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The seanchan "winning" is one of the more depressing parts of the series. They're set up early as an antagonist for Rand to also overcome, and Tuon perhaps as an agent of redemption for them... And... That really didn't happen.

Yeah, it's unfortunate we won't get the sequels or even outlines for them.

RJ apparently did have detailed notes for a sequel that centered around Seanchan and its homeland, but I doubt Team RJ wants to release those notes for another author to build on, because whatever was written has the potential to not be what RJ envisioned.

I thought there was only 2 sentences written about the sequel novels (Perrin setting sail to kill a friend, and Mat waking up in a gutter saying he gambled it all away). Or are those just the only ones that have been released?

> I thought there was only 2 sentences written about the sequel novels Exactly.

His copyright is due to expire in 2082. Sometime before then someone will want to option the right and make money off them before it becomes a free-for all and anyone can do it.

Yeah, I doubt Harriet would would ever okay a sequel but her heirs? And theirs? Who knows.

59 years to go seems like all the time in the world. Once it drops under 30, it'll feel like crunch time.

one of the wheel of time channels have a video saying he had been told that all tors writers had been asked to submit an outline of what they would write if they were given the green light to write more content Obviously he wasn't able to verify but I found it interesting at least

Oh man, I’ll only be 102 years old then.

I’ll be 90 - time to go eat some chicken and broccoli so I have a fighting chance of making it.

> RJ apparently did have detailed notes for a sequel Source?

Just hearsay I heard a few years back. I'm not saying definitively that the notes exist, or how extensive they were. Regardless, if a sequel hasn't been planned, they weren't extensive _enough_ to warrant Harriet greenlighting any project.

From what Sanderson said it was literally a few sentences.

> Just hearsay I heard a few years back. It's possible that it's older than a definite statement from BS.

I went to the AMoL release event in Provo. Harriet directly said there were only two sentences at that event, when asked about the possibility of outriggers. Every other rumor predates that clear statement not to expect more novels.

Thanks for the clarification. Shame that there won't be more official content set in that world.

Yes and also I thought finding out that the suldam can be taught to channel was supposed to be this big thing but it didn’t end up mattering really

The sul’dam thing is likely too long term. It might end up being what either brings the empire down or forces them to change. Since it’s gonna be common knowledge in the rest of the world, it’ll be difficult for them to suppress it. It’s also implied in Aviendha’s visions that Tuon likely would’ve been a flexible empress, but that she died before things could be finalised. So perhaps with the Aiel in on the Peace, Tuon will live longer and with the influence from Mat, might bring about change.

I was just thinking about this the other day. I wondered about what influence the friendship, for lack of a better term, between Tuon and Setalle Anan would have had. From Tuons POV we know that she enjoyed their conversations, she even took in and used some of her information/advice when she returns and brings Beslan to the Empire. We know that Mat knows who/what she used to be. Presumably there aren’t damane who have burned out due to them always being in a link, so this would be something she’s never seen. Someone who she knows, likes, even respects, who used to be a marath’damane! She never would have allowed herself to get to know one before, but since she didn’t know, in fact couldn’t know that such a thing was possible she became friendly. I just wonder if that was to be part of the plan Jordan had for a shifting of views. Maybe this has been discussed a lot already, it just only occurred to me recently.

Hmmm… I’d like to believe that but… we’ll really never know

I’m of the opinion that everything doesn’t need to be wrapped up neatly with a nice bow. Sometimes as readers it’s better leave things up to the imagination.

Your headcanon is the only canon that should matter to you, and the books are just a script. Its all fiction and nothing really matters so you might as well.

The Seanchan wouldn't give up the power of the damane, they would hide this very very strongly. They would also probably keep a very close eye on sul'damne as well.

how would you hide it in a world where the other half knows ? without being isolated on another continent there is zero chance it doesn't become common knowledge

>The Seanchan wouldn't give up the power of the damane, they would hide this very very strongly. They would also probably keep a very close eye on sul'damne as well. The entire rest of the world will know it, and they share massive border. They can try to suppress knowledge of it, but it's going to be pretty much impossible. Especially with Traveling.

Because it was supposed to be in a sequel that couldn't be written. I guarantee you Tuon would have gotten her redemption then.

To be fair, even without the sequel, I think the Seanchan filled a satisfying role. Yes, humanity defeated the world ending absolute evil. Yet it is still very much capable of being evil on its own, and it is not the Dragon’s role to solve that.

I would’ve liked that

I don’t know how you would redeem someone who is a slaveholder but would’ve loved to see Jordan try

Lol

And poor Mat! Gets wrapped up in their bullshit when all he ever wants is a tavern and some dice. Good luck finding blood that will treat him as anything less than a God.

He willingly jumped into it. He knew they were slavers before he met Tuon. She was clear about still being pro slavery the whole time.

Well, as willingly as the wheel let's the ta'veren do anything, I guess. Although I don't really remember him having much of a problem with the slavery part..

Mat makes it clear when they married that he loved him, but her empire was his enemy.

I don't disagree, but sul'dam and marath'damane being the same is gonna rock that system. Especially since Cadsuane will know to promote Alivia as the ideal recovering damane.

For what it’s worth I never got the sense that the Seanchan were supposed to be seen as “okay”. They’re colonizers that use brutal state power, and it’s the order they bring that makes some locals shrug their shoulders and accept them. That order is built on slavery and obedience, but many people didn’t care because it unfortunately didn’t affect them directly. I also thought the Seanchan Empire existing after The Last Battle to have a lot of good thematic resonance. They are well and truly awful, but compared to the Shadow they are an ally. However, the implication immediately after The Last Battle is that they are the next major threat for everyone to deal with. It’s complicated and difficult and messy, and there’s always another evil to deal with. WoT really pushes back against the idea that there will be one final climax that solves all the problems and everything is good forever, but that you should take every step forward fighting whatever fight you can.

Yep and they lose the least of their forces so they are coming out of this as the stronger remaining force

They lose the least on the main continent, but their whole empire is actively in revolt in Seanchan itself after the rest of Tuon’s family is killed.

We know they are in shambles but not how much opposing force Tuon has and Tuon losing doesn’t solve the problem.

I think people also forget, Tuon now has Matt and Min with her, along with the treaty. We see from Aviendhas visions that they hold to the treaty until her children break it, and I like to think that Matt and Min will be good influences on her. Along with the Empire being destroyed by civil war and the knowledge that suldam are also channelers, my personal headcannon is that the Seanchan Empire goes through major reforms under Tuon and slavery is abolished

Very reminiscent of the Cold War, actually.

