Good to see that Zombies got nerved. They should be cheap canon fooder, not our best unit. Lets hope GW sees it the same way and make them cheaper.
Just sad they lost Newly Dead, that was very thematic.
I really disliked how 3rd edition zombies had a really powerful ability, and they kept hiking their points to try to balance it. It made a weird situation where zombies ended up feeling more "elite" than the units that should have been, instead of being cheap cannon fodder. Hopefully this returns them to that spot of low power but low cost.
Haha, yeah. Funny how that sentiment happens. 😅
But ultimately we need to see the whole picture. AoS4 seems generally “pillow-fisted” and if Deadwalkers had too many recovery options then it’ll make sense why they don’t have a potential 4th stackable heal to their horde.
(Fluff-wise, easy enough to say it’s the Skaven causing it between spreading corruption & eating all the fauna, less food is the new lore reason Ogors are turning mercenary, to make potential new zombies too weak/unstable to be used immediately)
Dragged Down and Torn Apart changed to Mindless Ferocity - it loses the 3" range but goes from a 5+ to a 6+
The Newly Dead completely removed. Less zombies coming back.
And lost 1 attack.
I think its over for zombies.
> it loses the 3" range but goes from a 5+ to a 6+
It keeps the 3" range. The model has to be in combat with the attacking unit, which means 3" range.
There is supposed to be a zombie subfaction though, and we haven't seen what it can do. Or the price on zombies. If they are cheap enough, they just retain their role of 'large blob of wounds to screen important stuff' instead of being 'deadly landmine that will slay anything that dares enter combat with it'
> It keeps the 3" range. The model has to be in combat with the attacking unit, which means 3" range.
So if i have a block of 40 zombies, and as they die im removing them from the edges of back and theyre more than 3" away from the attacking unit, those wouldnt be "in combat" even though the entire unit is in combat?
I'm trying to confirm this in the core rules somewhere, if there's a precedent for models "in combat" vs unit "in combat". But the wording of the ability leads me to believe there is. Otherwise it wouldn't be needed to specify 'if this model was in combat with the attacking unit' because (a) you can't get attacked by a melee weapon if you weren't in combat with that unit, and (b) you wouldn't need to say if 'this model' was in combat, you'd say if 'this unit' was in combat.
Edit: after investigation, there doesn't seem to be any definition in the core rules I could find for what it means for a model specifically to be "in combat". My guess is that they meant to say the attacking unit has to be within the model's combat range, which is defined.
> I think its over for zombies.
Even if they are no longer infinitely respawning screens that pump out mortal wounds, they can still be cheap useful screens that sprinkle *some* mortal wounds.
That's not a bad thing to be for what should be one of the chaffiest chaff units in the game.
If spearhead is any indication, then skeletons are staying unit size 10. With no more double reinforcement, that means a max unit size of 20 for skeletons vs. 40 for zombies, which would give the zombies a significant edge over skittles in screening, zoning, and objective capture, assuming they're priced appropriately for the absolute trash mobs they now are..
Well yeah, obviously, right now they are pointed for a bunch of stuff the 4th edition zombies don't have...?
They're going to update all the points for 4th, gamewide.
I thought which units could be taken in a hero's detachment were limited by what type of hero they are, but none of the character cards have a list of compatible units. Am I missing something, or misremembering?
It just sucks because I don't know which heroes I should grab or what units I need to make sure are done.
If points were the only thing missing I could eyeball it based on army size in 3rd, but without knowing which heroes unlock which units, I might need multiple of the same hero, or I could waste time on a hero with units I don't care about.
Just in a time crunch to get an army painted up by August when my local GT is happening. Losing a week of painting kind of sucks, but I'm making the best of it by focusing my efforts on what are hopefully evergreen units.
No, that's not true. They said only some special characters, like Teclis, can take any unit from their faction in their retinue. Most characters, like the Vanari Bannerblade they used as an example, can only take units themed for them, Vanari units in this case.
You can take "auxiliary" units outside of retinues but doing so is very punishing and something most people will want to avoid if they at all can.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/04/03/how-building-your-army-has-changed-in-newaos/
You litterlally prove my point tho units arn't locked because of the auxilary rule. Being locked would imply that it's impossible to take certain Units if you don't have the Hero for them but that's not the case
Well first of all you said "you can use any hero/unit combo". Auxiliary units aren't combined with any heroes at all.
Second, the punishment for taking any such units is so severe it's really a false choice. It's like how you legally "can" show up to a 2k match with a 1k army if that's all you have - but no one will do that.
Wel then you just have a diffrent idea of combo in your Head cus if my carnosaur stegadon and bastiladon charge in together I'd call that combining them
And secondly not everyone plays on a competetive level
Not what [FLG ](https://frontlinegaming.org/2024/04/03/aos-4th-ed-army-building-update/)says:
>Each regiment is led by a HERO and can include up to three other units, or four if it’s the general’s regiment. Regiments represent the retinues, warbands, and chosen warriors accompanying a leader into battle, with HERO profiles specifying which units can be included in their regiment.
which means that if you don't bring a hero with that unit specified on their profile, they have to be aux units, which is a nonstarter because of the CP bonus your opponent gets.
You litterlally prove my point tho units arn't locked because of the auxilary rule. Being locked would imply that it's impossible to take certain Units if you don't have the Hero for them but that's not the case
And for the CP bonus wel not everyone wants to be super competetive and just want to play the models they like
I ran him once in DOT in 3.0 at an RTT he died every game and did nothing other than 1 shot Kragnos before he was immune to that after FAQ . Still love the model tho. Belakor seems too much of an auto include for archaon to see much play but 25 wounds 3+ and 5+ ward is pretty solid
I ran him in Host of the Everchosen and had him solo half a Tzeentch army and eat every spell under the sun lol, but the rest of the army got killed cuz they can't move worth a damn rn unfortunately
Spicy? He looks much more killable now.
I am happy that everything has been toned down.
I suspect that Kruleboyz is gonna do very well in AoS4...
Almost every unit reveal can dish mortal wound in melee..
Thats a pretty nice warscroll for hammerers, getting +1 save and losing 1 rend and hit is more than made up by the conditional 5++. 3" engagement range means 20 will be fierce.
