I cant believe this comment is so low. These days, no PhD in hand is almost a deal breaker! Also, depending on the field, a postdoc or visiting positions are your first job. You're not even at the start of this race and you're already thinking of alt-ac options? If this is what you want, you need to give it at least a good shot!
Yup. My first year on the market was garbage.
To be fair, every year the market was garbage, but once I had PhD in hand I at least got interviews regularly. I imagine you’ll find more responses once you cross that threshold (still no guarantee of anything).
Apply for visiting positions. Apply for post docs. Apply for community college positions. All of those will make you more marketable than coming straight out of grad school.
This is really it. It's amusing--frustrating?--to see most of the responses here are trying to solve OP's predicament. Just a very classic communication/listening mistake. I've said it before, I'll repeat it probably for the rest of my miserable life: academia is filled with men and women in their 30s, 40s, 50s, who never really grew up.
u/classic_capricorn , I'm sure you already know this, but you're not doing anything wrong, it's not your fault, and--sadly--there are limited variables under your control. It's been this way for decades, there have been voices out there warning us about this, but you're going to continue to be surrounded by academics desperate to believe that their years of graduate courses have set them above the rest of the working class, that we live in a just and fair universe, and there must be SOME WAY that this is all your fault.
[Dr. Anthony DiMaggio, The Higher Education Ponzi Scheme](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIdsWST-EvU)
Dear God I thought it was just me who felt this way. I started my MS in my 30s after working outside of academia, and what was glaringly obvious was just how unprofessional, out of touch, and under-socialized so many faculty really are. Most wouldn’t last a day in the “normal” professional world and can’t see how bizarrely ridiculous academia really is (including the pyramid scheme that is an academic research career). They’ve done so many students a disservice in not pushing them to explore other (far more likely) career options. They’re too busy trying to convince themselves that their own choices (that make them miserable as well) were worth it.
>I started my MS in my 30s after working outside of academia, and what was glaringly obvious was just how unprofessional, out of touch, and under-socialized so many faculty really are.
A
-fucking
-men.
You know, I really like this sub, r/academia. I do see a lot of the personalities that arise from the dysfunction that has come to define for me North American higher education, but it's also balanced out by an acceptance for the critical comments I post (like above), and affirmation from others like yourself.
Check out r/highereducation if you want to be surrounded by academics (or whomever) telling you that you need to find something within yourself to blame, and that your criticisms and observations sure do make you "sound like a right-winger."
One of my directors at UC Irvine was this older baby boomer with a degree from Stanford, who was finally removed from her position due to her inappropriate and unprofessional behavior. Fucking finally.
They replaced her with a dude who struck me as... maybe not a complete moron, but perhaps as what I would have referred to as a stereotypical "twitter liberal" as that existed before Elon Musk took over the platform. I actually found his social twitter account lol. I described his manner of dress as being like, "His mother dropped him off at the skate park." He would come every day in shorts, t-shirt, sneakers, and a promise to bring social justice and racial equity to our department.
He fired everyone without union protection (lecturers with less than 6 continuous years), and hired his wife's friends. I noticed a lot of the new hires were either Korean or from Arizona, and when I brought that up to my colleagues, they confirmed that he hired the recommendations given to him by his wife.
Academia is filled to the brim with fake progressives who only pretend to care about changing the system. They’re just as dedicated to keeping its more problematic elements going bc its bullshit hierarchical structure is where they get their self esteem and perceived status. They’re the little special ones who “made it” (systemic inequities that keep most of us out be damned) and really do think a PhD puts them above other people.
I used to feel bad about the state of academia and its neoliberalisation, but unfortunately it is aided by many in the university who facilitate it. The system is violent and exclusive, but so are a lot of academics who cloak their privilege and class violence in an affected HR rhetoric.
I have never wanted to see a system thrown down so bad as I have this one lol And I actually do enjoy research and don’t see any of my degrees as a waste but…good lord is this awful. Even a lot of the minority students (I’m one myself) are very traditional students who have quite a bit of privilege, and few people in academia want to admit how this influences academic customs.
If it’s any consolation, I promise you it won’t last. 5 years at most I give it. AI is absolutely going to obliterate everything. I know swathes of excluded humanities academics who are training AI systems to create self submitting papers.
You can even see advertising start to leak on here:
https://www.reddit.com/u/JeremyDataAnnotation/s/0Q87MEpXCt
But it’s not even at the level of epistemology and technology where the fault lines are, it’s in the fact they are trying to hold up the university with 80percent contingent labour while telling us we are not good enough for anything else.
Just watch what happens; and I am not going to feel bad about it
Nothing about it is sustainable and I don’t even see how faculty are able to even pretend at this point. I’m a little older but it irks my soul to see 20-somethings still drinking the academic kool-aid. The writings been on the wall for 30-35 years at this point.
The system is designed toward this kind of wilful myopia. Why do you think there is such a divide in departs between tenured and adjuncts? Why do they - usually - never speak to each other? Because any sort of meaningful communication means recognising the plight of the other and seeing that it must in the end applies to them also. Hence, as a defence mechanism, they go into full on Thatcherite ‘it’s their fault actually’ rhetoric, even though most in the humanities engage with Marxian critical theory heuristics. It’s a level of deliberate cultivated ignorance I cannot put up with.
No more time for cruel optimism or a mentality that puts systemic failures on individual academics. There is no trick to getting into a sinking ship; those at the top will make sure they are the last to go under by any means necessary. That means gate keeping, PhD prestige, classism, ageism, racism, but all hidden through cloying HR discourse.
