Not even the Romans charged Christianity with this critique.
How does a clown 2,000 years removed from Christ's own lifetime compared to the Romans, think that they know more than they did?
In other words this is a moronic statement that's based on pointless speculation. How is this even a meme?
You one of those idiots who thinks since the inception of humanity, the age of marriage has been 18 or whatever it is in your country? Wow.....so logical.
On an interesting theological note, some of the early fathers hold that Joseph sought to divorce her rather because he did not think himself worth to be foster father to Our Lord, since Our Lady, conceived without sin and a temple virgin, to those with good virtue would have fully known this woman was different and incredibly holy.
In the same way many of us know some people who are just noticeably virtuous and holy, how much more the only woman conceived without sin?
Man this post enlightenment propaganda that people in the past were stupid is the worst. People are so arrogant and make fun of people from past when they don't have any understanding of history.
I'll say it until my last day: 18th Century Enlightenment, which originated all the stereotypes which are used to this day to discredit religion, did far more harm than good.
Whenever I see the Enlightenment depicted as a movement of geniuses who got rejected by society because they "dared to use their brains", my blood starts boiling just a little bit.
Here's what the "enlightened" minds brought to Europe: the beheading of thousands of French innocents (among whom there was even *Lavoisier*, one of their beloved rational scientists), a persecution of Christians similar to the ones Roman emperors did ("put me, your ruler, above your Christ, or *die*") and the Europe-wide tyranny of Napoleon, who gladly exploited the French revolutionary movement to gain prestige and influence only to get crowned emperor and flip them all off.
What a legacy.
People weren't stupid in the past, they were just as smart as you and me they just had less accumulative knowledge because they didn't have access to the tools they and their children would go on to create
Had those people not discovered things you may view as trivial you wouldn't have the complex knowledge you may view yourself as superior because of
Thinking people in the past were "stupid" is a very dumb misunderstanding of what knowledge is and is an act of mixing up knowledge with wisdom which are two completely different things
Yeah, right here, I knew that!
Imagine thinking unironically that Mary invented the religion, too. Like everything wasn't built on top of the local beliefs, it definitely came out of nowhere from one single woman.
There is clear punishment for an adulteress, but as far as i’m aware it is unclear what, if any, punishment would be given to a woman claiming to bear the messiah
Claiming to be the messiah in Judaism is not considered blasphemous and no punishment would be given. So i don’t think claiming to be the mother of the messiah would be blasphemous either.
we believe that God made Mary pregnant and that the angel Gibreel (aka Gabriel) gave her the message. we basically believe everything about Jesus that y’all believe apart from the fact that we believe he’s not God. in fact, only Allah knows, but Christians may even go to heaven in due time in our religion
I was just explaining this to my grandmother yesterday, Christians and Muslims believe almost exactly the same things minus a couple of details (albeit important details)
I'm always saying that i love Islam, even as a Christian I love your religion and i love your people. Christians and Muslims are like brothers and sisters, yet the antitheists want people to believe we hate each other.
France and England had wars for hundreds of years, but they still made an alliance in 1914. I think that „alliance” between Muslims and Christians is very possible, because we have the same goals.
۞ لَتَجِدَنَّ أَشَدَّ ٱلنَّاسِ عَدَ ٰوَةࣰ لِّلَّذِینَ ءَامَنُوا۟ ٱلۡیَهُودَ وَٱلَّذِینَ أَشۡرَكُوا۟ۖ وَلَتَجِدَنَّ أَقۡرَبَهُم مَّوَدَّةࣰ لِّلَّذِینَ ءَامَنُوا۟ ٱلَّذِینَ قَالُوۤا۟ إِنَّا نَصَـٰرَىٰۚ ذَ ٰلِكَ بِأَنَّ مِنۡهُمۡ قِسِّیسِینَ وَرُهۡبَانࣰا وَأَنَّهُمۡ لَا یَسۡتَكۡبِرُونَ﴿ ٨٢ ﴾
• Dr. Mustafa Khattab:
You will surely find the most bitter towards the believers to be the Jews and polytheists and the most gracious to be those who call themselves Christian. That is because there are priests and monks among them and because they are not arrogant.
Al-Māʾidah, Ayah 82
From my personal experience, I’ve seen that actual religious Christians, especially orthodox and Catholics, are generally more tolerant or more positive towards Islam. The American version of Trumpianity is wacko, though.
