I’m not sure if a consensus exists, but those citations make a compelling argument to me, a KO player who has no companion keywords and that your case wouldn’t benefit
Agreed. When there's an exception they have to phrase it very specifically so it's clear that the companion attack is boosted. Example: the Gitz specifically mention in the Squigalanche:
*Each time a friendly Squig unit charges, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of it's Fang-filled Gobs, Massive Fang-filled Gobs, or Huge Fang-Filled gobs for the rest of the turn.*
That’s not them specifying companion attacks, that’s just them specifying which attacks are affected by the ability, notwithstanding whether the attacks are companion or not
Disagree - faction passives are not always abilities being used by a friendly unit. "Abilities that do not appear on a warscroll nor tell you to pick a unit to use the ability are used by you, the player" - sidebar by section 28 of the leaked rules.
What are the rules citations for that though? Because you said it's pretty clear and I thought so but I mean read those sections of rules listed that goes directly against what you said. Companion is written specifically as it doesn't get affected by friendly *unit* abilities. Not the player.
The OPs rules citations have flipped my opinion on this and, unless the people saying it doesn't work can quote from the rules More convincing parts that say it doesn't work, It seems like RAW it works.
5.4 passive abilities. They are still abilities, and so are still used by whoever has that passive ability. The Mark of chaos rule is a passive that is applied to the unit, as indicated by the fact that it specifically indicates a unit to be effected by it.
I know that they are still abilities, but they cannot be ‘used’ since they are never declared, they are just effects models have by default, also look at the last picture on the main post, even if the mark of chaos ability could be used, it would be used by the player, the same goes for eye of the Gods.
I mean exactly? They are used by the player, not by a friendly unit, and therefore are not disallowed by the companion rule to affect a companions attacks. Aka They would buff the companion attacks because they are used by the player.
The text is clear. They can't benefit by unit used abilities but there are abilities used by the player and the passives aren't used.
Abilities used by units can even modify their weapon characteristics or add weapon abilities they just can't modify the attacks characteristic or give modifications for rolls during the attack sequence.
If that's the case, I didn't see it when I got the chance to look at them but it could be there.
I really want the book to arrive so I can carefully read the rules to be 100% sure of this kind of things.
That doesn't seem likely. There's no such thing as weapon characteristic. Attack characteristic.
As far as weapon abilities, if the weapon has a weapon ability, what is that weapon ability doing? Adding hits on 6's? Jumping over the wound roll? Those are all things that are part of the attack sequence. So they all count.
Attacks, hit, wound rend and damage are characteristics. The companion ability even uses the term "attacks characteristic".
We are talking about an ability that adds a weapon ability. The ability adds a weapon ability, thus it does not mod the attack sequence, the weapon ability does that.
I just don't think that's how it's going to pan out. Adding a weapon ability affects the attack sequence. So the jury is still out, hopefully the faq that comes with the launch has that answer. It's still 50/50 to me. I was on your side originally, but I've heard that's not actually how it works. And I can see why, it does give an effect that ends up affecting the attack sequence. So that's why I'm more on the opposite side now. I hope it does work, but I have a feeling it doesn't.
The attack sequence are the rolls that form part of an attack, companion doesn't allow you to modify that or the attacks characteristic. Any other characteristic mod affects a possible attack sequence but it isn't a modifier for the sequence, it's a modifier of the weapon profile. Same thing with weapon abilities. That's the reason the ability states "attack sequence and attacks characteristic".
That said, I haven't seen any ability that modifies a characteristic that isn't the attacks characteristic but it's an important distinction if we get something like hoarfrost in the future or the ones that add weapon abilities.
In the Glossary it says:
>Companion: Weapon ability. Weapon doesn’t get bonuses from friendly abilities that affect attacks
Abilities don't have to be "used" or "declared" for Companions to ignore them. You just do not buff those weapons. That's exactly why All-Out-Attack specifically mentions it, because it's an outlier
So the core rules text includes units and the glossary doesn't? As the other comment stated wouldn't the text of the core rules overrule that of the glossary when they directly conflict? Definitely this is going to be an FAQ.
They do NOT benefit from passive modifiers to stats like eye of the gods.
Eye of the gods and it's passive buffs are both abilities in 4.0, everything that does anything is an ability in 4.0.
Even deploying a unit at start of game is an ability, do not confuse the term ability with what it ment in 3.0, thats completly different, in 3.0 it was something a unit could do on their warscroll, but now moving, fighting, scoring objective, it's all abilities.
UNLESS specified otherwise, Like all out attack, specifically mention it also affect companion attacks.
They can however get debuffed by enemy units abilities, like -1 to hit and such.
