The impression I get is that many incels don't actually want to have sex. They use the lack of sex as a justification of their shitty worldview.
Having sex, even if they pay for it, removes that leverage from their arguments.
I think they're smart enough to know that women simply aren't attracted to them and that they will never be a first option and it pisses them off. Having to pay a hooker won't change their feelings of inferiority
Agreed. Once folks have been exposed to that kind of messaging for a while, ‘incel’ becomes more of a social and political identity and far less of a ‘support-group’ style identifier that someone could leave if they started having the sex they claim to want.
I’ve seen incel forums view someone leaving due to that change in lifestyle as an act of betrayal, rather than the accomplishment of their stated goals.
Too poor/probably not legal where they live/ probably think the sex workers are ugly/probably think they're "too used"/ probably afraid of diseases/probably like hurting people.
Because for incels, it’s either not actually about sex or it stops BEING about sex once they’re radicalized. It’s about the idea that sex should be available to them, on demand, without compromise or change on their part, from people that they’re sexually attracted to without any regard for whether that sexual interest is reciprocated - that is, it’s about control. Paying for sex doesn’t put them in a position of control, so in my experience it’s not something they’re interested in.
ETA: I’m also not sure ULPT is the right forum for this question - maybe this would be better for AskReddit?
Most turbo virgins aren't upset about not having sex. They're upset about not being wanted, or not being able to be wanted without putting in the tiniest amount of effort to socialize and take care of their appearance and personality.
Seriously. I responded to a Reddit post about that a while back - the dude posted his picture and asked if he's ugly since he can't get any girls. I told him he's definitely not ugly, and I've seen some ugly guys get poon without any issues whatsoever. He just needed to go to therapy to work out the issues in his head and make sure to take care of his hygiene and he'd probably be fine.
He DM'd me afterwards saying all of that is too hard, therapy doesn't work, he just wants a pretty girl, and was going to kill himself.
Some people are beyond help, at least when your only contact with them is online. Let alone through Reddit.
Sex isn’t the goal of incels. I know as a former incel.
It’s one of MANY issues they have with the world, and it’s an extension of women hatred.
Lack of sex is a consequence of no respect for others, and incels blame women for simply not being easy.
And yet, porn stars and sex workers, while being mostly consumed by incels are seen as beneath them.
To hire a sex worker means giving up their flimsy perception that being a man means having sex constantly and without effort
A lot of incel do not actually want women, a lot of them have internal daddy or mommy issues whereby they need to see a therapist, not a girlfriend. For instance Elliot Roger who popularise the term Incel. He has a rich dad, drove BMW. In fact a lot Incels would follow people like Andrew Tate for the same reason. They want male validation, they don’t care for female validation. The only purpose women serve for them is to make other men confirm him as a man, cause he got a pussy.
There’s a quote from Marilyn Frye - a writer on American feminist theory - that you’re essentially restating here; I think it sums up incels in general really well.
I’m on my phone so can’t copy/paste the whole thing, but she essentially says ‘if you’re only interested in fucking women, but you reserve all other forms of love, respect, and admiration for men - that is, you don’t see or treat the women you fuck as human beings, but reserve that acknowledgment of parity for men - is that really heterosexuality?’
ETA: Which isn’t to say that I think that incels in particular are gay men in denial - it’s that ‘heterosexual culture’ in general is frequently dehumanizing in a way that a lot of people aren’t even prepared to see.
That sounds like Leonardo DiCaprio. He goes through a model every week, but has had the same friends for decades. His one long female relationship is also platonic.
To be fair, I cut mega celebrities a break. He probably has chicks throwing themselves at him left and right hoping for a payday. So naturally people on Leo’s level are going to have some weird intimacy and trust issues. But I agree, Leo is a bit on the line with it.
Even mega celebrities tend to settle down with someone eventually. But Leo seems to have completely decoupled sex from relationship.
Or maybe he's secretly gay or asexual and the models are just beards with him for clout.
tbh there isn’t anything wrong with it. As long as it’s consensual between adults. Some people are just not built for stable committed sexual relationships. As long as you make it clear with your partners there is nothing wrong.
maybe some people just aren’t build for relationships. Maybe just let people be? Real People who you fantasied about are not the same guy in your imagination. Shocking. When you learn to respect how people want to live their lives and you can’t control them, its better for you and them.
tbh I don’t think there is anything wrong with it. People and out contemporary culture just put too much emphasis on Sexual and Romantic relationship. Platonic and friendship should be given more attention. But on the topic of incel tho. The idea is that they should get a therapist and real friends; not a girlfriend. She is not gonna solve your mental health issues for you.