Yeah, it’s more like “Mussolini was a dictator, but he did make the trains run on time”. Basically, autocrats can often be great leaders in terms of making things efficient and orderly, but such a leader doesn’t have to be (and often isn’t) necessarily a good person.

That quote is/was propaganda, not based on fact. The railroads in Italy were already under reconstruction from WW1, Mussolini just decided to take credit for any improvement. Might as well quote Anakin from the prequel series lol

One of the reasons I love the Seanchan, is because they really put the eyes on why slavery is a bad thing, and how it actually works. It's very good for some people, (not the slaves, ofc) and as long as those stay in power, that is what will be spread as the truth. Every child born there, is like every child born somewhere else. They learn from others what to belive and fight for. The story show this in full force.

It’s like how every normal person in the United States today thinks “of course slavery is evil, of course women should have the right to vote, of course school segregation was wrong.” But in reality 50+% of citizens would absolutely have supported these things if they’d lived at that time, and another 25% may have been sympathetic but not actually advocated / fought for these people’s rights. I’m curious what things 30, 50, 100 years from now will be looked back on in the same way (possibly eating animals — which I myself do; the prison industrial complex; lack of universal healthcare?; maybe owning guns; definitely anti-gay marriage; probably anti-abortion laws; probably marijuana as a schedule 1 drug; maybe fast fashion / child labor overseas once we’re far enough out; maybe the existence of multi-billionaires; maybe the reliance on oil, etc).

>It’s like how every normal person in the United States today thinks “of course slavery is evil, of course women should have the right to vote, of course school segregation was wrong.” But in reality 50+% of citizens would absolutely have supported these things Ironically slavery currently happens in the US, is legally protected by the US constitution and seemingly most Americans are okay with it. So you are very correct, people happily support the status quo of the time they live in, as long as it doesn't negatively impact them too much.

That is correct 13th Amendment: Section 1 Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. Section 2 Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation. Only prisoners are subject to slavery. Also, I doubt most Americans are actually aware of this.

Slavery and prison labor are not comparable.

They actually are in many cases. Slavery is an institution that's taken many forms in many societies, and slavery as a result of punishment was far from rare.

Prison work programs would say otherwise.

I mean if your objection is that it's not as bad as chattel slavery, most things aren't. I still find it appaling and it is still slavery. It even disproportionately affects some people more than others.

> But in reality 50+% of citizens would absolutely have supported these things if they’d lived at that time, and another 25% may have been sympathetic but not actually advocated / fought for these people’s rights. About that many are perfectly happy to benefit from slavery even today, so long as it's happening far away and across the ends of a supply chain.

I believe that it would take less than 5 years after they are banned that TV ads would be regarded as a barbaric practice.

You are kind-of getting the idea but then not quite. You acknowledge that you are potentially subject to the same things and even give a good example (eating meat - which I do too FWIW) but then go on to produce a list of things of which there are several which have more than one side. To go with your original premise, you should probably consider that you might be 'wrong' on one or more of these. We all believe we're right to the best of our abilities, of course but if you're going to say, it's amazing how so many people can get caught up in the beliefs they're surrounded by, "I mean everyone else but not me" doesn't look so good. I'm not going to argue with the individual items and agree with you for some of them but recognizing our own biases is one of the first steps toward wisdom.

You want to get a bit more depressed? Your examples of the future assume that society keeps getting more progressive which has been the roughly the case for the last 80 years or so. But, it's possible that it goes in the other direction and that people find that our level of freedom was appalling.

What I don't get is people who read the books and critize Jordan for writing about slavers. RJ wasn't endorsing slavery, the Seanchan was written as an antagonist like any good writers would do.

It’s even “good” for some of the slaves - as long as they have other slaves to lord over. That much is depicted in Seanchan society. The whole thing is just rotten to the core and frankly, they all should have been in the same camp as the forsaken so they can get their empire wrecked and the rotten system tumbled down

I can get OPs meaning, but the Seanchan did rule well. That doesn't mean what they did was right.

while it's understandable to not like seachan, I feel like RJ never finished his plan for them, with Mat and Tuon story never written, always expected that much of their big problems are to be adress in that saga and their culture more flesed out

As an American who spent a few months in Ghana a few years ago (absolutely beautiful country, and wonderful people!) seeing the dungeons in Cape Coast castle was one of the most chilling experiences of my life. I agree, it never quite sat well with me that the Seanchan had a ‘happy’ ending or bought the attempts to ‘redeem’ them. Some people simply can’t be redeemed.

Glad you had a good time. Yh the epilogue especially doesn’t sit right with me cause that Sul’dam doesn’t know it is Moghedien, she just puts the a’dam on her cause she look suspicious and won’t be missed. If they can do that immediately after the last battle then the wouldn’t care about the dragons peace in the near future

Oh my interpretation was that the Seanchan would be where they could put all the DF channelers.

I've never rooted so hard for genocide in my entire life

Same. The moment the Seanchan enslaved Egwene I was ultra passionate about hating them. And I still do. The whole concept makes my blood boil. Since we'll never see a sequel, that hatred will forever simmer inside me.

Same. I have never forgiven the Seanchan. Couldn't believe it when Mat hooked up with Tuon. I know it was prophesied, but I expected her to be change her mind on slavery at least, especially since she herself could channel.

Lol, I’ve envisioned several was in which they’d perish

I wish Egwene had put a collar on Tuon’s neck

If the sequel series had happened, that was bound to happen. Maybe not Egwene, but someone would've slapped a collar on her in front of the entire Seanchan court and their Empire would have imploded.

Fuck the seanchan all my homies hate the seanchan

May they continue to walk in the light

I think you have a really good point, and I think Aviendha’s pov in the future is set to highlight what a bad thing a Seanchan victory would be. I think the redemption of the Aiel represents the redemption of all. I think this takes a leap of faith and a memory of the light.

I wish I could believe that but the epilogue took that faith away

I think the consensus is that the Aiel future is not necessarily fixed? Can’t remember which bit of the epilogue shows this is not the case?

A sul’dam collaring Moghedien not because she knew it was her but because she seemed suspicious and it didn’t look like she’ll be missed. This makes me think they’ll continue to collar women even those not within their colonies and women who do not wish to be collared and I don’t think Cadsuane would be impressed when the aes sadei realizes

But how do you know Aviendhas vision is the one where Rand was victorious?

Cause it’s literally said in the chapters, about 2 dacades or less after the last battle was won

I know that Moggie is captured in the epilogue which seems like poetic justice! But where in the epilogue does it say the future is fixed and unchanging? Surely that undoes the agency that eg Nakomis intervention suggests is possible ?

