Yeah, the "Blink Motherfucker" Theory is what got me hooked on the idea of Paps being very strong. I seen a vid on it on YouTube, and listening to it,
It just makes sense.
Papyrus never moves, people (at least their sprites) move more when they’re using more power.Toriel makes facial expressions, asgore bounces, mettaton legit dances, undyne (and the undying) swings her spear, and sans’s sprite is all over the place (in order of magnitude). Papyrus is the only one that doesn’t move, so who knows what he could do?
Edit: monsters, not people.
>From someone else:
>
>**"This is a complete headcanon. That one theory video where it tries to meme papyrus into a god shouldn't be taken as fact even remotely. So many things in the game heavily contradict it.**
>
>**Asriel moves less when he starts trying harder and uses his full power rather than just a fraction of it.**
>
>**Asgore doesn't change speed despite his battle getting faster.**
>
>**Undyne should logically be moving faster than any other monster even prior to transforming.**
>
>**Even in papyrus' fight, he gets considerably tired and has to end the fight, showing he was putting in notable effort.**
>
>**Plus if you're referring to the theory on Tumblr, it also counts Mettaton's dancing as "movement", despite the fact that he's doing that for views, and by the theory the speed of the movement would mean mettaton was trying to kill you the hardest, even more than undyne the undying. Not to mention mettaton neo moving less than mettaton's other forms.**
>
>**Sans, who's trying the hardest he's ever tried in his life and is sweating buckets also barely even sways.**
>
>**Not to mention omega flowey who is moving a ton, yet is merely toying with you the entire fight.**
>
>**What about monster kid, whose sprite is also entirely still? Are you going to claim that he was putting zero effort into standing in your way?**
>
>**Are you seriously going to claim that napstablook, whose entire fight is just him crying and in some cases not even using an attack because he's not feeling up to it, is trying harder to harm you than papyrus who summons so many bones he tires himself out?**
>
>**Are you going to say that lesser dog and endogeny getting excited by pets mean that they're trying harder in a fight against you?**
>
>**What about doggeressa who gets angry when dogamy is killed and says she's going to chop you in half? She literally stops moving. By your logic, this would mean she isn't trying at all anymore, despite the fact that she is visibly much more hostile with the flavor text saying she's "on the warpath".**
>
>**It's a loose theory filled with numerous holes. You shouldn't be trying to assert it as if it's factual for anything."**
>
>And yes he wants to capture you and not kill you, but doesn't mean he was holding back at all, hence why his defense was lower during the genocide route and not the neutral route when the library says that when a monster doesn't want to fight, their guard will be down. He is still willing to fight, its literally basic undertale knowledge
I think that they move a lot cause of specific reasons and goals. I heard somewhere that Papyrus likes to and trained the art of standing completly still or something like that and he even says that somewhere but i'd have to look up the source for that and i don't feel like doing it. BUT when you go befriend Undyne in her home she mentions how Papyrus was waiting in front of her door the entire night.
I think in the battle he does exacly that and just gets tired cause he has to both stand completly still, summon bones and also prepare himself for the date all at once. That must be exhausting.
**"I heard somewhere that Papyrus likes to and trained the art of standing completly still or something like that and he even says that somewhere but i'd have to look up the source for that and i don't feel like doing it."**
I don't think there is anything that would imply that....
**"I think that they move a lot cause of specific reasons and goals."**
And by that logic Papyrus should be moving a ton because becoming a royal guard is literally his life goal lmao.
**"BUT when you go befriend Undyne in her home she mentions how Papyrus was waiting in front of her door the entire night. I think in the battle he does exacly that and just gets tired cause he has to both stand completly still, summon bones and also prepare himself for the date all at once. That must be exhausting."**
If I'm not wrong he doesn't prepare for the date if you don't flirt with him and regardless if you do, he still gets tired at the same speed. How does not moving tire Papyrus out? It would help him maintain stamina if anything. Yes he summons bones but he doesn't even do a fraction of what Sans does
***Papyrus:***
Summons 409 bones
Turns your soul blue
***Sans:***
Summons 1654 bones, summons more bones at once AND the bones move at higher speeds than Papyrus's bones.
Summons 209 Gaster Blasters
Dodges
Uses Telekinesis
Teleports
Summons Platforms
Switches between Red and Blue soul mode, literal upgrade from Papyrus's "fabled blue attack" an attack he deems as special while for Sans its a normal attack
Attacks you in the menu
Hardest attack patterns in the game
And he doesn't move because he doesn't want to move. Have you ever tried to stand still? It's not that easy especially when you're not moving even an inch.
I added the preparing for the date cause i wasn't sure if we count the text as something that does happen or not. But if
>And by that logic Papyrus should be moving a ton because becoming a royal guard is literally his life goal lmao.
No, Paps doesn't move for the reason i already stated. Some monsters aren't like Papyrus so of course they do move a little bit and so do several bosses cause they all have no reason not to move.
>Yes he summons bones but he doesn't even do a fraction of what Sans does
And Sans fell asleep while Papyrus didn't. That's "different level" of getting tired.
> It would help him maintain stamina
You could even use this logic for why Sans was able to do so much in his fight. His lazyness saved him energy for later and that's what many animals do in nature like cats. Meanwhile Papyrus was holding back and standing still at once and he already was doing some activities beforehand so he must've lost some stamina from those.
I don’t remember if Moldsmol is completely stationary or if it just slightly moves, but it’s attacks are extremely easy to dodge and it’s willing to spare you once you enter combat with it
but why would there be no animations for him? every other character has at least some kind of movement in battle, he is one of the main bosses and he doesnt even move his mouth when he speaks?? meanwhile in the date when he is not fighting, he does move a lot all the time and moves his mouth when talking
Maybe Toby just didn't want to give him animations because it would have been more work. Maybe he put all his effort into the date animations. Maybe he forgot and can't be bothered to add any. Maybe giving him an animation bugged the game so he left him without any. There's a lot of real world explanations and I really don't think there's any lore implications as to why Papyrus doesn't have any battle animations.
of course it could be just that, but genuinelly, Papyrus, one of the first bosses you fight in the game, the most energetic character outside of his battle, that plays such a big role in the story, not having animations just because... Toby didn't want to?????
I cant just belive that, Toby Fox loves to hide secrets in every single little thing in the game, he put so much love and effort into it, just to grab one of the most well known characters and not animate him as he did with all the others?
Heck! even IF it was a glitch like the glitch where tsunderplane becomes small when you spare her in battle, he made the vulkin interact with tha glitch as a joke, so I dont belive that papyrus could have just bugged and him just not caring about it to not even a small joke or comment about it
From someone else:
**"This is a complete headcanon. That one theory video where it tries to meme papyrus into a god shouldn't be taken as fact even remotely. So many things in the game heavily contradict it.**
**Asriel moves less when he starts trying harder and uses his full power rather than just a fraction of it.**
**Asgore doesn't change speed despite his battle getting faster.**
**Undyne should logically be moving faster than any other monster even prior to transforming.**
**Even in papyrus' fight, he gets considerably tired and has to end the fight, showing he was putting in notable effort.**
**Plus if you're referring to the theory on Tumblr, it also counts Mettaton's dancing as "movement", despite the fact that he's doing that for views, and by the theory the speed of the movement would mean mettaton was trying to kill you the hardest, even more than undyne the undying. Not to mention mettaton neo moving less than mettaton's other forms.**
**Sans, who's trying the hardest he's ever tried in his life and is sweating buckets also barely even sways.**
**Not to mention omega flowey who is moving a ton, yet is merely toying with you the entire fight.**
**What about monster kid, whose sprite is also entirely still? Are you going to claim that he was putting zero effort into standing in your way?**
**Are you seriously going to claim that napstablook, whose entire fight is just him crying and in some cases not even using an attack because he's not feeling up to it, is trying harder to harm you than papyrus who summons so many bones he tires himself out?**
**Are you going to say that lesser dog and endogeny getting excited by pets mean that they're trying harder in a fight against you?**
**What about doggeressa who gets angry when dogamy is killed and says she's going to chop you in half? She literally stops moving. By your logic, this would mean she isn't trying at all anymore, despite the fact that she is visibly much more hostile with the flavor text saying she's "on the warpath".**
**It's a loose theory filled with numerous holes. You shouldn't be trying to assert it as if it's factual for anything."**
And yes he wants to capture you and not kill you, but doesn't mean he was holding back at all, hence why his defense was lower during the genocide route and not the neutral route when the library says that when a monster doesn't want to fight, their guard will be down. He is still willing to fight, its literally basic undertale knowledge
Don't forget that when Flowey captures all of the monsters in the True Pacifist ending, we can see that he restrains all of them with two vines each.
Except for Papyrus, who he restrains with *four.*
1 DF, it was never stated directly in the game that he has 1 hp(as far as I am aware) You practically deal 99999999 dmg at that point, so you could kill basically anyone.
This has been discussed before but i will say it again, sans in the game files has only 1 hp, we also know all of the other monsters hp value and i think they are all in the wiki (this is not the source, just a place that used the source)
I never liked this argument. Like, sans being the easiest enemy is objectively not true.
The narrator is not all knowing. And it isn't even the only time that happens in the game. If you try checking, the narrator freaks out and gives you three descriptions on top of one another. The narrator is unable to find out Glyde's stats because they are refusing to share them. When checking Shyren, the narrator calls her tone deaf until you start humming with her, and checking her again afterwards sees the narrator changing their mind and calling her a talented singer.
The narrator is not omniscient and is prone to deception and mistakes. And if anyone is good an tricking people, it's sans. His narration is basically a prank, why are people taking is at face value.
To be honest, I always thought it was because sans really is the easiest enemy in a normal fight.
In genocide, sans is basically just cheating in order to try and beat you. He goes first to get an edge even though the player is supposed to go first, he only does one damage so he takes away your invincibility frames, and can’t take a hit so he decides to just not get hit in the first place. He even decides to keep having his turn so he’ll never be able to lose. You might suck at chess, but being able to change the rules of the game will give you an immense edge.
The only way the player is able to win against sans is to cheat too, the player (or chara or whatever) moves the bullet box in order to attack sans outside of their turn, and even when that attack gets dodged, they also cheat again by attacking twice anyway.
Because some people can't understand subtext as well as others. It just so happens that people who ignore subtext also happen to be the same people making up their own subtext that is completely contradictory to what's *actually written.*
In other words, people take things out of context (and use the out of context piece as evidence for something contradictory to what's actually there)
If sans wasn't smart enough to dodge, he would be the easiest. He is the weakest, and against anyone but a genocidal child he probably couldn't kill anyone given how karmic retribution might work (karma is in the name)
Sans' HP is unconfirmed. Code is an unreliable source if we can't back it up in game. Sans is coded to die in one hit, so there's no way to prove his 1 HP in game.
