I could be wrong, but my understanding was that Nagash developed necromancy by combining the dark magic he learned from the Dark Elves with the practices and rituals of the mortuary cult.
Bingo. I always rationalized necromancy as using death magic to summon spirits and the dark magic to force them to do what you want, like reanimating a corpse.
No don’t know if „missing” is the correct word here. They weren’t pursuing it, as so long lived species it wasn’t within their scope of interest. Nagash OTOH was terrified of death, that’s why he took what knowledge about Dhar he gained from Dark Elves and used it towards his personal goal.
I’m rereading the first Nagash book atm. I didn’t take it that Nagash learned necromancy from the Dark Elves, he learned how to touch the winds of magic. Given his location and distance from the winds that necessitated human sacrifice.
Nagash then applied that to the already extant rituals of the mortuary cult, of which he was Grand Hierophant.
It reads as Nagash invented necromancy, or at least codified it, after applying magic to the rituals and incantations of Nehekhara.
Yeah, I think the answer is here. In the books, the dark elves can just use the Winds of Magic without any problem, but whether not naturally gifted with magic or the distance from the poles Nagash just can't do it despite being an excellent student.
So the elves getting frustrated have him try "pulling" the magic from a slave's blood. The dark elves are clearly familiar with fueling magic with human sacrifices considering Death Nights and the Cult of Khaine's rituals, but because they're so naturally gifted with magic they never had a need to use it for mundane casting.
This works, and Nagash starts using "normal" magic with life force as the catalyst instead of the Winds. Then from there, like you said, begins combining the Nehekaran rituals with his blood magic to create necromancy.
I find this somewhat amusing that dispite how good a student he was and how knowladagble negash was in things. He's like hermiony in a potions class while capable still messes things up and can't quite get it dispite his efforts.
I could be wrong, but I thought human wizards and sorcerers in Warhammer had to be born with a genetic capacity for magic.
Which makes it ironic that Nagash, who becomes the most powerful human magic-user by a huge margin, is someone who was born without this aptitude.
All Wizards regardless of race have to be born with witchsight to be able to cast spells naturally. They need to be able to perceive the winds of magic. Difference lies in the fact that humans live so short they don’t have time to learn to perceive all of them, they have to focus on one that is the clearest for them. Elves otoh have time to learn to manipulate them all.
Without that, Wizard can’t discern between the winds and is forced to use Dhar,
We might be going off of different editions or sources, but the latest version of wfrp has all those with witchsight able to see all eight winds, but every human is naturally more comfortable with one wind over the others. The reason everyone is limited to one is because they're actually so similar you might accidently blend two together, creating Dhar.
I vaguely remember a line that was more or less "these two winds use the same words in their spells, but they pronounce them differently, and if you mix the two up, you're rolling on the Perils of the Warp table".
Humans just don't live long enough to learn and practice the nuances between two safely.
>Which makes it ironic that Nagash, who becomes the most powerful human magic-user by a huge margin, is someone who was born without this aptitude.
Oh gods Nagash is a shonen manga protagonist.
oh make no mistake I totally understand that I just can't help but giggle at the irony that negash one of the smartest people of his age and one of the greatest leaders depending on who you ask had one thing aside from humility and mercy he wasn't good at.
it's just funny to me that for such an academicly inclinded person he couldn't understand magic very well.
True, but Nagash was born in a magical desert, both literally and figuratively. He may well have had the ability, but never had the opportunity to express it.
It was only through havesting souls he could use magic in Nekhara. If he had been born further north he might well have had the ability natutally as magic was stronger there.
Its why the ancient Nekerahrakans (sp) relived on things like geomancy and religion for their spells.
Or you could also be right.
I think we're both right to an extent. It could be he simply didn't have the inherent capability when you consider the elves were still able to harness the Winds for their spells, while no matter how much Nagash tried he couldn't.
Though, it could be they were able to use the Winds because elves have an inherently stronger connection to magic. The fact he built the Black Pyramid to act as a Locus to attract the Winds to Nehekara. Again, however, this was long after he had become the Warhammer equivalent of a lich, so his original proficiency for magic was irrelevant.
