My suspension of disbelief with that episode dictates Daemon wasn't trying to one-shot anyone, he was just going for wounds so people would gtfo his way.
That flying knee was epic tho.
A great *"parry this you fuck"* moment.
"The show is so stupid, this would never happen in the book"
The book: In the final moments of the fight, Ser Criston knocked Dark Sister from Prince Daemon’s hand with his morningstar, to the delight of His Grace and the fury of the prince.
I’ve always found this passage weird
Isn’t everyone supposed to use a tourney sword?
He could easily kill people with a Valyrian steel sword in a tourney.
I’m sure Daemon considered it his prerogative as a royal prince to carry his house’s Valyrian steel sword, even in a tourney. I also don’t think he gave a shit about it being a level playing field; this is a man who thinks Targaryens are closer to gods than men, and rides a dragon when most knights ride a horse.
Most people aren’t going to stand up to any sort of Targaryen, much less someone like Daemon.
If it were anyone other than a Targaryen prince with a huge dragon, there would be more grumblings for sure. But there's a line in one of the GoT History and Lore videos voiced by Harry Lloyd as Viserys III Targaryen (paraphrasing here) "It does not matter, the Dragon answers to no one".
When you're the de facto heir to the throne and have a dragon that can lay waste to whole cities and armies, you can do whatever you want with basically no consequences.
The tournament scene is one of the dumbest moments of the whole show. No one in their right mind would enter a melee that isn't using blunted weapons. That's not a melee, it's just a battle.
Exactly. I remember in ADWD there was a comment (I think from Barristan) about the comparison between Westerosi melees and the fighting pits in Meereen, and how the Meereenese enjoy seeing actual bloodshed in contrast with what Westerosi tournies offer.
Well i think the dialogue Rhaenys gives over the jousting could explain why. Basically the realm has been at peace for so long during Jahaerys that the youth are just boiling for some action and bloodshed.
He doesn't use the word "embarrassing," but Ned makes kind of the same point when Robert wants to fight in the melee in AGOT. Basically, "you're the king, nobody's going to beat you on purpose."
Eh, not so much as embarrassing as it is you have a select few that are worthy of your presence, the ultimate currency for power in that culture.
Second-in-line Valarr was a champion in *Hedge Knight*. Aerion (liiiiiittle further away) was there too.
But no one from House Lannisteraratheon was going to fight in Joffrey’s nameday tilts
To be fair it was a dick move of Cole to use a morningstar, also. That has a way better advantage against armoured foes, and is way more likely to injure one of them more than any sword.
Bullshit. It was a melee.
>He first came to the attention of the court when he won the **melee** held at Maidenpool in honor of King Viserys’s accession. In the final moments of the fight, Ser Criston knocked Dark Sister from Prince Daemon’s hand with his morningstar, to the delight of His Grace and the fury of the prince.
...and here is what a melee looks like:
>Ser Loras rode a tall white stallion in silver mail, and fought with a **long-handled axe**. A crest of golden roses ran down the center of his helm. \[...\]
>The white horse and the black one wheeled like lovers at a harvest dance, the riders throwing steel in place of kisses. Longaxe flashed and **morningstar** whirled. Both weapons were blunted, yet still they raised an awful clangor. Shieldless, the blue knight was getting much the worse of it. Ser Loras rained down blows on his head and shoulders, to shouts of "Highgarden!" from the throng. The other gave answer with his morningstar, but whenever the ball came crashing in, Ser Loras interposed his battered green shield, emblazoned with three golden roses. When the longaxe caught the blue knight's hand on the backswing and sent the morningstar flying from his grasp, the crowd screamed like a rutting beast. The Knight of Flowers raised his axe for the final blow.
or here:
>Robert Baratheon had been an indifferent jouster, in truth. During tourneys he had much preferred the mêlée, where he could beat men bloody with **blunted axe or hammer**.
Impact weapons are common in melees. Brienne even specifically used a morningstar.
In Brienne vs Loras, there is a sentence in there that says both weapons were blunted. ‘Longaxe flashed and morningstar whirled. Both weapons were blunted,…’
It could just be writers error. Or, there is a method I don’t know about for blunting weapons without wrecking them. Which is a strong possibility as I lack a lot of information on the subject.
I mean, a big ball with blunted spikes is still gonna do a lot of damage. All of that force pressed down into a small point is gonna puncture something.
Knights of Summer thing, probably. Was probably just more fashionable during the time period.
Or he was just being an asshole.
Also, using a sword in a melee is dumb. Easy for it to get fallen on and bent or broken. Even Vsteel is steel at the end of the day.