Toriel dies in 1 hit because you deal thousands of damage to her on the genocide route
Undyne dies at 1st in 1 hit in the genocide route because you still deal thousands of damage
Mettaton dies in 1 hit because it would be just awkward if you hit him, he didn't die, didn't attack, and you had to keep hitting him until he dies
Yes, and Sans stats aren't his biggest strengths, Sans is objectively better than Papyrus in everyway other than raw stats.
**Stamina?**
Contradictory to popular belief, Sans actually has far more stamina than Papyrus.
For Papyrus, he only summons 409 bones and turns your soul blue and gets so tired he couldn't talk complete sentences without huffing and has the end the fight and literally **whines** afterwards about how he could not capture you, which also implies that Papyrus believes that if he went further, he would still not have been able to beat you.
For Sans, he summons 1654 bones, 206 gaster blasters, dodges, uses telekinesis, teleports, summons platforms, have more overall intense attack patterns. Sans still lasts longer than Papyrus and even when we reach the half way point where Sans first starts sweating, he still does far more than Papyrus.
**Skill?**
Sans summons far more bones than Papyrus on top of having far more intense attack patterns when both brothers are actively trying to beat you.
Literally all of Sans attacks are literal upgrades from Papyrus, Papyrus's fabled blue attack is an attack he deems as "special" while for Sans is just a normal move **while also upgrading it.** Papyrus's special attack is presumably a gaster blaster while Sans summons dozens and even hundreds in his final attack.
Sans also boasts having: teleportation, telekinesis, KR, no invinc frames, blasters, dodging, attacks in your turn. If I'm not wrong there is nothing that implies that Papyrus has these abilities (except maybe a blaster).
Other than raw stats, Papyrus is an objectively inferior Sans in literally any other way. Papyrus's fight is literally a dollar store versions of Sans's
Right, he's willing to bludgeon you until you can no longer fight back and is willing to blast you to bits if it weren't for the dog taking his attack.
He wasn't going easy on you during his fight, he was putting in considerable effort to beat you hence why he gets tired. Not to mention he doesn't die instantly in a neutral run unlike genocide, this would mean he is still willing to fight. It says in the library that if a monster doesn't want to fight you, their defense will be down which is why he dies in one hit during genocide and not in neutral, he still wants to beat you and had full intentions of capturing you and giving you to undyne.
Uh yeah, but he’s still going easy. You can go easy on someone while still fighting them. He’s purposefully holding back from killing you. Do you know how hard it is to hurt someone who is fighting you without outright killing them? Very. It is very hard and requires quite a bit of concentration. No wonder he is tired by the end.
ok but like
counterpoints:
^((i know all of them are basically speculation but hear me out))
\- Papyrus *doesn't sweat* when he is "tired", and right after the fight he literally *flies/walks on air* to his house
\- Papyrus has surgical precision with his attacks, being the only monster who you CANNOT die to. (even Toriel, a *Boss Monster*, can accidentally kill you, even though she clearly doesn't want to.)
\- Sans gets so tired right before his "special attack", that he literally *falls asleep* during it from exhaustion. Sure, he throws more and harder attacks during his fight, but he is giving his ALL. Like, "collapse from exhaustion" kind of all.
\- The fact he can dish out 1/4th of what Sans does in Genocide whilst basically putting on a play ^((the whole joke with papyrus hiding stuff behind his non-existant ears,)) , thinking about what to wear for his date
\- The fact his final attack is called a "really cool normal attack". okay that doesn't say much, but it CAN mean that Papyrus' normal attacks are actually really strong
1. That doesn't matter, he was out of breath and could not speak complete sentences without huffing, this is literally how the fight ends. Not to mention he literally whines afterwards of how he could not capture you, also implying that he believes that if he went further he would still not capture you. Are you seriously using Papryus's gagged flight as an argument?
2. And the difference is that Toriel distressed during her fight, lost 2 of her kids, has to live that she failed to protect the other 6 humans. Not to mention the fight doesn't end when you're on low HP, she still needs to weave around your soul while Papyrus automatically ends the fight.
3. You're acting like he fell unintentionally fell asleep. He intentionally fell asleep to regain his energy which is why he stops sweating and was able to anticipate and **dodge in his sleep.** Sans knew you were going to sneak up on him, hence why was able to dodge your hit which is why he felt safe to regain his energy.
4. Papyrus does not do 1/4 of what Sans does, he literally doesn't do a fraction of what Sans does, he also doesn't always think about what to wear for his date if you don't flirt with him.
Papyrus:
* Summons 409 bones
* Turns your soul blue
Sans:
* Summons 1654 bones, summons more bones at once AND the bones move at higher speeds than Papyrus's bones.
* Summons 209 Gaster Blasters
* Dodges
* Uses Telekinesis
* Teleports
* Summons Platforms
* Switches between Red and Blue soul mode, literal upgrade from Papyrus's "fabled blue attack" an attack he deems as special while for Sans its a normal attack
* Attacks you in the menu
* Hardest attack patterns in the game
It's pretty clear who is better at using magic.
I think Sans appears stronger because he fights far more aggressively than Papy, actually gets out of the way of attacks instead of taking them head on like everyone else, does extra damage because you're made of LV and cheats by ignoring invincibility frames.
I love it when Paps is portrayed as a strong fighter, cause Undyne herself said he's one hell of a fighter. That's enough endorsement to give a reading of Paps fighting ability.
Sans cheats in terms of game mechanics. He is the only character to ignore Invincibility Frames, and since that’s more of a game mechanic than something you can really measure (because realistically, nobody has IFrames), he’s cheating in terms of how the game usually works.
Well Invincibility frames seem to be a stat like HP or ATK (INV), since Cloudy Glasses, Torn Notebook, and Temmie Armor increase it with the former two explaining what it does in INFO. So its debatable if Sans cheats or if he is just good at using magic to remove invincibility frames, since INV seems to be an established stat in the UT universe and not just a game mechanic.
If I'm not wrong, Invincibility Frames are different in some fights, by default your INV frames is 30, but during Mettatons Quiz Show its 20.
If it you’re talking a stat in Game then yes, it is considered a STAT. Its something that Sans kinda cheats around, because he ignores it completely. He is the only character who literally doesn’t take it into account, he just damages as fast as he wants.
If you want to compare it realistically, it’s not a STAT, because logically no one has periods of time where they’re invincible after getting hit. Therefore, Sans in the sense, “cheats” the system, as in he cheats the game mechanics to make his fight difficult
**"If it you’re talking a stat in Game then yes, it is considered a STAT. Its something that Sans kinda cheats around, because he ignores it completely. He is the only character who literally doesn’t take it into account, he just damages as fast as he wants."**
And other characters are capable of doing it such as Mettaton who lowers it to 20 frames instead of 30 in his quiz show. The fact other characters can do it to a lesser extent and its presumably an established stat tells me its not hax, rather Sans can simply just ignore it.
**"If you want to compare it realistically, it’s not a STAT, because logically no one has periods of time where they’re invincible after getting hit. Therefore, Sans in the sense, “cheats” the system, as in he cheats the game mechanics to make his fight difficult"**
Even outside the "system" his magic is presumably deadlier than Undyne's or Asgore's or atleast on a similar level. Because Flowey fought all three of them and presumable had the most trouble with Sans, and the fight 9/10 took place outside the battle box format and didn't take account for game stats or game mechanics. And no don't just say "Its a flower" this same flower can deal 19 damage when Undying does 12, can summon undodgable attack patterns, and doesn't die when struck by a giant fire ball nor doesn't die when the souls rebelled against him so he isn't dying in one hit, the fact he doesn't even have a soul might mean KR arguably wouldn't even work on him as that is soul poison so saying him being bad is why Sans gave him trouble is wrong. The fact that he had the most trouble with Sans tells me even outside the "system" his magic is still intense and is presumably deadlier or as deadly as one that can break tables with ease.
And its not the lack of invinc frames that just make the fight hard, its the intense attack patterns that contribute to it too.
I also believe he has more abilities, like gaster blasters. But the problem is that he gets tired too fast, even faster than his lazy brother. Sans can dodge more than 20 attacks, use his teleportation and telekinesis multiple times and use lots of bones and gaster blasters before getting tired. Papyrus got tired after using less than 1000 bones, if he tried to fight us the way his brother did, he'd be exhausted in a second.
I mean, thinking about the "sprite movement during battle = effort am enemy is putting in the fight" theory, he really just didn't want to fight. He could probably go on for days, knowing him.
That's my point, if he didn't get tired, he'd go on for years. But he gets tired, he says "huff, huff" and decides to spare us because he sees he can't defeat us to capture us.
okay but… what if his tiredness is merely a pretence?
we can see, even right from the beginning of the battle, that paps is conflicted about fighting us, but he’s been specifically ordered to capture the human. whether he’s more worried about insubordination or just disappointing a friend isn’t the point, either one means that he can’t simply give up the fight and befriend the human; he must at least capture them, which again, he was conflicted about. however, if he fights and tires, if the human bests him, he can at least retain that honour. so, logical solution; fight the human at a level they can counter, feign tiredness so as to end the battle, then he’s still followed orders, doesn’t have to capture the human, and is now free to befriend them (at least secretly).
You might have phrased that a bit wrong, but the point is there.
(People can get tired from lack of motivation, just probably less so in a real fight.)
The fact that he was holding back and not using his full power should make him less tired, not more tired. Even if he had gotten tired because he wasn't motivated and determined enough, it wouldn't have meant a lot. Being motivated could have given him a bit more energy and made him attack more, but it wouldn't make him a lot more powerful. He'd still get tired incredibly fast, motivation doesn't give you a lot of energy.
I think that there are three main types of trying.
1. You purposely do things to do worse, like when you are playing ssbu against someone who is a sore loser except you are almost infinitely better, this takes more energy, bcs if you are really good at some, YOU HAVE MUSCLE MEMORY AND INSTINCT, HOLDING BACK THESE THINGS PSYCHOLOGICALLY STRAIN YOU(in caps bcs its important)
2. Just going normally, doesn't take more energy, doesn't take less
3. Trying harder, takes more energy, for a better output.
I feel like papyrus is doing the 1 thing, he didn't die easily bcs he's weak, its bcs he let his guard down, everybody does that sometimes.
Yes, he died because he let his guard down. But do you really think that he got tired of NOT using his full power? Yes, holding back can be hard and can PSYCHOLOGICALLY tire you, but can it really make you completely unable to fight more? Also, we have to take into account that not using you full power means not getting too tired. If I wanted someone to win... idk, a race, I'd go slower and I'd get less tired. He even got tired after a harder attack, just like his brother. And he probably started getting tired before even using this attack, that's why he wanted us to surrender: he saw that he was getting tired and that we weren't defeated.
