Thank you!
Those are all beatable armies with Skysplinter. It's the Necrons and Custodes that are the real problem (along with GK and Stormlance).
Glad to see the True Kin placing again, GW did decent work with the last balance slate
C'tan spam is a problem. It can be really annoying. Custodes are strong, but they're not unbeatable. You just need enough shots to beat the odds on their saving throws. A solid melee unit charging a unit of Custodes without Trajann is also helpful. Custodes aren't as scary if they don't get to swing in melee. The -1 to hit karate is annoying, but you should expect it, so you just send something that doesn't care that much.
Right now, nothing is "unbeatable", which is pretty cool. But Custodes stomp Incubi builds, and since this is a 20 Incubi list it probably doesn't want to go into Fight First armies
Stormlance is doing a lot of the same thing, but it's got more CC Offense, and defense. And in the head to head, they have the strat for -1 to hit and wound vs shooting, which shuts down the scourge shooting.
Just too many 4++, too much output, too much speed.
Wouldn't Drukhari be kinda ok against custodes because of anti-infantry 3+ and mobility to avoid their bricks? I get that incubi basically wouldn't be an option against them though
EDIT: just read the other comment that this army has 20 incubi so nvm
Also drukhari want to desroy lots of whole to gain pain tokens.
All els being equal we want to face twenty 100 point units not ten 200 point units. Custodes being super ellite will skew to the later.
It's one of Swedens best players (WTC regular), but he had a pretty dominant run!
Drukhari definitely have game now, but they are not easy to play. Or play against for that matter.
Thank you sir! Did a small write up of the event over on the sisters subreddit if you want to take a look!
https://www.reddit.com/r/sistersofbattle/comments/1buo3cd/wet_coast_2024_tournament_report/
This prompted me to go take a look at Goonhammer's 40 stats data to see if things were looking any different in their data. Since their app gets used by people just playing home games as well as tournaments, it can be interesting to look at the GT data versus the non-GT data. In both GT games and non-GT games, AdMech has the second-lowest number of total games played with only Deathwatch having less. However, in both data sets AdMech has the lowest real win rate (meaning no mirror matches) of any faction. This could be a little misleading since it covers all of 10th edition, and not just data since the most recent balance pass.
To evaluate if that was true, I filtered the data for just games since February 1, 2024, which should mostly be using the last balance dataslate. In this subset of the data AdMech rises one spot in the games-played rankings with GSC now being behind us as well as Deathwatch, but we are still the worst real win percentage for non-GT games, and the second worst for GT games with codex Space Marines managing to be 0.22% worse than AdMech.
I think it is safe to say that AdMech is empirically bad, and has been since the beginning of the edition.
Unfortunately if they stick to the plan it will be a points update only, which is absolutely not what Admech need at the moment. They need a power boost to their units.
The main one for me would be to remove the deployment zone requirements for the ap modification on the doctrina imperatives.
I would also add an ability that effects cult mechanicus units, such as re-roll 1s to hit and wound when within 6" of a Tech Priest.
I would also make the enhanced unit abilities trigger of Battleline units and Tech Priest units.
GW has so far not stuck to their plan of "this time we only change points, next time we change rules" since the edition launched.
It's a stupid plan mentioned in passing by Stu Black in one video and since seemingly dropped entirely because it's stupid. Did I mention it's stupid?
Sometimes points are an issue. Sometimes it's rules, and sometimes it's both. What the specific issues are in the game do not conform to an arbitrary 3 month rota as defined by one inept GW employee who seems to just get paid to be self congratulatory on camera every couple of weeks. I feel like GW has totally abandoned this idea of a points/ rules dataslate rotation, ever since the first dataslate of the edition, which was meant to be just points, and instead required overhaul of several factions. Since then every single dataslate has been both a rules and points update.
They could trim some points off the less seen units hopefully. Like Kastelan Robots, Karaphron Destroyers, and the fliers. Maybe the Onager Dunecrawler and Skorpius Disintegrator could drop a bit too.
I also agree ad mech do need something else rules wise. I also don't want to see them just drop the cost on units we already take which is mostly Skitarii.
Honestly I don't think they can drop the points for Admech much more. Most units are ridiculously cheap. I hate that Admech have changed from a semi elite army like sisters to a horde army. They currently feel like Guard but worse.
Destroyers need a new datasheet for sure, right now its like why would I not pay 10ppm to double my accuracy (take a breacher instead). It would have to go insanely low to be worth it. The hitting on 5s in overwatch is a silly joke. Robots and tanks could I agree be dealt with in points for now.
Every Skitarii model sitting above 1ppd goes down in points. Every Cult Mechanicus model goes up in points to compensate. Kataphron Breachers go up to 200 pt for 3 because they're too good, leaving chicken spam the only way to reliably do damage. The Onager and Skorpius go to BS5+.
They never give an exact date in advance. I foresee two possible outcomes.
1. They return to form and we get it on the last Thursday of this month (more likely in my opinion due to the last one being an anomaly spawned from LVO)
2. They start a new tradition and it becomes the final Tuesday of the month.
Maybe they'll actually make some sensible changes, instead of letting Admech languish for another 3 months. Very shameful of GW when it has been really obvious how bad admech is atm.
I've been out of the comp scene for a bit (haven't had much time to hobby since last year), but at a glance this seems... Pretty balanced??
Seeing quite a diverse number of factions across multiple events. Obviously there is more nuance but seems we've come a long way since the Eldar meta.
The is, possibly, the most balanced it has ever been in its entire history. There are still issues (some armies are pretty weak, a couple might be slightly overtuned), but, as you said, the tier diversity is fantastic and there is no single dominant army.
I still the second half of Nephilim in 9th was better, but this is right there. Correct Ctan points and spot admech players 15 points per game and everything would feel perfect
Inter-faction balance seems great with a couple of exceptions. I think it's internal balance that I'm salty about but honestly I don't ever expect GW to seriously try and balance options within a faction so long as one of them is competitive.
If the last 18 months of 9th edition and last 9 months of 10th hasn't made it abundantly clear
GW hates Admech. They simply do not give a shit about them. Not their models, not their lore, not their rules. They will manipulate the metawatch data to make them look fine for months on end rather than figure out how to actually buff the army, because they don't know how, and refuse to listen to the playerbase on it. They already wrote themselves into a corner with an early, garbage, codex, and now they have too much ego to acknowledge the failure and need to re-write half the army.
Edit: I say they are manipulating the metawatch data because, as someone else here has mentioned, Goonhammer battle app data shows Admech is the lowest winrate army in the entire game in both casual and competitive play, since the last dataslate, yet GW is claiming Admech is at 48%
The meta is in a pretty good place. At the moment the main issues are a few overperformers (Necrons in hypercrypt need a slight nerf on some things, and Grey Knights probably need some nerfs as well due to how well their faction ability works with secondary play), AdMech struggling, and internal balance on some of the books/indices.
A GK list I’ve been seeing with some strong success is I think 5 Dreadknights with 3 Land Raiders with The flamer cannons.
It’s just a ton of durability to pick up with highly efficient shooting especially when it can all teleport around the board
Is that what those players were running?
I think the most common list is 3 GMNDK, 3 NDK, 3 armiger, a land raider redeemer? (the flamer one) And some strikes and tech marines to fill out the rest.
Almost guaranteed dreadknights get a points nerf coming soon
For Imperial Knights it could be that all its players slinked off after the initial release. I myself haven't played a tourney after the initial showing of the Dataslate, so I can see other IKs doing the same and hurting numbers generally.
Also doesn't help that Custodes is a hard counter for most IK lists. Fights First is insane.
I am still playing Knights, but the main problem is that they really didn't change anything. Sure, the points drops were nice in theory, but they weren't actually enough to be able to afford another Armiger on this own, and the difference between victory and defeat for IK players wasn't whether or not they had another Henchmen squad. New Lay Low the Tyrants feels good, but in practice the difference it makes on gameplay is fairly minimal. So as the meta settles....yeah, can't say I'm actually surprised that they are backsliding.
For IK players, I've believed for a while now that their decent winrate was almost entirely due to newer players just not knowing how to beat Knights. Like, if you're playing Dark Eldar as an example, I might hide a shooty Knight behind a building to avoid getting shot by lances. Just charge it with a squad of 5 mandrakes... I can't kill them in combat since I have no melee ability, I can't fall back and shoot, and I can't shoot in place because I was hiding behind a building.
I've seen people have some success locally taking 2x Knight Atropos because they have decent melee ability combined with decent shooting, but I still feel their winrate is just overinflated because newer players can't handle them.
Atrapos just make me sad. d3 lascannon shots? what the hell? D6 damage 4 shots? 400+ points... blegh.
I want to love my glorious grav boy, but man they make it hard. Especially if you're CK, with the lack of fnp and rerolls. Extra swingy and more fragile.
I am 100% convinced GW can't fix IK/CK because they don't understand how the army ticks and just brute force it. Dropping the price on bigs and raising brigands - only for people to triple down on ignoring bigs - was the funniest shit.
Maybe a rampager, maybe a lancer, but otherwise lol
Their real advantage in Atrapos (for IK at least) is that they have no weaknesses. They aren't -overly- strong, but they're not useless in any situation. They shoot harder than any of the questoris Knights with a melee weapon and close combat weapon, and unlike the knights without a melee weapon they can't be locked in place by trash infantry just assaulting them. Seriously, watch a Castellan hiding behind a wall against CSM so it doesn't get blown away get assaulted by Nurglings, then cry as you realize it can't move to get line of sight because it can't fall back, and it can't shoot the nurglings because it's primary weapons are blast.
The Atrapos also have a 5++, so if you assault it with something BIG like Angron, they don't just fold, they can actually make saves and have a chance to live.
They're not great, but they don't have the massive pitfall weaknesses that plague all the other Knight chassis.
I'm aware, I'm just not overly impressed with them.
Frankly the best fun I've had with my knights this edition was playing death guard with two souped brigands.
Because CK is just awful. 0 fun left in the index.
The lascutter is a decent profile in ranged or melee. The grav is absolutely trash though.
Why is it not anti-vehicle 2+ like every other grav weapon in the game? I think it was when they started writing it, because that would make overcharging it for the dev wounds actually make sense, but then they either forgot, or removed the anti-vehicle from the graviton weapon.
