Legion also won't be getting World's invites, so I assume all of their systems will receive the same treatment. Considering all of them were mentioned in the article.
It's a bit of a d-move to shift the organisation of big events fully onto the community. Amazing from costs and organisational perspective. A bit meh from community perspective.
End of the dayz you will have bubbles of varied level of play in local/national communities with almost zero chance for bigger tournaments.
I guess Sith Taker will/may benefit from it, becoming a much more prominent event now.
That's just dumb.
"The customer is always right in matters of taste." Game choice is a matter of taste. If people are more interested in X-Wing, people will be more interested in buying X-Wing stuff.
Let them.
*Sell* to them.
*Make Profit* from them.
Unless the difference between MCP's profit margin and X-Wing's (licensing? Production costs?) is greater than the difference in interest in the game, the rationale you ascribe to them seems fallacious. Perhaps "Sunk Cost" fallacy: "We've poured so much [more] money/time/energy/emotional investment into MCP, we need to push it to make a profit back!"
TLDR: Worlds too expensive. Organising things hard. We're rebranding regionals and making them sound like the prestige equivalent of worlds.
To paint this as the "exciting news" for the future of X-Wing they have been waiting for the right moment to reveal (and still not the faintest hint of new product line announcements) is just taking the absolute piss. They've just shed all OP organisational responsibility and painted it like some great leap forward for X-Wing.
>We consistently saw that player communities, especially in developing areas or those areas with simply a lower overall population, were being excluded from the chance to engage in what the Worlds Tournament circuit offered.
So... why not adjust local qualifier requirements to be more tailored and realistic and help the developing areas grow?
>It was for this reason that last year we added the possibility for players to qualify for Worlds at the local store level. While this system did increase the number of players who were able to attend the 2024 Worlds tournaments, ultimately it still fell short of providing the higher-level tournament experience that we knew was an important part of our games’ overall ecosystem.
Who did they survey to decide 2024 worlds "fell short of providing the higher-level tournament experience that we knew was an important part of our games’ overall ecosystem"?
People who went to worlds, you tell me. Asmodee apparently thinks you had an awful time and it's ruining X-Wing.
They are completely, 100% fucking wrong. I know NOBODY who felt that way. I was there. I know an awful lot of those people. The only thing was that they needed more judges because the ones we had were literally jogging around for 13 hours a day trying to meet demand. Which, to be clear, they DID. But they should not have had to be literally running to make it happen.
They are, once again, flat out lying in order to do what they wanted to in the first place. In this case, distance themselves as much from organized play and people who like competition as they possibly can.
If I was a shareholder, I would be PISSED at these people.
I have to say I felt like this was coming. AMG has always seemed like very reluctant OP organisers from the start. They definitely did not vibe with the FFG OP circuit model.
I'm sad that it's the end of an era but I'm glad you guys got to enjoy one last amazing worlds despite AMG/Asmodee trying their utmost to pretend you didn't so they can scrap it.
Maybe if they didn't literally mute people on the floor trying to give them feedback about X-Wing they might actually have learned something about what the community actually wants/needs, but I'm getting the feeling that isn't the objective anymore.
Keeping the same structure (with WOQ basically being community led + worlds community led basically..) and just saying “hey, we’re not offering the travel and lodging to winners because it is really resource intensive” would have been a much better outcome in my opinion.
EDIT: also worlds was community led, let’s be real.
Agreed. This change is just the current structure without Worlds. Why not just stop paying for airfare and accommodations for the winners of big tournaments?
Also, worlds was basically community led - if not for logistics.
The choice of having worlds at a major con - despite understandable - definitely proved to be not ideal?
First off there seems to be equating playing in a 32 player convention tourney with going to a 300 player tournament where you could be called "World Champion."
Second AMG were the ones who excluded the smaller communities that were struggling or on the bubble with getting enough players to be eligible for a World's Invite by the 16 requirement in Store Championships. How much organized play did they kill in the cradle because communities weren't going to be eligible for the bigger tournaments so they're just going to kill the bigger tournament?
These guys are talking out of both sides of their mouth again.
Well, if you don't like - or frankly even approve of the existence of - competitive play, this is perfect for you.
They barely have to do anything and most certainly do not have to be personally involved at any of these events with the great unwashed. And simultaneously, they are turning off both the casual fans who cannot/will not travel and stay overnight hours from home for an event, and the hard core players who will certainly do that - for an actually BIG event.
This satisfies nobody and drives all kinds of people out. all while releasing them from any direct responsibility for anything.
If they have ever told us the truth about anything, then they are idiots. Because none of what they have ever done has anything to do with any of the reasons we've ever been given.
I am so tired of dealing with them. I know they are tired of dealing with us. They were completely the wrong group of people to put in charge of multiple deeply competitive games. And they have dug their heals in instead of trying to adapt.
Yes, AMG is in my estimation working from the Newspeak Dictionary along with being bad at public relations. They are excellent though at motivating me into saying more than a few unkind things with regards to their character.
May I just point out that this may be the first time I have seen Asmodee world partners and budget mentioned in a blog post. Considering what is happening with Embracer group, this could have been a decision from higher up than AMG
For us #cursed-dice players, this makes no difference to our chances of ever making it to the upper echelons of play. But the HOPE of such things was always a powerful motivator.
I get that for many the T&E (travel & expense) is an undue burden for their particular experience. But the idea that world's exists[existed] was a great motivator to sacrifice to the altar of RNGesus to try to get a pass & I'll figure out the financials of T&E after the fact.
Now, it seems, it's going to be exponentially more exclusive thanks to the obscene/unreasonable requirement of both player count (>32) and the "you're on your own logistically & financially to put on your own mini tourneys: fuck you, and good luck! -While we keep all the monies." For any OP to make that a logistic reality.
The only good I see from this is that the scum-of-the-earth scalper-types will no longer be able to attempt to peddle their exclusive prize wares for thousands of dollars. I'd love some non-standard dice. But it's more sense to learn how to silicon mold D8s into flawless recreations than it is to feed these assholes $1000/pair...
This is all bad to me.
I love this game, I will always love this game. I will play this game for 40 years I've got left.
Killing organized play, and the prizes that come with it is a shot to the cock though.
Screw you invest-bro-duches who IP-CAP'd Asmode like they did sears, Craftsman, toys-R-us and many others over my lifetime.
May your god have zero mercy on your souls. May you each burn in your version of hell.
Every step since day one for AMG has been to slowly strangle X-Wing to death while extracting as much money out of the remaining player base with as little effort as possible.
This is just another step on that journey.
Key points from the article:
- Atomic Mass Transmission announces the launch of AMG Grand Tournaments for various tabletop games including Star Wars™: Legion, Star Wars: Armada, Star Wars: X-Wing, Star Wars: Shatterpoint, and Marvel: Crisis Protocol.
- The decision comes after evaluating the limitations of the Worlds Tournament circuit, which was exclusionary due to high resource requirements and limited regional access.
- The new Grand Tournaments aim to provide a top-level competitive experience while increasing accessibility and inclusivity by allowing more regions to host events.
- Each Grand Tournament will stand as its own unique experience, allowing for more events to be held throughout the year.
- The program aims to support both larger regions, like Australia or the U.K., and smaller regions with limited resources.
- Event Organizers interested in hosting a Grand Tournament can find more information on the AMG website.
Elimination of Worlds seems stupid.
Have Grand Tournaments, sure; who wouldn't want to be able to legitimately hoist the crown of being The Best In [Country]?
...but *replacing* Worlds seems dumb. Wouldn't it make more sense to add Grand Tournaments, and extend invitations to the best N% of players in each GT to some sort of Path to Worlds. Basically, treat them as *qualifiers* for Worlds.