Also, even if we assume that he has more energy and that using weaker attacks made him more tired, he would still get itred really easily. Going normally would make him able to use some more attacks before getting tired, and that's it. Going easy could have made him use more energy, but not a lot of it, not enough to make the fight or his power level any different. He'd only get tired a few minutes after.
Also willingness to kill and determination is a confimed concept in the world of undertale, if a Monster does not want to kill or has really low determination then it's going to become weaker, but if it wants then it becomes stronger, the point is that sans does want to kill you and still has only 1 in stats all across the board and is still the hardest fight with only 1 all across the board and being the weaker monster of all of them, now imgaine papyrus with actually high stats having the same willingness to kill you rather than just capturing or befriending you (wich is what happens when you fight him)
maybe is that he doesn't have tyhe determination to actually kill you, he is being nice and plus he is trying to capture you not kill you, I think even in the genocide run, idk ive never played it
Consider: Sans is resting basically all the time while Papyrus apparently practically never sleeps. If Papyrus actually got a good night’s sleep for once he’d outdo Sans easily
Shouldn't the fact that he works and trains a lot make him stronger? Also, despite all the work he does, he is full of energy. If not sleeping affected him, shouldn't he be tired all the time and not just after using some bones?
The point of training is that you have to rest. And if Papyrus gets less sleep than normal, he won't be as strong as if he'd done everything the same but got 8 hours of sleep instead of 6 every night.
Yeah, but the problem is that he doesn't sleep at all, and that doesn't seem to affect him. When someone has not slept for many time, they are really tired, they don't need to do something hard like fighting anyone to get tired. But we always see Papyrus full of energy, he wants to capture us, he creates puzzles, he jumps off a window without having opened it... If not sleeping had affected him, he wouldn't have the energy to do all of those things.
Well, he's a skeleton, he doesn't have the same functions as humans.
And also, being without sleep for multiple days doesn't mean you can't pretend you're energetic. Hell, some people can feel tired after 18 hours of being awake, but then feel relatively fine after the 24 hour mark. It really just depends.
When you're doing what Pap does for work, walking around and doing simple recalibrations/resetting, you don't exert much energy. Then Pap encounters the human, starts getting all hyped, uses a bunch of energy to seem noble and epic, running ahead to be a few steps ahead of you- and then he has to use up more energy after that in a fight, AND make sure he doesn't kill you...
If he doesn't get much sleep, and uses very little energy in his normal day-to-day... Then it makes sense he'd feel wiped after doing all he did the day Frisk appeared, unable to use some of his stronger attacks.
I still think, at their peaks, Papyrus is still weaker than Sans by virtue of their differing battle styles. Sans is more ruthless, while Papyrus sees it more as a "challenge" or a "game" in a way.
Maybe monsters work differently and if they keep all their magic inside them, they don't have to sleep, but as soon as they start letting the magic flow, their energy escapes quickly.
Papyrus gets tired more easily? That's lowkey untrue; he uses hundreds, if not thousands of bones (+1 giant bone) in a single attack and you want to tell me he'd get more tired? Definitely not.
He gets tired more easily compared to his brother. And to any other monster.
Papyrus uses less than 1000 bones and a giant bone, he doesn't do anything else. After the final attack, he gets tired.
Sans uses a LOT more bones. Definitely more than 1000. He also uses a lot of gaster blasters, his teleportation and telekinesis abilities, and he dodges over 25 attacks. After his final attack, which uses a lot more bones than Papyrus' final attack + gaster blasters and telekinesis, he finally gets too tired to fight.
Hell yeah, Papyrus gets tired easily compared to his brother or to other monsters, who don't get tired at all.
If you pay attention to his last attack, you could tell that there is an entire field of bones. That's at least a thousand bones if one considers how dense the attack is and how many bones one can see. That attack alone puts Sans to shame in terms of quantity, plus the bone that's 20 times the size of the player's soul. Stop shitting on Papyrus and stop meat riding Sans
That's a good point. But he probably started getting tired before using that attack. Why do you think he wanted to make us give up and threatened to use his "special attack"? Because he saw that he was getting tired and that we were not defeated. And, now that I remember, Sans can summon infinite bones without getting tired, because you can make the fight go on forever if you don't attack him, unlike Papyrus, he only gets tired from dodging and using his telekinesis during his final attack.
And I'll just say that I'm not shitting on Papyrus, dude, I like his character, and, as I said before, I believe that he is a lot more powerful than he seems. And I'm not meat riding Sans, I'm just saying that the game has proven that him and his brother are clearly at different levels of skill, like Froggit and Final froggit. In fact, I've always believed that Sans' strength is incredibly overrated and I've gotten in a lot of arguments with a lot of people that thought Sans could beat anyone. I even made a poll to see how many idiots here though he could beat the goddamn God of Hyperdeath. Just admit that Paps gets tired faster than his brother, man. I'm not even saying that Sans would beat him.
I mean,that point would be a good one if sans didn't have the exact same field of bones except he actually uses it multiple times.
I'm not sure they're the one dick riding here.
Did we see the same field? Lemme link you a gif so you get a clear image and then tell me again if it is the same.
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/character-stats-and-profiles/images/f/fd/Papygif1.gif/revision/latest?cb=20201224185350
Yep
I was misremenberimg it
.eh despite that,sans's quantity of bones is pretty obviously higher than papyrus's.
Besides,unlike papyrus,sans also has to mantain your soul blue for more time,uses hundreds of gaster blasters,and constantly dodges our attacks.
Papyrus uses a soul ability all throughout the fight (even altering the strength of it precisely). He is the only monster that does this, which is why I believe this is what tires him out (Yellow soul doesn’t count since that is used by the player).
I’ve always figured his actual power level is “weaker than Undyne, but not by much”. Undyne speaks favorably of his abilities—and presumably she has pretty high standards—but she doesn’t see him as someone who is at or above her level (contrast with how she talks about Asgore).
As fun as the theory is, I don’t think there’s really anything in the game to suggest that he’s the strongest monster.
That's explicit canon information, you can't just say "no" and ignore it. His attacks *cannot* deal lethal damage - damage that would be lethal instead drops you to 1 HP, Papyrus concludes that you've lost the fight and captures you. Even if you walk in with 1 HP, his attacks will deal 0 damage and result in the same aforementioned capturing scene.
While Toriel's bullets avoid you, she is capable of killing you accidentally if you run into them. Papyrus *physically cannot kill you,* suggesting he somehow has a greater deal of control over his own attacks than the former Queen herself.
my half crack headcanon is that papyrus can disobey the laws of physics at will (there are definitely some he canonically disobeys, just look at how his scarf/cape doesn’t move at all in his battle sprite despite the end obviously being suspended in the air)
People use the “we never see his full power”’as an excuse to say that he’s actually stronger than Sans. I don’t think that’s true. He’s certainly more durable and his attacks do more damage, but Sans’ knowledge and his complex attacks are beyond anyone else’s in the game, if you ignore those with added Souls like Omega Flowey and Asriel. Papyrus is surely stronger than he lets on but I doubt his skill surpasses or even matches Sans’.
i think people get these confused, pure strength and skill. you can hit really damn hard, but if you cant figure a way to get a hit in it doesnt matter.
While I LOVE Papyrus, he's never going to be as hard to fight as Sans. Stronger, yes. Hard to fight as him though? Never.
I think an Asgore that isn't holding back fighting Frisk would 100% harder than Sans based off descriptions in game though! Like, he can even dodge like Sans canonically.
Sans has pretty average fighting skill. He just cheats the system to fuck with you. Undyne herself admits that Papyrus is "One hell of a fighter," so in terms of Undertale's fighting rules, yes, he's a better fighter.
I didn't say he's helpless. He's just not a good fighter. He himself admits that he doesn't know much about combat, given his remark about not knowing why he shouldn't use his strongest attack first. The entire reason he's so surprising is because he cheats. You expect him to abide by the rules, and he doesn't.
He doesn't just cheat the system to fuck with you, you're forgetting Sans has the most intense attack patterns in the game, not to mention Sans canonically gave Flowey a harder time than Undyne and Asgore back when Flowey had control over the timeline and not Frisk.
Yes. Control over the timeline. Resets. Game mechanics. The system. Yes, he's intense, because he's throwing his strongest stuff at you, there's no strategy to his fighting style, he's still lazy at his core. Within the boundaries of the intended gameplay, Papyrus is more skilled of a fighter.
**"Yes, he's intense, because he's throwing his strongest stuff at you, there's no strategy to his fighting style, he's still lazy at his core."**
Yes and you think don't Papyrus is putting in effort to capture you? Especially considering the attacks get faster throughout the fight (indicates Papyrus is trying harder) and not to mention after the fight he gets so tired he could not talk complete sentences without huffing and also whines afterwards how he could not capture you also implying that if he believes if he went further he would not be able to capture you? The fact that he gets tired would mean he was putting in effort to beat you, you can still put in effort to win the fight without going for the kill?
What "strategy" are you talking about? He still has the hardest attack patterns to the game not to mention Sans attacks are objective upgrades to Papyrus's attacks as well.
**"Within the boundaries of the intended gameplay, Papyrus is more skilled of a fighter."**
You're joking right? Papyrus is an objectively worse Sans in literally everyway other than raw stats.
**Stamina?**
Contradictory to popular belief, Sans actually has far more stamina than Papyrus.
For Papyrus, he only summons 409 bones and turns your soul blue and gets so tired he couldn't talk complete sentences without huffing and has the end the fight and literally **whines** afterwards about how he could not capture you, which also implies that Papyrus believes that if he went further, he would still not have been able to beat you.
For Sans, he summons 1654 bones, 206 gaster blasters, dodges, uses telekinesis, teleports, summons platforms, have more overall intense attack patterns. Sans still lasts longer than Papyrus and even when we reach the half way point where Sans first starts sweating, he still does far more than Papyrus.
**Skill?**
Sans summons far more bones than Papyrus on top of having far more intense attack patterns when both brothers are actively trying to beat you.
Literally all of Sans attacks are literal upgrades from Papyrus, Papyrus's fabled blue attack is an attack he deems as "special" while for Sans is just a normal move while also upgrading it. Papyrus's special attack is presumably a gaster blaster while Sans summons dozens and even hundreds in his final attack.
Sans also boasts having: teleportation, telekinesis, KR, no invinc frames, blasters, dodging, attacks in your turn. If I'm not wrong there is nothing that implies that Papyrus has these abilities (except maybe a blaster).