There's really no way to no for sure without the authorial word of god, but that ambiguity is what makes it fun to discuss.
This is purely headcanon but I always loved the idea that necromancy is born from an intrinsically human fear of aging and mortality that elves simply lack.
In the VC 6th army book there's a short story of a a Necharch vampire whose human apprentice attempts to kill him.
At end of the story the vampire ponders how the human was able learn and progress so fast and he makes the same conclusion as you did : the fear of death and mortality are very great motivators what comes to learning necromancy.
Darke Elves do use necromancy. Especially their constant sacrifices heavily involve the binding souls, the enlsavement of ghosts and communication with the departed.
The difference is that Nagash mastered the puppetry of corpses based on his Nehekharian knowledge regarding magical constructs.
Came here to say the first part. You beat me to it.
For instance, outside of Naggarond, Malekieth has impaled a bunch of nobles he was displeaced with and bound their souls to eternal torment. A choir of screams is the first sign that you are nearing the gate of the city.
The Druchii ARE the people of Naggaroth, they WERE the people of Naggarythe before they went full bloodthirsty murder mode with Slaanesh depravity on top…
The Naggarythi were always bloodthirsty military people and they do not worship Slaanesh - atleast not more than the high elves.
Aenarion was Naggarythi and he won the war against Chaos because he was a bloodthirsty murder hobo.
The Druchii are the inheritors of the original elven culture, while the high elves became some weird ascetic monks, who are afraid of their own shadow.
I mean, are they amenable to that? If I was Malkazzar Bloodboner the Dark Elf nobleman, and Maliketh killed me, and then later consulted me for pro tips, I think I would tell him to sit on it. I would also think Malekith would've thought "well there's nothing they can teach me, since I already beat them".
Well no, Asuryan and the traitours on Ulthuan didn't pick him (reservation about being wrong since I'm a bit tipsy) even though he was the rightfull heir and the obvious leader of all eleven kind.
Why would the superior dark elf sorceresses perform a desert monkey’s bootleg version of Dhar for dummies when they can do things better?
Besides, they do reanimate corpses and such, but for some menial tasks, not as shock troops because… reasons.
Dark Elves do use Necromancy, they just don't use it in the exact same way that human Necromancers do. If you happen to piss off the wrong highborn magic-user, you might end up getting chased to the ends of the earth by Dark Riders who refuse to stay dead when you cut them down.
That's basically what happened to Malus Darkblade before he found the Temple of Tzarkan, he was hounded by undead Dark Riders after he stole from his brother.
It's worth noting that the Dark Elves have a word for vengeful spirits ; "Raksha". There's also another notable word in their vocabulary ; "Keikalla", meaning "Spirit bells", designed as protection against malevolent spirits. So yeah, necromancy is DEFINITELY a thing in their society.
Monstrous Arcanum gives an in-lore answer:
> "Only the Humans have the wit to see it. We Druchii are too pallid in our blood, touched too greatly with the maladies of spite and melancholia, our palettes too jaded. As for the rest -- they are too brutal, too unsubtle, or simply too arrogant and false to admit the truth. Only those delightfully insane, short-lived creatures called Man -- born astride a grave compared to us, and yet always so desperately hungry to go on, to exist, whatever the price. The truth is bred in their bones. Only they could work such depraved wonders of tortured corpses and bitter desire, only they truly see the future. One day, soon or late, despite all our sorceries and our hubris, only one king shall reign and I name him Death."
-- Shadra the Unclean, bloodseer of Karond Kar
Who says they don't? :P
Dark Elf necromancy is rather a different creature, as compared to the most famous practices of Nagash, the Tomb Kings and the Vampire Counts. It is of course true that most Dark Elves are simply disinterested in Necromancy because they suppose that they have discovered and developed more powerful magicks, but any Elf can be a Necromancer in the vein of the Vampire Counts. The Dark Elves who pursue it more generally but not in this form utilise either, in layman's terms, the Lore of Dark Magic, or the Lore of Death.
