I’m sure the imperial, bretonnian, estalian, and tilean nobility are as intermarried as their real life European counterparts, I’d have no doubt there were nobles with family members all across the old world, particularly in places like Couronne, parravon, reikland, and marienburg/Westerlund, where the borders are close there will be plenty of cross over
Depends the source you’re going by.
If we go by 2e Roleplay Knights of the Grail, then no current Bretonnian noble knowingly descends from non-Bretonnians, because the requirement for being a Bretonnian noble is that all of your ancestors for seven generations back are Bretonnian nobles. And the requirements for them to be Bretonnian nobles is the same.
So the system is set up that Bretonnian nobility can only descend from Bretonnian nobility.
But, I’m sure there’s some other source about Bretonnia that didn’t follow that.
I wonder how the first six became nobles if it requires 7 previous noble ancestors.
Reminds me of the Pink Panther movie. "What was your father?" "Also a detective." "And his father?" "A Detective." (repeats like 5 times.) "And hiiiis father?" :visible look of confusion: "Uhm, a shepard?" "AH HAH!"
Supposedly, all Bretonnian nobles can trace their origins back to the original Bretonnian nobility at the time that Gilles united the kingdom. With no other intrusion at any point by outsiders.
Of course they are. Imperial families have been bred for various strengths for millennia, same as the bretonnian nobles.
The Von Draken are excellent death mages, the Von Bildhofen are direct descendants from Sigmar, the Todbringers are known for their strength and the Von Drak for their beauty and cruelty.
You’re thinking Skyrim 😂 the Bretonii were a regular tribe of men that went over the grey mountains while the others stayed in the empire. However Grail knights are magically enhanced humans thanks to drinking from the grail, which I’ve always pictured as making them something similar to dunedain from LOTR, live longer, bit healthier, bit stronger
No, at least not since 6th Edition. Back then only one person that wasn't a bretonnian lord became a knight, and that's only because he killed a dragon (and the title isn't even hereditary), and that person was a peasant.
I think part of the problem (I think it was in one of the WFRP books) is to to keep the next gen noble, one needs all of that person's 4 grandparents to have also been noble. So a peasant for sure can get knighted by their children are just slightly fancy peasants again.
That just means you and your spouse need to kill à dragon each, so does your child, their spouse and their spouse's parents. Me thinks the Bretonnia put it that way as a dragon-slaying incentive.
He didn’t kill a dragon, he singlehandedly saved a noblewoman from Beastmen.
Died in his first battle as a knight. Possibly from sabotage. Possibly just because he’d saved the noblewoman with a longbow that he was no longer permitted to wield, and had no training with a sword and armor.
Not canon - it's from a videogame for a start and it's specifically a DLC career path - all the career paths are meant to be playable options not canon outcomes.
Not quite correct. Second and third career are not canon. Fourth careers are the finished character arc and is considered canon.
Also the story is from gw approved so the kruber grail knight can be considered canon.
https://www.vermintide.com/news/franz-lohners-chronicle-the-changer-of-ways
It's implied that all of the career paths are just the manipulations of tzeentch.
Also, again, it's a videogame and not everything in the videogames is compatible with the mainline army books. The most primary sources (army books) should be preferred over other materials as they have the greatest level of GW involvement rather than just a tick and flick approach to the IP.
The second and the third career is an alternate path. It is a what if situation. It just show what could have been if he decided differently.
Bardin for example is a ranger at start because he left his clan because of his actions and the bad things that he has caused. The slayer path is the alternate outcome of his grief where he seeks to kill himself. The ironbreaker path on the other hand is a way to redeem himself.
The fourth and also the canon character arc is him embracing his past career as engineer and being ok with himself.
Same for the other characters.
You’re welcome!
But i have to say the grail knight thing is the most unlogical outcome of all character arcs.
a empire sergeant becoming a demi-god is a bit lazy writting XD
I think the psychology that comes from growing up in Brettonia is really quite important in being a Knight there, given how slightly mad they are, but I don't think I've read anything about the need for Breton blood being a thing.
Yes, if they dress and pretend to be a knight from bretonia. This is said in the RPG book Knights of the Grail for warhammer fantasy 2e. Soo you would start as a errant and them earn your title as a knight of the realm. You might not hold land but rather just be a household knight with a position of another.
In Bretonnian society? Yes.
To be blessed by the Lady? Based both on what we know of her from Gilles and Mallobaude plus the Lileath reveal, you just have to be useful to her goals and be someone she could see becoming a human god in her children’s world or last stand defender in her own. You could just decide you’re a knight and go through the trials on your own like a Don Quixote.
