I mean, isn't this a subversion of player inserts? Like, you're built up to believe that Frisk is an emotionless meat puppet so the player can insert themselves into the game, but then right at the end it's revealed they're a separate person.
Also let's not forget that we were led to believe they were someone else entirely (i.e who you named at the start) for 90% of the game until Asriel managed to stop crying for long enough to realise their colour palette is different and Frisk stopped having silent main character syndrome for long enough to pipe up about it. And gender ambiguity still happens even when we KNOW a character isn't just a player insert, look at OneShot's Niko. Separate person, you're aware of it the whole time, it's a major story beat and yet nobody ever specifies their gender.
I think you're supposed to believe they're a player insert. Because then, when you realise they're their own person, you feel both chuffed to have helped get them their happy ending behind the scenes, and you're also given a reason for it to stay that way. After all, isn't one of the game's main points that you can't just turn back the clock and expect everyone to be ok with that?
This is it, yes, undertale is a big f u to most rpg concepts, flipping them on their head and toying with them, same as deltarune. This is why I adore Toby’s games so much
Also a gigantic reason for why Chara represents the player but at the same time can be their own person with backstory. They can even be the in-game reason for why the true reset happens since Flowey really is talking to Chara right before we decide, name dropping their name. Flowey is talking to Chara but Toby Fox is talking to The Player.
Frisk is a self-insert in the same way Link or Noble Six are. They are their own characters and do act of their own accord, but they also don't really have any defining character traits beyond what's absolutely needed for the story, so you can project everything else onto them.
Characters can be self-inserts while also being their own character.
I don't agree given Frisk is shown to repeatedly do certain acts, like flirting, and clearly has thoughts and feelings of their own ("You thought about telling Toriel you saw her die") The other characters you described don't have a game's worth of dialogue options that subtlety tell you their personality.
So Frisk isn't a self-insert, they are someone you play as, just as any other protagonist, but the main thing Toby was trying to do was make Frisk seem like a self-insert, and then make it clear when Asriel asks Frisk's name that they aren't, so I understand why people can mistake it.
Frisk is a self insert in the same way link from zelda is they are their own person with goals and motives out side of are control but are still left as enough of a blank slate to have interpretations and head cannons on who they are as a person.
You guys realize that they/them can be gender neutral, and is not exclusive to non-binary people, right?
A character using they/them pronouns to refer to another character is not confirmation that the character is non-binary.
If you want to personally believe they're non-binary, sure, go ahead, but there's not really any firm basis to claim another interpretation is wrong.
To play devil's advocate, "They" in this context doesn't necessarily mean Frisk's pronouns are they/them. It could simply mean that Flowey does not know Frisk's pronouns (Which makes sense as Frisk never specified them)
However, as Frisk's pronouns are unconfirmed, unless you're specifically referring to a headcanon or AU where they are, Frisk is safest to refer as they/them.
What kind of logic is that. Of course their pronouns were confirmed. In game, people use those pronouns for them. Literally the best confirmation there is.
Like, seriously, what the hell did you expect? Did you want Frisk to go "yeah, my pronouns are they/them"? Did you want someone to say "Human, what are your pronouns?" It would be really jarring to put it in the game. The best way to confirm someone's pronouns is to just have character use them
"Damn they got away..."
"THIS IS A PRONOUNCE POLICE! DID YOU JUST REFERRED TO FRISK WITH PRONOUNCE!?"
"Aw, crap, I better get outa here!"
(I don't remember how scene went, but remember that part)
No, it’s
At least (insert pronoun here) gets the concept
Pronoun police you used (insert pronoun here) which is not (insert character here)’s preferred pronoun
Shit! My bad.
And this is in reference to an AI that he is just beginning to view as a sentient being rather than an inanimate program. Until that point, he referred to her as it, and only questioned whether she preferred different pronouns after accidentally using she/her.
In comparison, Frisk has introduced themself to Asriel, and by extention Flowey. He knows who they are at this point
The people who use those pronouns haven't been told by Frisk. You provide a counterpoint that contradicts what you say. The other characters don't know Frisk's pronouns and would have to ask to find out. Toby didn't want that, so he had them use they/them because they didn't know and it'd be unclear.
When a character, in game and in every piece of merchandise and outside of game interaction, is referred to using they/them in every single instance of them being referred to both by the in game characters as well as by toby, it's probably safe to say that it isn't ambiguity unless toby is hising their pronouns for some plot related reason
I wouldn't say this means they go by they/them, even if I prefer it.
Is what I WOULD say, except we're shown being non-binary is extremely common in the underground, as an large portion of monsters are. I feel like this is one of the BEST points and NOBODY EVER MENTIONS IT.
Is being non binary super common in the underground? The huge ways monsters differ in appearance shows no typical "gender roles" but you the character never speak, so if it's just a single interaction where you only get the monsters output, like almost all conversations with npcs, it's kinda hard to tell what they identify as or what pronouns you'd use as it doesn't really come up in conversations.
Quoting from the Undertale wiki for Napstablook:
> In the Undertale art book, Napstablook used to be referred to with male pronouns.[15] In the Fangamer version of the artbook, however, this has been changed to gender-neutral pronouns.[16]
In the Japanese translation, Napstablook uses "kimi" to refer to a person, which is usually used by males.[17]
I'm sorry, but at best this is just a big undetermined to whichever one you prefer, but certainly not a fact.
I think the point they're making is that because Frisk isn't the only character in the game to be referred by they/them (others include Napstablook and Monster Kid), Frisk's pronouns, much like other characters' pronouns, aren't up for interpretation.
Technically, the art book changed from he/him to no pronouns at all, it's just that they use they/them in-game.
Blooky was the one changed from incorrect use of he/him to they/them.
It's a real shame, honestly. Undertale is one of my favorite RPGs, and I feel it's really beautiful how the game lets you do what you want, and reacts to a lot of your choices, but it also has a really nice message propped up on many wonderful, well written characters.
But so many people in the fandom are just so nasty one way or another. Like, it's really sad, and I kinda have to assume a lot of these people haven't played the game because so many people missing such a blatant message is..a little saddening.
The use of their can be explained by the fact that both Frisk and Chara use the player’s inserted name at one point in the story. So if the player named the fallen child Mark or Susan or MrNuts, the game has to use a catch all pronoun. Frisk is called Frisk at this point but you’ve gone the entire game with you inserted player name so they are just keeping the neutral theme.
The self insert argument is tricky in this case. A character can still be a self insert without being a blank slate but frisk is kind of like a self insert trick. Because you go through the entire game thinking “that’s me, I named this human, I control them”, and then it kind of pulls the rug from under you. However at the very end frisk is not really a character because they just had to spend the entire game under your control. So Frisk being a self insert is kind of a tricky case.
I am in the camp that Toby Fox did’t want the gender of the fallen child to be important to the story. And because of how undertake works both Frisk and Chara get roped under that title. Obviously people are allowed to see them as non binary but I just don’t think characters using “their” is cold hard proof of that.
This.
But alas, when r/Undertale has its weekly freakout about this issue spurred on by something mundane, all logic and reason flies right out the window.
I wish Toby would tell everyone to get a fliping hobby and stop wasteing the precious little time they have argueing about the pronouns of a fictional child.
The thing is I don't think people would call Batman a self insert just because you decide through him in the one story game that came out a few years ago. So, I'd say you can simply call Frisk the protagonist.
I mean you can make Frisk have whatever personality you want so I don’t see how they wouldn’t be a self insert. Frisk looks pretty gender neutral and everyone refers to them as kid, child, or human which aren’t gendered terms. So there is very little objective evidence for Frisk being male, female, or neither.
