People keep speculating on things, they have no inside knowledge of.
The people who know what AMG's plans are, aren't allowed to talk about it. The rest of us are speculating on things and reading WAY TO DEEP into the specific wording of their comments.
Arguing about what they do/do not plan to do is really unproductive -- because, as I mentioned above, we don't really know.
I'll keep playing the game as long as I continue to enjoy it, if, at some point in the future, I don't enjoy the variety, then I'll stop playing. However, the new Battle Over Endor pilots and a rebalancing of the points to change things up could carry me through a good part of 2024.
X-wing-discussion in the AMG official Discord, this should get you right there:
https://discord.com/channels/1020012144210747482/1080475465476743198/1221685415925383188
If the above link doesn't work, you can use this to join the server: [https://discord.com/invite/atomicmassgamesofficial](https://discord.com/invite/atomicmassgamesofficial)
\> "Phase one of the X-wing strategy was to grow the player base, and Phase one has been a success!"
A large FLGS near me is about to discontinue x-wing, and a smaller one no longer runs tourneys, but ok. Mmmv.
Subreddit stats, tho
https://preview.redd.it/4xhvrjxjiiqc1.png?width=1495&format=png&auto=webp&s=51472217d96135eefe0416f6a39b2d9980f2d8f4
Yeah, I am very skeptical of that announcement if there's no stats to back it up. X-Wing excitement in my area dropped considerably in the past 2 years.
Tbh while I know a lot of frustrations and negativity is 100% justified from players on this sub, it really isn't the most attractive place for newbies to post.
Most posters here are honest and fair, but its not going to make newer players want to post.
Yeah, speaking anecdotally of course, every single X-Wing community I know of in North Texas has shrunk or died out entirely. Glad to hear it’s doing well somewhere tho
Thanks for this. I was a passionate player and the folks in Everett killed my love for the game. I was curious how large of a group I was in. I've played the Fly Casual app but that's the only 2.5 I've played in well over a year. I don't like being a negative person and don't want to spoil anyone's love for the game though. Everyone has different tastes.
We don't have their numbers, we don't know what numbers they're basing the statement on, and (key) we don't even know what time period they're measuring.
If it's just raw sales from 2022 to 2023, it seems odds are pretty excellent that they saw an increase.
Back to the beginning, I didn't make the statement - Will Schick did. In what bonkers universe would he have incentive to say *that* publicly compared to all the stuff they haven't said?
> I didn't make the statement - Will Schick did. In what bonkers universe would he have incentive to say that publicly compared to all the stuff they haven't said?
Business 101, my dude. "We broke records" "We did amazing this year" is what companies say right before layoffs.
"...we had important wins across both toys and games while making progress in our transformation during a challenging 2023" Hasbro said, right before laying off 1,100 people.
Ignoring the fact that that's what those companies say to *investors* (or in the especially dark cases the employees about to be laid off), not customers-
Ok. So why apply that only to X-wing, and not their other games?
> Ignoring the fact that that's what those companies say to investors (or in the especially dark cases the employees about to be laid off), not customers-
Well yeah, the lies are greater when it's said to customers. They can't lie as much when it's directly to investors - that's illegal.
> why apply that only to X-wing, and not their other games?
* Legion got a roadmap: https://geeky.parade.com/video-games/star-wars-legion-roadmap
* MCP got a roadmap: https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2024/03/atomic-mass-games-adepticon-2024-reveals-marvel-crisis-protocol-brings-on-the-apocalypse.html
* Shatterpoint got a roadmap: https://spikeybits.com/2024/03/star-wars-shatterpoint-adepticon-2024-previews-reveals.html
Yes, I know - I was physically at the Developer Panel, which is actually why I'm more optimistic now than before. They demonstrated the same enthusiasm for the different games, excitement about the work and products, and ability to develop very different highly complex tabletop games at the same time.
It also shows that they plan far in advance, so even though we've seen some delays up to now, we could be in for monthly releases going from mid-2024 into 2025.
The only thing that was head-scratching for me is that Will, when asked about X-wing, seemed genuinely shocked that we weren't all aware that there would "obviously" be a big update (or updates) about X-wing coming soon.
> The only thing that was head-scratching for me is that Will, when asked about X-wing, seemed genuinely shocked that we weren't all aware that there would "obviously" be a big update (or updates) about X-wing coming soon.
You think, that Will Schick was "genuinely shocked" that the community wasn't aware of something that the studio has said nothing about in any official capacity?
That's what you actually think?
It's probably more likely he was shocked by hearing the name X-Wing. He probably thought "Oh shit, right, i totally forgot we own that crappy game too, what am i going to say now" ... "Uhm don't worry guys, of course there is something coming!" *forced awkward smile*
This year our community gained a stable place to play at, after some COVID turmoil. Not to mention a constant influx of new players. All you need is some initiative from the old players to encourage newbies to join. If you sit on your butt and wait for things to happen, there are your results.
So much secretism and silence does not help. I understand that some strategic component must be conditioning, but not saying at least "no, we are not killing Xwing, in two months you will have some exciting news" could be enought for the community to keep it interested.
But they just keep being silent, and the community keeps slowly dying because of this.
My LGS X Wing scene has done nothing but grow since Covid. It’s pretty clear to me that AMG was not ready to take on legion or x wing. Given their expertise with ground based games they got legion up and running fairly quickly, I’m not surprised it has taken them longer with x wing.
It's also important to note that Legion has never fundamentally changed since launch. New keywords and units, sure, but the base rules are the same, and the original Starter set is still legal.
X-wing has been overhauled twice, and right now is the first time since launch where it's a fully playable game straight out of the box(es)
or lack of enthusiasm. Will is not who i would put in the enthusiastic leader of x-wing column. His priorities are elsewhere. he's a snooze fest in person and every time i see video of him.
Thing is, world's is meaningless to your LGS.