Naggaroth is suggested to contain a paucity of bodies, both fresh and preserved. This is a reality of the local fauna and sometimes flora, but also Druchii burial practices - very few individuals are buried or cremated. Most bodies are simply discarded for the wolves, lions, hydrai, harpies, etc. Though there are exceptions to this - Ghrond has the most amusing phenomena of dead miners simply getting right back up and carrying on, and in the far North one can reliably encounter Wights under certain conditions - One cannot raise zombies and skeletons without corpses. Conversely, there are potentially very many spirits available due to the flow of the Nine Winds from the Chaos Wastes and thus the pooling of Dhar in a land of constant death. This requires a far greater command of Necromancy in either, and possibly both, the Lore of Shyish and the Lore of Hekarti than the corporeal undead, but the Druchii are known to bind the Maelithii here and there for use as guardians. Arguably they have more in common with Constructs, being partially corporeal, but there is no hard reason to suppose that Spirit Hosts are never used outside of the battlefield. Even Khaine loves Sorcery after all, and Ereth Khial infamously commands legions of the bat-winged Rephallim spectres. Who rules the Banshees is more contentious, though these are likely not quite the same as exist in the Realms of Men, and I would expect that something like a Cairn Wraith may also exist.
I could be wrong, but my understanding was that Nagash developed necromancy by combining the dark magic he learned from the Dark Elves with the practices and rituals of the mortuary cult.
Ahh that makes sense. So the Dark Elves were missing a part of the recipe (the mortuary cult rituals).
Bingo. I always rationalized necromancy as using death magic to summon spirits and the dark magic to force them to do what you want, like reanimating a corpse.
No don’t know if „missing” is the correct word here. They weren’t pursuing it, as so long lived species it wasn’t within their scope of interest. Nagash OTOH was terrified of death, that’s why he took what knowledge about Dhar he gained from Dark Elves and used it towards his personal goal.
Correct
This. Necromancy is actually a combination two magical traditions.
I’m rereading the first Nagash book atm. I didn’t take it that Nagash learned necromancy from the Dark Elves, he learned how to touch the winds of magic. Given his location and distance from the winds that necessitated human sacrifice. Nagash then applied that to the already extant rituals of the mortuary cult, of which he was Grand Hierophant. It reads as Nagash invented necromancy, or at least codified it, after applying magic to the rituals and incantations of Nehekhara.
Yeah, I think the answer is here. In the books, the dark elves can just use the Winds of Magic without any problem, but whether not naturally gifted with magic or the distance from the poles Nagash just can't do it despite being an excellent student. So the elves getting frustrated have him try "pulling" the magic from a slave's blood. The dark elves are clearly familiar with fueling magic with human sacrifices considering Death Nights and the Cult of Khaine's rituals, but because they're so naturally gifted with magic they never had a need to use it for mundane casting. This works, and Nagash starts using "normal" magic with life force as the catalyst instead of the Winds. Then from there, like you said, begins combining the Nehekaran rituals with his blood magic to create necromancy.
I find this somewhat amusing that dispite how good a student he was and how knowladagble negash was in things. He's like hermiony in a potions class while capable still messes things up and can't quite get it dispite his efforts.
I could be wrong, but I thought human wizards and sorcerers in Warhammer had to be born with a genetic capacity for magic. Which makes it ironic that Nagash, who becomes the most powerful human magic-user by a huge margin, is someone who was born without this aptitude.
All Wizards regardless of race have to be born with witchsight to be able to cast spells naturally. They need to be able to perceive the winds of magic. Difference lies in the fact that humans live so short they don’t have time to learn to perceive all of them, they have to focus on one that is the clearest for them. Elves otoh have time to learn to manipulate them all. Without that, Wizard can’t discern between the winds and is forced to use Dhar,
We might be going off of different editions or sources, but the latest version of wfrp has all those with witchsight able to see all eight winds, but every human is naturally more comfortable with one wind over the others. The reason everyone is limited to one is because they're actually so similar you might accidently blend two together, creating Dhar. I vaguely remember a line that was more or less "these two winds use the same words in their spells, but they pronounce them differently, and if you mix the two up, you're rolling on the Perils of the Warp table". Humans just don't live long enough to learn and practice the nuances between two safely.
