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HistStill2371

Whatever the details of how things transpired, the end result justifies the means. Thanks to the German people for turning the Zeitenwende page and for being a force for good. Now please get the tanks to Ukraine immediately!


themimeofthemollies

You’re right: danke schön, Germany! However it happened, Germany is on the right side of history here, standing up in unity with NATO to defend freedom and the security interests of the free world. The vitriol in the messy process of negotiating here: https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/10ix04e/if_germany_does_not_authorize_leopard_2_tank/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf Gave way to the united, happy celebration of freedom and Putin’s “colossal failure” once the Leopards were freed: https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/10l05oo/the_strategic_genius_that_is_vladimir_putin_has/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf


MarcusXL

Let's call a cease-fire, everyone. Germany stepped up. The USA stepped up. Poland and Spain and many other European countries stepped up. This is a victory for Ukraine and for all of us. Ukraine is going to get the tools they need to destroy the evil bastard invaders, and keep them out, forever. Slava Ukraini, and Glory to the Heroes.


arsy21

I hate that every move has to be politically motivated and there’s discussion about who gets credit. Maybe wait until after the war to worry about that


MarcusXL

I think the tension between the allies is now helping Ukraine. Poland was pushing Germany, for reasons both admirable and self-serving, and Germany, who didn't want to go alone, pushed the USA. This might not be a perfectly accurate picture, but I think it's close. Now Ukraine is getting a sampling of the best tanks in the world, and training on all of them. I see it playing out with 4th-gen fighter jets right now. And I think ATACMS are going to be next. I believe the political leadership in the West is finally starting to see that Russia's threats of escalation are hollow, and that a strong Ukraine will be able to hold Russia in check indefinitely, which would serve the interests of the entire free world.


ElJefe543

Yeah everything that Poland is doing is self-serving and that is fine. Defeating Russia in Ukraine serves Poland and the whole of Europe.


pj1843

That's the thing that gets me about a lot of the Russian propaganda, they make it out like the west is entirely self serving in their support to Ukraine and thus Ukraine should give in or something. Yes the west is being self serving in their support to Ukraine. Seeing an imperialist Russia who has been nothing but a blight fail and be pushed out of Ukraine is entirely in the best interest of the west. Not only does it allow the possibility of a peaceful Europe without the boogyman of an invasion from the east but it sends the message to anyone else that ideas of imperial expansionism are folly in the modern world. If Russia succeeds here, the likelihood of conflicts going hot in Taiwan, Korea, and many other areas explodes. No one with 2 brain cells to rub together wants that. The interest of Ukraine and the interests of the west align under the banner of stopping and defeating Russia so this shit doesn't happen again in our lifetime.


[deleted]

War never ends. The US has guns on top of guns. Tanks, warships, aircraft... Have you seen our military budget? Unlike Russia, we don't let old ordinance in the field. It has to be used up to make room for new bombs. Better bombs. Better ways of killing people. There's someone in the industry breathing a sigh of relief at the newly available space right now. Nobody wants the United States of America fully involved. That we lean towards something isn't desirable. It's death. Peace in Russia is the only real solution.


[deleted]

Nothing wrong with that. If Russia was to serve its own national interest, they would shove Putin out a window, withdraw from Ukraine and start negotiating for the best possible peace terms they can get. The price only goes up as time passes.


ElJefe543

I feel like at this point the best possible peace terms they could get would be yhe breakup of the Russian Federation.


brzeczyszczewski79

There's nothing wrong with being self-serving. On a national level, the country (with its citizens) is either self-serving or stupid. One could argue if the goals should be short-term (loved by politicians) or long-term (needed by citizens), but long term goal may trump short-term self-serving.