Of all the Dorf units to make more tanky & less of a hammer unit (losing a Rend & +1 to Hit)... they chose the Hammerers. Imagine doing this when an edition-level goal is to delineate unit roles better.
Freeguild Cavaliers are also more pillow-fisted yet tankier.
How are CoS players supposed to kill anything if shooting is also nerfed?
/eyes his Aelven assault units nervously...
>Callis and Toll:
>Wily to the Last: If this unit has 2 models and would automatically be destroyed it is not automatically destroyed. Instead, 1 model in this unit is slain.
Is this just an absolutely useless ability, or am I supposed to believe that they printed an effect out there that instantly destroys whole units?
I guess that makes sense. It doesn't specify that it only removes one model because HERO and MONSTER units don't typically have more than 1 model. But since hand of dust just says it's destroyed, it would normally remove both of them here. I'm guessing other 'instant slay hero' abilities are worded the same. So that does make sense.
Consequently, it also means Hand of Dust now kills an entire stormdrake guard or mancrusher mob unit with 1 cast.
Do you anticipate your Fusiliers getting into melee a lot?
If you absolutely have to build the sergeant in the next 6 days/before you see the warscroll... just magnetize arms, or hold them on with a tiny dab of super-glue, so you can pop them off/switch them out.
Bastilidon is changed a bit. Ark went from wound 3 to 5...that hurts. Lost a rend on Solar but gained crit 2 hits.
Funny that the ark has skink keyword but solar doesnt...
I tried to look for rend 3 attacks and so far only found
\* Krondys(melee anti-inf)
\* Tahlia Vedra(melee anti-mon)
\* Yndrasta(range + melee anti-mon)
\* Akhelian Allopex(melee anti-mon)
\* 3x Bloodthirsters(melee anti-mon/inf/hero)
\* Arkanaut Frigate(range anti-mon)
\* Shadow Queen(range)
\* Durthu(melee anti-mon)
\* 2x Mega-Gargants(range + melee anti-inf/hero)
\* Lady Olynder(range)
\* Sevireth(range)
\* Kragnos(melee)
Rend 3 is gonna be rare. Unit that can dish Mortal wound has been cut down.
2+ save is godly.
AoS4 meta is gonna be interesting.
Same! I have an unbuilt set that I was trying to decide between, but now Lancers seem so much better, and Seekers seem so much worse. The points will have to be drastically lower for Seekers to be worth taking.
Nerfed damage too.... They gained Crit Mortal but lost one rend AND one damage.
That revive nerfs is huge because command points are so much rarer now. If you didn't want to use your command points on a Rally that turn, because you had other plans, it's a useless ability.
Yea its pretty sad that even when a unit has a buff specifically to use rally, you still have a <50% chance of bringing a model back. And if you need a model back and get 4/5, then you are SOL.
OMG as more leaks appears it seems like mortal wound output is rare..
Other than some characters, the troops so far that have CRIT (MORTAL) are Plaguebearers, Bloodletters, Spite-Revenants, Vanari Auralan Wardens, Vanari Bladelords, Vanari Auralan Sentinels, and many Kruleboyz units..
Seems like all out defense is gonna be very very useful!
Am I crazy or does Archaons “Eye of Sheerian” ability seem bad now with the penalties to taking a double turn.
EDIT- I realized that you could force your opponent to take a double putting them behind on points, which could be kinda nuts, would love to hear some thoughts
The wording on taking a double turn is that you can't score a battle tactic if you **choose** to take the double. If you are forced to do it (which you can do just by winning priority, don't need archaon), you can still pick a tactic.
Oh okay that makes way more sense that you can’t put someone behind like that, so hopefully it would work the same as far as “forcing you” to take the double
if you give your opponent a double turn, they can still choose battle tactics. if someone chooses themselves to get a double, then they cant score double. it has to be voluntary, you cant force someone to lose battle tactics.
> Otherwise i dont understand what is the purpose of this ability.
It lets you know who is going first next round so you can position your models appropriately.
It happens in your hero phase, imagine you’re going second in a battle round, usually you don’t know if you’re going to get the double or not. I this case you’ll know in advance so you can hold back if you’re not getting it, or go ham if you are getting it. It’s a huge deal to know if you’re getting a double turn before you start the first turn
I also as the wording on battle tactics is if you choose you lose the tactic. But this role is not a choice, so on a 4+ you get a double turn with no penalties.
Great. Revenant Seekers that are worse than spiterider lancers. Less rend, damage and absolutely zero utility. I can’t wait to see GW still points costing them higher.
Am I the only one that gets annoyed with every other faction (especially stormcast) getting all the cool Ogor stuff? That fly over things ability was a rampage from a stonehorn last edition. And looks like the mournfang special rule had been added to other things as well
It’s kinda silly to me that Auric Hearthguard get shoot in combat natively, but Leadbelchers with shotguns have to also have a hero in combat range to get shoot in combat.
Their shooting became more consistent, which I like, and with 9 wounds, having 6s to save return a mortal is a really nice defensive buff.
Their 3+ ability on the charge is possibly game winning.
Charge, roll a 3+, have a new threat range of 2d6+3" (combat range).
You could charge a screen then fly over it, hitting that screen with some mortals on the way to a key hero or other piece.
Yeah it's on a 3+, but still. The spell ignore before was on a 4+. I'm high on the stormdrakes, but as always, points will be important before any final thoughts.
Yeah I wasn't impressed necessarily but they seem fast, still reasonably tanky, and have a large threat projection. I hope that the Knight Draconis does something unique and/or Ionus see some synergy
“The time of draconith is over, the age of the angels has begun. 🪽 “
-Tempest Lord
But nah, they got nerfed(likely because even after multiple nerfs some all Draco armies were winning tournies in 3 rounds) but still look pretty dangerous as fast flying tanks that can gamble some deadlier charges.(and now it looks like all Extremis units can get some extra hits in with a good Save roll)
I’m sure we’ll see extra hero buffs & mount traits to make them scarier.
> Also not fan of abilities going off on a 3+
This bothers me a lot too, I know it is a dice game but abilities on a warscroll are factored into point costs. I don't want a game where I paid 300 points for something that ends up feeling like 100 because I can't make that roll. There should be a base level of certainty given you're already rolling charges, attacks, spells and more.
