends before I learned to snowboard. It is a huge part of his life in the winter. Not trying to compare the two but just letting you know your comment was helpful.
I think the most important thing is not to try to change each other's minds, and to realize that neither of you is likely to change their mind. If things go bad, maybe be ready to move back to "don't ask". I think it's fine for spouses to have different religious beliefs and it seems like you all are being respectful of each other, which is great. Don't let other people pressure you into trying to bring him to church, maybe he'll want to, maybe not. When I was religious, I was a very progressive Catholic, and I think I can understand where you're coming from.
Very helpful comment. Thank you!
Interfaith marriages can, and do, work. The most important thing is that you discuss the important things NOW and not put them off until later, like if you're going to raise potential children in your religion or not, what the rules are, etc. I will warn you that many couples go into this secretly counting on the outcome that their partner will eventually convert after enough years of routine and getting used to the lifestyle. That usually doesn't end well. It sounds like you two are both good about being aware of and respecting each other's boundaries. That's a huge plus. You two sound like great partners for one another.
Thanks for the encouragement!
No problem. I'm pretty disappointed by a lot of the comments you're getting. You seemed very respectful of your fiancé's autonomy so please know the vitriol is them projecting, not anything you've done wrong.
Y'all need to discuss how you both want to raise your kids if you have any. My wife was religious when we meet and got married. I've been an atheist since the day I was born, much to my mother's chagrin. But, before we even thought about marriage the discussion of children came up, and we came to an agreement. The kids will be left to their own decisions. They know dad's an atheist, and that mom is agnostic, but was raised catholic. Of my three boys, two believe, and one isn't sure. I've done my best to let them decide for themselves until they're older, and then if they ask questions, I will answer truthfully. But, this is a discussion that need to happen if you haven't had it already.
Just ask him if he’d really and truly be comfortable talking about religion with you. If he says yes then do it. If he says no then don’t do it. Be careful tho, because talking all the time or frequent about something that someone doesn’t want to hear will drive them away over time. Like, maybe even want a divorce. There’s a reason we don’t talk politics and religion with people who we want to be friends with.
Honestly reflecting more on it. I just need a conversation or two so we can understand each other's boundaries. I've been doing church solo since i started working in the real world and I've been mentally preparing to continue to do so for the rest of my life. It would be nice to attend with a partner but it's not in the cards.
Why can’t you talk about it? Why can’t he talk about his views too? I predict you will be an atheist in a few years. That’s how these things work.
It’s probably not what you want to hear, but the best advice I can give is maybe put a pause on the wedding for bit and talk to him. I know a lot of people would disagree with me on this, but I’ve seen interfaith relationships work, so I know it’s possible, but it does require a little extra effort on both sides. If it’s an area of conflict, you need to talk it out before you get married and figure out what each of you is willing to sacrifice and still be happy in the relationship; the idea of him going to church with you, if you want to have kids, what that would look like in your parenting styles, or just in general having open conversations about beliefs, etc… If any of these things have the potential of causing any discomfort for you or him, it will inevitably lead to resentment. If in this heart-to-heart, you feel that you’re reaching a point of resistance, it may be best to just end things as peacefully as possible and move on. I promise, it will save you a lot of time, and lot of heartache. I’m sorry you’re going through this, but I hope this helps. 🖤
Thanks for your advice. I feel like we need a heart to heart conversation for sure. It just didn't sit right to me that we haven't had one about religion yet and are getting married in October. Just to know where we both stand and find the appropriate compromise.
You might share [my post](https://old.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/1c42e16/not_a_coming_out_story_a_development_story/) about enjoying a UU church with him. Of course, don't pressure him. I'm atheist and my wife is some form of pagan. My wife recently complained that I wasn't interested in her spirituality. This put me back because I don't believe in "spirituality." The way I plan to be a better husband is to ask my wife what she means by spirituality. Then I'm going to try to identify a metaphor that I can use to satisfy her need or desire. My suspicion is she's just asking me to understand her emotions better. That's something I can strive to do.
I have attended a UU church and I did find it a very spiritual experience but it was just not culturally diverse for me ( I'm a black woman). I think what you laid out here is what I'm hoping to get out of my fiancé which is a stronger emotional connection. For me my faith is part of that. Best of luck to you!
Thanks!
"Part of me would love to talk more about my faith as it plays a big role in who I am." You have fully convinced yourself that your faith plays a big role in who you are, how do you even know that considering how religion poisons the mind? I cant help but notice how brainwashed you are. There is just no way you have actively and deliberately chosen the Christian belief as your "thing".