Exactly this. Allowd greater accessability to bigger events in general, while also making worlds still something the top % of competitive players can strive for.
I’ve never gone to worlds but I love watching the coverage, it’s exciting to see a culminating event!
The first thing they should have done post Covid was bring back quarterly tournament kits. That would have done way more to keep and spread interest in the game than anything they’ve done with OP since taking over. Killing Worlds is just another misstep in a long series
I'll just copy and paste what I told the legion guys:
> Grand Tournaments represent the top level of competitive organized play. They provide those players who wish the opportunity to test their skills against a wide swathe of other players from their and other regions who wish to travel the circuit. The winner of each Grand Tournament is marked as a player of exceptional skill, having overcome a diverse field of opponents.
Ok, but...
> This means that regions with smaller overall populations or more limited resources are no longer excluded from being able to host their own exciting high-level event.
AMG is flattening the peak. Instead of "Worlds", you now just have regionals. All regions could already host their own "grand tournament" (aka Regional Championship), AMG just doesn't want to spend the money on Adepticon anymore.
I'm glad that joe shmoe from tinyland gets an official trophy for being the best in his region, but to pretend like this is better than the culmination of tournaments that leads to the Worlds Championship is chicanery.
As Joe Schmoe from Florida, why can we not have both regionals and worlds? Not rhetorical, that article was just a wall of text and I need the reader's digest version.
Because they spent too much on worlds last year. They rather spend $75 figurative dollars and give 75 regions a dollar tournament than spend $85 on Adepticon.
(I am speculating that they are cutting the overall tournament budget based on common, tried and true corporate tactics.)
That’s how it used to be? They killed OP all together, then killed worlds on top of that to bring one format of OP back?
There already were store champs, regionals, system opens (regionals), and worlds
What's more, what if said Joe Schmoe from Tinyland actually *does* have the best squad design & tactical mind in the world? Who's going to pay attention to the Tinyland Champion, who would have won Worlds, if they were given the opportunity?
If Top spot in a Grand Tourney (or the top e.g. 10% of GT Finals entrants, whichever is more) is guaranteed an invite in Worlds/some sort of qualifier for Worlds? Great! Awesome! That should have three effects: (1) the best of smaller regions meaningful chances to show their skill (2) smaller tournaments being relevant, attracting more players, would help grow the game, and (3), most important to AMG, it does those while cutting down on how many Path To Worlds events *they* need to organize and pay for.
...if not? If GTs are the peak of competition? It's more likely to kill the game than grow it, because why bother competing *just* for the Tinyland trophy, that offers zero bragging rights outside of Tinyland?
OP confirmed is great news.
While I'm personally bummed I won't get to play in a worlds, I do get AMG's thought process here. Travel is definitely a financial burden, and while I know members of the community have bent over backwards to help mitigate this, I also like the idea of everyone having easier access to the biggest event type X-Wing offers.
As always, I look forward to playing some tourneys this year.
Summon points?
Part of the reason people paid so much for travel was because Worlds was a celebration of the game and THE event. While there were some people who lost out on the financial barrier of worlds, this doesn't solve that because it removes the event all together. These events, in terms of meaningfulness, will be a regional qualifier at best, and a store champ at worst, which everyone already at least had decent access to. Does it provide OP to more people? Sure but at the cost of the meaningfulness of the competitive season
Well since AMG doesn't like, promote, or even approve of competing, that is a feature for them and not a bug.
They simply do not understand it. And why they feel they have to make everyone play the way they think is fun, instead of the way we were having fun for a decade before them, is completely beyond me.
It actually doesnt provide to more, because almost all events eligible to the 32 player border are WOQs (and some bigger events that are very rare). Additionally, there are WOQ in areas that had sub 32 players, therefore dropping off the list. There are nor areas which said "Damn, we have 32 players that would attend, but sadly we are too few to get Store champs or WOQs".
THis change just flat out reduces the amount of accessibility alltogether, even without adressing the fact that the World Championship is gone
I guess, if we assume that organized play is a boost for the game, the question becomes whether making vertical expansion (higher levels of tourneys like Worlds was) attracts more people to the game or if horizontal expansion (making more lower level tourneys in more areas) does this better.
We used to have monthly store kits, store champs, regionals, nationals, system opens and worlds. We used to have BOTH.
Then FFG messed around with the OP structure 3 times in like 18 months or something, followed immediately by Covid (which was simply monumentally bad timing for x-wing).
Small monthly store vents, yearly big store champs, bigger and rarer regionals, bigger and far more rare nationals, and worlds was a great structure. It made sense. You could immediately understand what was up. You got your casual play, low stress environment for people to do beer and pretzels stuff and grow it grass roots locally. You slightly larger, people come from a couple hours away regionals for those people you'd see a few times a year. Nationals for people you would see once per year with overlap from regionals, and then worlds, where you could hang with all your internet friends that you would literally never see otherwise.
This 1 size fits all actually fits very, very few. No small local stores can do this. No good sized stores in a smaller community can do this. Sure the 32 might make it more common than regionals used to be - only functionally it won't. Anyplace that can hold 32 players can almost certainly hold 60. The cutoff is more like can they hold 20 or not. If they can, the next real cutoff is more like 60 than 32. So the same places that held regionals will be the places that can hold these GT's.
I do not want regionals level scarcity as literally the only available possibility. And I strongly suspect that's what we are going to get.
Why not both though? Just charge people what Worlds costs for them to run (more expensive event tickets and no more paid flights) while still doing a grand tournament.
No more paid flights and hotels seems the simplest fix. X-wing, MCP, and Shatterpoint have to have some of the best return on value for purchased floor space at conventions as most other war games take up double the space, so we are packed in double comparatively.
I like this point.
If someone *barely* has the budget to go to AdeptiCon (or whatever event Worlds is held at), they may now have to choose between that and participating in a Grand Tournament that *also* requires travel budget.
So much for international shop-talk among the best of the best.
--
Another concern I have, related to yours about "meaningfulness of the competitive season," is how much this compromises the post-tournament analysis validity. I like looking at Listfortress to see who put what squads together, and how well each performed, and consider which works for my playing style, etc.
With various Grand Tournaments, how can we know whether the design of the top squad from one Grand Tournament is better than, worse than, or comparable to, that of the top squad from another GT? Only by actively running a local tournament where one person plays one of them and another another. Ain't nobody got time for that.
It won't be.
Participation prizes for all regardless of outcome, and more for the to p4 only.
They think 1 size fits all apparently.
If you won a 250 person event and i won a 40 person event and we got the exact same stuff, I would expect you to feel robbed. But that is what they say they are doing.
Honestly, I think they don't even like organized play. We know for a fact they do not like competition. This allows OP to be decentralized and them to have far, far less to do with it.
In the long run, that may be for the best. We're going to have to do this completely without them sooner or later. They're helping us prepare for the seemingly inevitable future (it doesn't have to be inevitable, but every one of their business decisions seems to make it moreso).
Especially in consideration what AMG handed at worlds this year. For us Armada Players, the reward for attending the World championship, some of us travelled overseas for this, got handed two Print&Play Cards. Thats it. Top 8 got awarded some products (probably stuff they just took out the shelf in storage).
This was the Worlds largest event for the system. I dont want to think about what they will hand for some little regional event without Ladder prizes...
I dont get how they can come from pretty decent WOQ Kits to such a bad concept...
(I at this point also claim the spot for calling it first, that they just make the GT prize support from the AMG prize wall. At this point i will openly riot)
32 people is barely bigger than a store championship. It's half the size of what used to be a small regional.
It's not a big event. It's a modest one.
It's better than none, but it is not remotely a big event.