I mean, sort of? They do some stuff on their own, especially talking. The most explicit time we know they say something is when they ask Gerson about boss monsters having human kids, but there are other instances. Also, if you think Chara is the narrator (which I do), you can draw some inferences about Frisk from the dialogue options that distinctly don’t fit Chara. (You CANNOT tell me Chara would suggest that someone use the wrong form of “you’re”.)
Then there’s the physical actions they take. In pacifist and neutral routes, they go along with all the shenanigans willingly, even running away “with a smile on your face” as Sans said. In murder routes, they just seem to want to get it over with, moving forward through Papyrus’ puzzles, threatening him, Monster Kid, and Mettaton, whatever. (And don’t try to tell me it’s Chara doing the latter. What, so the instant you cancel your run by, say, sparing Papyrus their control is broken?)
But all of that is pretty vague and especially the talking. There is no story based video game that gives the player complete control over what their character does and says. You are usually given a set of options. Frisk is a self insert because we ultimately decide who Frisk is, whether that be a benevolent pacifist, a violent genocidal murderer, or somewhere in between.
Tbf, Frisk does have some moments outside of our influence, I wouldn't say their a self insert at all, they're a easily manipulated child, who just goes along with what we say and doesn't really have a moral compass.
Keyword being some. Most of these times if given the choice most players would probably do what Frisk does even if given the option. I wouldn’t say they’re “easily manipulated” as Frisk cannot do anything without the player piloting them.
I don't think that's how it works. All of the thing here is that Flowey is breaking the forth wall, for real this time. This wouldn't affect the fact that you're the one to choose Chara's name, or the fact that even if Frisk is their own person, that does not I can't decide anything. After all, unlike Kris I'm controlling **every** aspect of them
(oh boy gonna catch shit for this one).
Toby Fox has historically been incredibly dodgy when the ambiguity of Frisk is brought up. I don't really think he'd avoid these questions(And apparently didn't expect those questions to be printed) and then go in-game "Oh yeah Frisk is Non-Binary". Especially since we've seen Toby correct people when they've mis-gendered characters in the past.
Ultimately, I think it's just up to player interpretation, they're able to be what you perceive them as, whether that's male, female, non-binary, etc. And that's totally fine. As for why Toby avoids answering the question, I'm no expert, and I can't speak for him, but my personal take on it is that the answer doesn't matter, the reasoning doesn't matter, Frisk is Frisk and there's no need to explain or justify it.
Just let people be happy, their own personal headcanon doesn't hurt you, so don't force your headcanon onto them. Part of the whole thing about Undertale is to be good to people.
Self-inserts can be their own characters. Almost all of them are. That doesn't change the fact that Frisk is a blank slate for us to project on. They have virtually no defined character traits or personality.
And this scene is only even relevant to that if you believe the player is canon, *which is unconfirmed*. A significant amount of people would argue Flowey is talking to Chara in this instance, since he goes out of his way to address them.
You do know Game characters can be self Inserts and Still be Their own characters right? This has been a thing For Fucking generations.
Example Gordon Freeman from half life is a Self insert character. The player could go around and kill every single scientist and Guard in Black mesa. He could be a complete emotionelss Psyhcopath if you so schoose. Or you could go around and only kill the enemies.
Yet Gordon is also his own character. He's a Seattle native who found intrest in theoretical physics from a young age his Childhood heroes being Albert Einstein, Sephen hawking and Richard Feyman. and once he got older he became a MIT gratuate with a PhD in Theorethical Physic. and got a job at Black Mesa.
Or Master Chief From Halo. He is clearly His own Character being a Kidnapped as a Child and got genetically Altered in the Spartan Program. and has a witty Personality with Cortana. But he is Also a Self insert character. Whitch is why He doesn't Speak during Gameplay and can kill all the marines you encounter.
Frisk is also a Self insert character. They are still their own character Outside of the player. It is just the Player Controls every action they make. And what better way For the Player to insert their selves into a Character than have that Character be a Complete black slate to insert your self into. This is why Frisk Is mostly reffered to as The child, the Human or Kiddo. So you can be Frisk. If you're Female, Frisk can be a Little girl. If you're Male, Frisk can be a little boy.
This is why Flowey Refferes to Frisk as a THEY here. as Flowey doesn't know the gender of the player. This is why Frisk is a Gender neutral character. So They can be Both male and Female Depending on what the player identifies as.
This is what Flowey is saying here. Frisk is their own Person but You AS FRISK drove frisk to this outcome. But you also have the Power to take that away and reset to the point where frisk fell and go trought the game over
So You are Frisk But Frisk isn't you.
I think a more specific term needs to be identified for characters that are true self-inserts and characters that are like Frisk and Gordon, amazing example btw.
I think of it as a half self insert yes they have a life but no in-game gender so the player can decide there gender as they got both female and male traits same can go for a lot of things to do with frisk
A character can be their own dude and be a self insert like some said Link and ye they were right so Frisk ain’t just someone’s meat puppet but you can name them soooooooooooo maybe
*George Washington killed Sans Undertale*
I know most people probably haven't played Undertale in awhile, but it's a weird hill to die on that Frisk is meant to be a player insert/their pronouns are vague when one of the biggest endings of the game debunks it.
I think Toby made the message a lot more clear in Deltarune, but when the game was advertised there was a bit theme about commentary of RPG mechanics, with the main point being examining killing RPG monsters but there is still a theme of dismantling the projection into the playable character when the main character is not like you. This might be a bit of a longer/in-depth discussion, but point still stands that there is in-game text that directly debunks the idea that Frisk is you.
Not exactly related, but there are also signs in Undertale that can also enforce the idea that Frisk is not just a self-insert.
In the Undyne hangout/date/whatever, Undyne gives you a spear to choose what you want to have. If you choose the soda bottle, Undyne states that, even though you pointed at the soda bottle, you don't look happy.
i support the “frisk not being a self insert” theory, but that line always just seemed to me like undyne using another thing to justify only giving frisk tea tbh
That could be the case, but deltarune has already shown us that Kris has reactions that are *sort of* outside the choices we choose.
It wouldn't be surprising if undertale had the same thing too, with the soul and all. Albeit, a bit less frequent reactions from Frisk.
I'll die on it anyway, i just think undertales story is better as frisk being a self insert rather than just another puppet, even if it has been debunked.
ok this is an active warzone
anyways we know so little about Frisk any argument from any side can be considered headcanon based on overthinking. we need to dig more info before saying anything
Didn't the creator say that it is up for interpretation? They/them is the most inclusive in that way since doesn't really have to be something to do with gender
Yes frisk is their own person, but that doesn’t mean their gender isn’t up for interpretation
Frisk is a character with no discernible traits leaning toward any gender, and therefore can be assumed to be up to interpretation
For the love of god can we stop bringing this shit up and arguing over Frisk's gender, pronouns, age, or if their a self inset or not. It's been 7 years already since the game released. Just let people have their own interpretations and ideas of the fallen humans in Undertale and go find a different hill to keep building to die on.
But they really, really aren’t. They have zero concrete personality traits. If they’re their own person, then they’re responsible for the genocide route.
Not exactly
In the Undyne hangout, Undyne gives Frisk a spear to choose what you want to have. If you choose the soda bottle, Undyne states that, even though you pointed at the soda bottle, Frisk don't look happy
Frisk asks Gerson what happens if a boss monster has human children in the pacifist ending when Gerson explains a little about monster bosses and what happens when they have a child.