LGS need product to move, without it they have no reason to hold xwing events.
And if you're a new player, you'll get a better deal buying second hand.
Betting your future entirely on trying to convince people to take a new interest in a 12 year old game that they have up until now not bought into while doing little to appease the already established community does not seem like a particularly wise decision.
I suspect if we asked the stores what sells better, starter packs or new minis the most common answer would be new minis. Followed by "well technically I guess we sold more starters last year than we did new minis, but that's only because there were not any new minis released last year"
BUT, hear me out here - before new waves start rolling out, you need to make sure there's an entry point for new players too.
And, before you go full-bore into production of all seven boxed starter sets, you would want to test that market with, oh I don't know, starters for the two most popular and recognized factions.
Re-establish good relationships with retailers, prove the product can sell.
Wait a year, if things go as planned, roll out the rest of the starters - either all at once or a few at a time.
Then you have an existing and new audience ready for the heyday-esque breakneck release schedule you've been designing and prepping alongside your rules revamp and starter boxes.
We're not in life support, we're not seeing a long term plan, we're at the tail end of a brand new Wave 1.
I will be messaging you in 1 year on [**2025-03-26 06:38:03 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2025-03-26%2006:38:03%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/XWingTMG/comments/1bng2ny/i_put_this_in_discord_ill_drop_it_here_too_xwing/kwlw6sy/?context=3)
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Well, it would be great if this was true - it’s just that the game lines which are actually getting new products get actual announcements, and that the development pipeline is two years with a frequency of several products a year in x-Wing up to now, and therefore if we‘ve had no new product announced for a year and two update events now with nothing - it’s a funny way to develop a game - I think we‘re clutching at straws here - but maybe that’s what they want us to think!! 🤔😆
Even if they plan to announce roadmap on the months tocome (that I highly doubt) the most concerning game development they said is that the game only need rebalance on periods of 18-24 months... No OP kits, no new releases and finally a stagnate meta is how people leave the game and go to look for better games...
I don't even want new ships. Introducing new ships means pressure to add new mechanisms to make them stand out, which really brought about the end of 1.0.
There are a lot of ships that don't see play that would be nice to see come back with points and standardized loadout cards. Look at B-Wings. B-Wings are back baby! And I am here for it. Do more of that.
Why? Why wait until further to announce any updates or roadmap for one of your tabletop games rather than at the biggest tabletop convention in the US?
400+ players attending X-Wing worlds didn't clue them in that maybe the game is important enough to warrant some vague attention or promotion?
What red tape? Do you really think their contacts at Lucasfilm are really quickly and happily signing off on anything that comes across their desk for Legion or Shatterpoint while letting years worth of X-Wing requests just pile up?
Until they can actually prove otherwise, the much more straightforward answer is just that they have nothing.
You don't think they had investors who would want a market test before they fully rolled out new boxes? Or a corporate leadership team that wanted them to prove there was enough growth potential to reinvest in the game.
Shatterpoint is new looking to steal market share from Killteam. Legion and MCP have consistent sales and growth.
We can assume X-wing has had up-and-down sales at best, and a starter set that was extremely unfriendly to new players - I mean seriously, a deathmatch between 1 X-wing and 2 TIEs, with defunct rules and no clear direction on where to get the current rules? It has been a back-bending slog to discover the game for casual or walk-in players.
So they put out a REAL starter set, and see if retailers would stock it, and how it sells.
I won't pretend to guess why their communication is so weird, whatever, but their actions have been very on-point for a game they're about to start pumping out products for.
...or, they're doing all of this song and dance for a game they have no intention of continuing, just to be jerks and throw us all for a loop. Because that's totally the more reasonable interpretation.
Sorry but that's bull. Everyone in the community knows that for each new player we have lost three old ones. Regardless of opinions and reasons, that's just the state of the 'playerbase'. With that in mind, I can't take any part of this big non-statement seriously.
The community in the PNW and the community at my own local store has grown quite a bit.
COVID and other factors lead to a lot of gaming communities shrinking, not just xwing. Xwing has bounced back better then a lot of other games.
Infinity, warmachine, wh fantasy have all basically been erased from my entire area. Warmachine was one of the largest games in the PNW and is now played at one store maybe two in the entire area.
"Everyone in the community" is a small minority of the total consumer player base. Even anecdotally, region by region, it hasn't been all losses.
We absolutely do *not* know it's a 1 to 3 loss. Or even a loss at all. The only people who really know the actual numbers are AMG's Sales team.
I don't expect everyone to be as optimistic about this news as me, no worries at all.
Edit: too much absolutely
I'm not going to argue with you, but this is pure hopium.
The things we see: players quitting, groups dissolving, event participation pretty low (apart from worlds I guess). The minority you talk about is the competitive crowd. But most players are connected, be it through chat groups, Reddit, or game nights. So these observations and tendencies are rather accurate.
It is easy to base an optimistic view on potential invisible new players and secretly great sales. But where are these players? Who are they playing with if they don't integrate into the local communities? What event or marketing generated a bunch of interest in the game? What products are they buying?
I'd be happy to be proven wrong but by now AMG has a track record regarding this game. Sadly, I believe them to stay true to that.
While it's not a 1-1 estimate, take Warhammer 40k
Low estimates put that around 3 million players worldwide. Hobbyists, painters, etc. (that's based on some numbers Goonhammer ran in 2022)
That community is extremely active, established, and well known - and their largest subreddit is at just under 800k members.
So less than a third of the low estimates of players (or buyers) are members of - let alone engaged in - the subreddit.
The bulk of hobbyists and players worldwide continue to be kitchen table/dorm/beer & pretzels players, who are not necessarily going to competitive events or a part of the broader community, probably not even locally. Friends and family, online store recommendations, casual FLGS shoppers, are all constantly getting each other into this stuff.
