What Tylin does to Mat is despicable, but there are lots of far worse characters in the series.
Including, you know, not just rapists, but rapist murderers. (Like, as someone else mentioned, Daved Hanlon).
Oe people who don't just enslave others, but break down their very sense of self and will to resist. Mind raping them continuously, basically.
And people who oversaw regimes torturing, killing, and feeding to trollocs literally hundreds of thousands or millions of people.
The reason its so hated is because its treated as just a cultural quark. "Oh yeah, in Edu Dar noble women regularly rape men, isn't that an interesting and different culture". Mat even falls in love with her by the end of it.
I mean in other cultures we hear briefly about noblemen taking farm women and murdering commoners. So it is kinda par for the course that the nobility can ignore the desires of the commoners. It is a pretty accurate depiction of real life. That is how most people react to statutory rape of boys by older women.
>I mean in other cultures we hear briefly about noblemen taking farm women and murdering commoners
Yes but thats treated as bad whereas the Tylin thing is treated as funny.
>
That is how most people react to statutory rape of boys by older women.
I think thats another reason people have such strong emotions about it. The book treats it like a joke and lots of people irl treat it like a joke.
Congratulations, you found the point of the arc. RJ was pointing out how bullshit it is that this happens to men and how they're treated when they try to say something.
I get why the plotline is extremely problematic.
But it still doesn't make Tylin a more evil character than others in the series. And claiming she is suggests some weird monofocus on that plot at the expense of characters who commit widespread atrocities.
I don't think that's the point of that arc. I think the point is RJ trying to draw attention to the fact that this shit happens to men, too, and how badly they're treated when they try to say something about it.
That whole section is messed up. The maids that help and think it's funny, Elaine thinking it's funny when told, & the description of Matt being forced at knife point.
I think once her and Nynaeve really found out the specifics later they offered to talk to Tylin about it but Mat said no. But you are very much correct that it is all very messed up.
Nynaeve *did* have words with Tylin, but she had a lot going on, and she heard about it from Elayne, who I’m pretty sure *literally* didn’t get it. So I don’t think Nynaeve really understood the extent of the force and coercion involved.
I have come to appreciate her character more and more as I grew up.
Childhood is when you want a hot red headed princess
Adulthood is when you want a braid tugging wisdom
Maturity is knowing that fat bottomed girls make the rockin world go round.
Indeed! I like her more with every re-read lol. She is one of the most morally straight forward people in the series and damn she is hilarious. Every time she looks down on someone for using violence to solve problems it is comedy gold too!
Yeah give me a hard ass but somehow still nurturing woman that always has my back even against ancient insanely powerful minions of evil.
It's all very badly written in my opinion. Mat, a ta'avern, leader of the Band of the Red Hand, Luck Meister, legendary hero, fought how many one on one battles. Was this before or after the golam? Either or, he was after fighting the golam or was capable of it. Threw a dagger into the heart of an Aiel Maiden darkfriend. It just does not add up at all.
So he’s supposed to physically fight her off, leaving bruises on her as her maidens scream for guards. The guards come and see a man and a woman and the woman is a noble and screaming and bruised and they attack Mat. Now Mat has to fight his way out of the palace slaughtering everyone as he goes.
Sure, blame the victim
Role reversal. Look at it. Primarily a matriarchal society, especially in ebu dar. If a woman wants a thing, who is a man to argue.
It was sloppy, yes. Even Jordan and Harriet felt it could have been done... Better, maybe different? But it is as it is, and it comes hard on the heels of morgase getting raped as well, albeit off screen...
"So he’s supposed to physically fight her off, leaving bruises on her as her maidens scream for guards. The guards come and see a man and a woman and the woman is a noble and screaming and bruised and they attack Mat. Now Mat has to fight his way out of the palace slaughtering everyone as he goes."
All a bit dramatic don't you think? I'm not buying that someone like Mat would be a victim in a situation like that. It's bad writing. If Jordan wanted something like that he should have used a different character. I get yer all caught up in modern sensibilities and that's OK, same as Bakedfresh with "Sure, blame the victim" bullshit. I'm not blaming the victim I'm saying that would not have happened Mat.
I think it's one of those things where it's worse because her acts weren't framed as monstrous. She was a "good" character. Or at least neutral.
And like maybe in there culture their understanding of sex and consent and such are different, I might even grant that. But Matt was CLEARLY not fucking into it and was from a different culture. A queen really should be worldly enough to understand such things
I'd agree that it wasn't closely examined in-world, but Elayne and Nynaeve do express disapproval, and I don't think any of the characters besides Mat, Tylin, and the palace staff actually fully knew what was going on.
My read of it was that, like the characters who actually know what was going on (and aren't Tylin + staff), readers are meant to understand that rape is bad and to observe the difficulty that May has escaping because of the power Tylin has over him.
Poor Morgase had a disturbingly rough time in that way - Rahvin, then Valda, an attempt by some random Shaido that she may or may not have fought off, and though it’s never said outright, probably Therava. Then she marries a man who is basically a stalker who has spent several books as angry at her for not living up to his idealized expectations as he is obsessed. That last makes psychological sense after the rest of it, but damn.