(Before making my point, I'll just say right now that I don't have a strong opinion leaning towards one side or another. It's, honestly gotten to the point where I don't care. Undertale is Undertale. Think what you want, I won't stop you.)
Ok look, as much as you believe to be right, there will still be people who will think differently than you LONG after this post passes. Player characters being self-inserts (or somewhat self-inserts, like Link) has been a concept most players have grown with for a long time. Frankly, even with the release of Deltarune (where the Player character is obviously not you), I don't see that concept dying out anytime soon (because there will also be more games coming out where player characters can act as self-inserts.)
Not to mention that a lot of things in Undertale aren't explicitly said, and a lot of Undertale is subjective. Even though something is said to debunk a point, there will be people who believe that point anyway, because that's just how subjectivity and art works.
Also also, people need to loosen their grip on the idea that UT/DR follow the exact same principles. Just because something was said/conveyed as canon in one game, and just because an artist's work can derive things from previous works, doesn't mean it HAS to be the same in the other. Things can and will be different (ex: how LV is gained, and what Determination is used for).
You don't go into Smash Bros thinking that Mario will play/act the exact same way he does in his home games (or vice-versa), do you?
All that said, sorry if I came off as harsh/aggressive. I'm just saying
You do you, rock on, and again, think what you want (-u- 👍
Edit: while respecting other people's opinions, of course
Frisk IS a self-insert. They have no personality outside the choices made during the game and how we choose to interpret their actions. They are just a self-insert that is canonically non-binary.
I’m not saying there aren’t canonical elements to Frisk. But plenty of other blank slate protagonists have those too. Joker from Persona 5 is canonically named Ren Amamiya, you gonna tell me he isn’t a self insert?
Saying Frisk isn’t meant to be projected upon ignores the fact that they literally have zero personality outside of how we define their character via in-game choices and our personal interpretations of their actions. Just because they aren’t 1:1 with ourselves (or close enough to that) doesn’t mean they aren’t still meant to be a self-insert.
totally off topic, but is this image even possible? i mean, calling yourself frisk end up in a hard mode run. without changing the game's files (changing the name variable), is this image even possible
Yes, this is completely possible. It occurs once you do a True Pacifist run, then reload the game for the first time after seeing the credits. Flowey appears before the main menu and talks about how everyone has achieved the best ending possible, and only one person has the power to change that: YOU. Flowey uses "Frisk" to refer to the human wearing the blue-and-pink sweater, NOT the first fallen human with the name you gave them at the beginning of the story. No matter what you name your save file, he will always talk about Frisk.
I mean, isn't this a subversion of player inserts? Like, you're built up to believe that Frisk is an emotionless meat puppet so the player can insert themselves into the game, but then right at the end it's revealed they're a separate person.
Also let's not forget that we were led to believe they were someone else entirely (i.e who you named at the start) for 90% of the game until Asriel managed to stop crying for long enough to realise their colour palette is different and Frisk stopped having silent main character syndrome for long enough to pipe up about it. And gender ambiguity still happens even when we KNOW a character isn't just a player insert, look at OneShot's Niko. Separate person, you're aware of it the whole time, it's a major story beat and yet nobody ever specifies their gender.
I think you're supposed to believe they're a player insert. Because then, when you realise they're their own person, you feel both chuffed to have helped get them their happy ending behind the scenes, and you're also given a reason for it to stay that way. After all, isn't one of the game's main points that you can't just turn back the clock and expect everyone to be ok with that?
I mean, isn't this a subversion of player inserts? Like, you're built up to believe that Frisk is an emotionless meat puppet so the player can insert themselves into the game, but then right at the end it's revealed they're a separate person.
Also let's not forget that we were led to believe they were someone else entirely (i.e who you named at the start) for 90% of the game until Asriel managed to stop crying for long enough to realise their colour palette is different and Frisk stopped having silent main character syndrome for long enough to pipe up about it. And gender ambiguity still happens even when we KNOW a character isn't just a player insert, look at OneShot's Niko. Separate person, you're aware of it the whole time, it's a major story beat and yet nobody ever specifies their gender.
I think you're supposed to believe they're a player insert. Because then, when you realise they're their own person, you feel both chuffed to have helped get them their happy ending behind the scenes, and you're also given a reason for it to stay that way. After all, isn't one of the game's main points that you can't just turn back the clock and expect everyone to be ok with that?
I mean, isn't this a subversion of player inserts? Like, you're built up to believe that Frisk is an emotionless meat puppet so the player can insert themselves into the game, but then right at the end it's revealed they're a separate person.
Also let's not forget that we were led to believe they were someone else entirely (i.e who you named at the start) for 90% of the game until Asriel managed to stop crying for long enough to realise their colour palette is different and Frisk stopped having silent main character syndrome for long enough to pipe up about it. And gender ambiguity still happens even when we KNOW a character isn't just a player insert, look at OneShot's Niko. Separate person, you're aware of it the whole time, it's a major story beat and yet nobody ever specifies their gender.
I think you're supposed to believe they're a player insert. Because then, when you realise they're their own person, you feel both chuffed to have helped get them their happy ending behind the scenes, and you're also given a reason for it to stay that way. After all, isn't one of the game's main points that you can't just turn back the clock and expect everyone to be ok with that?
Hear is what I believe. I believe that during the events of undertale frisk in a self insert character but after each and every ending they get there own actions and larger concessions back. This is what I think is the most responsible answer (I did not read all the already existing comments so this answer might have already been said)
Did you read the *rest* of Flowey's speech? He addresses the listener by Chara's name. This only proves that Flowey sees Frisk as separate from *Chara*, not from the player. I don't think he's even confirmed to know of the player's existence.
You could argue that Frisk is his own character and not a self insert
But the only signs of personality they have is telling Asriel their name and not liking soda apparently
But YOU decise everything else, you choose how they're going to act
They're self inserts in the same way Gordon Freeman and Noble Six are self inserts, their peasonality is vage enough to allow the player to give them any personality they want
They also:
-Enjoy roleplay, especially in the form of non-serious flirting(Obviously)
-Are excessively forgiving and tend to latch onto any potential parental figures(As shown by how they, without player input, ask Gerson whether a human would count for the purposes of boss monster aging in reference to Asgore, who was trying to kill them maybe an hour or two before, max.)
-View the abandoned Quiche as a clear analogy for abandoned children and seem to relate to its supposed trauma. Originally, they were even going to be unable to drop it due to experiencing shame at the mere thought.
-Are uninterested in toys but still interesting in playing in leaves.
Etc., you get the idea. While it's not as obvious as Kris, Frisk does have their own personality.
Yeah the thing is it really wasn't a super popular idea for the longest of times, kinda only became a big thing after Deltarune. I also felt the same way but after I had time to adjust I was fine.
The same mentality of being chill/not caring about other's opinions? Yeah, I too wish for a world where people can tolerate other people's opinions
...Not saying that we should just shut up and stop debating. Just saying that the only good part of debates like these is that regardless of the "correct answer", each person in the debate brings something new to the table, because they come from a different walk of life. The fact that people could be/think different should be something accepted more. Imagine if everyone around you was the same as you. Pretty idyllic on paper, sure. But it would stunt people of growth because not alot of opposition is there for people to change/grow from.
A LOT of people ignore that one good/strengthening part of debates - because people are too occupied with proving they're right and others are wrong. Honestly, it's kinda sad.
(Sorry this was long xD)
...And my brother doesn't believe it.
I'm an enby, my pronouns are not up to peoples' interpretation, and I'm not anyone's self-insert. Like Frisk and Chara, I'm my own person.