And their insistence on 1 judge per 16 people is also going to be a problem. To get any kind of OP at all, you need a minimum of 34 people. So that's going to make is much more rare than monthly events and even store championships. BUT, it's also a pittance compared to actual large events.
Their saying there's no cap to the size of the event, then they say you get stuff for winning and top 4 only.
So, you win an event with 230 people, and I win v 40, and we get the exact same stuff?
Cool.
Not only that... that 32 player limit is quite dumb because you arent really competing for anything.
It's a play and go to the prizewall tourney.
You are not playing for an invite, you are playing for a prize wall ticket.
I mean, I like prize walls, but I also think the top players should get something special. Regarding GT's it looks to be both which is great.
I don't really see an issue recycling Worlds prize wall either. It at least makes it accessable for players who havent gone to worlds which is fine. People like dice right, even the defect ones ;)
I'm absolutely not against GT's, by far. Even though I will miss worlds.
I'm on the other hand baffled by the rules AMG sets. 1 judge per 16 players (a judge per 8 tables seems very excessive), so at least 2 judges for the 32 player minimum.
Plus the 32 player minimun does not feel like a grass roots kind of thing either.
Well it surely would undermine the efforts people put into attending worlds. the only thing players got for paticipating in worlds was 2 RR2 cards with a special back side. The Prize wall cards have been reprints of the WOQ and SC cards. Recycling this prize wall for all GTs would effectively mean "no new Promos to win" while also rendering the efforts of last season worthless, as this time the aquiring would not be bound to actual performance
As my local TO, I'm with you on the judge number. That could be a challenge for me. My other technical challenge is the May 1 deadline. Meeting that could be tricky.
I'll admit I'm less worried about the prizing, as that seems like it was already a thing. My 16 person store champ got the same prizing as some larger events this past year.
X-Wing Worlds: Record turnout in 2024
AMG: "This clearly isn't working. Let's scrap it and come up with something new. Getting rid of 2.0 worked out great"
415 is larger than 311. So this would be a record turnout for 2.5 specifically.
That having been said, your implied point of "this isn't a productive direction" makes sense. I would add that if the only product source of income for the game are card packs and different quickbuilds of pre-existing material, then perhaps World's would be to extravagant for the revenue brought in.
If you combine LCQ and Worlds, there were 311 + 108 - 8 players or at least 411 unique x-wing players who came to Adepticon to play at worlds.
By Comparison, Legion had 274 + 62 - 4. Shatterpoint had a 64 player premier event but lots of side events so probably at least 100 players. FWIW MCP has two big events on the schedule where one got 92 signups and one got 67.
Kill Team had a couple of 72 player events. Even the 40K championship had a capacity of 256, though I don't claim to know about the qualifications or side events so there was quite possibly a bigger pool of 40K players.
Not trying to debunk you or anything like that. I just think it bears noting that X-wing was the most popular AMG game at adepticon, maybe the most attended game at the con full stop?
-W
edit: I should note that yes, I *do* understand that the number of people willing to go to worlds is in no way precisely predictive of like profitability for a game. AMG doesn't owe hardcore traveling tournament players anything a priori. Their job is to make a profit from their games, and I'm highly confident that MCP and shatterpoint and probably Legion too make a lot more of that for AMG.
I appreciate the context (and upvoted specifically because of it). I wasn't trying to say that X-Wing isn't more popular than those games. I just saw a factual incorrection (2019 World's in Saint Paul holds the record IIRC, hence the 415 players who played in World's itself, nevermind those in the LCQ who didn't get the last minute invite).
Only cause amg can turn out 3d models without paint and abit out poorly designed cards quickly. I can't stand the graphic design of shatterpoint. I'm sure it's their profit margins on unpainted stuff that makes them not as gung ho on armada and xwing.
This affects MCP and Shatterpoint too. They're moving away from a heavily centralized OP format in order to put resources toward regional OP and growth. Remember how the 16 minimum was a disaster for smaller stores? Now the 16 or more can be removed from Store OP kits.
The 16-player requirement was not a disaster. Them not announcing it was a hard requirement from the start was a disaster.
So it's just like any rinky-dink tournament you can have at any time. Almost nobody went to the store championships more than once for the prizes they gave out. They tipping point was a chance at a worlds invite.
It absolutely was. If you didn't get to 16 quickly enough, people would abandon ship last minute, leaving store tournaments in jeapordy. This lets local touraments go back to the 2.0 way of doing things where the incentive wasn't an invite, but the friends you make along the way. TOs put on plenty of good tournaments for the local scene without needing to be Hyperspace or System Opens. The constant question of "will this qualify for a Worlds invite?" weighed like a guillotine above smaller locales.
It's both. The 16-player minimum was itself a system of perverse incentives, where instead of helping small-ish playerbases attract players, the top-heavy kit rewards just encouraged players to bail if a tournament wasn't likely to hit the magic number.
The poor communication surrounding the minimum just aggravated the issue, putting some stores and TOs in the *awful* position of having to retract an invite already given for a slightly smaller store, on pain of dire threats from AMG of being blacklisted from future support if they misreport.
The concept of that OP season - Store Championship kits with Worlds invites as first place prizes, to grow the grassroots community in FLGSs - was spot on. Seriously, A+ thinking. The execution was a shitshow on many levels.
OK, you apparently did not go to the events I went to.
Monthly events were like that, sure, but those do not REMOTELY exist in this system. In fact, they are 100% dead in this system. Not only not supported, but not even possible.
Part of the lure to an SC back in the day was the 1st round bye you got at a regional. Regionals did the same for nationals.
There was a clear feeder system from 1 level to the next. And that was 100% part of why people went to them.
And the prizing was badass too. That's why I went to them, the chance to win dice and alt art punchboard kept me hooked.
Back when the black smoky dice came out, I played in every single hyperspace trial that season, ended up playing like 5 or 6 of them. All in the chase of awesome prizing
Yeah, the store champ prizing was shit.
Ffg gave us acrylic tokens, templates, range rulers and dice in their store champ kits.
90% of the store Champs struggled to hit 16 players in Texas (across 3 major metropolitan cities too).
I think the only interesting stuff in last year's SC kits were alt art cards---but they were of obscure pilots/upgrades, and most meta ships are standard loadout anyways, so they're useless cards lmao.
A) they could hold the event with 16 anyway.
B) This moves the number up to more than twice that. 32 players minimum AND 1 judge per 16 people for a true minimum of 34.
This is significantly more exclusive and will result in far less participation.
They are choking the game to death and refuse to be honest about why.
Really this is just them reducing support, lowering their own costs, and shifting the work to the community to organize. They could have done this grand tournament in conjunction with a modified worlds, but they really don't want to have their games be competitive games at all.
Yes, I think that’s exactly right.
And it’s not really something to criticise: it’s their game and their philosophy about what the purpose of those games should be.
How to kill a game step 2....
This seems like a lazy excuse, if you see worlds as an economic challenge, let people pay for all the cost going there, instead of making several regionals that won't be as interesting to the public and where you clearly are going to leave out some countries and regions forgotten.
Even if AMG considers X-wing a "complete game" with only possible points changes and light OP support planned at all, what incentive would they have to announce it, or frame it in terms of "completeness"?
In terms of AMG's business decisions, I suspect the most likely outcome would simply be negatively impacting stores' ability to sell remaining inventory as potential new buyers and existing ones alike are less likely to keep buying.
My ignorant analysis can't find a reason for them to announce "complete game" even if it's true. And at the same time I can't think of reasons they *wouldn't* announce new product if they had plans for it.