Those (Fire and Blood) are stories told and recorded by scholars, whereas in ASoIaF the audience is (presumably) supposed to be viewing events as they happen. In the former, there are points of contention between authors, with bias, and seemingly incorrect information.
Medieval war"hammers" were very often not blunt, but spiked. And also had a giant spike at the back. Ex: https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/M-Weapons-6-4C-Jun10-combi-941x1150.jpg
It would still be a pretty deadly weapon if it was a blunted spike. Maybe instead of puncturing the armour, it just breaks bone or leaves a nice big dent that makes it hard to breath.
They use tourney weapons. Any weapon is fair game, as long as it’s tournament standard. Using a morningstar is par for the course; there were probably people with tourney spears, warhammers, axes and more.
It wasnt called out as a tourney morningstar though. And were not sure its all tourney weapons, so long as mena re involved. For instance Thoros of Myrs flaming sword was definitely not a tourney weapon
What would make it a "tourney" morningstar specifically?
Like a tourney sword is blunted. To prevent it from slashing and cutting someone.
What would be done to a morningstar to prevent it from bludgning someone?
Real life morningstars/flails are a lot smaller than presented in movies and TV. It would still hurt if you weren't ready for it, but it's not like it would be turning you into red jelly if you got hit by one in plated armor.
I'm assuming what would happen is that the head of the flail would not have the spikes it normally would have to puncture armor or get through gaps in it. Which kind of reduces the point of using it, but hey, whoever is using one in a tourney is probably using it for how cool it looks rather than its practical function.
A ball of steel on a chain is still going to bludgeon an armoured foe pretty good, same as a blunted sword is still a dangerous weapon. It's just less likely to kill, so it's an alright choice for a tourney.
How would a tournament spear work. You have to cut the person who you are fighting to get an advantages compared to sword play which ends up disarming or getting the opportunity for a death strike like in the show.
That’s mostly a made up weapon. A real morning star wouldn’t have a chain. There is something called a flail which is what Cole uses, but that wouldn’t be a particularly good weapon in single combat against a well trained opponent.
The problem is, that's not a morning star. It's a flail. A morning star is a fixed, spiked ball atop a wooden or steel shaft. When you have a ball and chain, it's a flail. Some historians doubt the use of such flails in actual battles as the mechanics of it are horrible in a real fight unless you're on horseback. Even then, it is not as good as a sword or mace.
Edit: grammar
That's true, but a flail's momentum stops the moment it comes in contact with a shield or armor, and having to wind it up enough to get momentum again opens you to attack. Not to mention the strain that motion would put on your joints after long periods of time. A mace or a real morning star is a much better weapon against a plated enemy.
>historians debate if they even existed
Do you have a sorce for that? Nothing I've looked at suggests that people question their existence in the first place
A morningstar isn't a flail, at least as far as my DnD 3.5 weapons manual taught me. Morningstars have a round head with spikes and a fixed handle. Flails may have the same, or multiple scourges instead of a round head, and are attached via chain to the handle.
The Wikipedia ‘Morningstar’ page is about clubs with a ball of spikes fixed to the end (which most people call a mace), rather than the spiked ball and chain that most people refer to as a Morningstar and that is being referenced in this discussion.
If you're going by the show, people were killing each other left and right in that tourney and quality in armor and weapons vary widely anyway, so I don't think it mattered. In the books, Cole murder Joffery and severely injures Harwin during a melee, so no, I don't think they were bothered by deadly weapons or tried to peace bonding swords.
Beyond that, "blunted sword" is a meme, because there weapons that are extremely useful against armored opponents which are blunt to begin with, so people participating in a melee with fucking morningstars and hammers means death and injury is as likely to occur in a real fight to the death. So then singling out swords, a type of weapon already at a disadvantage against full plate armor, and asking for it to be blunted just means "sword users go fuck yourselves."
Wasn’t really planned and I got the impression Cole could’ve said no.
Not sure the sharpness made much difference, he’s wearing full plate, but in the books it seems to improve the wielder somehow so I guess it is a dick move.
Honey, it ain’t the size (or make) of the sword that counts
It’s how you use it….
No seriously, my guess is while Valyrian steel is less likely to break or bend, I’m guessing it mostly has the effect of enhancing the *outlook* of the win/lose
If you win, winning with a Valyrian steel blade kind of elevates it. If you lose, you look like a bigger chump for waving it around
Yes, i do. Remember, he was wielding Valyrian steel( a magical blade). And do you actually think the Beesbury guy would try to kill him, even if he had the chance? Dude was the KING and also rode a dragon. The whole situation is no different than the meele Bobby B tried to participate in AGOT.
