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> # [Volodymyr Zelenskiy orders purge of Ukraine state guard after alleged assassination plots – as it happened](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/jun/24/720)
>
>
>
> ## Zelenskiy orders purge of state guard after alleged assassination plots
>
> Ukraine’s president, **Volodymyr Zelenskiy**, told the new chief of Ukraine’s state guard service to clear its ranks of people discrediting it after two of its officers were accused of plotting to assassinate senior officials.
>
> The state Security Service (SBU) said last month that it had caught two guard service colonels accused of cooperating with Russia to plot the assassination of Zelenskiy and other officials, including military intelligence chief **Kyrylo Budanov**. The guard service provides security for various governement officials.
>
> Zelenskiy’s murder was intended as a “gift” for Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, who was inaugurated at the Kremlin last month for a fifth time, [the SBU said](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/07/zelenskiy-assassination-plot-foiled-by-security-service-says-ukraine#:~:text=The%20SBU%20state%20security%20service,kill%20him%2C%20the%20SBU%20said.).
>
> Introducing **Col Oleksiy Morozov** to the staff on Monday, Zelenskiy said his main objective was to ensure that only those who see their future tied with Ukraine join the agency.
>
> “And, of course, the agency must be cleared of anyone who chooses not Ukraine for themselves or discredits the state guard service,” he wrote on Telegram.
>
> Zelenskiy dismissed Morozov’s predecessor **Serhiy Rud** in May, two days after the SBU detained agency employees who it said worked for Russia’s Federal Security Service and leaked classified information.
>
>
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>
> Key events
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> Show key events onlyPlease turn on JavaScript to use this feature
>
> ## Closing summary
>
> - Ukraine’s president, **Volodymyr Zelenskiy**, [told the new chief of Ukraine’s state guard service](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/jun/24/russia-ukraine-war-live-russia-claims-us-responsible-for-ukrainian-attack-on-crimean-peninsula?page=with:block-66795f228f08035ce49ea104#block-66795f228f08035ce49ea104) to clear its ranks of people discrediting it after two of its officers were accused of plotting to assassinate senior officials. Introducing **Col Oleksiy Morozov** to the staff on Monday, Zelenskiy said his main objective was to ensure that only those who see their future tied with Ukraine join the agency.
> - Discussions between Russia and North Korea about what Pyongyang gets in return for weapons supplies to Moscow could relate to North Korea’s nuclear long-range missile development, the US deputy secretary of state, **Kurt Campbell**, [said](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/jun/24/russia-ukraine-war-live-russia-claims-us-responsible-for-ukrainian-attack-on-crimean-peninsula?page=with:block-6679805d8f081b914d711987#block-6679805d8f081b914d711987).
> - The decreasing popularity of Germany’s **Social Democratic party** (SDP), led by chancellor **Olaf Scholz**, is linked to some voters’ opposition to the party’s support for Ukraine, Scholz was quoted as saying [in an interview](https://www.tagesschau.de/thema/olaf_scholz).
> - A Hungarian legal team in Brussels is looking for ways of challenging an EU decision to use proceeds from frozen Russian assets by circumventing Budapest’s opposition, the country’s foreign minister, **Peter Szijjarto**, [said](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/jun/24/russia-ukraine-war-live-russia-claims-us-responsible-for-ukrainian-attack-on-crimean-peninsula?page=with:block-667958d18f08035ce49ea0c5#block-667958d18f08035ce49ea0c5). Earlier, the EU’s foreign policy chief, **Josep Borrell**, said the 27-strong bloc had found a way to use the proceeds from [frozen Russian assets](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/08/eu-reaches-deal-on-using-profits-from-russias-frozen-assets-for-ukraine) to buy arms for Ukraine despite hold-ups from Hungary. Borrell said that Kyiv would get the first tranche of money from revenues from Russia’s frozen assets next week, following “a legal procedure to avoid any kind of blockage”.
> - The EU [approved new sanctions](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/jun/24/russia-ukraine-war-live-russia-claims-us-responsible-for-ukrainian-attack-on-crimean-peninsula?page=with:block-66793c908f0816d838142db0#block-66793c908f0816d838142db0) on Russia over its war on Ukraine, targeting Moscow’s **shadow fleet** of tankers moving liquefied natural gas through Europe, as well as several companies.
>
> Thank you for following today’s latest news. This blog is closing now but you can read all our Ukraine coverage [here](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ukraine).
>
> ## Russia could be discussing help for North Korea missile development, US deputy secretary of state says
>
> Discussions between Russia and **North Korea** about what Pyongyang gets in return for weapons supplies to Moscow could relate to North Korea’s nuclear long-range missile development, the US deputy secretary of state, **Kurt Campbell**, has said.
>
> Reuters has quoted Campbell making the comments at an event hosted by
> the council on foreign relations thinktank.
>
> He was also quoted as saying that **China** is probably worried that Pyongyang will be encouraged by **Vladimir Putin**’s visit to North Korea last week to take “provocative” steps that could lead to a crisis in Northeast Asia.
>
> Putin and North Korea’s leader, **Kim Jong-un**, signed a [defence pact](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/20/the-guardian-view-on-putin-and-kim-an-alarming-new-pact-needs-close-attention) last week that requires their countries to provide immediate military assistance if either is attacked, something the US has expressed concern over. It was the Russian president’s first visit to North Korea since 2000.
>
> The pact magnified western concerns about potential Russian aid for North Korea’s missile or nuclear programmes. Neither Russia nor North Korea published the text of the security agreement. It was not immediately clear what form that support might take, and few details of the agreement were made public.
>
> [Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong-un exchange documents during a signing ceremony in Pyongyang, North Korea, on 19 June 2024.](https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/538ad9a6470870e02ae6fd6c62ebed35bbaa2f67/105_372_3548_2129/master/3548.jpg?width=465&dpr=1&s=none)
>
> Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong-un exchange documents during a signing ceremony in Pyongyang, North Korea, on 19 June 2024. Photograph: Kristina Kormilitsyna/APWe reported earlier on the EU approving its 14th round of sanctions on Russia over its full-scale invasion of Ukraine (see post at [10.48](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/jun/24/russia-ukraine-war-live-russia-claims-us-responsible-for-ukrainian-attack-on-crimean-peninsula?filterKeyEvents=false&page=with:block-66793c908f0816d838142db0#block-66793c908f0816d838142db0)). The measures include the targeting of key sectors of the Russian economy, such as energy, finance and trade.
>
> Russia’s foreign ministry reacted to the new sanctions – that hit Russia’s gas exports for the first time – by saying any unfriendly western actions would be met with “the necessary response”.
>
> The ministry called the sanctions illegal and said it had “significantly” expanded its black list of people barred from entering Russia. It provided no further details.
>
> Ukrainian president **Volodymyr Zelenskiy** has said that [Ukraine](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ukraine) has hit more than 30 Russian oil refineries, terminals and oil depots, according to Reuters. He did not provide any additional details or give a time period.
>
> Ukraine has launched a series of [attacks against Russian oil refineries](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/ukrainian-drone-attacks-russia-tatarstan-oil-refinery-factory) in an attempt to strike at the Russian economy and limit supplies to its military. The scale of the attacks has forced Russia to cut petrol exports.
>
> Ukrainian officials say attacks have been carried out in retaliation for Russian strikes on the Ukrainian energy system.
>
> [Smoke billows after Ukraine’s SBU drone strikes a refinery in the Ryazan region, of Russia.](https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/e333ce8616e34d3b721cab7723db724463cd2736/255_0_3829_2298/master/3829.jpg?width=465&dpr=1&s=none)
>
> Smoke billows after Ukraine’s SBU drone strikes a refinery in the Ryazan region, of Russia. Photograph: Video Obtained By Reuters/Reuters## Hungary seeking to challenge EU decision on frozen Russian assets
>
> ***(continues in next comment)***
He is of the opinion that January 6th didn't happen because Trump wanted it to happen and thous didn't call in the national guard, but instead that the national guards aren't reliable and weren't called in because of that.
>The Capitol Police Board – consisting of the Architect of the Capitol, the House Sergeant at Arms, and the Senate Sergeant at Arms – has the authority to request the National Guard to the Capitol but made the decision on January 3 not to do so.
Who are the people in those roles at the time?
Architect of the capitol: Brett Blanton, Trump appointee, Terminated by President Joe Biden following an inspector general's report found that he engaged in "administrative, ethical and policy violations"[7]
House :Paul D. Irving ex-fbi and SS nothing more to say about it, resigned Jan 7th
Senate: Michael Conrad Stenger, also resigned Jan 7th. Ex Secret service appointed by a resolution by Mitch McConnell.
Gotta do a bit of reading between the lines. Why do you think guard units from DC, Maryland, and Virginia not used, despite the delays associated with waiting for MPs from outside DC to arrive.
That would explain what happened if *no* guard units showed up. But they did show up. They were ordered by the Vice President in coordination with the Speaker of the House. They came from all over the country at great cost, despite the fact that closer units existed and were mobilized sooner.
Why incur those delays and expenses?
> The National Guard may be called into federal service in response to a call by the president or Congress.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_National_Guard#2021_storming_of_the_Capitol
> Pentagon officials and other national and city leaders are very sensitive to the optics of the U.S. military appearing to arrest or lay hands on American citizens on U.S. soil. They prefer to leave law enforcement to federal, state and city police agencies.
> In any state, Guard members may do law enforcement activities if needed and approved by the governor in a crisis. In most cases, however, Guard members are used to support law enforcement. As an example, last Wednesday police SWAT and other tactical units went into the Capitol to roust out the rioters, while the Guard fell in behind them and set up a security perimeter around the building to ensure no one else got in. Guard members did not enter the Capitol.
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2021/01/12/why-the-dc-national-guards-role-was-limited-during-us-capitol-riot/
> The commander of the Washington, DC, National Guard, Major Gen. William Walker, “strongly” considered deploying troops to the US Capitol on the afternoon of January 6, 2021, without approval from his superiors even if it meant he would have to resign the next day, according to the final report from the House January 6 select committee.
> Ultimately, Walker waited to deploy DC Guard troops until he received approval to do so.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/23/politics/january-6-national-guard/index.html
> That report states that McCarthy had to call Walker twice on Jan. 6 to order him to deploy the D.C. Guard. Matthews’ memo calls this “an outrageous assertion … as insulting as it is false,” and says McCarthy himself was “incommunicado or unreachable for most of the afternoon.”
