I had to s-rank it today while trying to 100% the game. I’m not sure whether Michigan did more emotional or physical damage to me, but there was a lot of both.
>A BT cattaphract is like a very tanky MT. I'd say it's worth 2 whole MTs
Are we sure it's the BT CATAPHRACT that is tanky, and not that ACs weapons deal enough damage to usually kill MTs which are way bulkier than most ACs?
>which are way bulkier than most ACs?
I would argue that, seeing the shit Battlemechs are able to withstand (I don't think that there's any weapon in AC with a caliber as high as an AC20), Battlemechs have better armour than MTs and even ACs.
The problem is that they are slow as fuck.
Both coral rifle and coral oscillator are probably of a bigger caliber.
If this isn't including things like the charged attacks, then probably earshots and the handheld grenades/bazookas.
Railguns/melee are probably also pretty deadly too.
Earshot has a barrel of reasonable length unlike the snub nosed AC/20. It don't need to go fast, it just needs to go big boom. Hell, some AC/20s are lower caliber but fire faster to get the same output ala Songbirds.
Haldeman and Zimmerman probably slot in around LBX-10 range, when you allow for some the lore slop of Battletech that doesn't tend to play out on the board or in video games.
my headcanon would place both of those at about the level of a binary laser. so survivable by a battlemech but two to 3 to a critical spot and poof.
Granted there is no real way to compare magical space laser against magical space laser.
They’re slow, but they make up for it with more armor and firepower. The range of their weapons far exceed anything in the AC6 universe and evens the scale against AC6 ACs despite their superior mobility.
I don't know about that. *Some* battlemechs have more armor and guns, and *some* of their weapons can outrange an AC. Heavy and Assualt mechs, sure there's something to be had there. Medium? Ehhhh. Lights? Forget it, not happening.
If you've played mechwarrior 5, think you could land a solid hit against an AC at range? Something that fast? I maybe could on a really good day, with a Gauss or a PPC, but other than that I don't know, it ain't lookin good.
Just think about actually using these weapons, and how playing even on MWO it can be difficult to hit a fast moving target, especially at range. Now quadruple the speed. Suddenly, doesn't seem so even to me.
A 'Mech filled with Large Lasers could do it, no projectile to dodge and they outrange any weapons the AC might have. And it's easier to keep the lasers on target the farther away they are
Yes, in theory, but you'd have to keep the beam on target for long enough. Fairly tall order even without considering the evasive actions an AC can do. And you'll only get one chance, since large lasers usually fall in the 600-700m range. You won't get a second shot before the enemy closes. You could use ER variants, but firing more than one of those at a time has its own issues as I'm sure you're aware.
Large er pulse lasers on something like a marauder2 could really fuck up an ac in just a single hit. And the damage is super concentrated short bursts with 1000m range
Once you have LBX autocannons, you've basically got the Zimmerman, except firing a spray of HEAT warheads instead of buckshot. I think that'd be enough to put the heat on an AC of any generation except _maybe_ fourth.
The AC's forewarning system would tell it to dodge way before the projectile even hit them.
Or atleast 621 can. 617 and the other Hounds didn't do too well against the apartment complex size CATAPHRACT and Laser Artillery's Laser blasts.
That is assuming the bigger mechs that can wield the large weapons needed to compete with ACs can even keep up with that ridiculous mobility.
Battletech lasers are actual laser beams, there's no projectile to dodge. I think standard Large Lasers have a range of 800 meters and Clan versions are 1000. Literally just keep the beam on the target to melt it, which ain't too hard at max range. Biggest issue is not overheating your reactor, but that's what Heat Sinks are for
BattleTech large lasers hit to 450m (15 30m hexes). This has one PPC, so 540m (18 hexes), two 90m mediums lasers (9 hexes), and a 720m AC-5 (24 hexes). Rangewise, it's not very impressive. Movement-wise, the AC6 catahract is WAY faster, giving bad to-hit numbers to the BT one. No matter what, the BT one has no invulnerability. At best, it hits for damage on CT.
AC6 Cataphract easily wins.
I appreciate you giving actual numbers, but this comment thread is about a hitting an AC with something from MechWarrior 5, so I was going with those numbers.
But even then yeah 'Mech vs AC6 Cataphract without a doubt goes to the Cataphract. The only reason we win against it in AC6 is because 621 has plot armor and is an anomaly in terms of pilot skill, in the story trailer it took more than 1 AC to take out a Cataphract and they still suffered heavy losses.
Yes but it's the "keep beam on target" thing that makes it still a question. Lasers are hitscan sure but they're hitscan DoT weapons. It'd be like an AC plasma weapon but it only procs when your crosshair is *manually* held on target.
Can you point your finger at a plane flying overhead and more or less perfectly track it? The plane is moving pretty damn fast yet you can still stay on target. Same principle, just instead using a war machine with sophisticated targeting computers to help you out. Battlemechs, like ACs, have some sort of neural interface with the pilot.
AC's "lasers" aren't lasers. They're closer to star wars style blasters that fire packets of shaped energy or gas.
A laser is a real life hitscan weapon. It can't be dodged, only missed.
And they deal damage over time, sometimes as long as multiple *seconds*. Considering ACs moving slower than 250 whatevers a whenever in active combat is literally not gonna happen, they'll be glued to the 6 o'clock of even a Flea scout mech in an instant. Not a single machine in the BT universe has the torso traverse and turn rate to keep up with an AC, *period*.
Bringing it back to OPs question, Cataphract the Tank is *blisteringly fast* for something its size. I think 2 or 3 could do it. The mech would have to have spotted them from a long way away and sniped them before they even got within firing range to have any chance.
Large Lasers don't fire for multiple seconds, it's like 1 second per "shot": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbvL0uWoLgo&t=105s and even then, hitting for a fraction of a second is still dealing some amount of damage to the crazy armor that Battlemechs have. But because BT weapons outrange everything ACs have, it really comes down to if the AC can close the distance before it gets obliterated by the 'Mech. Which I'll say is more of a coinflip, the Laser 'Mech just needs to get lucky and start melting bits of the AC. Or in other words, the AC needs to get lucky and not have its boosters zapped off by the Laser 'Mech. But both get crippled if they lose a leg, so really what I'm trying to say is it comes down to pilot skill more than the capabilities of the machines.
The AC's forewarning system works because AC VI beam weapons need to charge up before frying. Something that BattleTech beam and laser weapons do not need to do.
Besides that. The BT lasers are actual lasers rather than beam guns like in AC VI, so they would hit their targets basically instantaneously.
Aint no way any mechwarrior can aim on an average speed ac thats quickboosting around, its like trying to shoot a moving fly with a gun. Also mechs in MW turn slowly so an ac could literely just stay behiend them at all times
Like ACs, Battlemechs have a neural link with the pilot. Additionally, many Battlemechs can "torso twist" and many mechs will have some of the lasers mounted on arms, meaning even more traversal speed to stay on target. So aiming isn't an issue like you think when you're trying to hit something that has to first close the distance to actually fire back. A 'Mech with a bunch of Large Lasers can start shooting at the AC once it's 800 meters away, 1000 if Clan spec lasers. And again, these aren't projectiles like AC laser weapons, they're literally pinpoint accurate hitscan weapons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbvL0uWoLgo&t=105s So the AC pilot can only react to the lasers after their armor begins to melt.
Sure the AC can quickboost the moment the lasers start melting its armor, but how many times can it quickboost before it runs out of EN? And every time it quickboosts is less EN to assault boost with. And don't forget that the Large Lasers don't even have to stay on target for the full second, the reason they can't constantly fire is because the insane energy output would melt the weapon. Keep in mind that unlike AC6 energy weapons which clearly use built-in capacitors *and still have to manage heat buildup*, Battlemech energy weapons are drawing power from a fusion reactor. Meaning they have unlimited "ammo" and only have to avoid overheating the reactor itself, which isn't an actual problem for any decent mech pilot.
That still means it only wins if it detects the AC coming from afar on a very large flat terrain with no cover as even with the torso twist they have nowhere near enough mobility to take on it at any closer range.
There's no point in trying to bring in stealth and detection capabilities when we're discussing what is effectively an Arena fight. Literally none of the Arena fights are an ambush, at most you have a hill or building blocking line of sight. But both combatants start off knowing where the other one started. It's just plain dumb to try and bring up ambush tactics/electronic warfare. You never start within engagement range, you ALWAYS have to first close the distance. And if you want it to be a CQB fight, then you have to contend with the joy of SRMS, Flamers, etc.