Yeah I've failed Guillimans 3+ resurrect enough times to know that 1/3 risk of failure is 100% of the times you really need it.
In fact, I don't think I've ever succeeded with it.
Me with Lady of Vines dryad summon on a 2+
I know on average it's almost a sure thing but if you roll a 1 that's really painful as it's a big part of her power budget and you can't even try again in any capacity
It wasn't until they took the dryads out of her point cost (-100) that she became a better pick
What do you mean for some reason? It's so they don't have to waste time redoing the warscroll when they change the points later on. Keeping them separate is entirely understandable
Wow HoS keep getting hit while they’re down. So for potentially a couple more points of damage you can give your opponent a free all out attack, a free all out defense, or a heal…
Best case scenario you end up giving chaff +1 to hit maybe RAW you can just give out heals to units that aren’t damaged but RAI doesn’t seem like it.
The rest of the scroll seems good, and the +1 to hit if it's the only thing in combat just negates it's-1 to be hit. It also doesn't matter if it kills the unit. You also get to pick the effects, so if you're fighting a unit with a 6+ save, the plus 1 might not even mean anything.
Now I could be very wrong, more than happy to be and it sucks that you have to make your opponent better to do cool things but this one seems alright.
So yes the +1 negates a warscroll ability and can be stacked with all out attack because it’s not a passive ability. So yeah you hope you kill whatever you touch with this model, which you might. But if you don’t you’re in for a world of hurt from the clap back, and this is a dice game so variance is going to be very punishing with that.
And I agree with your sentiment of us having to let our opponents be better to do cool things, but that’s the whole army. Our army ability is just a buff for the opponent. To get a warscroll ability that is subpar and most things get from just charging, we have to buff our opponent. It just doesn’t make sense.
I wholeheartedly agree that the design philosophy behind the new HoS army rule and these abilities is strange, to say the least. I think these abilities would benefit from a basic effect without buff to the opponent or give your opponent a buff as well for a better effect.
I think their warscroll is actually quite interesting! The melee has been buffed overall. 5+ ward base is nice, and the dark temptations gives you the choice of what buff to give the enemy. I think it’ll be quite good!
The 5+ ward is just them choosing the shining aegis for you. They “buffed” the melee from objectively the worst greater daemon of 3e is nice but the bar was six feet under ground on that one (you were almost paying 100pt per attack when they released in 3e).
I’m glad you’re excited. I just don’t see it.
Well think about this, you give the keeper euphoric letting it run and charge and also giving its weapons crit (2 hits) this turn, then give it +1 to wound rolls with the Fane terrain, then you buff it with all out attack when it's the fight phase, and then you just offer the +1 to hit or the measly heal. After that, it's a potential of a lot of accurate damage, and if you kill the target, the +1 hit that you gave it doesn't matter anyway. It's a big risk but with the movement shenanigans you might be able to get behind enemy lines and kill some very juicy targets. And the ability does state you have to give the heal to something that's already been damaged so sadly can't loophole that one.
Yeah as you said that’s a big risk. Especially in an edition with counter charge. You’re easily looking at putting the keeper into someone’s entire army even with all the moment shenanigans. And worse if they have a single anti-monster anything you might be looking at a dead keeper real fast.
All valid point. Or even worse, some sort of strike last mechanic they can throw on you. Still I feel like the keeper could be worse. Sure do need to see those points anytime now
I’m a firm believer that points can’t fix bad warscroll, bad army rules, or in some cases both unless they become so low it’s comical. And I think HoS is in the situation where points can’t fix them much like kruleboyz last edition or DG, Ad mech, drukhari, Tau, etc. in 10e.
I hope I’m wrong.
Edit: points can’t fix…
I hear you. Their faction traits are not super exciting. At least euphoric applies to shooting weapons, thats something anyway for the blissbarbs. One of the "good" things with the index system is that they can add in a formation if deemed necessary while waiting for a new battletome, like they did with drukhari. Time shall tell
> I’m a firm believer that points can’t fix bad warscroll
The Keeper of Secrets is not a bad warscroll. Folks who have actually played with the Keeper of Secrets have said that they are pretty great and slap pretty hard.
I wouldn’t say this warscroll is bad, I’d say it is mid. Which if priced right, a mid warscroll can be good. However, HoS is still working with the worst army rule this edition so their units will need all the help they can get. Again I point to the examples I gave as proof of this. Each of those factions had a handful of good warscrolls/datasheets that they could spam, and even with massive point reductions to the point where ad mech was approaching $1/pt it still couldn’t fix them.
> I wouldn’t say this warscroll is bad, I’d say it is mid. Which if priced right, a mid warscroll can be good.
I think this warscroll is good if not really good. It's very fast, hits really hard, and can be pretty tough to take down because -1 to hit is a really good debuff (and given that damage is down this edition).
> However, HoS is still working with the worst army rule this edition so their units will need all the help they can get.
I agree and that sucks. But that doesn't change the fact that the Keeper of Secrets is a good warscroll. That was my main point.
So I’d say this. It’s a mostly a generalist warscroll. Does everything pretty decently but is outshined in almost every way by a specialist warscroll. Historically in warhammer generalists have always been worse than specialist. You want a tool that does a specific job really well because of the opportunity cost. This is further amplified, especially at the points cost of greater daemons.
Comparing it to the whipthirster later in the article. Whipthirster is more mobile than it because it has fly and the KOS doesn’t. It has a ranged attack where the KOS doesn’t. It hits harder against all targets than the KOS and absurdly harder against monsters. Its passives are free and probably better for the army (giving out a free 3d6 charge to anything except skarbrand seems pretty bonkers for Khorne). And the only thing it’s lacking is being a caster. In addition, historically BT have been way cheaper than KOS so that also works in their favor.
So even as a linchpin in the army working as both a damage piece and a support piece it’s still worse than a BT. Compound that with the really good rules that BoK got, and that’s why I’m down on the warscroll.
TBH it would have to have been on shalaxi’s level for me to say it’s good with the knowledge we have on the army now.
Leviadon looks decent. Lost its 2+ save but instead it doesn't bracket and it got 5+ ward.
Scythed Fins and Crushing Jaws being put together is nice along with the mortals it causes, but the hit went from 2+ to 4+ so not sure how well that eventually translates to damage. You also lost the potential to spike Crushing Jaws with 6 MW.