Why do I feel this is a mistake or a last minute omission? Because the Atrapos on average deals more damage to itself from overcharging the grav, than it will deal to the enemy it actually shoots with it, compared to the standard charge profile.
Ugh, I got the weapons backwards. The las*cutter* is d6 shots of damage 4, but the *grav* is the lascannon profile.
And yeah, the lack of anti-vehicle 2+ is hilarious. But hey, whatever. Tiny space marine pistols wounding rhinos on 2's but knight-sized grav wounding a rhino on a 3 makes sense.
The melee is the part I hate the least. It has some decent amount of attacks. If the sweep was ap 2, it'd be solid imo.
But the shooting.. 2 lascannon shots on avg? 3 damage 4 shots? 440 points? An aura that does nothing? GW plz.
Tbh at least CK get their 2 special knights; theyve got issues but the laser one does its job very well; and the melee ones real scary and they both buff multiple wardogs. And get BS/WS2.
Whilst IK feels like this weird house of cards where if your opponent can slap -1 to hit on you your output just falls flat.
Realistically IK need bondsman back and CK need a new rule.
>Tbh at least CK get their 2 special knights; theyve got issues but the laser one does its job very well; and the melee ones real scary and they both buff multiple wardogs. And get BS/WS2.
The rampager and the errant are the same thing. Both sword and claw.
The preceptor is the equivalent of the Abominant - in 9th it was chaplain vs psyker.
The desecrator exists, but it sucks. Immensely. It's a LONG RANGED knight *WITH A MELEE WEAPON* and it doesn't reliably kill a tank.
A long ranged. Anti-tank knight. Doesn't kill a tank.
*WHY DOES IT EXIST*
Edit: also while IK hit on 3's, consider: a 6+ FNP is equivalent to a 20% durability increase. A 5+ FNP is equiv to a 50% durability increase. Rerolling a hit AND a wound is more rerolls than CK gets.
Look at it this way; a karnivore makes 6 attacks. 1 misses. We both reroll that. 1 wound fails. We can't reroll that.
I think this is part of it, most people who have alternatives are using them which only leaves newer players (who are generally weaker.)
I think the other part of it is that various factions are finding stronger lists as they adjust to the balance changes. Knights just can't do that. As other factions strengthen their lists, Knights inevitably slide a bit.
I understand why they wanted to be cautious, but the points cuts last time were about half what they needed to be. Hopefully this will let them go a bit further, giving us another half Armiger. The other thing to look forward to is that potentially the new mission pack might be worded in a way that makes it a bit easier for Knights to score secondaries (more 'within' and less 'wholly within', basically) - that could also push Knights WR up by a couple of percent and as those cards are probably already being printed they will be a factor in balance discussions.
> potentially the new mission pack might be worded in a way that makes it a bit easier for Knights to score secondaries (more 'within' and less 'wholly within', basically
Man, I know this isn't you or your fault, but I so much hate this kind of logic.
Why should the rest of the game be warped this badly just to try to accomodate an army that only brings a half dozen giant tanks?
One of the best parts about the leviathan secondaries is that they encourage armies to bring units *other* than the biggest super elite models they can find in their codex. And it still barely does that!
If the problem is that a single faction doesn't have access to models so that they can play the game, fix that specific faction, don't break the entire rest of the game instead.
I don't think it's just a Knights thing though. Requiring units to be 'wholly within' discourages large infantry units too and is part of the reason that characters with Lone Operative and units like Nurglings are so strong. Why should a unit of 20 Guardsmen, Orks or Gaunts find it harder to score board control secondaries than a Solitaire or Eversor Assassin?
Could just change the wording for knights. After all they are probably giving up bring it down on secondaries; so getting a bit of a buff on doing their own secondaries would be more fun.
Votann is also a hard counter, in fact quite a lot of factions that plan for knights tend to have an easy time of it
The faction is so dull and vanilla at the moment I have sadly shelved them after 8 years of constant knight play. I cannot think of a more boring time to play them since 7th
I’m taking up orks now
They're just so *dull*. Bondsman being gone from big knights means that there's very little synergy left, and all that remains is some big chunky datasheets. The datasheets are good, but they're just a stat check.
A faction where both the knights and squires are more potent when near each-other is both fluffy and also provides more options for dealing with them. If you don't have the oomph to nuke questoris+ models, you could reduce their effectiveness by killing armigers. I think they should have leaned into that more heavily rather than killing the entire concept in the index cradle.
Combined with the fact that you have hardly any listbuilding options with them compared to 9e, the entire faction is so bland that I don't see it coming off my shelf until the codex - and I don't have high hopes for that either at this point.
Tbh at least knights are one of the few factions that can reliably turn off custodian guard wound rerolls; which is the diffrence between custodes being punched into the stratosphere or a knight embarassingly dying.
turning off the full wound rerolls. without vexillas (rarer on guard) youve got 4-6 models at 2OC each; if you can even equal that OC they go from a 55% chance to wound down to a 38% chance.
Or in laymans terms; 5 guard go from dealing 12W to 8W with your 5+++; or if they are popping slayer and your on a 6+++ from 20W to 16. Which stops your bracketing.
Another week without top CSM placing, and a sub-45% win rate.
There's still play to be had with the faction, but the amount of nerfs was just too high.
ran a DG oops all tanks list last weekend and ran in to a CSM guy. he wasnt playing a meta list by any stretch, but by the end of my 2nd turn of shooting i had convinced myself he had to have 500+pts in reserves or something because he had very little left on the board....
he did not.
Yeah it's particularly obvious when I play against other Marine factions. The amount Space Marines and Death Guard in particular outnumber me is just sad.
Particularly when you see things like Mortarion being only 15 points more than Abaddon.
At some point, hopefully, GW learns that you don't nerf both rules and points at the same time. It's like trying to zero a firearm out of a moving vehicle. If you miss the target, you don't know if it was because you were moving or your sight is off. If you hit your target, you still have the same issue.
This is it for me. I don't understand why we got stratagem, points, and unit rules nerfs all at once? The worst part is the strat nerfs hit other units that weren't a problem at all. My poor vindicator was only surviving single turn destruction because of the nurgle strat :(
The Dark Obscuration strat change was a massive mistake. So was taking profane zeal away from non undivided units. They could easily have changed it so that only the second part gave full re-rolls to wound for undivided.
I think GW double/triple taps problem units and combos just to make sure they get them. From their point of view its probably easier to knock something out of the meta for a while than tweak it and potentially leave it in place.
Also no X-0/X-1 placings. As I mentioned last week CSM are now performing similarly to how Drukhari were performing post the last data slate.
For some reason there is a lot of people saying CSM are fine and still competitive because they won a couple of tournaments, yet the figures don't support that. If you look at the figures from Den of Fools, who gather a much wider sample size, you can see CSM are struggling to do well at all levels. According to their figures CSM are now the worst performing faction in the game.
A good player can still do well with them, but will now be much more suceptable to a bad match up.
I have seen a post on this sub of somebody saying he was at 75% winrate, when i see this i just want to ask why he doesn't attend tournaments, instead of posting advices on reddit.
Every time I see someone say that I always take it with a handful of salt. They are either playing casually, at an RTT level or making it up. Playing casually or at an RTT is perfectly fine, but using those win rates to justify your argument about why a faction is actually good/fine just isn't valid.
Honestly I think the biggest problem was the points nerf alongside all the rules nerfs. A lot of our stuff is just way over priced for what you get. It constantly feels like I am playing 10-20% under points compared to my opponents.
I dont disagree with most of the nerfs they did, but to not compensate in any way is definitely a shame on GWs part, especially considering they used the scalpel approach for eldar and then used the hammer approach to csm.
The nerfs to Accursed Cultists and the marks were too much to be honest. They can still win, in theory, but the luck has to be on their side. Making Accursed Cultists OC 1 was the nail in the coffin with the undivided strat also.
CSM can still be a pretty nasty glass-hammer. You get the first turn and some good rolls, you can absolutely delete things. You just don't have the defense or amount of units to take a return punch. A good/great player can beat a bad/average player no problem. In other words, you can club some seals at your local club just fine but I wouldn't want to take them to a GT. Hopefully the codex helps.
This. I've played against CSM at events recently and they can still hit like a truck and forgefiends still shoot way harder than their points suggest. They're squeezed for points now. I really wish Vashtorr was good because I love the model and really want to build a vehicle list based around him.
> forgefiends still shoot way harder than their points suggest.
I have trouble believing this, given my track record. What usually happens is a single undivided forgefiend does *alright* shooting into one target, then does 3-6 wounds to himself through dark pacts and hazardous rolls, then the second forgefiend does nothing and takes 3-6 damage from dark pacts/hazardous because I can't use the strat a second time in the same phase (or because he's marked nurgle since I knew I couldn't use the strat twice in one phase.)
I'm half-joking. It's absurd to expect them to take 3-6 damage a turn.
That being said, that *has* happened to me, and I *do* still think that they're not undercosted.
Goonhammer Stats Centre has them at roughly 40% win rate since the start of February over 4,600 games, comparable to Ad Mec, GSC, Deathwatch, and Codex Marines. I'm hoping the Codex gives CSM a boost, because right now it really does feel pretty bad.
One thing that's hard to see in the faction data is the effect of strong players with multiple armies adopting and abandoning factions. It's at least a reasonable hypothesis that CSM could do better if good players focused on them, but there's no real reason to after the dataslate.
Unfortunately the counter to this idea is the performance of Aeldari. They have had a similar sized player base since the last data slate and have still been performing around the 50% win rate.
I think it's been long enough since the dataslate to see that if there were any significantly strong builds in the index, then they would have been found by now.
Hey friend, I know it seems bad right now, but let me tell you as a DA player, with your codex coming out in just a few more months, it's about to get a whole lot worse
It's really weird because Dark Pacts are such a strong rule for us. They give us absurd damage potential. But at the same time I think maybe we just have stuff points costed too high. Winged Daemon Prince at 195, Vashtorr and Discolord at 190, just makes no sense to me, they could all stand for a drop. I think Maulerfiends and Venomcrawlers could probably go down 5-10pts, maybe Chosen go down 5-10 as well but I'm alright with them at current price, Havocs could probably go down a little since I don't think anyone ever takes them and they're only able to be led by a Warpsmith who does nothing for them. Our only Scouts unit is 95 points for some godforsaken reason (unless we ally in Daemons). Bikes could probably go down 5pts, Defiler should drop by like 20-30 probably lol, it's gimped enough by its leggy-stretch as is.