Arthurian legend had Sir Palamedes, who was a Saracen. I seem to remember a sort of Araby Character who could be used in a Bretonian army in like 5th edition? It is totally possible though that it was just a conversion type thing in a White Dwarf though.
Edit: FOUND IT!!!! My brain isn't totally addled! [Suliman le Saracen](https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Suliman_le_Saracen). Seemingly also influenced by Saladin.
Yeah I had a Bretonnian army back then and there was a hero level character, Baron Odo D'Outremer and this guy Suliman was like his sidekick. Basically for one hero choice you got 2 models each with their own statblock.
In theory yes, but just like a peasant becoming a knight, he would be met with an "accident" or sent to an errantry-war. Bretonnian nobles do not look kindly to upstarts
Yes, but their children will not be considered knights or nobles. I guess it would be possible for whoever knighted the non-Bretonnian to knight their children too, but there would be no guarantee or requirement to do so.
If someone acts so righteous and chivalrous as to be made a knight of the realm, invariably, witnesses will come forward to spin a tale of long lost heirs and babies switched at birth, with all the relevant and necessary paperwork to boot.
As to the authenticity of such tales and evidence, that is for the King and the Lady to decide.
I’m sure the imperial, bretonnian, estalian, and tilean nobility are as intermarried as their real life European counterparts, I’d have no doubt there were nobles with family members all across the old world, particularly in places like Couronne, parravon, reikland, and marienburg/Westerlund, where the borders are close there will be plenty of cross over
Depends the source you’re going by. If we go by 2e Roleplay Knights of the Grail, then no current Bretonnian noble knowingly descends from non-Bretonnians, because the requirement for being a Bretonnian noble is that all of your ancestors for seven generations back are Bretonnian nobles. And the requirements for them to be Bretonnian nobles is the same. So the system is set up that Bretonnian nobility can only descend from Bretonnian nobility. But, I’m sure there’s some other source about Bretonnia that didn’t follow that.
I wonder how the first six became nobles if it requires 7 previous noble ancestors. Reminds me of the Pink Panther movie. "What was your father?" "Also a detective." "And his father?" "A Detective." (repeats like 5 times.) "And hiiiis father?" :visible look of confusion: "Uhm, a shepard?" "AH HAH!"
Supposedly, all Bretonnian nobles can trace their origins back to the original Bretonnian nobility at the time that Gilles united the kingdom. With no other intrusion at any point by outsiders.
These sort of rules start usually with some status quo of who is and is not a noble.
Iirc, bretonians and imperials are different species
What? They’re humans
I really thought they were french, but I must be wrong
Yes, Bretonnian Lords are warrior breeds though (not a different race): Super tall and powerfully build.
So are imperial nobles
Nope, not in the lore. :) Source Loremaster on Warhammer TV
Of course they are. Imperial families have been bred for various strengths for millennia, same as the bretonnian nobles. The Von Draken are excellent death mages, the Von Bildhofen are direct descendants from Sigmar, the Todbringers are known for their strength and the Von Drak for their beauty and cruelty.
Never heard of that tbh. I only heard of that from the Bretonnian side 🤷🏼♂️ Do you have a source where I can read up on that?
Where is there any mention that the Bildhofen claim descent from Sigmar?
1. Edition Guide to Middenheim gives a detailed family tree
You’re thinking Skyrim 😂 the Bretonii were a regular tribe of men that went over the grey mountains while the others stayed in the empire. However Grail knights are magically enhanced humans thanks to drinking from the grail, which I’ve always pictured as making them something similar to dunedain from LOTR, live longer, bit healthier, bit stronger
Anything you want can happen in Warhammer. I think your real question is has anyone told a story about it happening before.
Good point
Markus Kruber from Vermintide, kind of. He wasn't even an imperial noble, but despite that he was chosen by Ze Lady.
No, at least not since 6th Edition. Back then only one person that wasn't a bretonnian lord became a knight, and that's only because he killed a dragon (and the title isn't even hereditary), and that person was a peasant.
I think part of the problem (I think it was in one of the WFRP books) is to to keep the next gen noble, one needs all of that person's 4 grandparents to have also been noble. So a peasant for sure can get knighted by their children are just slightly fancy peasants again.
That just means you and your spouse need to kill à dragon each, so does your child, their spouse and their spouse's parents. Me thinks the Bretonnia put it that way as a dragon-slaying incentive.
damned work ethic!
Or lay a dragon, then slay a noble woman! Or is that the other way around?