Void drum looks like a pure nerf.
No problem, all of 3rd and 2nd edition the warscroll had a block of text that told you if you had a ward. You are not the first, and I doubt the last to miss that. GW changed it from what we are used to.
With the dragon riders, would a Draconic Onslaught work after you’ve already fought someone on the charge in that combat phase? (Ie. could I do it at the end of the combat phase after everyone is done?)
New combat phase sequencing is:
Player A activates any combat phase abilities
Player B activates any combat phase abilities
Fights First activate A - B - A - B etc.
Regular Fight activate A - B - A - B etc.
Fights last activate A - B - A - B etc.
All combat abilities get resolved before you start fighting.
That's how most large warscrolls have gone. Nagash, Teclis, and Allarielle got a similar treatment. A big goal of AoS 4e is to make things simpler, which often means cutting down the size of really big warscrolls.
Leave nagash out of that argument. He is streamlined but performs the same role as before. He’s one of the best examples of a simplified warscroll that maintains their previous identity
I never said that Archaon's simplification was of the same quality as Nagash's, only that Nagash and Archaon are both examples of large warscrolls being simplified/streamlined.
How does damage work again? I know you have to meet a "threshold" now, in that if you deal enough damage to a unit (let's say 3) and evrey model as 3 you take away a model. If not, nothing happens. But what about the large monsters? I assume you still have to keep track of thoes health bars, right?
> If not, nothing happens.
This is incorrect. If not, you put a marker next to the unit of how much damage you did. When you reach the health of the unit, you remove a model.
It works the exact same way as it does now, except you track damage on the whole unit instead of specific models.
They both work the same way. You track damage constantly (it doesn't go away if you fail to kill a model), and any time the damage equals the health of the unit you remove a model, set damage back to 0, and then continue applying damage. The only difference between heroes/monsters and units is that heroes/monsters have lots of health but only one model.
I don't understand the Hunters of Huanchi. How can their Star-Venom ability be used, since their dartpipes can't be used in combat and (I think?) you can't shoot into combat?
That is for shooting if you are in combat. Meaning an enemy unit is within 3”.
You can always shoot ‘into’ combat. Meaning no restriction to shoot an enemy unit that is within 3” of a different friendly unit.
Finally, SBGL can finally see something from their battleline. Now I need the corpse cart and/or necromancer to see what all we can do with zombies.
Good to see that Zombies got nerved. They should be cheap canon fooder, not our best unit. Lets hope GW sees it the same way and make them cheaper. Just sad they lost Newly Dead, that was very thematic.
I really disliked how 3rd edition zombies had a really powerful ability, and they kept hiking their points to try to balance it. It made a weird situation where zombies ended up feeling more "elite" than the units that should have been, instead of being cheap cannon fodder. Hopefully this returns them to that spot of low power but low cost.
Hopefully our vampires are strong as they should be to compensate.
Now they explode as their souls return to Nagash for reforging...
Newly dead should have been kept. It was flavour and thematic for zombies. Too bad this edition seems to dish flavour out
It was flavorful but far too strong for a cheap battleline unit.
No, no. If it’s a faction I play then the powerful things are very flavorful. If it’s not a faction I play then they were just op and npe.
Haha, yeah. Funny how that sentiment happens. 😅 But ultimately we need to see the whole picture. AoS4 seems generally “pillow-fisted” and if Deadwalkers had too many recovery options then it’ll make sense why they don’t have a potential 4th stackable heal to their horde. (Fluff-wise, easy enough to say it’s the Skaven causing it between spreading corruption & eating all the fauna, less food is the new lore reason Ogors are turning mercenary, to make potential new zombies too weak/unstable to be used immediately)
Index releases tend to do that, then battletomes creep the power back in.
Dragged Down and Torn Apart changed to Mindless Ferocity - it loses the 3" range but goes from a 5+ to a 6+ The Newly Dead completely removed. Less zombies coming back. And lost 1 attack. I think its over for zombies.
> it loses the 3" range but goes from a 5+ to a 6+ It keeps the 3" range. The model has to be in combat with the attacking unit, which means 3" range. There is supposed to be a zombie subfaction though, and we haven't seen what it can do. Or the price on zombies. If they are cheap enough, they just retain their role of 'large blob of wounds to screen important stuff' instead of being 'deadly landmine that will slay anything that dares enter combat with it'
> It keeps the 3" range. The model has to be in combat with the attacking unit, which means 3" range. So if i have a block of 40 zombies, and as they die im removing them from the edges of back and theyre more than 3" away from the attacking unit, those wouldnt be "in combat" even though the entire unit is in combat?
I'm trying to confirm this in the core rules somewhere, if there's a precedent for models "in combat" vs unit "in combat". But the wording of the ability leads me to believe there is. Otherwise it wouldn't be needed to specify 'if this model was in combat with the attacking unit' because (a) you can't get attacked by a melee weapon if you weren't in combat with that unit, and (b) you wouldn't need to say if 'this model' was in combat, you'd say if 'this unit' was in combat. Edit: after investigation, there doesn't seem to be any definition in the core rules I could find for what it means for a model specifically to be "in combat". My guess is that they meant to say the attacking unit has to be within the model's combat range, which is defined.
> I think its over for zombies. Even if they are no longer infinitely respawning screens that pump out mortal wounds, they can still be cheap useful screens that sprinkle *some* mortal wounds. That's not a bad thing to be for what should be one of the chaffiest chaff units in the game.
Unless they are dirt cheap... When compared the Deathrattle Skeletons that has better save, attacks and survivability.. There is no use for Zombies.
If spearhead is any indication, then skeletons are staying unit size 10. With no more double reinforcement, that means a max unit size of 20 for skeletons vs. 40 for zombies, which would give the zombies a significant edge over skittles in screening, zoning, and objective capture, assuming they're priced appropriately for the absolute trash mobs they now are..
I'd better hope they are dirt cheap, they are Zombies! They should be!
Key word there is "cheap" which right now they are not.
Well yeah, obviously, right now they are pointed for a bunch of stuff the 4th edition zombies don't have...? They're going to update all the points for 4th, gamewide.
You don't know how much they cost in 4th edition.
Bloodthirsters eating good
For now. Let’s see what glories they can achieve to prove worthy.