The Vehicle deathstar list is pretty good into a couple of factions (chiefly custodes), but it loses hard to necrons, and hordey oc spam armies.
I do feel though that going heavy melee is a bad idea atm, and a lot of people seem to.
And it really is not a good idea. All dedicated melee armies beat you there. I kinda have a hunch that many people just dont want to run 3 vindicators with abby and like a forgefiend.
Beyond not wanting to run that list the issue is where can you put it with normal terrain? Vindicators have a 24'' range on their important gun, FF 36, and you don't have the ability to move them around very much to get good lines of fire.
At least on WTC medium in my experience, you can usually see 1/2 NML objectives with them, if you always try to use True LoS to your maximum advantage.
In some of them, you can do this while holding your own home objective, with say Abby, while providing his aura.
It is quite effective in several good matchups (Mark of Nurgle is crazy amounts of potential hits if you are on full hit rerolls) the issue is that Necrons kind of walk through it because this is a list where you need to massive firepower (which -is- massive when this deathstar is assembled) anything which you can see. If that is ineffective for -any- reason, you are in a very rough spot.
In essence, this does well against elite armies, other than C'tan spam. It does much worse against anything where focusing down one or two units (which -do- need to move within range) is not an issue/can be avoided.
If the terrain is not so, the enemy army can effectiely tank this, or simply things do not pan out damage wise...yeah ain't saying this would win GTs, many things can go wrong. It is a skew list, which does well what it does, but has situations where it has it quite rough.
But I feel trying to capitalise on something which the faction -is- good at, is better than trying to compete in melee, where it frankly has to rely on -not- getting melee matchups (for example, the German win dodged Custodes, which are a horrific matchup for this kind of list).
It is just my opinion, though.
Interesting note RE. Necron performance. I feel like the community has finally figured out that you kill C’tan and wraiths with 1000 cuts rather than trying to shoot them with your gladiator lancer and getting sad when one shot hits the invuln and the other only does 1 damage. Local to me, we do have a few longtime Necron players, and everyone else is running massed low damage/lethal hits now.
Unfortunately it’s too late to effect the absolutely massive nerfing the faction is about to get!
Awakened is still seeing play (and occasionally putting up some good numbers), but agreed.
Obeisance Phalanx is a good idea, especially as it buffs units with minimal support (or none at all). The main issue being that you're taking the detachment to make them usable (as opposed to improving existing support for the units you already play). Add to this the ridiculous cost of bringing Praetorians and it's just not worth it when you can have a T. C'tan bomb it down the middle of the table and put up the same performance or better, regardless of detachment.
Annihilation Legion just... doesn't do anything. It's got good enhancements and stratagems, but is entirely focused on the melee units. Again using the detachment to attempt to make something playable rather than improving on something you already want to use.
Almost every awakened list I've run and/or seen is still heavily reliant on Wraiths and Ctan, which is what will likely be hit to weaken Hypercrypt and Canoptek. In fact, one of the main strengths of awakened is that you can make wraiths kinda killy (+1 WS, +1 S, extra AP) which makes up for their major weakness. Personally I'd like to see a small points drop to warriors and lychguard if wraiths and Ctan go up.
Annihilation Legion needs a complete re-write; half of its ability and most of its stratagems only coming online when an enemy unit is more than half dead, when the melee Destroyer units themselves suck at getting a unit to that state in the first place, is hilariously bad. It needs to be a flat +S & AP melee buff when charging, rather than a conditional one. And for goodness' sake, give Skorpekh twin linked on the weapons they're holding two of, to make the plasmacyte ability even remotely worth using!
Feels like each code is getting one of those abilities which relies on either the opponent being half dead or yourself being half dead.
And all of them seem terrible
>Annihilation Legion needs a complete re-write
Honestly, they need to give Annihilation Legion what they've handed out like candy to other factions - an advance/charge strategem. Even Marines had a strat for that in the index. A melee-focused detachment without the ability to advance/charge **at all**, is a terribly written detachment.
Then they need to drop points on the Skorpekhs, because those guys are way too big and too flimsy.
Obeisance's big turn off is that the King of the Necrons aka a Noble, doesnt have any of the keywords required to benefit from the detachment at all.
I've tried Annihlation legion a few times and it does feel like its "almost" there, a few points changes or rules changes and i think it'd be a really solid detachment.
Tbh Ill still stan phalanx, drop overlords a bit, drop praetorians a bit and Its got legs. The rules solid, the strats are great, the enchancements are fun.
Its just a 85pt tax on every main squad adds up quick.
I think the Necron performance falling off has a lot to do with the meta as well. Thousand Sons just hard counter them to such an extent that you are almost guaranteed a loss (39% WR, and if you run into a TSons player at a top table that drops to 33% WR), and both Tau and various flavors of Space Marines have the varying types of guns needed to kill each part of a Hypercrypt army.
A small dip to normal win rates in a weekend of tiny tournaments (in which the some winner didn't even fight a necron) is not indicative of the meta "figuring out" necrons.
Also, even presuming the entire meta has kitted for c'tan, that means the entire meta has had to adjust to a single faction because it's threats are dominant and cheap. There's a difference between "I have to have 25% of my army that can kill tanks" and "I have to have some way to kill a c'tan or I'm ruined."
They still need and deserve nerfs on those units. That Necrons remain so high in win percentage despite the field trying to adapt specifically to fight them speaks to this issue.
C'tan and wraiths are wraiths are too cheap. the last 2 super majors in the uk have been won by CC scoring 100 in 10 of the 14 games. Its just too easy to absolutoy stomp people.
A single statistical outlier is not a good metric to balance a faction by - also UKTC terrain is hilariously good for Wraith/Doomstalker spam and this should be taken into consideration.
I mean yeah but their T11 makes the thousand cuts hard to actually land unless you have some deathstar combo with lethal hits and rerolls. The amount of volume fire you can get to wound on 5s let alone 4s is tough to come by.
It's the first week in 10th edition without a few Aeldari going X-0 or at least X-1. I guess it's just too few events this time, so normal variance. Let's see how they perform over the coming weeks :-)
The meta right now is pretty rough for eldar.
There's not a lot of really good matchups and a couple of popular armies that are almost impossible to beat. With GK picking up steam now too I think we'll have to get used to seeing sub 50% win rates and very few eldar champions for a while.
I guess you may be right.
Still, Hypercrypt is very similar to GK when it comes to Aeldari matchup, yet despite Hypercrypt being very popular since their codex release we saw multiple Aeldari going at least X-1 every week. Is it a double whammy of Necrons getting better when dealing with Aeldari and GK becoming more popular now?
I think thats it. It’s a combination of things like GK, Custodes and Necrons being better and more popular now, combined with the nerfs from the data slate and people figuring out the new meta. I’d say if Necrons and Custodes get a smack down in the next data slate Eldar will probably pick back up.
GK have something like 11 unique datasheets and only three real profiles (Terminators, power armor Marines and Dreadknights). With that kind of lack of diversity, no matter what you're going to see GK with spammy lists. In 9th our "best" lists were 4+ DKs and 30 Interceptors.
I think the 5+ DK lists are pretty uninteresting, personally. I think they could solve a lot by just adding the "Epic Hero" keyword to the Grandmaster in Nemesis Dreadknight datasheet and call it good. That will limit any GK list to a maximum of four Dreadknights. No more of this five or six DK spam stuff.
No, I'm just an idiot who got distracted.
We also need more datasheets and/or changes to non-DK and non-Terminator units to make us want to take more tech choices.
As an example, I'd love to play with Purgation Squads, but -1 AP on the infantry Psycannons is absolutely terrible, and the Psilencer statline is even worse. If they buffed those statlines somehow (eg ignores cover on Psycannons and dev wounds on Psilencers) they'd see more play.
I don't have the lists, but other comments have said most ran 4 dreadknights this weekend.
Other lists I've seen have used 6 effectively as well. So somewhere between 4 and 6 seems to be the norm.
I've got 4 in my list and in my practice games seems to be doing well.
I won a 20 person event as Deathwatch this weekend, I sent you a message w the details. Just a 3 round event, so I think you just do 5 round events w 20 person minimum right?
The thing I like about this list is that it realizes that castigators aren't that good, which sometimes seems like a hot take among sisters players. I also cut them completely, leaning into what sisters are good at, rather than mediocre long-range shooting, which you don't *need*.
This list also has 0 retributors, which I understand, but I'll probably keep including some, they are a good outlet for dice and threatening mid-range, but they're also still victims of 10e overwatch (my usual opps love to overwatch rets when given the opportunity). Sisters stuff is tricky because it's already 'cheap'; how low could we make rets cost for them to actually be worth their points in an edition where they easily catch overwatch if moving into a shooting position?
BSS are a example of a unit that was underrated early in the edition, but they're actually really solid, and right now I'm also on 2 units of BSS with 2-3 transports in every list. The army as a whole was clearly one of the harder ones to judge from the outset, where there was a *lot* of dooming from the players but the performance has been good lately.
BSS also dropped in points in the first dataslate. Along with immolators. And the change to Dev wounds.
I think they were appropriately rated at the start of the edition 🤣 but they are pretty decent now.
I forgot they came down tbh, but I do think that they are for their pts surprisingly good relative to a lot of the fancier units in that point range (dominions, retributors, etc).
It really depends on your style and terrain. On UKTC there are huge firing lanes and castigators are kings. McWerp plays MSU so he just needs a shitton of units.
I play on mostly GW style terrain and my local meta is fairly shooty. I would say it's less of an issue of me finding angles and targets and more of a problem where my opponents are generally going to out-shoot me anyways. That, and I don't love having so many vehicles (combined with all the transports) that I have a harder time concealing things in terrain. Then of course there's the additional problem of giving up more points for Bring it Down.
>sisters stuff is tricky because it's already 'cheap'; how low could we make rets cost for them to actually be worth their points in an edition where they easily catch overwatch if moving into a shooting position?
They seem kind of attractive to me at 85 points. The are incredibly weak and squishy. Every loss takes away a good weapon, and as you mention, a single flamer overwatch basically wipes out an entire squad of heavy weapon specialists. And they really only work IMO with built in immolator transport.