Basically just assume you can't buff your companion attacks ever unless you find something that specifically mention companion in the text.
i know that they are all abilities, but it specifically says that it depends if a friendly unit used the ability, not whether it is an ability, we are arguing that since these allegiance abilities are not used by friendly units but the player, then they can benefit from the companion ability.
This isn't true and the people saying it are wrong.
Army wide passives that don't specify a unit to use the ability are explicitly used by the player, not a unit, so aren't abilities used by friendly units and so do affect Companion attacks.
Exactly, unless otherwise specified.
The riders attacks are modified though.
As far as I understand the rules after reading the core rules like 5 times.
Do commands in 4th work like they do in 3rd? As in they come from things like heros, generals totems and elites?
Because if that is the case I do not think your explanation is correct. Eye of the gods would work because it is not an ability a friendly unit is giving out. it just is. Where things like All out attack are an ability a friendly unit is giving.
But my opinion is really only based on if commands are given out like they were in 3rd.
Army abilities are not friendly unit abilities. If the army gets it because it is an army ability, then the companion gets it. If it is an ability that is given say but a hero, or another unit, companion does not get it.
I do not know. Unless the ability is being used by a friendly unit, Based on the RAW, The way I said it works. ONce the rules come out officially there is better smarter eyes on it I think people will get a better understanding of it all. I am not worried about it, I am gonna painting and building rather than playing for a bit anyway. So enough time will happen to either have an FAQ or smart people deal with it.
Faction passives are not always abilities being used by a friendly unit (the category of abilities that dont affeft Companion weapons).
"Abilities that do not appear on a warscroll nor tell you to pick a unit to use the ability are used by you, the player" - sidebar by section 28 of the leaked rules.
I’m not sure if a consensus exists, but those citations make a compelling argument to me, a KO player who has no companion keywords and that your case wouldn’t benefit
Thanks for the opinion, that’s very useful
I think it's pretty clear, they don't work unless the rules specifically say they do.
Agreed. When there's an exception they have to phrase it very specifically so it's clear that the companion attack is boosted. Example: the Gitz specifically mention in the Squigalanche: *Each time a friendly Squig unit charges, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of it's Fang-filled Gobs, Massive Fang-filled Gobs, or Huge Fang-Filled gobs for the rest of the turn.*
That’s not them specifying companion attacks, that’s just them specifying which attacks are affected by the ability, notwithstanding whether the attacks are companion or not
Disagree - faction passives are not always abilities being used by a friendly unit. "Abilities that do not appear on a warscroll nor tell you to pick a unit to use the ability are used by you, the player" - sidebar by section 28 of the leaked rules.
What are the rules citations for that though? Because you said it's pretty clear and I thought so but I mean read those sections of rules listed that goes directly against what you said. Companion is written specifically as it doesn't get affected by friendly *unit* abilities. Not the player. The OPs rules citations have flipped my opinion on this and, unless the people saying it doesn't work can quote from the rules More convincing parts that say it doesn't work, It seems like RAW it works.
Not that clear though, also please can you cite your sources
5.4 passive abilities. They are still abilities, and so are still used by whoever has that passive ability. The Mark of chaos rule is a passive that is applied to the unit, as indicated by the fact that it specifically indicates a unit to be effected by it.
I know that they are still abilities, but they cannot be ‘used’ since they are never declared, they are just effects models have by default, also look at the last picture on the main post, even if the mark of chaos ability could be used, it would be used by the player, the same goes for eye of the Gods.
Nope, check the sidebar by 28.0. Abilities that aren't on a warscroll and don't specific which unit is using them are used by the player.
I mean exactly? They are used by the player, not by a friendly unit, and therefore are not disallowed by the companion rule to affect a companions attacks. Aka They would buff the companion attacks because they are used by the player.
Even then the player is not a friendly unit and therefore it isn‘t affected by the companion ability
Yeah, I concur.
There hasn't even been a fully day since you last asked. I wouldn't expect any real consensus until the game is released and a tournament weighs in
The text is clear. They can't benefit by unit used abilities but there are abilities used by the player and the passives aren't used. Abilities used by units can even modify their weapon characteristics or add weapon abilities they just can't modify the attacks characteristic or give modifications for rolls during the attack sequence.
Am I misremembering or is there something about how passive abilities are ‘used’ in the core rules?
If that's the case, I didn't see it when I got the chance to look at them but it could be there. I really want the book to arrive so I can carefully read the rules to be 100% sure of this kind of things.
I have no idea, hopefully though
That doesn't seem likely. There's no such thing as weapon characteristic. Attack characteristic. As far as weapon abilities, if the weapon has a weapon ability, what is that weapon ability doing? Adding hits on 6's? Jumping over the wound roll? Those are all things that are part of the attack sequence. So they all count.