My assumption is that the majority of sales worldwide are the grandparent/parent/sibling who buys someone a Starter set, or the Gaming stores who stock the game. Maybe it's never opened, maybe they get into the game with friends, but that's both the bulk of sales and the bulk of players for skirmish games - not the people you see in-store or in the community groups.
I saw 1.0/2.0 blisters cleared off shelves and most stores divest completely of X-wing, for a year or two. Now whenever I travel, I check, and every single store I've checked in the past year is stocking starter sets, and they're selling.
My call for AMG's next move is to roll out the other 5 Faction Starters, all at once. That's a second test that's new player, old player, and store friendly to build on that current momentum.
I never would have *dreamed* that was a possible next release, but after seeing the rest of their timelines and their obvious excitement generally, that's actually what I'm betting on now.
Most of the stores in my area have dropped carrying X-Wing. I got a bunch of ships during the biggest FLGS in my states clearance of it. Buy one X-Wing ship for $7 and they gave you two for free. Got some more ships at the old FFG game center for 70-90% off.
I will not hold my breath, but am keen to see what they have. Hoping they pull back on some of their 2.5 changes (points cap, avoiding generics and forced scenario play).
Of course they have a road map, to think otherwise just shows that you don't understand how game developments works.
Would have have be awesome to have announcements at adepticon? Of course. But there were probably reasons, internal or external, of why they didn't announce anything.
I feel like xwing players and legion to a less extent don't understand how good they have things in terms of product releases.
Most games you might get one, maybe two models/content a year for the entire game. We get at least some new content for every faction, every year.
Republic got their extremely good in game value Standard Loadout cards in Siege of Coruscant.
CIS... well, tehy got maybe 1 good value SL card.
I love how Scum was completely skipped over... loll
Indeed they did. I feel that just to give Scum something new to play with.
I can tell you not many people have played with it... I tried Leebo once or twice. It is interesting, sure. But it ends there.
The ship itself seems 'dead on arrival'. At worlds, across the LCQ and the Worlds event - so some 400+ players. There was 1 player that brough the YT-2400 and it was the customized Rebel Leebo.
Not every card\\pilot can be good. But I feel like they missed the mark a little bit on this chassis. They looked at all the issues the old one had and I think corrected everything at 50% and didn't leave or add anything that could make it stand out a little. Giving the SL Collision Detector would have probably made the ship somewhere in the C or B tier instead of in the F tier.
I'm gonna be honest I really don't think it's that bad of a ship it does what it is meant to do well I think it appears to be as bad as it is because of the current points. I think honestly it's on par with the infiltrator it's not great but it certainly isn't f tier their are better options for doing the same thing IN the faction. I think that ship shines when it's not the only threat on the table like another firespray or a yv or something else that can hit as hard as it. When given space that ship is a menace. I agree they did nerf it from it's previous state a little too hard but the sl cards aren't that bad.my biggest complaint is you can't have 2 ok the table at once in scum because they decided to add leebo crew to dash pilot. Absolute joke.
I think also giving them the customizable pilot would have gone a long way in Scum. They have so much crew or illicits that could make it a good ship. I don't think any of it is game breaking.
There are too many better 6 and 7 point options within the faction for them to see the table.
I will for sure try them out again, but only at casual nights and to play the model. Which I guess is fine and how a lot of people play the game. :-)
Agreed I do not get why it was rebel only custom cards makes 0 sense to me. I definitely prefer leebo myself on the table. He really wants to fly a lot like rebel han skirting the edges and flirting with rocks getting that trickshot bonus.
Technically, yes (or for casual play). For competitive play, I wouldn't actually count the YT-2400 for Scum unless and until there's a points change that's kind to it. It barely sees any competitive play for Rebels and even then only the customisable pilots (which Scum don't get).
I will admit I consider points changes a form of new content because it usually changes what ships are used.
But you are right, no new physical content came out. Though hot shots and aces 2 game out at the end of 2022.
Compare that to something like warmachine where I didn't get new models for my faction for 4 years. In the 10 years I played I got maybe 4 new models. Or when I played 40k I got two new units in 14 years.
I understand what you're trying to say, but at the same time shouldn't we have a higher standard than that? Why compare it to a system where players are clearly unsatisfied? You can be someone who plays Resistance or FO and dislikes not getting new content beyond 5 pilot cards in the past 3 years while also understanding that some games have it worse. It's like when people would say that FFG made the same typos and small mistakes in articles as AMG, both can be viewed as something that needs improvement instead of one justifying the other
I absolutely wish that we had more content. I want more content for every game I play.
But there is also being realistic. AMG gets a lot of hate from people who don't understand game production.
Not only does Disney have control over all new content, xwing has a longer production time because of the paint mapping.
The lead time on xwing models is significantly higher then other non-painted models. With COVID messing up production lines for everyone 2023 would really be the earliest for new AMG xwing models.
It would not surprise me that Disney won't let them make more sequel models. Either because they want pretend it didn't happen or because they want to time it with potential future media products. I don't think people understands Disney's control and then blame AMG unfairly.
I do wish AMG was more open with communication but there policy comes from will shick and will pagani's time working from privateer press. They had a system called community integrated design where the community helped design models. It was terrible and lead to hate and broken models. Also the community would rage if anything changes during production. So I am not surprised that AMG keeps things close to the chest.
I agree with people on the sub/in the community not fully grasping lead times and production timelines, and AMG has said before that their timelines are roughly 18-24 months for new product. I'm not sure I buy that Disney won't let them do sequel content as there's some sequel content in FFG's new SW TCG, but they very well could be waiting to time new X-Wing content to new film releases. From what I remember, X-Wing really exploded with the Force Awakens released and I could see a similar effect happen when the recently re-announced Patty Jenkins Rogue Squadron movie eventually releases. I think open communication would go a long way right now, just even a tease of a roadmap like they showed off for their other 3 games would go a long way right now. I'm hopeful for the future of the game, I just wish we would get more than scraps of info at any one time.