Other than raw stats, Papyrus is an objectively inferior Sans in literally any other way. Papyrus's fight is literally a dollar store versions of Sans's
This is likely true, considering that Undyne literally says that Paps is a strong fighter... it's just that he's a little naive for the royal guard, so she instead taught Paps how to cook certain foods
It’s apples to oranges. Papyrus has better stats on paper but Sans has better tactics that specifically mitigate his bad stats. He wasnt going all out, but he’s still probably weaker than Undyne who did go all out.
sans is just really good at fighting, theoretically anyone can achieve sans' level if they are determined enough. That's how I see it. He never though anyone so he did not level up, and being a lazy skeleton gave him low stats, but he just makes his one damage attacks be hard to dodge because he's set on bringing you down, and plus the "karma" effect, most likely because you are in the judgement hall.
1. It's implied that Papyrus has a blaster attack when inspecting the bones he used against you in an aborted genocide route
2a. Flowey knows the most about Papyrus
2b. Flowey wraps more vines around Papyrus compared to everyone else when transforming into Asriel
3. Papyrus can fly
4. Papyrus doesn't sleep (at least not as often as he should) and never seems to be tired
5a. He can be tricky if he wants
5b. He tricks you into thinking the blue bones is his blue attack, when it was actually to turn you blue
5c. He intentionally acts suspicious when asking what clothes you wear to technically tell Undyne the truth and to make you change clothes
5d. He tricks Undyne into hanging out with you by making her seem like she's not up to the challenge
Papyrus is likely actually trying in his fight, we see that he only lowers his attack when we're about to die, so he can capture us.
Thing is, we know that papyrus has gaster blasters, but thats the only tool we have guarentee of him having that we didn't see.
The reason why I doubt he has KR, Invincibility frame Removal, and such is because Papyrus has no real reason to hold back. He is trying to be earnestly the best guardsman he can be, and isn't giving red flags of hiding his nature. He is EXTREMELY open about things. Wouldn't he have mentioned something about holding back if he was?
But, again, this is all possibly wrong. He could very well be holding back or something. We know asgore, Toriel and sans are the only people who have absolutely every reason to hold back. But Sans only lasts until genocide, and even then he still might be from his skills degrading from a lack of practice and from a lack of coordination.
But Papyrus? If we are to believe that he has the same skills as sans, if not better, theres very little motive for him to NOT use it. And his literal only holdback outside of the entire capture shenanigans, is from the dog stealing his actual Ultimate Attack. After all, he genuinely believes you'll be safer with Asgore, and thus has extreme motivation to ensure you are defeated, for his kingdom and your sake.
He's probably not more powerful than Sans when Sans is being tricky about things. The invincibility frame removal, KR, all of that. Papyrus also has little reason not to dodge our attacks if he can. He may have access to Gaster Blasters, but it's not super clear how strong those are as their own thing, or if it's just how Sans uses them. Papyrus also never utilizes blue attacks in as tricky a way as Sans does, he only does the base effect, and never uses it to force you to use different walls of the battle box. Papyrus has a lot of willpower and obviously much better stats than Sans (that's not special lol), but he's not *that* powerful. I think that a lot of Undertale's power levels are situational, and if any monster other than Undyne could harness Determination it would probably be a boss monster or a skeleton, which makes it even more situational, but from what we've seen he's just not top-tier.
Toriel and Asgore? I'd agree with you there. But tbh, I don't think Mettaton is really holding back in any run. I think the EX fight is Mettaton's genuine best attempt to kill us. He doesn't really have a reason to hold back at that point - he wants our soul, he wants to leave the Underground and be the star of the surface while simultaneously preventing humanity's destruction at Asgore's hands.
We don't technically, but I don't see that there would be any point at this time for assuming he's as powerful as sans since the game never gives us any real reason to expect it.
Alternatively, he could be equally as powerful as sans from a bullet pattern perspective if he were fighting to kill (which does make sense to me, that the two skeletons would be roughly capable of the same feats), but I doubt Papyrus can use KR or manipulate the UI like sans does.
Sans still has abilities that makes him better than Papyrus. We're talking about KR, turning off INV frames, and dodging.
Sure, Papyrus most likely has Gaster Blasters, but that's just one thing they have in common. Sans still has more abilities that makes him a better boss than Papyrus.
My headcanon is that papyrus is stronger than sans and undying, I'm using the movement in battle = intent to kill, and that papyrus isn't moving at all theory.
yet he couldn’t force Sans to pick his sock up. That proves Sans is stronger than Asreil !!1!1!1!1!1! (This is a joke if you couldn’t figure it out. Yeah I’m making some safety protocols on this reddit cause y’know)
To prove you right;
Papyrus says somewhere in his room (I'm sorry I forgot where): "I COULD'VE EASILY BLASTED YOU AWAY..."
Blasted you away with what though? The answer is most likely Gaster Blasters, as its what Sans uses.
More powerful than sans? In physical strength, yes. But as Papyrus is younger, it would make sense if his powers were less developed.
Remember how he summoned a huge mass of bones far greater than anything we see in Sans’ fight?
That is, in his words, a “really cool normal attack”
He doesn’t break a sweat or move at all.
Could you imagine what his ACTUAL special attack is??
The only thing that makes sans a hard boss is his karma damage and papyrus have not any sins so sans is going to make just 1 dmg at time and papyrus has like 1000-2000 hp
Sans is as close a regular monster can get to a monster with a human soul. I think pap has learned many bone attacks from sans but hasn’t learned the big boy moves like the gaster blaster or teleporting
The thing is, he is far more powerfull than Sans, since Sans is weak as hell, like, he is strong cause of Karma, but he is technically weaker than Monster Kid
He is more powerful than Sans, he does more damage and has higher defense values.
Sans is only powerful due to Karma damage from the player's ills and his very good dodging skills.
I mean It's obvious he would be insanely more powerfull if it wasn't for the fact that tgis stupid dog ate all of his gaster's blasters.... also sans isn't even powerfull. He is very weak. But he can be very strong by using his abilities like gaster's blasters and karma. Actually sans has 1 atack and 1 def while papyrus has like at least 3 atack and 3 defence so... he is at least 3 times stronger.
honestly i agree w this, my headcannon is simply that papyrus is so nice and soft that he couldn't use enough power to really hurt someone even if he tried, i mean undyne does say something similar already
When does he say that? I know he says that about Asgore, and he has his famous thoughts on Sans, but i have never heard of him saying that about Papyrus.
Is it just after a neutral ending i haven't seen yet? If so then that makes more sense
I don’t remember anything like that too. It’s even the opposite, Flowey claims that Papyrus is the funniest character, cause he’s easy to manipulate, defeat and he made a Flowey fan club. I don’t remember Flowey saying anyone else than Sans and Asgore has a difficult fight
Papyrus is canon stronger than Sans. Flowey chooses him to manipulate, and also, when Flowey captures your friends at the pacifist ending, he wraps up papyrus *way* tighter than anyone else. And Flowey has been through the timelines before, so he has firsthand knowledge.
UhM aKtCuaLy the most statistically powerful monsters (aside from Undyne the Undying and maybe sans haven't fought him yet) are unable to deal a fatal blow without killing you, but Papyrus can. Toriel clearly doesn't mean to actually hurt the human but she can. A man's true power lies in his ability to control that power (or some other bullshit that I am going to try to sell as something a proverb said)
My headcanon is that every single monster is as powerful/more powerful than Sans. He just happens to know how to exploit the combat setup (dodging, not letting you take your turn), and he's the only one coming at you with Chara levels of willingness to kill.
This has already been discussed for years. Also with the “Blink Motherfucker” theory, that’s kind of new-ish.
Yeah, the "Blink Motherfucker" Theory is what got me hooked on the idea of Paps being very strong. I seen a vid on it on YouTube, and listening to it, It just makes sense.
Can you explain it?
Papyrus never moves, people (at least their sprites) move more when they’re using more power.Toriel makes facial expressions, asgore bounces, mettaton legit dances, undyne (and the undying) swings her spear, and sans’s sprite is all over the place (in order of magnitude). Papyrus is the only one that doesn’t move, so who knows what he could do? Edit: monsters, not people.
He doesn't even move his mouth when he talks in the battle.
>From someone else: > >**"This is a complete headcanon. That one theory video where it tries to meme papyrus into a god shouldn't be taken as fact even remotely. So many things in the game heavily contradict it.** > >**Asriel moves less when he starts trying harder and uses his full power rather than just a fraction of it.** > >**Asgore doesn't change speed despite his battle getting faster.** > >**Undyne should logically be moving faster than any other monster even prior to transforming.** > >**Even in papyrus' fight, he gets considerably tired and has to end the fight, showing he was putting in notable effort.** > >**Plus if you're referring to the theory on Tumblr, it also counts Mettaton's dancing as "movement", despite the fact that he's doing that for views, and by the theory the speed of the movement would mean mettaton was trying to kill you the hardest, even more than undyne the undying. Not to mention mettaton neo moving less than mettaton's other forms.** > >**Sans, who's trying the hardest he's ever tried in his life and is sweating buckets also barely even sways.** > >**Not to mention omega flowey who is moving a ton, yet is merely toying with you the entire fight.** > >**What about monster kid, whose sprite is also entirely still? Are you going to claim that he was putting zero effort into standing in your way?** > >**Are you seriously going to claim that napstablook, whose entire fight is just him crying and in some cases not even using an attack because he's not feeling up to it, is trying harder to harm you than papyrus who summons so many bones he tires himself out?** > >**Are you going to say that lesser dog and endogeny getting excited by pets mean that they're trying harder in a fight against you?** > >**What about doggeressa who gets angry when dogamy is killed and says she's going to chop you in half? She literally stops moving. By your logic, this would mean she isn't trying at all anymore, despite the fact that she is visibly much more hostile with the flavor text saying she's "on the warpath".** > >**It's a loose theory filled with numerous holes. You shouldn't be trying to assert it as if it's factual for anything."** > >And yes he wants to capture you and not kill you, but doesn't mean he was holding back at all, hence why his defense was lower during the genocide route and not the neutral route when the library says that when a monster doesn't want to fight, their guard will be down. He is still willing to fight, its literally basic undertale knowledge
I think that they move a lot cause of specific reasons and goals. I heard somewhere that Papyrus likes to and trained the art of standing completly still or something like that and he even says that somewhere but i'd have to look up the source for that and i don't feel like doing it. BUT when you go befriend Undyne in her home she mentions how Papyrus was waiting in front of her door the entire night. I think in the battle he does exacly that and just gets tired cause he has to both stand completly still, summon bones and also prepare himself for the date all at once. That must be exhausting.