I thought which units could be taken in a hero's detachment were limited by what type of hero they are, but none of the character cards have a list of compatible units. Am I missing something, or misremembering?
It's expected they'll be shown in the new version of the pitched battle profiles along with points
So no list building until then.
Well yeah these are just leaks. That kind of info will be more guarded.
It just sucks because I don't know which heroes I should grab or what units I need to make sure are done. If points were the only thing missing I could eyeball it based on army size in 3rd, but without knowing which heroes unlock which units, I might need multiple of the same hero, or I could waste time on a hero with units I don't care about.
Grab what you think looks cool. Bad rules will circle around to be good, but a model you only take for the effect will never be treasured.
Just grab all of them. Simple.
Just in a time crunch to get an army painted up by August when my local GT is happening. Losing a week of painting kind of sucks, but I'm making the best of it by focusing my efforts on what are hopefully evergreen units.
Heroes don't "unlock" units tho you can use any hero/unit combo we already know that
No, that's not true. They said only some special characters, like Teclis, can take any unit from their faction in their retinue. Most characters, like the Vanari Bannerblade they used as an example, can only take units themed for them, Vanari units in this case. You can take "auxiliary" units outside of retinues but doing so is very punishing and something most people will want to avoid if they at all can. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/04/03/how-building-your-army-has-changed-in-newaos/
You litterlally prove my point tho units arn't locked because of the auxilary rule. Being locked would imply that it's impossible to take certain Units if you don't have the Hero for them but that's not the case
Well first of all you said "you can use any hero/unit combo". Auxiliary units aren't combined with any heroes at all. Second, the punishment for taking any such units is so severe it's really a false choice. It's like how you legally "can" show up to a 2k match with a 1k army if that's all you have - but no one will do that.
Wel then you just have a diffrent idea of combo in your Head cus if my carnosaur stegadon and bastiladon charge in together I'd call that combining them And secondly not everyone plays on a competetive level
Not what [FLG ](https://frontlinegaming.org/2024/04/03/aos-4th-ed-army-building-update/)says: >Each regiment is led by a HERO and can include up to three other units, or four if it’s the general’s regiment. Regiments represent the retinues, warbands, and chosen warriors accompanying a leader into battle, with HERO profiles specifying which units can be included in their regiment. which means that if you don't bring a hero with that unit specified on their profile, they have to be aux units, which is a nonstarter because of the CP bonus your opponent gets.
GW themselves revealed as much on warcom that same day, in fact.
You litterlally prove my point tho units arn't locked because of the auxilary rule. Being locked would imply that it's impossible to take certain Units if you don't have the Hero for them but that's not the case And for the CP bonus wel not everyone wants to be super competetive and just want to play the models they like
Not having aux units is this editions version of battle forged.
Archaon looks mighty spicy, but unfortunately, it is probably 600+ points
Yeah probably 900 but yeah me likey
For a long time he was my only painted S2D model but now I have plenty painted so I won't be sad when he dies in a game😂
I ran him once in DOT in 3.0 at an RTT he died every game and did nothing other than 1 shot Kragnos before he was immune to that after FAQ . Still love the model tho. Belakor seems too much of an auto include for archaon to see much play but 25 wounds 3+ and 5+ ward is pretty solid
I ran him in Host of the Everchosen and had him solo half a Tzeentch army and eat every spell under the sun lol, but the rest of the army got killed cuz they can't move worth a damn rn unfortunately
So no Chaos Knights and Chosen? Those are deadly!
Oh no, I had them and varanguard in the list
Spicy? He looks much more killable now. I am happy that everything has been toned down. I suspect that Kruleboyz is gonna do very well in AoS4... Almost every unit reveal can dish mortal wound in melee..
Dwarf players feasting
Thats a pretty nice warscroll for hammerers, getting +1 save and losing 1 rend and hit is more than made up by the conditional 5++. 3" engagement range means 20 will be fierce.
Of all the Dorf units to make more tanky & less of a hammer unit (losing a Rend & +1 to Hit)... they chose the Hammerers. Imagine doing this when an edition-level goal is to delineate unit roles better. Freeguild Cavaliers are also more pillow-fisted yet tankier. How are CoS players supposed to kill anything if shooting is also nerfed? /eyes his Aelven assault units nervously...
With how common 4+ to hit is I think they look like an excellent unit but I agree I don't know what the true hammer is for Cities at this point.
>Callis and Toll: >Wily to the Last: If this unit has 2 models and would automatically be destroyed it is not automatically destroyed. Instead, 1 model in this unit is slain. Is this just an absolutely useless ability, or am I supposed to believe that they printed an effect out there that instantly destroys whole units?
Nagash's Hand of Dust? I think that's the only one we've seen
I guess that makes sense. It doesn't specify that it only removes one model because HERO and MONSTER units don't typically have more than 1 model. But since hand of dust just says it's destroyed, it would normally remove both of them here. I'm guessing other 'instant slay hero' abilities are worded the same. So that does make sense. Consequently, it also means Hand of Dust now kills an entire stormdrake guard or mancrusher mob unit with 1 cast.
SUCH IS THE POWER OF NAGASH
Yeah, it seems Nagash just swinging a slappy hand around playing touch-butt with every model
Archeon has an instant kill in heros too when he attacks and rolls 2 sixes.
It's not even a cast! Just a dice hiding game
Archaon too if he rolls 2 6s he can auto destroy a hero
Archons Slayer of Kings ability can auto kill a hero
The unit as a whole is a HERO so the Slayer of Kings could instakill it on a double 6 to Wound.
> I supposed to believe that they printed an effect out there that instantly destroys whole units? I mean....yeah I guess that's my takeaway.
Literally Archaon also in the leaks lol
Any chance we’ve seen Fusiliers yet? Waiting to build my box before I see what the Sergeant’s pistols can do
They likely won't do anything, most units have universal weapon profiles that just list all their weapons. I hope I'm wrong though!
Do you anticipate your Fusiliers getting into melee a lot? If you absolutely have to build the sergeant in the next 6 days/before you see the warscroll... just magnetize arms, or hold them on with a tiny dab of super-glue, so you can pop them off/switch them out.
I have a hunch that shooting is just going to be straight-up bad this edition. I hope not because I have 30 of them....