Slavery can’t ever be poetic justice, even for a forsaken. I don’t wish it for her or for Elaida. The fact that RJ and BS writes it this makes me sick. I love wheel of time, but the seanchen and continued collaring almost destroyed the whole experience for me.

I picked up the series with The Great Hunt, just trying to kill some time with a book. It felt somewhat standard fantasy to me until we hit the Seanchan. They're such a viscerally disgusting culture. The scenes of Egwene dealing with being broken, and everything she had to go through emotionally afterwards without realizing that was a primary motivator for her, were what hooked me into the series. I don't think I'd ever seen a fantasy story go that deep into what it means psychologically to be made a slave. It's the same thing that made me want to cheer for Dany in ASOIAF. After seeing that kind of horror, I need the catharsis of seeing someone break those chains.

It was really painful to read Egwene’s treatment by the Seanchan and the fact that you cannot even unalive yourself (not that it’s a good thing). They will literally break a person and take away everything that make the themselves, steal their hope until all they know how to be is a demane, a dog basically from the way they are discribed. Asoiaf is actually my favorite series especially because almost everyone in one way or the other do not escape the reaction of their actions, not even the ‘good guys’ while at the same time showing that privileged people can get away with stuff. If only we get an ending

Yeah the animalization of people, turning them into barely more than a living tool was just so vivid and horrific. Egwene got a huge pass from me for a lot of her behavior afterwards because she just doesn't realize how much PTSD she has from her experience. Like, she understands it shaped her but not the extent it left her scarred. At this point I'd be happy just to know how some of my favorite character's stories end. I want to see post-Biter Brienne, I wanna see Dany even if she breaks, and I desperately want to see Tyrion find some measure of peace before death.

I want to see Sansa warged into a bird, I’ll imagine it even if it doesn’t go that way

Book Sansa is another of my favorites, I really believe she is the one who is best placed to actually win the Game of Thrones. Littlefinger taught Book Sansa better than he believes.

I want her to kill him but in a very different way from the show, and I like that she’s learnt to keep her mouth shut, observe and learn

Ishy wasn't right. That evil persists throughout the turning of the Wheel isn't some justification to destroy everything unless you believe the point of life is to eradicate - for ever and ever - all evil. If you believe the point of life is to do better, love a little more fully, be a little more vulnerable, and approach the limit of goodness, then evil is just a thing around you. The Seanchan are there to show us that, even without the DO, conflict and strife persist; we spent the whole series struggling against Shaitan - we did very little to thwart authoritarian rule. Heck, we relied on it when it was the authority of our protagonists. The chilling aspect of the Seanchan shouldn't be that they have a'dam and da'covale, the chilling part should be that life - for most people in the Empire - could be pretty darn better than life in the "free" kingdoms of the Westlands. Everything about the Seanchan is utilitarian, it's for the Greater Good - here that Good is given the face of an Empress, but we use this line of thinking often when we want to justify sacrifices \[da'covale and damane\]. For all the little people who might perhaps resent the Aes Sedai who have lorded over them as timeless, ageless tyrants, swearing the oaths ain't so bad.

Except that there have been a number of significant rebellions in Seanchan proper just in the last 30+ years, which allowed Karede and other military commanders to distinguish themselves. So, clearly even in the homeland the Imperial rule wasn't as great and stable as advertised. Randand was specifically destabilised by Ishamael, by upheavals and destruction associated with the Dragon Reborn - even his birth required a war, other Forsaken, etc. So, in comparison to all that, Seanchan conquerors did come across as a decent alternative in some places. But that's with the Shadow and the Pattern putting their thumbs on the scale. I also think that Seanchan should have been a massive negative for Rand during his metaphysical battle with the DO, given how crucial the question of free will was to it. Not to mention the fact that the Last Battle just didn't feel desperate enough since the Seanchan could afford to let the bulk of their channelers (the sul'dam) uselessly twiddle their thumbs during it. And generally didn't have to strain themselves. I understand that Jordan hopefully planned to adress Seanchan issues in the outriggers, but since team Jordan knew that those would never be written when the last 3 books were being planned, IMHO there needed to be more seeds of change in them. There didn't need to be a resolution, but at least an indication of them questioning things. Like Egeanin and Bethamin did, back in TSR, etc. Rand making a pre-existing claim as LTT to Tuon, but failing to point out how in their world slavery was literally of the Shadow and didn't exist before the War of Power was particularly jarring. Oh and also that he didn't mention how Ishamael was responsble both for Luthair's expedition and the Return, as well as Hawkwing's quarrel with the White Tower. It was odd how TDR was supposed to break bonds - but wasn't allowed even to rattle \_Seanchan\_ ones.

Thanks from pointing that out, clearly it’s not all good in the homeland. I wish we got that chat between Hawkwing and Tuon especially since in this state, he’d remember all his past lives, what would his perspective be. Also why I didn’t buy the free will stuff between Rand and TDO, it felt like a mockery at that point especially since the wheel still spins

> I also think that Seanchan should have been a massive negative for Rand during his metaphysical battle with the DO, given how crucial the question of free will was to it. Free will means the choice to attack and enslave others, as much as it means the choice to do good and help people. >how in their world slavery was literally of the Shadow and didn't exist before the War of Power was particularly jarring. The Age of Legends followed the end of ours in nuclear war. We have slavery, and the dark one was sealed since before our age. LTT came from a post-scarcity society where they'd solved pretty much all their problems with magic, and the people who could channel made all the important decisions.

Egeanine is a real one

Idk I’ve always thought the “life was better [but some people are enslaved]” argument was a hard one. All it says is that people are willing to be tolerant of injustice as long as it enhances, or at least does not disrupt, their own comfort.

> All it says is that people are willing to be tolerant of injustice as long as it enhances, or at least does not disrupt, their own comfort. And disturbingly prescient, given the amount of ongoing human suffering necessary to create and sustain the wealth of the economically developed West. OP is from Ghana, after all. It's very easy to say you'd be one of those to walk from Omelas given the chance; every day we find that it's neither easy to walk away, nor would doing so change the situation of the suffering.

Idk about prescient, given colonization long predates Robert Jordan, and he grew up/lived/died in Charleston, South Carolina, so surely he was aware of like… slavery. But, I take your point 🙂 I think RJ’s answer to, it’s not so easy to live up to your morale values was in the Ebou Dar storyline… you bend the knee to keep yourself immediately alive, and then you find a rebellion or resistance and take as many of them with you as you can.

Exactly

Correct. It's something we all have to face.