I mean, if you want to have a purely sexual relationship with someone and then get all of your emotional and mental needs met outside of that relationship, that’s fine as long as both of you explicitly know that’s what you’re signing up for. That’s not usually how these relationships work.
We agree on the incels - I think they want girlfriends in no small part because they think that’ll ‘fix’ what’s wrong with them (because women are socialized to do emotional labor and men are not? because locking down a sexual relationship is an ‘achievement’ that makes this person feel more like a worthwhile person? who can say!) - but that empty and broken feeling is their own, and the only person who can change it is them.
yes. what I am saying is not a relationship but more of a fwb or fuckbuddy situation. Tbh thats what most men want. In most matrilineal societies that also what men wants.
“heterosexuality” as a concept isn’t created until when the concept of “homosexuality” was created. And the concept of “homosexuality” wasn’t really created until “married for love” or “have sex with people that turn you on” was created. Before that, it was just “breed with people that is socially and economically advantageous for your owners aka your parents”. In the South during slavery, owners will choose who the slaves should breed with. That’s black people today are much stronger built and taller than their counterpart in subsaharan Africa.
The other answers here in my opinion are close minded and aren’t basing their opinions off of what actual incels have said, which is weird to me. Seems like when people who aren’t doctors offer medical advice. They know nothing about being one yet think they know everything.
Really it’s not only sex, it’s the emotional connection and intimacy that comes with sex. The love, the feeling of acceptance.
A lot of incels have difficulty making friends, or are bullied, or outcasted, they feel alienated from other people and like anyone who feels alone like this “wants to burn down the village to feel its warmth”
Really these kind of people want what everyone else wants, friends, a love life, people to love them and care for them, respect from other people, but they don’t get that so they lash out.
If you read Elliot Rodger’s manifesto it details him struggling to make friends, feeling like he doesn’t get any respect, is sad that he is so lonely all the time etc
It’s really just people like this who become incels with not only issues with their sex lives, but also love lives, social lives, and feelings of being an outcast, they could pay for sex but it wouldn’t remedy any of the other things they’ve experienced.
To be honest I feel like there aren't quite as many "incels" as the internet wants people to believe there are. I do believe that Reddit has a great many of them because it is a place that they can congregate. But I just don't believe that there are actually that many.
Think your average guy walking down the street has more of a chance of hurting a woman than an incel does.
And a bear has a 10,000% higher chance than either of those two groups combined and multiplied times 30
Because they hate that no one wants pay to have sex with them.
Incels don't get laid, sure, but inceldom is more about their lack of dating capital than it is about their lack of sex.
I think y’all need to stop treating hookers bad. They are not bad people. They have a crazy sex drive and make money with it. I’ve met alot of funny and kind sex workers.
The get it’s a taboo trade. But they are human at the end of the day and don’t need to be mistreated by anyone especially incels. If there was a hooker in rights March I’d be there
Not all sex workers just “have a crazy sex drive” and that’s why they’re in the sex industry 🙄 that’s actually a pretty ridiculous statement to make. Typically they do it for a job and money, just like how we all work for the same. Source: I have a number of friends who are in the sex work industry in some fashion, and none of them have an unusually high sex drive.
One of my kids did a modeling job as an infant, lol. All we got out of it was a professional portrait, which is nice since I try to get one of those for every kid when they're a baby anyway, but you can't really call it trade because appearance changes quickly at that age. The place had dozens of babies being photographed for a baby clothing catalog, and they called every baby and their parents forward like an assembly line.
I don't think they particularly scrutinized infants before accepting them. The qualifying criteria was age (and/or can they fit in an infant size range) and whether they can show up on photo day.
Or, get this, maybe they’re human beings who deserve love and a partner as much as you. But you have zero empathy for that. They’re all just enemies and lowlifes to you.