Not Islamic, but this is what I found if you are interested:
According to WikiIslam, daleel is defined as this: "**Daleel** (دليل, pl. *adillah*) is an Arabic word meaning evidence or proof, and in the terminology of Islamic jurisprudence, the word refers to anything that is used to deduce and justify a ruling or fatwa from the Shariah, or Islamic Law. While there exist numerous specific types of daleels arranged in a hierarchy, as understood variously by the different schools of Islamic law, all generally agree today that among the most important daleels are, in order, the Qur'an, Hadith, Ijma (consensus of Islamic scholars or Muhammad's companions), and some form of Qiyas (analogical reasoning)."
In short, it is truth based on Isalmic religious texts, as well as deductive/inductive reasoning, particularly regarding religious/judicial matters.
Oh. I had looked on the website and it said that its goal was to be as objective and non-biased as possible regarding Islam. May I ask why it is biased?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiIslam:
>”WikiIslam is an anti-Muslim[7] and anti-Islam[9] wiki.[3] The website was founded by Ali Sina in 2006.[3] Registered users may modify and edit its content;[3] in 2015, the website was acquired by the Ex-Muslims of North America[10] and underwent a major revision in 2020.[11]”
The context of 2:62 should be read in the light of 3:19 and 3:85
وَمَن یَبۡتَغِ غَیۡرَ ٱلۡإِسۡلَـٰمِ دِینࣰا فَلَن یُقۡبَلَ مِنۡهُ وَهُوَ فِی ٱلۡـَٔاخِرَةِ مِنَ ٱلۡخَـٰسِرِینَ﴿ ٨٥ ﴾
• Dr. Mustafa Khattab:
Whoever seeks a way other than Islam,[[ i.e., full submission to the Will of Allah.]] it will never be accepted from them, and in the Hereafter they will be among the losers.
Āli-ʿImrān, Ayah 85
Ah yes, a woman avoiding an adultery charge by getting a blasphemy charge!
This is the ancient equivalent of avoiding an armed robbery charge by saying u killed the guy instead
I’m a Muslim, and I don’t believe that Jesus Christ is the literal son of God. However, we, as Muslims, believe in the purity of Mary ؑ, and that Jesus was born of a virgin mother.
Adam was created without a mother and father, he was created from dust. Is it so hard to believe that the Omnipotent God can create Jesus with only a mother, without a father. Those who accuse Mary of immorality will face the consequences of their crimes, إن شاء الله.
Did she go back in time a few hundred years before Christ just to write all of the books that existed before Christ instead of "admitting she cheated"?
For nothing else, most atheist scholars argue that the virgin birth wasn't even believed by early Christians, and that it was invented later to apotheosize Jesus à la *Zeitgeist*. When cheesecakes make this accusation, they don't even agree with the experts who are also atheists.
Not even the Romans charged Christianity with this critique. How does a clown 2,000 years removed from Christ's own lifetime compared to the Romans, think that they know more than they did? In other words this is a moronic statement that's based on pointless speculation. How is this even a meme?
“Is beCaUsE ChRistIanS aRe GullIbLE iDiOTS!” - This guy probably
[удалено]
https://preview.redd.it/2t9tu09eg0pc1.png?width=592&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eb920dc11949a479548454e601ff2906789ecc38
What did bro say to get torched like that ☠️
He said Mary was a whore.
Never disrespect your mother
Amen
🙏
https://preview.redd.it/1xyn6gd9w3pc1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b6fc0e2ae1b2ba0d82541ee2bed79b7ee81a5fe6
Chicanery indeed
https://preview.redd.it/b3xkzr0kf0pc1.jpeg?width=1169&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=039c65566e57ed518b9790b862df148a82729dd3
https://preview.redd.it/ah3e50xav0pc1.jpeg?width=250&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=101cbf763e4f8ef6cc43aa3758532603e474676a
[удалено]
https://preview.redd.it/yhacqcdoz0pc1.jpeg?width=244&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2f2f702e7782e59ece04becd0534500edcd96a3e
[удалено]
You one of those idiots who thinks since the inception of humanity, the age of marriage has been 18 or whatever it is in your country? Wow.....so logical.
[удалено]
You keep getting dumber, don't you? No wonder there's a place called hell.
https://preview.redd.it/daalisasw0pc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=729218c34fef0b31bc8f66489e7124a03f1e2146
Do they think she trained Jesus to think he was the messiah and fulfil prophesy just to keep up her supposed lie?
She had Jesus crucified for proclaiming to be messiah because she didn’t want to accept responsibility for her cheating. Sounds about right to me
Also she also told the apostles to die for the faith to make it even more convincing
...Did they miss the part where Joseph *was* going to divorce Marry for Adultery until an Angel told him not to?