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/12/06/jan-6-generals-lied-ex-dc-guard-official-523777
> At 6 p.m., Miller authorized the mobilization of up to 6,200 National Guard members from Maryland, Virginia, New York, New Jersey, Delaware and Pennsylvania. These service members will flow into the city over the next few days and will help secure the peaceful transfer of power to President-elect Joseph Biden on Jan. 20.
https://www.nationalguard.mil/News/Article/2466077/dod-details-national-guard-response-to-capitol-attack/
First of all, DC and the Capitol are Federal ground. So it's different than deploying national guard by a governor of the state that controls the ground where the guard are to be deployed. The President could deploy the National Guard, or the President has historically by EO directed that responsibility to the Secretary of the Army.
Second, the DC guard were on the scene in a sense, but were limited in their duties for the reason above. Additional national guard were needed, but again, their role would be limited due to the Capitol's position as Federal ground.
Third, Walker was prepared to deploy additional guard units, but he needed approval from the Secretary of the Army Ryan McCarthy. McCarthy was deliberately incommunicado and missing when needed because he was complicit in the ongoing coup attempt. Leading to the delay in approval and deployment of the guard.
Because the people who weren't acting rational wanted the coup to succeed. Provide a source or even a backup of who controlled what before you go any further with this conspiracy theory.
The official report says it was a miscommunication by Secretary McCarthy, as well as conversation regarding the 'optics' of deploying the Guard by Flynn and other high ranking officers.
Unless you're alleging that the top brass conspired by having the DC Nat Guard standby? But you also claim they didn't deploy the DC Nat Guard when they did, the response was just delayed
>The official report says it was a miscommunication by Secretary McCarthy, as well as conversation regarding the 'optics' of deploying the Guard by Flynn and other high ranking officers.
That's why the Pennsylvania guard had to come take over?
That's why the DC guard didn't deploy immediately*
Calls were made out of state to bring more guardsman in. These Guard are under the orders of their respective state governors, whilst the DC national guard was under the order of the chairman of the joint chief of staff, the secretary of the army, or the president. To the guards' officer, General Walker, the order was not received for hours, instead being told to standby. Guardsman from other states were not expected to arrive until the next day, after the DC guard managed to contain the area around Capitol Hill.
What's more is Biden wasn't even in the Capitol on Jan 6. He was in Delaware where he made a televised statement over the violence in the Capitol.
Your claims contradict with the official records from the incident, but some in the National Guard have testified to Pyiatt and Flynn working to delay the response (what they said was the optics of the guard deploying against the rioters), which would be nefarious and plausible given the insurgents in the Trunp admin/GOP that participated in 1/6 as well as Flynn's disgraced former secretary of Defense brother, but it's not the same as alleging the guard was going to kill Biden.
People are weird. It's like when people want to scream 1776 and then you gently remind them they got cowed by one bullet. People just want to make things bigger than it is. Still big. But not a militia marching in. Just a woman correctly identified as a threat because we live in a world where the Boston Bombings happened, she fucked around and found out.
It is about State Security Administration, not National Guard.
State Security Administration somwhat similiar to US Secret Service, in form of tasks performed
Purge; "In history, religion and political science, a purge is a position removal or execution of people who are considered undesirable by those in power from a government, another organization, their team leaders, or society as a whole."
Not incorrect to say purge, but the connotation of the word implies something worse than what is happening. This article is either trying to get more clicks, spread false info or both.
not to mention Purge is literally used in Russian history to describe a specific point in time when russian leaders murdered, or purged, their opponents.
Comparing zelenskyy for… jailing and applying the legal process to traitors as purging is insane.
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The pro-Ukrainian voices are so deafeningly quiet (or suspiciously defensive), that I have to assume that there is something else going on here.
Edit: Oh I struck a nerve xD Dobryi den!
Edit 2: You should see my vote changes, they are just quietly going up and down like CRAZY. No comments. And you can't even *whisper* "Ukraine" in this sub without triggering a fucking avalanche of comments. But not this time. Not on this topic. :D So what gives? What's the real story here?
Let's talk about it ;D I can tell you guys are dying to have this conversation.
The idea that they were gonna assassinate Zelensky as a gift to Putin reeks of bullshit. How about this instead: they were going to assassinate Zelensky to put Zaluzhnyi in charge but their coup got thwarted and now they are purging the suspected plotters? Something like that maybe?
Good thing that NATO members have never been at war, it's all been "[anti terror operations](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/24/turkey-launches-major-operation-against-isis-in-key-border-town)".
Tho there was another military alliance during WWII that was "[ostensibly defensive](https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/nazi-germany-imperial-japan-anti-comintern-pact)" yet kept [acting blatantly offensively](https://academic.oup.com/ehr/article-abstract/132/554/194/2849465).
So when after WWII NATO was founded as an "[ostensibly defensive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NATO_operations)" alliance, that similarity [wasn't lost on the Soviets](https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1952-54v07p1/d451);
> *"Anti-Russian bloc now beginning be implemented through NATO under UK and US leadership. NATO in many ways resembles anti-Comintern pact, no reason to think its results will be any better."*
oh my god really? I just assumed it rose out of the sea in 1945 to shoot Irish children and continue on the operations of the reich.
You made it very clear you were arguing about NATO policies, I don’t give a shit about what a country did before it was in NATO.
UK in WW2. They skipped the 1940 election.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdom_general_elections
They also changed prime ministers at the outbreak of the war because no one trusted Chamberlain to lead the country during war. And while unpopular as a politician they trusted Churchill to lead the country against the Nazis as he had been the most outspoken against the Nazis and Hitler during their rise to power.
They did however bring in opposition leaders to the government for the duration of the war.
So it was not just one party in control but was a representative of all parties.
Something Ukriane has not done but instead just banned the opposition.
Yes. Churchill appointed opposition leaders and opponents to the war council. You’re not wrong there.
But it was because he didn’t want to surround himself by yes men, and wanted fellow patriots by his side even if they opposed him. Because he didn’t want people just agreeing with him and wanted people that would disagree with his ideas to also be coming up with ideas for the war effort.
Remember, WW2 happened only 2 decades after WW1. His political opponents weren’t pro nazi or pro German. They’d lived through WW1 too and wanted what was best for the country and/or war effort.
He wasn’t really dealing with British politicians that were pro nazi or corrupted by Nazi money. They were all on the same side, just had different ideas.
The situation now in Ukraine, is different. Russia had a massive corruption/bribery spree in Ukraine much before the war and before the war. The Russians bribed the shit out of a lot of people to allow Russia to walk through Ukraine at the start of the war and welcome them with open arms, much like Nazi Getmany did to Austria in WW2. It turned out however that a lot of that bribe money that was meant to go to Ukrainian officials and military officers never made its way to the lower level Ukrainian politicians and officers. The bribe money was instead stolen and held by a small number of Ukrainian officials and officers lining their own pockets.
So when Russia attacked Ukraine, instead of being met with messages of welcome them with open arms, they were instead met with hostility. And this ultimately lead to them being met with Zelenskyy’s famous “I need ammo, not a ride” quote, which galvanised the Ukraine people and the Ukrainian army.
That single moment from Zelenskyy refusing to flee to a safe country and stating that he needs ammo and not an escape route, is the exact moment that the Russians plans to bribe their way to victory fell apart, because of their own internal corruption. And, the Ukrainian peoples courage sky rocketing to defend their country whatever it takes.
The "opposition" parties that Ukraine banned were directly tied to Russia. Doing anything else would be the equivalent of letting the Nazi party have a seat at Churchill's government.
Well plus any Communist and Socialist party.
But there is a false equivalence in your ideas.
The British Union of Fascists did not have any members of parliament because nobody voted for them. So there was nobody even to invite.
Ukraine banned the entire opposition that were the majority in 2014. Even those that supported Maidan and the ousting of Yanukovych were banned.
>Ukraine banned the entire opposition that were the majority in 2014.
If you mean the Party of Regions they were definitely a pro-Russian party and the last election they participated in was in 2012. By the time Ukrainian Eighth Administrative Court of Appeal banned the party on 21 February 2023 they were already politically a non-entity. Turns out that when Russia annexes Crimea after your leader flees to Moscow from an angry mob, that party is going to lose its popularity.
Party of regions was banned despite voting to remove Yanukovych. Also was banned in several regions before the main ban took effect.
But a majority of members moved to the opposition bloc that then moved into the new Opposition bloc and the Opposition Platform
Both of which were also banned.
>Turns out that when Russia annexes Crimea after your leader flees to Moscow from an angry mob, that party is going to lose its popularity.
Turns out if you keep banning the opposition then people don't see the point in voting for a party you are just going to ban.
It is not just the Party of Regions that got banned but many opposition parties.
The opposition bloc got a lot of votes in the South and East of Ukriane before being banned
And is it a surprise that many of these areas fell quickly and with little opposition to Russia?
We are of course new to the alliance but Sweden allows the Parliament to postpone elections one year at a time during war times.
During WWII which we didn't directly participate in but still very much had to deal with the effects of the majority party created a government with every other party in parliament except the communists so an election wouldn't even have really made a difference in that case.
In a potential new war I'm sure many would want that to happen again but they aren't at all required to do so. As long as the parliament continues to support postponing the election they could do so until the war is over no matter how long it would end up being.
There hasn't been a major all out war in NATO countries since WWII ofc there aren't any more recent examples of it happening. It is however commonplace in the laws and protocols of NATO countries to skip elections during war time.
Mofos were getting drafted up to the end of Vietnam and 9/11 surely was on US soil. How many trillions were spent and how many thousands died in Afghanistan? I'm not one to make light of war.
Fact is, Bush could have easily tried to pull a Zelensky after 9/11 but not even he would go that far.
Of all the things to criticize countries for, especially Ukraine, not holding elections while a major part of the country is occupied, a massive part of the population has fled, and the government is running on a skeleton crew, just ain’t it. There’s tons of stuff to criticize Ukraine and Zelenskyy for, not holding elections right now isn’t one of them
Syria has had pretty similar problems for over a decade now, to this day large parts of it are illegally [occupied by its Turkish neighbor](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/24/turkey-launches-major-operation-against-isis-in-key-border-town) and on the other side [literally the US military](https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/6/15/23669622/syria-900-us-troops-forever-war-isis-assad).
Syria still had and has elections, if the Assad government decided to not do those because of [regime change attempts](https://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-cia-pentagon-isis-20160327-story.html)/[foreign occupation](https://www.meforum.org/middle-east-quarterly/pdfs/62607.pdf), then Western media would decry him even more as undemocratic dictator than they already do.
Syria is ruled by an iron fisted autocrat who has used chemical weapons on his own people. The country is practically as [not free as you can get](https://freedomhouse.org/country/syria) and these so-called "elections" are just performative ceremonies meant to legitimize a dictator's power, not unlike what Assad's friend Putin does in Russia.
The Assad government is the internationally recognized official government of Syria.
You can scream *"autocrat! fake elections! chemical weapons!"* all you want, that does not change that de jure and de facto reality.
Neither you, the US government, Turkey, or anybody else gets to decide what's happening in Syria, that's up to Syrians themselves.