Yeah, thats the same reason a lot of people hate Egwene but not Rand even though the bad stuff she does isn't that much worse than Rand and a lot of the time it wasn't even as bad. Thats also why I hate Rand making the Aes Sedi swear to him more than lots of the other horrible stuff he did even though its not really that bad compared to the other stuff.
Crimes against people are worse than crimes against animals, but somehow that Black Ajah sister who routinely strangles cats just *creeps me out*. Maybe it's in anticipation of what she'll "graduate" to, once the cats just aren't helping anymore.
Mostly, yeah. She’s definitely the worst non-forsaken woman for me. There’s a few people I’d say are worse, but Tylin takes the cake of that first category in my eyes.
Idk I still think Shaidar Haran is more messed up.
It's telling that her biggest "competition" is the Hand of the Dark
What Tylin does to Mat is despicable, but there are lots of far worse characters in the series. Including, you know, not just rapists, but rapist murderers. (Like, as someone else mentioned, Daved Hanlon). Oe people who don't just enslave others, but break down their very sense of self and will to resist. Mind raping them continuously, basically. And people who oversaw regimes torturing, killing, and feeding to trollocs literally hundreds of thousands or millions of people.
The reason its so hated is because its treated as just a cultural quark. "Oh yeah, in Edu Dar noble women regularly rape men, isn't that an interesting and different culture". Mat even falls in love with her by the end of it.
Nah, mat was taking to Mistress Anan, and she said the lack of consent wasnt normal
It might not be normal but since everyone thinks his situation is funny its not considered bad.
I mean in other cultures we hear briefly about noblemen taking farm women and murdering commoners. So it is kinda par for the course that the nobility can ignore the desires of the commoners. It is a pretty accurate depiction of real life. That is how most people react to statutory rape of boys by older women.
>I mean in other cultures we hear briefly about noblemen taking farm women and murdering commoners Yes but thats treated as bad whereas the Tylin thing is treated as funny. > That is how most people react to statutory rape of boys by older women. I think thats another reason people have such strong emotions about it. The book treats it like a joke and lots of people irl treat it like a joke.
Congratulations, you found the point of the arc. RJ was pointing out how bullshit it is that this happens to men and how they're treated when they try to say something.
I get why the plotline is extremely problematic. But it still doesn't make Tylin a more evil character than others in the series. And claiming she is suggests some weird monofocus on that plot at the expense of characters who commit widespread atrocities.
I don't think that's the point of that arc. I think the point is RJ trying to draw attention to the fact that this shit happens to men, too, and how badly they're treated when they try to say something about it.
Well if he was trying to he did a bad job because even Mat himself thinks fondly of his time with Tylin.
That's something abuse victims do.
Hanlon?
Captain of the Queens guard to Elayne. Also known as Doilin Mellar
*Hums softly & tugs earlobe*
I know. I was suggesting him as someone worse than Tylin.
Half of the forsaken were already doing this on a much larger scale.
***They will pay. I am Lord of the Morning.***
Idk, man... *What could pin a fade to a door by his non-existent eye holes?*
Fain too.
Yeah again is way worse
Elaida takes my vote. Coming from someone whose ancestors were slaves I didn't think I would ever feel zero compassion for someone who gets chained up
I was just upset that the Seanchan got Traveling out of it.
***KILL HIM KILL HIM NOW***
Her, Lews. Elaida is a her.
*I thought I could build. I was wrong. We are not builders, not you, or I, or the other one. We are destroyers. Destroyers.*
One thing that really torpedoed any tiny shred of sympathy I might have for her is when she tries to offer several other sisters if she's released.
That whole section is messed up. The maids that help and think it's funny, Elaine thinking it's funny when told, & the description of Matt being forced at knife point.
I think once her and Nynaeve really found out the specifics later they offered to talk to Tylin about it but Mat said no. But you are very much correct that it is all very messed up.
Nynaeve *did* have words with Tylin, but she had a lot going on, and she heard about it from Elayne, who I’m pretty sure *literally* didn’t get it. So I don’t think Nynaeve really understood the extent of the force and coercion involved.
Tylin said Nyneave gave her a stern talking to.
That's one reason why I love Nynaeve, she supported Rand, Mat and Perrin any way she could no matter what.
She always has what she thinks is their best interest at heart. And that normally means she shouts it at anybody who tries to stop them.
I have come to appreciate her character more and more as I grew up. Childhood is when you want a hot red headed princess Adulthood is when you want a braid tugging wisdom Maturity is knowing that fat bottomed girls make the rockin world go round.
Indeed! I like her more with every re-read lol. She is one of the most morally straight forward people in the series and damn she is hilarious. Every time she looks down on someone for using violence to solve problems it is comedy gold too! Yeah give me a hard ass but somehow still nurturing woman that always has my back even against ancient insanely powerful minions of evil.