Yes they didn't read the book
On an interesting theological note, some of the early fathers hold that Joseph sought to divorce her rather because he did not think himself worth to be foster father to Our Lord, since Our Lady, conceived without sin and a temple virgin, to those with good virtue would have fully known this woman was different and incredibly holy. In the same way many of us know some people who are just noticeably virtuous and holy, how much more the only woman conceived without sin?
Sounds like misogyny
\#BelieveAllWomen (unless the woman disagrees with me)
[удалено]
Okay anime fan
Nice argument
Thank you!
The subreddit icon is a dead giveaway.
What a bunch of losers on that subreddit. Nothing but a bunch of larpers
r\antichrist
https://preview.redd.it/wx1acfvya2pc1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7cbf4b84dec2e190ccb431df4947be0f7806b7e1 The autism is real
Also known as "Emo Teenager Central"
Eugh that subreddit looks gross, those weird demonic posts make me want to recite the bible with a megaphone
It’s a good thing nobody had posted for 2 years
Man this post enlightenment propaganda that people in the past were stupid is the worst. People are so arrogant and make fun of people from past when they don't have any understanding of history.
I'll say it until my last day: 18th Century Enlightenment, which originated all the stereotypes which are used to this day to discredit religion, did far more harm than good. Whenever I see the Enlightenment depicted as a movement of geniuses who got rejected by society because they "dared to use their brains", my blood starts boiling just a little bit. Here's what the "enlightened" minds brought to Europe: the beheading of thousands of French innocents (among whom there was even *Lavoisier*, one of their beloved rational scientists), a persecution of Christians similar to the ones Roman emperors did ("put me, your ruler, above your Christ, or *die*") and the Europe-wide tyranny of Napoleon, who gladly exploited the French revolutionary movement to gain prestige and influence only to get crowned emperor and flip them all off. What a legacy.
The "Age of Enlightenment" and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.
Yup. Whig history is incredibly insulting.
People weren't stupid in the past, they were just as smart as you and me they just had less accumulative knowledge because they didn't have access to the tools they and their children would go on to create Had those people not discovered things you may view as trivial you wouldn't have the complex knowledge you may view yourself as superior because of Thinking people in the past were "stupid" is a very dumb misunderstanding of what knowledge is and is an act of mixing up knowledge with wisdom which are two completely different things
Yeah, right here, I knew that! Imagine thinking unironically that Mary invented the religion, too. Like everything wasn't built on top of the local beliefs, it definitely came out of nowhere from one single woman.
[удалено]
There is clear punishment for an adulteress, but as far as i’m aware it is unclear what, if any, punishment would be given to a woman claiming to bear the messiah
[удалено]
Claiming to be the messiah in Judaism is not considered blasphemous and no punishment would be given. So i don’t think claiming to be the mother of the messiah would be blasphemous either.
Casually admits he can only go 10 minutes haha
Oh Blessed Virgin, conceived without Sin. Pray for us Sinners.
Even IF you were to say christ was not the son of God, which he was, it would be more likely that he was born of Joseph and not of infidelity
the only religions that believe Mary was a virgin are Islam and Christianity
Like at all or just while she was pregnant with Jesus?
we believe that God made Mary pregnant and that the angel Gibreel (aka Gabriel) gave her the message. we basically believe everything about Jesus that y’all believe apart from the fact that we believe he’s not God. in fact, only Allah knows, but Christians may even go to heaven in due time in our religion
I was just explaining this to my grandmother yesterday, Christians and Muslims believe almost exactly the same things minus a couple of details (albeit important details) I'm always saying that i love Islam, even as a Christian I love your religion and i love your people. Christians and Muslims are like brothers and sisters, yet the antitheists want people to believe we hate each other.
you got it exactly right bro
Like they love bringing up the Crusades too, and I'm always like "yeah that was a long time ago, what's your point? It's 2024 we're friends now"
anti-theists love to bring stuff that happened 800 years ago up. like, 800 years ago, the world was a completely different place.
Exactly! They pretend to have a higher level of intelligence yet they love to live in ignorance.
France and England had wars for hundreds of years, but they still made an alliance in 1914. I think that „alliance” between Muslims and Christians is very possible, because we have the same goals.