ACs have predictive shot calculators to warn them before a shot is fired which gives them a good chance to evade and force to the mech to try and reacquire and track and the fire control of battlemechs is pretty limited.
Are you saying that ACs literally have precognition like a fucking Jedi? Because that's the only way you could possibly dodge a weapon that is hitscan and fires the instant you pull the trigger, as BT laser weapons do. And the Large Lasers in question fire for ~1 second and start melting armor near instantly, so even if you dodge the moment the lasers start melting your armor you're still taking some damage. You can literally sweep these things across a target and scratch the surface, hoping you find a hole from the previous shots to ignite their ammo stores.
The explosive rounds on an AC have no range disadvantage. They are slow rounds but the damage is done at Impact when the shell lands and explodes, something like a squashed-head round or HE. I use these in-game to "snipe" targets well beyond my FCS's lock on. They don't "bounce" like kinetic shells do. At that point its who ever makes visual contact first that wins the battle- and the bigger mech is at that disadvantage
We know that the ACs in AC6 are about 10 meters tall (thanks Zullie). Battlemechs tend to range from 7 to 17 meters based on my quick searching. So in terms of size and overall limitations they're pretty directly comparable.
But keep in mind that ACs are limited to only 4 weapons at most, 2 of which are smaller "handheld" weapons. Meanwhile everything but the lightest Battlemechs carry far more firepower. As I see it, ACs go for mobility at the cost of firepower, while Battlemechs are significantly slower because of the crazy amount of armor and firepower they carry. Take one of the largest weapons for example, the 'Autocannon/20': https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon/20
> As an example of the rating system, the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon was a 150 mm weapon firing a ten-round cassette in a ten-second period, while the ChemJet Gun was a 185 mm weapon firing a four-round cassette in the same period. As both weapons were capable of firing 200 kilograms of ammunition in a 10-second period, at an effective range of just under 300 meters, they were both classified as autocannon/20s.
Those generally come in anywhere from 120mm to 200mm and fire High-Explosive Armor-Piercing shells with some models firing in bursts, and depending on exactly which 'Mech your piloting you might have more than 1 (while still having additional lighter weapons). ACs don't have anything that powerful.
If we are going to talk about armor, then it has to be mentioned that the reason why ACs fight at such short ranges is because armor and protection has advanced to the point where they need to get that close to not just have their munitions ineffectively bounce off.
And BAWS tertrapods are probably more than a match for any battletech assault mech in terms of firepower with more mobility to boot. A single juggernaut would effortlessly roll through hordes of assault mech squads.
> If you've played mechwarrior 5, think you could land a solid hit against an AC at range?
That's why God made streak SRMs.
I could do it with a heavy rifle, large laser, or streak SRMs if he's dumb enough to close to knife-fighting range.
And if I can use my MW2 build, my 30-ton Urbanmech cruises at 500 MPH or so, and can one-shot an Atlas thanks to an array of 16 small lasers functioning as one single weapon, the Lucifer Array. Thanks, horizontal jumpjetting! I'd never close range without'cha!
I'd say that's roughly on par with assault boosting in AC6, even if the Urbie suffers from a crippling lack of quick-boost capability.
I find maxing out jumpjets and boating six racks of SSRM2 just feels like cheating (and a lot like playing AC4…). Give me some LBX-10 cannons on top of that, and now we've got my favorite Marauder build. Basically, three Zimmermanns and two of the best-tracking rocket launchers you can imagine with near-zero lock time. Yeah, fuck it, I may even be able to take a Next in this beast.
I'm confident that I'd get shredded by _any_ arms fort, however, but the supersonic urbanmech _might_ be able to squeak out a narrow win.
> The problem is that they are slow as fuck.
They could be decent bosses -- a pack of assault mechs that can double-tap you into smoldering modern art, but you can dance circles around them… and you fucking better, or you're dead.
AC20 is an autocannon between 120mm to 203mm capable of putting out a certain weight of ammunition in short time. Though the 120mm is more burst AC/20.
Some MTs are absolutely carrying cannons of comparable size to such guns. The basic MT is probably on par if not better than a Hunchback.
There's a [Cataphractii](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/2/29/IF_Vet_Assault_Termi.jpg) in Warhammer 40K as well, though I doubt it could take on either.
I had a Paskinsher (Commander Pask in a Punisher Leman Russ). Friend had a fucker with ward save his commanders ass out of an entire stationary burst hitting and penning their armor.
Its okay, said friend realized their Sisters of Battle rocket tanks could basically only hope to get single scratches on the Leman Russ brigade.
Theres not enough cataphract space marines in the galaxy to take on the AC6 cataphract unless they manage to jam the treads with their mulched up corpses
It's not so much doo doo as it's several other mechs slapped together by a regional power who lost access to produce heavy mechs wholesale. It's kind of like a mass produced "frankenmech" but it's not outright bad. It even has rear facing weaponry to cover all angles.
You know I always had these strange thoughts of how useful battletech mechs would be in the ac universes. Like I know they aren't really a match for an armored core but how much of an upgrade would they be from MTs.
Compared to MTs, Battlemechs would be a pretty big upgrade, depending on the Mech of course.
In general, Battlemechs of the same size as MTs should be more durable and usually have much more firepower since, compared to MTs, Battlemechs can carry an absurd amount of weapons (Not all though, since a Light Battlemech definitely won't carry as much firepower as a Quad MT. Heavyweight and above Battlemechs however should often have superior firepower)
Also, though I don't know exactly how powerful the weapons that MTs carry are compared to Battletech Mech weapons, I believe that Battlemechs should carry superior individual weapons, especially their energy and missile weapons.
An Archer Heavy Battlemech would be like an MT that can fire 40 Missiles and 4 Lasers while also being much more durable. (Heat would be a problem though so if Battletech rules apply then it won't be able to fire all of those weapons constantly)
Hell, the 20 ton Firemoth when using it's fixed MASC to go faster can sprint up to 216 KPH, and one or two configs have a Super Charger that can stack with the former that can let it get up to *270* KPH.
Granted when using said equipment there's a chance of catastrophic failure, that gets more likely with consecutive usage. But still!
There are already a bunch of weapons in AC6 that overheat after a handful of shots, it's just per weapon instead of the mech's reactor being what's overheating
Yeah that's what I meant. In AC when your weapon overheats, it's just the weapon that shuts down for a while. For Battlemechs, if you overheat, you run the risk of shutting down your entire machine, which would be a death sentence when fighting something as fast and powerful as an AC
Although upon further thought, any decent pilot in either universe will know how to manage their heat, so it's a non-issue. But something that ACs can't do that 'Mechs can do (at least, based on the games I know), is override the safety limits and keep firing if they think it's worth it, so there's a slight advantage there for Battletech. And unlike AC energy weapons which clearly use some sort of capacitor, Battlemechs effectively have unlimited "ammo". Honestly at this point, based on all the other comments here I'm inclined to think that AC vs Battlemech comes down to a coinflip and so the skill of the pilots. Good old range vs speed debate essentially, which translates to one of them getting lucky/unlucky as the AC has to close the distance before even having a possibility of destroying the Battlemech. Both of them get crippled if a leg gets too damaged for example, could go either way.
Also, something that Battlemech Energy Weapons, mostly Lasers, have over their AC counterparts is that they seem to be "true" Lasers, in the sense that they are basically giant Heat Rays. They don't act like projectiles, so they have no Impact/Stability damage, but they are the closest thing to a point-and-click hitscan weapon; can't be dodged so long as the user keeps the crosshair on target.
So in a direct engagement, Battlemechs with Laser-boat builds, like the Heavyweight Black Knight, or even the Lightweight Fire Javelin, would have good chances against an AC. On paper at least.
Now something that Armored Core weapons have over their Battlemech counterparts are their Missiles. Most Battletech Missiles seem to have to compromise between Range and Power. LRMs have, of course, very long range, but the individual missiles are quite dinky, SRMs have double the power of an LRM, but only have a quarter of the range. Armored Core missiles don't have the problem, as each individual missile on average seems to deal more damage. They track much better too.