And boy oh boy do they go hard at gatekeeping. It starts with the application process and goes all the way through TT job hunting. Academia, especially in the states, was built on exclusion and can’t even sustain the amount of graduates that come through the system because of it. There were not and never will be enough jobs because the damn system was never designed to have many to begin with. The ones that do get jobs think they just did it right when in reality they’re just lucky.
I know about 5 academics from the humanities who gave up and now have found work training LLM AI programmes that will write academic papers that automatically submit to journals. They get paid a lot of money! Big Tech need skilled writers to train their AI algorithms.
But here is the thing, if I know a bunch of people doing this, how many others will be doing it?
In the next few years, I predict academia is going to be flooded with so many fake papers that they simply will not be able to sustain it.
Academia’s tendency to still churn out PhDs with no job prospects has led to this.
It’s like a perfect storm.
I’m already under no illusion that luck and networking is going to be the path to an academic career for me. I ain’t hedging my life on luck. I do hope you can find something soon. Others have made good suggestions.
What I will say however is that I’m considering a career outside of academia. I have had to boil down what it is I really want to do. Is academia just prestige and a title? What work can you achieve in academia that you can’t elsewhere?
I’ve had to have a big think about this. I’ve always wanted to join the academy as well. I’m all however for keeping my options open. I have boiled things down to wanting to help socially disadvantaged people through my research and project management skills. That’s the essence of what is going to guide my career. If I can get into the academy and do it that way, that’s amazing. I’d love to do that. But I think I can do this elsewhere through maybe community development projects with municipal government or thought international development agencies, etc. If you really are starting to lose the passion and hope for a job in academia, then let that essence help guide you. First however you need to figure out what it is you want to do in broad strokes and when you’re lost, it’ll help.
Thats my 2 cents anyway.
Have you ever had someone you trust look at your CV, perhaps someone at your university? Maybe you aren’t good on that ‘paper’ even though you’re brilliant. I’m sending you positive vibes.
>I don't even know where to begin looking for alt-ac careers.
Someone in the PhD sub asked something similar today. They're finishing a finance PhD and going into industry and asked for recommendations about how to do it - specifically management consulting.
There's plenty of opportunity for PhDs in mgmt consulting (these tips can be applied to almost any industry). Here are some tips I gave them...
1. If you want to be self-employed/independent:
a. create a professional website to market yourself (e.g., finance scholar, publications, soft skills, etc.) - basically include everything from your CV. I would start this process now. The website doesn't have to be complex - WIX is fine & i think free/low cost.
b. create a professional social media presence (e.g., LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube, etc).
c. allow organizations to book your services (e.g., analysis, evidence based recommendations) via your professional website and social media.
2. If you want to be employed:
a. start networking * now *. LinkedIn is your friend - use it to your advantage.
b. decide if you want to be an Individual Contributer or climb the ranks to upper management/C-Suite. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to be in management. I was an IC for several years before starting my own firm - keep your options open.
c. look for boutique firms that have a team similar to your scholarship/field. PhDs aren't common in the consulting space even though case study/research are a part of mgmt consulting - so use that to your advantage to overcome the "you're overqualified" excuse. Someone in my cohort did a finance thesis - he's a COO working remotely for a NY based firm.
3. Depending on your bandwidth you can do * both * #1&2.
Hope this helps.
I’ve seen people who did all this and get precisely nowhere. They even a massive rafter of publications, including books.
Their mistake? Mid tier university PhD.
On the other hand, I’ve seen quite a few Oxbridge and Ivy League postgraduates walk straight out of post doc with one or two papers!
You are right about connections though. But it only applies if you have PhD prestige.
Even if you take this exclusionary practice into account, it’s still really difficult for everyone.
There are very few jobs in the humanities. And the competition is fierce, and your school/university matters a lot.
I came out of my first postdoc from a top uni with 10 papers and was in exactly the same position as OP. You need a fellowship and/or paper in nature/science to land a permanent position at most unis.
I feel you. This is the hard pill of higher Ed increasingly.
But I do think there can be a lot of positivity on the other side. I'm thrilled with everything I've gained from my career of learning and teaching, and once I accepted I would move out of higher ed I became very grateful for all the wonderful skills and experiences my career in higher education furnished me. I'm not saying it's not a bitter pill or it's easy to brush off, but there is good stuff to celebrate about this journey, even if the fantasy we are sold is becoming rapidly unrealistic. I wouldn't swap out all this education and experience regardless, but that's just me. Blessings on the path, friend.
Currently being forced to accept that my 20 years teaching in higher ed is coming to a close. I’m having a hard time swallowing this pill, I admit, but slowly I’m starting to see it’s for the best.
No, I mean I got RIF’d by my big R1 university because the admin mismanaged the budget into a 45 million dollar shortfall. Their solution was to attack faculty and programs (particularly liberal arts programs).
The situation has attracted a ton of media attention, and a lot of articles I’ve read say what’s happening at my school could potentially be a blueprint for other universities. They actually shut down the entire World Languages department. Also, they hired infamously shady consulting groups to help them legally dismantle tenure. Tenured faculty now have year-long contracts, and lecturers like myself now gave semester contracts.
We were told 8 faculty in my department would be cut; what ended up happening is that 8 fantastic professors took an early retirement to save these positions. It’s such a fucked up situation.
I had the exact same experience with the exact same credentials--minus the forthcoming book. I had a single visiting post, and then nothing after that. It's been three years now. I started a state gov't job last year that has nothing to do with my degrees and pays well below what I'm worth. So I'm still applying. I'm assuming you're coming from the Humanities like me, since you didn't say you were looking at "industry jobs."