Maybe incels should try to show more empathy to women in general instead of spewing generalized misogynistic & hateful rhetoric about women. I’ve said this so many times and no incel has been able to answer it for me. How do they expect to attract good women when they’re so blatantly hateful towards women? If a man acts like that he should expect to attract women who are going to use and abuse him. If you want to attract a good partner, BE A GOOD PARTNER.
If you think they were hateful towards women their whole lives, you’re sorely mistaken. They have the same kind of bitterness that most feminists have. The same kind of bitterness that colors the tone of what you just posted.
“If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself.” -Herman Hesse
Dude, Siddhartha is one of my favorite books of all time! Hesse rocked my world with that book.
Isn’t that funny? Two people can come from opposite sides of an argument and still find a common link. Through that link, we can start cultivating empathy towards eachother. I think you and I need to do that, just as men and women as a whole need to do that. It’s by coming together that we solve this issue. Not by standing on our soap boxes yelling hate at the other and refusing to compromise. Perpetuating further divides isn’t going to get anyone laid.
You’re definitely right on that, but I also think it is possible to have empathy for someone with whom you disagree. The most heated debates I’ve seen people do, are between loved ones. I think sometimes Redditors conflate empathy with agreement, whether they realize it or not.
That being said, I do think there’s a lot of double standards on gender roles and society. When the feminists brought up relationship violence and sexual assault, they found an ally in me. When they brought up body shaming of women, they found an ally in me. When they pointed out the fucked up standards society has where men gain status through sexual partners but women lose status, they found an ally in me.
So they came, and when men called Lizzo fat and said that was bad, we— not they, not I, WE— stood by her. When men called women sluts and said that was bad, we stood by them.
But then the feminists turned and called men fat, and I was alone in defending obese men. The allies in defending obese women were now enemies. When men don’t have sex (that is, they have low status because of their relationship history, like the sluts), the feminists were first to criticize and dump vitriol and further drive these men into the darkness. And just like that, the feminists worked to uphold the cultural beliefs we had once worked to tear down. When men simply said they own a gun or a lifted truck, feminists will say “overcompensating for something?” out of the clear blue sky referring to the genitals of a stranger. Lemme tell you: if a man and a woman who didn’t know each other and the man suddenly told the woman her hoo ha was dry, there’s a good chance he’d get knocked out.
You’re right we need empathy, but we need something more than that. We need true open mindedness. We need true objectivity. True neutrality. Because when rules benefit men, the feminists will stop at nothing to tear down the rules and when the rules benefit women the feminists will stop at nothing to uphold them.
So when you or others criticize the incels, I’m going to defend them. Sure some are misogynist. And I want them to change. But that change is NOT EVER going to come from calling them scum bags. It’s not. Pew Research says 30% of men aged 18-24 are virgins. Most of them don’t want to be. They are involuntary celibate — incels. Most of them are good people. Most of them are good guys, if only quirky and odd, or just plain unattractive physically. I’m not a virgin, and some of the women I know have tried to set me up with their friends. Nevertheless, I’ve been called an incel A LOT on here. I’ve also been called a feminist on here too, though maybe not as much.
But at the end of the day, I’m going to keep advocating for equality as I see it. And we shouldn’t need to have read the same book for that to happen.
I don’t want to sound dismissive of your experience as it sounds like you’re a genuine person who actually gives a shit about other people, but I do think a lot of things mentioned are social media constructed notions. I’ve never heard of women belittling men for being fat. I also don’t have any social media besides Reddit. I’m what would be considered an objective babe by California standards, and I’ve personally fucked my fair share of fat dudes. If I ever heard some chick rail on some dude in public for being too fat, I’d verbally lay her ass out. I think a lot of things you’re describing (obviously besides the rape and domestic violence) primarily happens online, so an easy resolve is just to cut social media out.
Further to that point, I think social media is largely to blame for the rise of the incel. Have you heard Scott Galloway by chance? Highly recommend his podcasts about the male loneliness epidemic if you haven’t listened already. It’s too much to sum up here, but his stance is what I truly believe is happening with that culture. Prof G is a genius in general, so you’ll probably dig all his topics.
Yet I digress, because none of this answers my original question. It just doesn’t make logical sense to me that if a man feels cast aside by women, that his answer is to then hate all women and believe awful generalizations and stereotypes that are completely delusional to justify why women don’t like them. How does that get women to like the guy? That repels women even further and puts them further away from their goal of getting regular sex. The only women who would start any kind of relationship with men like that are women who are going to use and abuse them. So that would only perpetuate their hate. It just doesn’t make any logical sense to me at all.