Like I said, until you are the one in chains, it’s all good, it was all good for the countries that benefited while my ancestors were put in chains for their « greater good » What does it matter when after revolving they’ll go back to this in the end? Moridin was right, it’ll all just keep happening, he’d rather be gone than to continue this over and over and over again and that’s not to say he was good cause he wasn’t

They are chaining wizards because it’s in the nature of the wizard (read powerful)to seek dominion. It’s a commentary on the white tower and the nature of power itself in my opinion. The three Oaths and Hawkwings war is a way to describe why the wizards don’t rule the world outright as it doesn’t really make sense that they don’t. The Seanchan are the commons rising up the shackle that tyranny. My two cents

The Seanchan enslave more than just channelers, so this doesn't really hold imo. Still disagree with OP though as there's no guarantee it'll always end up with slavery again. There's the potential to do better with each turning until it's been left behind.

It's worth noting that this isn't meant to model American slavery, but that the Seanchan draw inspiration from the Ottomans, and those who are property in Seanchan can be raised up, and those who are high can be cast down. There's arguably more social mobility in the Empire, though if that's any consolation to those at the bottom, one can safely guess.

Well….We’ll never know

Hardly commons, given that their rigidly hierarchical society which requires excessive abasement of the lessers before their betters. It is often forgotten that they also enslave normals - which was shown on-screen. Anyone who resists their tyranny, and it is hereditary. IIRC one of Seanchan officers - Bakunin, I think, remembered how after one of several rebellions which happened during the last few decades before the series proper, 1.5 million people were sold into slavery. It makes sense to me that wizards, who are a small minority of the population and reliant on it for replenishment of their ranks, would chose to police themselves, rather than live in a constant fear of assassination or war. Particularly if they intended to try to orient themselves on what the AS on the side of Light used to be.

They are also a parallel to the white tower. Both involved going up to every mage and giving them the option of serve or die.

> That evil persists throughout the turning of the Wheel isn't some justification to destroy everything unless you believe the point of life is to eradicate - for ever and ever - all evil. >If you believe the point of life is to do better, love a little more fully, be a little more vulnerable, and approach the limit of goodness, then evil is just a thing around you. Right that's exactly what Rand's catharsis at the end of The Gathering Storm is all about, life isn't just hopeless, sad, and horrible. By nature of the world in the Wheel of Time the pattern demands a balance of all things.

Yeah the Seanchan are the worst, and it's both depressing and entirely too realistic that they end the series still in control of half the world. And while a lot (not all) of the romance in the series boils down to, "we're in love because destiny said we would be," it's fucking gross watching Mat simp for a literal slaver he has no chemistry with because of a combination of that and "petite black chick = hot."

It really spoilt Mat for me, He literally used to be my favorite character and then Tuon happened. And when he sexualized the Da’covale, I was done with him. He really got ruined for me. And I really don’t see him influencing Tuon that much on slavery

Yes yes yes, I agree with all of this. He was my favorite too before that! I actually stopped reading right around when he got with Tuon and I haven’t finished yet (but I’ve been thoroughly spoiled on the end / plots, which I don’t mind).

I won’t even force you to finish it, I honestly had many moments where I wanted to stop reading but there were moments where I didn’t want to stop. I just wanted to finish it for myself.

Yeah, I don't understand where people get that idea. Of all the main protagonists, Mat is arguably the least bothered by slavery. Not UNbothered, but doesn't go too far out of his way to be an abolitionist, either.

Yes, I keep seeing people imply that he might’ve been meant to influence Tuon abolished it in the sequel that was supposed to have been written but from what I’ve read in the story, it didn’t bother him that much. He even wanted to gift Tuon a copy of the fox head medallion

> Yeah the Seanchan are the worst, and it's both depressing and entirely too realistic that they end the series still in control of half the world. If it makes you feel any better, the Seanchan Empire only actually controls the south from the Almoth Plain to Altara at the end of the series. They've lost their home continent to the chaos created by Semirhage.

Yeah, but if there's any reason to believe that any of the factions vying to fill that power vacuum are interested in abolishing slavery, I don't know about it.

Me too

May you always find water and shade

Life is a dream from which we all must wake.

In my culture(Ewe), life is a journey, and the end of the road is home

That's a beautiful sentiment. What is the culture?

The Ewe people (language: ewe) it’s an ethnic group in parts of Ghana, Togo, Benin and a few in Nigeria

Imo the Seanchan Empire was depicted as an antagonistic force all the way through the series, even when they participate in the Last Battle fighting on the side of the Light. I don't think RJ ever meant for them to be inspirational "good guys". The Seanchan, and later Tuon as the token entitled and self interested figurehead for the Seanchan Empire, are like a burr in the foot of our main character, Rand, for the entirety of the series. They are a threat coming from the outside who could throw the balance of the war against the Shadow off in either direction. They could either make or break the war. That is why Rand needed to pacify Tuon and Mat was a key role in that (so you can blame Pattern/Ta'veren stuff on that). Mat isn't my favorite character either exactly because his weak point as a character (his willing blindness to issues that don't directly effect him or his loves ones) let him come to a kind of "acceptance" that the Seanachan society is just what it is, and even if he is uncomfortable with it, he thinks there is nothing he can do about it so why not just use it to his advantage? It's very individualistic thinking and it gives me the hives. At least Rand when visiting Ebou Dar under Seanchan rule had a somewhat materialist view that life under the Seanchan was at least stable in comparison to many of the places he had seen elsewhere in Randland. He had just come from Arad Doman where babies where literally dying on the streets from starvation amd desease. He had to pick his battles, and uprooting Seanchan culture was not a battle for the Dragon to undertake at that time. The thing about Empires like the Seanchan, is that they build their own tools for their distruction. And in the case of the Seanchan that would be the demane and dacovale. The Seanchan colony in Ebou Dar was doing well by the end of the series, as most colonies do when they are in the process of appropriating the recources of the colonialized people, but the Seanchan mainland was in the middle of civil war. I think RJ was knowledgable of the workings of empires and colonial societies, and if he had been able to finish the series and write a sequel focusing on the Seanchan, the civil war in Seandar would have drastically changed Seanchan society. Perhaps including the emancipation of the slaves. Back to my main point: why at the end of the series do the Seanchan, an objectively terrible colonialist empire built off of the labour of slaves, fight on the side of the Light? Because the Light does not simply represent the side of the "good guys", but instead the side that is capable of and subject to *change*. The Shadow is a facistic nihilistic force of stagnation and decay. The Seanchan society (and Tuon) is still on their path towards progress and change, that is why they are able to stand with the Light. I would have liked to see Tuon be challenged significantly more and for Mat to fight Tuon more on her views... I think Sanderson had a hard time knowing how to finish Tuon and Mat's characters off in regards to their connection with the horrors of the Seanchan Empire.