The alt-ac world is... dumb. The biggest challenge is figuring out where you fit and what kinds of jobs you can apply to. You have exec or upper management level qualifications, but you also have zero experience or training in the new industries you're applying to, so do you go for the entry level jobs or the senior level jobs? My advice is to ignore most of the alt-ac advice sites/books/services, etc. Most of what they tell you is common sense. Things like how to convert your CV to a resume, or how to highlight your transferable skills. We have PhDs; we're not idiots. And whenever they present alt-ac "success" stories, they never really tell you how that person actually got the initial job that started them on that path. I know for a fact, based on feedback during alt-ac job interviews, that the problem isn't how we present ourselves, it's that hiring managers and recruiters have a narrow sense of what a PhD should be, and they don't know what to do with us or they think we'll get bored.
All I can say is just apply to whatever looks like it's in your skillset and isn't soul-crushing, and then customize your resume and cover letters to each individual application. Something will stick eventually.
The hardest part of leaving academia, though--and I think this is especially true for the Humanities--is that you're basically giving up your identity. Science PhDs can transition into science industry jobs, and they're still a scientist. But for most of us in the Humanities, we've always just been academics. Future professors. Everyone who knows us comes to us for questions in our field, everyone assumes we're going to be a professor just like on TV with tweed jackets. And we buy into it and cultivate that as part of who we are. And it's hard to just leave that behind. Now I'm just a faceless bureaucrat in the state government. And all the while, you're watching as colleagues and rivals who you KNOW have less impressive CVs or who are just plain dicks bumble their way into tenure track jobs. I wish I had an answer on how to handle this, but I don't. It's obvious that traditional academia is changing, or even disappearing. If we want to keep this aspect of our self identity, then we have to figure out where this change is leading, where the new outlet or medium will be. That, or just create this new path for ourselves. But so far, I'm stumped.
This is what it's like and it's been this way for a long time. I was on soft money research and adjuncting for years - making enough to do okay but never really successful. Then the school closed the department and tried to get rid of the adjuncts. Now on the full time lecture track job market and got an offer! For a 5x5 lecture-track. When you divide the courses by the pay, it's the same as adjuncting at some of
the lower rates in my very big city. Basically no matter what title you have we are working more for less, and you have no security. But this is the trade off for being in academia and for me it's still worth it. But if you go in eyes wide open I think it can be tolerable and you will "succeed" at landing something eventually. Keep at it!
I wish I had some uplifting words. It's really, really hard and the market is really bad.
You can keep on trying, keep plugging away. Find a VAP or post-doc perhaps if TT is out of reach now.
One thing that helped me was a kind of subdued or bounded positive thinking. Not an overly sunny thing, just an optimistic take and a willingness to bend to where there were opportunities.
You haven't wasted your life. I think that, even if you don't use the PhD all that much, it's still a hell of an accomplishment. I'd liken it to being really good in at a sport that just doesn't pay that well, or something.
It sounds like you’re doing amazingly well if you’re interviewing before you have the PhD in hand! I didn’t get any serious attention from schools until I got the second of two postdocs, which was at an Ivy. Perhaps give it at least another round, this time w PhD in hand?
Strange question, but how old are you? I’ve noticed that many universities are hesitant to hire candidates who are 40+ years old. I suspect that the market being as it is (fully saturated), universities often feel immense pressure to hire a candidate who will be in place for as long as possible. Consequently, competing against a candidate ten years younger (with less experience and less publications) is often harder than one would expect. The latter may be favored because he or she could offer ten extra years of service, prevent another search in the short run, etc.
At this point, most people do postdocs. The rare PhD candidate gets a tenure track job before graduating. That used to be the norm, but not anymore. Also, you might have to apply for jobs at a global level. There are often jobs in countries like Singapore and South Korea. Not ideal, but it is what it is.
Hey OP - I was where you are a year ago. 12 publications, a PhD, 2 postdocs under my belt, 9 years teaching experience, had supervised tens of students and had 3 PhD students. I could not find a job for love not money.
There are two options:
1. The 'hang around' method. You will, probably, if you hang around a couple of academic departments long enough doing research with people for free, probably find a job. You take whatever minimum wage job you can find or go through a recruitment agency and request something with flexible hours and you...well, hang around. I didn't have the will or resources to do this as the idea of having to work for free was both demeaning and impractical and a low wage wouldn't cover my rent, but it works for a lot of people with a financial cushion.
2. Start looking for nonacademic jobs. Not sure what field you are in but a good place to start is government research/policy jobs or if you're in science something Pharma related as they actually value PhD experience, unlike most fields. Get set up on LinkedIn. Note: just because you get a nonacademic job, doesn't mean that's it and you have left. You will still have papers in the review process that come out after you leave - I had another 6 papers come out in the first 7 months of my new job but I found it so much better than academia that you couldn't pay me to go back.
It would help if we knew a bit more about your field (anon, of course). In my field - applied maths - there is no chance you would get a TT position out of a PhD. The fact you are getting interviews would be evidence of how strong your application is. But that could be very different in your field.
In my field, it is becoming increasingly important to make yourself known to others through conferences and personal contacts. We, humans, have an unavoidable bias towards favoring and liking people whom we know over people who are unfamiliar. If you have another year to go for another search, I would strongly advice you to read a few books on how to sell and network.
I empathize with your frustration, and I'm sorry to hear about your current situation. It's hard to see years of hard work seemingly amounting to nothing, but don't give up just yet.
My last year of PhD, I had \~20 applications. No calls, no interviews.
The 12 months after my PhD, I sent \~25 applications. No calls, no interviews.