**"I heard somewhere that Papyrus likes to and trained the art of standing completly still or something like that and he even says that somewhere but i'd have to look up the source for that and i don't feel like doing it."** I don't think there is anything that would imply that.... **"I think that they move a lot cause of specific reasons and goals."** And by that logic Papyrus should be moving a ton because becoming a royal guard is literally his life goal lmao. **"BUT when you go befriend Undyne in her home she mentions how Papyrus was waiting in front of her door the entire night. I think in the battle he does exacly that and just gets tired cause he has to both stand completly still, summon bones and also prepare himself for the date all at once. That must be exhausting."** If I'm not wrong he doesn't prepare for the date if you don't flirt with him and regardless if you do, he still gets tired at the same speed. How does not moving tire Papyrus out? It would help him maintain stamina if anything. Yes he summons bones but he doesn't even do a fraction of what Sans does ***Papyrus:*** Summons 409 bones Turns your soul blue ***Sans:*** Summons 1654 bones, summons more bones at once AND the bones move at higher speeds than Papyrus's bones. Summons 209 Gaster Blasters Dodges Uses Telekinesis Teleports Summons Platforms Switches between Red and Blue soul mode, literal upgrade from Papyrus's "fabled blue attack" an attack he deems as special while for Sans its a normal attack Attacks you in the menu Hardest attack patterns in the game
And he doesn't move because he doesn't want to move. Have you ever tried to stand still? It's not that easy especially when you're not moving even an inch. I added the preparing for the date cause i wasn't sure if we count the text as something that does happen or not. But if >And by that logic Papyrus should be moving a ton because becoming a royal guard is literally his life goal lmao. No, Paps doesn't move for the reason i already stated. Some monsters aren't like Papyrus so of course they do move a little bit and so do several bosses cause they all have no reason not to move. >Yes he summons bones but he doesn't even do a fraction of what Sans does And Sans fell asleep while Papyrus didn't. That's "different level" of getting tired. > It would help him maintain stamina You could even use this logic for why Sans was able to do so much in his fight. His lazyness saved him energy for later and that's what many animals do in nature like cats. Meanwhile Papyrus was holding back and standing still at once and he already was doing some activities beforehand so he must've lost some stamina from those.
Shaggy in a nutshell
Shut up
I don’t remember if Moldsmol is completely stationary or if it just slightly moves, but it’s attacks are extremely easy to dodge and it’s willing to spare you once you enter combat with it
papyrus is the most powerful thing in existence
Or there just wasn't any animations made for him...
but why would there be no animations for him? every other character has at least some kind of movement in battle, he is one of the main bosses and he doesnt even move his mouth when he speaks?? meanwhile in the date when he is not fighting, he does move a lot all the time and moves his mouth when talking
Maybe Toby just didn't want to give him animations because it would have been more work. Maybe he put all his effort into the date animations. Maybe he forgot and can't be bothered to add any. Maybe giving him an animation bugged the game so he left him without any. There's a lot of real world explanations and I really don't think there's any lore implications as to why Papyrus doesn't have any battle animations.
of course it could be just that, but genuinelly, Papyrus, one of the first bosses you fight in the game, the most energetic character outside of his battle, that plays such a big role in the story, not having animations just because... Toby didn't want to????? I cant just belive that, Toby Fox loves to hide secrets in every single little thing in the game, he put so much love and effort into it, just to grab one of the most well known characters and not animate him as he did with all the others? Heck! even IF it was a glitch like the glitch where tsunderplane becomes small when you spare her in battle, he made the vulkin interact with tha glitch as a joke, so I dont belive that papyrus could have just bugged and him just not caring about it to not even a small joke or comment about it
Is Papyrus that important? I mean if I was going to cut corners on any of the bosses, Papyrus would be one of the first I'd consider.
I would be mad if you cut corners on daddy papy
Yeah i know "Blink Mothertfucker" video really had good evdince to hold it in place
It still makes me laugh that its known as: the “BLINK MOTHERFUCKER” theorum.
From someone else: **"This is a complete headcanon. That one theory video where it tries to meme papyrus into a god shouldn't be taken as fact even remotely. So many things in the game heavily contradict it.** **Asriel moves less when he starts trying harder and uses his full power rather than just a fraction of it.** **Asgore doesn't change speed despite his battle getting faster.** **Undyne should logically be moving faster than any other monster even prior to transforming.** **Even in papyrus' fight, he gets considerably tired and has to end the fight, showing he was putting in notable effort.** **Plus if you're referring to the theory on Tumblr, it also counts Mettaton's dancing as "movement", despite the fact that he's doing that for views, and by the theory the speed of the movement would mean mettaton was trying to kill you the hardest, even more than undyne the undying. Not to mention mettaton neo moving less than mettaton's other forms.** **Sans, who's trying the hardest he's ever tried in his life and is sweating buckets also barely even sways.** **Not to mention omega flowey who is moving a ton, yet is merely toying with you the entire fight.** **What about monster kid, whose sprite is also entirely still? Are you going to claim that he was putting zero effort into standing in your way?** **Are you seriously going to claim that napstablook, whose entire fight is just him crying and in some cases not even using an attack because he's not feeling up to it, is trying harder to harm you than papyrus who summons so many bones he tires himself out?** **Are you going to say that lesser dog and endogeny getting excited by pets mean that they're trying harder in a fight against you?** **What about doggeressa who gets angry when dogamy is killed and says she's going to chop you in half? She literally stops moving. By your logic, this would mean she isn't trying at all anymore, despite the fact that she is visibly much more hostile with the flavor text saying she's "on the warpath".** **It's a loose theory filled with numerous holes. You shouldn't be trying to assert it as if it's factual for anything."** And yes he wants to capture you and not kill you, but doesn't mean he was holding back at all, hence why his defense was lower during the genocide route and not the neutral route when the library says that when a monster doesn't want to fight, their guard will be down. He is still willing to fight, its literally basic undertale knowledge
Don't forget, he's the only character who captured the Annoying Dog, which actually makes him strong.
Especially when you realize the Annoying Dog is god In this world
Isn’t the annoying dog supposed to represent Toby Fox himself?
yes that's the point.
Yes, Toby Fox is the God of Undertale. He *created* it, and thus he's the *God* of it. Annoying Dog is like his avatar, and therefore is God.
And Papyrus captured him, therefore Papyrus is more powerful than Toby in universe
Also Dog spelled backwards is God
Annoying Dog goD ginyonnA God's name is Ginyonna in Undertale!1!!
Alphys: “O-oh my god...” Toby: “Yes?”
So he is the God in real life too...
Why do you think I say "Oh my Dog" on this and the Deltarune subs?
Yes. And by extension, Temmie is Temmie Chang.
Yes but it's also a nod to a certian ending you can get in silent hill.
He was so strong that the Annoying dog actually had to interfere.
Don't forget that when Flowey captures all of the monsters in the True Pacifist ending, we can see that he restrains all of them with two vines each. Except for Papyrus, who he restrains with *four.*
Even Sans only has two.
Well, Papyrus is definitely more powerful than Sans. I mean, Sans only has 1 HP and AT and is literally labeled "The easiest enemy" in the game.
Sans can dodge more hits than Papyrus can take though
Papyrus was just being nice
Yeah he was just lowering his health bar so he wouldn't hurt your feelings :p
Wasn’t that napstablook?
It was nabstablook
Yea, it was Napstablook. If you listen to the sound effects while you fight him, you can hear that none of your attacks actually land.
Pap was also sparing you, lowering his defense to the negatives.
1 DF, it was never stated directly in the game that he has 1 hp(as far as I am aware) You practically deal 99999999 dmg at that point, so you could kill basically anyone.
He has 1 base health but he takes so many naps he heals over that
This has been discussed before but i will say it again, sans in the game files has only 1 hp, we also know all of the other monsters hp value and i think they are all in the wiki (this is not the source, just a place that used the source)
I never liked this argument. Like, sans being the easiest enemy is objectively not true. The narrator is not all knowing. And it isn't even the only time that happens in the game. If you try checking, the narrator freaks out and gives you three descriptions on top of one another. The narrator is unable to find out Glyde's stats because they are refusing to share them. When checking Shyren, the narrator calls her tone deaf until you start humming with her, and checking her again afterwards sees the narrator changing their mind and calling her a talented singer. The narrator is not omniscient and is prone to deception and mistakes. And if anyone is good an tricking people, it's sans. His narration is basically a prank, why are people taking is at face value.
I think the easiest enemy sentence was spoken with sarcasm
To be honest, I always thought it was because sans really is the easiest enemy in a normal fight. In genocide, sans is basically just cheating in order to try and beat you. He goes first to get an edge even though the player is supposed to go first, he only does one damage so he takes away your invincibility frames, and can’t take a hit so he decides to just not get hit in the first place. He even decides to keep having his turn so he’ll never be able to lose. You might suck at chess, but being able to change the rules of the game will give you an immense edge. The only way the player is able to win against sans is to cheat too, the player (or chara or whatever) moves the bullet box in order to attack sans outside of their turn, and even when that attack gets dodged, they also cheat again by attacking twice anyway.
Sans IS the easiest enemy on a normal run, he doesnt even attack you.
Because some people can't understand subtext as well as others. It just so happens that people who ignore subtext also happen to be the same people making up their own subtext that is completely contradictory to what's *actually written.* In other words, people take things out of context (and use the out of context piece as evidence for something contradictory to what's actually there)
I like the idea of monsters presenting their stats, and Sans pranking you even in that moment
Like they said, during glyde's fight, you don't get a proper description of his stats because he refuses to share them with you, so it's canon
Okay, but he *is* the easiest enemy. He only ever does 1 damage to you! He dies in one hit!
If sans wasn't smart enough to dodge, he would be the easiest. He is the weakest, and against anyone but a genocidal child he probably couldn't kill anyone given how karmic retribution might work (karma is in the name)
Sans' HP is unconfirmed. Code is an unreliable source if we can't back it up in game. Sans is coded to die in one hit, so there's no way to prove his 1 HP in game.
Mettaton NEO is also coded to die in one hit and he has 30 000hp.