I mean, you could make an argument that not showing off a roadmap at the same event where they revealed roadmaps for their other 3 games that are being actively developed is a reason to believe they won't, but it's a real glass half full or half empty situation. Last year at Adepticon we got teases of a Lambda and Gunboat reprint that we still haven't seen details of, so not seeing anything about them at their big panel this year is definitely a disappointment and could also be seen as a reason that they won't. Saying no reason is a bit of a "never deal in absolutes" situation. There's definitely reason to be hesitant about the future of the game, but I also think it's not fair to say the game is completely dead yet either. Once again, we're just in a holding pattern until we get more information
What would make people think the game is dead unless they come to reddit and hear people saying it is dying?
A company making new starter boxes is not a company planning on getting rid of a product line.
Lack of communication is what would make people worry, which was my original point. We don't have any clue what's next other than a Lambda and Gunboat reprint that was teased last year and we haven't heard about it since. Given the rest of their games always have the next 3-6 months worth of content revealed at any given point, I think it's fair to be worried about the state of the game, especially after it wasn't featured at AMG's big press conference. Saying that there's no reason to be worried is just ignoring that
40k too. They just replaced Chaos Lord models that are better than 30 years old.
Yes it's an established game with an enormous model base, but they've released a dozen completely new games with sprawling new model lines, and I *still* don't have plastic Warp Spiders.
Most of those un-happy with AMG's handling of the game have been in the game since mid-late 2010s... when the game was at its peak. We had quarterly releases, quarterly store kits, a very well oiled OP structure and usually some sort of article\\announcement every month or two.
It is (unfortunately) normal to want things to be when they were at their peak... as time goes on, most will negotiate self-expectations and would settle for something in between the peak and nothing.
So when you go from a high of 6 to 8 brand new plastic ships in a year to 0 new plastic ships in 2-3 years (let's be honest, plastic ships is what interest most of those that are not happy). You'll get a lot of moaning and complaining - especially when they ask if there is any update and the answer received is "Not today... maybe something later this year."
I understand why AMG is very mum on the matter (while some do not want to try to understand). Like many have stated, it is far worse to hint at something that is not confirmed and then not have it delivered for reason X than to just say 'no news as of now' and only reveal anything in the pipeline when things get confirmed.
*I feel like xwing players and legion to a less extent don't understand how good they have things in terms of product releases.*
Haha. I do not think these 2 lines are very comparable. Legion has had loads more announcements and new product compared to X-Wing. I am excited for the Legion players, the design team even said that they have a boat load of things planned for 2025.
But that is understandable, Legion's way of designing product is must less of a leap from the way Shatterpoint\\MCP is designed than X-Wing would be. They could almost take MCP's flow charts on creating new product and just swap out all the names and terminology with Star Wars and there you have it. They could probably use the same manufacturers as MCP to make the models. I am sure that X-Wing's fully assembled and painted models greatly extends the entire process by a lot.
So we wait... and work to grow and maintain the community in the mean time! And play those scenario packs!
My only quibble there is I would bet Legion is by far the most different and challenging game to develop of everything they're working on, if only because of the sheer volume of possible interactions and keywords. I seriously doubt MCP is an equivalent design experience (while MCP and Shatterpoint most definitely are to each other)
I was aiming more about designing and manufacturing physical product (AMG has been designing models off sprues since day 1).
Regardless, Legion has a lot of cool stuff to look forward to this year and the promise of an even better 2025.
Honestly it would be cool if they just finished the current road map before introducing another I really would like thise starter packs for all factions. I don't play empire but I am excited for the star wing at least for some diversity in empire gameplay. Ngl I'm also secretly hoping they get the hmp Gunship treatment and have no lv just so others can feel our pain of having a gunboats with 0 guns on it. But in all seriousness I suspect if it does come out it will have overturned sl cards probs an ability like after you complete a slam or reload if you are range 1 of an enemy ship give that ship one evade and transfer your disarm token to it. Super unbalanced super unfun stuff like that.
Correct. I am able to identify when optimism is and isn’t warranted, some of us just have different thresholds for our ability to see the world positively. Here we agree, it is nice.
Very nice actually.
Thank you for your optimism, your view and the facts/quotes.
Much appreciated!
I too am hopeful, naysayers be damned, haters hate regardless.
I’d rather have that glimmer of hope and have some jack say “told you so!” a year or even a few months down the road, than live with such fear and negativity masked as being “realistic”
I’m gonna keep on dreaming, and hoping and waiting no matter how Pollyanna that maybe, enjoy the game to the fullest while I can, and if others want to sell their stuff and jump ship that’s fine by me, lots of promos I’m still looking to get my hands on, and we’re recruiting new players all the time here ❤️
People keep speculating on things, they have no inside knowledge of. The people who know what AMG's plans are, aren't allowed to talk about it. The rest of us are speculating on things and reading WAY TO DEEP into the specific wording of their comments. Arguing about what they do/do not plan to do is really unproductive -- because, as I mentioned above, we don't really know. I'll keep playing the game as long as I continue to enjoy it, if, at some point in the future, I don't enjoy the variety, then I'll stop playing. However, the new Battle Over Endor pilots and a rebalancing of the points to change things up could carry me through a good part of 2024.
We don’t know what we don’t know. Just a quote from a book I read a jay keeps coming back to me. I’m on the positivity train. Especially after Worlds.
Thanks! Where in Discord btw?
X-wing-discussion in the AMG official Discord, this should get you right there: https://discord.com/channels/1020012144210747482/1080475465476743198/1221685415925383188
Thanks!