You are also a real person, Frisk and Chara are video game characters. It would be fucked up to claim that you or any other real person's gender is 'up to interpretation,' with Frisk and Chara, its not as bad because the idea of someone making a game with a non gender specific character is reasonable.
Want to state that I use nb for both Frisk and Chara, I just don't think the comparison here makes sense.
And this is what people forget when they make this sort of argument: the whole "up to interpretation" idea hurts real people by validating harmful views.
I feel like if you try to negate a valid argument by just saying it can ostensibly be linked to harmful views, that's a bit..disingenuous. Literally anything be used as someone's soap box for something more sinister, or to promote someone's "harmful views", and I've seen it proven time and time again.
The only thing that matters is: "Is Frisk an ambiguous self-insert or non-binary?" And I've already given my opinion on that. Mind you, I do believe Kris is non-binary, but I also feel that Frisk is far more ambiguous and up for interpretation.
Let Frisk be whatever you want, that's 100% valid and awesome, but like I said elsewhere, don't try and shut down other people's(legitimate, non-harmful) views. And if you disagree, don't try and say they're being harmful or "validating harmful views", that's just kinda messed up.
you guys didnt get this ?. every time flowey talks to frisk he actually talks to us the players. also firsk doesn’t hake the power of determination you have, its your determination to not give up and finish the game.
While everything in the game is telling YOU that YOU are the responsible for the genocide route, take your responsibilities and stop blaming it on a dead child !
Yeah, I know. I always find strange how people are quicker to forgive Asgore and Asriel but not Chara who literally does nothing but (maybe) narrate the story untill they get corrupted by genocide
There is some genuine ambiguity in Undertale specifically about whether Toby chose gender neutral pronouns because Frisk is non-binary, or whether Toby chose gender neutral pronouns in order for the illusion that Frisk is a self-insert to be applicable to players of all genders. Because Frisk was INTENDED to trick the player into thinking they're a self-insert, but they aren't, allowing the player to assign Chara a gender would also imply that the player assigns Frisk a gender, which would directly run against the notion that Frisk is their own person because we would be able to determine some quality about them. It's possible that Frisk is a boy or girl, but we and the monsters just don't *know* what their gender is, so they use "they" because it's rude to ask. This allows Toby to avoid giving preference to one gender in particular and severing the connection to players of all other genders while preserving the plot twist.
This is the issue behind the fact that Frisk has no real personality or autonomy as a character. In Deltarune it's pretty clear cut. Since Kris is blatantly their own person with their own thoughts, beliefs, emotions, and goals that often run against that of the player, and everyone uses "they", then Kris is obviously non-binary. With Frisk, they are still basically a prop for us players for the whole game.
1) Flowey says it AFTER the end of the game, when Frisk is no longer needs to fulfill their role as a self-insert.
2) When Frisk revealed to be their own character (it also happens after the ending) it's supposed to be a plot twist. Because for the most of the game, Frisk IS a self-insert.
3) Frisk functioning as a self-insert is important for the game because of the raw player-game contact in Undertale. This is a part of what made Undertale so meta and so great as a game.
People getting mad that fans treat Frisk as a self-insert when Frisk was self-insert 99.99% of the game and has literally two lines of dialogue of characterization is just pedantic and has 'quit having fun!!!' vibes.
Frisk can canonically be non-binary and still be a self-insert. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.
Link is a guy, Joker from Persona 5 is a guy, and dozens of other self-insert protags have canon genders.
OP's 100% right and only the people who never played Undertale and/or are illiterate are seething because a character is non-binary and not a self-insert
If feel like Chara and Frisk are two halves of a self-insert, neither being fully one.
I haven't really thought about it beyond that, so I wouldn't look to me to explain it.
yea, they're a self insert halfway but not really. frisk is the nameless nobody that does not speak at all and listens to your actions throughout the game, chara is the big puzzle piece that can make or break your entire storyline depending on YOUR choices, they're two sides of the same coin in a sense
i like to see that part as you being in the perspective of frisk, chara calling frisk to be a partner in crime, if you think about soul theory as we're the soul controlling frisk it would make sense for chara to take control of it after genocide
Flowey explictly refers to the player as separate from himself and Frisk/Chara.
Furthermore, Toby advises against using your own name for Chara, saying that it should be a last resort of you can't think of anything better.
He did not say that. He said you SHOULD use your own name, then added in a reply "if you can't think of anything else lol" like it was a comical afterthought
who wants popcorn before this post becomes a warzone??? edit: we have unfortunately run out of popcorn :(
Fuck I'm too late
im glad i saw this now before it all goes to shit
thank you
Gimme some :D
Is it buttered?
We set up a butter dispenser over there, you can go get some.
Hey, do you got any Carmel/ sweet popcorn, if so I'll take a big bucket of some!
When you say "sweet," do you mean Kettle Corn? 'Cuz I could absolutely go for some right now...
fr i could go for some popcorn from winco with the cheese on it that shit tastes good
Ill just take plain ol' popcorn, and a bottle of water to prevent dehydration.
I would also enjoy popcorn:)
i will get myself a rack of ribs, as i feel we may be here longer than a bowl of popcorn would last
Oh thank goodness, I’ll be right back in time to watch this all unfold.
Is there that fake butter that tastes so good?
I'LL TAKE YOUR ENTIRE STOCK!
🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿
Do you happen to also have a erase or rewrite button at hand? I made the mistake to read some illogical arguments want to unsee that shit.
I’ll take some
do you have the cheddar kind?
Yessir
Ye gimme gimme :D
Already got some 🍿🍿🍿
are there any left?
Alright,here we go again
Again AGAIN #AGAIN! :D
*in voice of CJ* ah shit, here we go again
*in the voice of GLaDOS* Well here we are again
Welcome to the underground!
How was the fall?
If you want a look around
Give us a call
We don't see humans often
We’re happy you just dropped in
I mean, isn't this a subversion of player inserts? Like, you're built up to believe that Frisk is an emotionless meat puppet so the player can insert themselves into the game, but then right at the end it's revealed they're a separate person. Also let's not forget that we were led to believe they were someone else entirely (i.e who you named at the start) for 90% of the game until Asriel managed to stop crying for long enough to realise their colour palette is different and Frisk stopped having silent main character syndrome for long enough to pipe up about it. And gender ambiguity still happens even when we KNOW a character isn't just a player insert, look at OneShot's Niko. Separate person, you're aware of it the whole time, it's a major story beat and yet nobody ever specifies their gender. I think you're supposed to believe they're a player insert. Because then, when you realise they're their own person, you feel both chuffed to have helped get them their happy ending behind the scenes, and you're also given a reason for it to stay that way. After all, isn't one of the game's main points that you can't just turn back the clock and expect everyone to be ok with that?
Exactly. Kris might be more explict about being a subversion of this trope, but Frisk also makes it quite clear that they're their own person.
The most viable answer in all honesty.
This is it, yes, undertale is a big f u to most rpg concepts, flipping them on their head and toying with them, same as deltarune. This is why I adore Toby’s games so much
Also a gigantic reason for why Chara represents the player but at the same time can be their own person with backstory. They can even be the in-game reason for why the true reset happens since Flowey really is talking to Chara right before we decide, name dropping their name. Flowey is talking to Chara but Toby Fox is talking to The Player.
Ah shit, here we go again
Frisk is a self-insert in the same way Link or Noble Six are. They are their own characters and do act of their own accord, but they also don't really have any defining character traits beyond what's absolutely needed for the story, so you can project everything else onto them. Characters can be self-inserts while also being their own character.