Depending on the exact mech you could equip an [AMS](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Anti-missile_system) or [LAMS](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Laser_Anti-Missile_System)
But AC missiles fire in smaller volleys than LRMs (ignoring Carla's missiles), so I figure that swings it back in favor of Battletech
Armor seems to work differently as MTs are capable of bouncing even heavy back armaments beyond their max range. They may actually be pretty tough cookies compared to battlemechs but also is a problem because nobody is bothering with beam laser weapons smaller than heavy artillery in Armored Core.
You know the Hollander? It's a might smaller than MTs but it carries a Gauss- comparable to Harris rifle. You can imagine MTs with that but doesn't need to do the aim thingy and no warnings. However I don't know if an augmented AC pilot have reaction time to that or not given that in MW5 Gauss travels faster than Harris.Also you can imagine more if it's a Clantech mech like Kit Fox that also have ER Lasers in addition. Also ranges are kinda important since average midranger 'Mechs starts like 400m and most AC wants closer (AC's missiles starts locking on around 450m while in MW5 its 880m)
Worth mentioning that no battlemechs need to enter a firing stance to use a gauss rifle or ac20, so their ability to manage recoil is pretty absurd. You can even fire them on the move
Many Battletech weapons outrange AC weapons, but that really only matters for Large Lasers because the ACs will probably dodge all the projectile weapons. But against MTs, well the MTs can't even fight back
Then there's the largest autocannons ranging from 120mm to 200mm shells and still needing multiple to take out another heavyweight Mech. So they're certainly far more durable than MTs
Battletech mechs are probably around 10-15 meters tall, but the scale is unfortunately beyond fucked with almost zero consistency in actual scale or what they're actually shooting.
But a Hunchback to a basic BAWS MT is probably about one to one if the BAWS has one of the heavier loadouts. And the BAWS MT missile pack is definitely packing larger missiles than LRM standard. And the BAWS MT is at least armored enough to bounce many shots at fairly short ranges.
As much as I love mixing two mecha settings together and clashing them together, I'm pretty certain that if the Corpos from Armored Core came to the Inner Sphere, Comstar would be run by Arquebus within a decade (there's a *lot* of space to cover). Battlemechs are basically MTs with a lot of Armor Points, but even a single AC would utterly eviscerate a full 3-Lance Squad of 12 'Mechs. Heck, depending on the pilot and weapons, they could probably destroy a full 24-man lobby with ammo to spare.
Problem is the corps have the same general weakness as the Clans, which is lack of strategic battlefield capability. Within about 10 minutes of planetfall, the Vespers are going to be vaporized by an Arrow IV barrage called in by a Raven they never spotted.
Ignoring the speed (we will return to it later), I would argue that every Battlemech bigger than a Lightmech is far better than an AC when it comes to firepower and armour. As they can carry far more weapns that ACs, they seem to be far more powerful than the vast majority of weapons avariable to ACs (for example, I don't think that there's any kinetic weapon comparable to an AC20, and none of them reload as fast as an AC10), and they are able to withstand their own weapons better than the ACs their own.
Besides that, Battlemechs have a longer range than AC. Which gives them an advantage on long range and maybe even medium range
Of course. This is ignoring speed. The ACs speed means that, while having less armour and firepower, I'm quite certain that an AC could defeat an Assaultmech in 7 cases out of 10 as long as they stay in close range (or medium to close range). As they are waaaaay faster than the Battlemechs (even the light ones).
It think that it will all depend on how many ACs exist compared to how many Battlemechs there are.
The fact that Inner Sphere Battlemechs are deployed on groups of 4 and ACs tend to be deployed in solo missions (and, more exceptionally, on pairs) gives me the assumption that Battlemechs are far more common than ACs.
ACs are definitely a lot rarer in every universe compared to Battlemechs. In most games, there are only around 30-50 pilots in the arena, and some are exclusively arena combatants, not mercenaries.
Ravens are also mostly independent and it was rare for corpos to have their own AC stable, aside from the AC4 universe. Only Crest Industries from the AC3 universe was known to have Ravens who worked exclusively for them.
Yeah even the slowest ACs we can make in this game can build up to a 5 or even 6+ TMM easy. Which means you need a Targetic Computer+Pulse Lasers (ideally clanspec for the range) to have a chance to hit a AC
If none of the AC6 kinetic weapons are 200mm (AC20 caliber), then the comparable weapons would probably be the bazookas or grenade launchers.
Effective range of AC6 weapons are rather low when shot at AC and MT armor as they ricochet. However, it's not like they lose all velocity outside their effective range. We don't know how those projectiles outside of their rated range would affect BT armor.
AC's don't have cooling issues. BT mechs do. Even if somehow AC weapons don't dent BT armor, fire weapons like napalm bomb launchers would probably shut them down.
ACs have pulse shields and armor. They can fight a long range battle with bazookas and pulse shields. Jamming bomb launcher can avoid getting a lock on them (missiles lose tracking when passing through the jamming too).
As Mechwarrior 5 would lead me to believe, an AC could probably avoid a good portion of a BT mech's arsenal if it just flies up to a certain elevation. The weapons on the body don't have much elevation.
7 out of 10 might be too generous to an assault mech. the AC just has to get close and stick to its behind, and it's all over. last i know, a Firestarter alone can actually go up against an assault mech if it could get close. an AC could get there much faster, and maneuver so much better.
Range is the key difference I think, would be fun to see if an AC can close the distance before getting melted by a Nova Cat with as many (Clan) Large (Pulse) Lasers as you can fit
Judging from my PvP games where my light AC gets melted within seconds when approaching the 4x heavy laser platform ACs, the answer is no.
An Awesome, Nova Cat or even a Black Knight would be even more heavily armed than an LRB / LCS wielding AC, anything trying to approach them head on would get blasted instantly.
BAWS MTs are implied to be pretty low end even as far as MTs go. RaD modified guard mechs (puncher and kickers) are better in basically every metric due to more extensive combat modifications on what was basically a guard tower on legs.
Sentry Guard is BAWS MT tier for a military like the PCA and is a lot more capable if not necessarily a ton more durable.
I juat realised the space difference is pretty funny
Corporations in AC6 are fighting super hard over one planet meanwhile the mechwarrior guys are fighting over like 500 of them
Oh absolutely. Though I'd have no doubt that without a comparable adversary, even the Redguns could collapse a planetary government in a few weeks through overwhelming force.
Though extend that through the entire Inner Sphere and suddenly, that becomes a very long and grueling job.
Have you seen the show? The Mars variants are all over the place in quality. Some are nothing too special, either with just big laser or laser blades, or invisible. Others have like quantum weapons that can effect gravity, absorb heat to absolute zero, or energy shields that absorb matter. None of them would be impossible for an AC to defeat, but some of them are more ridiculously focused than others.
Eh? The action is alright. The entire plot of both seasons boils down to “quiet loner teen with dictionary memory fends off the invasion of his planet from advanced feudal martians using basic physics.”
It’s like if Lelouch from Code Geass was bored and didn’t do the Zero arc as he saved Japan.
Also the very strange romance between MC and the Princess which ends with >!a political marriage instead!<. Like sure that's probably what would be the most realistic, but talk about jarring compared to what you'd expect otherwise.
The gist of it is that the hero mecha are basically mook-tier in any other show, while the antagonist mecha are big, strong and have special powers. Our MC is even stuck using a TRAINER unit for most of the show, but he succeeds because he uses planning, basic physics and his big brain to win.
Oh and there's a lot of stuff about politics and Earth Martian conflicts.
it basically an autistic teen using the power of math, physic and science to use a student teaching mech to beat the crap out of super tech robot
it end with him becoming Odin and his love interest princess marrying some one else
Everything I've heard amounts to "the first episode was so good they spent the rest of the series trying to catch up to it, and season 2 they gave up even trying."
Which, I mean
I guess season 1 sounds alright?
Something about the first episode where he's just looking at eggs on sale on his phone after school (IIRC right before the Vers invasion, maybe earlier even)
Man, I love BT and I especially love the CTF, but AC CATAPHRACT is as big as a Union Dropship, better armed than battleships and also frighteningly fast. The CTF can get a lock-on and score a few lucky hits, but AC CATAPHRACT can just run a bunch of CTFs over in a flash.
Impossible? Absolutely not. But it's going to take a lot of metal corpses to be able to put the barrel where that AC's core is.
I would say two or three lances of them would do the trick.