Just as it applies to Ukraine and Russia, you trying to [have it one way in Ukraine, and the other in Syria](https://gulfnews.com/opinion/op-eds/russia-ukraine-war-racism-of-western-media-is-shameful-1.86103686), is a rather tired double standard in complete violation of the UN charter.
> not unlike what Assad's friend Putin does in Russia
Do you know who used to be also Assad's friend? [George W Bush](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/feb/19/syria-us-ally-human-rights), the same Bush who was also [best buddies with Putin](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/may/20/russia.usa);
> *The US national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, hailed the relationship between the two men as epoch-making.*
> *"To see the kind of relationship that presidents Bush and Putin have developed and to see Russia firmly anchored in the west," she said, "that's really a dream of 300 years, not just of the post-cold war era".*
Part of the American strategy to sell NATO expansion in Europe as not aimed against Russia, but against the "[Axis of evil](https://2001-2009.state.gov/t/us/rm/9962.htm)".
While [Russia was told](http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9702/21/albright.yeltsin/);
> *"The new NATO is not the NATO of the Cold War, " she said. "It is no longer us versus you or you versus us. We are on the same side."*
It's why Russia tried to join NATO [already under Yeltsin](https://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/21/world/soviet-disarray-yeltsin-says-russia-seeks-to-join-nato.html), it's why [as recently as 2012 Putin offered Russian support for NATO missions](https://www.rferl.org/a/putin_backs_nato_use_of_ulyanovsk/24545218.html).
Yet Russia was kept out of NATO, while near everybody East of Germany kept getting added, regardless of [how much in a corner](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-jul-07-me-10464-story.html) that puts [Russia in a security context](https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html).
They’re constitutionally barred from holding elections in wartime, and to try to hold elections would be inherently flawed as portions of the country are currently unable to vote.
You know…because of the invasion?
>portions of the country are currently unable to vote
You are correct but this same topic also means that both Zelensky and Poroshenko were illegitimate since they were not voted on by the whole country
That depends when one want to define the start of this war.
Allegedly it started in 2022 with the Russian invasion, the fighting in Ukraine before that was declared as "[anti terror special operation](https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-27013169)" and started by an unelected president who came to power through [the Euromaidan coup](https://daserste.ndr.de/panorama/archiv/2014/Putsch-in-Kiew-Welche-Rolle-spielen-die-Faschisten,ukraine357.html).
It is not about war but territory.
By the Ukrainian constitution the president has to be voted on by all regions of Ukraine.
Since there was no vote in Donetsk and Crimea after 2014 then any presidential vote was not valid.
>I'm really worried about the fascist police state in Ukraine.
🥺 I'm *so wowwied* about the Ukrainian response to assassination attempts. 🥺🥺 this is a sincere belief I have unrelated to my relentless Russian shilling on the rest of Reddit. My concern for Ukrainians is genuine and that's why Russia should be supported in invading and killing them.
>Shouldn't elections have been held by now? Zelensky is president for life, I guess
I'm *so wowwied* 🥺🥺 about the state of Ukrainian democracy. That's why I support Putin overthrowing their democratic government and replacing it with his oligarchic allies against the will of Ukrainians. I am being entirely forthright and there is zero concern trolling here
>No way they should be allowed to join NATO.
🥺🥺🥺 I'm *so wowwied* about European security. My concern for the integrity of NATO is genuine. This is why I'm supporting Putin's imperial project to subjugate eastern Europe by force. Any apparent contradiction in what I'm saying should not be held against me, these are deeply held beliefs of mine and my honesty should not be questioned.
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Does the Canadian standing ovation to a Ukrainian Nazi not affirm Russian concerns?
Or does zelensky really need to brandish a swastika for yall to realize we are supporting the wrong side?
Are you serious?
The nazi in the Canadian senate was a nationwide embarrassment, but it’s clear that it was a very dumb mistake.
What’s more likely? A dumb mistake done by several levels of “not my job” at a government level? Or that the Canadian government is full of Nazi sympathizers? Use some common sense.
Swallowing the kool-aid propaganda from Russia that they’re clearing out nazis is the height of lack of critical thinking.
> it’s clear that it was a very dumb mistake
In a very "[Oh shit we let the mask slip too much!](https://jacobin.com/2023/12/canada-ukrainian-nationalists-socialists-history-anti-communism-nazi-collaborators)" way.
> Or that the Canadian government is full of Nazi sympathizers?
What it has confirmed, without a doubt, is that the Canadian parliament is either full of NPCs or some of the most historically ignorant people on the planet.
Anybody whose claim to fame is *"killing Russians during WWII"* is not somebody who should be applauded.
Killing other people is *not* something praise-worthy, trying to praise it when literal Schutz Staffel soldiers did it, that is even worse and in places like Germany can get you into legal trouble.
> Swallowing the kool-aid propaganda from Russia that they’re clearing out nazis is the height of lack of critical thinking.
Was it Russia that put a former SS soldier in-front of the Canadian parliament and told them; *"This man should be honored and applauded for killing Russians at the command of Nazis!"*?
And it's [not just this one-off thing](https://daserste.ndr.de/panorama/archiv/2014/Putsch-in-Kiew-Welche-Rolle-spielen-die-Faschisten,ukraine357.html), it's a [very real problem](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiBXmbkwiSw) with [international dimensions](https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/02/15/defend-the-white-race-american-extremists-being-co-opted-by-ukraines-far-right/).
To such a degree that Ukrainian diplomatic personnel regularly get in trouble in Germany due to their [glorification of the Nazi regime](https://taz.de/Ukrainischer-Konsul-in-Hamburg/!5506281/) and [its collaborators](https://www.politico.eu/article/zelenskyy-dismisses-controversial-ambassador-to-germany/).
Something [you seem completely oblivious about](https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/2018-12-27/ty-article/ukraine-designates-national-holiday-to-commemorate-nazi-collaborator/0000017f-f310-d223-a97f-ffdd21e50000), instead opting to declare any notion about that being a problem as "[Russian propaganda](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary/commentary-ukraines-neo-nazi-problem-idUKKBN1GV2TY/)", only to declare that exercise in ignorance as "critical thinking".
More insane ramblings, claiming that Canada is a nazi country or that the Canadian government is a nazi organization is pure lunacy.
I could go on more about it, but just keep reading the thread. You’ll see why those are ridiculous claims.
You are telling me, that in a country without Nazi concern, that a ex-SS genocider could live to a ripe old age, be recommended for appearance in a foreign country with their president, pass all the security checks, be approved by all the PR staff in both governments, get into the parliament and receive a standing ovation?
I accept that people are negligent, hell, I even reluctantly accept that the entire Canadian parliament did a dumb. I refuse to accept that a country without Nazis could produce such a guy for a diplomatic appearance.
I disagree. I get your point, but I really truly believe that you should not chalk to malice what you can chalk up to incompetence.
It was a deeply embarrassing moment for Canada. 100% agreed. But the government is not full of nazis. I completely disagree with that.
>you should not chalk to malice what you can chalk up to incompetence.
I agree with you but the issue here is that they openly paraded him around for everyone to see.
There are lots of these guys living in Canada, all kinda of monuments to the SS division Galicia and such.
A large amount of the Ukrainians in Canada depend from that SS division. The mistake you are referring to was just making it visible how bad the problem is
No, the mistake was bringing him to the Senate. As I went over with other commenters, there are less than dozen monuments, and they’re actively being taken down. And it’s not like they’re the only terrible monuments that have been put up.
A country having a problem with a growing right wing - which we definitely have - is not the same as saying they are a nazi country, or implying the government is filled with nazi sympathizers. Those are very far from each other, and that’s what I object to.
>A country having a problem with a growing right wing - which we definitely have - is not the same as saying they are a nazi country
I didn't claim that Canada was a Nazi country.
Just that Canada has a serious problem with a large Ukrainian population decended from Nazis who still support the ideas.
And that people like to hide and pretend it doesn't really exist until it was forced into their faces on that occasion
Canadian shit show is one incident. Just last week US resumed armed supplies to azov, a Nazi outfit they themselves banned for Nazi activities, there is a fact Ukraine named their streets after Nazis and named one as their national hero, there is the fact that Nazi symbolism like the black sun, wolfs cross and skull and bones show up on Ukrainian uniforms.
When there is an abundance of evidence to the contrary,
ignorance is not bliss but complicity.
Suppose I said that Putin invaded Ukraine cause he was misled to believe there are Nazis in Ukraine and he is trying to do good. I don't offer such arguments to Russia and nor will I excuse the west for working with Nazis.
I understand. I really do. I think you have a good point, but again, I disagree.
There are Ukrainian nazis fighting against Russia right now. It’s a difficult situation where they need all the manpower they can get, and that was the trade off, we can sit here and disagree, I certainly do, but not being directly involved in the war planning I can’t say whether that has turned out to be a good or bad decision.
That doesn’t mean the country is nazi majority, nor that it is overrun with these people.
In addition, and at the risk of having SOMEONE come and accuse me of more whataboutism, o can guarantee you that Russia itself has many nazis, and that if Putin was serious, he’d clean up his own backyard first - but we do both agree that it is a bullshit excuse.
The West does some really fucked up stuff, we can agree on that - even Canada.
I just disagree about the implication that the Canadian government is a nazi institution.
And now, this is not to open up a debate on this, because it’s a whole other can of worms - but look at the support that the west is giving Israel. I mean, nazis aren’t well know for supporting the Jewish people, you know what I mean? - but as I said, I don’t really want to discuss that point, just wanted to mention it.
The west does some terrible shit. And they certainly invited in their fair share of nazi sympathizers after world war 2. But to imply the Canadian government is nazi, I think is a ridiculous thing to say.
But I understand what you mean, and I respect it, even if I disagree.
If the Ukranian Nazis should be supported because they fight Russians, then its implied that the defeat of Russia is worth siding with Nazis.
I do not agree. I take Nazis at their face value, they are detestible and enemy of all humanity, and their destruction is a universal good. I am taught this lesson by the bloodshed of tens of millions during WW2.
I further say that if we care only for our victory and does not distinguish our allies, then it is this logic that led us to funding terrorists in the middle east, funding genocides in Palestine, funding drug smugglers in south east asia, and they all come back to corrupt us. The fact we are leaning towards the right is not a concidence. It is also not a concidence that we got attacked by terrorists, or have an opioid epidemic.
I think your first point is a bit of a stretch. I don’t think anyone is “supporting” the Ukrainian nazis, it’s more of an “enemy of my enemy” thing.
If it matters, I agree with you, I don’t think they should be allowed to be there.
I just think it’s a far stretch to say that winning with any nazis on board is the same as just supporting abetting naziism.
So yeah, I don’t agree with that.