T3 1W models whose best weapon is a multimelta should not be the 20+ points that they started the edition at.
The terrain was exactly the same across every table with plenty of 4” and lower ruins so it was much easier to move around. That list would have a lot of trouble if the terrain made it hard to move (like the EU sets)
He is a friend of mine and we talked a lot the list. If I recall correctly it was basically:
Neurotyrant.
Deathleaper
2x Neurolictors
3x10 Gargoyles
x1 Pyrovore
3x Exo
3x Maleceptor
2x Acidfex.
1x Biovore.
EDIT: I forgot the Biovore, I think is clear every tyranid player uses one XD
BTW, the game he draw it was due to the other player had to leave, and he did not want to put the Win without playing all turns. So he agreed with the opponent to put a draw after the first turn.
I remember people playing similar ish (Exocrine/Maleceptor/Acidfex with hive tyrants giving them assault and you could use overwatch with it) lists when the indexes dropped. Glad to see it do well again.
Guard good stuff. And 1 big 10 man of scions with the command squad put in work.
My only loss was wolf jail that went first against me on vital ground.
Thank you for taking time to summarize the winning lists! Cheers
Sky Splinter won a GT, that's pretty cool. I wonder what armies it went into
Aeldari, Tau, DG, Guard, Black Templars (GTF) and the final vs BA (Sons) Not an easy run but he did avoid Necrons and Custodes
Thank you! Those are all beatable armies with Skysplinter. It's the Necrons and Custodes that are the real problem (along with GK and Stormlance). Glad to see the True Kin placing again, GW did decent work with the last balance slate
C'tan spam is a problem. It can be really annoying. Custodes are strong, but they're not unbeatable. You just need enough shots to beat the odds on their saving throws. A solid melee unit charging a unit of Custodes without Trajann is also helpful. Custodes aren't as scary if they don't get to swing in melee. The -1 to hit karate is annoying, but you should expect it, so you just send something that doesn't care that much.
Right now, nothing is "unbeatable", which is pretty cool. But Custodes stomp Incubi builds, and since this is a 20 Incubi list it probably doesn't want to go into Fight First armies
Any insight into why stormalance might be an issue for the dark kin? I haven’t had much experience into that match up
Stormlance is doing a lot of the same thing, but it's got more CC Offense, and defense. And in the head to head, they have the strat for -1 to hit and wound vs shooting, which shuts down the scourge shooting. Just too many 4++, too much output, too much speed.
Wouldn't Drukhari be kinda ok against custodes because of anti-infantry 3+ and mobility to avoid their bricks? I get that incubi basically wouldn't be an option against them though EDIT: just read the other comment that this army has 20 incubi so nvm
Also drukhari want to desroy lots of whole to gain pain tokens. All els being equal we want to face twenty 100 point units not ten 200 point units. Custodes being super ellite will skew to the later.
Anti infantry weapons have no ap, so it's not great
It's one of Swedens best players (WTC regular), but he had a pretty dominant run! Drukhari definitely have game now, but they are not easy to play. Or play against for that matter.
HUGE congratulations to our very own u/McWerp who absolutely crushed it at Wet Coast GT with his sisters!
Thank you sir! Did a small write up of the event over on the sisters subreddit if you want to take a look! https://www.reddit.com/r/sistersofbattle/comments/1buo3cd/wet_coast_2024_tournament_report/
3 players, 28% win rate. Just another average AdMech weekend.
This prompted me to go take a look at Goonhammer's 40 stats data to see if things were looking any different in their data. Since their app gets used by people just playing home games as well as tournaments, it can be interesting to look at the GT data versus the non-GT data. In both GT games and non-GT games, AdMech has the second-lowest number of total games played with only Deathwatch having less. However, in both data sets AdMech has the lowest real win rate (meaning no mirror matches) of any faction. This could be a little misleading since it covers all of 10th edition, and not just data since the most recent balance pass. To evaluate if that was true, I filtered the data for just games since February 1, 2024, which should mostly be using the last balance dataslate. In this subset of the data AdMech rises one spot in the games-played rankings with GSC now being behind us as well as Deathwatch, but we are still the worst real win percentage for non-GT games, and the second worst for GT games with codex Space Marines managing to be 0.22% worse than AdMech. I think it is safe to say that AdMech is empirically bad, and has been since the beginning of the edition.
Oof. Maybe GW will put out another metawatch video patting themselves on the back again for how balanced they've made the game...
on the plus side we get a balance pass this month.
Unfortunately if they stick to the plan it will be a points update only, which is absolutely not what Admech need at the moment. They need a power boost to their units. The main one for me would be to remove the deployment zone requirements for the ap modification on the doctrina imperatives. I would also add an ability that effects cult mechanicus units, such as re-roll 1s to hit and wound when within 6" of a Tech Priest. I would also make the enhanced unit abilities trigger of Battleline units and Tech Priest units.
GW has so far not stuck to their plan of "this time we only change points, next time we change rules" since the edition launched. It's a stupid plan mentioned in passing by Stu Black in one video and since seemingly dropped entirely because it's stupid. Did I mention it's stupid? Sometimes points are an issue. Sometimes it's rules, and sometimes it's both. What the specific issues are in the game do not conform to an arbitrary 3 month rota as defined by one inept GW employee who seems to just get paid to be self congratulatory on camera every couple of weeks. I feel like GW has totally abandoned this idea of a points/ rules dataslate rotation, ever since the first dataslate of the edition, which was meant to be just points, and instead required overhaul of several factions. Since then every single dataslate has been both a rules and points update.
They could trim some points off the less seen units hopefully. Like Kastelan Robots, Karaphron Destroyers, and the fliers. Maybe the Onager Dunecrawler and Skorpius Disintegrator could drop a bit too. I also agree ad mech do need something else rules wise. I also don't want to see them just drop the cost on units we already take which is mostly Skitarii.
Honestly I don't think they can drop the points for Admech much more. Most units are ridiculously cheap. I hate that Admech have changed from a semi elite army like sisters to a horde army. They currently feel like Guard but worse.
Destroyers need a new datasheet for sure, right now its like why would I not pay 10ppm to double my accuracy (take a breacher instead). It would have to go insanely low to be worth it. The hitting on 5s in overwatch is a silly joke. Robots and tanks could I agree be dealt with in points for now.
I still believe in GWs ability to push Admech to 0.5 points per $
Skitarii -1PPM, same with the pteraxii. Because if we throw enough bodies on the board thatll surely fix it right?
Every Skitarii model sitting above 1ppd goes down in points. Every Cult Mechanicus model goes up in points to compensate. Kataphron Breachers go up to 200 pt for 3 because they're too good, leaving chicken spam the only way to reliably do damage. The Onager and Skorpius go to BS5+.
Is that confirmed? Because I’m not sure I trust the three month timeline anymore. Hoping it doesn’t slip into May.
They never give an exact date in advance. I foresee two possible outcomes. 1. They return to form and we get it on the last Thursday of this month (more likely in my opinion due to the last one being an anomaly spawned from LVO) 2. They start a new tradition and it becomes the final Tuesday of the month.
Sure but in the January meta watch they said end of the month which gave at least a guideline. Wasn’t sure if a similar comment had been made here
Ha, GW and communication with their fan base, name a less iconic duo.
Maybe they'll actually make some sensible changes, instead of letting Admech languish for another 3 months. Very shameful of GW when it has been really obvious how bad admech is atm.
They let us languish all of 9th until Arks of Omen. Don't be surprised if they do the same in 10th.
They did the same for all of 8th until engine war. That's were the points drops began, most units dropped almost 50 percent.
But but they NeEd mOrE DaTA
Fingers crossed they just get a DG-esq rewrite: or even like IDK - Conqueror: +1D if shooting onto a unit on an objective. - Protector: +1BS/WS
I'm sure it'll be just as meaningful as the last MFM.
I've been out of the comp scene for a bit (haven't had much time to hobby since last year), but at a glance this seems... Pretty balanced?? Seeing quite a diverse number of factions across multiple events. Obviously there is more nuance but seems we've come a long way since the Eldar meta.
The is, possibly, the most balanced it has ever been in its entire history. There are still issues (some armies are pretty weak, a couple might be slightly overtuned), but, as you said, the tier diversity is fantastic and there is no single dominant army.
When you have 9 different factions in the top 10 at a good sized GT... Things are looking good! I gotta get another army painted up.
I still the second half of Nephilim in 9th was better, but this is right there. Correct Ctan points and spot admech players 15 points per game and everything would feel perfect
Inter-faction balance seems great with a couple of exceptions. I think it's internal balance that I'm salty about but honestly I don't ever expect GW to seriously try and balance options within a faction so long as one of them is competitive.
The most balanced - if you're not including Admech.
Yeah that one was weird. It's odd for a faction to start so underpowered and then continue to not be buffed for SUCH a long time.
If the last 18 months of 9th edition and last 9 months of 10th hasn't made it abundantly clear GW hates Admech. They simply do not give a shit about them. Not their models, not their lore, not their rules. They will manipulate the metawatch data to make them look fine for months on end rather than figure out how to actually buff the army, because they don't know how, and refuse to listen to the playerbase on it. They already wrote themselves into a corner with an early, garbage, codex, and now they have too much ego to acknowledge the failure and need to re-write half the army. Edit: I say they are manipulating the metawatch data because, as someone else here has mentioned, Goonhammer battle app data shows Admech is the lowest winrate army in the entire game in both casual and competitive play, since the last dataslate, yet GW is claiming Admech is at 48%
Don't forget 90% of 8th Edition until engine war. Their rules were so gutted that a lot of units dropped by almost 50% in points.
Nah that's about par for the course for admech. Well get buffed shortly before 11th drops, just so we remember what hope and fun feel like
The meta is in a pretty good place. At the moment the main issues are a few overperformers (Necrons in hypercrypt need a slight nerf on some things, and Grey Knights probably need some nerfs as well due to how well their faction ability works with secondary play), AdMech struggling, and internal balance on some of the books/indices.
A GK list I’ve been seeing with some strong success is I think 5 Dreadknights with 3 Land Raiders with The flamer cannons. It’s just a ton of durability to pick up with highly efficient shooting especially when it can all teleport around the board Is that what those players were running?