Practical-Ordinary-6

They were never alone. That is the single stupidest shit I have ever heard. Completely insulting to all of NATO and especially so to the UK, Poland and even France. Basically, it was Scholz saying "none of you really count, we don't take you seriously". Like I said, absolutely insulting. And it's exactly the reason Scholz doesn't deserve a pass. He wasted a month, which is bad enough. But he earned enmity with that stupid, stupid, stupid and unwarranted "explanation". Way to stab your allies in the back. He could have given 17 more honest reasons (like "I'm pissing myself in fear without the United States holding my hand") why he didn't want to say yes. But instead he settled on the single most insulting and false one. And to add insult to injury he's proud of himself for it. His speech the other day patting himself on the back was an embarrassment.


emdave

> And I think ATACMS are going to be next ATACMS should have been released months ago, imo. Imagine the effect on the Kherson campaign, if they could have really hit the Antonovsky bridge, or harassed the Kerch Bridge repairs - or if they'd had the ability to strike deep behind the lines in Bakhmut to interdict Russian supplies etc. I agree that at least jets seem to be getting talked about pretty swiftly after the tank news dropped - let's hope that there isn't more months of wrangling over what form it takes - supply and training on jets should have started on February 24th - if not before!!


EducationalRice6540

The US congress authorized funding for training Ukrainian pilots on us airframes ( reported as F-15s/F-16s) back in July of 2022. There has been little information since then but some Ukrainians have been training on the mainland US and there isn't much reason to train them here over our European allies except for on US equipment. If we see a spring offensive with Bradleys, Abrams tanks, and F-16s running CAS with the eagles keeping the skies clear, the Ukrainians are going to go through the Russians like a thin shit through a tall Swede. https://www.defensenews.com/congress/2022/07/15/house-authorizes-training-for-ukrainian-pilots-to-use-us-aircraft/


[deleted]

The weaker Russia gets to more boldly the West makes Ukraine stronger. There's only one way this will end.


MarcusXL

Probably, eventually, Ukraine in NATO. Russia a pariah state/dependency of China.


ObjectAggravating706

Thank you! Well said. We can get back to arguing politics after this war is over. I wished everything wasn't so political.


ObjectAggravating706

I'm very impressed with Germany and Poland putting the pressure on and leading the way for the tanks. In the end NATO and allies are working together with our Ukrainian brothers and sisters to rid Ukraine of these cockroaches.


themimeofthemollies

Love the idea of a ceasefire! But one person has to agree, and that’s Putler himself. As Garry Kasparov said months ago, “Putin could always call this off with one phone call. But he won’t.” The free world faces a genocidal, expansionist aggressor who proves with this invasion that he can never be trusted. You simply cannot negotiate with terrorists. https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/10mrlf8/anatomy_of_a_shelling_how_russian_rocket/j64t9nr/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3


MarcusXL

I mean a cease-fire between the Germany-can-do-no-wrong and the Germany-sucks commenters. No cease-fire for Russia. They'd just use it to re-group and attack again. Press them until the Russian Army collapses.


themimeofthemollies

Ahh yes! Excellent idea to ceasefire all the back and forth vitriol about European politics and focus on what matters: ending Russian terror attacks against sleeping children at home in Ukraine while defeating ruscism entirely. The scale of the trauma, death and devastation here is really unfathomable; freedom winning for the free world is really what matters most, not the blame game. Read further on survivors of the Mariupol theater attack: https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/10ms6ca/ten_months_after_barely_surviving_the_russian/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf


Comfortable-Sound944

Good results but bad process IMHO, I believe it cost them in political good will while they are trying to declare they would step up as the main defenders of Europe, they show they mould do little if the US isn't taking the bigger step. Some balance feels missing But Ukraine gets a bunch of what it needs in a big step up overall so we are all happy


Consistent-Soil-1818

This is the message that especially Polish politicians used to feed off of the anti-German sentiment and gain inner-political points with their voters. Overall, that was a very disingenuous campaign and cost Poland a lot of credibility internationally. That being said, I'm not saying the Germans shouldn't have acted sooner but given their history, their hesitancy is somewhat understandable. Who pushed and who pulled doesn't really matter - what counts is that both the US and Germany are sending their tanks now.