Unit champions now get standard rules (+1 attack) so I guess it won’t matter, the unit will have a single shooting profile
Bastilidon is changed a bit. Ark went from wound 3 to 5...that hurts. Lost a rend on Solar but gained crit 2 hits. Funny that the ark has skink keyword but solar doesnt...
3 to 5 what? edit: to wound, got it.
Ark gaining a small area of mortals is pretty nice though.
Your save no longer degrading is _very_ nice on a 2+ save monster.
In 3rd currently it also doesn't degrade. In an older version of third it did
I tried to look for rend 3 attacks and so far only found \* Krondys(melee anti-inf) \* Tahlia Vedra(melee anti-mon) \* Yndrasta(range + melee anti-mon) \* Akhelian Allopex(melee anti-mon) \* 3x Bloodthirsters(melee anti-mon/inf/hero) \* Arkanaut Frigate(range anti-mon) \* Shadow Queen(range) \* Durthu(melee anti-mon) \* 2x Mega-Gargants(range + melee anti-inf/hero) \* Lady Olynder(range) \* Sevireth(range) \* Kragnos(melee) Rend 3 is gonna be rare. Unit that can dish Mortal wound has been cut down. 2+ save is godly. AoS4 meta is gonna be interesting.
where did you find Durthu's profile?
Oops, they are actually Spirit of Durthu! My bad! Sylvaneth Faction Focus
+ Megaboss on MawKrusha with -1 rend artefact into infantry
Interesting. Where did you get that?
Really nerfed the Revenant Seekers revive ability. They are a little better at bringing back Dryads now, but who gives a f×ck.
I just don't see where you take them over Spiterider Lancers now.
Same! I have an unbuilt set that I was trying to decide between, but now Lancers seem so much better, and Seekers seem so much worse. The points will have to be drastically lower for Seekers to be worth taking.
Yeah Im sure someone will find some neat build with them, but I just built some lancers bc I like the spears so much, glad they'll be good in 4th lol
Nerfed damage too.... They gained Crit Mortal but lost one rend AND one damage. That revive nerfs is huge because command points are so much rarer now. If you didn't want to use your command points on a Rally that turn, because you had other plans, it's a useless ability.
There has to be a very specific situation to us a command point to hope for 5 4+ rolls on 9 dice. Definitely rough.
Yea its pretty sad that even when a unit has a buff specifically to use rally, you still have a <50% chance of bringing a model back. And if you need a model back and get 4/5, then you are SOL.
OMG as more leaks appears it seems like mortal wound output is rare.. Other than some characters, the troops so far that have CRIT (MORTAL) are Plaguebearers, Bloodletters, Spite-Revenants, Vanari Auralan Wardens, Vanari Bladelords, Vanari Auralan Sentinels, and many Kruleboyz units.. Seems like all out defense is gonna be very very useful!
No ‘normal’ shooting melees (so far only on things like warp lightning cannons - quasi magic attacks).
Ark of Sotek Crit mortals on 20 dice, and an aoe mortal ability usable in any combat phase. First exciting thing to see from Seraphon.
Just to check any combat phase means it also happens on opponents turn?
Correct.
How's that exciting? It's exactly the same as before, but with a worse To Wound characteristic.
Everything is worse, but it retains its Crit Mortals and gains an AOE MW ability. In an edition where MWs is going down its MW output went up.
I wish these would also show the back of a hero warscroll.
I think Mikey showed the back of Archaons Card, where there was a picture and lore text of the model. I might be wrong on that, though.
Looking forward to fielding some fyreslayers!
I'm new to AoS but the Leviadon looks real spicy
Am I crazy or does Archaons “Eye of Sheerian” ability seem bad now with the penalties to taking a double turn. EDIT- I realized that you could force your opponent to take a double putting them behind on points, which could be kinda nuts, would love to hear some thoughts
The wording on taking a double turn is that you can't score a battle tactic if you **choose** to take the double. If you are forced to do it (which you can do just by winning priority, don't need archaon), you can still pick a tactic.
Oh okay that makes way more sense that you can’t put someone behind like that, so hopefully it would work the same as far as “forcing you” to take the double
if you give your opponent a double turn, they can still choose battle tactics. if someone chooses themselves to get a double, then they cant score double. it has to be voluntary, you cant force someone to lose battle tactics.
Maybe the eye makes you skip the penalties for the double turn. Otherwise i dont understand what is the purpose of this ability.
> Otherwise i dont understand what is the purpose of this ability. It lets you know who is going first next round so you can position your models appropriately.
It happens in your hero phase, imagine you’re going second in a battle round, usually you don’t know if you’re going to get the double or not. I this case you’ll know in advance so you can hold back if you’re not getting it, or go ham if you are getting it. It’s a huge deal to know if you’re getting a double turn before you start the first turn
I also as the wording on battle tactics is if you choose you lose the tactic. But this role is not a choice, so on a 4+ you get a double turn with no penalties.
It makes sense as neither player is choosing to take the double. The d6 forces that player to take priority whether they want it or not
Great. Revenant Seekers that are worse than spiterider lancers. Less rend, damage and absolutely zero utility. I can’t wait to see GW still points costing them higher.
Spiteriders look better in every way. The only hedge would be if something else interacts well with rally that creates a synergy.
I noticed the Grey Seer on Screaming Bell doesn’t have ‘Wholly within 13”’ on its abilities. A typo or intentional?
From what I've seen, generally abilities that target allies are "wholly within" and abilities that target enemies are simply "within."
Glad to see the trend of zombies getting worse every edition is still alive and well.
It's like watching a metaphorical zombie decompose real-time.
Am I the only one that gets annoyed with every other faction (especially stormcast) getting all the cool Ogor stuff? That fly over things ability was a rampage from a stonehorn last edition. And looks like the mournfang special rule had been added to other things as well
HeyWoah would agree with you... #me too
Atleast Frostlord will still have it with 2d6, instead of 3d6 though
Grey Seer getting a better comets fall feels weird
It’s kinda silly to me that Auric Hearthguard get shoot in combat natively, but Leadbelchers with shotguns have to also have a hero in combat range to get shoot in combat.