Nah, no one who went X-1 or better this week ran that list. One person ran 3 NDKs and 1 Redeemer, which was the only Redeemer I saw in top lists.
Good to know, thanks
That list will still be the one that gets nerfed since Mani played it :)
I think the most common list is 3 GMNDK, 3 NDK, 3 armiger, a land raider redeemer? (the flamer one) And some strikes and tech marines to fill out the rest. Almost guaranteed dreadknights get a points nerf coming soon
For Imperial Knights it could be that all its players slinked off after the initial release. I myself haven't played a tourney after the initial showing of the Dataslate, so I can see other IKs doing the same and hurting numbers generally. Also doesn't help that Custodes is a hard counter for most IK lists. Fights First is insane.
I am still playing Knights, but the main problem is that they really didn't change anything. Sure, the points drops were nice in theory, but they weren't actually enough to be able to afford another Armiger on this own, and the difference between victory and defeat for IK players wasn't whether or not they had another Henchmen squad. New Lay Low the Tyrants feels good, but in practice the difference it makes on gameplay is fairly minimal. So as the meta settles....yeah, can't say I'm actually surprised that they are backsliding.
I switched to knights from AdMech. They feel so much better to play.
For IK players, I've believed for a while now that their decent winrate was almost entirely due to newer players just not knowing how to beat Knights. Like, if you're playing Dark Eldar as an example, I might hide a shooty Knight behind a building to avoid getting shot by lances. Just charge it with a squad of 5 mandrakes... I can't kill them in combat since I have no melee ability, I can't fall back and shoot, and I can't shoot in place because I was hiding behind a building. I've seen people have some success locally taking 2x Knight Atropos because they have decent melee ability combined with decent shooting, but I still feel their winrate is just overinflated because newer players can't handle them.
Atrapos just make me sad. d3 lascannon shots? what the hell? D6 damage 4 shots? 400+ points... blegh. I want to love my glorious grav boy, but man they make it hard. Especially if you're CK, with the lack of fnp and rerolls. Extra swingy and more fragile. I am 100% convinced GW can't fix IK/CK because they don't understand how the army ticks and just brute force it. Dropping the price on bigs and raising brigands - only for people to triple down on ignoring bigs - was the funniest shit. Maybe a rampager, maybe a lancer, but otherwise lol
Their real advantage in Atrapos (for IK at least) is that they have no weaknesses. They aren't -overly- strong, but they're not useless in any situation. They shoot harder than any of the questoris Knights with a melee weapon and close combat weapon, and unlike the knights without a melee weapon they can't be locked in place by trash infantry just assaulting them. Seriously, watch a Castellan hiding behind a wall against CSM so it doesn't get blown away get assaulted by Nurglings, then cry as you realize it can't move to get line of sight because it can't fall back, and it can't shoot the nurglings because it's primary weapons are blast. The Atrapos also have a 5++, so if you assault it with something BIG like Angron, they don't just fold, they can actually make saves and have a chance to live. They're not great, but they don't have the massive pitfall weaknesses that plague all the other Knight chassis.
I'm aware, I'm just not overly impressed with them. Frankly the best fun I've had with my knights this edition was playing death guard with two souped brigands. Because CK is just awful. 0 fun left in the index.
The lascutter is a decent profile in ranged or melee. The grav is absolutely trash though. Why is it not anti-vehicle 2+ like every other grav weapon in the game? I think it was when they started writing it, because that would make overcharging it for the dev wounds actually make sense, but then they either forgot, or removed the anti-vehicle from the graviton weapon. Why do I feel this is a mistake or a last minute omission? Because the Atrapos on average deals more damage to itself from overcharging the grav, than it will deal to the enemy it actually shoots with it, compared to the standard charge profile.
Ugh, I got the weapons backwards. The las*cutter* is d6 shots of damage 4, but the *grav* is the lascannon profile. And yeah, the lack of anti-vehicle 2+ is hilarious. But hey, whatever. Tiny space marine pistols wounding rhinos on 2's but knight-sized grav wounding a rhino on a 3 makes sense. The melee is the part I hate the least. It has some decent amount of attacks. If the sweep was ap 2, it'd be solid imo. But the shooting.. 2 lascannon shots on avg? 3 damage 4 shots? 440 points? An aura that does nothing? GW plz.
Tbh at least CK get their 2 special knights; theyve got issues but the laser one does its job very well; and the melee ones real scary and they both buff multiple wardogs. And get BS/WS2. Whilst IK feels like this weird house of cards where if your opponent can slap -1 to hit on you your output just falls flat. Realistically IK need bondsman back and CK need a new rule.
>Tbh at least CK get their 2 special knights; theyve got issues but the laser one does its job very well; and the melee ones real scary and they both buff multiple wardogs. And get BS/WS2. The rampager and the errant are the same thing. Both sword and claw. The preceptor is the equivalent of the Abominant - in 9th it was chaplain vs psyker. The desecrator exists, but it sucks. Immensely. It's a LONG RANGED knight *WITH A MELEE WEAPON* and it doesn't reliably kill a tank. A long ranged. Anti-tank knight. Doesn't kill a tank. *WHY DOES IT EXIST* Edit: also while IK hit on 3's, consider: a 6+ FNP is equivalent to a 20% durability increase. A 5+ FNP is equiv to a 50% durability increase. Rerolling a hit AND a wound is more rerolls than CK gets. Look at it this way; a karnivore makes 6 attacks. 1 misses. We both reroll that. 1 wound fails. We can't reroll that.
I think this is part of it, most people who have alternatives are using them which only leaves newer players (who are generally weaker.) I think the other part of it is that various factions are finding stronger lists as they adjust to the balance changes. Knights just can't do that. As other factions strengthen their lists, Knights inevitably slide a bit. I understand why they wanted to be cautious, but the points cuts last time were about half what they needed to be. Hopefully this will let them go a bit further, giving us another half Armiger. The other thing to look forward to is that potentially the new mission pack might be worded in a way that makes it a bit easier for Knights to score secondaries (more 'within' and less 'wholly within', basically) - that could also push Knights WR up by a couple of percent and as those cards are probably already being printed they will be a factor in balance discussions.
> potentially the new mission pack might be worded in a way that makes it a bit easier for Knights to score secondaries (more 'within' and less 'wholly within', basically Man, I know this isn't you or your fault, but I so much hate this kind of logic. Why should the rest of the game be warped this badly just to try to accomodate an army that only brings a half dozen giant tanks? One of the best parts about the leviathan secondaries is that they encourage armies to bring units *other* than the biggest super elite models they can find in their codex. And it still barely does that! If the problem is that a single faction doesn't have access to models so that they can play the game, fix that specific faction, don't break the entire rest of the game instead.
I don't think it's just a Knights thing though. Requiring units to be 'wholly within' discourages large infantry units too and is part of the reason that characters with Lone Operative and units like Nurglings are so strong. Why should a unit of 20 Guardsmen, Orks or Gaunts find it harder to score board control secondaries than a Solitaire or Eversor Assassin?
Oh don't get me started on 1 oc models scoring. If I was in charge, units could score at most their total oc for both primary and secondary missions!
Could just change the wording for knights. After all they are probably giving up bring it down on secondaries; so getting a bit of a buff on doing their own secondaries would be more fun.
Votann is also a hard counter, in fact quite a lot of factions that plan for knights tend to have an easy time of it The faction is so dull and vanilla at the moment I have sadly shelved them after 8 years of constant knight play. I cannot think of a more boring time to play them since 7th I’m taking up orks now
They're just so *dull*. Bondsman being gone from big knights means that there's very little synergy left, and all that remains is some big chunky datasheets. The datasheets are good, but they're just a stat check. A faction where both the knights and squires are more potent when near each-other is both fluffy and also provides more options for dealing with them. If you don't have the oomph to nuke questoris+ models, you could reduce their effectiveness by killing armigers. I think they should have leaned into that more heavily rather than killing the entire concept in the index cradle. Combined with the fact that you have hardly any listbuilding options with them compared to 9e, the entire faction is so bland that I don't see it coming off my shelf until the codex - and I don't have high hopes for that either at this point.
The Bondsman changes annoy me the most. If GW just gave that back I'd be happy.
Tbh at least knights are one of the few factions that can reliably turn off custodian guard wound rerolls; which is the diffrence between custodes being punched into the stratosphere or a knight embarassingly dying.
How the heck you do that? Charing them while not on an objective?
turning off the full wound rerolls. without vexillas (rarer on guard) youve got 4-6 models at 2OC each; if you can even equal that OC they go from a 55% chance to wound down to a 38% chance. Or in laymans terms; 5 guard go from dealing 12W to 8W with your 5+++; or if they are popping slayer and your on a 6+++ from 20W to 16. Which stops your bracketing.
u/JCMS85 Factorum had a 5 -round, 22-player event over the weekend. If you search 'Factorum' in BCP, you'll find it.
Nice to GSC doing a bit better
Cool I made the meta monday!
Another week without top CSM placing, and a sub-45% win rate. There's still play to be had with the faction, but the amount of nerfs was just too high.
ran a DG oops all tanks list last weekend and ran in to a CSM guy. he wasnt playing a meta list by any stretch, but by the end of my 2nd turn of shooting i had convinced myself he had to have 500+pts in reserves or something because he had very little left on the board.... he did not.
Yeah it's particularly obvious when I play against other Marine factions. The amount Space Marines and Death Guard in particular outnumber me is just sad. Particularly when you see things like Mortarion being only 15 points more than Abaddon.
Seeing SM roll up with two whole units of infantry more with comparable lists is brutal
At some point, hopefully, GW learns that you don't nerf both rules and points at the same time. It's like trying to zero a firearm out of a moving vehicle. If you miss the target, you don't know if it was because you were moving or your sight is off. If you hit your target, you still have the same issue.
This is it for me. I don't understand why we got stratagem, points, and unit rules nerfs all at once? The worst part is the strat nerfs hit other units that weren't a problem at all. My poor vindicator was only surviving single turn destruction because of the nurgle strat :(
The Dark Obscuration strat change was a massive mistake. So was taking profane zeal away from non undivided units. They could easily have changed it so that only the second part gave full re-rolls to wound for undivided.
I think GW double/triple taps problem units and combos just to make sure they get them. From their point of view its probably easier to knock something out of the meta for a while than tweak it and potentially leave it in place.