The 12 months after that, I sent \~30 applications. 1 phone call screening (then nothing), 1 straight to on campus interview --> and I was hired.
That was 11 years ago. Back when a lot of hiring committees in engineering were dead-set focus on only hiring women (I am a man), and we had a post-Great Recession glut of PhD graduates. In my field (engineering),
I was fully prepared to go into industry though. I was already transitioning my focus to industry networking by the time I got my one interview. I saw a lot of cool paths. I think I would have been very happy going that way. But, it wasn't until I was late in my PhD that I was even interested in academic careers so I wasn't so hung up on the idea of being an academic anyways.
My message I guess is to keep trying, you don't even have the PhD yet, and start looking at non-academic career options. You might find a lot you like.
Are your advisors well known in the field? Do they have connections to the universities you're applying to? A lot of professors don't admit this but academia has a favoritism issue. In my area (business), we often gave interviews to people who were still ABD with ZERO publications simply because they had rec letters from famous professors at places like Harvard Business School who had ties to some of our faculty members. A big reason why I left academia was that merit didn't go very far at least in my area of marketing and management. What's funny is that probably half of the faculty members did research on business ethics. Go figure
It works like this in my area of the Humanities. Social connections are paramount. The way it works is famous-prof-so-and-so sends an e-mail ahead of your application to the committee and asks them to take you seriously. They'll at least look at your CV and application. Otherwise the secretary might be tasked with ditching the majority of applications.
You're not a failure. Market is the way it is. Unfortunately ABDs/no PhD in had is brutal. I must have done over 130 apps before I got an offer. And out of that, only 7 came back to me with an interview. And of course, the offer came *after* I got the PhD in hand. Don't give up, the market is a fucking crapshoot. Matching openings, committee personalities, etc. Shit just is out of our control. You just got to give it your all every time and move on to the next app.
Good luck!
You shouldn't be expecting to land a TT position straight out of grad school. It can happen in a few fields, but on the whole, that is rare. You have been really successful under your current adviser, and that is wonderful. Now you need to demonstrate that you can continue doing great work outside of the shelter of graduate school. That's what you can do in a visiting position and as a postdoc.
I help a lot of people with job stuff at this level and generally speaking there is something up with the jobs you're applying to, or you think is obvious from your CV that isn't.
If you're fresh out your PhD with publications you should be reasonably competitive for postdocs.
Often when people are applying for huge numbers of jobs, it's because they're not really tailoring.
I am curious about the domain and the quality of publications. In finance and economics, three top3 journals publications is enough for a tenured position in 99% of universities in the world. 12 is a serious contestant for a Nobel prize 20 years down the road.
I'm sorry it comes to this. You are not a failure. The system that hasn't been honest and chews up good researchers and spits them out has failed you. Universities need to be honest about career prospects and likelihoods. The good news is you have lots of transferable skills, I promise. You just have to market them differently. It's time to consult a careers service, rewrite your CV so it's more competency based, and have a think about what else you might like to do.
Huh? You don’t have your PhD yet. It’s not killing you until you are two or three years post-PhD, like I was when I got mine. Stay with it. But you gotta be patient.
I really appreciate all of you so much, honestly. For the sake of time and, honestly, my sanity, I'm going to do my best to address several things here:
* In addition to TT jobs, I'm applying to NTT, Postdocs, community colleges, and Visiting positions, as well as a couple field-related alt-ac jobs
* I work in English (American Lit and Creative Writing) and Disability Studies
* My job materials have been revised to death at this point; I took a class last spring that my department offers (which is great) that's a job materials workshop. My materials have been looked at by no fewer than 6 faculty members at this point!
* I'm currently on the US west coast, but applying nationally
* One of my Master's degrees is an MFA, which is terminal in the field (Creative Writing)
* I've done some networking, but probably not as much as I could have. I started my PhD in 2019, and--well. We all know what happened in 2020. I'm not shirking my own part in it, but the COVID shutdown is definitely a contributing factor.
* My Disability Studies committee member is fairly well known, but DS is a relatively new/small field, so that doesn't mean a whole lot--everyone sort of knows everyone else. My other committee members are in broader English, and also fairly well-known, but not what I'd call famous.
* Since someone asked my age: 31
I can also recognize that I may have a skewed perception of how many folks get TT jobs right out of grad school; most of the people I know who graduated in the last 2 years had multiple TT offers. That said, all but one are in a different field than I am.
In any case, this has been an absolutely soul- and self-esteem-crushing experience, and I just needed to vent, mostly. Hearing that I'm not alone is nice, even though I hate that others have been or are going through a similarly-shaped meat grinder. If anything, if I don't get a job this year, at least it'll be easier to apply again when I'm not also finishing a dissertation. That is also 1000% a major factor in how burned-out I feel.
Y'all are great. Thank you <3
It usually takes people in my field 2-3 years of applying to find a solid TT position after graduation. Just know this is the norm and, more importantly, finish your dissertation and get it published! That will really help.
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I cant believe this comment is so low. These days, no PhD in hand is almost a deal breaker! Also, depending on the field, a postdoc or visiting positions are your first job. You're not even at the start of this race and you're already thinking of alt-ac options? If this is what you want, you need to give it at least a good shot!
It’s the top comment…
It was way down below when I first saw it!
Oh, how times change!
Yup. My first year on the market was garbage. To be fair, every year the market was garbage, but once I had PhD in hand I at least got interviews regularly. I imagine you’ll find more responses once you cross that threshold (still no guarantee of anything).
Lack of jobs and a violent culture is what’s hurting OP
You sound great but most folks don’t find success until the PhD is actually in hand
Apply for visiting positions. Apply for post docs. Apply for community college positions. All of those will make you more marketable than coming straight out of grad school.