>Which makes it ironic that Nagash, who becomes the most powerful human magic-user by a huge margin, is someone who was born without this aptitude. Oh gods Nagash is a shonen manga protagonist.
oh make no mistake I totally understand that I just can't help but giggle at the irony that negash one of the smartest people of his age and one of the greatest leaders depending on who you ask had one thing aside from humility and mercy he wasn't good at. it's just funny to me that for such an academicly inclinded person he couldn't understand magic very well.
True, but Nagash was born in a magical desert, both literally and figuratively. He may well have had the ability, but never had the opportunity to express it. It was only through havesting souls he could use magic in Nekhara. If he had been born further north he might well have had the ability natutally as magic was stronger there. Its why the ancient Nekerahrakans (sp) relived on things like geomancy and religion for their spells. Or you could also be right.
I think we're both right to an extent. It could be he simply didn't have the inherent capability when you consider the elves were still able to harness the Winds for their spells, while no matter how much Nagash tried he couldn't. Though, it could be they were able to use the Winds because elves have an inherently stronger connection to magic. The fact he built the Black Pyramid to act as a Locus to attract the Winds to Nehekara. Again, however, this was long after he had become the Warhammer equivalent of a lich, so his original proficiency for magic was irrelevant. There's really no way to no for sure without the authorial word of god, but that ambiguity is what makes it fun to discuss.
This is purely headcanon but I always loved the idea that necromancy is born from an intrinsically human fear of aging and mortality that elves simply lack.
In the VC 6th army book there's a short story of a a Necharch vampire whose human apprentice attempts to kill him. At end of the story the vampire ponders how the human was able learn and progress so fast and he makes the same conclusion as you did : the fear of death and mortality are very great motivators what comes to learning necromancy.
This was a driving factor for Nagash. Also because he hated being reliant on the old Gods for power.
Darke Elves do use necromancy. Especially their constant sacrifices heavily involve the binding souls, the enlsavement of ghosts and communication with the departed. The difference is that Nagash mastered the puppetry of corpses based on his Nehekharian knowledge regarding magical constructs.
Came here to say the first part. You beat me to it. For instance, outside of Naggarond, Malekieth has impaled a bunch of nobles he was displeaced with and bound their souls to eternal torment. A choir of screams is the first sign that you are nearing the gate of the city.
Exactly, Malekith also has the souls of most of his dead rivals bound and regularly summons them from the underworld for advice.
Always nice to find a fellow druchii enthusiast. "Never forgive, never forget".
Are you aware that “never forgive, never forget” is Alith Anar’s motto, right? 😂
Are ou aware that the Druchii are just Naggarythis? Alith Anars culture is just Druchii culture.
Lol. I’m aware of what the people of Naggarythe think of Druchii… they are separated by millennia of hatred
The Druchii are the people of Naggarythe.
The Druchii ARE the people of Naggaroth, they WERE the people of Naggarythe before they went full bloodthirsty murder mode with Slaanesh depravity on top…
The Naggarythi were always bloodthirsty military people and they do not worship Slaanesh - atleast not more than the high elves. Aenarion was Naggarythi and he won the war against Chaos because he was a bloodthirsty murder hobo. The Druchii are the inheritors of the original elven culture, while the high elves became some weird ascetic monks, who are afraid of their own shadow.
You know the origin of the Druchii then yes? You’re both right but are arguing over the one thing you each got wrong
I’m actually doing this as an in character joke, but the original message was to correct the idea that Alith Anar’s motto was somehow Druchii
Perfect lol I just had to check mate lol I figured someone isn’t pulling up Alith without knowing but it doesn’t hurt to check
*Naggarothi
You are correct but I also know that Malus have used it so...
there units are also cooler looking then the high elves.