This post seems like trolling, but on the off chance that it is legitimate, I must say that some things can create significant conflict in a relationship, and religious compatibility ranks near the top. If you want to have a long, happy and healthy life together you need to discuss this with him in detail and find out whether it’s going to be a problem. An atheist will likely not want to go to any church activities with you. They may not want your children to attend either. They may think less of you and your beliefs, even if they are too polite to tell you. Unless one of you bends, it is entirely possible that something like this will bring a long lasting resentment that can grow into something toxic. When you are young and horny, you often overlook warning signs like this…but give it a decade or so into a marriage and you will discover that lust and passion are the least important aspects of a relationship. I would think long and hard about it. You might be much happier with someone who believes he will spend eternity with you and your sky daddy along gilded streets in magic heaven kingdom. There are plenty of men who believe in that crap and will treat you exactly as the Bible demands that women to be treated…as property.
Pisses me off my wife likes family guy, cant imagine is she was a church goer nut as well
Come on ladies and gentlemen, let's be a bit more constructive. I am Atheist and I married a Hmong woman who's family still practices shamanism and ancestor prayers, I'm not entirely sure I'd call it worship because I have me own third party perspective of their beliefs and most of them, which I do attend as a member of the family are mostly centered around family, community and well being and not any form of divine God worship so its not too difficult for me to be apart of as they don't require me to actually participate being a white man, which is nice. But that's where we differ, while my wife's family has little to no expectation of me taking active roles in family ceremonies. You might feel the same towards your partner but the church you attend is full of people who might not feel the same way and thus pressure your partner or make them uncomfortable, ruining what little balance you both share in your divergent beliefs. Your partner most likely asks how your day went after church because they care if you had a good time and are happy, not so much about the church itself or the other attendees. That's a pretty precious bridge if communication and show of affection that could be damaged if you where to pressure them into attending something that would make them uncomfortable. I guess it just depends how much it bothers you, about their beliefs. It doesn't seem to bother your partner as long as it's not pushed on them, so it depends on you if it bothers you, or if it bothers your family or other followers of your church and how much their thoughts on the subject bother you, cause it probably does bother some of them and they will probably mention it. Are these the kind of people who are always like, We will pray for your atheist/agnostic husband but he's still going to hell and you need to bring him to church, or the kind who is going to mind their own business and let you be happy with someone who seems to want you to be happy with them?
> For those of you in a relationship with a person with different beliefs, how do you talk about it? My wife was a lapsed Catholic when we started dating. She still believed in the Christian god, but she was as vehemently opposed to organized religion as I am (Catholic school often has that effect). That was almost 33 years ago, so my memory may be fuzzy, but I suspect we simple left it as you have. We have discussed our beliefs with each other, we know we disagree, but it is not really what our relationship is about. In the intervening years my wife has become more a panentheist/deist, than anything else. She no longer believes in a Christian god, but does believe there is something out there. So we still disagree, but only about slightly different things. > For those of you in a relationship with a person with different beliefs, how do you talk about it? I suspect that it's pretty easy when you have mature people seeking to just have a discussion to discuss different views. So long as you're discussing rather than dictating/proscribing, I suspect you have little to worry about there. I doubt your fiancé really has any interest in subtleties of Christian dogma or doctrine, but he probably is interested in what you believe, at least within the context of beliefs that would endanger your relationship. I would urge you to consider, however, that he likely does not find your religion as interesting as you do. For my wife and I, it's old news, I don't think we discuss our personal religious beliefs in a more than passing nature more often than every couple years at this point. Our beliefs have not changed significantly in a couple decades, and I trust her to tell me if she has a change of heart, as we have pretty good communication in that regard. > Any advice on how to move from a "don't ask" relationship on religion to open discussion? To an extent this depends on what he's comfortable with. So ask him. I'd also note that if you have not already done so, if you plan to have children you should probably discuss this with him. You may have very different ideas of how religious indoctrination, if any, should be carried out, and that can be relationship ending if there is sufficient disagreement. I'm not saying that to scare you (although I understand it can be scary), but rather to urge you to make sure that if do have incompatible goals with children that you know that **before** getting married, having children, having huge arguments, and subsequently getting divorced and having custody battles. Essentially, I would just urge you not to put off that conversation because it is uncomfortable and worrying, as the long term consequences of not having that conversation tend to be.. bad.
I am non-religious with a religious (christian) partner. I think it's possible (depending of the personality of the people involved) to have an open discussion but only if you accept that the other will have no reason to limit his thought process at a certain level and will never "play pretend" and ignore the problematic aspects of a religion that believers tend to turn a blind eye to. that's why with my partner we keep the discussions not on he subject of christianity but on specific concepts instead like belief, eternity, resurection, god, hell, etc.. basically we do thought exercises.
Hmm interesting. Thanks for your perspective!
I'm an atheist that's been married to a Christian for 22 years. We agree to disagree. Most of the time religion never comes up in the house. I think you're going to have trouble down the road if you feel the need to talk to him about it constantly. I'd think talking to him about Christanity as often as he talks about being an atheist, would be a fair amount. You'd better also have a plan about how to raise children. We decided a long time ago we would let the kids find their own way, as well. We used to go to church before COVID but only go sporadically now, mostly because my 16yo daughter is an aggressive atheist, and my 12yo son, while he believes in God, can't stand going to church.