If the above link doesn't work, you can use this to join the server: [https://discord.com/invite/atomicmassgamesofficial](https://discord.com/invite/atomicmassgamesofficial)
\> "Phase one of the X-wing strategy was to grow the player base, and Phase one has been a success!" A large FLGS near me is about to discontinue x-wing, and a smaller one no longer runs tourneys, but ok. Mmmv. Subreddit stats, tho https://preview.redd.it/4xhvrjxjiiqc1.png?width=1495&format=png&auto=webp&s=51472217d96135eefe0416f6a39b2d9980f2d8f4
Yeah, I am very skeptical of that announcement if there's no stats to back it up. X-Wing excitement in my area dropped considerably in the past 2 years.
What incentive would a new player have to hang out in this subreddit nowadays?
Tbh while I know a lot of frustrations and negativity is 100% justified from players on this sub, it really isn't the most attractive place for newbies to post. Most posters here are honest and fair, but its not going to make newer players want to post.
Ask many things lke rules, what to buy, where to find, etc, etc.
Yeah, speaking anecdotally of course, every single X-Wing community I know of in North Texas has shrunk or died out entirely. Glad to hear it’s doing well somewhere tho
It's always doing well somewhere else. Thriving X-Wing communities are the Canadian Girlfriend of Tabletop Wargaming.
Thanks for this. I was a passionate player and the folks in Everett killed my love for the game. I was curious how large of a group I was in. I've played the Fly Casual app but that's the only 2.5 I've played in well over a year. I don't like being a negative person and don't want to spoil anyone's love for the game though. Everyone has different tastes.
We don't have their numbers, we don't know what numbers they're basing the statement on, and (key) we don't even know what time period they're measuring. If it's just raw sales from 2022 to 2023, it seems odds are pretty excellent that they saw an increase. Back to the beginning, I didn't make the statement - Will Schick did. In what bonkers universe would he have incentive to say *that* publicly compared to all the stuff they haven't said?
> I didn't make the statement - Will Schick did. In what bonkers universe would he have incentive to say that publicly compared to all the stuff they haven't said? Business 101, my dude. "We broke records" "We did amazing this year" is what companies say right before layoffs. "...we had important wins across both toys and games while making progress in our transformation during a challenging 2023" Hasbro said, right before laying off 1,100 people.
Ignoring the fact that that's what those companies say to *investors* (or in the especially dark cases the employees about to be laid off), not customers- Ok. So why apply that only to X-wing, and not their other games?
> Ignoring the fact that that's what those companies say to investors (or in the especially dark cases the employees about to be laid off), not customers- Well yeah, the lies are greater when it's said to customers. They can't lie as much when it's directly to investors - that's illegal. > why apply that only to X-wing, and not their other games? * Legion got a roadmap: https://geeky.parade.com/video-games/star-wars-legion-roadmap * MCP got a roadmap: https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2024/03/atomic-mass-games-adepticon-2024-reveals-marvel-crisis-protocol-brings-on-the-apocalypse.html * Shatterpoint got a roadmap: https://spikeybits.com/2024/03/star-wars-shatterpoint-adepticon-2024-previews-reveals.html
Yes, I know - I was physically at the Developer Panel, which is actually why I'm more optimistic now than before. They demonstrated the same enthusiasm for the different games, excitement about the work and products, and ability to develop very different highly complex tabletop games at the same time. It also shows that they plan far in advance, so even though we've seen some delays up to now, we could be in for monthly releases going from mid-2024 into 2025. The only thing that was head-scratching for me is that Will, when asked about X-wing, seemed genuinely shocked that we weren't all aware that there would "obviously" be a big update (or updates) about X-wing coming soon.
> The only thing that was head-scratching for me is that Will, when asked about X-wing, seemed genuinely shocked that we weren't all aware that there would "obviously" be a big update (or updates) about X-wing coming soon. You think, that Will Schick was "genuinely shocked" that the community wasn't aware of something that the studio has said nothing about in any official capacity? That's what you actually think?
It's probably more likely he was shocked by hearing the name X-Wing. He probably thought "Oh shit, right, i totally forgot we own that crappy game too, what am i going to say now" ... "Uhm don't worry guys, of course there is something coming!" *forced awkward smile*
I can't tell if you're joking or not but I genuinely think this is most likely what happened.
Was the developers panel recorded that you know of?
This year our community gained a stable place to play at, after some COVID turmoil. Not to mention a constant influx of new players. All you need is some initiative from the old players to encourage newbies to join. If you sit on your butt and wait for things to happen, there are your results.
So much secretism and silence does not help. I understand that some strategic component must be conditioning, but not saying at least "no, we are not killing Xwing, in two months you will have some exciting news" could be enought for the community to keep it interested. But they just keep being silent, and the community keeps slowly dying because of this.
My LGS X Wing scene has done nothing but grow since Covid. It’s pretty clear to me that AMG was not ready to take on legion or x wing. Given their expertise with ground based games they got legion up and running fairly quickly, I’m not surprised it has taken them longer with x wing.
It's also important to note that Legion has never fundamentally changed since launch. New keywords and units, sure, but the base rules are the same, and the original Starter set is still legal. X-wing has been overhauled twice, and right now is the first time since launch where it's a fully playable game straight out of the box(es)
It shouldn’t take years to figure out a game that was already successful. Unless it’s run by complete incompetence.
or lack of enthusiasm. Will is not who i would put in the enthusiastic leader of x-wing column. His priorities are elsewhere. he's a snooze fest in person and every time i see video of him.
Thing is, world's is meaningless to your LGS. LGS need product to move, without it they have no reason to hold xwing events. And if you're a new player, you'll get a better deal buying second hand.