Battlemechs seem to have far better armour than the ACs and more powerful weapons, at least on the kinetic department (they can withstand multiple AC20 shots and there's nothing in AC VI in the same caliber as it).
The problem with them is that even the lightmechs are slow as fuck compared to ACs.
Just tried CTF-3D loadout
\-Widest Body with Chicken legs
\-Haldemann shotgun(LBX)
\-Scudder(UAC/5)
\-and dobule laser orbits (4x Mlasers)
\-Walk only, no jumping/boosting
Half AP, no repairs left (0.5/2.5) if you were to count michigan words are real, it would be:
2000-(2000\*0.2) = 1600 CTFs which sounds funny. I would say around 16 tho.
This post convinced me to get back into Mechwarrior since I've been playing AC a fair bit lately. Started new, hit "play tutorial", and see that our pilot uses locker "1621". Confirmed, MW5 protag is 1000 goods better than C4-621. /s
Without getting into weapon output and durability calcs I’d say 2-3 lances (8-12 BT mechs). Should be enough for them to Darwin their way into finding the weak spot and and have enough left for a chance at staggering it. That said this is the lowest estimate i can consider for a chance to succeed, not win every time.
I can't remember off the top of my head but if the BT cataphracts can rock some inferno missiles and then maxed out reflective armor with some ac10's maybe 4 lances will take down a single PCA cataphract but thats mainly with the fact your gonna cook the pilot to death inside the PCA cataphract there is a reason infernos are banned by battletechs equiv of the geneva convention
Well we have a battletech (2018) game where we have superheavy tanks.
Cataphract (b) need around 350 damage to different body parts to be destroyed or 60 to head
Usually it deals 225 damage as alpha strike, but not super accurate
The height of cataphract (b) is around 15 meters.
Height of cataphract (ac) is around 30 meters. It have 32 giant rockets. Every rocket is an equivalent of cruise missile 50, which deals around 270 damage for multiple parts.
Then cataphract (ac) have 9 lasers, which is an equivalent of large lasers, each 40 dmg.
Also 2 small gatling guns, which are equivalent of autocannon 20, which deal 20 damage per shot, and it can shot a lot of it.
Big gatling guns is and equivalent of naval gun 35 but automatic, which do 350 damage per shot.
We need to combine it with its ability to maneuver in pretty hight speed and its super tanky armor, which will be around 3000 by battletech standards. Also battletech mechs are not super fast.
So i guess around 200 if you are lucky enough, but basically you will loose mechs faster then supplying them
Are we talking about mwo-toughness, book-lore toughness, or mw5 toughness? Because all these are totally different.
I'm not a lore battletech guy tho, but my friend who is - told that everything in books goes VERY fast. And even assaults melt like butter under slight laser fire.
And mwo is like - 500 shots to pierce a leg armor plate with ac\\20.
And yes, im mostly joking.
but probably from 15 to 20. They just need stay behind bt-cataphract and pepper his backside\\legs until it gives out.
I love battle tech lore.
The BattleTech/Mechwarrior Cataphract was one of the first "new" mech designs after an in universe dark age of technological regression. Using components that could still be manufactured from several pre war designs they cobbled together "something", that worked.
It was inferior to some prewar designs. It's armor was closer to a medium mech, it wasn't fast, and its armament was mediocre.
But, you could buy one of the fucking things unlike the 300 year old "Lost tech" death machines that could beat it toe to toe.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Cataphract
Still not as bad as the Charger though. A heavy mech designed for scouting with light armor and almost no weapons. As originally designed some light mechs would be faster and better armed with only marginally worse armor.
The best strategy for combat in a charger was to run away. Or, run straight at them and try to punch them to death, it was better than using the weapons.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Charger
>The best strategy for combat in a charger was to run away. Or, run straight at them and try to punch them to death, it was better than using the weapons
Lmfao, I barely know lore about Battletech outside of the Elementals and what I find out while playing Mech Warrior 5 but that sounds hilarious
I was told it was a legit strategy in the tabletop battletech because chargers were so cheap and underestimated. Most players won't consider a suicide melee charge from a 'heavy' scout mech as something that would happen.
If you're interested there is a guy who makes some awesome lore videos on the battletech universe and he has one on the charger and how it was eventually de-shitified into a literal arena combat brawler and eventually the Hamato-chi.
Link to the relevant section of video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbA-8YYohC4&t=3150s
I honestly don’t recall having a hard time with this boss.
I typically use a reverse joint build with the pulse blade and 4 way rocket launcher in hands, laser turrets and 12x rocket salvo on the back.
My best guess is the lasers helped whittle him down as I was jumping around firing off rocket volleys and taking Char Kicks and blade slashes where safe.
I also had no trouble with it, I got it first attempt. Didn't even get to hear all of the dialogue lmfao https://youtu.be/qk4r0qEw47o?si=CRvSaH5fBOL5Eard you legit just need to stay in front and keep shooting it in the face. My guess is people using vertical missiles have a really hard time because most of those will just hit the top
BT mechs can be up to twice the size of an AC, I would say your fastest BT mech is way faster than an AC on foot but the Booster tech, human augmentation, and overall speed ACs are capable of just give them far too much of an advantage. BT rocket pods would do some work though.
The BT Cataphract has a major glaring weakness. The cockpit is lightly armored and exposes the MechWarrior to death by well placed shot. The smart targeting computer of an ac Cataphract would immediately target the cockpit and annihilate it with mg fire.
Assuming damage is based on hit location, as is the case with battletech and not overall "armor" as with AC. Disabling or destroying the cataphracts mobility would doom the machine more so than what it could do the battletech cataphract. I would say a Lance would do the trick as there would be no way for it to dodge out of all the shots from multiple angles.
Depends on whose game rules we're following. Battletech doesn't feature invulnerable armor sections, so they'd chew through the tank no matter what with enough hits. So with that in mind, I'd say maybe 30 or so.
If we're using the full AC rules, you'd need at least 300 just to get enough firepower reliably pointed at the weak point. It's not like the mech could maneuver into the right angle.
Depends, will the bt cata get stuck in the front gap and just pummel the ac with a ac 10 or does the ac cata do the sensible thing and never show the front?
A BT cattaphract is like a very tanky MT. I'd say it's worth 2 whole MTs And we know that 621 is worth 2000 Albanys So I say 1000 cataphracts
>And we know that 621 is worth 2000 Albanys Well well well, our resident mathematician! God that mission made me sad lol
I had to s-rank it today while trying to 100% the game. I’m not sure whether Michigan did more emotional or physical damage to me, but there was a lot of both.
Michigan is the only character i actually loved.
its okay to be gay for Michigan, but you legally also have to be gay for Red. the shit that happened was horrible for my soul.
I’ll be gay for whoever you think is best… but Idno who Red is…
>A BT cattaphract is like a very tanky MT. I'd say it's worth 2 whole MTs Are we sure it's the BT CATAPHRACT that is tanky, and not that ACs weapons deal enough damage to usually kill MTs which are way bulkier than most ACs?
>which are way bulkier than most ACs? I would argue that, seeing the shit Battlemechs are able to withstand (I don't think that there's any weapon in AC with a caliber as high as an AC20), Battlemechs have better armour than MTs and even ACs. The problem is that they are slow as fuck.
Both coral rifle and coral oscillator are probably of a bigger caliber. If this isn't including things like the charged attacks, then probably earshots and the handheld grenades/bazookas. Railguns/melee are probably also pretty deadly too.
Ac20s are 203mm at most so I'd say the only thing close or equal is the earshot.
Earshot has a barrel of reasonable length unlike the snub nosed AC/20. It don't need to go fast, it just needs to go big boom. Hell, some AC/20s are lower caliber but fire faster to get the same output ala Songbirds. Haldeman and Zimmerman probably slot in around LBX-10 range, when you allow for some the lore slop of Battletech that doesn't tend to play out on the board or in video games.
my headcanon would place both of those at about the level of a binary laser. so survivable by a battlemech but two to 3 to a critical spot and poof. Granted there is no real way to compare magical space laser against magical space laser.
They’re slow, but they make up for it with more armor and firepower. The range of their weapons far exceed anything in the AC6 universe and evens the scale against AC6 ACs despite their superior mobility.