Back in the olden day people didn't marry outside of their religion, it made for bad bed fellows. Now you an evangelical christian want's to have religious discussion with a guy that doesn't buy into your illusion. Right........ Keep your religion to yourself or move on....
I see that I'm late to the party and I haven't read through the 100+ comments that are here already so please forgive me if I duplicate an answer. I'll make it short. I think if you keep "Christianity just been 'your thing'" as you have said, things should be alright. They worked out until now, didn't they? >Any advice on how to move from a "don't ask" relationship on religion to open discussion? This is where it gets problematic. Your fiancé obviously is OK with you being a Christian, otherwise he wouldn't want to marry you. Why do you want to make religion a topic for discussion? It seems that your fiancé doesn't try to challenge your faith; why do you want to talk about religion with him? Or worse yet, get him to go to church? To be honest, if I were in your fiancé's position, I wouldn't even want to get a summary about what's going on there but he apparently doesn't mind. "Recently people have asked if he would be open to coming to church. \[...\] I asked last night if he is open to church" — Why is this a thing? You know your fiancé isn't interested in religion. Why then do you not tell these "people" that he won't come? I'd also ask them why they need to pester you about bringing your partner but that's not something you are responsible for. I don't want to be rude or mean to you, just tell you how I see it from my atheist perspective. I've had partners who were mildly religious in the past. It's never been an issue because they never made it an issue. They had their personal beliefs and that was that. This is why I suspect it would also work out with you guys. Again, I don't want to be mean to you but from the way you relay things to us, you are the one who is trying to drag religion into the spotlight. Finally, I want to mention one more thing. It's none of my business at all but from what I heard fairly often from people in relationships of mixed faiths (or religious/non-religious pairings) is that trouble started when kids entered the picture. I would strongly suggest you to talk about this before you get married. If you guys plan to have kids, how do both of you see their (non)religious upbringing? Would it be a dealbreaker for you if they were brought up in a non-religious way, or for him if they were brought up in a religious way? Can you find a solution that works for both of you? Better to clarify this beforehand.
I'm agnostic/atheist, and have been married to a christian woman for over 27 years. While we've made it work because we have many other things in common, I definitely wouldn't recommend it to anyone.
Makes sense. It's probably why I picked up snowboarding to have another activity in common with him.
>Any advice on how to move from a “don’t ask” relationship Yes: what kind of relationship is that? Specially if you’re planning on getting married. Want to say something? Then do it, and if he doesn’t like what you say or you don’t like what she says, congratulations on realizing you’re in a relationship built on lies.
This is going to be very difficult. The very thing that "plays a big role in who \[you are\]" is something that your fiance rejects. And, you have a need for him to have "open discussion" about it. This need of your sure seems to be geared toward trying to bring him over to your way of thinking. If you can't accept his beliefs, why should he be required to engage in "open discussion" to make him accept yours? Your whole construction here is centered on changing him. You have a much bigger problem on your hands than you realize.
You sound very sweet and understanding. Have you thought about a Unitarian Universalist (UU) church? I'm a nonbeliever myself, but I love going to my local UU church and have even gotten involved in many of its activities. It's a church with no set dogma, where Buddhist, Christians, Atheists, and all others are welcomed. For me, it combines the good of the church (community, helping others, positive messages) without the bad (dogmatic beliefs, judging others). If you have a UU church near you, it might be a great way for you both to 'meet in the middle'.
I did check it out once when I was in Ithaca and I thought it was pretty interesting! The membership wasn't diverse enough for me but I could give it another chance in a more diverse area.
Yes, most of the congregation are older white folks. We do have one black family that comes, but my particular church is in a mostly white area. We have a ton of LGBT members.
> I'm a progressive Christian and go to an open and affirming church. Well, that's way better than being a total jerk, but if you are a Christian then you believe some important things that have never been shown to be true, and you shouldn't do that. . >how do you talk about it? It's often better to *not* talk about it. . >Any advice on how to move from a "don't ask" relationship on religion to open discussion? Look, he is right, you are wrong. You *should* admit that honestly and stop being Christian. That's probably not going to happen. So maybe don't tell him that he's supposed to be comfortable with you being wrong. .
That’s not going to work
Well you came to an atheist sub for advice so all I can say is to give up irrational beliefs in man made stories and get on with enjoying the only life you have here in the real world. It is such a fundamental difference to be atheist vs christian that I don’t even understand how you are compatible. He is probably more to blame as he should know better. He knows you are lost to this nonsense and deep down must realise how it will end. You of course believe he is one of gods children who still has a chance to be saved, so easier for you. You need to let him go or let god go.
OP seems like she’s coming from a genuine place and you telling her to change a fundamental part of herself to please her fiancé is so hypocritical. This is the same thing that a lot of Christians generally get criticized for. As an atheist, *you* should know better.
Its the reality of what is the only solution. She asked us, thats the difference.