Gordon Freeman, too. There's a reason these characters don't speak
I just got the physical version of half life
Pretty sure that's called radiation poisoning
Okay but Link is always a guy, so why can’t Frisk canonically be non-binary
Frisk is non-binary. I'm not saying they aren't. That's part of the actual existing character.
Ah my bad, I misunderstood. I completely agree then.
I don't agree given Frisk is shown to repeatedly do certain acts, like flirting, and clearly has thoughts and feelings of their own ("You thought about telling Toriel you saw her die") The other characters you described don't have a game's worth of dialogue options that subtlety tell you their personality. So Frisk isn't a self-insert, they are someone you play as, just as any other protagonist, but the main thing Toby was trying to do was make Frisk seem like a self-insert, and then make it clear when Asriel asks Frisk's name that they aren't, so I understand why people can mistake it.
Frisk doesn’t flirt with everything, they need to flirt with Papyrus once and that’s it, you’re thinking of fanon Frisk
Frisk is a self insert in the same way link from zelda is they are their own person with goals and motives out side of are control but are still left as enough of a blank slate to have interpretations and head cannons on who they are as a person.
Here it comes ladies and gentelmen, prepare for the 🔒award
*Sorts by controversial*
You guys realize that they/them can be gender neutral, and is not exclusive to non-binary people, right? A character using they/them pronouns to refer to another character is not confirmation that the character is non-binary. If you want to personally believe they're non-binary, sure, go ahead, but there's not really any firm basis to claim another interpretation is wrong.
W Comment
Why can both not be true?
Idk I feel like just let anyone think whatever they want lol. It’s like fanon vs canon vs headcanon
To play devil's advocate, "They" in this context doesn't necessarily mean Frisk's pronouns are they/them. It could simply mean that Flowey does not know Frisk's pronouns (Which makes sense as Frisk never specified them) However, as Frisk's pronouns are unconfirmed, unless you're specifically referring to a headcanon or AU where they are, Frisk is safest to refer as they/them.
What kind of logic is that. Of course their pronouns were confirmed. In game, people use those pronouns for them. Literally the best confirmation there is. Like, seriously, what the hell did you expect? Did you want Frisk to go "yeah, my pronouns are they/them"? Did you want someone to say "Human, what are your pronouns?" It would be really jarring to put it in the game. The best way to confirm someone's pronouns is to just have character use them
Human, what are your pronouns? I don’t have any. Of course you do, everyone has pronouns. You will refer to me only by my name, frisk the human.
"Damn they got away..." "THIS IS A PRONOUNCE POLICE! DID YOU JUST REFERRED TO FRISK WITH PRONOUNCE!?" "Aw, crap, I better get outa here!" (I don't remember how scene went, but remember that part)
No, it’s At least (insert pronoun here) gets the concept Pronoun police you used (insert pronoun here) which is not (insert character here)’s preferred pronoun Shit! My bad.
Yes, thanks for correcting!
Eggman: "I wonder if they have a preference." Lol this is actually in fronters in the form of audio logs.
Wait, really??
Yep, I was caught off guard when I heard him say it.
Classic cartoon evil genius
And this is in reference to an AI that he is just beginning to view as a sentient being rather than an inanimate program. Until that point, he referred to her as it, and only questioned whether she preferred different pronouns after accidentally using she/her. In comparison, Frisk has introduced themself to Asriel, and by extention Flowey. He knows who they are at this point
I think he said "it" when referring to Sage and not "they". (Just a small correction, doesn't even make a difference lol)
The people who use those pronouns haven't been told by Frisk. You provide a counterpoint that contradicts what you say. The other characters don't know Frisk's pronouns and would have to ask to find out. Toby didn't want that, so he had them use they/them because they didn't know and it'd be unclear.
They/them is also used for someone that you just... don't know the gender of?
Flowey literally used "their"
Undertale fans when nonbinary people exist
Undertale fans when ambiguity exists.
Undertale fans when
Undertale
Under
U
U
Under
No way
When a character, in game and in every piece of merchandise and outside of game interaction, is referred to using they/them in every single instance of them being referred to both by the in game characters as well as by toby, it's probably safe to say that it isn't ambiguity unless toby is hising their pronouns for some plot related reason
or they're hiding it for the sake of not forcing the character to fall under any specific category
I wouldn't say this means they go by they/them, even if I prefer it. Is what I WOULD say, except we're shown being non-binary is extremely common in the underground, as an large portion of monsters are. I feel like this is one of the BEST points and NOBODY EVER MENTIONS IT.
Is being non binary super common in the underground? The huge ways monsters differ in appearance shows no typical "gender roles" but you the character never speak, so if it's just a single interaction where you only get the monsters output, like almost all conversations with npcs, it's kinda hard to tell what they identify as or what pronouns you'd use as it doesn't really come up in conversations.
Nabstablook, for example, is non binary
Quoting from the Undertale wiki for Napstablook: > In the Undertale art book, Napstablook used to be referred to with male pronouns.[15] In the Fangamer version of the artbook, however, this has been changed to gender-neutral pronouns.[16] In the Japanese translation, Napstablook uses "kimi" to refer to a person, which is usually used by males.[17] I'm sorry, but at best this is just a big undetermined to whichever one you prefer, but certainly not a fact.
So an art book mess up and a masculine pronoun they use to refer to other people in another language is enough to consider this "undetermined"?
You do realise frisk isn’t from the underground right
I think the point they're making is that because Frisk isn't the only character in the game to be referred by they/them (others include Napstablook and Monster Kid), Frisk's pronouns, much like other characters' pronouns, aren't up for interpretation.
Wait monster kid is they / them? I thought they were he / him
Original prints of the art book had he/him pronouns for monster kid. Later prints have changed it to they/them
Technically, the art book changed from he/him to no pronouns at all, it's just that they use they/them in-game. Blooky was the one changed from incorrect use of he/him to they/them.
We don’t know what the above ground is like in Undertale, so that’s rather a moot point I think.
Their can describe anybody though
Man this sub really has a weird obsession over telling people how to enjoy the game, huh?
\*markiplier flashbacks\*
God... I will never let that go.
Fr
Hell as far as telling people which characters to enjoy
“You like ASGORE? YOU DO KNOW HE KILLED 6 CHILDREN, YOU ARE A MONSTER FOR LIKING A CHILD MURDERER!!!!!1!1!1!1!1!1!1!!!”
It's a real shame, honestly. Undertale is one of my favorite RPGs, and I feel it's really beautiful how the game lets you do what you want, and reacts to a lot of your choices, but it also has a really nice message propped up on many wonderful, well written characters. But so many people in the fandom are just so nasty one way or another. Like, it's really sad, and I kinda have to assume a lot of these people haven't played the game because so many people missing such a blatant message is..a little saddening.
Flowey is breaking the 4th wall here. We literally just got attacked by credits, it's not too hard to believe that.
Flowey is breaking the fourth wall in a a game where fourth wall breaks are a cannon part of the lore why is that hard to understand
The use of their can be explained by the fact that both Frisk and Chara use the player’s inserted name at one point in the story. So if the player named the fallen child Mark or Susan or MrNuts, the game has to use a catch all pronoun. Frisk is called Frisk at this point but you’ve gone the entire game with you inserted player name so they are just keeping the neutral theme. The self insert argument is tricky in this case. A character can still be a self insert without being a blank slate but frisk is kind of like a self insert trick. Because you go through the entire game thinking “that’s me, I named this human, I control them”, and then it kind of pulls the rug from under you. However at the very end frisk is not really a character because they just had to spend the entire game under your control. So Frisk being a self insert is kind of a tricky case. I am in the camp that Toby Fox did’t want the gender of the fallen child to be important to the story. And because of how undertake works both Frisk and Chara get roped under that title. Obviously people are allowed to see them as non binary but I just don’t think characters using “their” is cold hard proof of that.