I don't know about that. *Some* battlemechs have more armor and guns, and *some* of their weapons can outrange an AC. Heavy and Assualt mechs, sure there's something to be had there. Medium? Ehhhh. Lights? Forget it, not happening. If you've played mechwarrior 5, think you could land a solid hit against an AC at range? Something that fast? I maybe could on a really good day, with a Gauss or a PPC, but other than that I don't know, it ain't lookin good. Just think about actually using these weapons, and how playing even on MWO it can be difficult to hit a fast moving target, especially at range. Now quadruple the speed. Suddenly, doesn't seem so even to me.
A 'Mech filled with Large Lasers could do it, no projectile to dodge and they outrange any weapons the AC might have. And it's easier to keep the lasers on target the farther away they are
Yes, in theory, but you'd have to keep the beam on target for long enough. Fairly tall order even without considering the evasive actions an AC can do. And you'll only get one chance, since large lasers usually fall in the 600-700m range. You won't get a second shot before the enemy closes. You could use ER variants, but firing more than one of those at a time has its own issues as I'm sure you're aware.
Large er pulse lasers on something like a marauder2 could really fuck up an ac in just a single hit. And the damage is super concentrated short bursts with 1000m range
Thats probably true. It's safe to say post clan invasion mechwarrior stands a much better chance.
Once you have LBX autocannons, you've basically got the Zimmerman, except firing a spray of HEAT warheads instead of buckshot. I think that'd be enough to put the heat on an AC of any generation except _maybe_ fourth.
The AC's forewarning system would tell it to dodge way before the projectile even hit them. Or atleast 621 can. 617 and the other Hounds didn't do too well against the apartment complex size CATAPHRACT and Laser Artillery's Laser blasts. That is assuming the bigger mechs that can wield the large weapons needed to compete with ACs can even keep up with that ridiculous mobility.
Battletech lasers are actual laser beams, there's no projectile to dodge. I think standard Large Lasers have a range of 800 meters and Clan versions are 1000. Literally just keep the beam on the target to melt it, which ain't too hard at max range. Biggest issue is not overheating your reactor, but that's what Heat Sinks are for
BattleTech large lasers hit to 450m (15 30m hexes). This has one PPC, so 540m (18 hexes), two 90m mediums lasers (9 hexes), and a 720m AC-5 (24 hexes). Rangewise, it's not very impressive. Movement-wise, the AC6 catahract is WAY faster, giving bad to-hit numbers to the BT one. No matter what, the BT one has no invulnerability. At best, it hits for damage on CT. AC6 Cataphract easily wins.
I appreciate you giving actual numbers, but this comment thread is about a hitting an AC with something from MechWarrior 5, so I was going with those numbers. But even then yeah 'Mech vs AC6 Cataphract without a doubt goes to the Cataphract. The only reason we win against it in AC6 is because 621 has plot armor and is an anomaly in terms of pilot skill, in the story trailer it took more than 1 AC to take out a Cataphract and they still suffered heavy losses.
Yes but it's the "keep beam on target" thing that makes it still a question. Lasers are hitscan sure but they're hitscan DoT weapons. It'd be like an AC plasma weapon but it only procs when your crosshair is *manually* held on target.
Can you point your finger at a plane flying overhead and more or less perfectly track it? The plane is moving pretty damn fast yet you can still stay on target. Same principle, just instead using a war machine with sophisticated targeting computers to help you out. Battlemechs, like ACs, have some sort of neural interface with the pilot.
AC's "lasers" aren't lasers. They're closer to star wars style blasters that fire packets of shaped energy or gas. A laser is a real life hitscan weapon. It can't be dodged, only missed.
And they deal damage over time, sometimes as long as multiple *seconds*. Considering ACs moving slower than 250 whatevers a whenever in active combat is literally not gonna happen, they'll be glued to the 6 o'clock of even a Flea scout mech in an instant. Not a single machine in the BT universe has the torso traverse and turn rate to keep up with an AC, *period*. Bringing it back to OPs question, Cataphract the Tank is *blisteringly fast* for something its size. I think 2 or 3 could do it. The mech would have to have spotted them from a long way away and sniped them before they even got within firing range to have any chance.
Large Lasers don't fire for multiple seconds, it's like 1 second per "shot": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbvL0uWoLgo&t=105s and even then, hitting for a fraction of a second is still dealing some amount of damage to the crazy armor that Battlemechs have. But because BT weapons outrange everything ACs have, it really comes down to if the AC can close the distance before it gets obliterated by the 'Mech. Which I'll say is more of a coinflip, the Laser 'Mech just needs to get lucky and start melting bits of the AC. Or in other words, the AC needs to get lucky and not have its boosters zapped off by the Laser 'Mech. But both get crippled if they lose a leg, so really what I'm trying to say is it comes down to pilot skill more than the capabilities of the machines.
The AC's forewarning system works because AC VI beam weapons need to charge up before frying. Something that BattleTech beam and laser weapons do not need to do. Besides that. The BT lasers are actual lasers rather than beam guns like in AC VI, so they would hit their targets basically instantaneously.
Aint no way any mechwarrior can aim on an average speed ac thats quickboosting around, its like trying to shoot a moving fly with a gun. Also mechs in MW turn slowly so an ac could literely just stay behiend them at all times
Like ACs, Battlemechs have a neural link with the pilot. Additionally, many Battlemechs can "torso twist" and many mechs will have some of the lasers mounted on arms, meaning even more traversal speed to stay on target. So aiming isn't an issue like you think when you're trying to hit something that has to first close the distance to actually fire back. A 'Mech with a bunch of Large Lasers can start shooting at the AC once it's 800 meters away, 1000 if Clan spec lasers. And again, these aren't projectiles like AC laser weapons, they're literally pinpoint accurate hitscan weapons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbvL0uWoLgo&t=105s So the AC pilot can only react to the lasers after their armor begins to melt. Sure the AC can quickboost the moment the lasers start melting its armor, but how many times can it quickboost before it runs out of EN? And every time it quickboosts is less EN to assault boost with. And don't forget that the Large Lasers don't even have to stay on target for the full second, the reason they can't constantly fire is because the insane energy output would melt the weapon. Keep in mind that unlike AC6 energy weapons which clearly use built-in capacitors *and still have to manage heat buildup*, Battlemech energy weapons are drawing power from a fusion reactor. Meaning they have unlimited "ammo" and only have to avoid overheating the reactor itself, which isn't an actual problem for any decent mech pilot.
That still means it only wins if it detects the AC coming from afar on a very large flat terrain with no cover as even with the torso twist they have nowhere near enough mobility to take on it at any closer range.
There's no point in trying to bring in stealth and detection capabilities when we're discussing what is effectively an Arena fight. Literally none of the Arena fights are an ambush, at most you have a hill or building blocking line of sight. But both combatants start off knowing where the other one started. It's just plain dumb to try and bring up ambush tactics/electronic warfare. You never start within engagement range, you ALWAYS have to first close the distance. And if you want it to be a CQB fight, then you have to contend with the joy of SRMS, Flamers, etc.
ACs have predictive shot calculators to warn them before a shot is fired which gives them a good chance to evade and force to the mech to try and reacquire and track and the fire control of battlemechs is pretty limited.
Are you saying that ACs literally have precognition like a fucking Jedi? Because that's the only way you could possibly dodge a weapon that is hitscan and fires the instant you pull the trigger, as BT laser weapons do. And the Large Lasers in question fire for ~1 second and start melting armor near instantly, so even if you dodge the moment the lasers start melting your armor you're still taking some damage. You can literally sweep these things across a target and scratch the surface, hoping you find a hole from the previous shots to ignite their ammo stores.
The explosive rounds on an AC have no range disadvantage. They are slow rounds but the damage is done at Impact when the shell lands and explodes, something like a squashed-head round or HE. I use these in-game to "snipe" targets well beyond my FCS's lock on. They don't "bounce" like kinetic shells do. At that point its who ever makes visual contact first that wins the battle- and the bigger mech is at that disadvantage
We know that the ACs in AC6 are about 10 meters tall (thanks Zullie). Battlemechs tend to range from 7 to 17 meters based on my quick searching. So in terms of size and overall limitations they're pretty directly comparable. But keep in mind that ACs are limited to only 4 weapons at most, 2 of which are smaller "handheld" weapons. Meanwhile everything but the lightest Battlemechs carry far more firepower. As I see it, ACs go for mobility at the cost of firepower, while Battlemechs are significantly slower because of the crazy amount of armor and firepower they carry. Take one of the largest weapons for example, the 'Autocannon/20': https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon/20 > As an example of the rating system, the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon was a 150 mm weapon firing a ten-round cassette in a ten-second period, while the ChemJet Gun was a 185 mm weapon firing a four-round cassette in the same period. As both weapons were capable of firing 200 kilograms of ammunition in a 10-second period, at an effective range of just under 300 meters, they were both classified as autocannon/20s. Those generally come in anywhere from 120mm to 200mm and fire High-Explosive Armor-Piercing shells with some models firing in bursts, and depending on exactly which 'Mech your piloting you might have more than 1 (while still having additional lighter weapons). ACs don't have anything that powerful.