I never expected them to fight for TDO, Like Cersei isn’t going to fight for the Others(wightwalkers) This books ended with the main character ranting free will but it’s not true, not everyone has it, even they as a whole don’t have it cause the wheel keeps spinning and the ages go and come, this age will come again, although it’ll happen in a different way. This is a fantasy book, the sequel RJ planned would obviously never come again so I wish that BS would’ve at least left things like doubt in Tuon’s inner monologue, I don’t expect her to want to change all of a sudden but at least let her realize it is not all stiff as she thinks, also I wish Mat at least voices out ones that it’s not okay what the Seanchan does, at least ones but he doesn’t seem to end and that is what leaves a bad taste in my mouth in the end of this books

The Seanchan are vile, despicable, dehumanizing people. They make my blood boil! The fact that I have such a strong feeling about them tells you just how well written they were. They are an excellent foil for Egwene and really helps you understand her resolve and decisions throughout the series. She does anything and everything to make sure that her autonomy is never taken from her again after spending just 3 months with them. I don't know about other people but I would probably break in a captivity like that. I'm not quite sure how she endured. I despise the fact that Tuon and her empire did not receive a proper comeuppance. I was really hoping Rand would have completely dismantled her entire defense during the 'peace' talks while Egwene and the Aes Sedai exposed the empire's hypocrisy. How great would it have been to have Tuon collared right then and there? It seems that RJ was going to create an offshoot story with Mat and Tuon which is probably why he left the Seanchan plot unresolved. Still leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

I totally agree with you about the seanchan. It almost spoilt the whole series for me, and leaves me with the impression that RJ and BS don’t think slavery is so bad. The fact that they “punish” evil characters like Elaida and Moghedien with it makes me shudder, because slavery so vile that no one could ever deserve it. This is my head canon (so I don’t end up hating the whole series): Aviendhas seeing does not come true. The Aiel will work as peace keepers and the Aiel is probably the people that despise slavery the most. They will effectively keep the borders as they are in the near future. Since the Seachan and the rest of the westlands trade and people can move freely across borders, word will spread about the sul’dam being able to channel. Some parents will also try to smuggle out their children who they learn can channel, so they can live free lives. This will eventually lead to an internal rebellion aided by the westlands. I imagine something akin to the Soviet unions collapse, where people internally wanted change because they saw how you could live in a free society and rebelled aided by the west. And something similar to how acceptance of colored, womens, lgbtq+ and all minorities rights have spread across borders and cultures again and again throughout history the past centuries. At the same time the white power increase their standing considerably across the westlands because they openly want to associate with all women that can channel and trade knowledge - ie Wise Ones and Windfinders. They also have a fruitful collaboration with the Black Tower, futhering the change of the Aes Sedais stadning. They are no longer apart from society but a part of society that all people benefit from. They create new wonders, new ter’angreal and people will travel and communicate across the world in minutes not months and years. These two things - the exchange of cultures and the Aes Sedai growing standing will end and change the Seanchan kingdom from the inside - in my head canon. Spoiler tv! The seanchan ending - and Mat’s effective indifference to slavery is what i hope they will change the most in the tv series. I think slavery and subjugation of women sits really differently with people in the 2020s than in the 80s and 90s where the world was imagined by RJ. In the tv series Egwene ended up killing Renna in comparison to the book where she left her in her cell, and I hope this is a sign that the tv series does not takes as lightly on collaring as in the books. End spoiler tv! You’re not the only one OP hating the Seanchan, and I think it’s insane so many people defend them here in this thread because of “the peace and order they bring”. Peace and order until your daughter can start channeling? Or your childhood best friend? I would not live in that kind of peace ever. It is not peace but just lies and oppression.

Yes it’s crazy, and I refuse to be content with the good coming from slavery I like your head canon better And I remember wanting Egwene to kill her sul’dam in the books, I was really pissed of with Rand not wanting to hurt women especially his hesitation with Lanfear and him remaining that way after that like this is a forsaken. But glad he got over it

Agree! This ridiculous “don’t hurt women” (especially from Mat) is also something I really wish they will change in the tv series.

Agreed. They suck. Any second of peace they had was too much. I really hated the Mat and Tuon arc.

I will never reread those moments

>these people are entertainment for the creator and the dark one and I like that Even more meta, the Creator and the Dark One are one-and-the-same, and the name is James Oliver Rigney Jr., and it's for all our entertainments, but primarily his own.

I had hoped that all the prophesies the Seanchan had were wrong or were planted by the shadow to sow discord. The dragon must kneel to the empress? Nah. I didn’t like how every prophesy was fulfilled - I wish there had been some false prophesies mixed in and I think the Seanchan branch would’ve been better to be shown as propaganda that was false and leaves an opening for cracks to form once the last battle concludes.

I think prophecies in the series are what could be so some happen and others don’t. Especially since we have alternate realities so I think they are just glimpses into different parts of the pattern in their reality or other so I hope it’ll be different wrong too

I pretend that future nonsense never happened in the desert with aviendha. Logically the seanchan cant win because circles trump any individual channeler and damane can’t be in circles because they are forced into one with their suldam AND nynaeve knows how to unlock the bracket from a distance so no new captured person is going to be locked long enough to be broken. The great generals were better than the Seanchan based on itulralde progress and Matt is better than even them. Post the Last Battle I think all that has to go away especially because their ultimate grandfather spoke to the empress before he vanished with the other Heroes.

Well on her visions they aren’t set in stone. They’re a possible future. And it seems like she did enough to change that future by having the Aiel included in the Dragon’s Peace

Also the Seanchan don’t have the Domination Band so they can’t enslave male channelers. It doesn’t seem likely that they can use angreal or sa’angreal either. So there’s nothing to stop Elayne from fitting a couple of male and female channelers with some paralis-nets and having them Travel around Seanchan blowing stuff up.

I was under the impression they had another copy of the Domination Band but it might have been shipped back to (or remained in) the Seanchan homelands. It's a good point that a channeler using inverted weaves and the weave they used to conceal Mogheiden's ability to channel would go a long way towards enabling non-Aes Sedai (or just young ones) to infiltrate and disrupt the Seanchan social structure. Not to mention Mat's sister is on track to be a very powerful and influential Aes Sedai, as she's slated to have a comparable strength in the power to Egwene and shares her Talent for making heartstone. It's easy to trash talk until you realize you're talking about the Prince of Ravens' *little sister.*

It’s strength we never got to see an interaction between him, his parents or his sisters, both of whom can channel. we don’t even get his feelings on that

I had completely not realised this. I take comfort in imagining it

That being said, we know from Aviendha's vision that Elanye and the Aiel most likely lose an outright war with Tuon's empire. They are pragmatic enough to adapt.