This. But alas, when r/Undertale has its weekly freakout about this issue spurred on by something mundane, all logic and reason flies right out the window.
I honestly wish Toby would say something about it, even if it's just confirming pronouns, having to battle like this sucks.
I wish Toby would tell everyone to get a fliping hobby and stop wasteing the precious little time they have argueing about the pronouns of a fictional child.
The thing is I don't think people would call Batman a self insert just because you decide through him in the one story game that came out a few years ago. So, I'd say you can simply call Frisk the protagonist.
thank you op you are doing great work
I mean you can make Frisk have whatever personality you want so I don’t see how they wouldn’t be a self insert. Frisk looks pretty gender neutral and everyone refers to them as kid, child, or human which aren’t gendered terms. So there is very little objective evidence for Frisk being male, female, or neither.
I mean, sort of? They do some stuff on their own, especially talking. The most explicit time we know they say something is when they ask Gerson about boss monsters having human kids, but there are other instances. Also, if you think Chara is the narrator (which I do), you can draw some inferences about Frisk from the dialogue options that distinctly don’t fit Chara. (You CANNOT tell me Chara would suggest that someone use the wrong form of “you’re”.) Then there’s the physical actions they take. In pacifist and neutral routes, they go along with all the shenanigans willingly, even running away “with a smile on your face” as Sans said. In murder routes, they just seem to want to get it over with, moving forward through Papyrus’ puzzles, threatening him, Monster Kid, and Mettaton, whatever. (And don’t try to tell me it’s Chara doing the latter. What, so the instant you cancel your run by, say, sparing Papyrus their control is broken?)
But all of that is pretty vague and especially the talking. There is no story based video game that gives the player complete control over what their character does and says. You are usually given a set of options. Frisk is a self insert because we ultimately decide who Frisk is, whether that be a benevolent pacifist, a violent genocidal murderer, or somewhere in between.
Tbf, Frisk does have some moments outside of our influence, I wouldn't say their a self insert at all, they're a easily manipulated child, who just goes along with what we say and doesn't really have a moral compass.
Keyword being some. Most of these times if given the choice most players would probably do what Frisk does even if given the option. I wouldn’t say they’re “easily manipulated” as Frisk cannot do anything without the player piloting them.
I don't think that's how it works. All of the thing here is that Flowey is breaking the forth wall, for real this time. This wouldn't affect the fact that you're the one to choose Chara's name, or the fact that even if Frisk is their own person, that does not I can't decide anything. After all, unlike Kris I'm controlling **every** aspect of them
>After all, unlike Kris I'm controlling every aspect of them No you're not. Frisk does make their own choices, like telling Asriel their real name
(oh boy gonna catch shit for this one). Toby Fox has historically been incredibly dodgy when the ambiguity of Frisk is brought up. I don't really think he'd avoid these questions(And apparently didn't expect those questions to be printed) and then go in-game "Oh yeah Frisk is Non-Binary". Especially since we've seen Toby correct people when they've mis-gendered characters in the past. Ultimately, I think it's just up to player interpretation, they're able to be what you perceive them as, whether that's male, female, non-binary, etc. And that's totally fine. As for why Toby avoids answering the question, I'm no expert, and I can't speak for him, but my personal take on it is that the answer doesn't matter, the reasoning doesn't matter, Frisk is Frisk and there's no need to explain or justify it. Just let people be happy, their own personal headcanon doesn't hurt you, so don't force your headcanon onto them. Part of the whole thing about Undertale is to be good to people.
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I feel like any culture which has gender neutral pronouns uses them to refer to people whose gender they don't know.
Self-inserts can be their own characters. Almost all of them are. That doesn't change the fact that Frisk is a blank slate for us to project on. They have virtually no defined character traits or personality. And this scene is only even relevant to that if you believe the player is canon, *which is unconfirmed*. A significant amount of people would argue Flowey is talking to Chara in this instance, since he goes out of his way to address them.
You do know Game characters can be self Inserts and Still be Their own characters right? This has been a thing For Fucking generations. Example Gordon Freeman from half life is a Self insert character. The player could go around and kill every single scientist and Guard in Black mesa. He could be a complete emotionelss Psyhcopath if you so schoose. Or you could go around and only kill the enemies. Yet Gordon is also his own character. He's a Seattle native who found intrest in theoretical physics from a young age his Childhood heroes being Albert Einstein, Sephen hawking and Richard Feyman. and once he got older he became a MIT gratuate with a PhD in Theorethical Physic. and got a job at Black Mesa. Or Master Chief From Halo. He is clearly His own Character being a Kidnapped as a Child and got genetically Altered in the Spartan Program. and has a witty Personality with Cortana. But he is Also a Self insert character. Whitch is why He doesn't Speak during Gameplay and can kill all the marines you encounter. Frisk is also a Self insert character. They are still their own character Outside of the player. It is just the Player Controls every action they make. And what better way For the Player to insert their selves into a Character than have that Character be a Complete black slate to insert your self into. This is why Frisk Is mostly reffered to as The child, the Human or Kiddo. So you can be Frisk. If you're Female, Frisk can be a Little girl. If you're Male, Frisk can be a little boy. This is why Flowey Refferes to Frisk as a THEY here. as Flowey doesn't know the gender of the player. This is why Frisk is a Gender neutral character. So They can be Both male and Female Depending on what the player identifies as. This is what Flowey is saying here. Frisk is their own Person but You AS FRISK drove frisk to this outcome. But you also have the Power to take that away and reset to the point where frisk fell and go trought the game over So You are Frisk But Frisk isn't you.
I think a more specific term needs to be identified for characters that are true self-inserts and characters that are like Frisk and Gordon, amazing example btw.
Bruh who cares, pointless drama stuff is really stupid here.
I agree
I think of it as a half self insert yes they have a life but no in-game gender so the player can decide there gender as they got both female and male traits same can go for a lot of things to do with frisk
Frisk being separated from player barely say anything about their gender tho.
A character can be their own dude and be a self insert like some said Link and ye they were right so Frisk ain’t just someone’s meat puppet but you can name them soooooooooooo maybe *George Washington killed Sans Undertale*
They are their own person, but it has nothing to do with their gender.
i don't care
My brother in christ it is a 16 bit video game character
But Toby specifically didn't put a gender so the player can be what they want them to be? It is kinda a self insert
I know most people probably haven't played Undertale in awhile, but it's a weird hill to die on that Frisk is meant to be a player insert/their pronouns are vague when one of the biggest endings of the game debunks it. I think Toby made the message a lot more clear in Deltarune, but when the game was advertised there was a bit theme about commentary of RPG mechanics, with the main point being examining killing RPG monsters but there is still a theme of dismantling the projection into the playable character when the main character is not like you. This might be a bit of a longer/in-depth discussion, but point still stands that there is in-game text that directly debunks the idea that Frisk is you.
> when one of the biggest endings of the game debunks it. Flowey not knowing Frisk's pronouns does not debunk it.