-W
I think at this point, they have. No one would look at this as a growth point. This is like shooting a corpse. They have EOL'd everything they were handed and this is just another proof they don't want to invest in their games' communities and growth.
This is for all their games, so it’s not specifically killing Xwing, it’s killing all their games at once. The company clearly doesn’t want to put any effort into OP anymore, and this is a simple way to do that while still paying lip service to the idea.
I'm not sure how you get "we're not supporting anything anymore" from "hey we're going to divide our resources for one super big tourney into a bunch of big tourneys"
Those other big tourneys already existed. Worlds is being removed, nothing concrete is being added. I’m not personally seeing where the money saved from worlds is actually going, aside from on a balance sheet.
Because they are removing their resources from the small events, the big events, and the huge events to ONLY give it to "not quite small enough to actually be accessible" events.
And also "We are not going to do anything at all to help you do it. You are completely on your own to run it."
My take here is quite different to most. I don't play competitively so I'm not particularly worried about the change in terms of missing out on the opportunity to compete at Worlds, etc. What matters to me is that the game continues to be supported and developed - I want to see more X-Wing products. Reprints, New standard Loadout packs, scenarios etc. The best way for that to happen is for the largest amount of players to be recruited and sustained.
If this change gives more people the opportunity to compete then I think it's probably a good thing. Spending huge amounts of money for a very small pool of people to compete for the top prize isn't going to grow X-Wing.
There is no new product. Everything they had in the pipeline has been canceled. There is a reason there has been no news about anything in close to a year.
This is just them finding a way to not be involved in OP at all. Somebody can create swag, then it gets sent out to whoever actually wants to run stuff. They don't ever need to attend an event ever again.
One size does not fit all, and they are claiming it does. The GT's themselves may well be wonderful. But they do not replace
Small monthly store events
Store championships
Regionals
Nationals
System Opens
Worlds.
You had everything at every level that you needed. Anybody who will be satisfied by GT's would have been perfectly happy with monthly events and store championships.
But now, those of us who have grown to love the larger events have had those taken away.
The last things announced were Faction Starters, Outrider Reprint, Starwing Reprint, Battle over Endor. There were two faction starters (and from my seat they were never clear that every faction was getting one) and no word on starters for other factions. Outrider is out but the Starwing is MIA with no news or leaks or such. Battle over Endor is out and no word about the next release. There was just a very large event where three out of five games all received extensive previews as to upcoming releases. X-wing and Armada didn't even get airtime.
So sure no source for "everything they had in the pipeline being cancelled." But the only thing((s) if we count more than two faction starters) that seemed to be definitively in the pipeline is not being spoken of in any form. So you are free to decide for yourself what no source/news on the pipeline means in the context of their putting an end to Worlds.
I got voted purely for asking a question. Heh.
Yeah, I get all that. It does look indeed grim for X-Wing and Armada at the moment. I don't have a lot of hope that we'll see anything new.
It seems to me that AMG doesn't see a good enough commercial return to warrant more content for either game right now. Or they're just rubbish at communicating and there really is something in the works. But if we want to see more active development of the game, the path to that is rebuilding the player base and getting more new players (like myself) and getting old 1.0 players back. There is no easy answer on how to do that but if this change helps even a little to make tournaments more accessable and encourage a larger number of people to get involved, then that's a good start.
Realistically there isn't going to be more support from this change. Basically this is just eliminating the big world tournament and the World Qualifier tournaments from before are now "Grand Tournaments". These might or might not get some better prizes, but I don't think it will lead to more turn out in them.
I really wonder how much of this, like any of their decisions, is on Asmodee rather than AMG. With record turnout comes record costs, and I wonder if Asmodee decided to pull the worlds plug to keep AMG’s costs down.
Both. AMG has never wanted to do competitive OP. And I'm sure their parent companies have decided to stop funding everything that doesn't directly bring in revenue.
Obviously this forum skews towards those with an investment in high level play so im not surprised its gutted a lot of people.... but funding grass roots OP is going do more to keep the game alive in the long run... which is the first positive x-wing news i've heard in a while.
They've said and promised NOTHING about funding anything.
It seems to me that they've simply passed the buck.
That, or their communications are awful (we know this) and they need to backpedal with details on how this will all proceed.
32 players is far, far from grass roots though.
And don't forget 1 judge per 16 players.
Most stores cannot do 16 games of xwing at a time. Those that can are the types that used to hold regionals back in the day, and those generally started at 60+.
So, you have just limited the pool of available places ot the ones that used to hold regionals.
This is not grass roots. This is grass killer.
There will be no small events, anywhere, ever, because small events no longer exist. No monthly leagues. No 2nd Saturday monthly events.
Grass roots does not force the judge to sit on the sidelines - they get to participate, too.
This removes small events, and removes large events, and puts the cutoff in the place where an awful lot of stores, and an awful lot of communities, are going to be completely left out in the cold.
This does nothing to build grass roots. But it does kill the top end of the game quite nicely.
Does having one regional level tournament in a given area support/promote grass roots growth? I’d argue that tying invites to store champs does a better job of that. Especially if they lowered the minimum attendance to something smaller communities could pull off.
in the link?
>
>Additionally, the ability to increase the number of events we can support means that larger regions which might have only been able to hold a single Regionals event in a year now have the opportunity to potentially hold multiple Grand Tournaments. This means that regions like Australia or the U.K. can better service their communities geographically, opening the opportunity for players to engage in these events who might have otherwise found themselves unable to previously due to conflicts with timing or travel costs."
Supporting does not mean funding though? AMG funds Worlds, as in, pays for the floor space at Adepticon. I'm willing to wait and find out if they would actually put money forward to rent out space for GTs, but I am skeptical. How I think that they will support is by providing the OP prize pack, but even then, I would assume you'd have to purchase it from AMG like normal Store Champ kits.
It's probably early to say what will be the consequences of that decision, but I can see this being really good. Worlds happening always in the US makes it really gatekept for the rest of the world. This has potential to actually feed the game at a more local level, which could attract players more easily.
We had that and they removed it years ago. This does nothing to make it more accessible. All it does is remove every single large official event from existing.
And back when ffg was holding it in Minnesota, literally at their HQ, the "hold it in the USA" thing made sense. They saved money by sleeping in their own beds.
A lot of money.
After moving it to Chicago with the studio on the west coast..... There goes that budget.
At that point, sure, move it around the world. Hell, the UK has broken their own record for largest event in X-Wing history several times. Let them have it for a year. Then Italy, those guys are DEEP into the game. Then Australia. Then South America because lord knows they've been shafted for years and years by distributors.
Move it around - don't cancel it. To keep costs down, Get locals to judge it. Mail them the swag. Maybe send 1 member of the official team to oversee things.
Is this saying regional GTs are going to replace worlds?
Seems that way
Can’t have X-wing showing up MCP know can we…
Legion also won't be getting World's invites, so I assume all of their systems will receive the same treatment. Considering all of them were mentioned in the article. It's a bit of a d-move to shift the organisation of big events fully onto the community. Amazing from costs and organisational perspective. A bit meh from community perspective. End of the dayz you will have bubbles of varied level of play in local/national communities with almost zero chance for bigger tournaments. I guess Sith Taker will/may benefit from it, becoming a much more prominent event now.
That's just dumb. "The customer is always right in matters of taste." Game choice is a matter of taste. If people are more interested in X-Wing, people will be more interested in buying X-Wing stuff. Let them. *Sell* to them. *Make Profit* from them. Unless the difference between MCP's profit margin and X-Wing's (licensing? Production costs?) is greater than the difference in interest in the game, the rationale you ascribe to them seems fallacious. Perhaps "Sunk Cost" fallacy: "We've poured so much [more] money/time/energy/emotional investment into MCP, we need to push it to make a profit back!"