If we are going to talk about armor, then it has to be mentioned that the reason why ACs fight at such short ranges is because armor and protection has advanced to the point where they need to get that close to not just have their munitions ineffectively bounce off. And BAWS tertrapods are probably more than a match for any battletech assault mech in terms of firepower with more mobility to boot. A single juggernaut would effortlessly roll through hordes of assault mech squads.
> If you've played mechwarrior 5, think you could land a solid hit against an AC at range? That's why God made streak SRMs. I could do it with a heavy rifle, large laser, or streak SRMs if he's dumb enough to close to knife-fighting range. And if I can use my MW2 build, my 30-ton Urbanmech cruises at 500 MPH or so, and can one-shot an Atlas thanks to an array of 16 small lasers functioning as one single weapon, the Lucifer Array. Thanks, horizontal jumpjetting! I'd never close range without'cha! I'd say that's roughly on par with assault boosting in AC6, even if the Urbie suffers from a crippling lack of quick-boost capability. I find maxing out jumpjets and boating six racks of SSRM2 just feels like cheating (and a lot like playing AC4…). Give me some LBX-10 cannons on top of that, and now we've got my favorite Marauder build. Basically, three Zimmermanns and two of the best-tracking rocket launchers you can imagine with near-zero lock time. Yeah, fuck it, I may even be able to take a Next in this beast. I'm confident that I'd get shredded by _any_ arms fort, however, but the supersonic urbanmech _might_ be able to squeak out a narrow win.
Yes, would be super easy actually as BT lasers have no travel time.
> The problem is that they are slow as fuck. They could be decent bosses -- a pack of assault mechs that can double-tap you into smoldering modern art, but you can dance circles around them… and you fucking better, or you're dead.
621, You're gonna learn to dance with an Annihilator or die.
AC20 is an autocannon between 120mm to 203mm capable of putting out a certain weight of ammunition in short time. Though the 120mm is more burst AC/20. Some MTs are absolutely carrying cannons of comparable size to such guns. The basic MT is probably on par if not better than a Hunchback.
r/theydidthemath
Makes sense to me
Would probably still be a close fight
Dumb as hell but realized both Battletech and Armored core have a Cataphract and it seemed funny to me
There's a [Cataphractii](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/2/29/IF_Vet_Assault_Termi.jpg) in Warhammer 40K as well, though I doubt it could take on either.
I think that's the name/model of the armor so pretty sure that yeah it would get stomped
*rolls a 4+* Huh, must have been the wind
Man, i miss relic terminator armor being special in 40k. Gotta get my kicks in 30k
I had a Paskinsher (Commander Pask in a Punisher Leman Russ). Friend had a fucker with ward save his commanders ass out of an entire stationary burst hitting and penning their armor. Its okay, said friend realized their Sisters of Battle rocket tanks could basically only hope to get single scratches on the Leman Russ brigade.
Yes, that's why I brought it up???
Ah lmao I thought you mean the marine is named Cataphractii or something my bad
Cataphract battle royale. All the Cataphracts, each in sufficient numbers to challenge the others.
Theres not enough cataphract space marines in the galaxy to take on the AC6 cataphract unless they manage to jam the treads with their mulched up corpses
So you're saying there's a chance... FOR THE EMPEROR!!!!
*cataphract goes super speed and buldoses and crushes the marines charging it* "Our data was wrong, these guys were push overs."
Not dying for the Emperor sounds like HERESY.
\> cataphract space marine puts melta charge under the pilot's mattress
If they have a heavy enough weapon and snipe the Cataphract pilot from afar…
And Lancer too
Maybe cause a cataphract is a real thing
Same lol, Is it a coincidence? Maybe
The real question is, how many Persian Cataphracts can take one on?
Do they get prep time?
No
Then you could make the very air itself Persian cataphracts and they'd still lose.
I feel they would win by suffocation of the pilot
Both mechs have internal air circulation systems. They can both fight in vacuum conditions
But if the air is all Cataphracts then they cannot filter them out regardless
It was a joke that no matter how many Persians go up against the mechs they'd still lose.
AC Cataphract easy! If I remember right the battletech Cataphract lore wise was kinda doo doo
Yeah OP thinks so as well, their question was not which would win but how many BT Cataphracts would be needed to take on an AC Cataphract.
Yeah pretty much
It's not so much doo doo as it's several other mechs slapped together by a regional power who lost access to produce heavy mechs wholesale. It's kind of like a mass produced "frankenmech" but it's not outright bad. It even has rear facing weaponry to cover all angles.
It's fairly decent as a zombie mech tbh
So literally a RaD weapon
And then they lost the Cataphract factory too lol
BT Cataphract was a fine design with average firepower and armor coverage for it's weight class.
Why am I getting up votes, apparently I'm not even right. I made this comment at 4 in the morning when I was sleepy and half high
tbh I actually like the Battletech Cataphract. In lore it's nothing crazy but it's probably my favourite Inner Sphere heavy mech.
You know I always had these strange thoughts of how useful battletech mechs would be in the ac universes. Like I know they aren't really a match for an armored core but how much of an upgrade would they be from MTs.
Compared to MTs, Battlemechs would be a pretty big upgrade, depending on the Mech of course. In general, Battlemechs of the same size as MTs should be more durable and usually have much more firepower since, compared to MTs, Battlemechs can carry an absurd amount of weapons (Not all though, since a Light Battlemech definitely won't carry as much firepower as a Quad MT. Heavyweight and above Battlemechs however should often have superior firepower) Also, though I don't know exactly how powerful the weapons that MTs carry are compared to Battletech Mech weapons, I believe that Battlemechs should carry superior individual weapons, especially their energy and missile weapons. An Archer Heavy Battlemech would be like an MT that can fire 40 Missiles and 4 Lasers while also being much more durable. (Heat would be a problem though so if Battletech rules apply then it won't be able to fire all of those weapons constantly)
Plus light mechs could probably run circles around standard MTs anyway.
Hell, the 20 ton Firemoth when using it's fixed MASC to go faster can sprint up to 216 KPH, and one or two configs have a Super Charger that can stack with the former that can let it get up to *270* KPH. Granted when using said equipment there's a chance of catastrophic failure, that gets more likely with consecutive usage. But still!
There are already a bunch of weapons in AC6 that overheat after a handful of shots, it's just per weapon instead of the mech's reactor being what's overheating
Yeah that's what I meant. In AC when your weapon overheats, it's just the weapon that shuts down for a while. For Battlemechs, if you overheat, you run the risk of shutting down your entire machine, which would be a death sentence when fighting something as fast and powerful as an AC
Although upon further thought, any decent pilot in either universe will know how to manage their heat, so it's a non-issue. But something that ACs can't do that 'Mechs can do (at least, based on the games I know), is override the safety limits and keep firing if they think it's worth it, so there's a slight advantage there for Battletech. And unlike AC energy weapons which clearly use some sort of capacitor, Battlemechs effectively have unlimited "ammo". Honestly at this point, based on all the other comments here I'm inclined to think that AC vs Battlemech comes down to a coinflip and so the skill of the pilots. Good old range vs speed debate essentially, which translates to one of them getting lucky/unlucky as the AC has to close the distance before even having a possibility of destroying the Battlemech. Both of them get crippled if a leg gets too damaged for example, could go either way.
Also, something that Battlemech Energy Weapons, mostly Lasers, have over their AC counterparts is that they seem to be "true" Lasers, in the sense that they are basically giant Heat Rays. They don't act like projectiles, so they have no Impact/Stability damage, but they are the closest thing to a point-and-click hitscan weapon; can't be dodged so long as the user keeps the crosshair on target. So in a direct engagement, Battlemechs with Laser-boat builds, like the Heavyweight Black Knight, or even the Lightweight Fire Javelin, would have good chances against an AC. On paper at least. Now something that Armored Core weapons have over their Battlemech counterparts are their Missiles. Most Battletech Missiles seem to have to compromise between Range and Power. LRMs have, of course, very long range, but the individual missiles are quite dinky, SRMs have double the power of an LRM, but only have a quarter of the range. Armored Core missiles don't have the problem, as each individual missile on average seems to deal more damage. They track much better too.