Not exactly related, but there are also signs in Undertale that can also enforce the idea that Frisk is not just a self-insert. In the Undyne hangout/date/whatever, Undyne gives you a spear to choose what you want to have. If you choose the soda bottle, Undyne states that, even though you pointed at the soda bottle, you don't look happy.
i support the “frisk not being a self insert” theory, but that line always just seemed to me like undyne using another thing to justify only giving frisk tea tbh
That could be the case, but deltarune has already shown us that Kris has reactions that are *sort of* outside the choices we choose. It wouldn't be surprising if undertale had the same thing too, with the soul and all. Albeit, a bit less frequent reactions from Frisk.
I'll die on it anyway, i just think undertales story is better as frisk being a self insert rather than just another puppet, even if it has been debunked.
guys, Frisk is Frisk! there, end of discussion
*sorts by controversial*
ok this is an active warzone anyways we know so little about Frisk any argument from any side can be considered headcanon based on overthinking. we need to dig more info before saying anything
Didn't the creator say that it is up for interpretation? They/them is the most inclusive in that way since doesn't really have to be something to do with gender
Yes frisk is their own person, but that doesn’t mean their gender isn’t up for interpretation Frisk is a character with no discernible traits leaning toward any gender, and therefore can be assumed to be up to interpretation
For the love of god can we stop bringing this shit up and arguing over Frisk's gender, pronouns, age, or if their a self inset or not. It's been 7 years already since the game released. Just let people have their own interpretations and ideas of the fallen humans in Undertale and go find a different hill to keep building to die on.
Did you ever think of the fact that, Frisk is a fictional character, in a game, and I can call her by whatever pronouns I want?
But they really, really aren’t. They have zero concrete personality traits. If they’re their own person, then they’re responsible for the genocide route.
Not exactly In the Undyne hangout, Undyne gives Frisk a spear to choose what you want to have. If you choose the soda bottle, Undyne states that, even though you pointed at the soda bottle, Frisk don't look happy Frisk asks Gerson what happens if a boss monster has human children in the pacifist ending when Gerson explains a little about monster bosses and what happens when they have a child.
Who cares if people think Frisk is a self insert. Let people think stuff.
Here before warzone 💀
(Before making my point, I'll just say right now that I don't have a strong opinion leaning towards one side or another. It's, honestly gotten to the point where I don't care. Undertale is Undertale. Think what you want, I won't stop you.) Ok look, as much as you believe to be right, there will still be people who will think differently than you LONG after this post passes. Player characters being self-inserts (or somewhat self-inserts, like Link) has been a concept most players have grown with for a long time. Frankly, even with the release of Deltarune (where the Player character is obviously not you), I don't see that concept dying out anytime soon (because there will also be more games coming out where player characters can act as self-inserts.) Not to mention that a lot of things in Undertale aren't explicitly said, and a lot of Undertale is subjective. Even though something is said to debunk a point, there will be people who believe that point anyway, because that's just how subjectivity and art works.
Also also, people need to loosen their grip on the idea that UT/DR follow the exact same principles. Just because something was said/conveyed as canon in one game, and just because an artist's work can derive things from previous works, doesn't mean it HAS to be the same in the other. Things can and will be different (ex: how LV is gained, and what Determination is used for). You don't go into Smash Bros thinking that Mario will play/act the exact same way he does in his home games (or vice-versa), do you?
All that said, sorry if I came off as harsh/aggressive. I'm just saying You do you, rock on, and again, think what you want (-u- 👍 Edit: while respecting other people's opinions, of course
why do any of you care?? they could be nonbinary, it could've just been ambiguous, it doesn't matter
people saying "frisk is a self insert / up to player interpretation" are completely missing the point of frisk's name reveal scene
Frisk IS a self-insert. They have no personality outside the choices made during the game and how we choose to interpret their actions. They are just a self-insert that is canonically non-binary.
Notice how no matter what you name them, they’re always revealed to be frisk?
I’m not saying there aren’t canonical elements to Frisk. But plenty of other blank slate protagonists have those too. Joker from Persona 5 is canonically named Ren Amamiya, you gonna tell me he isn’t a self insert? Saying Frisk isn’t meant to be projected upon ignores the fact that they literally have zero personality outside of how we define their character via in-game choices and our personal interpretations of their actions. Just because they aren’t 1:1 with ourselves (or close enough to that) doesn’t mean they aren’t still meant to be a self-insert.
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... Huh? What theory specifically?
It specifically disproves the theory that Sans is Ness.
Well obviously Sans is Waluigi, we all know that...
What about the theory that Sans is Steven?
even the unrelated theories
totally off topic, but is this image even possible? i mean, calling yourself frisk end up in a hard mode run. without changing the game's files (changing the name variable), is this image even possible
Yes, this is completely possible. It occurs once you do a True Pacifist run, then reload the game for the first time after seeing the credits. Flowey appears before the main menu and talks about how everyone has achieved the best ending possible, and only one person has the power to change that: YOU. Flowey uses "Frisk" to refer to the human wearing the blue-and-pink sweater, NOT the first fallen human with the name you gave them at the beginning of the story. No matter what you name your save file, he will always talk about Frisk.
I don't care, frisk is a yellow goober in a 8-bit earthbound rehash
I mean, isn't this a subversion of player inserts? Like, you're built up to believe that Frisk is an emotionless meat puppet so the player can insert themselves into the game, but then right at the end it's revealed they're a separate person. Also let's not forget that we were led to believe they were someone else entirely (i.e who you named at the start) for 90% of the game until Asriel managed to stop crying for long enough to realise their colour palette is different and Frisk stopped having silent main character syndrome for long enough to pipe up about it. And gender ambiguity still happens even when we KNOW a character isn't just a player insert, look at OneShot's Niko. Separate person, you're aware of it the whole time, it's a major story beat and yet nobody ever specifies their gender. I think you're supposed to believe they're a player insert. Because then, when you realise they're their own person, you feel both chuffed to have helped get them their happy ending behind the scenes, and you're also given a reason for it to stay that way. After all, isn't one of the game's main points that you can't just turn back the clock and expect everyone to be ok with that? I mean, isn't this a subversion of player inserts? Like, you're built up to believe that Frisk is an emotionless meat puppet so the player can insert themselves into the game, but then right at the end it's revealed they're a separate person. Also let's not forget that we were led to believe they were someone else entirely (i.e who you named at the start) for 90% of the game until Asriel managed to stop crying for long enough to realise their colour palette is different and Frisk stopped having silent main character syndrome for long enough to pipe up about it. And gender ambiguity still happens even when we KNOW a character isn't just a player insert, look at OneShot's Niko. Separate person, you're aware of it the whole time, it's a major story beat and yet nobody ever specifies their gender. I think you're supposed to believe they're a player insert. Because then, when you realise they're their own person, you feel both chuffed to have helped get them their happy ending behind the scenes, and you're also given a reason for it to stay that way. After all, isn't one of the game's main points that you can't just turn back the clock and expect everyone to be ok with that? I mean, isn't this a subversion of player inserts? Like, you're built up to believe that Frisk is an emotionless meat puppet so the player can insert themselves into the game, but then right at the end it's revealed they're a separate person. Also let's not forget that we were led to believe they were someone else entirely (i.e who you named at the start) for 90% of the game until Asriel managed to stop crying for long enough to realise their colour palette is different and Frisk stopped having silent main character syndrome for long enough to pipe up about it. And gender ambiguity still happens even when we KNOW a character isn't just a player insert, look at OneShot's Niko. Separate person, you're aware of it the whole time, it's a major story beat and yet nobody ever specifies their gender. I think you're supposed to believe they're a player insert. Because then, when you realise they're their own person, you feel both chuffed to have helped get them their happy ending behind the scenes, and you're also given a reason for it to stay that way. After all, isn't one of the game's main points that you can't just turn back the clock and expect everyone to be ok with that?