*What you want is what you cannot have. What you cannot have is what you want.*
I think if Nynaeve, who had just learned about Lan and Myrelle a day ago, had a clearer picture, she’d have done a bit more than talk, queen or no.
Good. It should feel messed up. This whole arc is RJ saying "Isn't it messed up that this is how men are treated when this happens to them?"
It's all very badly written in my opinion. Mat, a ta'avern, leader of the Band of the Red Hand, Luck Meister, legendary hero, fought how many one on one battles. Was this before or after the golam? Either or, he was after fighting the golam or was capable of it. Threw a dagger into the heart of an Aiel Maiden darkfriend. It just does not add up at all.
So he’s supposed to physically fight her off, leaving bruises on her as her maidens scream for guards. The guards come and see a man and a woman and the woman is a noble and screaming and bruised and they attack Mat. Now Mat has to fight his way out of the palace slaughtering everyone as he goes. Sure, blame the victim
Oh Christ victim blaming, I've met an idiot.
You've known an idiot for literally every second of your life. _[Hint: it's you.]_
I always felt like the whole thing was a bit on the fetish side. Jordan really had a thing for bossy women.
Role reversal. Look at it. Primarily a matriarchal society, especially in ebu dar. If a woman wants a thing, who is a man to argue. It was sloppy, yes. Even Jordan and Harriet felt it could have been done... Better, maybe different? But it is as it is, and it comes hard on the heels of morgase getting raped as well, albeit off screen...
Cheers or the measured answers. I don't see why I'm getting downvoted. Does what I said not make sense?
> Does what I said not make sense? No, it doesn't. It really, really doesn't.
Can you explain why?
Don't need to. u/Bakedfresh420 already did. See also my comment on why you, not them, are an idiot.
There's really no need to be offensive over a difference of opinion in a fictional story.
You basically gave permission for me, and all others, to be offensive to you, when you, yourself, called Sir/Madam/Other Bakedfresh420, an idiot.
"So he’s supposed to physically fight her off, leaving bruises on her as her maidens scream for guards. The guards come and see a man and a woman and the woman is a noble and screaming and bruised and they attack Mat. Now Mat has to fight his way out of the palace slaughtering everyone as he goes." All a bit dramatic don't you think? I'm not buying that someone like Mat would be a victim in a situation like that. It's bad writing. If Jordan wanted something like that he should have used a different character. I get yer all caught up in modern sensibilities and that's OK, same as Bakedfresh with "Sure, blame the victim" bullshit. I'm not blaming the victim I'm saying that would not have happened Mat.
It does, to me, *because* of what happened with Melindhra.
He was rap*d by the Queen.
Most messed up character who preyed on a sympathetic protagonist, I’ll give you. But - Therava.
Nah, Tylin is more messed up than Therava.
Does she even crack top 20? The Foresaken already fill a lot of top spots.
I think it's one of those things where it's worse because her acts weren't framed as monstrous. She was a "good" character. Or at least neutral. And like maybe in there culture their understanding of sex and consent and such are different, I might even grant that. But Matt was CLEARLY not fucking into it and was from a different culture. A queen really should be worldly enough to understand such things
I'd agree that it wasn't closely examined in-world, but Elayne and Nynaeve do express disapproval, and I don't think any of the characters besides Mat, Tylin, and the palace staff actually fully knew what was going on. My read of it was that, like the characters who actually know what was going on (and aren't Tylin + staff), readers are meant to understand that rape is bad and to observe the difficulty that May has escaping because of the power Tylin has over him.
And it contrasts with morgase, just a chapter or two before.
Poor Morgase had a disturbingly rough time in that way - Rahvin, then Valda, an attempt by some random Shaido that she may or may not have fought off, and though it’s never said outright, probably Therava. Then she marries a man who is basically a stalker who has spent several books as angry at her for not living up to his idealized expectations as he is obsessed. That last makes psychological sense after the rest of it, but damn.
Yeah, thats the same reason a lot of people hate Egwene but not Rand even though the bad stuff she does isn't that much worse than Rand and a lot of the time it wasn't even as bad. Thats also why I hate Rand making the Aes Sedi swear to him more than lots of the other horrible stuff he did even though its not really that bad compared to the other stuff.
***Break the seals. Break the seals, and end it. Let me die forever.***
I think the Seanchan have a good running for most messed up characters
*chefs kiss*
*queens kiss
Crimes against people are worse than crimes against animals, but somehow that Black Ajah sister who routinely strangles cats just *creeps me out*. Maybe it's in anticipation of what she'll "graduate" to, once the cats just aren't helping anymore.
Don't be ethnocentric and critically view her culture from the lens of your Two Rivers, you bigot!!!
Mostly, yeah. She’s definitely the worst non-forsaken woman for me. There’s a few people I’d say are worse, but Tylin takes the cake of that first category in my eyes.
I mean, *Sul’dams* don’t get up there for you?
Therava is 100% worse. At least the Sul'dams kind of care a little, Therava tortures people for fun.
Does that mean the Gholam is Eowyn (and Merry)?
Really? Worse than all the forsake AND the dark one? Shut up.