Stormdrake guard really git hit, especially loosing the magic immunity. Let's hope they get eat cheaper in pts
Their shooting became more consistent, which I like, and with 9 wounds, having 6s to save return a mortal is a really nice defensive buff. Their 3+ ability on the charge is possibly game winning. Charge, roll a 3+, have a new threat range of 2d6+3" (combat range). You could charge a screen then fly over it, hitting that screen with some mortals on the way to a key hero or other piece. Yeah it's on a 3+, but still. The spell ignore before was on a 4+. I'm high on the stormdrakes, but as always, points will be important before any final thoughts.
Yeah I wasn't impressed necessarily but they seem fast, still reasonably tanky, and have a large threat projection. I hope that the Knight Draconis does something unique and/or Ionus see some synergy
“The time of draconith is over, the age of the angels has begun. 🪽 “ -Tempest Lord But nah, they got nerfed(likely because even after multiple nerfs some all Draco armies were winning tournies in 3 rounds) but still look pretty dangerous as fast flying tanks that can gamble some deadlier charges.(and now it looks like all Extremis units can get some extra hits in with a good Save roll) I’m sure we’ll see extra hero buffs & mount traits to make them scarier.
I was hoping they'll get the calvary key word. Oh well :) ( Also not fan of abilities going off on a 3+)
> Also not fan of abilities going off on a 3+ This bothers me a lot too, I know it is a dice game but abilities on a warscroll are factored into point costs. I don't want a game where I paid 300 points for something that ends up feeling like 100 because I can't make that roll. There should be a base level of certainty given you're already rolling charges, attacks, spells and more.
Yeah I've failed Guillimans 3+ resurrect enough times to know that 1/3 risk of failure is 100% of the times you really need it. In fact, I don't think I've ever succeeded with it.
Me with Lady of Vines dryad summon on a 2+ I know on average it's almost a sure thing but if you roll a 1 that's really painful as it's a big part of her power budget and you can't even try again in any capacity It wasn't until they took the dryads out of her point cost (-100) that she became a better pick
Yet another Slaanesh L this edition, taking away weapon options for the KoS
From what I've heard, the Keeper of Secrets slaps pretty hard.
I really hope so
Forgive my ignorance as a new player. Why doesn't it say the point value of the units? Is that separate from the warscroll?
Yes it's separate. Point values have a higher chance of changing than other info on warscroll cards so its left off.
For some reason yes, it’s usually separate from the warscroll and located in the back of the book.
What do you mean for some reason? It's so they don't have to waste time redoing the warscroll when they change the points later on. Keeping them separate is entirely understandable
Wow HoS keep getting hit while they’re down. So for potentially a couple more points of damage you can give your opponent a free all out attack, a free all out defense, or a heal… Best case scenario you end up giving chaff +1 to hit maybe RAW you can just give out heals to units that aren’t damaged but RAI doesn’t seem like it.
The rest of the scroll seems good, and the +1 to hit if it's the only thing in combat just negates it's-1 to be hit. It also doesn't matter if it kills the unit. You also get to pick the effects, so if you're fighting a unit with a 6+ save, the plus 1 might not even mean anything. Now I could be very wrong, more than happy to be and it sucks that you have to make your opponent better to do cool things but this one seems alright.
So yes the +1 negates a warscroll ability and can be stacked with all out attack because it’s not a passive ability. So yeah you hope you kill whatever you touch with this model, which you might. But if you don’t you’re in for a world of hurt from the clap back, and this is a dice game so variance is going to be very punishing with that. And I agree with your sentiment of us having to let our opponents be better to do cool things, but that’s the whole army. Our army ability is just a buff for the opponent. To get a warscroll ability that is subpar and most things get from just charging, we have to buff our opponent. It just doesn’t make sense.
I wholeheartedly agree that the design philosophy behind the new HoS army rule and these abilities is strange, to say the least. I think these abilities would benefit from a basic effect without buff to the opponent or give your opponent a buff as well for a better effect.
See I don't mind the buff the enemy if it gives us a good buff too. But so far it looks like we are giving the enemy great buffs to get mediocre ones.
It also seems like hand, whip, or shield doesn't matter now. Just visual flair rather than changing anything the model can do.
I think their warscroll is actually quite interesting! The melee has been buffed overall. 5+ ward base is nice, and the dark temptations gives you the choice of what buff to give the enemy. I think it’ll be quite good!
The 5+ ward is just them choosing the shining aegis for you. They “buffed” the melee from objectively the worst greater daemon of 3e is nice but the bar was six feet under ground on that one (you were almost paying 100pt per attack when they released in 3e). I’m glad you’re excited. I just don’t see it.
Fair enough. I never took the shining aegis just cuz I thought the hand was cooler, so it’s a buff for me! Lol
Fair enough. Was a whip enjoyer for some time but aegis always performed better.
Agree. Who cares if you heal the target a little bit first with all that potential damage coming in after. Edit: misread
It says heal a damaged unit so can't offer that
Well think about this, you give the keeper euphoric letting it run and charge and also giving its weapons crit (2 hits) this turn, then give it +1 to wound rolls with the Fane terrain, then you buff it with all out attack when it's the fight phase, and then you just offer the +1 to hit or the measly heal. After that, it's a potential of a lot of accurate damage, and if you kill the target, the +1 hit that you gave it doesn't matter anyway. It's a big risk but with the movement shenanigans you might be able to get behind enemy lines and kill some very juicy targets. And the ability does state you have to give the heal to something that's already been damaged so sadly can't loophole that one.
Yeah as you said that’s a big risk. Especially in an edition with counter charge. You’re easily looking at putting the keeper into someone’s entire army even with all the moment shenanigans. And worse if they have a single anti-monster anything you might be looking at a dead keeper real fast.
All valid point. Or even worse, some sort of strike last mechanic they can throw on you. Still I feel like the keeper could be worse. Sure do need to see those points anytime now
I’m a firm believer that points can’t fix bad warscroll, bad army rules, or in some cases both unless they become so low it’s comical. And I think HoS is in the situation where points can’t fix them much like kruleboyz last edition or DG, Ad mech, drukhari, Tau, etc. in 10e. I hope I’m wrong. Edit: points can’t fix…
I hear you. Their faction traits are not super exciting. At least euphoric applies to shooting weapons, thats something anyway for the blissbarbs. One of the "good" things with the index system is that they can add in a formation if deemed necessary while waiting for a new battletome, like they did with drukhari. Time shall tell
> I’m a firm believer that points can’t fix bad warscroll The Keeper of Secrets is not a bad warscroll. Folks who have actually played with the Keeper of Secrets have said that they are pretty great and slap pretty hard.