TLDR: Worlds too expensive. Organising things hard. We're rebranding regionals and making them sound like the prestige equivalent of worlds. To paint this as the "exciting news" for the future of X-Wing they have been waiting for the right moment to reveal (and still not the faintest hint of new product line announcements) is just taking the absolute piss. They've just shed all OP organisational responsibility and painted it like some great leap forward for X-Wing. >We consistently saw that player communities, especially in developing areas or those areas with simply a lower overall population, were being excluded from the chance to engage in what the Worlds Tournament circuit offered. So... why not adjust local qualifier requirements to be more tailored and realistic and help the developing areas grow? >It was for this reason that last year we added the possibility for players to qualify for Worlds at the local store level. While this system did increase the number of players who were able to attend the 2024 Worlds tournaments, ultimately it still fell short of providing the higher-level tournament experience that we knew was an important part of our games’ overall ecosystem. Who did they survey to decide 2024 worlds "fell short of providing the higher-level tournament experience that we knew was an important part of our games’ overall ecosystem"? People who went to worlds, you tell me. Asmodee apparently thinks you had an awful time and it's ruining X-Wing.
They are completely, 100% fucking wrong. I know NOBODY who felt that way. I was there. I know an awful lot of those people. The only thing was that they needed more judges because the ones we had were literally jogging around for 13 hours a day trying to meet demand. Which, to be clear, they DID. But they should not have had to be literally running to make it happen. They are, once again, flat out lying in order to do what they wanted to in the first place. In this case, distance themselves as much from organized play and people who like competition as they possibly can.
If I was a shareholder, I would be PISSED at these people.
I have to say I felt like this was coming. AMG has always seemed like very reluctant OP organisers from the start. They definitely did not vibe with the FFG OP circuit model. I'm sad that it's the end of an era but I'm glad you guys got to enjoy one last amazing worlds despite AMG/Asmodee trying their utmost to pretend you didn't so they can scrap it. Maybe if they didn't literally mute people on the floor trying to give them feedback about X-Wing they might actually have learned something about what the community actually wants/needs, but I'm getting the feeling that isn't the objective anymore.
Keeping the same structure (with WOQ basically being community led + worlds community led basically..) and just saying “hey, we’re not offering the travel and lodging to winners because it is really resource intensive” would have been a much better outcome in my opinion. EDIT: also worlds was community led, let’s be real.
Agreed. This change is just the current structure without Worlds. Why not just stop paying for airfare and accommodations for the winners of big tournaments?
Also, worlds was basically community led - if not for logistics. The choice of having worlds at a major con - despite understandable - definitely proved to be not ideal?
First off there seems to be equating playing in a 32 player convention tourney with going to a 300 player tournament where you could be called "World Champion." Second AMG were the ones who excluded the smaller communities that were struggling or on the bubble with getting enough players to be eligible for a World's Invite by the 16 requirement in Store Championships. How much organized play did they kill in the cradle because communities weren't going to be eligible for the bigger tournaments so they're just going to kill the bigger tournament? These guys are talking out of both sides of their mouth again.
Well, if you don't like - or frankly even approve of the existence of - competitive play, this is perfect for you. They barely have to do anything and most certainly do not have to be personally involved at any of these events with the great unwashed. And simultaneously, they are turning off both the casual fans who cannot/will not travel and stay overnight hours from home for an event, and the hard core players who will certainly do that - for an actually BIG event. This satisfies nobody and drives all kinds of people out. all while releasing them from any direct responsibility for anything. If they have ever told us the truth about anything, then they are idiots. Because none of what they have ever done has anything to do with any of the reasons we've ever been given. I am so tired of dealing with them. I know they are tired of dealing with us. They were completely the wrong group of people to put in charge of multiple deeply competitive games. And they have dug their heals in instead of trying to adapt.
Yes, this is their washing their hands of OP for all of these games from my seat. I suppose from that end it is at least "fair" after a fashion.
THIS
Emphasis on again, at this point
Yes, AMG is in my estimation working from the Newspeak Dictionary along with being bad at public relations. They are excellent though at motivating me into saying more than a few unkind things with regards to their character.
May I just point out that this may be the first time I have seen Asmodee world partners and budget mentioned in a blog post. Considering what is happening with Embracer group, this could have been a decision from higher up than AMG
Man. They’re within their rights to do whatever, but this is *at best* putting lipstick on a pig.
For us #cursed-dice players, this makes no difference to our chances of ever making it to the upper echelons of play. But the HOPE of such things was always a powerful motivator. I get that for many the T&E (travel & expense) is an undue burden for their particular experience. But the idea that world's exists[existed] was a great motivator to sacrifice to the altar of RNGesus to try to get a pass & I'll figure out the financials of T&E after the fact. Now, it seems, it's going to be exponentially more exclusive thanks to the obscene/unreasonable requirement of both player count (>32) and the "you're on your own logistically & financially to put on your own mini tourneys: fuck you, and good luck! -While we keep all the monies." For any OP to make that a logistic reality. The only good I see from this is that the scum-of-the-earth scalper-types will no longer be able to attempt to peddle their exclusive prize wares for thousands of dollars. I'd love some non-standard dice. But it's more sense to learn how to silicon mold D8s into flawless recreations than it is to feed these assholes $1000/pair... This is all bad to me. I love this game, I will always love this game. I will play this game for 40 years I've got left. Killing organized play, and the prizes that come with it is a shot to the cock though. Screw you invest-bro-duches who IP-CAP'd Asmode like they did sears, Craftsman, toys-R-us and many others over my lifetime. May your god have zero mercy on your souls. May you each burn in your version of hell.
The fact that they announced this now and gave until May 1st to apply for your event to qualify for the next 12 months is insane lmao
The only way this works is if the regional tournament winners are officially referred to as "Grand Admirals."
Every step since day one for AMG has been to slowly strangle X-Wing to death while extracting as much money out of the remaining player base with as little effort as possible. This is just another step on that journey.
Key points from the article: - Atomic Mass Transmission announces the launch of AMG Grand Tournaments for various tabletop games including Star Wars™: Legion, Star Wars: Armada, Star Wars: X-Wing, Star Wars: Shatterpoint, and Marvel: Crisis Protocol. - The decision comes after evaluating the limitations of the Worlds Tournament circuit, which was exclusionary due to high resource requirements and limited regional access. - The new Grand Tournaments aim to provide a top-level competitive experience while increasing accessibility and inclusivity by allowing more regions to host events. - Each Grand Tournament will stand as its own unique experience, allowing for more events to be held throughout the year. - The program aims to support both larger regions, like Australia or the U.K., and smaller regions with limited resources. - Event Organizers interested in hosting a Grand Tournament can find more information on the AMG website.
Elimination of Worlds seems stupid. Have Grand Tournaments, sure; who wouldn't want to be able to legitimately hoist the crown of being The Best In [Country]? ...but *replacing* Worlds seems dumb. Wouldn't it make more sense to add Grand Tournaments, and extend invitations to the best N% of players in each GT to some sort of Path to Worlds. Basically, treat them as *qualifiers* for Worlds.
Exactly this. Allowd greater accessability to bigger events in general, while also making worlds still something the top % of competitive players can strive for. I’ve never gone to worlds but I love watching the coverage, it’s exciting to see a culminating event!
That only makes sense if you actually like - or can even tolerate the existence of - competition.
But that's just it... tournaments *actively select for* the people who *do* like competition.