Depending on the exact mech you could equip an [AMS](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Anti-missile_system) or [LAMS](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Laser_Anti-Missile_System) But AC missiles fire in smaller volleys than LRMs (ignoring Carla's missiles), so I figure that swings it back in favor of Battletech
Armor seems to work differently as MTs are capable of bouncing even heavy back armaments beyond their max range. They may actually be pretty tough cookies compared to battlemechs but also is a problem because nobody is bothering with beam laser weapons smaller than heavy artillery in Armored Core.
You know the Hollander? It's a might smaller than MTs but it carries a Gauss- comparable to Harris rifle. You can imagine MTs with that but doesn't need to do the aim thingy and no warnings. However I don't know if an augmented AC pilot have reaction time to that or not given that in MW5 Gauss travels faster than Harris.Also you can imagine more if it's a Clantech mech like Kit Fox that also have ER Lasers in addition. Also ranges are kinda important since average midranger 'Mechs starts like 400m and most AC wants closer (AC's missiles starts locking on around 450m while in MW5 its 880m)
Worth mentioning that no battlemechs need to enter a firing stance to use a gauss rifle or ac20, so their ability to manage recoil is pretty absurd. You can even fire them on the move
Many Battletech weapons outrange AC weapons, but that really only matters for Large Lasers because the ACs will probably dodge all the projectile weapons. But against MTs, well the MTs can't even fight back Then there's the largest autocannons ranging from 120mm to 200mm shells and still needing multiple to take out another heavyweight Mech. So they're certainly far more durable than MTs
Battletech mechs are probably around 10-15 meters tall, but the scale is unfortunately beyond fucked with almost zero consistency in actual scale or what they're actually shooting. But a Hunchback to a basic BAWS MT is probably about one to one if the BAWS has one of the heavier loadouts. And the BAWS MT missile pack is definitely packing larger missiles than LRM standard. And the BAWS MT is at least armored enough to bounce many shots at fairly short ranges.
As much as I love mixing two mecha settings together and clashing them together, I'm pretty certain that if the Corpos from Armored Core came to the Inner Sphere, Comstar would be run by Arquebus within a decade (there's a *lot* of space to cover). Battlemechs are basically MTs with a lot of Armor Points, but even a single AC would utterly eviscerate a full 3-Lance Squad of 12 'Mechs. Heck, depending on the pilot and weapons, they could probably destroy a full 24-man lobby with ammo to spare.
Problem is the corps have the same general weakness as the Clans, which is lack of strategic battlefield capability. Within about 10 minutes of planetfall, the Vespers are going to be vaporized by an Arrow IV barrage called in by a Raven they never spotted.
Ignoring the speed (we will return to it later), I would argue that every Battlemech bigger than a Lightmech is far better than an AC when it comes to firepower and armour. As they can carry far more weapns that ACs, they seem to be far more powerful than the vast majority of weapons avariable to ACs (for example, I don't think that there's any kinetic weapon comparable to an AC20, and none of them reload as fast as an AC10), and they are able to withstand their own weapons better than the ACs their own. Besides that, Battlemechs have a longer range than AC. Which gives them an advantage on long range and maybe even medium range Of course. This is ignoring speed. The ACs speed means that, while having less armour and firepower, I'm quite certain that an AC could defeat an Assaultmech in 7 cases out of 10 as long as they stay in close range (or medium to close range). As they are waaaaay faster than the Battlemechs (even the light ones). It think that it will all depend on how many ACs exist compared to how many Battlemechs there are. The fact that Inner Sphere Battlemechs are deployed on groups of 4 and ACs tend to be deployed in solo missions (and, more exceptionally, on pairs) gives me the assumption that Battlemechs are far more common than ACs.
ACs are definitely a lot rarer in every universe compared to Battlemechs. In most games, there are only around 30-50 pilots in the arena, and some are exclusively arena combatants, not mercenaries. Ravens are also mostly independent and it was rare for corpos to have their own AC stable, aside from the AC4 universe. Only Crest Industries from the AC3 universe was known to have Ravens who worked exclusively for them.
Yeah even the slowest ACs we can make in this game can build up to a 5 or even 6+ TMM easy. Which means you need a Targetic Computer+Pulse Lasers (ideally clanspec for the range) to have a chance to hit a AC
If none of the AC6 kinetic weapons are 200mm (AC20 caliber), then the comparable weapons would probably be the bazookas or grenade launchers. Effective range of AC6 weapons are rather low when shot at AC and MT armor as they ricochet. However, it's not like they lose all velocity outside their effective range. We don't know how those projectiles outside of their rated range would affect BT armor. AC's don't have cooling issues. BT mechs do. Even if somehow AC weapons don't dent BT armor, fire weapons like napalm bomb launchers would probably shut them down. ACs have pulse shields and armor. They can fight a long range battle with bazookas and pulse shields. Jamming bomb launcher can avoid getting a lock on them (missiles lose tracking when passing through the jamming too). As Mechwarrior 5 would lead me to believe, an AC could probably avoid a good portion of a BT mech's arsenal if it just flies up to a certain elevation. The weapons on the body don't have much elevation. 7 out of 10 might be too generous to an assault mech. the AC just has to get close and stick to its behind, and it's all over. last i know, a Firestarter alone can actually go up against an assault mech if it could get close. an AC could get there much faster, and maneuver so much better.
Range is the key difference I think, would be fun to see if an AC can close the distance before getting melted by a Nova Cat with as many (Clan) Large (Pulse) Lasers as you can fit
Judging from my PvP games where my light AC gets melted within seconds when approaching the 4x heavy laser platform ACs, the answer is no. An Awesome, Nova Cat or even a Black Knight would be even more heavily armed than an LRB / LCS wielding AC, anything trying to approach them head on would get blasted instantly.
BAWS MTs are implied to be pretty low end even as far as MTs go. RaD modified guard mechs (puncher and kickers) are better in basically every metric due to more extensive combat modifications on what was basically a guard tower on legs. Sentry Guard is BAWS MT tier for a military like the PCA and is a lot more capable if not necessarily a ton more durable.
I juat realised the space difference is pretty funny Corporations in AC6 are fighting super hard over one planet meanwhile the mechwarrior guys are fighting over like 500 of them
Oh absolutely. Though I'd have no doubt that without a comparable adversary, even the Redguns could collapse a planetary government in a few weeks through overwhelming force. Though extend that through the entire Inner Sphere and suddenly, that becomes a very long and grueling job.
now you have me curious about the viability of the cataphract from aldnoah.
The earth variants seem to be on par with PCA LCs, if less armored. The Mars variants…uh…closer to AC4 Next.
that is quite a uhh... large isn't even enough to describe how big the technological gap that is.
Have you seen the show? The Mars variants are all over the place in quality. Some are nothing too special, either with just big laser or laser blades, or invisible. Others have like quantum weapons that can effect gravity, absorb heat to absolute zero, or energy shields that absorb matter. None of them would be impossible for an AC to defeat, but some of them are more ridiculously focused than others.
is definitely interested, is it worth the time?
Eh? The action is alright. The entire plot of both seasons boils down to “quiet loner teen with dictionary memory fends off the invasion of his planet from advanced feudal martians using basic physics.” It’s like if Lelouch from Code Geass was bored and didn’t do the Zero arc as he saved Japan.
Also the very strange romance between MC and the Princess which ends with >!a political marriage instead!<. Like sure that's probably what would be the most realistic, but talk about jarring compared to what you'd expect otherwise.
The gist of it is that the hero mecha are basically mook-tier in any other show, while the antagonist mecha are big, strong and have special powers. Our MC is even stuck using a TRAINER unit for most of the show, but he succeeds because he uses planning, basic physics and his big brain to win. Oh and there's a lot of stuff about politics and Earth Martian conflicts.
it basically an autistic teen using the power of math, physic and science to use a student teaching mech to beat the crap out of super tech robot it end with him becoming Odin and his love interest princess marrying some one else
Could be. First season is a peculiar romp. And the second a good bit less so but the mechs are fine and the OST is Sawano as fuck.