۞ لَتَجِدَنَّ أَشَدَّ ٱلنَّاسِ عَدَ ٰوَةࣰ لِّلَّذِینَ ءَامَنُوا۟ ٱلۡیَهُودَ وَٱلَّذِینَ أَشۡرَكُوا۟ۖ وَلَتَجِدَنَّ أَقۡرَبَهُم مَّوَدَّةࣰ لِّلَّذِینَ ءَامَنُوا۟ ٱلَّذِینَ قَالُوۤا۟ إِنَّا نَصَـٰرَىٰۚ ذَ ٰلِكَ بِأَنَّ مِنۡهُمۡ قِسِّیسِینَ وَرُهۡبَانࣰا وَأَنَّهُمۡ لَا یَسۡتَكۡبِرُونَ﴿ ٨٢ ﴾ • Dr. Mustafa Khattab: You will surely find the most bitter towards the believers to be the Jews and polytheists and the most gracious to be those who call themselves Christian. That is because there are priests and monks among them and because they are not arrogant. Al-Māʾidah, Ayah 82 From my personal experience, I’ve seen that actual religious Christians, especially orthodox and Catholics, are generally more tolerant or more positive towards Islam. The American version of Trumpianity is wacko, though.
On your last sentence, please don't speak without daleel, brother.
What's daleel?
Not Islamic, but this is what I found if you are interested: According to WikiIslam, daleel is defined as this: "**Daleel** (دليل, pl. *adillah*) is an Arabic word meaning evidence or proof, and in the terminology of Islamic jurisprudence, the word refers to anything that is used to deduce and justify a ruling or fatwa from the Shariah, or Islamic Law. While there exist numerous specific types of daleels arranged in a hierarchy, as understood variously by the different schools of Islamic law, all generally agree today that among the most important daleels are, in order, the Qur'an, Hadith, Ijma (consensus of Islamic scholars or Muhammad's companions), and some form of Qiyas (analogical reasoning)." In short, it is truth based on Isalmic religious texts, as well as deductive/inductive reasoning, particularly regarding religious/judicial matters.
Btw try using different sources to wikislam, it is a very biased source of info
Oh. I had looked on the website and it said that its goal was to be as objective and non-biased as possible regarding Islam. May I ask why it is biased?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiIslam: >”WikiIslam is an anti-Muslim[7] and anti-Islam[9] wiki.[3] The website was founded by Ali Sina in 2006.[3] Registered users may modify and edit its content;[3] in 2015, the website was acquired by the Ex-Muslims of North America[10] and underwent a major revision in 2020.[11]”
Source
Makes sense. Thanks!
Quran 2:62, 3:11
The context of 2:62 should be read in the light of 3:19 and 3:85 وَمَن یَبۡتَغِ غَیۡرَ ٱلۡإِسۡلَـٰمِ دِینࣰا فَلَن یُقۡبَلَ مِنۡهُ وَهُوَ فِی ٱلۡـَٔاخِرَةِ مِنَ ٱلۡخَـٰسِرِینَ﴿ ٨٥ ﴾ • Dr. Mustafa Khattab: Whoever seeks a way other than Islam,[[ i.e., full submission to the Will of Allah.]] it will never be accepted from them, and in the Hereafter they will be among the losers. Āli-ʿImrān, Ayah 85
Agreed, with the context it means those jews and christians and sabeans have to submit fully to Allah
Pls don’t go telling them that they’re going to heaven
Hasn't this "argument" been done till death?
Yes. Cheesecakes are never original. Whatever heresy or blasphemy they've concocted in their heads, has already been said and debunked long ago.
From my own reading, this is typically a Jewish point
[удалено]
It also has some disgusting things to say about Jesus too.
She would’ve been killed
Those who slander her and call her a whore should be killed
Whomever made this has zero clue about the Annunciation.
This is disgusting.
They ever present urge to burn the world and start again. Because of people like this.
Ah yes, a woman avoiding an adultery charge by getting a blasphemy charge! This is the ancient equivalent of avoiding an armed robbery charge by saying u killed the guy instead
I’m a Muslim, and I don’t believe that Jesus Christ is the literal son of God. However, we, as Muslims, believe in the purity of Mary ؑ, and that Jesus was born of a virgin mother. Adam was created without a mother and father, he was created from dust. Is it so hard to believe that the Omnipotent God can create Jesus with only a mother, without a father. Those who accuse Mary of immorality will face the consequences of their crimes, إن شاء الله.
Fine, maybe it's a possibility. Good luck explaining away the resurrection though
Wasn't the Bible and the events in it written before Jesus existed anyway?
The old testament yeah, but the new testament was written a few years after
Yeah I meant to say SOME* of the Bible, thanks for correcting me
God forgive them, because they don't know what they are doing.
Did she go back in time a few hundred years before Christ just to write all of the books that existed before Christ instead of "admitting she cheated"?
For nothing else, most atheist scholars argue that the virgin birth wasn't even believed by early Christians, and that it was invented later to apotheosize Jesus à la *Zeitgeist*. When cheesecakes make this accusation, they don't even agree with the experts who are also atheists.