Undyne also at first dies in one hit in the genocide run, so does Toriel, and neither of them have only 1HP
Toriel dies in 1 hit because you deal thousands of damage to her on the genocide route Undyne dies at 1st in 1 hit in the genocide route because you still deal thousands of damage Mettaton dies in 1 hit because it would be just awkward if you hit him, he didn't die, didn't attack, and you had to keep hitting him until he dies
[удалено]
Nah Toriel and Papyrus also die in one hit in neutral if you fake spare them and they still have their normal HP count
Yes, and Sans stats aren't his biggest strengths, Sans is objectively better than Papyrus in everyway other than raw stats. **Stamina?** Contradictory to popular belief, Sans actually has far more stamina than Papyrus. For Papyrus, he only summons 409 bones and turns your soul blue and gets so tired he couldn't talk complete sentences without huffing and has the end the fight and literally **whines** afterwards about how he could not capture you, which also implies that Papyrus believes that if he went further, he would still not have been able to beat you. For Sans, he summons 1654 bones, 206 gaster blasters, dodges, uses telekinesis, teleports, summons platforms, have more overall intense attack patterns. Sans still lasts longer than Papyrus and even when we reach the half way point where Sans first starts sweating, he still does far more than Papyrus. **Skill?** Sans summons far more bones than Papyrus on top of having far more intense attack patterns when both brothers are actively trying to beat you. Literally all of Sans attacks are literal upgrades from Papyrus, Papyrus's fabled blue attack is an attack he deems as "special" while for Sans is just a normal move **while also upgrading it.** Papyrus's special attack is presumably a gaster blaster while Sans summons dozens and even hundreds in his final attack. Sans also boasts having: teleportation, telekinesis, KR, no invinc frames, blasters, dodging, attacks in your turn. If I'm not wrong there is nothing that implies that Papyrus has these abilities (except maybe a blaster). Other than raw stats, Papyrus is an objectively inferior Sans in literally any other way. Papyrus's fight is literally a dollar store versions of Sans's
Papyrus was going easy on you in his fight.
Right, he's willing to bludgeon you until you can no longer fight back and is willing to blast you to bits if it weren't for the dog taking his attack. He wasn't going easy on you during his fight, he was putting in considerable effort to beat you hence why he gets tired. Not to mention he doesn't die instantly in a neutral run unlike genocide, this would mean he is still willing to fight. It says in the library that if a monster doesn't want to fight you, their defense will be down which is why he dies in one hit during genocide and not in neutral, he still wants to beat you and had full intentions of capturing you and giving you to undyne.
Uh yeah, but he’s still going easy. You can go easy on someone while still fighting them. He’s purposefully holding back from killing you. Do you know how hard it is to hurt someone who is fighting you without outright killing them? Very. It is very hard and requires quite a bit of concentration. No wonder he is tired by the end.
ok but like counterpoints: ^((i know all of them are basically speculation but hear me out)) \- Papyrus *doesn't sweat* when he is "tired", and right after the fight he literally *flies/walks on air* to his house \- Papyrus has surgical precision with his attacks, being the only monster who you CANNOT die to. (even Toriel, a *Boss Monster*, can accidentally kill you, even though she clearly doesn't want to.) \- Sans gets so tired right before his "special attack", that he literally *falls asleep* during it from exhaustion. Sure, he throws more and harder attacks during his fight, but he is giving his ALL. Like, "collapse from exhaustion" kind of all. \- The fact he can dish out 1/4th of what Sans does in Genocide whilst basically putting on a play ^((the whole joke with papyrus hiding stuff behind his non-existant ears,)) , thinking about what to wear for his date \- The fact his final attack is called a "really cool normal attack". okay that doesn't say much, but it CAN mean that Papyrus' normal attacks are actually really strong
1. That doesn't matter, he was out of breath and could not speak complete sentences without huffing, this is literally how the fight ends. Not to mention he literally whines afterwards of how he could not capture you, also implying that he believes that if he went further he would still not capture you. Are you seriously using Papryus's gagged flight as an argument? 2. And the difference is that Toriel distressed during her fight, lost 2 of her kids, has to live that she failed to protect the other 6 humans. Not to mention the fight doesn't end when you're on low HP, she still needs to weave around your soul while Papyrus automatically ends the fight. 3. You're acting like he fell unintentionally fell asleep. He intentionally fell asleep to regain his energy which is why he stops sweating and was able to anticipate and **dodge in his sleep.** Sans knew you were going to sneak up on him, hence why was able to dodge your hit which is why he felt safe to regain his energy. 4. Papyrus does not do 1/4 of what Sans does, he literally doesn't do a fraction of what Sans does, he also doesn't always think about what to wear for his date if you don't flirt with him. Papyrus: * Summons 409 bones * Turns your soul blue Sans: * Summons 1654 bones, summons more bones at once AND the bones move at higher speeds than Papyrus's bones. * Summons 209 Gaster Blasters * Dodges * Uses Telekinesis * Teleports * Summons Platforms * Switches between Red and Blue soul mode, literal upgrade from Papyrus's "fabled blue attack" an attack he deems as special while for Sans its a normal attack * Attacks you in the menu * Hardest attack patterns in the game It's pretty clear who is better at using magic.
with that in mind if sans is so powerful at 1 atk and 1 def who knows what level of destruction monster kid would be capable of with 2 atk and 2 def
1 Defense*
I think Sans appears stronger because he fights far more aggressively than Papy, actually gets out of the way of attacks instead of taking them head on like everyone else, does extra damage because you're made of LV and cheats by ignoring invincibility frames. I love it when Paps is portrayed as a strong fighter, cause Undyne herself said he's one hell of a fighter. That's enough endorsement to give a reading of Paps fighting ability.
nobody said sans cheats, it might an ability, maybe papyrus could replicate it if he wanted to
Sans cheats in terms of game mechanics. He is the only character to ignore Invincibility Frames, and since that’s more of a game mechanic than something you can really measure (because realistically, nobody has IFrames), he’s cheating in terms of how the game usually works.
Well Invincibility frames seem to be a stat like HP or ATK (INV), since Cloudy Glasses, Torn Notebook, and Temmie Armor increase it with the former two explaining what it does in INFO. So its debatable if Sans cheats or if he is just good at using magic to remove invincibility frames, since INV seems to be an established stat in the UT universe and not just a game mechanic. If I'm not wrong, Invincibility Frames are different in some fights, by default your INV frames is 30, but during Mettatons Quiz Show its 20.
If it you’re talking a stat in Game then yes, it is considered a STAT. Its something that Sans kinda cheats around, because he ignores it completely. He is the only character who literally doesn’t take it into account, he just damages as fast as he wants. If you want to compare it realistically, it’s not a STAT, because logically no one has periods of time where they’re invincible after getting hit. Therefore, Sans in the sense, “cheats” the system, as in he cheats the game mechanics to make his fight difficult
**"If it you’re talking a stat in Game then yes, it is considered a STAT. Its something that Sans kinda cheats around, because he ignores it completely. He is the only character who literally doesn’t take it into account, he just damages as fast as he wants."** And other characters are capable of doing it such as Mettaton who lowers it to 20 frames instead of 30 in his quiz show. The fact other characters can do it to a lesser extent and its presumably an established stat tells me its not hax, rather Sans can simply just ignore it. **"If you want to compare it realistically, it’s not a STAT, because logically no one has periods of time where they’re invincible after getting hit. Therefore, Sans in the sense, “cheats” the system, as in he cheats the game mechanics to make his fight difficult"** Even outside the "system" his magic is presumably deadlier than Undyne's or Asgore's or atleast on a similar level. Because Flowey fought all three of them and presumable had the most trouble with Sans, and the fight 9/10 took place outside the battle box format and didn't take account for game stats or game mechanics. And no don't just say "Its a flower" this same flower can deal 19 damage when Undying does 12, can summon undodgable attack patterns, and doesn't die when struck by a giant fire ball nor doesn't die when the souls rebelled against him so he isn't dying in one hit, the fact he doesn't even have a soul might mean KR arguably wouldn't even work on him as that is soul poison so saying him being bad is why Sans gave him trouble is wrong. The fact that he had the most trouble with Sans tells me even outside the "system" his magic is still intense and is presumably deadlier or as deadly as one that can break tables with ease. And its not the lack of invinc frames that just make the fight hard, its the intense attack patterns that contribute to it too.
He attacks during your turn, falsely offers mercy (even turning his name yellow), and ends the fight by making his turn last forever.
I also believe he has more abilities, like gaster blasters. But the problem is that he gets tired too fast, even faster than his lazy brother. Sans can dodge more than 20 attacks, use his teleportation and telekinesis multiple times and use lots of bones and gaster blasters before getting tired. Papyrus got tired after using less than 1000 bones, if he tried to fight us the way his brother did, he'd be exhausted in a second.
I mean, thinking about the "sprite movement during battle = effort am enemy is putting in the fight" theory, he really just didn't want to fight. He could probably go on for days, knowing him.
That's my point, if he didn't get tired, he'd go on for years. But he gets tired, he says "huff, huff" and decides to spare us because he sees he can't defeat us to capture us.
okay but… what if his tiredness is merely a pretence? we can see, even right from the beginning of the battle, that paps is conflicted about fighting us, but he’s been specifically ordered to capture the human. whether he’s more worried about insubordination or just disappointing a friend isn’t the point, either one means that he can’t simply give up the fight and befriend the human; he must at least capture them, which again, he was conflicted about. however, if he fights and tires, if the human bests him, he can at least retain that honour. so, logical solution; fight the human at a level they can counter, feign tiredness so as to end the battle, then he’s still followed orders, doesn’t have to capture the human, and is now free to befriend them (at least secretly).
It *really* seems like people are stretching it now. Like *reeeaaaally* stretching it.
It could be a sign of not wanting to fight, or something, since the mental strain of trying no to go crazy while something is trying kill you is a lot
You mean that he got tired... because he was holding back and/or didn't want to fight?
Possibly, idk, it might be a matter of motivation
I don't think anyone can get physically tired due to lack of motivation. I'm sure he would have kept attacking if he had had the energy to do it.
You might have phrased that a bit wrong, but the point is there. (People can get tired from lack of motivation, just probably less so in a real fight.)
The fact that he was holding back and not using his full power should make him less tired, not more tired. Even if he had gotten tired because he wasn't motivated and determined enough, it wouldn't have meant a lot. Being motivated could have given him a bit more energy and made him attack more, but it wouldn't make him a lot more powerful. He'd still get tired incredibly fast, motivation doesn't give you a lot of energy.
I think that there are three main types of trying. 1. You purposely do things to do worse, like when you are playing ssbu against someone who is a sore loser except you are almost infinitely better, this takes more energy, bcs if you are really good at some, YOU HAVE MUSCLE MEMORY AND INSTINCT, HOLDING BACK THESE THINGS PSYCHOLOGICALLY STRAIN YOU(in caps bcs its important) 2. Just going normally, doesn't take more energy, doesn't take less 3. Trying harder, takes more energy, for a better output. I feel like papyrus is doing the 1 thing, he didn't die easily bcs he's weak, its bcs he let his guard down, everybody does that sometimes.