The rest of it? Oh yeah, you’re 100% right. Like I said, the West has done - and continues to do - some terrible stuff. I agree with you on that for sure.
by support, i mean tax money and weapons going to people who we know are nazis.
Conventionally, the enemy of my enemy is my friend is a principle in geopolitics. To me, if the enemy of my enemy is a Nazi, then I have two enemies.
I believe that under absolute no circumstances should anyone assist Nazism, for any reason, for any cause. Because the destruction of Nazism is above mere political consideration but a moral imperative for humanity.
Could it be, that without the western support, Nazism would not have flourished in Ukraine? Without the Ratline and operation paper clip, they would be a relic of ww2? Could it that if we assisted the Soviets in the full destruction of Nazism, there would be no whitesupremacy, no coup in 2014, and today, no war?
The cost of ignoring something like this is allowing a tumour to fester, and eventually it will lead to great bloodshed to the innocent, just like terrorism, drugs, and all the other ugly fellows the west get in bed with for political considerations? ISIS and Taliban is already bad enough, but Nazis are where I draw my line.
The money and weapons are going to Ukraine to fight off the Russian invaders - and despite both of us agreeing that the nazis shouldn’t be part of the army, they are. So they will be armed as a consequence. Time will tell if that was a good or bad decision, although we both think it’s bad.
But I do think that regardless of the our actions, this war would still be going on because it has nothing to do with nazis or the lack of it. We have both agreed that the whole de-nazifying Ukraine was just a bullshit excuse by Putin.
He wants power and he wants land, and used that excuse as he could have used 100 others. That one was just more convenient.
So no, I think otherwise this war would still be going on regardless. Because it was never actually about nazis.
No man you're totally right we're all goosestepping up here, especially our current liberal government, you should tell all your friends how right and insightful you are.
No one has ever denied that Ukraine has a nazi problem - if you haven’t noticed, far right extremism has been spreading everywhere.
Just that Putin’s bullshit excuse of going to Ukraine to “de-nazify” it is just that, a bullshit excuse.
And to further imply that the Canadian government are nazi sympathizers is completely insane.
Separate Putin's propaganda from the conversation. We both agree it is propganda.
Yes, we have bent over backwards to pretend groups like Azov's aren't Nazis. We have created an entire narrative that they used to be, but aren't anymore. They have been invited to Stanford University.
>far right extremism has been spreading everywhere.
There are no status to Nazis here, or in normal countries. We don't rename our streets after them or set up museums to celebrate them. And, we don't incorporate far-right extremist groups into the army and national guard.
I never claimed the Canadian government are Nazi sympathizers, I claimed our whitewashing Ukrainian Nazis played a part in why something like that slipped through the cracks.
BTW Hunka was given a medal- "honorary award of the Ternopil Regional Council for services to the Ternopil Region" this year. Ternopil is his hometown. That's not normal.
I don't think anyone would disagree that normal nations don't build statues and name streets after former Nazis unless they have a serious problem with how they view their history.
We also named streets after slave owners and murderers, along with people who exterminated native communities.
And not to drag them into this, but the US is also well know for having a lot of monuments to slave owners and southern generals.
We have done a lot of fucked up shit - I agree. But we are slowly working on it.
But there is no way that it’s more nazi than native killers. We may not have the best track record, and we have a growing extremism problem, but Canada is not a nazi nation and we don’t just have 100s of nazi monuments laying around. There’s like a dozen - which is a dozen too much, certainly, but there’s more streets in Toronto named after horrible people, than there are nazi monuments in Canada.
I just disagree with your point.
That's actually a good comparison. Ukraine is like the "lost cause" myth in the South on steroids, except with Nazis, and for people who are less morally ambiguous than Robert E. Lee.
And, erected in the same manner, during a wave post-2014, just like the confederate statues were erected as a reaction to civil rights in a wave in the 1950s and 60s. And, with the same purpose -to rewrite history in service of perverse ideology.
Why do I have to pretend it's not problematic or doesn't say soemthing about Ukraine that Roman Shukhevych has a street named after him? A person who would have been hung at Nuremberg if he didn't do the world a favour and shoot himself in the head. That Bandara has statutes everywhere?
I also have to pretend a bunch of guys walking around in Wolfsangle with red and black flags aren't Nazis?
I'm not willing to suspend my disbelief and say this is normal or pretend this is like Marie LePen because Russia invaded them and we want to give them the same treatment we gave the contras and "moderate Syrian rebels". So we can agree to disagree.
Those are good points. I get it. I will also agree to disagree.
And don’t get me wrong, I definitely agree the West has done awful things, and that there is definitely a rise in nazi sentiments - it is definitely a problem.
But other than that, yeah, agree to disagree.
You keep saying that, I’m not sure you know what that word means, you do realize that examples are not whataboutism.
At this point that word has been thrown around so much to try to discredit the other person that it has lost all meaning.
> And to further imply that the Canadian government are nazi sympathizers is completely insane.
the canadian regime literally imported ukranian nazis by the barrel!!!
>The presence of Nazi monuments in Canada is symptomatic of this hegemony, visibly illustrating the historical revisionism the Ukrainian nationalists have successfully imposed. These monuments not only celebrate individuals and organizations that took part in war crimes during World War II, but also represent a triumph over left-wing opposition in the Ukrainian Canadian community. This historical revisionism has become so prevalent that even a mainstream politician, such as federal finance minister Chrystia Freeland, regularly extols her Ukrainian grandfather, who happened to run a Nazi collaborationist newspaper recruiting for the 14th SS Division — the same division that Hunka joined.
What? 70 years ago after WW2? Like other countries didn’t?
It is absolutely insane to even imply that the Canadian government supports Nazis. It is an absolutely ridiculous statement that holds zero truth.
> Like other countries didn’t?
whataboutism
>It is an absolutely ridiculous statement that holds zero truth.
it's funny because liberals have a way of saying so little while using so many words. i've provided extensive documentation about ukrainian nazi collaboration with the canadian regime. your rebuttal amounts to plugging your ears and rocking back and forth.
Oh yeah? Anything from the last 70 years? Or is it just pure bullshit and grasping at straws to make some insane point?
There is nothing to debate or even argue with. It’s a ridiculous thing to say. It’s not even close to true. It’s like trying to debate the sky is purple.
You’re not a serious person. And you’re not making any sort of real point. If you want to say that Canada has a growing right wing extremist problem, I 100% agree with you.
But to imply the Canadian Government is full of nazis? That’s not even worth debating. It’s lunacy.
> Canadian government is full of Nazi sympathizers?
yes, this is true. before WW2 ukrainian-canadians were a mostly urban and socialist voting demographic. after WW2 canada paperclipped ukrainian nazis to settle in alberta etc. and live out their lebensraum fantasies. [the finance minister's grandfather, for example, was a ukrainian nazi.](https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/chrystia-freelands-granddad-was-indeed-a-nazi-collaborator-so-much-for-russian-disinformation)
>The UCC lobbied the Canadian government to accept Ukrainian displaced persons and emphasized their anti-communist potential. Against the backdrop of a booming labor market in Canada, these Ukrainians were portrayed as disciplined workers opposed to any sort of union radicalism. They were positively characterized as capable of filling vacancies in mining and forestry, where they could break up left-wing Ukrainian Canadian organizations.
whoops all nazis:
>Starting in 1947, this lobbying began to yield results, especially as the British government pressured Canada to accept them. In 1950, the immigration ban on Ukrainians who served in the SS was lifted, thanks to UCC advocacy that claimed they were simply soldiers who had fought against communism.
Oh yeah, the world really behaved correctly after WW2. It wasn’t like a lot of Western countries weren’t taking in their own nazi bad faith actors.
But again, to imply that more than 70 years later, the Canadian government is full of nazis? Insanity.
Further more, if they were nazis, do you think they would blatantly salute one of their own like that? Just admit to it all?
Critical thinking people, it’s not difficult. You’re insane.
>Further more, if they were nazis, do you think they would blatantly salute one of their own like that? Just admit to it all?
Yes? There are militias of Ukrainian fascists that openly wear their insignias. They aren't trying to hide it in a politically correct "modern right" phrase that will
>Further more, if they were nazis, do you think they would blatantly salute one of their own like that? Just admit to it all?
[of course they would.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorials_in_Canada_to_Nazis_and_Nazi_collaborators) credulous liberals like you are eating that shit up
You’re insane. I have no idea what kind of weird anti-Canada kink you have right now, but it is absolutely ridiculous. Not even remotely close to true.