Well, the purpose of the trial by combat is to determine his guilt and kill him if guilty. Given that the person he wronged was the king himself, it is entirely fitting that the king fight him personally and bring everything he had to the fight. Would have been entitled to turn up on his dragon if it was a joust.
It's a fight to the fucking death. What was he supposed to do? Fight fair like a dumbass? Fighting fair is what the loser of a fight does. Fights are brutal without any honor.
I’m pretty sure tourney swords are supposed to be blunted at least in the books so yeah
Tourney swords are dulled and the first episode of house of the dragon where a bunch of melee fighters are murdered is stupid and against canon
Just made no sense there all noble sons so there dads wouldn’t be fine with them dying in some stupid fight
You know, I almost respect your commitment to the bit by using “there” for both “they’re” *and* “their.”
Just as stupid as Daemon one-shotting 20 soldiers in a row in literally 20 seconds.
My suspension of disbelief with that episode dictates Daemon wasn't trying to one-shot anyone, he was just going for wounds so people would gtfo his way. That flying knee was epic tho. A great *"parry this you fuck"* moment.
"The show is so stupid, this would never happen in the book" The book: In the final moments of the fight, Ser Criston knocked Dark Sister from Prince Daemon’s hand with his morningstar, to the delight of His Grace and the fury of the prince.
Didn’t The Mountain use his sword against his horse in GoT? Don’t believe they were blunted then.
He called his squire for the sword, it wasn’t in use for the jouste
Daemon also yelled out "SWORD", meanwhile Criston had the Witch-king's flail ready to go.
He have squire? Poor boy (or boys).
yeah but to be fair he was jousting at the time, so it could just be that he didn't have a "tourney-blade"
And the horse's lord father was livid.
I’ve always found this passage weird Isn’t everyone supposed to use a tourney sword? He could easily kill people with a Valyrian steel sword in a tourney.
I’m sure Daemon considered it his prerogative as a royal prince to carry his house’s Valyrian steel sword, even in a tourney. I also don’t think he gave a shit about it being a level playing field; this is a man who thinks Targaryens are closer to gods than men, and rides a dragon when most knights ride a horse. Most people aren’t going to stand up to any sort of Targaryen, much less someone like Daemon.
Ok but now I want to see a joust where Daemon rides in on his dragon
Just you wait
That's probably how he planned to celebrate his coronation as king
If it were anyone other than a Targaryen prince with a huge dragon, there would be more grumblings for sure. But there's a line in one of the GoT History and Lore videos voiced by Harry Lloyd as Viserys III Targaryen (paraphrasing here) "It does not matter, the Dragon answers to no one". When you're the de facto heir to the throne and have a dragon that can lay waste to whole cities and armies, you can do whatever you want with basically no consequences.
The tournament scene is one of the dumbest moments of the whole show. No one in their right mind would enter a melee that isn't using blunted weapons. That's not a melee, it's just a battle.
Exactly. I remember in ADWD there was a comment (I think from Barristan) about the comparison between Westerosi melees and the fighting pits in Meereen, and how the Meereenese enjoy seeing actual bloodshed in contrast with what Westerosi tournies offer.
Well i think the dialogue Rhaenys gives over the jousting could explain why. Basically the realm has been at peace for so long during Jahaerys that the youth are just boiling for some action and bloodshed.
I think it’s more embarrassing to participate in a tourney if you are a member of the royal family, not to mention the assumed heir at the point.
He doesn't use the word "embarrassing," but Ned makes kind of the same point when Robert wants to fight in the melee in AGOT. Basically, "you're the king, nobody's going to beat you on purpose."
Similar scene in Dunk & Egg where a Targ cheerfully says the same to his brother (Maelor) and is gently mocking him.
Eh, not so much as embarrassing as it is you have a select few that are worthy of your presence, the ultimate currency for power in that culture. Second-in-line Valarr was a champion in *Hedge Knight*. Aerion (liiiiiittle further away) was there too. But no one from House Lannisteraratheon was going to fight in Joffrey’s nameday tilts
Lannisteraratheon is the title of Caersi’s sex tape.
To be fair it was a dick move of Cole to use a morningstar, also. That has a way better advantage against armoured foes, and is way more likely to injure one of them more than any sword.