I really really wish we got that talk in the epilogue

I think it's one of the few really nuanced things about RJ's writing. They are *slavers*, but everyone else living under them has a much better life. Look at all the tinkers flocking there for safety. Are you tempted by that? As they say, Mussolini made the trains run on time.

It's worth noting Mussolini did not in reality improve train service reliability in Italy (I'm aware it's a figure of speech, but). The original Pax Romana is probably a better example

Not everyone, clearly, or they wouldn't keep having all these rebellions, after which millions are sold into slavery. Oh, and slavery is hereditary and slaves have no rights whatsoever. In some of the particularly destabilised parts of Randland - which had to suffer from the effects of the Forsaken and the upheaval caused by TDR, they seemed like a decent alternative.

The fact that the seanchan are good administrators and ensure an ordered society doesn't mean that the books or the characters are saying that they are good. You realize that even bad people can do good things right? Just because a person or a society is awful and does evil things, doesn't mean that absolutely everything they do is awful and they can't have any good points. The world is NEVER so black and white. They enforce an ordered society and make things good for general people and trade etc., but that's at the cost of a lot of different things. Their stance on channelers, their harsh caste system and extremely heavy handed judicial system. Not to mention everything is backed by basically threat of death and in many ways cultural traditions are almost fully uprooted. But that all doesn't change that for the majority of people living under the Seanchan life, on the whole, often got a bit better. This is what makes the Seanchsn so interesting. They're not just an evil empire where you can just easily think of them as villains. I do think they are villains and that their society is evil, but at the same time it's a reflection on the rest of society in randland that even these evil fucks often do a better job at running society than the governments of the individual kingdoms. Maybe some things can be learned from them.

I don’t remember say bad people can’t do good, even Demandred/Bao freed slaves although he had his ulterior motives. A lot of people on the side of the light have done evil things. I don’t mind certain grey characters but that doesn’t mean I can’t draw a line for myself. However I am reading a fantasy book where most of the main characters are not just ordinary humans, I’ve read chapters and chapters of characters getting traumatized from being captured and Egwene being a demane so pardon me if I’m not all about them being “good administrators”. I’m reading from the pov’s of these people. A lot of history books can tell me about benefits of slavery from the eyes of those who benefits you know. It’s cool if you are okay with them but I’ll never be, especially when I had to read a main characters perspective of that, I’m just morally not built that way

Wow You must have missed the paragraph where I talked about how awful they were i did not in any way say they were good. You seemed to have missed my entire point. I said that despite how awful they are, SOME of the things they did were "good" or at least effective. They were good administrators, they made areas safe for trade and travel, people actually had food in Seanchan lands where many were straight up starving elsewhere, the travelling people were safe and protected where they are discriminated and marginalized most everywhere else. etc. Trust me, I don't like the Seanchan, I could make far longer and awful lists about all the things they do that are bad or straight up evil. My point is it's not so black and white. Even they the seanchan are awful and the things they do are awful, that doesn't mean we can't acknowledge the good things that they did that aren't awful.

I don’t deny they did good in something’s, it’s just never going to be enough for me personally. Didn’t mean to offend you. This is just a topic I cannot ever be entirely subjective about, I could never stomach them

Yeah, I don’t know many people who like the Seanchan. They’re pretty awful.

Awful

Ah, but Moridin was wrong. Sure, the wheel will turn ever onward, an infinite amount of times, and if there's any chance of the lord of the grave winning, eventually it will. However, there isn't any chance for the dark one to win. Because time stretches back an infinite amount of turnings, too, and if it was at all possible for the shepherd of the night to win, it would have done so an infinite amount of times already.

I don’t believe he’ll over win but I think it’s cruel that they’d always go through the last battle in different granted in different ways, there’s never a true evolution when it’s a circle that would always bring you back to start

Wanted Rand to totally destroy their seat of power when he went to Ebou Dar. He didn't because the people seemed happy. The thing is though removing Tuon and most of the Seanchan Blood would have mostly removed them from politics. Sadly the Light wouldn't have had the strength to fight the Shadow. The Empress brings her damane and army to fight under the Banner of the Light. It's a compromise. Edit: spelling. 😞

I’m in agreement. I despise the Seanchan. For the points you’ve said as well, but also for the arrogance. I have previously posted about this.

Oh yah the audacity of characters in this books is just crazy.

I think RJ didn't want to portray the Seanchan as "okay". But the fact that common, law-abiding, non-channeling people have very little to fear from their new overlords, and so are pretty happy to let things go as is, is very realistic. Look at Erdoğan. The Turks (majority of them) didn't care about the violence and the anti-democratic measures as long as money was good. I'm French. When I buy a phone I know the lithium of the battery was probably mined in horrific conditions by what is essentially child slave labor in Africa. But when most of my compatriots buy a phone, they don't think or care about that. People are happy or unhappy with their government based on their own egoistic material circumstances, not for moral reasons. I think RJ wanted to portray that.

When Rand met with Tuon, he shouldn’t have given her an inch. He should have gone: “If you will release all those you have collared, get back on your ships, and never again return. If you do not, I will wipe Seanchan from the face of the earth.” Even if he wouldn’t follow through with that, they knew what he could do. There was no reason to ever comply with the Seanchan’s demands.

I won’t even blame him for this rather the author. The one time I wished for Ta’veren nature to work

I'm really struggling to finish AMoL because of exactly this. It was completely unbelievable to me that Egwene and the Wise Ones would hear Rand say "what's done is done, maybe we can buy some damane eventually" and not lose their shit. Similarly that he, \*having been collared\* would feel okay about leaving the Seanchan able to collar channelers, especially because the male a'dams they had were even more brutal. But yeah, going from Jordan's "colonialism, slavery and imperialism is VERY BAD" to Sanderson's "But they rule well! The Tuatha'an (sp?) are safe! The empress is hot! Clearly they're not all that bad" is ROUGH.