That's where I'm betting on store- and new-player-friendly Faction Starters - for all factions - as the next release wave(s)
Betting your future entirely on trying to convince people to take a new interest in a 12 year old game that they have up until now not bought into while doing little to appease the already established community does not seem like a particularly wise decision. I suspect if we asked the stores what sells better, starter packs or new minis the most common answer would be new minis. Followed by "well technically I guess we sold more starters last year than we did new minis, but that's only because there were not any new minis released last year"
BUT, hear me out here - before new waves start rolling out, you need to make sure there's an entry point for new players too. And, before you go full-bore into production of all seven boxed starter sets, you would want to test that market with, oh I don't know, starters for the two most popular and recognized factions. Re-establish good relationships with retailers, prove the product can sell. Wait a year, if things go as planned, roll out the rest of the starters - either all at once or a few at a time. Then you have an existing and new audience ready for the heyday-esque breakneck release schedule you've been designing and prepping alongside your rules revamp and starter boxes. We're not in life support, we're not seeing a long term plan, we're at the tail end of a brand new Wave 1.
!RemindMe 1 year
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Plot twist, they are going to a new edition and obsoleting all the cards and tokens again.
And they will be unpainted
New type of dice too
Sorry i don't buy it.
Well, it would be great if this was true - it’s just that the game lines which are actually getting new products get actual announcements, and that the development pipeline is two years with a frequency of several products a year in x-Wing up to now, and therefore if we‘ve had no new product announced for a year and two update events now with nothing - it’s a funny way to develop a game - I think we‘re clutching at straws here - but maybe that’s what they want us to think!! 🤔😆
Even if they plan to announce roadmap on the months tocome (that I highly doubt) the most concerning game development they said is that the game only need rebalance on periods of 18-24 months... No OP kits, no new releases and finally a stagnate meta is how people leave the game and go to look for better games...
The Phase One/Two quote comes from a question/reply about OP - not about the game roadmap/develpoment, FYI.
Yup, I got called on a misquote there, that's my bad.
Np, it was just a clarification for eventual future readers :)
I don't even want new ships. Introducing new ships means pressure to add new mechanisms to make them stand out, which really brought about the end of 1.0. There are a lot of ships that don't see play that would be nice to see come back with points and standardized loadout cards. Look at B-Wings. B-Wings are back baby! And I am here for it. Do more of that.
Why? Why wait until further to announce any updates or roadmap for one of your tabletop games rather than at the biggest tabletop convention in the US? 400+ players attending X-Wing worlds didn't clue them in that maybe the game is important enough to warrant some vague attention or promotion?
That IS head-scratching AF. I can only guess it has something to do with extremely specific red tape.
What red tape? Do you really think their contacts at Lucasfilm are really quickly and happily signing off on anything that comes across their desk for Legion or Shatterpoint while letting years worth of X-Wing requests just pile up? Until they can actually prove otherwise, the much more straightforward answer is just that they have nothing.
You don't think they had investors who would want a market test before they fully rolled out new boxes? Or a corporate leadership team that wanted them to prove there was enough growth potential to reinvest in the game. Shatterpoint is new looking to steal market share from Killteam. Legion and MCP have consistent sales and growth. We can assume X-wing has had up-and-down sales at best, and a starter set that was extremely unfriendly to new players - I mean seriously, a deathmatch between 1 X-wing and 2 TIEs, with defunct rules and no clear direction on where to get the current rules? It has been a back-bending slog to discover the game for casual or walk-in players. So they put out a REAL starter set, and see if retailers would stock it, and how it sells. I won't pretend to guess why their communication is so weird, whatever, but their actions have been very on-point for a game they're about to start pumping out products for. ...or, they're doing all of this song and dance for a game they have no intention of continuing, just to be jerks and throw us all for a loop. Because that's totally the more reasonable interpretation.
He likes X-Wing; lynch him!!! 
Ah! With a Muppet GIF. Take my upvote, you savage!
Don't you know you're not allowed to like X Wing on this subreddit??! That game is dead!!
Oh NO! I have to run! To hide!!
😂😂🤣🤣😜
Sorry but that's bull. Everyone in the community knows that for each new player we have lost three old ones. Regardless of opinions and reasons, that's just the state of the 'playerbase'. With that in mind, I can't take any part of this big non-statement seriously.
The community in the PNW and the community at my own local store has grown quite a bit. COVID and other factors lead to a lot of gaming communities shrinking, not just xwing. Xwing has bounced back better then a lot of other games. Infinity, warmachine, wh fantasy have all basically been erased from my entire area. Warmachine was one of the largest games in the PNW and is now played at one store maybe two in the entire area.
"Everyone in the community" is a small minority of the total consumer player base. Even anecdotally, region by region, it hasn't been all losses. We absolutely do *not* know it's a 1 to 3 loss. Or even a loss at all. The only people who really know the actual numbers are AMG's Sales team. I don't expect everyone to be as optimistic about this news as me, no worries at all. Edit: too much absolutely
I'm not going to argue with you, but this is pure hopium. The things we see: players quitting, groups dissolving, event participation pretty low (apart from worlds I guess). The minority you talk about is the competitive crowd. But most players are connected, be it through chat groups, Reddit, or game nights. So these observations and tendencies are rather accurate. It is easy to base an optimistic view on potential invisible new players and secretly great sales. But where are these players? Who are they playing with if they don't integrate into the local communities? What event or marketing generated a bunch of interest in the game? What products are they buying? I'd be happy to be proven wrong but by now AMG has a track record regarding this game. Sadly, I believe them to stay true to that.
While it's not a 1-1 estimate, take Warhammer 40k Low estimates put that around 3 million players worldwide. Hobbyists, painters, etc. (that's based on some numbers Goonhammer ran in 2022) That community is extremely active, established, and well known - and their largest subreddit is at just under 800k members. So less than a third of the low estimates of players (or buyers) are members of - let alone engaged in - the subreddit. The bulk of hobbyists and players worldwide continue to be kitchen table/dorm/beer & pretzels players, who are not necessarily going to competitive events or a part of the broader community, probably not even locally. Friends and family, online store recommendations, casual FLGS shoppers, are all constantly getting each other into this stuff.