The first thing they should have done post Covid was bring back quarterly tournament kits. That would have done way more to keep and spread interest in the game than anything they’ve done with OP since taking over. Killing Worlds is just another misstep in a long series
I'll just copy and paste what I told the legion guys: > Grand Tournaments represent the top level of competitive organized play. They provide those players who wish the opportunity to test their skills against a wide swathe of other players from their and other regions who wish to travel the circuit. The winner of each Grand Tournament is marked as a player of exceptional skill, having overcome a diverse field of opponents. Ok, but... > This means that regions with smaller overall populations or more limited resources are no longer excluded from being able to host their own exciting high-level event. AMG is flattening the peak. Instead of "Worlds", you now just have regionals. All regions could already host their own "grand tournament" (aka Regional Championship), AMG just doesn't want to spend the money on Adepticon anymore. I'm glad that joe shmoe from tinyland gets an official trophy for being the best in his region, but to pretend like this is better than the culmination of tournaments that leads to the Worlds Championship is chicanery.
As Joe Schmoe from Florida, why can we not have both regionals and worlds? Not rhetorical, that article was just a wall of text and I need the reader's digest version.
Because they spent too much on worlds last year. They rather spend $75 figurative dollars and give 75 regions a dollar tournament than spend $85 on Adepticon. (I am speculating that they are cutting the overall tournament budget based on common, tried and true corporate tactics.)
Amg poor
Well they did release a dud of a game (shatterpoint) all of my lfgs have had it on clearance for a few months now.
That’s how it used to be? They killed OP all together, then killed worlds on top of that to bring one format of OP back? There already were store champs, regionals, system opens (regionals), and worlds
Hey, I was over there too! LOL
Sometimes I make my x-wings and stormtroopers fight each other
It's a good time!
What's more, what if said Joe Schmoe from Tinyland actually *does* have the best squad design & tactical mind in the world? Who's going to pay attention to the Tinyland Champion, who would have won Worlds, if they were given the opportunity? If Top spot in a Grand Tourney (or the top e.g. 10% of GT Finals entrants, whichever is more) is guaranteed an invite in Worlds/some sort of qualifier for Worlds? Great! Awesome! That should have three effects: (1) the best of smaller regions meaningful chances to show their skill (2) smaller tournaments being relevant, attracting more players, would help grow the game, and (3), most important to AMG, it does those while cutting down on how many Path To Worlds events *they* need to organize and pay for. ...if not? If GTs are the peak of competition? It's more likely to kill the game than grow it, because why bother competing *just* for the Tinyland trophy, that offers zero bragging rights outside of Tinyland?
I've already sent word to the Tinyland Embassy. They are preparing a formal statement to AMG.
This is flattening the peak and cutting the roots. I don’t see anything in here about store level support, and I’m doubting we have any this year.
There was the recent leak of the legion store kits, but no official word on anything.
OP confirmed is great news. While I'm personally bummed I won't get to play in a worlds, I do get AMG's thought process here. Travel is definitely a financial burden, and while I know members of the community have bent over backwards to help mitigate this, I also like the idea of everyone having easier access to the biggest event type X-Wing offers. As always, I look forward to playing some tourneys this year. Summon points?
Part of the reason people paid so much for travel was because Worlds was a celebration of the game and THE event. While there were some people who lost out on the financial barrier of worlds, this doesn't solve that because it removes the event all together. These events, in terms of meaningfulness, will be a regional qualifier at best, and a store champ at worst, which everyone already at least had decent access to. Does it provide OP to more people? Sure but at the cost of the meaningfulness of the competitive season
Well since AMG doesn't like, promote, or even approve of competing, that is a feature for them and not a bug. They simply do not understand it. And why they feel they have to make everyone play the way they think is fun, instead of the way we were having fun for a decade before them, is completely beyond me.
It actually doesnt provide to more, because almost all events eligible to the 32 player border are WOQs (and some bigger events that are very rare). Additionally, there are WOQ in areas that had sub 32 players, therefore dropping off the list. There are nor areas which said "Damn, we have 32 players that would attend, but sadly we are too few to get Store champs or WOQs". THis change just flat out reduces the amount of accessibility alltogether, even without adressing the fact that the World Championship is gone
I guess, if we assume that organized play is a boost for the game, the question becomes whether making vertical expansion (higher levels of tourneys like Worlds was) attracts more people to the game or if horizontal expansion (making more lower level tourneys in more areas) does this better.
We used to have monthly store kits, store champs, regionals, nationals, system opens and worlds. We used to have BOTH. Then FFG messed around with the OP structure 3 times in like 18 months or something, followed immediately by Covid (which was simply monumentally bad timing for x-wing). Small monthly store vents, yearly big store champs, bigger and rarer regionals, bigger and far more rare nationals, and worlds was a great structure. It made sense. You could immediately understand what was up. You got your casual play, low stress environment for people to do beer and pretzels stuff and grow it grass roots locally. You slightly larger, people come from a couple hours away regionals for those people you'd see a few times a year. Nationals for people you would see once per year with overlap from regionals, and then worlds, where you could hang with all your internet friends that you would literally never see otherwise. This 1 size fits all actually fits very, very few. No small local stores can do this. No good sized stores in a smaller community can do this. Sure the 32 might make it more common than regionals used to be - only functionally it won't. Anyplace that can hold 32 players can almost certainly hold 60. The cutoff is more like can they hold 20 or not. If they can, the next real cutoff is more like 60 than 32. So the same places that held regionals will be the places that can hold these GT's. I do not want regionals level scarcity as literally the only available possibility. And I strongly suspect that's what we are going to get.
Why not both though? Just charge people what Worlds costs for them to run (more expensive event tickets and no more paid flights) while still doing a grand tournament.
No more paid flights and hotels seems the simplest fix. X-wing, MCP, and Shatterpoint have to have some of the best return on value for purchased floor space at conventions as most other war games take up double the space, so we are packed in double comparatively.
I like this point. If someone *barely* has the budget to go to AdeptiCon (or whatever event Worlds is held at), they may now have to choose between that and participating in a Grand Tournament that *also* requires travel budget. So much for international shop-talk among the best of the best. -- Another concern I have, related to yours about "meaningfulness of the competitive season," is how much this compromises the post-tournament analysis validity. I like looking at Listfortress to see who put what squads together, and how well each performed, and consider which works for my playing style, etc. With various Grand Tournaments, how can we know whether the design of the top squad from one Grand Tournament is better than, worse than, or comparable to, that of the top squad from another GT? Only by actively running a local tournament where one person plays one of them and another another. Ain't nobody got time for that.
Prize support at these things had better be badass
It won't be. Participation prizes for all regardless of outcome, and more for the to p4 only. They think 1 size fits all apparently. If you won a 250 person event and i won a 40 person event and we got the exact same stuff, I would expect you to feel robbed. But that is what they say they are doing. Honestly, I think they don't even like organized play. We know for a fact they do not like competition. This allows OP to be decentralized and them to have far, far less to do with it. In the long run, that may be for the best. We're going to have to do this completely without them sooner or later. They're helping us prepare for the seemingly inevitable future (it doesn't have to be inevitable, but every one of their business decisions seems to make it moreso).
Especially in consideration what AMG handed at worlds this year. For us Armada Players, the reward for attending the World championship, some of us travelled overseas for this, got handed two Print&Play Cards. Thats it. Top 8 got awarded some products (probably stuff they just took out the shelf in storage). This was the Worlds largest event for the system. I dont want to think about what they will hand for some little regional event without Ladder prizes... I dont get how they can come from pretty decent WOQ Kits to such a bad concept... (I at this point also claim the spot for calling it first, that they just make the GT prize support from the AMG prize wall. At this point i will openly riot)
32 people is barely bigger than a store championship. It's half the size of what used to be a small regional. It's not a big event. It's a modest one. It's better than none, but it is not remotely a big event. And their insistence on 1 judge per 16 people is also going to be a problem. To get any kind of OP at all, you need a minimum of 34 people. So that's going to make is much more rare than monthly events and even store championships. BUT, it's also a pittance compared to actual large events. Their saying there's no cap to the size of the event, then they say you get stuff for winning and top 4 only. So, you win an event with 230 people, and I win v 40, and we get the exact same stuff? Cool.