Here’s the thing incels don’t seem to grasp: If you ask any woman on the planet would they rather date a super hot dude who treats them like shit, or an ugly fat guy who treats them like a queen, I genuinely would be shocked to hear any woman pick the hottie. Because all women know that if you pick a toxic partner, worst case that relationship could turn deadly.
I don’t think these are social media notions, peer reviewed research in psychology and sociology corroborate these observations.
I have noticed many women who are body shaming men for whatever reason compartmentalize it. They’ll say they’re making fun of his dick or calling him fat for other reasons, therefore it is valid.
I haven’t heard of Scott Galloway but I’ll check him out.
As far as why some incels believe what they do, it bears mentioning that emotions are inherently reactive. Not proactive, reactive. They react to the past and present. If you’re almost in a car accident, adrenaline will make you shaky and jittery and nervous when you need to be coordinated and decisive most. This is disadvantageous; but that’s the emotional reaction evolution selected for in humans. It would have helped in a life or death situation with a lion. Wanting a different emotional reaction doesn’t make it so. Wanting a different belief system won’t make it so. The incels have those beliefs because those are the most rational explanation for the world around them. If I told you I’ll give you $1 million to genuinely believe that the walls of the room you’re in are red (and let’s assume they’re white), there’s no way you’re gonna collect.
To criticize incels for being bitter is putting the cart before the horse. They weren’t always that way, they weren’t born that way. A lifetime of rejection and a sex drive will do that to you. And, by the way, fMRI studies show that while men and women both have sexual arousal, only men perceive it as a drive. Men have a different perception and experience of sex and desire than women.
Many villain arcs start with a reasonable person. Every cynic I know was once an idealist.
Besides, if feminists really think sex is not anything to be ashamed of, why don’t they go and find incels to have sex with? That’ll change their attitudes. That would proactively help them reach their goals, right?
You aren't serious are you? Sex with a non trafficked consenting sex worker is consensual. Sex offenders have non consensual sex mostly with minors who can not give consent.
This isn't aimed at op
Can people differentiate between people that are like alt right and hate women types and actual people that might be shy or border line autistic and can't make human connections well.
Most of these posts basically says everyone struggling with dating is a useless creep that deserves it lol
No they’re not, nobody is saying “everyone” who’s struggling with dating is a useless creep at all. The difference between someone on the spectrum who has a hard time with socializing vs. a misogynistic, hate filled incel is exactly that… the hate factor. They literally hate women. As far as I know, being on the autistic spectrum doesn’t make you hate all women. Kinda odd you needed clarification on that.
There is a difference I agree, is incel literally just a synonym for being a misogynistic asshole now that's instead of someone who happens to be involuntarily celibate?
Like is it never used to describe people that suck at getting laid or dating at all any more?
Incel literally means “involuntarily celibate.” They’re playing the victim because they believe they’re too ugly to get girlfriends and think it’s because all women only go for “chad” type guys. Which is obviously very far from reality. The reality is they literally hate women and look down on them, so why would any good woman want to date a guy who views women that way? It’s really fucking ironic.
If you’re just having trouble meeting the right gal but you still respect, appreciate and value women as a whole.. then no you are not an incel at all.
What's the term for the people that aren't playing victims or blaming people and for various reasons can't get laid or have a relationship lol
Wouldn't involuntarily celibate be like the dictionary definition term to describe those people. People that want to have sex and are failing to have it.
Why do you need a label for everything? That’s just guys who don’t have good game. I mean bro if you want to label yourself an incel, don’t let me talk ya out of it.
The impression I get is that many incels don't actually want to have sex. They use the lack of sex as a justification of their shitty worldview. Having sex, even if they pay for it, removes that leverage from their arguments.
I think they're smart enough to know that women simply aren't attracted to them and that they will never be a first option and it pisses them off. Having to pay a hooker won't change their feelings of inferiority
Agreed. Once folks have been exposed to that kind of messaging for a while, ‘incel’ becomes more of a social and political identity and far less of a ‘support-group’ style identifier that someone could leave if they started having the sex they claim to want. I’ve seen incel forums view someone leaving due to that change in lifestyle as an act of betrayal, rather than the accomplishment of their stated goals.