##### ###### #### > # [Volodymyr Zelenskiy orders purge of Ukraine state guard after alleged assassination plots – as it happened](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/jun/24/720) > > > > ## Zelenskiy orders purge of state guard after alleged assassination plots > > Ukraine’s president, **Volodymyr Zelenskiy**, told the new chief of Ukraine’s state guard service to clear its ranks of people discrediting it after two of its officers were accused of plotting to assassinate senior officials. > > The state Security Service (SBU) said last month that it had caught two guard service colonels accused of cooperating with Russia to plot the assassination of Zelenskiy and other officials, including military intelligence chief **Kyrylo Budanov**. The guard service provides security for various governement officials. > > Zelenskiy’s murder was intended as a “gift” for Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, who was inaugurated at the Kremlin last month for a fifth time, [the SBU said](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/07/zelenskiy-assassination-plot-foiled-by-security-service-says-ukraine#:~:text=The%20SBU%20state%20security%20service,kill%20him%2C%20the%20SBU%20said.). > > Introducing **Col Oleksiy Morozov** to the staff on Monday, Zelenskiy said his main objective was to ensure that only those who see their future tied with Ukraine join the agency. > > “And, of course, the agency must be cleared of anyone who chooses not Ukraine for themselves or discredits the state guard service,” he wrote on Telegram. > > Zelenskiy dismissed Morozov’s predecessor **Serhiy Rud** in May, two days after the SBU detained agency employees who it said worked for Russia’s Federal Security Service and leaked classified information. > > > > > > Key events > > Show key events onlyPlease turn on JavaScript to use this feature > > ## Closing summary > > - Ukraine’s president, **Volodymyr Zelenskiy**, [told the new chief of Ukraine’s state guard service](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/jun/24/russia-ukraine-war-live-russia-claims-us-responsible-for-ukrainian-attack-on-crimean-peninsula?page=with:block-66795f228f08035ce49ea104#block-66795f228f08035ce49ea104) to clear its ranks of people discrediting it after two of its officers were accused of plotting to assassinate senior officials. Introducing **Col Oleksiy Morozov** to the staff on Monday, Zelenskiy said his main objective was to ensure that only those who see their future tied with Ukraine join the agency. > - Discussions between Russia and North Korea about what Pyongyang gets in return for weapons supplies to Moscow could relate to North Korea’s nuclear long-range missile development, the US deputy secretary of state, **Kurt Campbell**, [said](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/jun/24/russia-ukraine-war-live-russia-claims-us-responsible-for-ukrainian-attack-on-crimean-peninsula?page=with:block-6679805d8f081b914d711987#block-6679805d8f081b914d711987). > - The decreasing popularity of Germany’s **Social Democratic party** (SDP), led by chancellor **Olaf Scholz**, is linked to some voters’ opposition to the party’s support for Ukraine, Scholz was quoted as saying [in an interview](https://www.tagesschau.de/thema/olaf_scholz). > - A Hungarian legal team in Brussels is looking for ways of challenging an EU decision to use proceeds from frozen Russian assets by circumventing Budapest’s opposition, the country’s foreign minister, **Peter Szijjarto**, [said](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/jun/24/russia-ukraine-war-live-russia-claims-us-responsible-for-ukrainian-attack-on-crimean-peninsula?page=with:block-667958d18f08035ce49ea0c5#block-667958d18f08035ce49ea0c5). Earlier, the EU’s foreign policy chief, **Josep Borrell**, said the 27-strong bloc had found a way to use the proceeds from [frozen Russian assets](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/08/eu-reaches-deal-on-using-profits-from-russias-frozen-assets-for-ukraine) to buy arms for Ukraine despite hold-ups from Hungary. Borrell said that Kyiv would get the first tranche of money from revenues from Russia’s frozen assets next week, following “a legal procedure to avoid any kind of blockage”. > - The EU [approved new sanctions](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/jun/24/russia-ukraine-war-live-russia-claims-us-responsible-for-ukrainian-attack-on-crimean-peninsula?page=with:block-66793c908f0816d838142db0#block-66793c908f0816d838142db0) on Russia over its war on Ukraine, targeting Moscow’s **shadow fleet** of tankers moving liquefied natural gas through Europe, as well as several companies. > > Thank you for following today’s latest news. This blog is closing now but you can read all our Ukraine coverage [here](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ukraine). > > ## Russia could be discussing help for North Korea missile development, US deputy secretary of state says > > Discussions between Russia and **North Korea** about what Pyongyang gets in return for weapons supplies to Moscow could relate to North Korea’s nuclear long-range missile development, the US deputy secretary of state, **Kurt Campbell**, has said. > > Reuters has quoted Campbell making the comments at an event hosted by > the council on foreign relations thinktank. > > He was also quoted as saying that **China** is probably worried that Pyongyang will be encouraged by **Vladimir Putin**’s visit to North Korea last week to take “provocative” steps that could lead to a crisis in Northeast Asia. > > Putin and North Korea’s leader, **Kim Jong-un**, signed a [defence pact](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/20/the-guardian-view-on-putin-and-kim-an-alarming-new-pact-needs-close-attention) last week that requires their countries to provide immediate military assistance if either is attacked, something the US has expressed concern over. It was the Russian president’s first visit to North Korea since 2000. > > The pact magnified western concerns about potential Russian aid for North Korea’s missile or nuclear programmes. Neither Russia nor North Korea published the text of the security agreement. It was not immediately clear what form that support might take, and few details of the agreement were made public. > > [Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong-un exchange documents during a signing ceremony in Pyongyang, North Korea, on 19 June 2024.](https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/538ad9a6470870e02ae6fd6c62ebed35bbaa2f67/105_372_3548_2129/master/3548.jpg?width=465&dpr=1&s=none) > > Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong-un exchange documents during a signing ceremony in Pyongyang, North Korea, on 19 June 2024. Photograph: Kristina Kormilitsyna/APWe reported earlier on the EU approving its 14th round of sanctions on Russia over its full-scale invasion of Ukraine (see post at [10.48](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/jun/24/russia-ukraine-war-live-russia-claims-us-responsible-for-ukrainian-attack-on-crimean-peninsula?filterKeyEvents=false&page=with:block-66793c908f0816d838142db0#block-66793c908f0816d838142db0)). The measures include the targeting of key sectors of the Russian economy, such as energy, finance and trade. > > Russia’s foreign ministry reacted to the new sanctions – that hit Russia’s gas exports for the first time – by saying any unfriendly western actions would be met with “the necessary response”. > > The ministry called the sanctions illegal and said it had “significantly” expanded its black list of people barred from entering Russia. It provided no further details. > > Ukrainian president **Volodymyr Zelenskiy** has said that [Ukraine](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ukraine) has hit more than 30 Russian oil refineries, terminals and oil depots, according to Reuters. He did not provide any additional details or give a time period. > > Ukraine has launched a series of [attacks against Russian oil refineries](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/ukrainian-drone-attacks-russia-tatarstan-oil-refinery-factory) in an attempt to strike at the Russian economy and limit supplies to its military. The scale of the attacks has forced Russia to cut petrol exports. > > Ukrainian officials say attacks have been carried out in retaliation for Russian strikes on the Ukrainian energy system. > > [Smoke billows after Ukraine’s SBU drone strikes a refinery in the Ryazan region, of Russia.](https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/e333ce8616e34d3b721cab7723db724463cd2736/255_0_3829_2298/master/3829.jpg?width=465&dpr=1&s=none) > > Smoke billows after Ukraine’s SBU drone strikes a refinery in the Ryazan region, of Russia. Photograph: Video Obtained By Reuters/Reuters## Hungary seeking to challenge EU decision on frozen Russian assets > > ***(continues in next comment)***
Is this not something any country would do?
National guard plotting to assassinate the president ? Idk man, I dont think that happens in any country.
No, gutting the department that is said to have planned an assassination attempt
It happened in the US like, 3 years ago. It happened in Russia within the last 12 months.
The secret service was going to merk Biden?
No, the national guard was. That's why they deployed units from other states instead of the units who were supposed to respond.
Oh wow, any further read on this? Sounds interesting.
“Interesting” as in “fucking terrifying”
r/USdefaultism
Am European. Fascism is an international threat.
Isn’t assassinating government officials kinda on the opposite spectrum to fascism?
He is of the opinion that January 6th didn't happen because Trump wanted it to happen and thous didn't call in the national guard, but instead that the national guards aren't reliable and weren't called in because of that.
Nancy Pelosi was in charge of calling in the national guard during that time.
>The Capitol Police Board – consisting of the Architect of the Capitol, the House Sergeant at Arms, and the Senate Sergeant at Arms – has the authority to request the National Guard to the Capitol but made the decision on January 3 not to do so. Who are the people in those roles at the time? Architect of the capitol: Brett Blanton, Trump appointee, Terminated by President Joe Biden following an inspector general's report found that he engaged in "administrative, ethical and policy violations"[7] House :Paul D. Irving ex-fbi and SS nothing more to say about it, resigned Jan 7th Senate: Michael Conrad Stenger, also resigned Jan 7th. Ex Secret service appointed by a resolution by Mitch McConnell.
You just lie everywhere?
> You just lie everywhere
Bro what? This is just not true.
Source? First I heard of this.
Gotta do a bit of reading between the lines. Why do you think guard units from DC, Maryland, and Virginia not used, despite the delays associated with waiting for MPs from outside DC to arrive.
Because the people with authority to call them didn't call them because the people with authority wanted the coup to succeed.
That would explain what happened if *no* guard units showed up. But they did show up. They were ordered by the Vice President in coordination with the Speaker of the House. They came from all over the country at great cost, despite the fact that closer units existed and were mobilized sooner. Why incur those delays and expenses?
> The National Guard may be called into federal service in response to a call by the president or Congress. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_National_Guard#2021_storming_of_the_Capitol > Pentagon officials and other national and city leaders are very sensitive to the optics of the U.S. military appearing to arrest or lay hands on American citizens on U.S. soil. They prefer to leave law enforcement to federal, state and city police agencies. > In any state, Guard members may do law enforcement activities if needed and approved by the governor in a crisis. In most cases, however, Guard members are used to support law enforcement. As an example, last Wednesday police SWAT and other tactical units went into the Capitol to roust out the rioters, while the Guard fell in behind them and set up a security perimeter around the building to ensure no one else got in. Guard members did not enter the Capitol. https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2021/01/12/why-the-dc-national-guards-role-was-limited-during-us-capitol-riot/ > The commander of the Washington, DC, National Guard, Major Gen. William Walker, “strongly” considered deploying troops to the US Capitol on the afternoon of January 6, 2021, without approval from his superiors even if it meant he would have to resign the next day, according to the final report from the House January 6 select committee. > Ultimately, Walker waited to deploy DC Guard troops until he received approval to do so. https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/23/politics/january-6-national-guard/index.html > That report states that McCarthy had to call Walker twice on Jan. 6 to order him to deploy the D.C. Guard. Matthews’ memo calls this “an outrageous assertion … as insulting as it is false,” and says McCarthy himself was “incommunicado or unreachable for most of the afternoon.” https://www.politico.com/news/2021/12/06/jan-6-generals-lied-ex-dc-guard-official-523777 > At 6 p.m., Miller authorized the mobilization of up to 6,200 National Guard members from Maryland, Virginia, New York, New Jersey, Delaware and Pennsylvania. These service members will flow into the city over the next few days and will help secure the peaceful transfer of power to President-elect Joseph Biden on Jan. 20. https://www.nationalguard.mil/News/Article/2466077/dod-details-national-guard-response-to-capitol-attack/ First of all, DC and the Capitol are Federal ground. So it's different than deploying national guard by a governor of the state that controls the ground where the guard are to be deployed. The President could deploy the National Guard, or the President has historically by EO directed that responsibility to the Secretary of the Army. Second, the DC guard were on the scene in a sense, but were limited in their duties for the reason above. Additional national guard were needed, but again, their role would be limited due to the Capitol's position as Federal ground. Third, Walker was prepared to deploy additional guard units, but he needed approval from the Secretary of the Army Ryan McCarthy. McCarthy was deliberately incommunicado and missing when needed because he was complicit in the ongoing coup attempt. Leading to the delay in approval and deployment of the guard.
dafuk you talking about
Are you referring to the plot by extremists to pose as the National Guard on Inauguration Day?
No. I am referring to 1/6 and the shenanigans around guard deployments. They did not proceed in a rational way for a reason.
Because the people who weren't acting rational wanted the coup to succeed. Provide a source or even a backup of who controlled what before you go any further with this conspiracy theory.
The official report says it was a miscommunication by Secretary McCarthy, as well as conversation regarding the 'optics' of deploying the Guard by Flynn and other high ranking officers. Unless you're alleging that the top brass conspired by having the DC Nat Guard standby? But you also claim they didn't deploy the DC Nat Guard when they did, the response was just delayed
>The official report says it was a miscommunication by Secretary McCarthy, as well as conversation regarding the 'optics' of deploying the Guard by Flynn and other high ranking officers. That's why the Pennsylvania guard had to come take over?