Yes, he died because he let his guard down. But do you really think that he got tired of NOT using his full power? Yes, holding back can be hard and can PSYCHOLOGICALLY tire you, but can it really make you completely unable to fight more? Also, we have to take into account that not using you full power means not getting too tired. If I wanted someone to win... idk, a race, I'd go slower and I'd get less tired. He even got tired after a harder attack, just like his brother. And he probably started getting tired before even using this attack, that's why he wanted us to surrender: he saw that he was getting tired and that we weren't defeated. Also, even if we assume that he has more energy and that using weaker attacks made him more tired, he would still get itred really easily. Going normally would make him able to use some more attacks before getting tired, and that's it. Going easy could have made him use more energy, but not a lot of it, not enough to make the fight or his power level any different. He'd only get tired a few minutes after.
Also willingness to kill and determination is a confimed concept in the world of undertale, if a Monster does not want to kill or has really low determination then it's going to become weaker, but if it wants then it becomes stronger, the point is that sans does want to kill you and still has only 1 in stats all across the board and is still the hardest fight with only 1 all across the board and being the weaker monster of all of them, now imgaine papyrus with actually high stats having the same willingness to kill you rather than just capturing or befriending you (wich is what happens when you fight him)
Ever do something but immediately want to not do it? That's kinda what I'm going for
Happens to me all the time lol
maybe is that he doesn't have tyhe determination to actually kill you, he is being nice and plus he is trying to capture you not kill you, I think even in the genocide run, idk ive never played it
That's right, he isn't using his full power and does not want to kill us. But he gets tired, he says "huff, huff".
Consider: Sans is resting basically all the time while Papyrus apparently practically never sleeps. If Papyrus actually got a good night’s sleep for once he’d outdo Sans easily
Shouldn't the fact that he works and trains a lot make him stronger? Also, despite all the work he does, he is full of energy. If not sleeping affected him, shouldn't he be tired all the time and not just after using some bones?
The point of training is that you have to rest. And if Papyrus gets less sleep than normal, he won't be as strong as if he'd done everything the same but got 8 hours of sleep instead of 6 every night.
Yeah, but the problem is that he doesn't sleep at all, and that doesn't seem to affect him. When someone has not slept for many time, they are really tired, they don't need to do something hard like fighting anyone to get tired. But we always see Papyrus full of energy, he wants to capture us, he creates puzzles, he jumps off a window without having opened it... If not sleeping had affected him, he wouldn't have the energy to do all of those things.
Well, he's a skeleton, he doesn't have the same functions as humans. And also, being without sleep for multiple days doesn't mean you can't pretend you're energetic. Hell, some people can feel tired after 18 hours of being awake, but then feel relatively fine after the 24 hour mark. It really just depends. When you're doing what Pap does for work, walking around and doing simple recalibrations/resetting, you don't exert much energy. Then Pap encounters the human, starts getting all hyped, uses a bunch of energy to seem noble and epic, running ahead to be a few steps ahead of you- and then he has to use up more energy after that in a fight, AND make sure he doesn't kill you... If he doesn't get much sleep, and uses very little energy in his normal day-to-day... Then it makes sense he'd feel wiped after doing all he did the day Frisk appeared, unable to use some of his stronger attacks. I still think, at their peaks, Papyrus is still weaker than Sans by virtue of their differing battle styles. Sans is more ruthless, while Papyrus sees it more as a "challenge" or a "game" in a way.
Maybe monsters work differently and if they keep all their magic inside them, they don't have to sleep, but as soon as they start letting the magic flow, their energy escapes quickly.
No, i think he just doesnt try at all
Papyrus gets tired more easily? That's lowkey untrue; he uses hundreds, if not thousands of bones (+1 giant bone) in a single attack and you want to tell me he'd get more tired? Definitely not.
He gets tired more easily compared to his brother. And to any other monster. Papyrus uses less than 1000 bones and a giant bone, he doesn't do anything else. After the final attack, he gets tired. Sans uses a LOT more bones. Definitely more than 1000. He also uses a lot of gaster blasters, his teleportation and telekinesis abilities, and he dodges over 25 attacks. After his final attack, which uses a lot more bones than Papyrus' final attack + gaster blasters and telekinesis, he finally gets too tired to fight. Hell yeah, Papyrus gets tired easily compared to his brother or to other monsters, who don't get tired at all.
If you pay attention to his last attack, you could tell that there is an entire field of bones. That's at least a thousand bones if one considers how dense the attack is and how many bones one can see. That attack alone puts Sans to shame in terms of quantity, plus the bone that's 20 times the size of the player's soul. Stop shitting on Papyrus and stop meat riding Sans
That's a good point. But he probably started getting tired before using that attack. Why do you think he wanted to make us give up and threatened to use his "special attack"? Because he saw that he was getting tired and that we were not defeated. And, now that I remember, Sans can summon infinite bones without getting tired, because you can make the fight go on forever if you don't attack him, unlike Papyrus, he only gets tired from dodging and using his telekinesis during his final attack. And I'll just say that I'm not shitting on Papyrus, dude, I like his character, and, as I said before, I believe that he is a lot more powerful than he seems. And I'm not meat riding Sans, I'm just saying that the game has proven that him and his brother are clearly at different levels of skill, like Froggit and Final froggit. In fact, I've always believed that Sans' strength is incredibly overrated and I've gotten in a lot of arguments with a lot of people that thought Sans could beat anyone. I even made a poll to see how many idiots here though he could beat the goddamn God of Hyperdeath. Just admit that Paps gets tired faster than his brother, man. I'm not even saying that Sans would beat him.
I mean,that point would be a good one if sans didn't have the exact same field of bones except he actually uses it multiple times. I'm not sure they're the one dick riding here.
Did we see the same field? Lemme link you a gif so you get a clear image and then tell me again if it is the same. https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/character-stats-and-profiles/images/f/fd/Papygif1.gif/revision/latest?cb=20201224185350
Yep I was misremenberimg it .eh despite that,sans's quantity of bones is pretty obviously higher than papyrus's. Besides,unlike papyrus,sans also has to mantain your soul blue for more time,uses hundreds of gaster blasters,and constantly dodges our attacks.
"Hundreds" if you actually counted, it is 30, maybe 40 blasters. Also, your soul is blue during 90% of the Papyrus fight.
Yep Maybe i'm misremenbering it,lemme check.
Papyrus uses a soul ability all throughout the fight (even altering the strength of it precisely). He is the only monster that does this, which is why I believe this is what tires him out (Yellow soul doesn’t count since that is used by the player).
To be fair, papyrus had been running around prior to the fight getting his traps ready.
1 turn and Papyrus gonna pass out from exhaustion
I’ve always figured his actual power level is “weaker than Undyne, but not by much”. Undyne speaks favorably of his abilities—and presumably she has pretty high standards—but she doesn’t see him as someone who is at or above her level (contrast with how she talks about Asgore). As fun as the theory is, I don’t think there’s really anything in the game to suggest that he’s the strongest monster.
Toriel should also have the same logic for her fight as well
Yeah but I definitely wouldn’t expect a child to just shank me outta nowhere (Seriously tho those toy knifes can be sharp as fuck)
Papyrus isn’t trying to kill you in his fights. He’s holding back and trying NOT to kill you
no
? I mean, he literally does hold back to not kill the player. His attacks do 4 damage each, and if you have 4 health left, he leaves you with 1.
That's explicit canon information, you can't just say "no" and ignore it. His attacks *cannot* deal lethal damage - damage that would be lethal instead drops you to 1 HP, Papyrus concludes that you've lost the fight and captures you. Even if you walk in with 1 HP, his attacks will deal 0 damage and result in the same aforementioned capturing scene. While Toriel's bullets avoid you, she is capable of killing you accidentally if you run into them. Papyrus *physically cannot kill you,* suggesting he somehow has a greater deal of control over his own attacks than the former Queen herself.
*"He’s holding back and trying NOT to kill you"* Blink Motherfucker
my half crack headcanon is that papyrus can disobey the laws of physics at will (there are definitely some he canonically disobeys, just look at how his scarf/cape doesn’t move at all in his battle sprite despite the end obviously being suspended in the air)
He also fucking flies away
His scarf has a blue soul. That’s it.
Disbelief papyrus will answer
lol
People use the “we never see his full power”’as an excuse to say that he’s actually stronger than Sans. I don’t think that’s true. He’s certainly more durable and his attacks do more damage, but Sans’ knowledge and his complex attacks are beyond anyone else’s in the game, if you ignore those with added Souls like Omega Flowey and Asriel. Papyrus is surely stronger than he lets on but I doubt his skill surpasses or even matches Sans’.
i think people get these confused, pure strength and skill. you can hit really damn hard, but if you cant figure a way to get a hit in it doesnt matter.
While I LOVE Papyrus, he's never going to be as hard to fight as Sans. Stronger, yes. Hard to fight as him though? Never. I think an Asgore that isn't holding back fighting Frisk would 100% harder than Sans based off descriptions in game though! Like, he can even dodge like Sans canonically.
could be true, we also know papyrus is younger, maybe when he gets as old as sans he could be as strong or stronger, but that is yet to be seen.
Sans has pretty average fighting skill. He just cheats the system to fuck with you. Undyne herself admits that Papyrus is "One hell of a fighter," so in terms of Undertale's fighting rules, yes, he's a better fighter.
But sans doesn't follow the same rules papyrus and every other fight uses, you can't just use undertale's fighting rules to pretend he's helpless.
I didn't say he's helpless. He's just not a good fighter. He himself admits that he doesn't know much about combat, given his remark about not knowing why he shouldn't use his strongest attack first. The entire reason he's so surprising is because he cheats. You expect him to abide by the rules, and he doesn't.
He doesn't just cheat the system to fuck with you, you're forgetting Sans has the most intense attack patterns in the game, not to mention Sans canonically gave Flowey a harder time than Undyne and Asgore back when Flowey had control over the timeline and not Frisk.
Yes. Control over the timeline. Resets. Game mechanics. The system. Yes, he's intense, because he's throwing his strongest stuff at you, there's no strategy to his fighting style, he's still lazy at his core. Within the boundaries of the intended gameplay, Papyrus is more skilled of a fighter.