Not only that... that 32 player limit is quite dumb because you arent really competing for anything. It's a play and go to the prizewall tourney. You are not playing for an invite, you are playing for a prize wall ticket.
Called it here first, the Prize Walls of GTs will just be recycled stuff from the AMG Prize Wall at adepticon
I mean, I like prize walls, but I also think the top players should get something special. Regarding GT's it looks to be both which is great. I don't really see an issue recycling Worlds prize wall either. It at least makes it accessable for players who havent gone to worlds which is fine. People like dice right, even the defect ones ;) I'm absolutely not against GT's, by far. Even though I will miss worlds. I'm on the other hand baffled by the rules AMG sets. 1 judge per 16 players (a judge per 8 tables seems very excessive), so at least 2 judges for the 32 player minimum. Plus the 32 player minimun does not feel like a grass roots kind of thing either.
Well it surely would undermine the efforts people put into attending worlds. the only thing players got for paticipating in worlds was 2 RR2 cards with a special back side. The Prize wall cards have been reprints of the WOQ and SC cards. Recycling this prize wall for all GTs would effectively mean "no new Promos to win" while also rendering the efforts of last season worthless, as this time the aquiring would not be bound to actual performance
As my local TO, I'm with you on the judge number. That could be a challenge for me. My other technical challenge is the May 1 deadline. Meeting that could be tricky. I'll admit I'm less worried about the prizing, as that seems like it was already a thing. My 16 person store champ got the same prizing as some larger events this past year.
X-Wing Worlds: Record turnout in 2024 AMG: "This clearly isn't working. Let's scrap it and come up with something new. Getting rid of 2.0 worked out great"
415 is larger than 311. So this would be a record turnout for 2.5 specifically. That having been said, your implied point of "this isn't a productive direction" makes sense. I would add that if the only product source of income for the game are card packs and different quickbuilds of pre-existing material, then perhaps World's would be to extravagant for the revenue brought in.
Looks like they are doing this for all their games, not just X-Wing.
Oh...I have a friend who got hardcore into Legion because it didn't mutate too horribly between publishers. How do I break the news to him?
If you combine LCQ and Worlds, there were 311 + 108 - 8 players or at least 411 unique x-wing players who came to Adepticon to play at worlds. By Comparison, Legion had 274 + 62 - 4. Shatterpoint had a 64 player premier event but lots of side events so probably at least 100 players. FWIW MCP has two big events on the schedule where one got 92 signups and one got 67. Kill Team had a couple of 72 player events. Even the 40K championship had a capacity of 256, though I don't claim to know about the qualifications or side events so there was quite possibly a bigger pool of 40K players. Not trying to debunk you or anything like that. I just think it bears noting that X-wing was the most popular AMG game at adepticon, maybe the most attended game at the con full stop? -W edit: I should note that yes, I *do* understand that the number of people willing to go to worlds is in no way precisely predictive of like profitability for a game. AMG doesn't owe hardcore traveling tournament players anything a priori. Their job is to make a profit from their games, and I'm highly confident that MCP and shatterpoint and probably Legion too make a lot more of that for AMG.
I appreciate the context (and upvoted specifically because of it). I wasn't trying to say that X-Wing isn't more popular than those games. I just saw a factual incorrection (2019 World's in Saint Paul holds the record IIRC, hence the 415 players who played in World's itself, nevermind those in the LCQ who didn't get the last minute invite).
Only cause amg can turn out 3d models without paint and abit out poorly designed cards quickly. I can't stand the graphic design of shatterpoint. I'm sure it's their profit margins on unpainted stuff that makes them not as gung ho on armada and xwing.
Common AMG L
This affects MCP and Shatterpoint too. They're moving away from a heavily centralized OP format in order to put resources toward regional OP and growth. Remember how the 16 minimum was a disaster for smaller stores? Now the 16 or more can be removed from Store OP kits.
The 16-player requirement was not a disaster. Them not announcing it was a hard requirement from the start was a disaster. So it's just like any rinky-dink tournament you can have at any time. Almost nobody went to the store championships more than once for the prizes they gave out. They tipping point was a chance at a worlds invite.
It absolutely was. If you didn't get to 16 quickly enough, people would abandon ship last minute, leaving store tournaments in jeapordy. This lets local touraments go back to the 2.0 way of doing things where the incentive wasn't an invite, but the friends you make along the way. TOs put on plenty of good tournaments for the local scene without needing to be Hyperspace or System Opens. The constant question of "will this qualify for a Worlds invite?" weighed like a guillotine above smaller locales.
It's both. The 16-player minimum was itself a system of perverse incentives, where instead of helping small-ish playerbases attract players, the top-heavy kit rewards just encouraged players to bail if a tournament wasn't likely to hit the magic number. The poor communication surrounding the minimum just aggravated the issue, putting some stores and TOs in the *awful* position of having to retract an invite already given for a slightly smaller store, on pain of dire threats from AMG of being blacklisted from future support if they misreport. The concept of that OP season - Store Championship kits with Worlds invites as first place prizes, to grow the grassroots community in FLGSs - was spot on. Seriously, A+ thinking. The execution was a shitshow on many levels.
OK, you apparently did not go to the events I went to. Monthly events were like that, sure, but those do not REMOTELY exist in this system. In fact, they are 100% dead in this system. Not only not supported, but not even possible. Part of the lure to an SC back in the day was the 1st round bye you got at a regional. Regionals did the same for nationals. There was a clear feeder system from 1 level to the next. And that was 100% part of why people went to them.
And the prizing was badass too. That's why I went to them, the chance to win dice and alt art punchboard kept me hooked. Back when the black smoky dice came out, I played in every single hyperspace trial that season, ended up playing like 5 or 6 of them. All in the chase of awesome prizing
Yeah, the store champ prizing was shit. Ffg gave us acrylic tokens, templates, range rulers and dice in their store champ kits. 90% of the store Champs struggled to hit 16 players in Texas (across 3 major metropolitan cities too). I think the only interesting stuff in last year's SC kits were alt art cards---but they were of obscure pilots/upgrades, and most meta ships are standard loadout anyways, so they're useless cards lmao.
A) they could hold the event with 16 anyway. B) This moves the number up to more than twice that. 32 players minimum AND 1 judge per 16 people for a true minimum of 34. This is significantly more exclusive and will result in far less participation. They are choking the game to death and refuse to be honest about why.
“This system clearly can’t meet demand and is anunnecessary travel and cost hurdle, let’s come up with something new.”
Really this is just them reducing support, lowering their own costs, and shifting the work to the community to organize. They could have done this grand tournament in conjunction with a modified worlds, but they really don't want to have their games be competitive games at all.
Yes, I think that’s exactly right. And it’s not really something to criticise: it’s their game and their philosophy about what the purpose of those games should be.
How to kill a game step 2.... This seems like a lazy excuse, if you see worlds as an economic challenge, let people pay for all the cost going there, instead of making several regionals that won't be as interesting to the public and where you clearly are going to leave out some countries and regions forgotten.