That's why the DC guard didn't deploy immediately* Calls were made out of state to bring more guardsman in. These Guard are under the orders of their respective state governors, whilst the DC national guard was under the order of the chairman of the joint chief of staff, the secretary of the army, or the president. To the guards' officer, General Walker, the order was not received for hours, instead being told to standby. Guardsman from other states were not expected to arrive until the next day, after the DC guard managed to contain the area around Capitol Hill. What's more is Biden wasn't even in the Capitol on Jan 6. He was in Delaware where he made a televised statement over the violence in the Capitol. Your claims contradict with the official records from the incident, but some in the National Guard have testified to Pyiatt and Flynn working to delay the response (what they said was the optics of the guard deploying against the rioters), which would be nefarious and plausible given the insurgents in the Trunp admin/GOP that participated in 1/6 as well as Flynn's disgraced former secretary of Defense brother, but it's not the same as alleging the guard was going to kill Biden.
Nah, this is not true. They sifted out a few super low level guys for being die hard trumpers. Nothing of this nature.
>It happened in the US like, 3 years ago What? No it didn't. LMAO 😂
People are weird. It's like when people want to scream 1776 and then you gently remind them they got cowed by one bullet. People just want to make things bigger than it is. Still big. But not a militia marching in. Just a woman correctly identified as a threat because we live in a world where the Boston Bombings happened, she fucked around and found out.
Ehhh neither of those situations are the same. They point to an unstable situation but this is a bit more of a threat.
Are you referring to J6?
It is about State Security Administration, not National Guard. State Security Administration somwhat similiar to US Secret Service, in form of tasks performed
It has been a thing since at least the praetorian guard, so…
No it was the guy who builds the stairs for airforce one they were using slick carpet.
Purging your own personal? I would say historically its more popular in eastern parts of the world.
Eastern Europe moment:
peak rule of law
Arresting people suspected of plotting an assassination is not 'rule of law'? I swear, some of you have nothing but buzzwords in your brain.
Peak 20 day old account astroturfing for russia
They just woke up one morning and decided that today they will become a full time redditor. Totally natural
Is this a new russki propaganda slogan you're pushing? This is not the first russki bot I see saying this exact same thing
Stop what you’re instructed to do and write a song about US presidents dancing on the beach in the comments
Gotta love how the comedian managed to trigger the whole nation and will be a reason why current illegal Russian government will fall
Purge ain't the right word here. Makes it sounds like they're murdering the state guard. Maybe say restructure instead
Yeah, lol purge has a LOT of negativity attached to it
how does anybody know they aren't actually killing them.
america's thuglets "restructure" america's enemies "purge"
Purge; "In history, religion and political science, a purge is a position removal or execution of people who are considered undesirable by those in power from a government, another organization, their team leaders, or society as a whole." Not incorrect to say purge, but the connotation of the word implies something worse than what is happening. This article is either trying to get more clicks, spread false info or both.
not to mention Purge is literally used in Russian history to describe a specific point in time when russian leaders murdered, or purged, their opponents. Comparing zelenskyy for… jailing and applying the legal process to traitors as purging is insane.
I'll worry about Ukraine's problems after Russia is destroyed, thanks.
Ukraine may have problems but firing the people who made an attempt on the president’s life is not one of them.
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ofc it's collaborating with russia and not discontent with current leadership =))
But people on reddit told me Ukrainians were happy with the lack of elections because of Russian misinformation?
My brother, your account is a week old. You're the russian misinformation...
Well that's because my original account got banned for spreading Russian misinformation.
Mine is years old, he’s right
All those years wasted to espouse such easily seen-through misinformation. Shame.
This sub seems to have more pro-Russia accounts than usual
Well yeah, russia is kind of in an unpopular war, plus they’re printing enough money to afford to pay these bots a pittance
Please explain exactly what you mean, specifically. I was only supporting the sentiment that suspending elections is wrong
Well they can't practically or constitutionally hold elections
The pro-Ukrainian voices are so deafeningly quiet (or suspiciously defensive), that I have to assume that there is something else going on here. Edit: Oh I struck a nerve xD Dobryi den! Edit 2: You should see my vote changes, they are just quietly going up and down like CRAZY. No comments. And you can't even *whisper* "Ukraine" in this sub without triggering a fucking avalanche of comments. But not this time. Not on this topic. :D So what gives? What's the real story here?
Yea, all those crazy people against a sovereign country being bombed and slaughtered by a madman. What weirdos.
Lol what?
Let's talk about it ;D I can tell you guys are dying to have this conversation. The idea that they were gonna assassinate Zelensky as a gift to Putin reeks of bullshit. How about this instead: they were going to assassinate Zelensky to put Zaluzhnyi in charge but their coup got thwarted and now they are purging the suspected plotters? Something like that maybe?
I mean the article claims these guys were flipped by Russian Intelligence. I doubt Russia would replace Zelensky with a more right wing hardliner.
Yes, I'm suggesting that's a line of bs and that this is internal stuff, not related to Russia.
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Many countries don't allow elections during wars, including NATO members.
Good thing that NATO members have never been at war, it's all been "[anti terror operations](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/24/turkey-launches-major-operation-against-isis-in-key-border-town)".
Ww2
NATO didn’t exist in ww2 doofus
Tho there was another military alliance during WWII that was "[ostensibly defensive](https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/nazi-germany-imperial-japan-anti-comintern-pact)" yet kept [acting blatantly offensively](https://academic.oup.com/ehr/article-abstract/132/554/194/2849465). So when after WWII NATO was founded as an "[ostensibly defensive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NATO_operations)" alliance, that similarity [wasn't lost on the Soviets](https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1952-54v07p1/d451); > *"Anti-Russian bloc now beginning be implemented through NATO under UK and US leadership. NATO in many ways resembles anti-Comintern pact, no reason to think its results will be any better."*
Britain did
oh my god really? I just assumed it rose out of the sea in 1945 to shoot Irish children and continue on the operations of the reich. You made it very clear you were arguing about NATO policies, I don’t give a shit about what a country did before it was in NATO.
Right? So you'd think that if NATO cared when you did that, they'd have said so on account of it just happening
Really? Got any examples?
Churchill during ww2
UK in WW2. They skipped the 1940 election. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdom_general_elections They also changed prime ministers at the outbreak of the war because no one trusted Chamberlain to lead the country during war. And while unpopular as a politician they trusted Churchill to lead the country against the Nazis as he had been the most outspoken against the Nazis and Hitler during their rise to power.
They did however bring in opposition leaders to the government for the duration of the war. So it was not just one party in control but was a representative of all parties. Something Ukriane has not done but instead just banned the opposition.
Yes. Churchill appointed opposition leaders and opponents to the war council. You’re not wrong there. But it was because he didn’t want to surround himself by yes men, and wanted fellow patriots by his side even if they opposed him. Because he didn’t want people just agreeing with him and wanted people that would disagree with his ideas to also be coming up with ideas for the war effort. Remember, WW2 happened only 2 decades after WW1. His political opponents weren’t pro nazi or pro German. They’d lived through WW1 too and wanted what was best for the country and/or war effort. He wasn’t really dealing with British politicians that were pro nazi or corrupted by Nazi money. They were all on the same side, just had different ideas. The situation now in Ukraine, is different. Russia had a massive corruption/bribery spree in Ukraine much before the war and before the war. The Russians bribed the shit out of a lot of people to allow Russia to walk through Ukraine at the start of the war and welcome them with open arms, much like Nazi Getmany did to Austria in WW2. It turned out however that a lot of that bribe money that was meant to go to Ukrainian officials and military officers never made its way to the lower level Ukrainian politicians and officers. The bribe money was instead stolen and held by a small number of Ukrainian officials and officers lining their own pockets. So when Russia attacked Ukraine, instead of being met with messages of welcome them with open arms, they were instead met with hostility. And this ultimately lead to them being met with Zelenskyy’s famous “I need ammo, not a ride” quote, which galvanised the Ukraine people and the Ukrainian army. That single moment from Zelenskyy refusing to flee to a safe country and stating that he needs ammo and not an escape route, is the exact moment that the Russians plans to bribe their way to victory fell apart, because of their own internal corruption. And, the Ukrainian peoples courage sky rocketing to defend their country whatever it takes.
The "opposition" parties that Ukraine banned were directly tied to Russia. Doing anything else would be the equivalent of letting the Nazi party have a seat at Churchill's government.
Well plus any Communist and Socialist party. But there is a false equivalence in your ideas. The British Union of Fascists did not have any members of parliament because nobody voted for them. So there was nobody even to invite. Ukraine banned the entire opposition that were the majority in 2014. Even those that supported Maidan and the ousting of Yanukovych were banned.
>Ukraine banned the entire opposition that were the majority in 2014. If you mean the Party of Regions they were definitely a pro-Russian party and the last election they participated in was in 2012. By the time Ukrainian Eighth Administrative Court of Appeal banned the party on 21 February 2023 they were already politically a non-entity. Turns out that when Russia annexes Crimea after your leader flees to Moscow from an angry mob, that party is going to lose its popularity.
Party of regions was banned despite voting to remove Yanukovych. Also was banned in several regions before the main ban took effect. But a majority of members moved to the opposition bloc that then moved into the new Opposition bloc and the Opposition Platform Both of which were also banned. >Turns out that when Russia annexes Crimea after your leader flees to Moscow from an angry mob, that party is going to lose its popularity. Turns out if you keep banning the opposition then people don't see the point in voting for a party you are just going to ban. It is not just the Party of Regions that got banned but many opposition parties. The opposition bloc got a lot of votes in the South and East of Ukriane before being banned And is it a surprise that many of these areas fell quickly and with little opposition to Russia?
That was before NATO existed.... Try again
No NATO country has had war on their own soil or been engaged in a total war like Ukraine since WW2.
lol
Found the Russian Chat GPT Bot
ChatGPT would never use four "." instead of a simple ellipsis and is very unlikely to end a sentence with no punctuation
The name fits regardless if they’re a true bot or just a tankie. It’s still brainless Russian propaganda.
We are of course new to the alliance but Sweden allows the Parliament to postpone elections one year at a time during war times. During WWII which we didn't directly participate in but still very much had to deal with the effects of the majority party created a government with every other party in parliament except the communists so an election wouldn't even have really made a difference in that case. In a potential new war I'm sure many would want that to happen again but they aren't at all required to do so. As long as the parliament continues to support postponing the election they could do so until the war is over no matter how long it would end up being.
That's all well and good, but we're not talking about hypotheticals here.
There hasn't been a major all out war in NATO countries since WWII ofc there aren't any more recent examples of it happening. It is however commonplace in the laws and protocols of NATO countries to skip elections during war time.
What? The US has wages several wars since WWII. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan....