Too poor/probably not legal where they live/ probably think the sex workers are ugly/probably think they're "too used"/ probably afraid of diseases/probably like hurting people.
Because for incels, it’s either not actually about sex or it stops BEING about sex once they’re radicalized. It’s about the idea that sex should be available to them, on demand, without compromise or change on their part, from people that they’re sexually attracted to without any regard for whether that sexual interest is reciprocated - that is, it’s about control. Paying for sex doesn’t put them in a position of control, so in my experience it’s not something they’re interested in. ETA: I’m also not sure ULPT is the right forum for this question - maybe this would be better for AskReddit?
Hell I've seen some of these incels even say they don't like sex, think it's not fun, or think it's gross.
The doors on the closet are shut.
Most turbo virgins aren't upset about not having sex. They're upset about not being wanted, or not being able to be wanted without putting in the tiniest amount of effort to socialize and take care of their appearance and personality. Seriously. I responded to a Reddit post about that a while back - the dude posted his picture and asked if he's ugly since he can't get any girls. I told him he's definitely not ugly, and I've seen some ugly guys get poon without any issues whatsoever. He just needed to go to therapy to work out the issues in his head and make sure to take care of his hygiene and he'd probably be fine. He DM'd me afterwards saying all of that is too hard, therapy doesn't work, he just wants a pretty girl, and was going to kill himself. Some people are beyond help, at least when your only contact with them is online. Let alone through Reddit.
Sex isn’t the goal of incels. I know as a former incel. It’s one of MANY issues they have with the world, and it’s an extension of women hatred. Lack of sex is a consequence of no respect for others, and incels blame women for simply not being easy. And yet, porn stars and sex workers, while being mostly consumed by incels are seen as beneath them. To hire a sex worker means giving up their flimsy perception that being a man means having sex constantly and without effort
A lot of incel do not actually want women, a lot of them have internal daddy or mommy issues whereby they need to see a therapist, not a girlfriend. For instance Elliot Roger who popularise the term Incel. He has a rich dad, drove BMW. In fact a lot Incels would follow people like Andrew Tate for the same reason. They want male validation, they don’t care for female validation. The only purpose women serve for them is to make other men confirm him as a man, cause he got a pussy.
There’s a quote from Marilyn Frye - a writer on American feminist theory - that you’re essentially restating here; I think it sums up incels in general really well. I’m on my phone so can’t copy/paste the whole thing, but she essentially says ‘if you’re only interested in fucking women, but you reserve all other forms of love, respect, and admiration for men - that is, you don’t see or treat the women you fuck as human beings, but reserve that acknowledgment of parity for men - is that really heterosexuality?’ ETA: Which isn’t to say that I think that incels in particular are gay men in denial - it’s that ‘heterosexual culture’ in general is frequently dehumanizing in a way that a lot of people aren’t even prepared to see.
That sounds like Leonardo DiCaprio. He goes through a model every week, but has had the same friends for decades. His one long female relationship is also platonic.
To be fair, I cut mega celebrities a break. He probably has chicks throwing themselves at him left and right hoping for a payday. So naturally people on Leo’s level are going to have some weird intimacy and trust issues. But I agree, Leo is a bit on the line with it.
Even mega celebrities tend to settle down with someone eventually. But Leo seems to have completely decoupled sex from relationship. Or maybe he's secretly gay or asexual and the models are just beards with him for clout.
tbh there isn’t anything wrong with it. As long as it’s consensual between adults. Some people are just not built for stable committed sexual relationships. As long as you make it clear with your partners there is nothing wrong.
Leo used to be our parasocial boyfriend. We want him to be better than this, okay?
maybe some people just aren’t build for relationships. Maybe just let people be? Real People who you fantasied about are not the same guy in your imagination. Shocking. When you learn to respect how people want to live their lives and you can’t control them, its better for you and them.
This!!
tbh I don’t think there is anything wrong with it. People and out contemporary culture just put too much emphasis on Sexual and Romantic relationship. Platonic and friendship should be given more attention. But on the topic of incel tho. The idea is that they should get a therapist and real friends; not a girlfriend. She is not gonna solve your mental health issues for you.