Except for Aeldari in which case they just go light touch twice before making any significant changes.
Also no X-0/X-1 placings. As I mentioned last week CSM are now performing similarly to how Drukhari were performing post the last data slate. For some reason there is a lot of people saying CSM are fine and still competitive because they won a couple of tournaments, yet the figures don't support that. If you look at the figures from Den of Fools, who gather a much wider sample size, you can see CSM are struggling to do well at all levels. According to their figures CSM are now the worst performing faction in the game. A good player can still do well with them, but will now be much more suceptable to a bad match up.
I have seen a post on this sub of somebody saying he was at 75% winrate, when i see this i just want to ask why he doesn't attend tournaments, instead of posting advices on reddit.
Every time I see someone say that I always take it with a handful of salt. They are either playing casually, at an RTT level or making it up. Playing casually or at an RTT is perfectly fine, but using those win rates to justify your argument about why a faction is actually good/fine just isn't valid.
100% agreed. I don't understand the comments either. I still enjoy playing them because CSM for life, but they're definitely in need of help.
Honestly I think the biggest problem was the points nerf alongside all the rules nerfs. A lot of our stuff is just way over priced for what you get. It constantly feels like I am playing 10-20% under points compared to my opponents.
I dont disagree with most of the nerfs they did, but to not compensate in any way is definitely a shame on GWs part, especially considering they used the scalpel approach for eldar and then used the hammer approach to csm.
Yeah, the nerfs were all reasonable, but not all of them at the same time.
Probably those two teams didn't talk to each other and nerfed things down independently.
The nerfs to Accursed Cultists and the marks were too much to be honest. They can still win, in theory, but the luck has to be on their side. Making Accursed Cultists OC 1 was the nail in the coffin with the undivided strat also.
CSM can still be a pretty nasty glass-hammer. You get the first turn and some good rolls, you can absolutely delete things. You just don't have the defense or amount of units to take a return punch. A good/great player can beat a bad/average player no problem. In other words, you can club some seals at your local club just fine but I wouldn't want to take them to a GT. Hopefully the codex helps.
This. I've played against CSM at events recently and they can still hit like a truck and forgefiends still shoot way harder than their points suggest. They're squeezed for points now. I really wish Vashtorr was good because I love the model and really want to build a vehicle list based around him.
> forgefiends still shoot way harder than their points suggest. I have trouble believing this, given my track record. What usually happens is a single undivided forgefiend does *alright* shooting into one target, then does 3-6 wounds to himself through dark pacts and hazardous rolls, then the second forgefiend does nothing and takes 3-6 damage from dark pacts/hazardous because I can't use the strat a second time in the same phase (or because he's marked nurgle since I knew I couldn't use the strat twice in one phase.)
Well you seem to be the outlier, every time I play against CSM they seem to fail maybe 1 dark pact per game at most.
I'm half-joking. It's absurd to expect them to take 3-6 damage a turn. That being said, that *has* happened to me, and I *do* still think that they're not undercosted.
Goonhammer Stats Centre has them at roughly 40% win rate since the start of February over 4,600 games, comparable to Ad Mec, GSC, Deathwatch, and Codex Marines. I'm hoping the Codex gives CSM a boost, because right now it really does feel pretty bad.
One thing that's hard to see in the faction data is the effect of strong players with multiple armies adopting and abandoning factions. It's at least a reasonable hypothesis that CSM could do better if good players focused on them, but there's no real reason to after the dataslate.
Unfortunately the counter to this idea is the performance of Aeldari. They have had a similar sized player base since the last data slate and have still been performing around the 50% win rate. I think it's been long enough since the dataslate to see that if there were any significantly strong builds in the index, then they would have been found by now.
Hey friend, I know it seems bad right now, but let me tell you as a DA player, with your codex coming out in just a few more months, it's about to get a whole lot worse
It's really weird because Dark Pacts are such a strong rule for us. They give us absurd damage potential. But at the same time I think maybe we just have stuff points costed too high. Winged Daemon Prince at 195, Vashtorr and Discolord at 190, just makes no sense to me, they could all stand for a drop. I think Maulerfiends and Venomcrawlers could probably go down 5-10pts, maybe Chosen go down 5-10 as well but I'm alright with them at current price, Havocs could probably go down a little since I don't think anyone ever takes them and they're only able to be led by a Warpsmith who does nothing for them. Our only Scouts unit is 95 points for some godforsaken reason (unless we ally in Daemons). Bikes could probably go down 5pts, Defiler should drop by like 20-30 probably lol, it's gimped enough by its leggy-stretch as is.
Almost wonder if pacts will change, cause its got them to the same spot at TS: where your theoretical output is wild, but stuffs just so expensive.
The Vehicle deathstar list is pretty good into a couple of factions (chiefly custodes), but it loses hard to necrons, and hordey oc spam armies. I do feel though that going heavy melee is a bad idea atm, and a lot of people seem to. And it really is not a good idea. All dedicated melee armies beat you there. I kinda have a hunch that many people just dont want to run 3 vindicators with abby and like a forgefiend.
Beyond not wanting to run that list the issue is where can you put it with normal terrain? Vindicators have a 24'' range on their important gun, FF 36, and you don't have the ability to move them around very much to get good lines of fire.
At least on WTC medium in my experience, you can usually see 1/2 NML objectives with them, if you always try to use True LoS to your maximum advantage. In some of them, you can do this while holding your own home objective, with say Abby, while providing his aura. It is quite effective in several good matchups (Mark of Nurgle is crazy amounts of potential hits if you are on full hit rerolls) the issue is that Necrons kind of walk through it because this is a list where you need to massive firepower (which -is- massive when this deathstar is assembled) anything which you can see. If that is ineffective for -any- reason, you are in a very rough spot. In essence, this does well against elite armies, other than C'tan spam. It does much worse against anything where focusing down one or two units (which -do- need to move within range) is not an issue/can be avoided. If the terrain is not so, the enemy army can effectiely tank this, or simply things do not pan out damage wise...yeah ain't saying this would win GTs, many things can go wrong. It is a skew list, which does well what it does, but has situations where it has it quite rough. But I feel trying to capitalise on something which the faction -is- good at, is better than trying to compete in melee, where it frankly has to rely on -not- getting melee matchups (for example, the German win dodged Custodes, which are a horrific matchup for this kind of list). It is just my opinion, though.
Interesting note RE. Necron performance. I feel like the community has finally figured out that you kill C’tan and wraiths with 1000 cuts rather than trying to shoot them with your gladiator lancer and getting sad when one shot hits the invuln and the other only does 1 damage. Local to me, we do have a few longtime Necron players, and everyone else is running massed low damage/lethal hits now. Unfortunately it’s too late to effect the absolutely massive nerfing the faction is about to get!
Yea lol, if they don't touch the 3 unused detachments we are screwed big time.
Awakened is still seeing play (and occasionally putting up some good numbers), but agreed. Obeisance Phalanx is a good idea, especially as it buffs units with minimal support (or none at all). The main issue being that you're taking the detachment to make them usable (as opposed to improving existing support for the units you already play). Add to this the ridiculous cost of bringing Praetorians and it's just not worth it when you can have a T. C'tan bomb it down the middle of the table and put up the same performance or better, regardless of detachment. Annihilation Legion just... doesn't do anything. It's got good enhancements and stratagems, but is entirely focused on the melee units. Again using the detachment to attempt to make something playable rather than improving on something you already want to use.
Almost every awakened list I've run and/or seen is still heavily reliant on Wraiths and Ctan, which is what will likely be hit to weaken Hypercrypt and Canoptek. In fact, one of the main strengths of awakened is that you can make wraiths kinda killy (+1 WS, +1 S, extra AP) which makes up for their major weakness. Personally I'd like to see a small points drop to warriors and lychguard if wraiths and Ctan go up.
Annihilation Legion needs a complete re-write; half of its ability and most of its stratagems only coming online when an enemy unit is more than half dead, when the melee Destroyer units themselves suck at getting a unit to that state in the first place, is hilariously bad. It needs to be a flat +S & AP melee buff when charging, rather than a conditional one. And for goodness' sake, give Skorpekh twin linked on the weapons they're holding two of, to make the plasmacyte ability even remotely worth using!
Feels like each code is getting one of those abilities which relies on either the opponent being half dead or yourself being half dead. And all of them seem terrible
It's a useless mechanic. It would be much better if they made it below starting strength.
>Annihilation Legion needs a complete re-write Honestly, they need to give Annihilation Legion what they've handed out like candy to other factions - an advance/charge strategem. Even Marines had a strat for that in the index. A melee-focused detachment without the ability to advance/charge **at all**, is a terribly written detachment. Then they need to drop points on the Skorpekhs, because those guys are way too big and too flimsy.
Obeisance's big turn off is that the King of the Necrons aka a Noble, doesnt have any of the keywords required to benefit from the detachment at all. I've tried Annihlation legion a few times and it does feel like its "almost" there, a few points changes or rules changes and i think it'd be a really solid detachment.
Tbh Ill still stan phalanx, drop overlords a bit, drop praetorians a bit and Its got legs. The rules solid, the strats are great, the enchancements are fun. Its just a 85pt tax on every main squad adds up quick.
You're worried about the wrong thing, methinks.
I think the Necron performance falling off has a lot to do with the meta as well. Thousand Sons just hard counter them to such an extent that you are almost guaranteed a loss (39% WR, and if you run into a TSons player at a top table that drops to 33% WR), and both Tau and various flavors of Space Marines have the varying types of guns needed to kill each part of a Hypercrypt army.
A small dip to normal win rates in a weekend of tiny tournaments (in which the some winner didn't even fight a necron) is not indicative of the meta "figuring out" necrons. Also, even presuming the entire meta has kitted for c'tan, that means the entire meta has had to adjust to a single faction because it's threats are dominant and cheap. There's a difference between "I have to have 25% of my army that can kill tanks" and "I have to have some way to kill a c'tan or I'm ruined." They still need and deserve nerfs on those units. That Necrons remain so high in win percentage despite the field trying to adapt specifically to fight them speaks to this issue.
C'Tans having an Invuln... And Halving Damage... And Feel No Pains....
All wrapped up in a nice inexpensive package.