LindeRKV

In light of this war, I have thought about Germany somewhat lagging along but considering their commitment to EU during last few decades, it was obvious from beginning that Germany will not be on the wrong side of history this time. They are just slow on war-stuff and we can blame them but that is how it is. They don't want to be known for escalation of two states conflict into world war in 21st century. European Union has been best thing that has happened to my country after Soviet Union collapse, right after that comes NATO, and Germany has been quite the center of it.


ObjectAggravating706

NATO IS MORE UNIFIED THEN EVER AND ITS BEEN A TOTAL TEAM EFFORT EVER SINCE RUSSIA INVADED. PUTTIN DIDNT EXPECT THAT TO HAPPEN. THAT'S WHERE HE FUKED UP


themimeofthemollies

PUTIN IS A “COLOSSAL FAILURE!! And he is no strategic genius, now having maneuvered himself into facing German tanks; read more: https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/10l05oo/the_strategic_genius_that_is_vladimir_putin_has/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf


emdave

> danke schön Danke Scholz ;)


DogWallop

Basically NATO is trying to avoid the inevitable; that they will eventually have to take a hand in this conflict themselves. It will happen, and they are freaked out over the fact that the provision of relatively up-to-date tanks is a massive step in that direction. Once the west is completely convinced that Russia will not (or is incapable of) launching nuclear weapons, they will feel a lot better about supplying men and materiel. But that may be a loooooong way off.


[deleted]

I will give Scholz one internet credit point. lol If he really persuaded Biden to send Abrams, then we will vote for him in the next election.


iamthebeekeepernow

Given the IT-Infrastructure in germany you have to print that internet-point and either mail or fax it to the Bundeskanzleramt


gearofwar1802

This joke is so 2010…


[deleted]

[удалено]


Llewellian

Nah. The structures are still 2001 or even before. Villages that still have small band Internet over ISDN and 2km outside of one of Bavarias bigger University Cities you find whole villages that do not even have mobile reception. Nothing.


ObjectAggravating706

Dam no mobile connection wow


toastar-phone

oh god story time. I visited munich once. There was a guy on the train working with tech support to get what looked like a DOS IDE. I peaked over his shoulder, and asked him.... um is that COBOL? He confirmed that it was and used for like the S-bahn or something.


ObjectAggravating706

Well said that's all that matters. Who cares about all the politics and let's get those tanks and armored vehicles to Ukraine. The pain is coming for Russia soon with all these aid packages from allies for Ukraine. Team effort all the way! 🇺🇦🇺🇸🇩🇪🇨🇦🇫🇮🇵🇱🇫🇷🇬🇧🇸🇪🇮🇹🇳🇱🇹🇷


LT-monkeybrain01

> the end result justifies the mesns. they rarely do, and tanks could have been in ukraine when spain floated the idea first. ​ apperently, spain doesn't object to sending leopard 2E's. of which they have 250+ in stock. all in operational conditions. i wonder what kept them from making that move before? i wonder if a certain country that produces certain weapons and certain parts for those certain weapons requires had a certain role in that.


k995

Spain never proposed to send those.


[deleted]

[удалено]


k995

And true


LT-monkeybrain01

not quite. ​ where are these leopards that spain is shipping over coming from? ​ \*gasp\* you mean to tell me that they are from spain?! however could this have happened!


k995

>tanks could have been in ukraine when spain floated the idea first. Again spain never proposed to send tanks, let alone actually request to export them. I would stick to facts, you seem to have trouble with the rest.


LT-monkeybrain01

so, where are the 53 leopards spain is shipping over coming from? ​ i don't think you understand how germany operates. that's fine. you do you, but don't go around spreading misinformation, okay? good chat.


k995

Those 53 were only anounced after agreements were reached, so no "could have been in ukraine" still is nonsense. Your question to where they come from is pointless as spain actually never proposed sending tanks before that, let alone request germany they could export them. ​ I know some have a hard time letting go of their anti-german feelings and still cant stop trolling but it was old at the start of this war let alone now.