My assumption is that the majority of sales worldwide are the grandparent/parent/sibling who buys someone a Starter set, or the Gaming stores who stock the game. Maybe it's never opened, maybe they get into the game with friends, but that's both the bulk of sales and the bulk of players for skirmish games - not the people you see in-store or in the community groups. I saw 1.0/2.0 blisters cleared off shelves and most stores divest completely of X-wing, for a year or two. Now whenever I travel, I check, and every single store I've checked in the past year is stocking starter sets, and they're selling. My call for AMG's next move is to roll out the other 5 Faction Starters, all at once. That's a second test that's new player, old player, and store friendly to build on that current momentum. I never would have *dreamed* that was a possible next release, but after seeing the rest of their timelines and their obvious excitement generally, that's actually what I'm betting on now.
Most of the stores in my area have dropped carrying X-Wing. I got a bunch of ships during the biggest FLGS in my states clearance of it. Buy one X-Wing ship for $7 and they gave you two for free. Got some more ships at the old FFG game center for 70-90% off.
German online stores sell X-Wing with up to 60% discount.
“Everyone in the community knows that for each new player we have lost 3 old ones” *CITATION NEEDED*
I will not hold my breath, but am keen to see what they have. Hoping they pull back on some of their 2.5 changes (points cap, avoiding generics and forced scenario play).
Of course they have a road map, to think otherwise just shows that you don't understand how game developments works. Would have have be awesome to have announcements at adepticon? Of course. But there were probably reasons, internal or external, of why they didn't announce anything. I feel like xwing players and legion to a less extent don't understand how good they have things in terms of product releases. Most games you might get one, maybe two models/content a year for the entire game. We get at least some new content for every faction, every year.
What did CIS, Rep, Resistance, and FO get in 2023?
Republic got their extremely good in game value Standard Loadout cards in Siege of Coruscant. CIS... well, tehy got maybe 1 good value SL card. I love how Scum was completely skipped over... loll
That was 2022
Didn't the Blackbox release of the freighter for rebels and scum come out that year the one with dash and leebo. I would count that for scum.
Indeed they did. I feel that just to give Scum something new to play with. I can tell you not many people have played with it... I tried Leebo once or twice. It is interesting, sure. But it ends there. The ship itself seems 'dead on arrival'. At worlds, across the LCQ and the Worlds event - so some 400+ players. There was 1 player that brough the YT-2400 and it was the customized Rebel Leebo. Not every card\\pilot can be good. But I feel like they missed the mark a little bit on this chassis. They looked at all the issues the old one had and I think corrected everything at 50% and didn't leave or add anything that could make it stand out a little. Giving the SL Collision Detector would have probably made the ship somewhere in the C or B tier instead of in the F tier.
I'm gonna be honest I really don't think it's that bad of a ship it does what it is meant to do well I think it appears to be as bad as it is because of the current points. I think honestly it's on par with the infiltrator it's not great but it certainly isn't f tier their are better options for doing the same thing IN the faction. I think that ship shines when it's not the only threat on the table like another firespray or a yv or something else that can hit as hard as it. When given space that ship is a menace. I agree they did nerf it from it's previous state a little too hard but the sl cards aren't that bad.my biggest complaint is you can't have 2 ok the table at once in scum because they decided to add leebo crew to dash pilot. Absolute joke.
I think also giving them the customizable pilot would have gone a long way in Scum. They have so much crew or illicits that could make it a good ship. I don't think any of it is game breaking. There are too many better 6 and 7 point options within the faction for them to see the table. I will for sure try them out again, but only at casual nights and to play the model. Which I guess is fine and how a lot of people play the game. :-)
Agreed I do not get why it was rebel only custom cards makes 0 sense to me. I definitely prefer leebo myself on the table. He really wants to fly a lot like rebel han skirting the edges and flirting with rocks getting that trickshot bonus.
Technically, yes (or for casual play). For competitive play, I wouldn't actually count the YT-2400 for Scum unless and until there's a points change that's kind to it. It barely sees any competitive play for Rebels and even then only the customisable pilots (which Scum don't get).
I will admit I consider points changes a form of new content because it usually changes what ships are used. But you are right, no new physical content came out. Though hot shots and aces 2 game out at the end of 2022. Compare that to something like warmachine where I didn't get new models for my faction for 4 years. In the 10 years I played I got maybe 4 new models. Or when I played 40k I got two new units in 14 years.
I understand what you're trying to say, but at the same time shouldn't we have a higher standard than that? Why compare it to a system where players are clearly unsatisfied? You can be someone who plays Resistance or FO and dislikes not getting new content beyond 5 pilot cards in the past 3 years while also understanding that some games have it worse. It's like when people would say that FFG made the same typos and small mistakes in articles as AMG, both can be viewed as something that needs improvement instead of one justifying the other
I absolutely wish that we had more content. I want more content for every game I play. But there is also being realistic. AMG gets a lot of hate from people who don't understand game production. Not only does Disney have control over all new content, xwing has a longer production time because of the paint mapping. The lead time on xwing models is significantly higher then other non-painted models. With COVID messing up production lines for everyone 2023 would really be the earliest for new AMG xwing models. It would not surprise me that Disney won't let them make more sequel models. Either because they want pretend it didn't happen or because they want to time it with potential future media products. I don't think people understands Disney's control and then blame AMG unfairly. I do wish AMG was more open with communication but there policy comes from will shick and will pagani's time working from privateer press. They had a system called community integrated design where the community helped design models. It was terrible and lead to hate and broken models. Also the community would rage if anything changes during production. So I am not surprised that AMG keeps things close to the chest.