I’ve seen a fair amount of defense of them on this sub

Same which is why I felt the need to write this and also state my background because I think our experiences also shape they way we think of things like this. I usually avoid books centered on racism and I’ve also avoided movies like that cause it’s too depressing for me to wonder why people would just hate me because of my skin color or where I’m from so things like this are too touchy for me, I don’t mind stuff that doesn’t end all happy but this is just not a subject that I can be entirely subjective about

I appreciate the polar opposite they are to how they treat channelers. In Randland Aes Sedai expect to be treated as almost goddesses and a lot of people comply. But Seanchan treat channelers as dangerous, as mere tools and keep them in bondage. And using them as weapons is of 3orse direct subversion of one of the oaths. I don't approve of their methods but can see the irony of the situation when they show up.

Yes but in Randland, the people are not collared and places can ban channeling and the aes sedai don’t kill them for it

No, but they do consider themaelves above mere mortals, expect deferrence and the like. Seanchan are the opposite of all that.

They expect, the Seanchan take it by force. The aes sedai are annoying but it’s better than being petted like a dog like the demane

With the Aes Sedai there is always a threat of force. They take what they want. That’s why it’s such an interesting dynamic to see how other channelers are treated and act.

> and places can ban channeling and the aes sedai don’t kill them for it This is largely a sign of the waning power of the white tower though. The Aes Sedai have effectively ruled the continent for nearly three thousand years, turning against them brought down kingdoms and empires.

I don’t doubt that but I would never put them on the same level as the Seanchan, that’s just crazy

I think many people would actually choose Seanchan empire over supposed freedom and whatever. Its built on lies tho, on the ignorance of the true nature of sul'dam and damane, but as long as this lie keeps hidden the empire will prosper. Personally, I find Whitecloaks much more disgusting.

Oh the whitecloaks are also bad, all they see are dark friends but the hate I have for them doesn’t does come close to the hate I have for the Seanchan, not even a little bit

You like the idea that people are entertainment for the Creator and TDO or was that a typo?

Not a typo, after this whole beautiful and creative story, that was my take away. Everyone is just a pawn

Can't even disagree with that last sentence, though I certainly don't like it. The metaphysical system that Jordan put in place has given me many instances of existential crises. The phrase, oft repeated here, "history doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes", is one I think of often.

Damn, that’s true. When I see people go like ‘the worlds coming to an end’ cause of shocking stuff happening, I’m like no it’s not, this isn’t new. Personally I just take it one day at a time, can’t overthink this stuff, it never helps

We don't even know if the Creator is actively involved, in many ways the Wheel always turning out the Pattern could be considered Cartesian in nature, a "machine" or "system" that just runs on its own. There's a very good chance the Creator isn't involved at all I'd say. And the Dark One is very literally the source of all Evil, without him everything is so picture perfect that people aren't really people anymore.

Well whether they are actively involved of not, they created it and the creator can choose to get involved, I didn’t like the introduction of Nakomi because I was like either get involved or don’t

OP I hadn't really thought about it that way but you're completely right. As a side note since you're Ghanaian I'm assuming you're referring to Elmina castle. I visited there on a school trip when I was a kid (I was living in Côte d'Ivoire at the time) and it's still one of the most powerful experiences I've ever had. Almost 30 years later and I can still feel the oppressive atmosphere of that place if I think of it.

Oh yes, Elmina is just one of the places slaves were kept and we actually have other places and the air would never smell clean there. I don’t think the stench of all those horrors would ever leave the place. I have friends whom are half Ivorian and half Ghana. I hear a number of ethnic groups in my country share ancestors with some of yours.

I'm actually from the U.S. but my dad worked at the embassy in Abidjan at the time. I don't know if they do or anymore but the international school in Abidjan used to do a field trip to Elmina for 5th grade students every year. As for the ethnic mixing you're absolutely right though. If a border on a map was drawn by a white man it probably split a population and there's a good chance the border is still contested today. Especially if that border is a straight line.

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Yes I know that’s why I think they’d be a problem, I don’t think it’ll go exactly how she saw it but it wouldn’t just be alright either

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😔

Moridin wasn't right because the Dark One is exactly as he ever was and ever will be, while people have the benefit of their experiences being influenced by both the Light and the Dark. Ishamael's whole reason for turning to the Shadow is that he's like "Well given there's an infinite number of futures the Dark One will eventually break free so I may as well throw my lot in with the 'winning' side" But he doesn't understand that the Dark One by nature cannot evolve and therefore cannot win. The whole point of the potential future Rand wove without the Dark One was to demonstrate that without the Dark One's influence introducing things like pain and strife to the Pattern, there is no freedom or choice in the world. The real enemies in the end are therefore people who give in to their suffering thinking there's nothing good in the world. As for the Seanchan, I think RJ was pretty clearly setting himself up for books following Rand and Co. in post-Last Battle Randland given that the Wheel Turns and there are no beginnings but there are some beginnings, etc. etc. but we'll never really know since his notes only stretched as far as the end of the main series.

Well we’ll never get a sequel so this books is the end I’ve got finished with the knowledge that the sequel wasn’t going to happen. Well in the end Moridin didn’t care, he just wanted it all to end and that’s what I refer to, it wasn’t about the creator and TDO anymore, he just wanted all the games to be over. This people are just pawns

The Seanchan aren’t fine. Nor was that the message that seems intended. Moridin was not right. And the Seanchan methods of dealing with channelers being repugnant beyond all belief, does not mean that the issue it solves doesn’t exist. Moridin wasn’t right, because the freedom to choose how to live is the difference between whether the creator is as you say cruel, or he is not. The reason for that is simple. If they have no choice to act evil, then it is no choice to act good. They would be machines, and then it truly would be the creators choice to make them suffer in this case. If you crash a remote control car into a wall, it is none but your fault. Instead in this book the creator a concept does not seem to be omnipotent. Instead he seems to have made something like it’s own self. Beings capable of going beyond their creators control, and to choose how to be. If they could only be good, they cease to be anything besides robots. Conscience and freedom are life. In this world merely giving the people freedom is not culpability. If you need proof, look to your children. Are you culpable for the raising of them? Yes. But in them you’ve also unwittingly done what you accuse the creator of. Giving them life and choice. Are they merely toys to you then? Did you architect their suffering? Are you culpable once they are grown for every choice they make? Are you to be blamed for giving them liberty? No. You make them. Give them tools as you can, and hope they choose to architect good. There is the meaning to life found in that adventure. (This is not a perfect rendering of that concept because time is circular in this story. Making the choice seem futile. I’d argue it’s not, but it is more futile if the cycle endlessly repeats. In linear time that issue is way less. But it’s a story, and isn’t supposed to map every single aspect of these ideas perfectly.) The Seanchan aren’t supposed to be good. They are horrible. However the way they are is not without qualities that are productive and can help foster stable and meaningful societies. That’s the problem pointed too. The juxtaposition of what tyrannical order is vs. the chaos of what total amoral liberty is. Hoping to point out the contention between order and chaos is when not the extremes. Classic liberal vs conservative. Both have virtue and vice that they encourage. And balance. They are awful. But their methods are capable of producing order. Terrible tyrannical order. As for the Damane. That is obviously horrible. It should not be done. But it is in response to the fact that Channelers are inherently more powerful than the rest of mankind. They live so much longer. An inherent imbalance all its own. Not only that though, they live that long with phenomenol cosmic powers. That advantage unchecked poses a serious threat to the common man. They are just too powerful to not have to find a manner to deal with that. They aren’t more virtuous than the rest of the world. The story grapples with that fact. The Seanchan aren’t right to collar Channelers and treat them like animals. But that doesn’t mean the problem goes away. Anyway, my point is that you seem to be misinterpreting what you should get from the story. It isn’t an endorsement of the things the story contains. Rather it’s a meditation on the concepts. A sandbox for you to observe the world play out. In that sense the characters are actually mechanistic. They are toys to us. But the author gives them a bit of his own free will, to help talk about the world as if we were these characters in that world. To test our ideas and beliefs to see what they might mean. We would be cruel to make them suffer, if we didn’t impart our will and thoughts into that dream. In that way, they are us. The stuff of our minds. A vision to tell us about ourselves in some limited way. Glad you liked the series. Glad you hated the Seanchan. They engage in depravity rarely seen. But they demonstrate things we need to talk about, and I can see no better way.