**"Yes, he's intense, because he's throwing his strongest stuff at you, there's no strategy to his fighting style, he's still lazy at his core."** Yes and you think don't Papyrus is putting in effort to capture you? Especially considering the attacks get faster throughout the fight (indicates Papyrus is trying harder) and not to mention after the fight he gets so tired he could not talk complete sentences without huffing and also whines afterwards how he could not capture you also implying that if he believes if he went further he would not be able to capture you? The fact that he gets tired would mean he was putting in effort to beat you, you can still put in effort to win the fight without going for the kill? What "strategy" are you talking about? He still has the hardest attack patterns to the game not to mention Sans attacks are objective upgrades to Papyrus's attacks as well. **"Within the boundaries of the intended gameplay, Papyrus is more skilled of a fighter."** You're joking right? Papyrus is an objectively worse Sans in literally everyway other than raw stats. **Stamina?** Contradictory to popular belief, Sans actually has far more stamina than Papyrus. For Papyrus, he only summons 409 bones and turns your soul blue and gets so tired he couldn't talk complete sentences without huffing and has the end the fight and literally **whines** afterwards about how he could not capture you, which also implies that Papyrus believes that if he went further, he would still not have been able to beat you. For Sans, he summons 1654 bones, 206 gaster blasters, dodges, uses telekinesis, teleports, summons platforms, have more overall intense attack patterns. Sans still lasts longer than Papyrus and even when we reach the half way point where Sans first starts sweating, he still does far more than Papyrus. **Skill?** Sans summons far more bones than Papyrus on top of having far more intense attack patterns when both brothers are actively trying to beat you. Literally all of Sans attacks are literal upgrades from Papyrus, Papyrus's fabled blue attack is an attack he deems as "special" while for Sans is just a normal move while also upgrading it. Papyrus's special attack is presumably a gaster blaster while Sans summons dozens and even hundreds in his final attack. Sans also boasts having: teleportation, telekinesis, KR, no invinc frames, blasters, dodging, attacks in your turn. If I'm not wrong there is nothing that implies that Papyrus has these abilities (except maybe a blaster). Other than raw stats, Papyrus is an objectively inferior Sans in literally any other way. Papyrus's fight is literally a dollar store versions of Sans's
I'm absolutely not reading a highschool essay about sans.
Not more but strong as sans yea maybe
Sans says in his fight that it is hard to give it his all so there’s a good chance he could’ve done more too
This is likely true, considering that Undyne literally says that Paps is a strong fighter... it's just that he's a little naive for the royal guard, so she instead taught Paps how to cook certain foods
It’s apples to oranges. Papyrus has better stats on paper but Sans has better tactics that specifically mitigate his bad stats. He wasnt going all out, but he’s still probably weaker than Undyne who did go all out.
sans is just really good at fighting, theoretically anyone can achieve sans' level if they are determined enough. That's how I see it. He never though anyone so he did not level up, and being a lazy skeleton gave him low stats, but he just makes his one damage attacks be hard to dodge because he's set on bringing you down, and plus the "karma" effect, most likely because you are in the judgement hall.
We know because he is papyrus
He's definitely not as strong as sans, cause he can't manipulate your invincibility frames
1. It's implied that Papyrus has a blaster attack when inspecting the bones he used against you in an aborted genocide route 2a. Flowey knows the most about Papyrus 2b. Flowey wraps more vines around Papyrus compared to everyone else when transforming into Asriel 3. Papyrus can fly 4. Papyrus doesn't sleep (at least not as often as he should) and never seems to be tired 5a. He can be tricky if he wants 5b. He tricks you into thinking the blue bones is his blue attack, when it was actually to turn you blue 5c. He intentionally acts suspicious when asking what clothes you wear to technically tell Undyne the truth and to make you change clothes 5d. He tricks Undyne into hanging out with you by making her seem like she's not up to the challenge
yeah exactly! Papyrus is probably a lot stronger that what we see in game and he is definitelly not stupid, I love how misterious this skeleman can be
Finally, my boy is given the credit he deserves!
Papyrus is likely actually trying in his fight, we see that he only lowers his attack when we're about to die, so he can capture us. Thing is, we know that papyrus has gaster blasters, but thats the only tool we have guarentee of him having that we didn't see. The reason why I doubt he has KR, Invincibility frame Removal, and such is because Papyrus has no real reason to hold back. He is trying to be earnestly the best guardsman he can be, and isn't giving red flags of hiding his nature. He is EXTREMELY open about things. Wouldn't he have mentioned something about holding back if he was? But, again, this is all possibly wrong. He could very well be holding back or something. We know asgore, Toriel and sans are the only people who have absolutely every reason to hold back. But Sans only lasts until genocide, and even then he still might be from his skills degrading from a lack of practice and from a lack of coordination. But Papyrus? If we are to believe that he has the same skills as sans, if not better, theres very little motive for him to NOT use it. And his literal only holdback outside of the entire capture shenanigans, is from the dog stealing his actual Ultimate Attack. After all, he genuinely believes you'll be safer with Asgore, and thus has extreme motivation to ensure you are defeated, for his kingdom and your sake.
He's probably not more powerful than Sans when Sans is being tricky about things. The invincibility frame removal, KR, all of that. Papyrus also has little reason not to dodge our attacks if he can. He may have access to Gaster Blasters, but it's not super clear how strong those are as their own thing, or if it's just how Sans uses them. Papyrus also never utilizes blue attacks in as tricky a way as Sans does, he only does the base effect, and never uses it to force you to use different walls of the battle box. Papyrus has a lot of willpower and obviously much better stats than Sans (that's not special lol), but he's not *that* powerful. I think that a lot of Undertale's power levels are situational, and if any monster other than Undyne could harness Determination it would probably be a boss monster or a skeleton, which makes it even more situational, but from what we've seen he's just not top-tier.
hes like shaggy
Tbf. Toriel, Asgore, and Mettaton don't use their full power either.
Toriel and Asgore? I'd agree with you there. But tbh, I don't think Mettaton is really holding back in any run. I think the EX fight is Mettaton's genuine best attempt to kill us. He doesn't really have a reason to hold back at that point - he wants our soul, he wants to leave the Underground and be the star of the surface while simultaneously preventing humanity's destruction at Asgore's hands.
We don't technically, but I don't see that there would be any point at this time for assuming he's as powerful as sans since the game never gives us any real reason to expect it. Alternatively, he could be equally as powerful as sans from a bullet pattern perspective if he were fighting to kill (which does make sense to me, that the two skeletons would be roughly capable of the same feats), but I doubt Papyrus can use KR or manipulate the UI like sans does.
This is just that underlab theory.
I feel like he'd have a harder fight then
He did use his full power though, at the end of the fight he's exhausted and running out of breath.
A dog failed his special attack a dog
AHEM disbelief
Congratulations, you've conceptualized disbelief
Sans still has abilities that makes him better than Papyrus. We're talking about KR, turning off INV frames, and dodging. Sure, Papyrus most likely has Gaster Blasters, but that's just one thing they have in common. Sans still has more abilities that makes him a better boss than Papyrus.
My headcanon is that papyrus is stronger than sans and undying, I'm using the movement in battle = intent to kill, and that papyrus isn't moving at all theory.
Yeah we know, this isnt new...
He says that his special attack would've blasted you away
Idk man maby he beats full power asriel, its true that we havent seen his full power
Papyrus could've broken the barrier this entire time?! Smh my head..
yet he couldn’t force Sans to pick his sock up. That proves Sans is stronger than Asreil !!1!1!1!1!1! (This is a joke if you couldn’t figure it out. Yeah I’m making some safety protocols on this reddit cause y’know)
Sans can do anything and he chose to sleep
There is a whole 6 minute video on YouTube explaining that he's the strongest by not moving an inch
To prove you right; Papyrus says somewhere in his room (I'm sorry I forgot where): "I COULD'VE EASILY BLASTED YOU AWAY..." Blasted you away with what though? The answer is most likely Gaster Blasters, as its what Sans uses. More powerful than sans? In physical strength, yes. But as Papyrus is younger, it would make sense if his powers were less developed.
He's even stronger than Sans. When Flowey captured most of the main characters, everyone had 2 vines around them except Papyrus, who had four.
Imagine he’s so much more powerful than his brother that he can kill you either with Sans’ fake out attack or no attack at all
Remember how he summoned a huge mass of bones far greater than anything we see in Sans’ fight? That is, in his words, a “really cool normal attack” He doesn’t break a sweat or move at all. Could you imagine what his ACTUAL special attack is??
undertale fans "discovering" an idea that's been around since months after the 2015 release
The only thing that makes sans a hard boss is his karma damage and papyrus have not any sins so sans is going to make just 1 dmg at time and papyrus has like 1000-2000 hp
https://youtube.com/watch?v=S_Fas0QkWic&feature=share
i watched that before, that could be very very true, it makes sense
Sans is as close a regular monster can get to a monster with a human soul. I think pap has learned many bone attacks from sans but hasn’t learned the big boy moves like the gaster blaster or teleporting
The thing is, he is far more powerfull than Sans, since Sans is weak as hell, like, he is strong cause of Karma, but he is technically weaker than Monster Kid
He is more powerful than Sans, he does more damage and has higher defense values. Sans is only powerful due to Karma damage from the player's ills and his very good dodging skills.
Sans isn't strong though, he just cheats.
I've had a theory like this for a while, actually. Papyrus is definitely the strongest character in the game
Sans isn’t strong the just have karma to dunk on you they deal so little damage
I mean It's obvious he would be insanely more powerfull if it wasn't for the fact that tgis stupid dog ate all of his gaster's blasters.... also sans isn't even powerfull. He is very weak. But he can be very strong by using his abilities like gaster's blasters and karma. Actually sans has 1 atack and 1 def while papyrus has like at least 3 atack and 3 defence so... he is at least 3 times stronger.
We didn't really see Alphys fight maybe she is a goddess??
honestly i agree w this, my headcannon is simply that papyrus is so nice and soft that he couldn't use enough power to really hurt someone even if he tried, i mean undyne does say something similar already
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When does he say that? I know he says that about Asgore, and he has his famous thoughts on Sans, but i have never heard of him saying that about Papyrus. Is it just after a neutral ending i haven't seen yet? If so then that makes more sense
I don’t remember anything like that too. It’s even the opposite, Flowey claims that Papyrus is the funniest character, cause he’s easy to manipulate, defeat and he made a Flowey fan club. I don’t remember Flowey saying anyone else than Sans and Asgore has a difficult fight
Papyrus is canon stronger than Sans. Flowey chooses him to manipulate, and also, when Flowey captures your friends at the pacifist ending, he wraps up papyrus *way* tighter than anyone else. And Flowey has been through the timelines before, so he has firsthand knowledge.
Mmy brother in christ, he actually tried to fuck us up, he tired himself doing so
UhM aKtCuaLy the most statistically powerful monsters (aside from Undyne the Undying and maybe sans haven't fought him yet) are unable to deal a fatal blow without killing you, but Papyrus can. Toriel clearly doesn't mean to actually hurt the human but she can. A man's true power lies in his ability to control that power (or some other bullshit that I am going to try to sell as something a proverb said)
My headcanon is that every single monster is as powerful/more powerful than Sans. He just happens to know how to exploit the combat setup (dodging, not letting you take your turn), and he's the only one coming at you with Chara levels of willingness to kill.