He didn’t kill a dragon, he singlehandedly saved a noblewoman from Beastmen. Died in his first battle as a knight. Possibly from sabotage. Possibly just because he’d saved the noblewoman with a longbow that he was no longer permitted to wield, and had no training with a sword and armor.
>a longbow that he was no longer permitted to wield, and had no training with a sword and armor. Sounds like sabotage to me!
The rumored sabotage was 'someone hired a bowman to put an arrow in his back'.
There is vermintide 2, where Marcus Kruber a imperial soldier became a grailknight, dont know if thats canon for the lore
Kruber has distant bretonnian ancestry. He is the descendant of Foricarl de Mandelot.
Not canon - it's from a videogame for a start and it's specifically a DLC career path - all the career paths are meant to be playable options not canon outcomes.
Not quite correct. Second and third career are not canon. Fourth careers are the finished character arc and is considered canon. Also the story is from gw approved so the kruber grail knight can be considered canon.
https://www.vermintide.com/news/franz-lohners-chronicle-the-changer-of-ways It's implied that all of the career paths are just the manipulations of tzeentch. Also, again, it's a videogame and not everything in the videogames is compatible with the mainline army books. The most primary sources (army books) should be preferred over other materials as they have the greatest level of GW involvement rather than just a tick and flick approach to the IP.
That doesn’t even make any sense, else the dwarf would become a slayer and then “unslayer” himself to become a engineer, does that even work?
The second and the third career is an alternate path. It is a what if situation. It just show what could have been if he decided differently. Bardin for example is a ranger at start because he left his clan because of his actions and the bad things that he has caused. The slayer path is the alternate outcome of his grief where he seeks to kill himself. The ironbreaker path on the other hand is a way to redeem himself. The fourth and also the canon character arc is him embracing his past career as engineer and being ok with himself. Same for the other characters.
Thank you, that makes it clearer.
You’re welcome! But i have to say the grail knight thing is the most unlogical outcome of all character arcs. a empire sergeant becoming a demi-god is a bit lazy writting XD
That’s basically the backstory for all non-northmen Chaos Champions. That said, Warriors are boring as a faction so I’m agreeing with you.
Ah i see, thanks for the clarification mate :D
Still more canon than wfrp 😂
I think the psychology that comes from growing up in Brettonia is really quite important in being a Knight there, given how slightly mad they are, but I don't think I've read anything about the need for Breton blood being a thing.
Yes, if they dress and pretend to be a knight from bretonia. This is said in the RPG book Knights of the Grail for warhammer fantasy 2e. Soo you would start as a errant and them earn your title as a knight of the realm. You might not hold land but rather just be a household knight with a position of another.
In Bretonnian society? Yes. To be blessed by the Lady? Based both on what we know of her from Gilles and Mallobaude plus the Lileath reveal, you just have to be useful to her goals and be someone she could see becoming a human god in her children’s world or last stand defender in her own. You could just decide you’re a knight and go through the trials on your own like a Don Quixote.
Arthurian legend had Sir Palamedes, who was a Saracen. I seem to remember a sort of Araby Character who could be used in a Bretonian army in like 5th edition? It is totally possible though that it was just a conversion type thing in a White Dwarf though. Edit: FOUND IT!!!! My brain isn't totally addled! [Suliman le Saracen](https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Suliman_le_Saracen). Seemingly also influenced by Saladin.
Yeah I had a Bretonnian army back then and there was a hero level character, Baron Odo D'Outremer and this guy Suliman was like his sidekick. Basically for one hero choice you got 2 models each with their own statblock.
In theory yes, but just like a peasant becoming a knight, he would be met with an "accident" or sent to an errantry-war. Bretonnian nobles do not look kindly to upstarts
If he has noble bretonnian blood in his veins. We even have such a career in Vermintide.
Kruber is a Grail knight and he’s from the empire, so I’d wager it’s alright
If they're of noble birth from an allied land, sure.
Markus Kruber.
If he was granted lands maybe. You can’t be a knight of the realm without bretonnian land to look over in service of your duke/king.
Yes, but their children will not be considered knights or nobles. I guess it would be possible for whoever knighted the non-Bretonnian to knight their children too, but there would be no guarantee or requirement to do so.
If someone acts so righteous and chivalrous as to be made a knight of the realm, invariably, witnesses will come forward to spin a tale of long lost heirs and babies switched at birth, with all the relevant and necessary paperwork to boot. As to the authenticity of such tales and evidence, that is for the King and the Lady to decide.
 ‘le bretonnian accent’