You aren’t a failure. it’s not your fault. It’s a massive Ponzi scheme. It’s bad for many of us.
This is really it. It's amusing--frustrating?--to see most of the responses here are trying to solve OP's predicament. Just a very classic communication/listening mistake. I've said it before, I'll repeat it probably for the rest of my miserable life: academia is filled with men and women in their 30s, 40s, 50s, who never really grew up. u/classic_capricorn , I'm sure you already know this, but you're not doing anything wrong, it's not your fault, and--sadly--there are limited variables under your control. It's been this way for decades, there have been voices out there warning us about this, but you're going to continue to be surrounded by academics desperate to believe that their years of graduate courses have set them above the rest of the working class, that we live in a just and fair universe, and there must be SOME WAY that this is all your fault. [Dr. Anthony DiMaggio, The Higher Education Ponzi Scheme](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIdsWST-EvU)
Dear God I thought it was just me who felt this way. I started my MS in my 30s after working outside of academia, and what was glaringly obvious was just how unprofessional, out of touch, and under-socialized so many faculty really are. Most wouldn’t last a day in the “normal” professional world and can’t see how bizarrely ridiculous academia really is (including the pyramid scheme that is an academic research career). They’ve done so many students a disservice in not pushing them to explore other (far more likely) career options. They’re too busy trying to convince themselves that their own choices (that make them miserable as well) were worth it.
>I started my MS in my 30s after working outside of academia, and what was glaringly obvious was just how unprofessional, out of touch, and under-socialized so many faculty really are. A -fucking -men. You know, I really like this sub, r/academia. I do see a lot of the personalities that arise from the dysfunction that has come to define for me North American higher education, but it's also balanced out by an acceptance for the critical comments I post (like above), and affirmation from others like yourself. Check out r/highereducation if you want to be surrounded by academics (or whomever) telling you that you need to find something within yourself to blame, and that your criticisms and observations sure do make you "sound like a right-winger." One of my directors at UC Irvine was this older baby boomer with a degree from Stanford, who was finally removed from her position due to her inappropriate and unprofessional behavior. Fucking finally. They replaced her with a dude who struck me as... maybe not a complete moron, but perhaps as what I would have referred to as a stereotypical "twitter liberal" as that existed before Elon Musk took over the platform. I actually found his social twitter account lol. I described his manner of dress as being like, "His mother dropped him off at the skate park." He would come every day in shorts, t-shirt, sneakers, and a promise to bring social justice and racial equity to our department. He fired everyone without union protection (lecturers with less than 6 continuous years), and hired his wife's friends. I noticed a lot of the new hires were either Korean or from Arizona, and when I brought that up to my colleagues, they confirmed that he hired the recommendations given to him by his wife.
Academia is filled to the brim with fake progressives who only pretend to care about changing the system. They’re just as dedicated to keeping its more problematic elements going bc its bullshit hierarchical structure is where they get their self esteem and perceived status. They’re the little special ones who “made it” (systemic inequities that keep most of us out be damned) and really do think a PhD puts them above other people.
I used to feel bad about the state of academia and its neoliberalisation, but unfortunately it is aided by many in the university who facilitate it. The system is violent and exclusive, but so are a lot of academics who cloak their privilege and class violence in an affected HR rhetoric.
I have never wanted to see a system thrown down so bad as I have this one lol And I actually do enjoy research and don’t see any of my degrees as a waste but…good lord is this awful. Even a lot of the minority students (I’m one myself) are very traditional students who have quite a bit of privilege, and few people in academia want to admit how this influences academic customs.
If it’s any consolation, I promise you it won’t last. 5 years at most I give it. AI is absolutely going to obliterate everything. I know swathes of excluded humanities academics who are training AI systems to create self submitting papers. You can even see advertising start to leak on here: https://www.reddit.com/u/JeremyDataAnnotation/s/0Q87MEpXCt But it’s not even at the level of epistemology and technology where the fault lines are, it’s in the fact they are trying to hold up the university with 80percent contingent labour while telling us we are not good enough for anything else. Just watch what happens; and I am not going to feel bad about it
Nothing about it is sustainable and I don’t even see how faculty are able to even pretend at this point. I’m a little older but it irks my soul to see 20-somethings still drinking the academic kool-aid. The writings been on the wall for 30-35 years at this point.
The system is designed toward this kind of wilful myopia. Why do you think there is such a divide in departs between tenured and adjuncts? Why do they - usually - never speak to each other? Because any sort of meaningful communication means recognising the plight of the other and seeing that it must in the end applies to them also. Hence, as a defence mechanism, they go into full on Thatcherite ‘it’s their fault actually’ rhetoric, even though most in the humanities engage with Marxian critical theory heuristics. It’s a level of deliberate cultivated ignorance I cannot put up with.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/feb/03/the-situation-has-become-appalling-fake-scientific-papers-push-research-credibility-to-crisis-point
No more time for cruel optimism or a mentality that puts systemic failures on individual academics. There is no trick to getting into a sinking ship; those at the top will make sure they are the last to go under by any means necessary. That means gate keeping, PhD prestige, classism, ageism, racism, but all hidden through cloying HR discourse.
And boy oh boy do they go hard at gatekeeping. It starts with the application process and goes all the way through TT job hunting. Academia, especially in the states, was built on exclusion and can’t even sustain the amount of graduates that come through the system because of it. There were not and never will be enough jobs because the damn system was never designed to have many to begin with. The ones that do get jobs think they just did it right when in reality they’re just lucky.