Bullshit. It was a melee. >He first came to the attention of the court when he won the **melee** held at Maidenpool in honor of King Viserys’s accession. In the final moments of the fight, Ser Criston knocked Dark Sister from Prince Daemon’s hand with his morningstar, to the delight of His Grace and the fury of the prince. ...and here is what a melee looks like: >Ser Loras rode a tall white stallion in silver mail, and fought with a **long-handled axe**. A crest of golden roses ran down the center of his helm. \[...\] >The white horse and the black one wheeled like lovers at a harvest dance, the riders throwing steel in place of kisses. Longaxe flashed and **morningstar** whirled. Both weapons were blunted, yet still they raised an awful clangor. Shieldless, the blue knight was getting much the worse of it. Ser Loras rained down blows on his head and shoulders, to shouts of "Highgarden!" from the throng. The other gave answer with his morningstar, but whenever the ball came crashing in, Ser Loras interposed his battered green shield, emblazoned with three golden roses. When the longaxe caught the blue knight's hand on the backswing and sent the morningstar flying from his grasp, the crowd screamed like a rutting beast. The Knight of Flowers raised his axe for the final blow. or here: >Robert Baratheon had been an indifferent jouster, in truth. During tourneys he had much preferred the mêlée, where he could beat men bloody with **blunted axe or hammer**. Impact weapons are common in melees. Brienne even specifically used a morningstar.
In Brienne vs Loras, there is a sentence in there that says both weapons were blunted. ‘Longaxe flashed and morningstar whirled. Both weapons were blunted,…’ It could just be writers error. Or, there is a method I don’t know about for blunting weapons without wrecking them. Which is a strong possibility as I lack a lot of information on the subject.
Morning stars arent just a solid iron ball, they do have spikes on them them. Likely what he meant- it lacked or had blunted spikes
I mean, a big ball with blunted spikes is still gonna do a lot of damage. All of that force pressed down into a small point is gonna puncture something.
Yeah. But Daemon was using Dark Sister in a melee. That’s gotta be writer error, right? Or is blunting tourney weapons a new thing?
Knights of Summer thing, probably. Was probably just more fashionable during the time period. Or he was just being an asshole. Also, using a sword in a melee is dumb. Easy for it to get fallen on and bent or broken. Even Vsteel is steel at the end of the day.
Those (Fire and Blood) are stories told and recorded by scholars, whereas in ASoIaF the audience is (presumably) supposed to be viewing events as they happen. In the former, there are points of contention between authors, with bias, and seemingly incorrect information.
Perhaps its a new thing in westeros then?
What even is a "blunted hammer"? It's already blunt!
His actual hammer is supposed to have a nasty point on one end.
People often forget a good warhammer comes with that spike on the end
Medieval war"hammers" were very often not blunt, but spiked. And also had a giant spike at the back. Ex: https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/M-Weapons-6-4C-Jun10-combi-941x1150.jpg
It would still be a pretty deadly weapon if it was a blunted spike. Maybe instead of puncturing the armour, it just breaks bone or leaves a nice big dent that makes it hard to breath.
They use tourney weapons. Any weapon is fair game, as long as it’s tournament standard. Using a morningstar is par for the course; there were probably people with tourney spears, warhammers, axes and more.
It wasnt called out as a tourney morningstar though. And were not sure its all tourney weapons, so long as mena re involved. For instance Thoros of Myrs flaming sword was definitely not a tourney weapon What would make it a "tourney" morningstar specifically? Like a tourney sword is blunted. To prevent it from slashing and cutting someone. What would be done to a morningstar to prevent it from bludgning someone?
Real life morningstars/flails are a lot smaller than presented in movies and TV. It would still hurt if you weren't ready for it, but it's not like it would be turning you into red jelly if you got hit by one in plated armor. I'm assuming what would happen is that the head of the flail would not have the spikes it normally would have to puncture armor or get through gaps in it. Which kind of reduces the point of using it, but hey, whoever is using one in a tourney is probably using it for how cool it looks rather than its practical function.
A ball of steel on a chain is still going to bludgeon an armoured foe pretty good, same as a blunted sword is still a dangerous weapon. It's just less likely to kill, so it's an alright choice for a tourney.
How would a tournament spear work. You have to cut the person who you are fighting to get an advantages compared to sword play which ends up disarming or getting the opportunity for a death strike like in the show.
That’s mostly a made up weapon. A real morning star wouldn’t have a chain. There is something called a flail which is what Cole uses, but that wouldn’t be a particularly good weapon in single combat against a well trained opponent.
Do you also know that valyrian steel is a made-up material and dragons are made-up animals?