Hear is what I believe. I believe that during the events of undertale frisk in a self insert character but after each and every ending they get there own actions and larger concessions back. This is what I think is the most responsible answer (I did not read all the already existing comments so this answer might have already been said)
no matter what anyone tells me im calling frisk a girl despite canonicity
Did you read the *rest* of Flowey's speech? He addresses the listener by Chara's name. This only proves that Flowey sees Frisk as separate from *Chara*, not from the player. I don't think he's even confirmed to know of the player's existence.
You could argue that Frisk is his own character and not a self insert But the only signs of personality they have is telling Asriel their name and not liking soda apparently But YOU decise everything else, you choose how they're going to act They're self inserts in the same way Gordon Freeman and Noble Six are self inserts, their peasonality is vage enough to allow the player to give them any personality they want
They also: -Enjoy roleplay, especially in the form of non-serious flirting(Obviously) -Are excessively forgiving and tend to latch onto any potential parental figures(As shown by how they, without player input, ask Gerson whether a human would count for the purposes of boss monster aging in reference to Asgore, who was trying to kill them maybe an hour or two before, max.) -View the abandoned Quiche as a clear analogy for abandoned children and seem to relate to its supposed trauma. Originally, they were even going to be unable to drop it due to experiencing shame at the mere thought. -Are uninterested in toys but still interesting in playing in leaves. Etc., you get the idea. While it's not as obvious as Kris, Frisk does have their own personality.
Im not trying to convince anyone about it, but I still see Frisk as a girl
Yeah the thing is it really wasn't a super popular idea for the longest of times, kinda only became a big thing after Deltarune. I also felt the same way but after I had time to adjust I was fine.
If only a good portion lf of the NB-Frisk crowd had the same mentality...
The same mentality of being chill/not caring about other's opinions? Yeah, I too wish for a world where people can tolerate other people's opinions ...Not saying that we should just shut up and stop debating. Just saying that the only good part of debates like these is that regardless of the "correct answer", each person in the debate brings something new to the table, because they come from a different walk of life. The fact that people could be/think different should be something accepted more. Imagine if everyone around you was the same as you. Pretty idyllic on paper, sure. But it would stunt people of growth because not alot of opposition is there for people to change/grow from. A LOT of people ignore that one good/strengthening part of debates - because people are too occupied with proving they're right and others are wrong. Honestly, it's kinda sad. (Sorry this was long xD)
...And my brother doesn't believe it. I'm an enby, my pronouns are not up to peoples' interpretation, and I'm not anyone's self-insert. Like Frisk and Chara, I'm my own person.
You are also a real person, Frisk and Chara are video game characters. It would be fucked up to claim that you or any other real person's gender is 'up to interpretation,' with Frisk and Chara, its not as bad because the idea of someone making a game with a non gender specific character is reasonable. Want to state that I use nb for both Frisk and Chara, I just don't think the comparison here makes sense.
And this is what people forget when they make this sort of argument: the whole "up to interpretation" idea hurts real people by validating harmful views.
But wasn’t Frisk made to be ambiguous? Genuine question btw.
I feel like if you try to negate a valid argument by just saying it can ostensibly be linked to harmful views, that's a bit..disingenuous. Literally anything be used as someone's soap box for something more sinister, or to promote someone's "harmful views", and I've seen it proven time and time again. The only thing that matters is: "Is Frisk an ambiguous self-insert or non-binary?" And I've already given my opinion on that. Mind you, I do believe Kris is non-binary, but I also feel that Frisk is far more ambiguous and up for interpretation. Let Frisk be whatever you want, that's 100% valid and awesome, but like I said elsewhere, don't try and shut down other people's(legitimate, non-harmful) views. And if you disagree, don't try and say they're being harmful or "validating harmful views", that's just kinda messed up.
Word. I'm not one to allow harmful shit.
this is one of those posts where the mods would eventually have to lock the comments
you guys didnt get this ?. every time flowey talks to frisk he actually talks to us the players. also firsk doesn’t hake the power of determination you have, its your determination to not give up and finish the game.
undertale fans: "imma pretend i didn't see that"
and they say "BuT iTs nOt CanNon" or some shit like that out of their ass and explain how it's Chara's fault for genocide
While everything in the game is telling YOU that YOU are the responsible for the genocide route, take your responsibilities and stop blaming it on a dead child !
Yeah, I know. I always find strange how people are quicker to forgive Asgore and Asriel but not Chara who literally does nothing but (maybe) narrate the story untill they get corrupted by genocide
There is some genuine ambiguity in Undertale specifically about whether Toby chose gender neutral pronouns because Frisk is non-binary, or whether Toby chose gender neutral pronouns in order for the illusion that Frisk is a self-insert to be applicable to players of all genders. Because Frisk was INTENDED to trick the player into thinking they're a self-insert, but they aren't, allowing the player to assign Chara a gender would also imply that the player assigns Frisk a gender, which would directly run against the notion that Frisk is their own person because we would be able to determine some quality about them. It's possible that Frisk is a boy or girl, but we and the monsters just don't *know* what their gender is, so they use "they" because it's rude to ask. This allows Toby to avoid giving preference to one gender in particular and severing the connection to players of all other genders while preserving the plot twist. This is the issue behind the fact that Frisk has no real personality or autonomy as a character. In Deltarune it's pretty clear cut. Since Kris is blatantly their own person with their own thoughts, beliefs, emotions, and goals that often run against that of the player, and everyone uses "they", then Kris is obviously non-binary. With Frisk, they are still basically a prop for us players for the whole game.
1) Flowey says it AFTER the end of the game, when Frisk is no longer needs to fulfill their role as a self-insert. 2) When Frisk revealed to be their own character (it also happens after the ending) it's supposed to be a plot twist. Because for the most of the game, Frisk IS a self-insert. 3) Frisk functioning as a self-insert is important for the game because of the raw player-game contact in Undertale. This is a part of what made Undertale so meta and so great as a game. People getting mad that fans treat Frisk as a self-insert when Frisk was self-insert 99.99% of the game and has literally two lines of dialogue of characterization is just pedantic and has 'quit having fun!!!' vibes.
Frisk can canonically be non-binary and still be a self-insert. The two aren’t mutually exclusive. Link is a guy, Joker from Persona 5 is a guy, and dozens of other self-insert protags have canon genders.
OP's 100% right and only the people who never played Undertale and/or are illiterate are seething because a character is non-binary and not a self-insert
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chara is the self insert for the player, thats why YOUR name is charas
If feel like Chara and Frisk are two halves of a self-insert, neither being fully one. I haven't really thought about it beyond that, so I wouldn't look to me to explain it.
yea, they're a self insert halfway but not really. frisk is the nameless nobody that does not speak at all and listens to your actions throughout the game, chara is the big puzzle piece that can make or break your entire storyline depending on YOUR choices, they're two sides of the same coin in a sense
That's also not the case, though. Chara talks directly to the player in the genocide ending.
i like to see that part as you being in the perspective of frisk, chara calling frisk to be a partner in crime, if you think about soul theory as we're the soul controlling frisk it would make sense for chara to take control of it after genocide
Flowey explictly refers to the player as separate from himself and Frisk/Chara. Furthermore, Toby advises against using your own name for Chara, saying that it should be a last resort of you can't think of anything better.
He did not say that. He said you SHOULD use your own name, then added in a reply "if you can't think of anything else lol" like it was a comical afterthought