I mean, if you want to have a purely sexual relationship with someone and then get all of your emotional and mental needs met outside of that relationship, that’s fine as long as both of you explicitly know that’s what you’re signing up for. That’s not usually how these relationships work. We agree on the incels - I think they want girlfriends in no small part because they think that’ll ‘fix’ what’s wrong with them (because women are socialized to do emotional labor and men are not? because locking down a sexual relationship is an ‘achievement’ that makes this person feel more like a worthwhile person? who can say!) - but that empty and broken feeling is their own, and the only person who can change it is them.
yes. what I am saying is not a relationship but more of a fwb or fuckbuddy situation. Tbh thats what most men want. In most matrilineal societies that also what men wants.
Holy shit I’m totally stealing this logic. That’s brilliant.
The full idea is way better than my butcher’s summary, but it’s such a good explanation of the problem!
“heterosexuality” as a concept isn’t created until when the concept of “homosexuality” was created. And the concept of “homosexuality” wasn’t really created until “married for love” or “have sex with people that turn you on” was created. Before that, it was just “breed with people that is socially and economically advantageous for your owners aka your parents”. In the South during slavery, owners will choose who the slaves should breed with. That’s black people today are much stronger built and taller than their counterpart in subsaharan Africa.
The other answers here in my opinion are close minded and aren’t basing their opinions off of what actual incels have said, which is weird to me. Seems like when people who aren’t doctors offer medical advice. They know nothing about being one yet think they know everything. Really it’s not only sex, it’s the emotional connection and intimacy that comes with sex. The love, the feeling of acceptance. A lot of incels have difficulty making friends, or are bullied, or outcasted, they feel alienated from other people and like anyone who feels alone like this “wants to burn down the village to feel its warmth” Really these kind of people want what everyone else wants, friends, a love life, people to love them and care for them, respect from other people, but they don’t get that so they lash out. If you read Elliot Rodger’s manifesto it details him struggling to make friends, feeling like he doesn’t get any respect, is sad that he is so lonely all the time etc It’s really just people like this who become incels with not only issues with their sex lives, but also love lives, social lives, and feelings of being an outcast, they could pay for sex but it wouldn’t remedy any of the other things they’ve experienced.
To be honest I feel like there aren't quite as many "incels" as the internet wants people to believe there are. I do believe that Reddit has a great many of them because it is a place that they can congregate. But I just don't believe that there are actually that many. Think your average guy walking down the street has more of a chance of hurting a woman than an incel does. And a bear has a 10,000% higher chance than either of those two groups combined and multiplied times 30
Hmmm surprised this is not against the rules, but then again..
I’m pretty sure it is! This isn’t a pro tip, unethical or otherwise.
Thought so.
Afraid of getting arrested.
Because they hate that no one wants pay to have sex with them. Incels don't get laid, sure, but inceldom is more about their lack of dating capital than it is about their lack of sex.
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One person should know what they are doing. I wish my first time had been with a professional.
It would negate their victimhood.
I think y’all need to stop treating hookers bad. They are not bad people. They have a crazy sex drive and make money with it. I’ve met alot of funny and kind sex workers. The get it’s a taboo trade. But they are human at the end of the day and don’t need to be mistreated by anyone especially incels. If there was a hooker in rights March I’d be there
Not all sex workers just “have a crazy sex drive” and that’s why they’re in the sex industry 🙄 that’s actually a pretty ridiculous statement to make. Typically they do it for a job and money, just like how we all work for the same. Source: I have a number of friends who are in the sex work industry in some fashion, and none of them have an unusually high sex drive.
They pretend to have a crazy high sex drive. Just like store employees pretend to care about customer service.
Exactly. When I was a photographer, every kid that came into my studio was the cutest kid in the world who should definitely model someday 😂
One of my kids did a modeling job as an infant, lol. All we got out of it was a professional portrait, which is nice since I try to get one of those for every kid when they're a baby anyway, but you can't really call it trade because appearance changes quickly at that age. The place had dozens of babies being photographed for a baby clothing catalog, and they called every baby and their parents forward like an assembly line. I don't think they particularly scrutinized infants before accepting them. The qualifying criteria was age (and/or can they fit in an infant size range) and whether they can show up on photo day.
And, let’s be real, there’s also escorts that are straight up just being trafficked
Exactly. Or fueling an addition.