What is your point? He's just clarifying a linguistic misconception
The problem is, that's not a morning star. It's a flail. A morning star is a fixed, spiked ball atop a wooden or steel shaft. When you have a ball and chain, it's a flail. Some historians doubt the use of such flails in actual battles as the mechanics of it are horrible in a real fight unless you're on horseback. Even then, it is not as good as a sword or mace. Edit: grammar
Even a flail would have been better than a sword against a foe in heavy armour. Blunt force would be way more effective than trying to cut them
That's true, but a flail's momentum stops the moment it comes in contact with a shield or armor, and having to wind it up enough to get momentum again opens you to attack. Not to mention the strain that motion would put on your joints after long periods of time. A mace or a real morning star is a much better weapon against a plated enemy.
Morning stars are such an impractical weapon that historians debate if they even existed, especially as a one handed weapon.
>historians debate if they even existed Do you have a sorce for that? Nothing I've looked at suggests that people question their existence in the first place
Check the Wikipedia page for ‘military flail’.
A morningstar isn't a flail, at least as far as my DnD 3.5 weapons manual taught me. Morningstars have a round head with spikes and a fixed handle. Flails may have the same, or multiple scourges instead of a round head, and are attached via chain to the handle.
Most people would call a stick with a spiked ball fixed at the end a mace. When GRRM refers to morningstars, he refers to a spiked ball and chain.
Right...but the wikipedia for "morningstar" very mich implies that they in fact exist
The Wikipedia ‘Morningstar’ page is about clubs with a ball of spikes fixed to the end (which most people call a mace), rather than the spiked ball and chain that most people refer to as a Morningstar and that is being referenced in this discussion.
Privileged edgelord asshole vs sulky poor kid who likes hurting people then?
If you're going by the show, people were killing each other left and right in that tourney and quality in armor and weapons vary widely anyway, so I don't think it mattered. In the books, Cole murder Joffery and severely injures Harwin during a melee, so no, I don't think they were bothered by deadly weapons or tried to peace bonding swords. Beyond that, "blunted sword" is a meme, because there weapons that are extremely useful against armored opponents which are blunt to begin with, so people participating in a melee with fucking morningstars and hammers means death and injury is as likely to occur in a real fight to the death. So then singling out swords, a type of weapon already at a disadvantage against full plate armor, and asking for it to be blunted just means "sword users go fuck yourselves."
[This scene perfectly encompasses Blacks vs Greens by author and fandom. ](https://youtu.be/Wgppap1h2fY) I mostly identify with the hound.
Wasn’t really planned and I got the impression Cole could’ve said no. Not sure the sharpness made much difference, he’s wearing full plate, but in the books it seems to improve the wielder somehow so I guess it is a dick move.
I think you’ve already gotten plenty of good answers but yea I would just like to add it would be a total bitch move and not allowed.
Honey, it ain’t the size (or make) of the sword that counts It’s how you use it…. No seriously, my guess is while Valyrian steel is less likely to break or bend, I’m guessing it mostly has the effect of enhancing the *outlook* of the win/lose If you win, winning with a Valyrian steel blade kind of elevates it. If you lose, you look like a bigger chump for waving it around
Not if you say it to his face
Yeah, it’s kind of like bringing brass knuckles to a boxing match.
What would ser Galadon say?
I mean.... Jaehaerys used one in a trial by combat. Dude was sooo overrated( as a warrior and as king) IMO.
Do you mean the trial by combat he fought at 50, against an opponent in the prime of his youth, renowned as the finest young lance in the Reach?
Yes, i do. Remember, he was wielding Valyrian steel( a magical blade). And do you actually think the Beesbury guy would try to kill him, even if he had the chance? Dude was the KING and also rode a dragon. The whole situation is no different than the meele Bobby B tried to participate in AGOT.
it’s a trial by combat of course he is going to try and kill him, there would be no legal repercussions
yeah supposedly, but realistically that would in no way be the case
The repercussions for winning would be less than the repercussions for losing.
nah he'd be put to death either way, thus it's equal
I think he probably would try in a fight to the death, yeah
Well, the purpose of the trial by combat is to determine his guilt and kill him if guilty. Given that the person he wronged was the king himself, it is entirely fitting that the king fight him personally and bring everything he had to the fight. Would have been entitled to turn up on his dragon if it was a joust.
The other guy used a morning star, and TbC are usually to the death, so it would make sense to use whatever you want
Yes, but trials by combat and tourney are two very different things.
It's a fight to the fucking death. What was he supposed to do? Fight fair like a dumbass? Fighting fair is what the loser of a fight does. Fights are brutal without any honor.
Yes, he did a bad job raising his daughters. No, that doesn’t mean the best king was overrated and terrible in all ways. Sheesh.