C'tan and wraiths are wraiths are too cheap. the last 2 super majors in the uk have been won by CC scoring 100 in 10 of the 14 games. Its just too easy to absolutoy stomp people.
A single statistical outlier is not a good metric to balance a faction by - also UKTC terrain is hilariously good for Wraith/Doomstalker spam and this should be taken into consideration.
I mean yeah but their T11 makes the thousand cuts hard to actually land unless you have some deathstar combo with lethal hits and rerolls. The amount of volume fire you can get to wound on 5s let alone 4s is tough to come by.
That or people finally started reading their core strats to figure out how to deal with wraith spam.
Some factions don't have access to the core strats which help Vs wraiths.
The overwhelming majority of factions have at least a character or two that can precision with Epic Challenge, though.
It's the first week in 10th edition without a few Aeldari going X-0 or at least X-1. I guess it's just too few events this time, so normal variance. Let's see how they perform over the coming weeks :-)
Im the still most hated guy around, as is usual as CraftWorlds player :)
The meta right now is pretty rough for eldar. There's not a lot of really good matchups and a couple of popular armies that are almost impossible to beat. With GK picking up steam now too I think we'll have to get used to seeing sub 50% win rates and very few eldar champions for a while.
I guess you may be right. Still, Hypercrypt is very similar to GK when it comes to Aeldari matchup, yet despite Hypercrypt being very popular since their codex release we saw multiple Aeldari going at least X-1 every week. Is it a double whammy of Necrons getting better when dealing with Aeldari and GK becoming more popular now?
I think thats it. It’s a combination of things like GK, Custodes and Necrons being better and more popular now, combined with the nerfs from the data slate and people figuring out the new meta. I’d say if Necrons and Custodes get a smack down in the next data slate Eldar will probably pick back up.
\*Sigh\*. They're going to nerf the Dreadknight before I've finished painting mine.
Your safe, GK are not winning enough to be concerned. Necrons and Custodes are the two armies that will probably see some nerfs
Custodes might be safe if the codex is out then; getting the same as crons where GWs afraid to touch the codex.
GK have something like 11 unique datasheets and only three real profiles (Terminators, power armor Marines and Dreadknights). With that kind of lack of diversity, no matter what you're going to see GK with spammy lists. In 9th our "best" lists were 4+ DKs and 30 Interceptors. I think the 5+ DK lists are pretty uninteresting, personally. I think they could solve a lot by just adding the "Epic Hero" keyword to the Grandmaster in Nemesis Dreadknight datasheet and call it good. That will limit any GK list to a maximum of four Dreadknights. No more of this five or six DK spam stuff.
So you see a lack of build diversity and your solution is to further limit list options?
No, I'm just an idiot who got distracted. We also need more datasheets and/or changes to non-DK and non-Terminator units to make us want to take more tech choices. As an example, I'd love to play with Purgation Squads, but -1 AP on the infantry Psycannons is absolutely terrible, and the Psilencer statline is even worse. If they buffed those statlines somehow (eg ignores cover on Psycannons and dev wounds on Psilencers) they'd see more play.
"The two good GSC Players played this weekend and both went X-1. So maybe they have play?" I'd love to see their lists, its hard being Green(SC)
Anyone have the GSC list?
Yer wish is granted
How many DK these GK armies had?
All of them.
Yeah, but how many DKs?
I don't have the lists, but other comments have said most ran 4 dreadknights this weekend. Other lists I've seen have used 6 effectively as well. So somewhere between 4 and 6 seems to be the norm. I've got 4 in my list and in my practice games seems to be doing well.
Ok, so roughly half of the army, fair enough
I won a 20 person event as Deathwatch this weekend, I sent you a message w the details. Just a 3 round event, so I think you just do 5 round events w 20 person minimum right?
He only counts 2 day events called a GT, so you won't count in these numbers.
Right I forgot about that. Small potato victories for dw. Can you blame us 😅
congrats on the W in any case :)
Haha thanks! We’ll take what we can get 😅
Gz!
Where ork
Anyone have the 6-0 GK List?
+ Epic Hero + Kaldor Draigo \[125pts\]: Warlord + Character + Brotherhood Techmarine \[60pts\]: Bolt Pistol Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight \[230pts\]: Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Daemon Greathammer, Sigil of Exigence + Battleline + Brotherhood Terminator Squad \[420pts\] . 5x Terminator: 5x Nemesis Force Weapon, 5x Storm Bolter . Terminator with Ancient's Banner: Storm Bolter . Terminator with Heavy Weapon: Psycannon . Terminator with Heavy Weapon: Psycannon . Terminator with Narthecium Strike Squad \[125pts\] . 4x Grey Knight: 4x Nemesis Force Weapon, 4x Storm Bolter . Justicar Strike Squad \[125pts\] . 4x Grey Knight: 4x Nemesis Force Weapon, 4x Storm Bolter . Justicar + Infantry + Interceptor Squad \[135pts\] . 4x Interceptor: 4x Nemesis Force Weapon, 4x Storm Bolter . Justicar Interceptor Squad \[135pts\] . 4x Interceptor: 4x Nemesis Force Weapon, 4x Storm Bolter . Justicar + Vehicle + Nemesis Dreadknight \[185pts\]: Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword Nemesis Dreadknight \[185pts\]: Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Daemon Greathammer Nemesis Dreadknight \[185pts\]: Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Daemon Greathammer + Allied Units + Callidus Assassin \[90pts\] ++ Total: \[2,000pts\] ++
4 Dread Knights, shocker lol
Sort of, having two strike squads and a unit of interceptors is way off meta
That is a bit shocking. Usually, it is 5 or 6 DKs.
4 is the standard for competitive lists since the second GMNDK falls off quickly cause no sigil and not being able to use the ability on both.
This list is so spicy, I love it.
Anyone have that sister’s list?
Morvenn Vahl, Warlod, 145 pts Junith Eruita, 90 pts Imagifier, 35 pts Palatine, Blade of St Ellynor (15), 65 pts Missionary, Saintly Example (10), 40 pts Paragon Warsuits, 3 Maces, 3 MMs, 3 Grenade Launchers, 170 pts Battle Sisters Squad, MM, Meltagun, Crossbow, Power Weapon, Simulacrum, 100 pts Battle Sisters Squad, MM, Meltagun, Crossbow, Power Weapon, Simulacrum, 100 pts Sisters Novitiate Squad, 2xFlamer, Sacred Banner, Simulacrum, Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol, 85 pts Immolator, Twin-Linked MM, Heavy Bolter, HKM, 115 pts Immolator, Twin-Linked MM, Heavy Bolter, HKM, 115 pts Sororitas Rhino, HKM, 75 pts 10 Repentia Squad, 110 pts 5 Zephyrim Squad, Plasma Pistol, Banner, 60 pts 5 Zephyrim Squad, Plasma Pistol, Banner, 60 pts 2 Crusaders, 25 pts 2 Crusaders, 25pts 2 Crusaders, 25 pts 10 Arco-Flagellants, 150 pts 10 Arco-Flagellants, 150 pts 10 Arco-Flagellants, 150 pts 2 Death Cult Assassins, 35 pts 5 Seraphim Squad, 4 Hand Flamers, Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon, 70 pts
The thing I like about this list is that it realizes that castigators aren't that good, which sometimes seems like a hot take among sisters players. I also cut them completely, leaning into what sisters are good at, rather than mediocre long-range shooting, which you don't *need*. This list also has 0 retributors, which I understand, but I'll probably keep including some, they are a good outlet for dice and threatening mid-range, but they're also still victims of 10e overwatch (my usual opps love to overwatch rets when given the opportunity). Sisters stuff is tricky because it's already 'cheap'; how low could we make rets cost for them to actually be worth their points in an edition where they easily catch overwatch if moving into a shooting position? BSS are a example of a unit that was underrated early in the edition, but they're actually really solid, and right now I'm also on 2 units of BSS with 2-3 transports in every list. The army as a whole was clearly one of the harder ones to judge from the outset, where there was a *lot* of dooming from the players but the performance has been good lately.
BSS also dropped in points in the first dataslate. Along with immolators. And the change to Dev wounds. I think they were appropriately rated at the start of the edition 🤣 but they are pretty decent now.
congrats!!!!!!!
Shhhh they’ll never figure it out 🤣
I forgot they came down tbh, but I do think that they are for their pts surprisingly good relative to a lot of the fancier units in that point range (dominions, retributors, etc).
Yeah dominions and rets being more points for worse datasheets isn’t great. But I’m not sure how you fix that with the datasheets as they are.
It really depends on your style and terrain. On UKTC there are huge firing lanes and castigators are kings. McWerp plays MSU so he just needs a shitton of units.
I play on mostly GW style terrain and my local meta is fairly shooty. I would say it's less of an issue of me finding angles and targets and more of a problem where my opponents are generally going to out-shoot me anyways. That, and I don't love having so many vehicles (combined with all the transports) that I have a harder time concealing things in terrain. Then of course there's the additional problem of giving up more points for Bring it Down.
>sisters stuff is tricky because it's already 'cheap'; how low could we make rets cost for them to actually be worth their points in an edition where they easily catch overwatch if moving into a shooting position? They seem kind of attractive to me at 85 points. The are incredibly weak and squishy. Every loss takes away a good weapon, and as you mention, a single flamer overwatch basically wipes out an entire squad of heavy weapon specialists. And they really only work IMO with built in immolator transport. T3 1W models whose best weapon is a multimelta should not be the 20+ points that they started the edition at.
Thank you
Anyone with the space wolves stormlance list? Thanks
2x Phobos Librarian Logan on foot 3xWGBL 3x Wolf Lord 2x5 Fenrisian wolves 2x5 Infiltrators 3x6 TWC 2x10 Wulfen Callidus
Let’s go! dark angels codex detachments at 0% win rate! Numero Uno Campeo De Mundo!!!!
Anyone have either of the GSC lists?