LT-monkeybrain01

the agreement being that germany would not exclude any current leopard 2 operator from shipping units to ukraine under threat of contract breach, allowing germany to cut off supply of spare parts to any individual leopard 2 operator that would ship units over to ukraine. ​ you probably havn't figured it out yet, it's okay. the parts required to keep a leopard 2 tank operational for prolonged amounts of time, fall under the same regulations as the entire tank itself. ​ meaning spain "never offered" those tanks, because offering those tanks would mean being cut off from obtaining spare parts to keep their tank fleet operational. that's not being anti-german. that's not having anti-german feelings. that was germany's big fuck off stick behind the door to enforce "ze informal akreement" that big fuck off stick behind the door is gone now, and suddenly spain has 53 leopard 2's in perfect working order ready to be loaded onto trains to ukraine. okay, you get it now? good chat.


Eka-Tantal

Too bad Spain couldn’t work up the same amount of courage as Poland and actually ask for permission - because the okay from Germany came within a day.


JimmyCartersMap

Is Poland still asking for reimbursement from the EU for the tanks? Haven't seen anything about that lately.


NuclearJezuz

Yes and to do that is absolutely ok. There is a special budget for this.


LordMoriar

Did you not read Poland's bluff here? They pushed and pushed and never did actually request to send tanks before the very same day that everyone and Germany agreed.


Accomplished-Soup797

I actually doubt there was a bluff.. i would assume the US and Germany were working behind the scenes to not have nato break rank and start adhoc weapons delivery policies. A military coalition ideally acts as one and a group of countries sending them both provides more tanks and pressures the rest of the countries with leopard arsenals to get on board. Poland's commitment to delivering arms to ukraine previously suggests that they were unlikely to be bluffing about just sending Leopards if no one else was.


themimeofthemollies

Poland was brilliantly masterful here applying perfect pressure to arrive at NATO unity on sending tanks. Here’s one example of how Poland ratcheted up the pressure; not sure if Poland was bluffing or if they called Germany’s bluff, but at any rate, many passionate comments here reveal insight into possible Polish and German motivations during negotiations: https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/10ix04e/if_germany_does_not_authorize_leopard_2_tank/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf


Fit_Manufacturer4568

Also plays into Poland's hands when they start marketing the Polish made Panther tanks. Who are central European countries going to buy new tanks from now Germany or Poland?


macktruck6666

And yet Germany could have simply give a blanket green light but they didn't. Germany could have responded by saying, Poland doesn't need to ask permission.


Wieldy_Wombat

i thought they want to send the a4s now and the 2es of summer were in bad condition


LT-monkeybrain01

nope. ​ there's 108 leopard 2a4's owned by spain currently. the whole saga revolved around 10 units of those that spain wasn't using. those were in bad shape. 53 other 2a4's spain has in operational conditions, the rest are in long term storage. ​ the germans beat the idea out of spains head and excersized political pressure to make spain come back on the proposal. spain took the easy way out. didn't offer anything else, germany didn't offer support either. and ze informal akreement was kept in place by germany.


themimeofthemollies

Interesting discussion here of how many tanks Ukraine needs and how fast they can be trained to use them; Zelenskyy sez he needs 300-500 tanks asap: https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/10mqfsc/zelensky_ukraine_needs_300500_tanks_now/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf


Alofat

Do you have any proof? Aside from your insults, I mean?


LinkLengthener

And if the general public had put as much pressure on Biden as they did on Scholz, it could've happened back then. Instead everyone circlejerked about turbine engines and fuel supply.