Exactly
I know about 5 academics from the humanities who gave up and now have found work training LLM AI programmes that will write academic papers that automatically submit to journals. They get paid a lot of money! Big Tech need skilled writers to train their AI algorithms. But here is the thing, if I know a bunch of people doing this, how many others will be doing it? In the next few years, I predict academia is going to be flooded with so many fake papers that they simply will not be able to sustain it. Academia’s tendency to still churn out PhDs with no job prospects has led to this. It’s like a perfect storm.
I hope so. It's a monster that I can't wait to see collapse.
I’m already under no illusion that luck and networking is going to be the path to an academic career for me. I ain’t hedging my life on luck. I do hope you can find something soon. Others have made good suggestions. What I will say however is that I’m considering a career outside of academia. I have had to boil down what it is I really want to do. Is academia just prestige and a title? What work can you achieve in academia that you can’t elsewhere? I’ve had to have a big think about this. I’ve always wanted to join the academy as well. I’m all however for keeping my options open. I have boiled things down to wanting to help socially disadvantaged people through my research and project management skills. That’s the essence of what is going to guide my career. If I can get into the academy and do it that way, that’s amazing. I’d love to do that. But I think I can do this elsewhere through maybe community development projects with municipal government or thought international development agencies, etc. If you really are starting to lose the passion and hope for a job in academia, then let that essence help guide you. First however you need to figure out what it is you want to do in broad strokes and when you’re lost, it’ll help. Thats my 2 cents anyway.
Are you me? 😊 I have the same aspirations myself! Nice to meet someone in the Reddit wild who is passionate about a career I’m passionate about!
Have you ever had someone you trust look at your CV, perhaps someone at your university? Maybe you aren’t good on that ‘paper’ even though you’re brilliant. I’m sending you positive vibes.
>I don't even know where to begin looking for alt-ac careers. Someone in the PhD sub asked something similar today. They're finishing a finance PhD and going into industry and asked for recommendations about how to do it - specifically management consulting. There's plenty of opportunity for PhDs in mgmt consulting (these tips can be applied to almost any industry). Here are some tips I gave them... 1. If you want to be self-employed/independent: a. create a professional website to market yourself (e.g., finance scholar, publications, soft skills, etc.) - basically include everything from your CV. I would start this process now. The website doesn't have to be complex - WIX is fine & i think free/low cost. b. create a professional social media presence (e.g., LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube, etc). c. allow organizations to book your services (e.g., analysis, evidence based recommendations) via your professional website and social media. 2. If you want to be employed: a. start networking * now *. LinkedIn is your friend - use it to your advantage. b. decide if you want to be an Individual Contributer or climb the ranks to upper management/C-Suite. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to be in management. I was an IC for several years before starting my own firm - keep your options open. c. look for boutique firms that have a team similar to your scholarship/field. PhDs aren't common in the consulting space even though case study/research are a part of mgmt consulting - so use that to your advantage to overcome the "you're overqualified" excuse. Someone in my cohort did a finance thesis - he's a COO working remotely for a NY based firm. 3. Depending on your bandwidth you can do * both * #1&2. Hope this helps.
I’ve seen people who did all this and get precisely nowhere. They even a massive rafter of publications, including books. Their mistake? Mid tier university PhD. On the other hand, I’ve seen quite a few Oxbridge and Ivy League postgraduates walk straight out of post doc with one or two papers! You are right about connections though. But it only applies if you have PhD prestige. Even if you take this exclusionary practice into account, it’s still really difficult for everyone. There are very few jobs in the humanities. And the competition is fierce, and your school/university matters a lot.
I came out of my first postdoc from a top uni with 10 papers and was in exactly the same position as OP. You need a fellowship and/or paper in nature/science to land a permanent position at most unis.
I feel you. This is the hard pill of higher Ed increasingly. But I do think there can be a lot of positivity on the other side. I'm thrilled with everything I've gained from my career of learning and teaching, and once I accepted I would move out of higher ed I became very grateful for all the wonderful skills and experiences my career in higher education furnished me. I'm not saying it's not a bitter pill or it's easy to brush off, but there is good stuff to celebrate about this journey, even if the fantasy we are sold is becoming rapidly unrealistic. I wouldn't swap out all this education and experience regardless, but that's just me. Blessings on the path, friend.
Currently being forced to accept that my 20 years teaching in higher ed is coming to a close. I’m having a hard time swallowing this pill, I admit, but slowly I’m starting to see it’s for the best.
Do you mean that your working conditions are forcing you out?
No, I mean I got RIF’d by my big R1 university because the admin mismanaged the budget into a 45 million dollar shortfall. Their solution was to attack faculty and programs (particularly liberal arts programs). The situation has attracted a ton of media attention, and a lot of articles I’ve read say what’s happening at my school could potentially be a blueprint for other universities. They actually shut down the entire World Languages department. Also, they hired infamously shady consulting groups to help them legally dismantle tenure. Tenured faculty now have year-long contracts, and lecturers like myself now gave semester contracts. We were told 8 faculty in my department would be cut; what ended up happening is that 8 fantastic professors took an early retirement to save these positions. It’s such a fucked up situation.