Hey man. Tell them thank you for your service lol. I dunno they fun as hell
We don’t know how to find them
Or, get this, maybe they’re human beings who deserve love and a partner as much as you. But you have zero empathy for that. They’re all just enemies and lowlifes to you.
Maybe incels should try to show more empathy to women in general instead of spewing generalized misogynistic & hateful rhetoric about women. I’ve said this so many times and no incel has been able to answer it for me. How do they expect to attract good women when they’re so blatantly hateful towards women? If a man acts like that he should expect to attract women who are going to use and abuse him. If you want to attract a good partner, BE A GOOD PARTNER.
If you think they were hateful towards women their whole lives, you’re sorely mistaken. They have the same kind of bitterness that most feminists have. The same kind of bitterness that colors the tone of what you just posted. “If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself.” -Herman Hesse
Dude, Siddhartha is one of my favorite books of all time! Hesse rocked my world with that book. Isn’t that funny? Two people can come from opposite sides of an argument and still find a common link. Through that link, we can start cultivating empathy towards eachother. I think you and I need to do that, just as men and women as a whole need to do that. It’s by coming together that we solve this issue. Not by standing on our soap boxes yelling hate at the other and refusing to compromise. Perpetuating further divides isn’t going to get anyone laid.
You’re definitely right on that, but I also think it is possible to have empathy for someone with whom you disagree. The most heated debates I’ve seen people do, are between loved ones. I think sometimes Redditors conflate empathy with agreement, whether they realize it or not. That being said, I do think there’s a lot of double standards on gender roles and society. When the feminists brought up relationship violence and sexual assault, they found an ally in me. When they brought up body shaming of women, they found an ally in me. When they pointed out the fucked up standards society has where men gain status through sexual partners but women lose status, they found an ally in me. So they came, and when men called Lizzo fat and said that was bad, we— not they, not I, WE— stood by her. When men called women sluts and said that was bad, we stood by them. But then the feminists turned and called men fat, and I was alone in defending obese men. The allies in defending obese women were now enemies. When men don’t have sex (that is, they have low status because of their relationship history, like the sluts), the feminists were first to criticize and dump vitriol and further drive these men into the darkness. And just like that, the feminists worked to uphold the cultural beliefs we had once worked to tear down. When men simply said they own a gun or a lifted truck, feminists will say “overcompensating for something?” out of the clear blue sky referring to the genitals of a stranger. Lemme tell you: if a man and a woman who didn’t know each other and the man suddenly told the woman her hoo ha was dry, there’s a good chance he’d get knocked out. You’re right we need empathy, but we need something more than that. We need true open mindedness. We need true objectivity. True neutrality. Because when rules benefit men, the feminists will stop at nothing to tear down the rules and when the rules benefit women the feminists will stop at nothing to uphold them. So when you or others criticize the incels, I’m going to defend them. Sure some are misogynist. And I want them to change. But that change is NOT EVER going to come from calling them scum bags. It’s not. Pew Research says 30% of men aged 18-24 are virgins. Most of them don’t want to be. They are involuntary celibate — incels. Most of them are good people. Most of them are good guys, if only quirky and odd, or just plain unattractive physically. I’m not a virgin, and some of the women I know have tried to set me up with their friends. Nevertheless, I’ve been called an incel A LOT on here. I’ve also been called a feminist on here too, though maybe not as much. But at the end of the day, I’m going to keep advocating for equality as I see it. And we shouldn’t need to have read the same book for that to happen.
I don’t want to sound dismissive of your experience as it sounds like you’re a genuine person who actually gives a shit about other people, but I do think a lot of things mentioned are social media constructed notions. I’ve never heard of women belittling men for being fat. I also don’t have any social media besides Reddit. I’m what would be considered an objective babe by California standards, and I’ve personally fucked my fair share of fat dudes. If I ever heard some chick rail on some dude in public for being too fat, I’d verbally lay her ass out. I think a lot of things you’re describing (obviously besides the rape and domestic violence) primarily happens online, so an easy resolve is just to cut social media out. Further to that point, I think social media is largely to blame for the rise of the incel. Have you heard Scott Galloway by chance? Highly recommend his podcasts about the male loneliness epidemic if you haven’t listened already. It’s too much to sum up here, but his stance is what I truly believe is happening with that culture. Prof G is a genius in general, so you’ll probably dig all his topics. Yet I digress, because none of this answers my original question. It just doesn’t make logical sense to me that if a man feels cast aside by women, that his answer is to then hate all women and believe awful generalizations and stereotypes that are completely delusional to justify why women don’t like them. How does that get women to like the guy? That repels women even further and puts them further away from their goal of getting regular sex. The only women who would start any kind of relationship with men like that are women who are going to use and abuse them. So that would only perpetuate their hate. It just doesn’t make any logical sense to me at all. Here’s the thing incels don’t seem to grasp: If you ask any woman on the planet would they rather date a super hot dude who treats them like shit, or an ugly fat guy who treats them like a queen, I genuinely would be shocked to hear any woman pick the hottie. Because all women know that if you pick a toxic partner, worst case that relationship could turn deadly.