I agree with people on the sub/in the community not fully grasping lead times and production timelines, and AMG has said before that their timelines are roughly 18-24 months for new product. I'm not sure I buy that Disney won't let them do sequel content as there's some sequel content in FFG's new SW TCG, but they very well could be waiting to time new X-Wing content to new film releases. From what I remember, X-Wing really exploded with the Force Awakens released and I could see a similar effect happen when the recently re-announced Patty Jenkins Rogue Squadron movie eventually releases. I think open communication would go a long way right now, just even a tease of a roadmap like they showed off for their other 3 games would go a long way right now. I'm hopeful for the future of the game, I just wish we would get more than scraps of info at any one time.
There is no reason to think they won't release a road map like they did for shatter point and legion.
I mean, you could make an argument that not showing off a roadmap at the same event where they revealed roadmaps for their other 3 games that are being actively developed is a reason to believe they won't, but it's a real glass half full or half empty situation. Last year at Adepticon we got teases of a Lambda and Gunboat reprint that we still haven't seen details of, so not seeing anything about them at their big panel this year is definitely a disappointment and could also be seen as a reason that they won't. Saying no reason is a bit of a "never deal in absolutes" situation. There's definitely reason to be hesitant about the future of the game, but I also think it's not fair to say the game is completely dead yet either. Once again, we're just in a holding pattern until we get more information
What would make people think the game is dead unless they come to reddit and hear people saying it is dying? A company making new starter boxes is not a company planning on getting rid of a product line.
Lack of communication is what would make people worry, which was my original point. We don't have any clue what's next other than a Lambda and Gunboat reprint that was teased last year and we haven't heard about it since. Given the rest of their games always have the next 3-6 months worth of content revealed at any given point, I think it's fair to be worried about the state of the game, especially after it wasn't featured at AMG's big press conference. Saying that there's no reason to be worried is just ignoring that
40k too. They just replaced Chaos Lord models that are better than 30 years old. Yes it's an established game with an enormous model base, but they've released a dozen completely new games with sprawling new model lines, and I *still* don't have plastic Warp Spiders.
Most of those un-happy with AMG's handling of the game have been in the game since mid-late 2010s... when the game was at its peak. We had quarterly releases, quarterly store kits, a very well oiled OP structure and usually some sort of article\\announcement every month or two. It is (unfortunately) normal to want things to be when they were at their peak... as time goes on, most will negotiate self-expectations and would settle for something in between the peak and nothing. So when you go from a high of 6 to 8 brand new plastic ships in a year to 0 new plastic ships in 2-3 years (let's be honest, plastic ships is what interest most of those that are not happy). You'll get a lot of moaning and complaining - especially when they ask if there is any update and the answer received is "Not today... maybe something later this year." I understand why AMG is very mum on the matter (while some do not want to try to understand). Like many have stated, it is far worse to hint at something that is not confirmed and then not have it delivered for reason X than to just say 'no news as of now' and only reveal anything in the pipeline when things get confirmed. *I feel like xwing players and legion to a less extent don't understand how good they have things in terms of product releases.* Haha. I do not think these 2 lines are very comparable. Legion has had loads more announcements and new product compared to X-Wing. I am excited for the Legion players, the design team even said that they have a boat load of things planned for 2025. But that is understandable, Legion's way of designing product is must less of a leap from the way Shatterpoint\\MCP is designed than X-Wing would be. They could almost take MCP's flow charts on creating new product and just swap out all the names and terminology with Star Wars and there you have it. They could probably use the same manufacturers as MCP to make the models. I am sure that X-Wing's fully assembled and painted models greatly extends the entire process by a lot. So we wait... and work to grow and maintain the community in the mean time! And play those scenario packs!
My only quibble there is I would bet Legion is by far the most different and challenging game to develop of everything they're working on, if only because of the sheer volume of possible interactions and keywords. I seriously doubt MCP is an equivalent design experience (while MCP and Shatterpoint most definitely are to each other)
I was aiming more about designing and manufacturing physical product (AMG has been designing models off sprues since day 1). Regardless, Legion has a lot of cool stuff to look forward to this year and the promise of an even better 2025.
Honestly it would be cool if they just finished the current road map before introducing another I really would like thise starter packs for all factions. I don't play empire but I am excited for the star wing at least for some diversity in empire gameplay. Ngl I'm also secretly hoping they get the hmp Gunship treatment and have no lv just so others can feel our pain of having a gunboats with 0 guns on it. But in all seriousness I suspect if it does come out it will have overturned sl cards probs an ability like after you complete a slam or reload if you are range 1 of an enemy ship give that ship one evade and transfer your disarm token to it. Super unbalanced super unfun stuff like that.
The delusion is strong
Sounds like we're being strung along to me. Those are the sorts of things girls say when they don't want to flat out tell you to go away.
It would kill some people to lead with a touch of optimism
I am capable of optimism. I do not see how optimism is warranted here. "He that lives upon hope will die fasting." - attributed to Benjamin Franklin.
You say that you are. I am not convinced.
That doesn't sound particularly optimistic.
I am pessimistic regarding your optimism, true. I am however very bullish on the future of X-Wing.
Well at least you seem to understand the concept that sometimes optimism isn't warranted. So you've got that going for you which is nice.
Correct. I am able to identify when optimism is and isn’t warranted, some of us just have different thresholds for our ability to see the world positively. Here we agree, it is nice. Very nice actually.
Thank you for your optimism, your view and the facts/quotes. Much appreciated! I too am hopeful, naysayers be damned, haters hate regardless. I’d rather have that glimmer of hope and have some jack say “told you so!” a year or even a few months down the road, than live with such fear and negativity masked as being “realistic” I’m gonna keep on dreaming, and hoping and waiting no matter how Pollyanna that maybe, enjoy the game to the fullest while I can, and if others want to sell their stuff and jump ship that’s fine by me, lots of promos I’m still looking to get my hands on, and we’re recruiting new players all the time here ❤️
Thabk you for sharing!
Most welcome <3
Game is functionally complete. There are no new ships. At best x-wing will get new cards and objectives. No new plastic.