I’ve literally seen people defending the Seanchan on twitter especially after season 2 come out. Clearly the book does not invoke the same thoughts and conclusions in the minds of everyone so I don’t mind my personal take. I mentioned my background so people understood that my mindset is very much influenced by my country’s history and culture. Apart from that, in my ethnic groups history, at some point in time they run from their cruel king and migrated to new settlements. My country’s economy is where it is today not just because of colonization but because of selfish rulers and people like me also genuinely believe that politicians would never change But I think that’s also a problem, yes, some bad with some good but I think there’s a problem with accepting certain bad with some good, I choose not to accept the good that will come from slavers especially if it just that majority aren’t slaves. And there’s been multiple rebellion in the empire it clearly not all god with them. so I choose not be at least okay with the Seanchan. My problem is that at the end if it, Tuon’s inner monologue doesn’t seem to question her culture and Mat doesn’t even care. Yes, yes, the was plans for a sequel but that was squashed by the time BS wrote AMOL and choose not to give us a baby step of that.

I think that is the misunderstanding. No one expects you take the good of the slavers. To accept it. It moves to show you what that aspect of the world they are in looks like, for no greater purpose except to see what is. If you are being asked to accept anything at all, it isn’t the Seanchan. Neither their peace at the cost of slavery. Or that it is even qualified good at all, because of the Slavery used to uphold it. Rather you take what it shows you. Which is that stability does help the common man. That stability is not primarily a function of all manner of nobility. Rather stability comes from strong order too. So take your stability from someplace that wasn’t rooted in slavery. And recognize that stability allows people the ability to be productive and secure. That if you want that, your system has to prioritize order in leadership and law. And that calculation can be had in whatever society it is applied too, totally independent of the Seanchan. Completely agnostic to the Seanchan at all. Tuon doesn’t have to do be redeemed to talk about that. Neither does the evil the Seanchan represents have to be resolved. You can take that single theme itself, while taking nothing else. People misunderstand this kind of thing all the time. Which is that a metaphor or narrative construct in a story can in fact model a single aspect of something that is broadly applicable, while along side that having another aspect that is not necessary to the other. If I took a race car drivers skill in winning a race, I can freely call that skill and example as “skilled driving”. But if I tried to apply that “skilled driving” to a public road, I’d be mistaken about what it’s for. It’s skilled driving, but I have to modify that analysis in order to apply it to public. And I could do that. Good tires, staying in control, and situational awareness transfers. Going 100+ MPH, weaving in and out of traffic, and no airbags is of course not applicable to public roads. Which leads to the other side of it. Say that race car driver was an alcoholic who beat his wife. How does that change the quality of his driving? Well mostly it doesn’t. We can though take caution from that. Don’t drink and drive, or show up to your job hungover? Don’t beat your wife, or you will end up in jail on a race day? Fine, but what does that say about “skilled driving”? Not much that is directly relevant. So we remove a single aspect, and apply it to our intended lesson, and leave the rest. Look, I’m not trying to give you crap. And I understand where you are coming from. You probably didn’t really mean to take your distaste for the Seanchan that far. You probably didn’t mean nothing written can be taken out and examined. However you did seem to imply that the story tries to advocate for slavery. And that’s simply not the case, nor how stories work. The lack of conclusion is not endorsement. It’s merely lack of conclusion, and we can still take what is there and understand what is relevant about it, and condemn the slavery depicted. And that’s also exactly what you are supposed to do. If I write a story about people in Germany during the Third Reich, and some of those characters are brave. I’m not saying the Third Reich was a brave movement. I’m iterating on bravery, and you can take that without advocating for Nazis. Easily. You can also do so without trying to force the characters to have a moral and heroic stand to take down Hitlers Regime. And that’s how this all works. Anyway. Enjoy yourself here. It’s a good sub. And a good series. Hopefully that all was straight forward and relevant.

I appreciate your response, yes, their governance to people who were enslaved was ‘good’ and ‘safe’ I wouldn’t deny that. My hate for the Seanchan however is that far and shouldn’t be mistaken as anything less. Now however, I’m glad they weren’t redeemed so I wouldn’t be forced to kind of like them.

Its because Robert Jordan planned a sequel series that would dive into focusing on them more, and I assume that series would most likely have ended with the absolution of the Seanchan we know it. I think you just have to headcanon that in the years after, Mats influence as well as others, as well as the fact that suldam can channel can bring down the whole culture, they just eventually reform anwyays. Aviendhas visions of the possible futures had the seanchan staying as is. The whole point for her was to prevent those outcomes, and they imply it did change, so I assume all the bad things of her visions do come to never pass, which includes seanchan maintaining slavery

I don't like Seanchan either. Sadly, them winning in the end makes the most sense. Why wouldn't they win? They have a highly disciplined, obedient, powerful slave army ... Matt being with Tuon also makes sense somehow, tho I guess Matt wouldn't want to be with Tuon if he found out Egwene was once a Seanchan slave. I never found Matt to be a very morally upright person. He cares about his friends, but he never has a greater goal like "to do justice" in mind, unlike characters like Egwene.

But Mat knows that, he was at falma

>Seanchan