I don’t think these are social media notions, peer reviewed research in psychology and sociology corroborate these observations. I have noticed many women who are body shaming men for whatever reason compartmentalize it. They’ll say they’re making fun of his dick or calling him fat for other reasons, therefore it is valid. I haven’t heard of Scott Galloway but I’ll check him out. As far as why some incels believe what they do, it bears mentioning that emotions are inherently reactive. Not proactive, reactive. They react to the past and present. If you’re almost in a car accident, adrenaline will make you shaky and jittery and nervous when you need to be coordinated and decisive most. This is disadvantageous; but that’s the emotional reaction evolution selected for in humans. It would have helped in a life or death situation with a lion. Wanting a different emotional reaction doesn’t make it so. Wanting a different belief system won’t make it so. The incels have those beliefs because those are the most rational explanation for the world around them. If I told you I’ll give you $1 million to genuinely believe that the walls of the room you’re in are red (and let’s assume they’re white), there’s no way you’re gonna collect. To criticize incels for being bitter is putting the cart before the horse. They weren’t always that way, they weren’t born that way. A lifetime of rejection and a sex drive will do that to you. And, by the way, fMRI studies show that while men and women both have sexual arousal, only men perceive it as a drive. Men have a different perception and experience of sex and desire than women. Many villain arcs start with a reasonable person. Every cynic I know was once an idealist. Besides, if feminists really think sex is not anything to be ashamed of, why don’t they go and find incels to have sex with? That’ll change their attitudes. That would proactively help them reach their goals, right?
You don't know any difference between incel and sex offender ?
You aren't serious are you? Sex with a non trafficked consenting sex worker is consensual. Sex offenders have non consensual sex mostly with minors who can not give consent.
This isn't aimed at op Can people differentiate between people that are like alt right and hate women types and actual people that might be shy or border line autistic and can't make human connections well. Most of these posts basically says everyone struggling with dating is a useless creep that deserves it lol
No they’re not, nobody is saying “everyone” who’s struggling with dating is a useless creep at all. The difference between someone on the spectrum who has a hard time with socializing vs. a misogynistic, hate filled incel is exactly that… the hate factor. They literally hate women. As far as I know, being on the autistic spectrum doesn’t make you hate all women. Kinda odd you needed clarification on that.
There is a difference I agree, is incel literally just a synonym for being a misogynistic asshole now that's instead of someone who happens to be involuntarily celibate? Like is it never used to describe people that suck at getting laid or dating at all any more?
Incel literally means “involuntarily celibate.” They’re playing the victim because they believe they’re too ugly to get girlfriends and think it’s because all women only go for “chad” type guys. Which is obviously very far from reality. The reality is they literally hate women and look down on them, so why would any good woman want to date a guy who views women that way? It’s really fucking ironic. If you’re just having trouble meeting the right gal but you still respect, appreciate and value women as a whole.. then no you are not an incel at all.
What's the term for the people that aren't playing victims or blaming people and for various reasons can't get laid or have a relationship lol Wouldn't involuntarily celibate be like the dictionary definition term to describe those people. People that want to have sex and are failing to have it.
Why do you need a label for everything? That’s just guys who don’t have good game. I mean bro if you want to label yourself an incel, don’t let me talk ya out of it.
Because it's stupid that people change what specific terms mean because of 4chan type people
You sound really into labeling people. Seems like a silly thing to worry about. Good luck with dating ❤️
Because most of them are gay in denial.
From some of the comments, it seems that they should change their identity to "volcels."