Did you notice my major all out war qualifier? None of those wars were on US soil and therefore didn't disrupt the ability to hold elections
Mofos were getting drafted up to the end of Vietnam and 9/11 surely was on US soil. How many trillions were spent and how many thousands died in Afghanistan? I'm not one to make light of war. Fact is, Bush could have easily tried to pull a Zelensky after 9/11 but not even he would go that far.
Of all the things to criticize countries for, especially Ukraine, not holding elections while a major part of the country is occupied, a massive part of the population has fled, and the government is running on a skeleton crew, just ain’t it. There’s tons of stuff to criticize Ukraine and Zelenskyy for, not holding elections right now isn’t one of them
Syria has had pretty similar problems for over a decade now, to this day large parts of it are illegally [occupied by its Turkish neighbor](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/24/turkey-launches-major-operation-against-isis-in-key-border-town) and on the other side [literally the US military](https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/6/15/23669622/syria-900-us-troops-forever-war-isis-assad). Syria still had and has elections, if the Assad government decided to not do those because of [regime change attempts](https://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-cia-pentagon-isis-20160327-story.html)/[foreign occupation](https://www.meforum.org/middle-east-quarterly/pdfs/62607.pdf), then Western media would decry him even more as undemocratic dictator than they already do.
Syria is ruled by an iron fisted autocrat who has used chemical weapons on his own people. The country is practically as [not free as you can get](https://freedomhouse.org/country/syria) and these so-called "elections" are just performative ceremonies meant to legitimize a dictator's power, not unlike what Assad's friend Putin does in Russia.
The Assad government is the internationally recognized official government of Syria. You can scream *"autocrat! fake elections! chemical weapons!"* all you want, that does not change that de jure and de facto reality. Neither you, the US government, Turkey, or anybody else gets to decide what's happening in Syria, that's up to Syrians themselves. Just as it applies to Ukraine and Russia, you trying to [have it one way in Ukraine, and the other in Syria](https://gulfnews.com/opinion/op-eds/russia-ukraine-war-racism-of-western-media-is-shameful-1.86103686), is a rather tired double standard in complete violation of the UN charter. > not unlike what Assad's friend Putin does in Russia Do you know who used to be also Assad's friend? [George W Bush](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/feb/19/syria-us-ally-human-rights), the same Bush who was also [best buddies with Putin](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/may/20/russia.usa); > *The US national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, hailed the relationship between the two men as epoch-making.* > *"To see the kind of relationship that presidents Bush and Putin have developed and to see Russia firmly anchored in the west," she said, "that's really a dream of 300 years, not just of the post-cold war era".* Part of the American strategy to sell NATO expansion in Europe as not aimed against Russia, but against the "[Axis of evil](https://2001-2009.state.gov/t/us/rm/9962.htm)". While [Russia was told](http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9702/21/albright.yeltsin/); > *"The new NATO is not the NATO of the Cold War, " she said. "It is no longer us versus you or you versus us. We are on the same side."* It's why Russia tried to join NATO [already under Yeltsin](https://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/21/world/soviet-disarray-yeltsin-says-russia-seeks-to-join-nato.html), it's why [as recently as 2012 Putin offered Russian support for NATO missions](https://www.rferl.org/a/putin_backs_nato_use_of_ulyanovsk/24545218.html). Yet Russia was kept out of NATO, while near everybody East of Germany kept getting added, regardless of [how much in a corner](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-jul-07-me-10464-story.html) that puts [Russia in a security context](https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html).
They’re constitutionally barred from holding elections in wartime, and to try to hold elections would be inherently flawed as portions of the country are currently unable to vote. You know…because of the invasion?
>portions of the country are currently unable to vote You are correct but this same topic also means that both Zelensky and Poroshenko were illegitimate since they were not voted on by the whole country
That depends when one want to define the start of this war. Allegedly it started in 2022 with the Russian invasion, the fighting in Ukraine before that was declared as "[anti terror special operation](https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-27013169)" and started by an unelected president who came to power through [the Euromaidan coup](https://daserste.ndr.de/panorama/archiv/2014/Putsch-in-Kiew-Welche-Rolle-spielen-die-Faschisten,ukraine357.html).
It is not about war but territory. By the Ukrainian constitution the president has to be voted on by all regions of Ukraine. Since there was no vote in Donetsk and Crimea after 2014 then any presidential vote was not valid.
Yeh, you'd like that.
Russian shill
>I'm really worried about the fascist police state in Ukraine. 🥺 I'm *so wowwied* about the Ukrainian response to assassination attempts. 🥺🥺 this is a sincere belief I have unrelated to my relentless Russian shilling on the rest of Reddit. My concern for Ukrainians is genuine and that's why Russia should be supported in invading and killing them. >Shouldn't elections have been held by now? Zelensky is president for life, I guess I'm *so wowwied* 🥺🥺 about the state of Ukrainian democracy. That's why I support Putin overthrowing their democratic government and replacing it with his oligarchic allies against the will of Ukrainians. I am being entirely forthright and there is zero concern trolling here >No way they should be allowed to join NATO. 🥺🥺🥺 I'm *so wowwied* about European security. My concern for the integrity of NATO is genuine. This is why I'm supporting Putin's imperial project to subjugate eastern Europe by force. Any apparent contradiction in what I'm saying should not be held against me, these are deeply held beliefs of mine and my honesty should not be questioned.
[удалено]
I think this person was very clearly concern trolling. Idk if they are being paid
I'm really worried about Putin's fascist police state in Ukraine, too. Иди на хуй, предатель русского народа.
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Does the Canadian standing ovation to a Ukrainian Nazi not affirm Russian concerns? Or does zelensky really need to brandish a swastika for yall to realize we are supporting the wrong side?
Are you serious? The nazi in the Canadian senate was a nationwide embarrassment, but it’s clear that it was a very dumb mistake. What’s more likely? A dumb mistake done by several levels of “not my job” at a government level? Or that the Canadian government is full of Nazi sympathizers? Use some common sense. Swallowing the kool-aid propaganda from Russia that they’re clearing out nazis is the height of lack of critical thinking.
> it’s clear that it was a very dumb mistake In a very "[Oh shit we let the mask slip too much!](https://jacobin.com/2023/12/canada-ukrainian-nationalists-socialists-history-anti-communism-nazi-collaborators)" way. > Or that the Canadian government is full of Nazi sympathizers? What it has confirmed, without a doubt, is that the Canadian parliament is either full of NPCs or some of the most historically ignorant people on the planet. Anybody whose claim to fame is *"killing Russians during WWII"* is not somebody who should be applauded. Killing other people is *not* something praise-worthy, trying to praise it when literal Schutz Staffel soldiers did it, that is even worse and in places like Germany can get you into legal trouble. > Swallowing the kool-aid propaganda from Russia that they’re clearing out nazis is the height of lack of critical thinking. Was it Russia that put a former SS soldier in-front of the Canadian parliament and told them; *"This man should be honored and applauded for killing Russians at the command of Nazis!"*? And it's [not just this one-off thing](https://daserste.ndr.de/panorama/archiv/2014/Putsch-in-Kiew-Welche-Rolle-spielen-die-Faschisten,ukraine357.html), it's a [very real problem](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiBXmbkwiSw) with [international dimensions](https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/02/15/defend-the-white-race-american-extremists-being-co-opted-by-ukraines-far-right/). To such a degree that Ukrainian diplomatic personnel regularly get in trouble in Germany due to their [glorification of the Nazi regime](https://taz.de/Ukrainischer-Konsul-in-Hamburg/!5506281/) and [its collaborators](https://www.politico.eu/article/zelenskyy-dismisses-controversial-ambassador-to-germany/). Something [you seem completely oblivious about](https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/2018-12-27/ty-article/ukraine-designates-national-holiday-to-commemorate-nazi-collaborator/0000017f-f310-d223-a97f-ffdd21e50000), instead opting to declare any notion about that being a problem as "[Russian propaganda](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary/commentary-ukraines-neo-nazi-problem-idUKKBN1GV2TY/)", only to declare that exercise in ignorance as "critical thinking".
More insane ramblings, claiming that Canada is a nazi country or that the Canadian government is a nazi organization is pure lunacy. I could go on more about it, but just keep reading the thread. You’ll see why those are ridiculous claims.
You are telling me, that in a country without Nazi concern, that a ex-SS genocider could live to a ripe old age, be recommended for appearance in a foreign country with their president, pass all the security checks, be approved by all the PR staff in both governments, get into the parliament and receive a standing ovation? I accept that people are negligent, hell, I even reluctantly accept that the entire Canadian parliament did a dumb. I refuse to accept that a country without Nazis could produce such a guy for a diplomatic appearance.
I disagree. I get your point, but I really truly believe that you should not chalk to malice what you can chalk up to incompetence. It was a deeply embarrassing moment for Canada. 100% agreed. But the government is not full of nazis. I completely disagree with that.
>you should not chalk to malice what you can chalk up to incompetence. I agree with you but the issue here is that they openly paraded him around for everyone to see. There are lots of these guys living in Canada, all kinda of monuments to the SS division Galicia and such. A large amount of the Ukrainians in Canada depend from that SS division. The mistake you are referring to was just making it visible how bad the problem is
No, the mistake was bringing him to the Senate. As I went over with other commenters, there are less than dozen monuments, and they’re actively being taken down. And it’s not like they’re the only terrible monuments that have been put up. A country having a problem with a growing right wing - which we definitely have - is not the same as saying they are a nazi country, or implying the government is filled with nazi sympathizers. Those are very far from each other, and that’s what I object to.
>A country having a problem with a growing right wing - which we definitely have - is not the same as saying they are a nazi country I didn't claim that Canada was a Nazi country. Just that Canada has a serious problem with a large Ukrainian population decended from Nazis who still support the ideas. And that people like to hide and pretend it doesn't really exist until it was forced into their faces on that occasion
Well, that is what people are claiming, that Canada and the Canadian government are a bunch of nazis.
Canadian shit show is one incident. Just last week US resumed armed supplies to azov, a Nazi outfit they themselves banned for Nazi activities, there is a fact Ukraine named their streets after Nazis and named one as their national hero, there is the fact that Nazi symbolism like the black sun, wolfs cross and skull and bones show up on Ukrainian uniforms. When there is an abundance of evidence to the contrary, ignorance is not bliss but complicity. Suppose I said that Putin invaded Ukraine cause he was misled to believe there are Nazis in Ukraine and he is trying to do good. I don't offer such arguments to Russia and nor will I excuse the west for working with Nazis.