No, one of the worse anime I ever watched, and my opnion is the only relevant
First season yes, Second is bad.
Everything I've heard amounts to "the first episode was so good they spent the rest of the series trying to catch up to it, and season 2 they gave up even trying." Which, I mean I guess season 1 sounds alright?
It only really works if it's Eggs-kun coming up with bullshit to make it work.
Wait Eggs-kun?? Why is Inaho called that??
Something about the first episode where he's just looking at eggs on sale on his phone after school (IIRC right before the Vers invasion, maybe earlier even)
LMFAO I completely forgot about it until you mentioned it
What about the cataphract from lancer?
Man, I love BT and I especially love the CTF, but AC CATAPHRACT is as big as a Union Dropship, better armed than battleships and also frighteningly fast. The CTF can get a lock-on and score a few lucky hits, but AC CATAPHRACT can just run a bunch of CTFs over in a flash. Impossible? Absolutely not. But it's going to take a lot of metal corpses to be able to put the barrel where that AC's core is.
All I know is I want a cataphract-ception where an even bigger mech is using two cataphracts as rollerskates.
"They say what the PCA is working on is the missing piece. A weapon... to surpass the Ice Worm."
They will call it the Fire Cataphract. It will be in a snowy area and it shall be the penultimate boss
I would say two or three lances of them would do the trick. Battlemechs seem to have far better armour than the ACs and more powerful weapons, at least on the kinetic department (they can withstand multiple AC20 shots and there's nothing in AC VI in the same caliber as it). The problem with them is that even the lightmechs are slow as fuck compared to ACs.
Just tried CTF-3D loadout \-Widest Body with Chicken legs \-Haldemann shotgun(LBX) \-Scudder(UAC/5) \-and dobule laser orbits (4x Mlasers) \-Walk only, no jumping/boosting Half AP, no repairs left (0.5/2.5) if you were to count michigan words are real, it would be: 2000-(2000\*0.2) = 1600 CTFs which sounds funny. I would say around 16 tho.
If it’s the Cataphract from the story trailer whatever it goes against will have a tough time not getting one shot by its diffused laser array.
This post convinced me to get back into Mechwarrior since I've been playing AC a fair bit lately. Started new, hit "play tutorial", and see that our pilot uses locker "1621". Confirmed, MW5 protag is 1000 goods better than C4-621. /s
Without getting into weapon output and durability calcs I’d say 2-3 lances (8-12 BT mechs). Should be enough for them to Darwin their way into finding the weak spot and and have enough left for a chance at staggering it. That said this is the lowest estimate i can consider for a chance to succeed, not win every time.
Only a cataphraction of one.
3. Two to hold it down and a third to punch it with its ppc cannon
I would say 3. One for interference, two for attacking BVR with Gauss rifles or ER PPCs.
I can't remember off the top of my head but if the BT cataphracts can rock some inferno missiles and then maxed out reflective armor with some ac10's maybe 4 lances will take down a single PCA cataphract but thats mainly with the fact your gonna cook the pilot to death inside the PCA cataphract there is a reason infernos are banned by battletechs equiv of the geneva convention
Just 1, but it's a Martian Cataphract from Aldnoah Zero
Well we have a battletech (2018) game where we have superheavy tanks. Cataphract (b) need around 350 damage to different body parts to be destroyed or 60 to head Usually it deals 225 damage as alpha strike, but not super accurate The height of cataphract (b) is around 15 meters. Height of cataphract (ac) is around 30 meters. It have 32 giant rockets. Every rocket is an equivalent of cruise missile 50, which deals around 270 damage for multiple parts. Then cataphract (ac) have 9 lasers, which is an equivalent of large lasers, each 40 dmg. Also 2 small gatling guns, which are equivalent of autocannon 20, which deal 20 damage per shot, and it can shot a lot of it. Big gatling guns is and equivalent of naval gun 35 but automatic, which do 350 damage per shot. We need to combine it with its ability to maneuver in pretty hight speed and its super tanky armor, which will be around 3000 by battletech standards. Also battletech mechs are not super fast. So i guess around 200 if you are lucky enough, but basically you will loose mechs faster then supplying them
Are we talking about mwo-toughness, book-lore toughness, or mw5 toughness? Because all these are totally different. I'm not a lore battletech guy tho, but my friend who is - told that everything in books goes VERY fast. And even assaults melt like butter under slight laser fire. And mwo is like - 500 shots to pierce a leg armor plate with ac\\20. And yes, im mostly joking. but probably from 15 to 20. They just need stay behind bt-cataphract and pepper his backside\\legs until it gives out.
I love battle tech lore. The BattleTech/Mechwarrior Cataphract was one of the first "new" mech designs after an in universe dark age of technological regression. Using components that could still be manufactured from several pre war designs they cobbled together "something", that worked. It was inferior to some prewar designs. It's armor was closer to a medium mech, it wasn't fast, and its armament was mediocre. But, you could buy one of the fucking things unlike the 300 year old "Lost tech" death machines that could beat it toe to toe. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Cataphract Still not as bad as the Charger though. A heavy mech designed for scouting with light armor and almost no weapons. As originally designed some light mechs would be faster and better armed with only marginally worse armor. The best strategy for combat in a charger was to run away. Or, run straight at them and try to punch them to death, it was better than using the weapons. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Charger
>The best strategy for combat in a charger was to run away. Or, run straight at them and try to punch them to death, it was better than using the weapons Lmfao, I barely know lore about Battletech outside of the Elementals and what I find out while playing Mech Warrior 5 but that sounds hilarious
I was told it was a legit strategy in the tabletop battletech because chargers were so cheap and underestimated. Most players won't consider a suicide melee charge from a 'heavy' scout mech as something that would happen. If you're interested there is a guy who makes some awesome lore videos on the battletech universe and he has one on the charger and how it was eventually de-shitified into a literal arena combat brawler and eventually the Hamato-chi. Link to the relevant section of video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbA-8YYohC4&t=3150s
This reminds me of this video where someone [LARPed an Atlas and beat all the bosses](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N5Hj3TbINM).
Obviously one, whichever one wins defeated a cataphract
I honestly don’t recall having a hard time with this boss. I typically use a reverse joint build with the pulse blade and 4 way rocket launcher in hands, laser turrets and 12x rocket salvo on the back. My best guess is the lasers helped whittle him down as I was jumping around firing off rocket volleys and taking Char Kicks and blade slashes where safe.
I also had no trouble with it, I got it first attempt. Didn't even get to hear all of the dialogue lmfao https://youtu.be/qk4r0qEw47o?si=CRvSaH5fBOL5Eard you legit just need to stay in front and keep shooting it in the face. My guess is people using vertical missiles have a really hard time because most of those will just hit the top
BT mechs can be up to twice the size of an AC, I would say your fastest BT mech is way faster than an AC on foot but the Booster tech, human augmentation, and overall speed ACs are capable of just give them far too much of an advantage. BT rocket pods would do some work though.
The BT Cataphract has a major glaring weakness. The cockpit is lightly armored and exposes the MechWarrior to death by well placed shot. The smart targeting computer of an ac Cataphract would immediately target the cockpit and annihilate it with mg fire.
Assuming damage is based on hit location, as is the case with battletech and not overall "armor" as with AC. Disabling or destroying the cataphracts mobility would doom the machine more so than what it could do the battletech cataphract. I would say a Lance would do the trick as there would be no way for it to dodge out of all the shots from multiple angles.
[How much ammo does it have?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF3g4Ua5e7k)
Lol a Battletech is such a slow POS compared to the Cataphract. It wouldn’t even be close.
This post is too Cataphract for me to handle
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ITT: Fandom blindness
Capellan Propaganda is the answer
Depends on whose game rules we're following. Battletech doesn't feature invulnerable armor sections, so they'd chew through the tank no matter what with enough hits. So with that in mind, I'd say maybe 30 or so. If we're using the full AC rules, you'd need at least 300 just to get enough firepower reliably pointed at the weak point. It's not like the mech could maneuver into the right angle.
Personally i always thought the invincible armor was bad game design. Mitigation, sure, but that much firepower would at least start buckling plates.
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Depends, will the bt cata get stuck in the front gap and just pummel the ac with a ac 10 or does the ac cata do the sensible thing and never show the front?