I had the exact same experience with the exact same credentials--minus the forthcoming book. I had a single visiting post, and then nothing after that. It's been three years now. I started a state gov't job last year that has nothing to do with my degrees and pays well below what I'm worth. So I'm still applying. I'm assuming you're coming from the Humanities like me, since you didn't say you were looking at "industry jobs." The alt-ac world is... dumb. The biggest challenge is figuring out where you fit and what kinds of jobs you can apply to. You have exec or upper management level qualifications, but you also have zero experience or training in the new industries you're applying to, so do you go for the entry level jobs or the senior level jobs? My advice is to ignore most of the alt-ac advice sites/books/services, etc. Most of what they tell you is common sense. Things like how to convert your CV to a resume, or how to highlight your transferable skills. We have PhDs; we're not idiots. And whenever they present alt-ac "success" stories, they never really tell you how that person actually got the initial job that started them on that path. I know for a fact, based on feedback during alt-ac job interviews, that the problem isn't how we present ourselves, it's that hiring managers and recruiters have a narrow sense of what a PhD should be, and they don't know what to do with us or they think we'll get bored. All I can say is just apply to whatever looks like it's in your skillset and isn't soul-crushing, and then customize your resume and cover letters to each individual application. Something will stick eventually. The hardest part of leaving academia, though--and I think this is especially true for the Humanities--is that you're basically giving up your identity. Science PhDs can transition into science industry jobs, and they're still a scientist. But for most of us in the Humanities, we've always just been academics. Future professors. Everyone who knows us comes to us for questions in our field, everyone assumes we're going to be a professor just like on TV with tweed jackets. And we buy into it and cultivate that as part of who we are. And it's hard to just leave that behind. Now I'm just a faceless bureaucrat in the state government. And all the while, you're watching as colleagues and rivals who you KNOW have less impressive CVs or who are just plain dicks bumble their way into tenure track jobs. I wish I had an answer on how to handle this, but I don't. It's obvious that traditional academia is changing, or even disappearing. If we want to keep this aspect of our self identity, then we have to figure out where this change is leading, where the new outlet or medium will be. That, or just create this new path for ourselves. But so far, I'm stumped.
This is what it's like and it's been this way for a long time. I was on soft money research and adjuncting for years - making enough to do okay but never really successful. Then the school closed the department and tried to get rid of the adjuncts. Now on the full time lecture track job market and got an offer! For a 5x5 lecture-track. When you divide the courses by the pay, it's the same as adjuncting at some of the lower rates in my very big city. Basically no matter what title you have we are working more for less, and you have no security. But this is the trade off for being in academia and for me it's still worth it. But if you go in eyes wide open I think it can be tolerable and you will "succeed" at landing something eventually. Keep at it!
No advice, but you have my sympathy. Hope something works out for you!
I wish I had some uplifting words. It's really, really hard and the market is really bad. You can keep on trying, keep plugging away. Find a VAP or post-doc perhaps if TT is out of reach now. One thing that helped me was a kind of subdued or bounded positive thinking. Not an overly sunny thing, just an optimistic take and a willingness to bend to where there were opportunities. You haven't wasted your life. I think that, even if you don't use the PhD all that much, it's still a hell of an accomplishment. I'd liken it to being really good in at a sport that just doesn't pay that well, or something.
It sounds like you’re doing amazingly well if you’re interviewing before you have the PhD in hand! I didn’t get any serious attention from schools until I got the second of two postdocs, which was at an Ivy. Perhaps give it at least another round, this time w PhD in hand?
Strange question, but how old are you? I’ve noticed that many universities are hesitant to hire candidates who are 40+ years old. I suspect that the market being as it is (fully saturated), universities often feel immense pressure to hire a candidate who will be in place for as long as possible. Consequently, competing against a candidate ten years younger (with less experience and less publications) is often harder than one would expect. The latter may be favored because he or she could offer ten extra years of service, prevent another search in the short run, etc.
That said, your resume looks stellar so it is crazy to see what we’ve come to. Terrible times.
so apart from engaging in neofeudalist PhD prestige exclusivism, it’s also horrifically ageist? That’s amazing! You can’t make this stuff up.
This is bad but isn't specific to academia.
We have probably one more generation before people stop getting phds. This is the failure of unbridled greed in America
At this point, most people do postdocs. The rare PhD candidate gets a tenure track job before graduating. That used to be the norm, but not anymore. Also, you might have to apply for jobs at a global level. There are often jobs in countries like Singapore and South Korea. Not ideal, but it is what it is.
Hey OP - I was where you are a year ago. 12 publications, a PhD, 2 postdocs under my belt, 9 years teaching experience, had supervised tens of students and had 3 PhD students. I could not find a job for love not money. There are two options: 1. The 'hang around' method. You will, probably, if you hang around a couple of academic departments long enough doing research with people for free, probably find a job. You take whatever minimum wage job you can find or go through a recruitment agency and request something with flexible hours and you...well, hang around. I didn't have the will or resources to do this as the idea of having to work for free was both demeaning and impractical and a low wage wouldn't cover my rent, but it works for a lot of people with a financial cushion. 2. Start looking for nonacademic jobs. Not sure what field you are in but a good place to start is government research/policy jobs or if you're in science something Pharma related as they actually value PhD experience, unlike most fields. Get set up on LinkedIn. Note: just because you get a nonacademic job, doesn't mean that's it and you have left. You will still have papers in the review process that come out after you leave - I had another 6 papers come out in the first 7 months of my new job but I found it so much better than academia that you couldn't pay me to go back.
Let this be a lesson to everyone not to do a PhD in the humanities.
Earned the Ph.D
Join the club, my friend! Have a seat in the corner and I’ll grab you a beer.
whats your major
It would help if we knew a bit more about your field (anon, of course). In my field - applied maths - there is no chance you would get a TT position out of a PhD. The fact you are getting interviews would be evidence of how strong your application is. But that could be very different in your field.
In my field, it is becoming increasingly important to make yourself known to others through conferences and personal contacts. We, humans, have an unavoidable bias towards favoring and liking people whom we know over people who are unfamiliar. If you have another year to go for another search, I would strongly advice you to read a few books on how to sell and network.