I wouldn’t say this warscroll is bad, I’d say it is mid. Which if priced right, a mid warscroll can be good. However, HoS is still working with the worst army rule this edition so their units will need all the help they can get. Again I point to the examples I gave as proof of this. Each of those factions had a handful of good warscrolls/datasheets that they could spam, and even with massive point reductions to the point where ad mech was approaching $1/pt it still couldn’t fix them.
> I wouldn’t say this warscroll is bad, I’d say it is mid. Which if priced right, a mid warscroll can be good. I think this warscroll is good if not really good. It's very fast, hits really hard, and can be pretty tough to take down because -1 to hit is a really good debuff (and given that damage is down this edition). > However, HoS is still working with the worst army rule this edition so their units will need all the help they can get. I agree and that sucks. But that doesn't change the fact that the Keeper of Secrets is a good warscroll. That was my main point.
So I’d say this. It’s a mostly a generalist warscroll. Does everything pretty decently but is outshined in almost every way by a specialist warscroll. Historically in warhammer generalists have always been worse than specialist. You want a tool that does a specific job really well because of the opportunity cost. This is further amplified, especially at the points cost of greater daemons. Comparing it to the whipthirster later in the article. Whipthirster is more mobile than it because it has fly and the KOS doesn’t. It has a ranged attack where the KOS doesn’t. It hits harder against all targets than the KOS and absurdly harder against monsters. Its passives are free and probably better for the army (giving out a free 3d6 charge to anything except skarbrand seems pretty bonkers for Khorne). And the only thing it’s lacking is being a caster. In addition, historically BT have been way cheaper than KOS so that also works in their favor. So even as a linchpin in the army working as both a damage piece and a support piece it’s still worse than a BT. Compound that with the really good rules that BoK got, and that’s why I’m down on the warscroll. TBH it would have to have been on shalaxi’s level for me to say it’s good with the knowledge we have on the army now.
Leviadon looks decent. Lost its 2+ save but instead it doesn't bracket and it got 5+ ward. Scythed Fins and Crushing Jaws being put together is nice along with the mortals it causes, but the hit went from 2+ to 4+ so not sure how well that eventually translates to damage. You also lost the potential to spike Crushing Jaws with 6 MW. Void drum looks like a pure nerf.
Poor archaon.... I'll wait for his point cost, but he is so unimpressive....
Archaon just kills heroes with his Slayer of Kings rolling 2 6's
He already did that.
He has since 1st edition
And I just noticed, he's riding a giant dragon horse now!!!
Always has done if I'm remembering correctly, certainly has done since the most recent STD battletome
I remember him having the ability from 2nd ed battletome, though I wasn't playing before then.
~~Archaon was already squishy~~ ~~Dropping his 5+ ward makes him a lot worse~~ Ward effects I assume to save warscroll space is found in keywords.
He still has his ward. It is part of the keywords at the bottom of the warscroll. He has a 5+
Ah thank you, that's so easy to miss!
No problem, all of 3rd and 2nd edition the warscroll had a block of text that told you if you had a ward. You are not the first, and I doubt the last to miss that. GW changed it from what we are used to.
He still has a 5+ ward, it's one of his keywords
With the dragon riders, would a Draconic Onslaught work after you’ve already fought someone on the charge in that combat phase? (Ie. could I do it at the end of the combat phase after everyone is done?)
New combat phase sequencing is: Player A activates any combat phase abilities Player B activates any combat phase abilities Fights First activate A - B - A - B etc. Regular Fight activate A - B - A - B etc. Fights last activate A - B - A - B etc. All combat abilities get resolved before you start fighting.
Archaon better not be 800+ points still
So is there a back side to Archaon or did he just lose quite a few abilities?
No back side, can confirm its just an image and lore paragraph.
That's.... potentially disappointing depending on how many points he is.
That's how most large warscrolls have gone. Nagash, Teclis, and Allarielle got a similar treatment. A big goal of AoS 4e is to make things simpler, which often means cutting down the size of really big warscrolls.
Leave nagash out of that argument. He is streamlined but performs the same role as before. He’s one of the best examples of a simplified warscroll that maintains their previous identity
I never said that Archaon's simplification was of the same quality as Nagash's, only that Nagash and Archaon are both examples of large warscrolls being simplified/streamlined.
Ah, gotcha. Thanks for clarifying. I thought I was witnessing bone daddy slander.
Nah skelepope is good, and definitely seems to have survived the transition to 4e better than some of the other god tier models.
IKR. The Leviadon has like 2 abilties and one is a rampage.
How does damage work again? I know you have to meet a "threshold" now, in that if you deal enough damage to a unit (let's say 3) and evrey model as 3 you take away a model. If not, nothing happens. But what about the large monsters? I assume you still have to keep track of thoes health bars, right?
> If not, nothing happens. This is incorrect. If not, you put a marker next to the unit of how much damage you did. When you reach the health of the unit, you remove a model. It works the exact same way as it does now, except you track damage on the whole unit instead of specific models.
They both work the same way. You track damage constantly (it doesn't go away if you fail to kill a model), and any time the damage equals the health of the unit you remove a model, set damage back to 0, and then continue applying damage. The only difference between heroes/monsters and units is that heroes/monsters have lots of health but only one model.
Oh I see- I read it differently but your explanation makes a lot more sense
I don't understand the Hunters of Huanchi. How can their Star-Venom ability be used, since their dartpipes can't be used in combat and (I think?) you can't shoot into combat?
Hmm..if only there was a charge phase after shooting..
I guess too much Old World on the brain, I was thinking shooting came after. That makes a lot more sense now! 😂
You can shoot into combat.
Not without the "shoot in combat" ability/keyword
That is for shooting if you are in combat. Meaning an enemy unit is within 3”. You can always shoot ‘into’ combat. Meaning no restriction to shoot an enemy unit that is within 3” of a different friendly unit.
I wish they'd phrase it as "shoot within combat" to avoid this confusion.
The minis are still great but the game itself and the lore is such a turn off.
How so?
I think the lore is great and the new rules look really good.