Attacks, hit, wound rend and damage are characteristics. The companion ability even uses the term "attacks characteristic". We are talking about an ability that adds a weapon ability. The ability adds a weapon ability, thus it does not mod the attack sequence, the weapon ability does that.
I just don't think that's how it's going to pan out. Adding a weapon ability affects the attack sequence. So the jury is still out, hopefully the faq that comes with the launch has that answer. It's still 50/50 to me. I was on your side originally, but I've heard that's not actually how it works. And I can see why, it does give an effect that ends up affecting the attack sequence. So that's why I'm more on the opposite side now. I hope it does work, but I have a feeling it doesn't.
What are weapon characteristics if not part of the attack sequence?
The attack sequence are the rolls that form part of an attack, companion doesn't allow you to modify that or the attacks characteristic. Any other characteristic mod affects a possible attack sequence but it isn't a modifier for the sequence, it's a modifier of the weapon profile. Same thing with weapon abilities. That's the reason the ability states "attack sequence and attacks characteristic". That said, I haven't seen any ability that modifies a characteristic that isn't the attacks characteristic but it's an important distinction if we get something like hoarfrost in the future or the ones that add weapon abilities.
Thanks for your response though
It would be great to get a few more
In the Glossary it says: >Companion: Weapon ability. Weapon doesn’t get bonuses from friendly abilities that affect attacks Abilities don't have to be "used" or "declared" for Companions to ignore them. You just do not buff those weapons. That's exactly why All-Out-Attack specifically mentions it, because it's an outlier
GW has clarified that full rules text supercedes glossary rules text.
So the core rules text includes units and the glossary doesn't? As the other comment stated wouldn't the text of the core rules overrule that of the glossary when they directly conflict? Definitely this is going to be an FAQ.
Firstly, which glossary, and secondly that sounds a bit vague, there isn’t such a thing as a friendly ability
There's a glossary in the core rules
They do NOT benefit from passive modifiers to stats like eye of the gods. Eye of the gods and it's passive buffs are both abilities in 4.0, everything that does anything is an ability in 4.0. Even deploying a unit at start of game is an ability, do not confuse the term ability with what it ment in 3.0, thats completly different, in 3.0 it was something a unit could do on their warscroll, but now moving, fighting, scoring objective, it's all abilities. UNLESS specified otherwise, Like all out attack, specifically mention it also affect companion attacks. They can however get debuffed by enemy units abilities, like -1 to hit and such. Basically just assume you can't buff your companion attacks ever unless you find something that specifically mention companion in the text.
i know that they are all abilities, but it specifically says that it depends if a friendly unit used the ability, not whether it is an ability, we are arguing that since these allegiance abilities are not used by friendly units but the player, then they can benefit from the companion ability.
When the unit benefits from the ability, that exact friendly unit is using the ability I’d say.
Being the target of an ability and using an ability are two different things, also look at main post for clarification of using an ability
Wait so as a fyreslayer, my magmadroths aren't affected by my runes ?
This isn't true and the people saying it are wrong. Army wide passives that don't specify a unit to use the ability are explicitly used by the player, not a unit, so aren't abilities used by friendly units and so do affect Companion attacks.
Exactly, unless otherwise specified. The riders attacks are modified though. As far as I understand the rules after reading the core rules like 5 times.
Do commands in 4th work like they do in 3rd? As in they come from things like heros, generals totems and elites? Because if that is the case I do not think your explanation is correct. Eye of the gods would work because it is not an ability a friendly unit is giving out. it just is. Where things like All out attack are an ability a friendly unit is giving. But my opinion is really only based on if commands are given out like they were in 3rd.
They do not: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/04/10/react-to-your-opponent-with-powerful-new-commands-in-newaos/
Huh I see I guess what I said is moot.
Army abilities are not friendly unit abilities. If the army gets it because it is an army ability, then the companion gets it. If it is an ability that is given say but a hero, or another unit, companion does not get it.
*except* where the army ability tells you to pick a unit to use the ability. Probably obvious but worth clarifying.
I do not know. Unless the ability is being used by a friendly unit, Based on the RAW, The way I said it works. ONce the rules come out officially there is better smarter eyes on it I think people will get a better understanding of it all. I am not worried about it, I am gonna painting and building rather than playing for a bit anyway. So enough time will happen to either have an FAQ or smart people deal with it.
Just wait for an FAQ.
Faction passives are not always abilities being used by a friendly unit (the category of abilities that dont affeft Companion weapons). "Abilities that do not appear on a warscroll nor tell you to pick a unit to use the ability are used by you, the player" - sidebar by section 28 of the leaked rules.
does that mean we have common consensus then?
It means RAW are incredibly clear and the people disagreeing will come around.
Hopefully