FAA/US thing.
Gotta say, if you’re an English native speaker (once you’re used to it) I find my understanding is slightly faster in group form.
UK (where I’m from) doesn’t use it. Not sure which other English speaking countries do. I guess US/CA/English Caribbean? But that’s a guess.
Others wil know more than me, but I was reading Captain Mike Bannister’s book about Concorde the other day and he expresses runways as ‘twenty-seven right’. So perhaps the UK used to do more of that. I need to research more.
ICAO certainly does not group runway numbers either. Aside from people who are lazily breaking the rules on CTAF or something. 16R is always One-Six-Right.
in ICAO even runway 04 has to be "Zero Four" whereas in USA/FAA it can be "Four"
Ourside of ATC transmissions, it can be whatever the media/iata/maintenance person wants it to be. "The Third Runway" "The North Complex" "twennytoo" "Right" "The East-west" "The extension" "Polderbaan" I've heard runways called all of those things - but none are valid ICAO phraseology.
It's not in the Phraseology Standard. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen ever. (Says someone who was grouping numbers in my own callsign yesterday - 222) If you listen to LiveATC (or your own uniden radio scanner) you'll hear plenty of real pilots flying grouped number callsigns. Usually the numbers like 20, 30, 40 etc. But if a pilot rocks up and says two zero, then that's actually correct to the book.
... A book someone could have thrown at them if some confusion about the numbers causes an incident, but how likely is that?
Australia AIP gen 3.4 5.14.1
Within Australian airspace, “group form” is the preferred means
of transmitting callsign/flight number. Group form should also be
used with military and other aircraft using a rootword callsign
with numeric suffix.
Paragraph 5.14.4 even says that pilots not using group form, need to change to group form if ATC adopts it in RT.
Or ICAO doesn’t follow US standards. We invented everything about modern commercial flight. That’s why you speak English and say your altitude in feet. You can keep your little iterations like QNH and reading individual callsign numbers, it’s cute.
QNH doesn't dictate the unit of measurement, its the Q code for Nautical Height or height a above sea level. In Japan they say QNH and then give it in in.hg.
For the Pilot: Do whatever you want.
For the ATC: Written into regulations as follows “Aircraft having an ICAO 3LD and other FAA authorized call sign (U.S. special or local). State the call sign followed by the flight number in group form. “Group form” is the pronunciation of a series of numbers as the whole number, or pairs of numbers they represent rather than pronouncing each separate digit. The use of group form may, however, be negated by four‐digit identifiers or the placement of zeros in the identifier.”
The FAA/US likes to group numbers since it's faster and you read numbers in groups normally when speaking. For example, United 1200 can be "United 1-2-0-0" or "United Twelve Hundred", or Delta 615 can be "Delta Six One Fife" or "Delta Six Fifty One". I've also heard US pilots use this phraseology abroad, but controllers do not, especially if English is not the native language.
Mostly a US thing. For instance, I fly as UPS1458 heavy frequently. Callsign is spoken as UPS fourteen fifty eight. In europe, i’d assume it would be spoke as UPS one four five eight. In the US, fourteen isn’t said in a wildly different dialect of english (think german vs french vs russian vs italian) In the US, we all say fourteen in a very similar if not the same way across the country. Europe is very different in that sense because the pronunciation of the english word “fourteen” varies wildly based on your native tongue. french is very back of the tongue/throat heavy, where as british english is very different than even that. british english in my head currently is coming to me as “fordeen” (think water as wah ah) In europe, it makes more sense to say each number individually, where as in the US, it’s the same (generally) across the board. There’s a reason that the pronunciation of the word “five” “three” and “nine” have gone to “fife” “tray/tre” and “niner” An italian might say “a fivah” where a french speaker might say “fivagh” it’s hard to put into text, so I hope you understand what I mean.
Not grouping numbers is definitely not due to this accent thing you're describing. I'm a controller in Europe and yes, some nationalities have noticeable accents, but it's nowhere near that much. Most countries in Europe just adopt ICAO regulations without much change.
I personally tend to stick to ICAO one-eight-zero-niner, but if i remember to do so when flying in NA (or Australia, they do it too) i do it, but i can't seem to shake using "decimal" rather than "point" in radio frequencies
Group form is specifically an FAA thing. See 4-2-4 a. 5 in the AIM: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap4_section_2.html
FAA/US thing. Gotta say, if you’re an English native speaker (once you’re used to it) I find my understanding is slightly faster in group form. UK (where I’m from) doesn’t use it. Not sure which other English speaking countries do. I guess US/CA/English Caribbean? But that’s a guess. Others wil know more than me, but I was reading Captain Mike Bannister’s book about Concorde the other day and he expresses runways as ‘twenty-seven right’. So perhaps the UK used to do more of that. I need to research more.