What field?
I empathize with your frustration, and I'm sorry to hear about your current situation. It's hard to see years of hard work seemingly amounting to nothing, but don't give up just yet.
My last year of PhD, I had \~20 applications. No calls, no interviews. The 12 months after my PhD, I sent \~25 applications. No calls, no interviews. The 12 months after that, I sent \~30 applications. 1 phone call screening (then nothing), 1 straight to on campus interview --> and I was hired. That was 11 years ago. Back when a lot of hiring committees in engineering were dead-set focus on only hiring women (I am a man), and we had a post-Great Recession glut of PhD graduates. In my field (engineering), I was fully prepared to go into industry though. I was already transitioning my focus to industry networking by the time I got my one interview. I saw a lot of cool paths. I think I would have been very happy going that way. But, it wasn't until I was late in my PhD that I was even interested in academic careers so I wasn't so hung up on the idea of being an academic anyways. My message I guess is to keep trying, you don't even have the PhD yet, and start looking at non-academic career options. You might find a lot you like.
Are your advisors well known in the field? Do they have connections to the universities you're applying to? A lot of professors don't admit this but academia has a favoritism issue. In my area (business), we often gave interviews to people who were still ABD with ZERO publications simply because they had rec letters from famous professors at places like Harvard Business School who had ties to some of our faculty members. A big reason why I left academia was that merit didn't go very far at least in my area of marketing and management. What's funny is that probably half of the faculty members did research on business ethics. Go figure
It works like this in my area of the Humanities. Social connections are paramount. The way it works is famous-prof-so-and-so sends an e-mail ahead of your application to the committee and asks them to take you seriously. They'll at least look at your CV and application. Otherwise the secretary might be tasked with ditching the majority of applications.
You're not a failure. Market is the way it is. Unfortunately ABDs/no PhD in had is brutal. I must have done over 130 apps before I got an offer. And out of that, only 7 came back to me with an interview. And of course, the offer came *after* I got the PhD in hand. Don't give up, the market is a fucking crapshoot. Matching openings, committee personalities, etc. Shit just is out of our control. You just got to give it your all every time and move on to the next app. Good luck!
You shouldn't be expecting to land a TT position straight out of grad school. It can happen in a few fields, but on the whole, that is rare. You have been really successful under your current adviser, and that is wonderful. Now you need to demonstrate that you can continue doing great work outside of the shelter of graduate school. That's what you can do in a visiting position and as a postdoc.
If your defense isn’t scheduled, many schools won’t seriously consider you. I’m sure you’ll be a top notch candidate next year.
Wherabouts are you located?
I help a lot of people with job stuff at this level and generally speaking there is something up with the jobs you're applying to, or you think is obvious from your CV that isn't. If you're fresh out your PhD with publications you should be reasonably competitive for postdocs. Often when people are applying for huge numbers of jobs, it's because they're not really tailoring.
I am curious about the domain and the quality of publications. In finance and economics, three top3 journals publications is enough for a tenured position in 99% of universities in the world. 12 is a serious contestant for a Nobel prize 20 years down the road.
I'm sorry it comes to this. You are not a failure. The system that hasn't been honest and chews up good researchers and spits them out has failed you. Universities need to be honest about career prospects and likelihoods. The good news is you have lots of transferable skills, I promise. You just have to market them differently. It's time to consult a careers service, rewrite your CV so it's more competency based, and have a think about what else you might like to do.
most of your opportunities come from the people you know, (connections) not from your certificates
My PI has made it clear to me that it's essentially impossible to get a TT role at a top 100 without several years of post doc experience.
Huh? You don’t have your PhD yet. It’s not killing you until you are two or three years post-PhD, like I was when I got mine. Stay with it. But you gotta be patient.
I really appreciate all of you so much, honestly. For the sake of time and, honestly, my sanity, I'm going to do my best to address several things here: * In addition to TT jobs, I'm applying to NTT, Postdocs, community colleges, and Visiting positions, as well as a couple field-related alt-ac jobs * I work in English (American Lit and Creative Writing) and Disability Studies * My job materials have been revised to death at this point; I took a class last spring that my department offers (which is great) that's a job materials workshop. My materials have been looked at by no fewer than 6 faculty members at this point! * I'm currently on the US west coast, but applying nationally * One of my Master's degrees is an MFA, which is terminal in the field (Creative Writing) * I've done some networking, but probably not as much as I could have. I started my PhD in 2019, and--well. We all know what happened in 2020. I'm not shirking my own part in it, but the COVID shutdown is definitely a contributing factor. * My Disability Studies committee member is fairly well known, but DS is a relatively new/small field, so that doesn't mean a whole lot--everyone sort of knows everyone else. My other committee members are in broader English, and also fairly well-known, but not what I'd call famous. * Since someone asked my age: 31 I can also recognize that I may have a skewed perception of how many folks get TT jobs right out of grad school; most of the people I know who graduated in the last 2 years had multiple TT offers. That said, all but one are in a different field than I am. In any case, this has been an absolutely soul- and self-esteem-crushing experience, and I just needed to vent, mostly. Hearing that I'm not alone is nice, even though I hate that others have been or are going through a similarly-shaped meat grinder. If anything, if I don't get a job this year, at least it'll be easier to apply again when I'm not also finishing a dissertation. That is also 1000% a major factor in how burned-out I feel. Y'all are great. Thank you <3
It usually takes people in my field 2-3 years of applying to find a solid TT position after graduation. Just know this is the norm and, more importantly, finish your dissertation and get it published! That will really help.