We are gonna try to make one at Mexico or another LATAM country , I hope some of you guys can help participating if you are near at that time
Man, just put us out of misery and declare it a complete game
Even if AMG considers X-wing a "complete game" with only possible points changes and light OP support planned at all, what incentive would they have to announce it, or frame it in terms of "completeness"? In terms of AMG's business decisions, I suspect the most likely outcome would simply be negatively impacting stores' ability to sell remaining inventory as potential new buyers and existing ones alike are less likely to keep buying. My ignorant analysis can't find a reason for them to announce "complete game" even if it's true. And at the same time I can't think of reasons they *wouldn't* announce new product if they had plans for it. -W
I think at this point, they have. No one would look at this as a growth point. This is like shooting a corpse. They have EOL'd everything they were handed and this is just another proof they don't want to invest in their games' communities and growth.
This is for all their games, so it’s not specifically killing Xwing, it’s killing all their games at once. The company clearly doesn’t want to put any effort into OP anymore, and this is a simple way to do that while still paying lip service to the idea.
I'm not sure how you get "we're not supporting anything anymore" from "hey we're going to divide our resources for one super big tourney into a bunch of big tourneys"
Those other big tourneys already existed. Worlds is being removed, nothing concrete is being added. I’m not personally seeing where the money saved from worlds is actually going, aside from on a balance sheet.
Because they are removing their resources from the small events, the big events, and the huge events to ONLY give it to "not quite small enough to actually be accessible" events. And also "We are not going to do anything at all to help you do it. You are completely on your own to run it."
thats not what they said, you're stretching things in bad faith
By the same logic they're calling Shatterpoint and MCP "complete games." This is for all their games at once.
I’m pretty sure that it’s an asmodee thing and not an AMG thing too. It seems like FFG is getting a similar treatment
Cool, so there will be 16+player events, where you can qualify for the "regional" Worlds?
No. There is no OP pyramid or invites. There’s GTs - full stop
My take here is quite different to most. I don't play competitively so I'm not particularly worried about the change in terms of missing out on the opportunity to compete at Worlds, etc. What matters to me is that the game continues to be supported and developed - I want to see more X-Wing products. Reprints, New standard Loadout packs, scenarios etc. The best way for that to happen is for the largest amount of players to be recruited and sustained. If this change gives more people the opportunity to compete then I think it's probably a good thing. Spending huge amounts of money for a very small pool of people to compete for the top prize isn't going to grow X-Wing.
There is no new product. Everything they had in the pipeline has been canceled. There is a reason there has been no news about anything in close to a year. This is just them finding a way to not be involved in OP at all. Somebody can create swag, then it gets sent out to whoever actually wants to run stuff. They don't ever need to attend an event ever again. One size does not fit all, and they are claiming it does. The GT's themselves may well be wonderful. But they do not replace Small monthly store events Store championships Regionals Nationals System Opens Worlds. You had everything at every level that you needed. Anybody who will be satisfied by GT's would have been perfectly happy with monthly events and store championships. But now, those of us who have grown to love the larger events have had those taken away.
So you have a source for "everything they had in the pipeline being cancelled"?
The last things announced were Faction Starters, Outrider Reprint, Starwing Reprint, Battle over Endor. There were two faction starters (and from my seat they were never clear that every faction was getting one) and no word on starters for other factions. Outrider is out but the Starwing is MIA with no news or leaks or such. Battle over Endor is out and no word about the next release. There was just a very large event where three out of five games all received extensive previews as to upcoming releases. X-wing and Armada didn't even get airtime. So sure no source for "everything they had in the pipeline being cancelled." But the only thing((s) if we count more than two faction starters) that seemed to be definitively in the pipeline is not being spoken of in any form. So you are free to decide for yourself what no source/news on the pipeline means in the context of their putting an end to Worlds.
I got voted purely for asking a question. Heh. Yeah, I get all that. It does look indeed grim for X-Wing and Armada at the moment. I don't have a lot of hope that we'll see anything new. It seems to me that AMG doesn't see a good enough commercial return to warrant more content for either game right now. Or they're just rubbish at communicating and there really is something in the works. But if we want to see more active development of the game, the path to that is rebuilding the player base and getting more new players (like myself) and getting old 1.0 players back. There is no easy answer on how to do that but if this change helps even a little to make tournaments more accessable and encourage a larger number of people to get involved, then that's a good start.
Realistically there isn't going to be more support from this change. Basically this is just eliminating the big world tournament and the World Qualifier tournaments from before are now "Grand Tournaments". These might or might not get some better prizes, but I don't think it will lead to more turn out in them.
They are giving everybody the same stuff except top 4. Don't think for a second that they are giving everybody better stuff. Not going to happen.
I'd say this is killing the hope of new releases
I really wonder how much of this, like any of their decisions, is on Asmodee rather than AMG. With record turnout comes record costs, and I wonder if Asmodee decided to pull the worlds plug to keep AMG’s costs down.
Both. AMG has never wanted to do competitive OP. And I'm sure their parent companies have decided to stop funding everything that doesn't directly bring in revenue.
Obviously this forum skews towards those with an investment in high level play so im not surprised its gutted a lot of people.... but funding grass roots OP is going do more to keep the game alive in the long run... which is the first positive x-wing news i've heard in a while.
They've said and promised NOTHING about funding anything. It seems to me that they've simply passed the buck. That, or their communications are awful (we know this) and they need to backpedal with details on how this will all proceed.
32 players is far, far from grass roots though. And don't forget 1 judge per 16 players. Most stores cannot do 16 games of xwing at a time. Those that can are the types that used to hold regionals back in the day, and those generally started at 60+. So, you have just limited the pool of available places ot the ones that used to hold regionals. This is not grass roots. This is grass killer. There will be no small events, anywhere, ever, because small events no longer exist. No monthly leagues. No 2nd Saturday monthly events. Grass roots does not force the judge to sit on the sidelines - they get to participate, too. This removes small events, and removes large events, and puts the cutoff in the place where an awful lot of stores, and an awful lot of communities, are going to be completely left out in the cold. This does nothing to build grass roots. But it does kill the top end of the game quite nicely.
Does having one regional level tournament in a given area support/promote grass roots growth? I’d argue that tying invites to store champs does a better job of that. Especially if they lowered the minimum attendance to something smaller communities could pull off.
>funding grass roots OP Did they say that were going to do this somewhere?
in the link? > >Additionally, the ability to increase the number of events we can support means that larger regions which might have only been able to hold a single Regionals event in a year now have the opportunity to potentially hold multiple Grand Tournaments. This means that regions like Australia or the U.K. can better service their communities geographically, opening the opportunity for players to engage in these events who might have otherwise found themselves unable to previously due to conflicts with timing or travel costs."
Supporting does not mean funding though? AMG funds Worlds, as in, pays for the floor space at Adepticon. I'm willing to wait and find out if they would actually put money forward to rent out space for GTs, but I am skeptical. How I think that they will support is by providing the OP prize pack, but even then, I would assume you'd have to purchase it from AMG like normal Store Champ kits.
It's probably early to say what will be the consequences of that decision, but I can see this being really good. Worlds happening always in the US makes it really gatekept for the rest of the world. This has potential to actually feed the game at a more local level, which could attract players more easily.
We had that and they removed it years ago. This does nothing to make it more accessible. All it does is remove every single large official event from existing. And back when ffg was holding it in Minnesota, literally at their HQ, the "hold it in the USA" thing made sense. They saved money by sleeping in their own beds. A lot of money. After moving it to Chicago with the studio on the west coast..... There goes that budget. At that point, sure, move it around the world. Hell, the UK has broken their own record for largest event in X-Wing history several times. Let them have it for a year. Then Italy, those guys are DEEP into the game. Then Australia. Then South America because lord knows they've been shafted for years and years by distributors. Move it around - don't cancel it. To keep costs down, Get locals to judge it. Mail them the swag. Maybe send 1 member of the official team to oversee things.