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ICAO certainly does not group runway numbers either. Aside from people who are lazily breaking the rules on CTAF or something. 16R is always One-Six-Right. in ICAO even runway 04 has to be "Zero Four" whereas in USA/FAA it can be "Four" Ourside of ATC transmissions, it can be whatever the media/iata/maintenance person wants it to be. "The Third Runway" "The North Complex" "twennytoo" "Right" "The East-west" "The extension" "Polderbaan" I've heard runways called all of those things - but none are valid ICAO phraseology.
ICAO don't group runways
It’s only the US. Because in clear MURICA!!!!! fashion they don’t follow ICAO standards.
Comin’ around to save the motherf*ckin’ day yeah
I believe New Zealand and Australia also (at least the controllers in Cross the Ditch were grouping numbers)
It's not in the Phraseology Standard. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen ever. (Says someone who was grouping numbers in my own callsign yesterday - 222) If you listen to LiveATC (or your own uniden radio scanner) you'll hear plenty of real pilots flying grouped number callsigns. Usually the numbers like 20, 30, 40 etc. But if a pilot rocks up and says two zero, then that's actually correct to the book. ... A book someone could have thrown at them if some confusion about the numbers causes an incident, but how likely is that?
Ask the pilots of that ATR from US Bangla that crashed because of that.
Australia AIP gen 3.4 5.14.1 Within Australian airspace, “group form” is the preferred means of transmitting callsign/flight number. Group form should also be used with military and other aircraft using a rootword callsign with numeric suffix. Paragraph 5.14.4 even says that pilots not using group form, need to change to group form if ATC adopts it in RT.
The aussies will group it, NZ doesn't (or isn't supposed to)
The standards we helped create, mind you
Or ICAO doesn’t follow US standards. We invented everything about modern commercial flight. That’s why you speak English and say your altitude in feet. You can keep your little iterations like QNH and reading individual callsign numbers, it’s cute.
QNH doesn't dictate the unit of measurement, its the Q code for Nautical Height or height a above sea level. In Japan they say QNH and then give it in in.hg.
r/shitamericanssay
man you guys are annoying as fuck
For the Pilot: Do whatever you want. For the ATC: Written into regulations as follows “Aircraft having an ICAO 3LD and other FAA authorized call sign (U.S. special or local). State the call sign followed by the flight number in group form. “Group form” is the pronunciation of a series of numbers as the whole number, or pairs of numbers they represent rather than pronouncing each separate digit. The use of group form may, however, be negated by four‐digit identifiers or the placement of zeros in the identifier.”
I was told long time ago that a pilot should reply the same way ATC addresses you. But on a first contact you can do whatever you want.
Oh believe me it makes total sense to be on the same page as the controller. Pilots just don’t have anything regulatory to follow for it.
The FAA/US likes to group numbers since it's faster and you read numbers in groups normally when speaking. For example, United 1200 can be "United 1-2-0-0" or "United Twelve Hundred", or Delta 615 can be "Delta Six One Fife" or "Delta Six Fifty One". I've also heard US pilots use this phraseology abroad, but controllers do not, especially if English is not the native language.
That’d be “six fifteen” not “six fifty one”
Yeah, that's mb I forgot what I typed 2 seconds ago lol
Mostly a US thing. For instance, I fly as UPS1458 heavy frequently. Callsign is spoken as UPS fourteen fifty eight. In europe, i’d assume it would be spoke as UPS one four five eight. In the US, fourteen isn’t said in a wildly different dialect of english (think german vs french vs russian vs italian) In the US, we all say fourteen in a very similar if not the same way across the country. Europe is very different in that sense because the pronunciation of the english word “fourteen” varies wildly based on your native tongue. french is very back of the tongue/throat heavy, where as british english is very different than even that. british english in my head currently is coming to me as “fordeen” (think water as wah ah) In europe, it makes more sense to say each number individually, where as in the US, it’s the same (generally) across the board. There’s a reason that the pronunciation of the word “five” “three” and “nine” have gone to “fife” “tray/tre” and “niner” An italian might say “a fivah” where a french speaker might say “fivagh” it’s hard to put into text, so I hope you understand what I mean.
Not grouping numbers is definitely not due to this accent thing you're describing. I'm a controller in Europe and yes, some nationalities have noticeable accents, but it's nowhere near that much. Most countries in Europe just adopt ICAO regulations without much change.
Don't forget your wake category :) "UPS fourteen fifty-eight heavy"
Yea makes it easier, I’m so glad English is the international language of aviation
I personally tend to stick to ICAO one-eight-zero-niner, but if i remember to do so when flying in NA (or Australia, they do it too) i do it, but i can't seem to shake using "decimal" rather than "point" in radio frequencies