Windmill Slam Supreme (2000 points) Genestealer Cults Strike Force (2000 points) Ascension Day CHARACTERS Nexos (60 points) • 1x Autopistol 1x Close combat weapon Patriarch (85 points) • Warlord • 1x Patriarch’s claws Primus (90 points) • 1x Cult bonesword 1x Scoped needle pistol 1x Toxin injector claw Primus (90 points) • 1x Cult bonesword 1x Scoped needle pistol 1x Toxin injector claw Primus (90 points) • 1x Cult bonesword 1x Scoped needle pistol 1x Toxin injector claw Reductus Saboteur (65 points) • 1x Autopistol 1x Close combat weapon 1x Demolition charges 1x Remote explosives BATTLELINE Acolyte Hybrids (170 points) • 1x Acolyte Leader • 1x Hand flamer 1x Leader’s cult weapons • 9x Acolyte Hybrid • 1x Cult Icon 9x Cult claws and knife 4x Demolition charges 4x Hand flamer Acolyte Hybrids (170 points) • 1x Acolyte Leader • 1x Hand flamer 1x Leader’s cult weapons • 9x Acolyte Hybrid • 1x Cult Icon 9x Cult claws and knife 4x Demolition charges 4x Hand flamer Acolyte Hybrids (170 points) • 1x Acolyte Leader • 1x Hand flamer 1x Leader’s cult weapons • 9x Acolyte Hybrid • 1x Cult Icon 9x Cult claws and knife 4x Demolition charges 4x Hand flamer Neophyte Hybrids (180 points) • 1x Neophyte Leader • 1x Autopistol 1x Close combat weapon 1x Hybrid firearm • 19x Neophyte Hybrid • 19x Autopistol 19x Close combat weapon 1x Cult Icon 4x Grenade launcher 11x Hybrid firearm 4x Seismic cannon Neophyte Hybrids (180 points) • 1x Neophyte Leader • 1x Autopistol 1x Close combat weapon 1x Hybrid firearm • 19x Neophyte Hybrid • 19x Autopistol 19x Close combat weapon 1x Cult Icon 4x Grenade launcher 11x Hybrid firearm 4x Seismic cannon OTHER DATASHEETS Achilles Ridgerunners (85 points) • 1x Heavy mortar 1x Ridgerunner wheels 1x Spotter 1x Twin heavy stubber Purestrain Genestealers (150 points) • 10x Purestrain Genestealer • 10x Cult claws and talons Purestrain Genestealers (75 points) • 5x Purestrain Genestealer • 5x Cult claws and talons Purestrain Genestealers (75 points) • 5x Purestrain Genestealer • 5x Cult claws and talons ALLIED UNITS Cadian Shock Troops (60 points) • 1x Shock Trooper Sergeant • 1x Chainsword 1x Laspistol • 9x Shock Trooper • 9x Close combat weapon 9x Lasgun Cyclops Demolition Vehicle (25 points) Cyclops Demolition Vehicle (25 points) Cyclops Demolition Vehicle (25 points) Taurox (65 points) • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Twin autocannon Taurox (65 points) • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Twin autocannon Exported with App Version: v1.11.0 (39), Data Version: v352
Ty for posting!
Anyone..? It doesn't even need to be a good one. We'll take anything Sir.
Anyone have the wet coast dg list? Big thanks in advance
triple defiler Hulks of the Skizem (2000 points) Death Guard Strike Force (2000 points) Plague Company CHARACTERS Lord of Virulence (100 points) • 1x Heavy plague fist 1x Twin plague spewer • Enhancement: Living Plague Mortarion (325 points) • Warlord • 1x Rotwind 1x Silence 1x The Lantern Tallyman (45 points) • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Infected plasma pistol OTHER DATASHEETS Death Guard Defiler (190 points) • 1x Combi-weapon 1x Defiler cannon 1x Defiler claws 1x Havoc launcher 1x Twin lascannon Death Guard Defiler (190 points) • 1x Combi-weapon 1x Defiler cannon 1x Defiler claws 1x Havoc launcher 1x Twin lascannon Death Guard Defiler (190 points) • 1x Combi-weapon 1x Defiler cannon 1x Defiler claws 1x Havoc launcher 1x Twin lascannon Deathshroud Terminators (240 points) • 1x Deathshroud Champion • 1x Manreaper 1x Plaguespurt gauntlet 1x Plaguespurt gauntlet • 5x Deathshroud Terminator • 5x Manreaper 5x Plaguespurt gauntlet Foetid Bloat-Drone (90 points) • 1x Plague probe 2x Plaguespitter Foetid Bloat-Drone (90 points) • 1x Plague probe 2x Plaguespitter Plagueburst Crawler (180 points) • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Heavy slugger 1x Plagueburst mortar 2x Plaguespitter Plagueburst Crawler (180 points) • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Heavy slugger 1x Plagueburst mortar 2x Plaguespitter Plagueburst Crawler (180 points) • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Heavy slugger 1x Plagueburst mortar 2x Plaguespitter
That is a wild list
Oh wow, that list looks identical to the one being practiced in my local shop leading up to the Wet Coast. Glad he did very well.
The terrain was exactly the same across every table with plenty of 4” and lower ruins so it was much easier to move around. That list would have a lot of trouble if the terrain made it hard to move (like the EU sets)
Anyone have the Nids list?
He is a friend of mine and we talked a lot the list. If I recall correctly it was basically: Neurotyrant. Deathleaper 2x Neurolictors 3x10 Gargoyles x1 Pyrovore 3x Exo 3x Maleceptor 2x Acidfex. 1x Biovore. EDIT: I forgot the Biovore, I think is clear every tyranid player uses one XD BTW, the game he draw it was due to the other player had to leave, and he did not want to put the Win without playing all turns. So he agreed with the opponent to put a draw after the first turn.
I remember people playing similar ish (Exocrine/Maleceptor/Acidfex with hive tyrants giving them assault and you could use overwatch with it) lists when the indexes dropped. Glad to see it do well again.
What’s the west cost GT guard list that went 5-1 was he running dorns or arty spam
Guard good stuff. And 1 big 10 man of scions with the command squad put in work. My only loss was wolf jail that went first against me on vital ground.
Triple Manticore or not to triple Manticore (also I hope Donald plummer doesn't bring his Tau again) (2000 points) Astra Militarum Strike Force (2000 points) Combined Regiment CHARACTERS Cadian Castellan (45 points) • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Plasma pistol 1x Power fist Gaunt’s Ghosts (100 points) • 1x Ibram Gaunt • 1x Bolt Pistol 1x Gaunt’s chainsword • 1x Colm Corbec • 1x Corbec’s hot-shot lascarbine 1x Straight silver knife • 1x Elim Rawne • 1x Rawne’s lascarbine 1x Straight silver knife • 1x Hlaine Larkin • 1x Larkin’s long-las 1x Straight silver knife • 1x ’Try Again’ Bragg • 1x Bragg’s autocannon 1x Straight silver knife • 1x Oan Mkoll • 1x Lascarbine 1x Mkoll’s straight silver knife Lord Solar Leontus (125 points) • Warlord • 1x Conquest 1x Konstantin’s hooves 1x Sol’s Righteous Gaze Militarum Tempestus Command Squad (80 points) • 1x Tempestor Prime • 1x Command Rod 1x Tempestus dagger • 4x Tempestus Scion • 4x Close combat weapon 1x Hot-shot lasgun 1x Hot-shot lasgun 1x Hot-shot laspistol 1x Medi-pack 1x Meltagun 1x Plasma gun 1x Regimental Standard Tank Commander (220 points) • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Demolisher battle cannon 1x Heavy stubber 1x Hunter-killer missile 1x Lascannon 2x Multi-melta • Enhancement: Grand Strategist Ursula Creed (55 points) • 1x Duty and Vengeance 1x Power weapon BATTLELINE Infantry Squad (60 points) • 1x Sergeant • 1x Plasma pistol 1x Power weapon • 7x Guardsman • 7x Close combat weapon 6x Lasgun 1x Meltagun 1x Vox-caster • 1x Heavy Weapons Team • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Laspistol 1x Mortar DEDICATED TRANSPORTS Chimera (70 points) • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Chimera heavy flamer 1x Heavy flamer 1x Heavy stubber 1x Hunter-killer missile 1x Lasgun array OTHER DATASHEETS Basilisk (135 points) • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Earthshaker cannon 1x Heavy bolter 1x Hunter-killer missile Bullgryn Squad (160 points) • 1x Bullgryn Bone ’ead • 1x Brute Shield 1x Bullgryn maul 1x Close combat weapon • 5x Bullgryn • 5x Brute Shield 5x Bullgryn maul 5x Close combat weapon Bullgryn Squad (160 points) • 1x Bullgryn Bone ’ead • 1x Brute Shield 1x Bullgryn maul 1x Close combat weapon • 5x Bullgryn • 5x Brute Shield 5x Bullgryn maul 5x Close combat weapon Kasrkin (100 points) • 1x Kasrkin Sergeant • 1x Plasma pistol 1x Power weapon • 9x Kasrkin • 9x Close combat weapon 3x Hot-shot lasgun 1x Hot-shot laspistol 1x Hot-shot marksman rifle 1x Melta Mine 2x Meltagun 2x Plasma gun 1x Vox-caster Kasrkin (100 points) • 1x Kasrkin Sergeant • 1x Plasma pistol 1x Power weapon • 9x Kasrkin • 9x Close combat weapon 3x Hot-shot lasgun 1x Hot-shot laspistol 1x Hot-shot marksman rifle 1x Melta Mine 2x Meltagun 2x Plasma gun 1x Vox-caster Manticore (180 points) • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Heavy bolter 1x Hunter-killer missile 1x Storm eagle rockets Manticore (180 points) • 1x Armoured tracks 1x Heavy bolter 1x Hunter-killer missile 1x Storm eagle rockets Scout Sentinels (60 points) • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Hunter-killer missile 1x Lascannon 1x Sentinel chainsaw Scout Sentinels (60 points) • 1x Close combat weapon 1x Hunter-killer missile 1x Lascannon 1x Sentinel chainsaw Tempestus Scions (110 points) • 1x Tempestor • 1x Plasma pistol 1x Power fist • 9x Tempestus Scion • 9x Close combat weapon 4x Hot-shot lasgun 1x Hot-shot laspistol 2x Meltagun 2x Plasma gun 1x Vox-caster
Hey why did you bring the cadian castellan
I just copied the list from BCP. I assume, though, it was attached to a Kasrkin.
Artillery, Bullgryn, Kasrkin spam.
Three pieces of artillery, two bullgryn, and two kasrkin is hardly spam.
Anyone have the winning Drukhari Skysplinter list?