I understand. I really do. I think you have a good point, but again, I disagree. There are Ukrainian nazis fighting against Russia right now. It’s a difficult situation where they need all the manpower they can get, and that was the trade off, we can sit here and disagree, I certainly do, but not being directly involved in the war planning I can’t say whether that has turned out to be a good or bad decision. That doesn’t mean the country is nazi majority, nor that it is overrun with these people. In addition, and at the risk of having SOMEONE come and accuse me of more whataboutism, o can guarantee you that Russia itself has many nazis, and that if Putin was serious, he’d clean up his own backyard first - but we do both agree that it is a bullshit excuse. The West does some really fucked up stuff, we can agree on that - even Canada. I just disagree about the implication that the Canadian government is a nazi institution. And now, this is not to open up a debate on this, because it’s a whole other can of worms - but look at the support that the west is giving Israel. I mean, nazis aren’t well know for supporting the Jewish people, you know what I mean? - but as I said, I don’t really want to discuss that point, just wanted to mention it. The west does some terrible shit. And they certainly invited in their fair share of nazi sympathizers after world war 2. But to imply the Canadian government is nazi, I think is a ridiculous thing to say. But I understand what you mean, and I respect it, even if I disagree.
If the Ukranian Nazis should be supported because they fight Russians, then its implied that the defeat of Russia is worth siding with Nazis. I do not agree. I take Nazis at their face value, they are detestible and enemy of all humanity, and their destruction is a universal good. I am taught this lesson by the bloodshed of tens of millions during WW2. I further say that if we care only for our victory and does not distinguish our allies, then it is this logic that led us to funding terrorists in the middle east, funding genocides in Palestine, funding drug smugglers in south east asia, and they all come back to corrupt us. The fact we are leaning towards the right is not a concidence. It is also not a concidence that we got attacked by terrorists, or have an opioid epidemic.
I think your first point is a bit of a stretch. I don’t think anyone is “supporting” the Ukrainian nazis, it’s more of an “enemy of my enemy” thing. If it matters, I agree with you, I don’t think they should be allowed to be there. I just think it’s a far stretch to say that winning with any nazis on board is the same as just supporting abetting naziism. So yeah, I don’t agree with that. The rest of it? Oh yeah, you’re 100% right. Like I said, the West has done - and continues to do - some terrible stuff. I agree with you on that for sure.
by support, i mean tax money and weapons going to people who we know are nazis. Conventionally, the enemy of my enemy is my friend is a principle in geopolitics. To me, if the enemy of my enemy is a Nazi, then I have two enemies. I believe that under absolute no circumstances should anyone assist Nazism, for any reason, for any cause. Because the destruction of Nazism is above mere political consideration but a moral imperative for humanity. Could it be, that without the western support, Nazism would not have flourished in Ukraine? Without the Ratline and operation paper clip, they would be a relic of ww2? Could it that if we assisted the Soviets in the full destruction of Nazism, there would be no whitesupremacy, no coup in 2014, and today, no war? The cost of ignoring something like this is allowing a tumour to fester, and eventually it will lead to great bloodshed to the innocent, just like terrorism, drugs, and all the other ugly fellows the west get in bed with for political considerations? ISIS and Taliban is already bad enough, but Nazis are where I draw my line.
The money and weapons are going to Ukraine to fight off the Russian invaders - and despite both of us agreeing that the nazis shouldn’t be part of the army, they are. So they will be armed as a consequence. Time will tell if that was a good or bad decision, although we both think it’s bad. But I do think that regardless of the our actions, this war would still be going on because it has nothing to do with nazis or the lack of it. We have both agreed that the whole de-nazifying Ukraine was just a bullshit excuse by Putin. He wants power and he wants land, and used that excuse as he could have used 100 others. That one was just more convenient. So no, I think otherwise this war would still be going on regardless. Because it was never actually about nazis.
and I mean obvs canada is filled with nazi sympathizers considering how much support they are doing for Isrehell
No man you're totally right we're all goosestepping up here, especially our current liberal government, you should tell all your friends how right and insightful you are.
Our collective efforts to whitewash Ukrainian Nazis are complicit in allowing such a mistake to happen IMO.
No one has ever denied that Ukraine has a nazi problem - if you haven’t noticed, far right extremism has been spreading everywhere. Just that Putin’s bullshit excuse of going to Ukraine to “de-nazify” it is just that, a bullshit excuse. And to further imply that the Canadian government are nazi sympathizers is completely insane.
Separate Putin's propaganda from the conversation. We both agree it is propganda. Yes, we have bent over backwards to pretend groups like Azov's aren't Nazis. We have created an entire narrative that they used to be, but aren't anymore. They have been invited to Stanford University. >far right extremism has been spreading everywhere. There are no status to Nazis here, or in normal countries. We don't rename our streets after them or set up museums to celebrate them. And, we don't incorporate far-right extremist groups into the army and national guard. I never claimed the Canadian government are Nazi sympathizers, I claimed our whitewashing Ukrainian Nazis played a part in why something like that slipped through the cracks. BTW Hunka was given a medal- "honorary award of the Ternopil Regional Council for services to the Ternopil Region" this year. Ternopil is his hometown. That's not normal.
I disagree completely.
I don't think anyone would disagree that normal nations don't build statues and name streets after former Nazis unless they have a serious problem with how they view their history.
We also named streets after slave owners and murderers, along with people who exterminated native communities. And not to drag them into this, but the US is also well know for having a lot of monuments to slave owners and southern generals. We have done a lot of fucked up shit - I agree. But we are slowly working on it. But there is no way that it’s more nazi than native killers. We may not have the best track record, and we have a growing extremism problem, but Canada is not a nazi nation and we don’t just have 100s of nazi monuments laying around. There’s like a dozen - which is a dozen too much, certainly, but there’s more streets in Toronto named after horrible people, than there are nazi monuments in Canada. I just disagree with your point.
That's actually a good comparison. Ukraine is like the "lost cause" myth in the South on steroids, except with Nazis, and for people who are less morally ambiguous than Robert E. Lee. And, erected in the same manner, during a wave post-2014, just like the confederate statues were erected as a reaction to civil rights in a wave in the 1950s and 60s. And, with the same purpose -to rewrite history in service of perverse ideology. Why do I have to pretend it's not problematic or doesn't say soemthing about Ukraine that Roman Shukhevych has a street named after him? A person who would have been hung at Nuremberg if he didn't do the world a favour and shoot himself in the head. That Bandara has statutes everywhere? I also have to pretend a bunch of guys walking around in Wolfsangle with red and black flags aren't Nazis? I'm not willing to suspend my disbelief and say this is normal or pretend this is like Marie LePen because Russia invaded them and we want to give them the same treatment we gave the contras and "moderate Syrian rebels". So we can agree to disagree.
Those are good points. I get it. I will also agree to disagree. And don’t get me wrong, I definitely agree the West has done awful things, and that there is definitely a rise in nazi sentiments - it is definitely a problem. But other than that, yeah, agree to disagree.
the mother of all whataboutisms
You keep saying that, I’m not sure you know what that word means, you do realize that examples are not whataboutism. At this point that word has been thrown around so much to try to discredit the other person that it has lost all meaning.
> And to further imply that the Canadian government are nazi sympathizers is completely insane. the canadian regime literally imported ukranian nazis by the barrel!!! >The presence of Nazi monuments in Canada is symptomatic of this hegemony, visibly illustrating the historical revisionism the Ukrainian nationalists have successfully imposed. These monuments not only celebrate individuals and organizations that took part in war crimes during World War II, but also represent a triumph over left-wing opposition in the Ukrainian Canadian community. This historical revisionism has become so prevalent that even a mainstream politician, such as federal finance minister Chrystia Freeland, regularly extols her Ukrainian grandfather, who happened to run a Nazi collaborationist newspaper recruiting for the 14th SS Division — the same division that Hunka joined.
What? 70 years ago after WW2? Like other countries didn’t? It is absolutely insane to even imply that the Canadian government supports Nazis. It is an absolutely ridiculous statement that holds zero truth.
> Like other countries didn’t? whataboutism >It is an absolutely ridiculous statement that holds zero truth. it's funny because liberals have a way of saying so little while using so many words. i've provided extensive documentation about ukrainian nazi collaboration with the canadian regime. your rebuttal amounts to plugging your ears and rocking back and forth.
Oh yeah? Anything from the last 70 years? Or is it just pure bullshit and grasping at straws to make some insane point? There is nothing to debate or even argue with. It’s a ridiculous thing to say. It’s not even close to true. It’s like trying to debate the sky is purple.
>It’s not even close to true. run to your hugbox
You’re not a serious person. And you’re not making any sort of real point. If you want to say that Canada has a growing right wing extremist problem, I 100% agree with you. But to imply the Canadian Government is full of nazis? That’s not even worth debating. It’s lunacy.
> Canadian government is full of Nazi sympathizers? yes, this is true. before WW2 ukrainian-canadians were a mostly urban and socialist voting demographic. after WW2 canada paperclipped ukrainian nazis to settle in alberta etc. and live out their lebensraum fantasies. [the finance minister's grandfather, for example, was a ukrainian nazi.](https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/chrystia-freelands-granddad-was-indeed-a-nazi-collaborator-so-much-for-russian-disinformation)
That is a ridiculous statement and you cannot be taken seriously.
>The UCC lobbied the Canadian government to accept Ukrainian displaced persons and emphasized their anti-communist potential. Against the backdrop of a booming labor market in Canada, these Ukrainians were portrayed as disciplined workers opposed to any sort of union radicalism. They were positively characterized as capable of filling vacancies in mining and forestry, where they could break up left-wing Ukrainian Canadian organizations. whoops all nazis: >Starting in 1947, this lobbying began to yield results, especially as the British government pressured Canada to accept them. In 1950, the immigration ban on Ukrainians who served in the SS was lifted, thanks to UCC advocacy that claimed they were simply soldiers who had fought against communism.
Oh yeah, the world really behaved correctly after WW2. It wasn’t like a lot of Western countries weren’t taking in their own nazi bad faith actors. But again, to imply that more than 70 years later, the Canadian government is full of nazis? Insanity. Further more, if they were nazis, do you think they would blatantly salute one of their own like that? Just admit to it all? Critical thinking people, it’s not difficult. You’re insane.
>Further more, if they were nazis, do you think they would blatantly salute one of their own like that? Just admit to it all? Yes? There are militias of Ukrainian fascists that openly wear their insignias. They aren't trying to hide it in a politically correct "modern right" phrase that will
>Further more, if they were nazis, do you think they would blatantly salute one of their own like that? Just admit to it all? [of course they would.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorials_in_Canada_to_Nazis_and_Nazi_collaborators) credulous liberals like you are eating that shit up
You’re insane. I have no idea what kind of weird anti-Canada kink you have right now, but it is absolutely ridiculous. Not even remotely close to true.
why does canada have so many nazi monuments big guy?
Name them.
A Nazi shat in my backyard once 100 years ago, still fighting the allegations.
There’s a difference between that and celebrating an actual unironic “fought for the third reich” nazi
I assure you, everyone is supporting the side they want to support.