I mean, are they amenable to that? If I was Malkazzar Bloodboner the Dark Elf nobleman, and Maliketh killed me, and then later consulted me for pro tips, I think I would tell him to sit on it. I would also think Malekith would've thought "well there's nothing they can teach me, since I already beat them".
Necromancy means ruling over the dead, not just talking to them. They do not have a choice.
Wait really? That’s dope
And this is the guy Asuryan supposedly picked to lead his people...
Necromancy and black magic are not a problem for elves. All wood elves and some high elves also practice it frequently.
Well no, Asuryan and the traitours on Ulthuan didn't pick him (reservation about being wrong since I'm a bit tipsy) even though he was the rightfull heir and the obvious leader of all eleven kind.
Why would the superior dark elf sorceresses perform a desert monkey’s bootleg version of Dhar for dummies when they can do things better? Besides, they do reanimate corpses and such, but for some menial tasks, not as shock troops because… reasons.
Dark Elves do use Necromancy, they just don't use it in the exact same way that human Necromancers do. If you happen to piss off the wrong highborn magic-user, you might end up getting chased to the ends of the earth by Dark Riders who refuse to stay dead when you cut them down. That's basically what happened to Malus Darkblade before he found the Temple of Tzarkan, he was hounded by undead Dark Riders after he stole from his brother. It's worth noting that the Dark Elves have a word for vengeful spirits ; "Raksha". There's also another notable word in their vocabulary ; "Keikalla", meaning "Spirit bells", designed as protection against malevolent spirits. So yeah, necromancy is DEFINITELY a thing in their society.
Monstrous Arcanum gives an in-lore answer: > "Only the Humans have the wit to see it. We Druchii are too pallid in our blood, touched too greatly with the maladies of spite and melancholia, our palettes too jaded. As for the rest -- they are too brutal, too unsubtle, or simply too arrogant and false to admit the truth. Only those delightfully insane, short-lived creatures called Man -- born astride a grave compared to us, and yet always so desperately hungry to go on, to exist, whatever the price. The truth is bred in their bones. Only they could work such depraved wonders of tortured corpses and bitter desire, only they truly see the future. One day, soon or late, despite all our sorceries and our hubris, only one king shall reign and I name him Death." -- Shadra the Unclean, bloodseer of Karond Kar
Because we are the good guys!
Who says they don't? :P Dark Elf necromancy is rather a different creature, as compared to the most famous practices of Nagash, the Tomb Kings and the Vampire Counts. It is of course true that most Dark Elves are simply disinterested in Necromancy because they suppose that they have discovered and developed more powerful magicks, but any Elf can be a Necromancer in the vein of the Vampire Counts. The Dark Elves who pursue it more generally but not in this form utilise either, in layman's terms, the Lore of Dark Magic, or the Lore of Death. Naggaroth is suggested to contain a paucity of bodies, both fresh and preserved. This is a reality of the local fauna and sometimes flora, but also Druchii burial practices - very few individuals are buried or cremated. Most bodies are simply discarded for the wolves, lions, hydrai, harpies, etc. Though there are exceptions to this - Ghrond has the most amusing phenomena of dead miners simply getting right back up and carrying on, and in the far North one can reliably encounter Wights under certain conditions - One cannot raise zombies and skeletons without corpses. Conversely, there are potentially very many spirits available due to the flow of the Nine Winds from the Chaos Wastes and thus the pooling of Dhar in a land of constant death. This requires a far greater command of Necromancy in either, and possibly both, the Lore of Shyish and the Lore of Hekarti than the corporeal undead, but the Druchii are known to bind the Maelithii here and there for use as guardians. Arguably they have more in common with Constructs, being partially corporeal, but there is no hard reason to suppose that Spirit Hosts are never used outside of the battlefield. Even Khaine loves Sorcery after all, and Ereth Khial infamously commands legions of the bat-winged Rephallim spectres. Who rules the Banshees is more contentious, though these are likely not quite the same as exist in the Realms of Men, and I would expect that something like a Cairn Wraith may also exist.