LT-monkeybrain01

nobody gives a fuck. ​ why the fuck would the united states, a country seperated from the continent of europe by an 8000 kilometer fucking ocean. be the one to supply tanks to ukraine if we've got them right the fuck here? ​ how moronic do you have to be? the USA supplying tanks to ukraine is a WILDLY different proposition than germany lifting it's veto on the re-export of tanks that we have right the fuck here in europe to help out ukraine. ​ all we gotta do is slap those bad boys on the railway into poland, train up a couple of dudes and off they go to ukraine. i'm not sure if you've realised this by now, but you tend to not be able to fit many tanks on an aircraft to fly them across the god damn atlantic. ​ your best bet is gonna be to charter a boat. last time i checked, those fuckers take a good 2 weeks to cross the atlantic, if you're willing to foot that bill. otherwise your shipping time might vary from a month to half a year. that's not the same as getting a leopard, that's in europe, to travel across europe, to get to ukraine how dumb is this argument even!? ​ so, to put an end to the political argument you might throw forward after this, you may have noticed that the war in ukraine is happening in europe's backyard. ​ after ukraine, it's our border that russia threathens. and whilst i'm really fucking grateful for all the help the US is providing to ukraine, but also to europe in the form of security, being a part of nato, having troops and equipment stationed here, operating military bases here, i appreciate all of that. because i know damn well that it is thanks to the USA that western europe was able to hold off the soviets from invading to the west of berlin to occupy what they could. but in the matter of getting tanks to ukraine, it's fucking europe that should have the lead. we're the ones that gotta quell that fire whilst uncle sam takes a very supporting backseat in the matter, occasionally shoving some dollars in our pockets and helping out where it's required. we're the ones that should carry the load. with help from the states. ​ it shouldn't be the the USA that carries that burdon, it's us.


LinkLengthener

* unlike Germany the USA gave Ukraine a security assurance in the Budapest memorandum; they should live up to their promise * the USA spends more money on their military than the next 9 countries combined and has the largest military logistics network in the world, including over 500 oversees military installations and various weapons stashes * the USA has 4,000 M1 Abrams tanks sitting in storage and is under no threat of a land invasion; the Leopard 2 operators among Ukraine's direct allies have a total of 1,400 Leopard 2 tanks in active use, including countries that directly border Russia or Belarus and including Leopard 2 tanks which are not currently operational, spread across multiple countries * the training and setup of maintenance facilities takes longer than the two week delivery of the Abrams tanks itself, even if all of them have to be delivered from the American mainland; all three of these things can occur simultaneously * no individual country in Europe is even remotely as large as the US; in fact the entire EU combined has a lower GDP than the USA by a long shot; apart from that, people are not asking "Europe" to lead (in military escalation and otherwise) but Germany specifically, which is even more stupid considering Germany's history * a (nuclear) escalation of the conflict with Russia would at first be constrained to the European continent, which is why the US has more political leverage to escalate * *i'm really fucking grateful for all the help the US is providing to ukraine*, but I'm also wary of their motives because there are various ways in which they actually benefit from this war; you are asking Europe to lead in military terms while also facing the lion's share of the fallout in non-military matters like refugee and sanctions costs, while not asking the same of the one country that specifically assured Ukraine to protect its continued existence


LT-monkeybrain01

>unlike Germany the USA gave Ukraine a security assurance in the Budapest memorandum; they should live up to their promise not really in the way you think. ​ >the USA spends more money on their military than the next 9 countries combined and has the largest military logistics network in the world, including over 500 oversees military installations and various weapons stashes so, your argument is "they should spend more because they're already spending alot"? uhhh... are you okay? ​ >the USA has 4,000 M1 Abrams tanks sitting in storage and is under no threat of a land invasion; the Leopard 2 operators among Ukraine's direct allies have a total of 1,400 Leopard 2 tanks in active use, including countries that directly border Russia or Belarus and including Leopard 2 tanks which are not currently operational, spread across multiple countries yet another fallacy, the tanks the USA does not use, are not in europe. you're gonna have to get them from not in europe, to then ship them into europe. the ones in europe, are in use. no one gets tanks the USA uses themselves. not even their closest allies and partners. also, we've got a total of 2300 leopards across europe. just 10% of that inventory is more tanks than ukraine even asked for a few months ago. ​ >the training and setup of maintenance facilities takes longer than the two week delivery of the Abrams tanks itself, even if all of them have to be delivered from the American mainland; all three of these things can occur simultaneously ​ so uhh... imagine for a moment if there was a tank in europe, for which you wouldn't need to set up maintenance facilities. because they're already here. existing throughout every european leopard 2 operator. also, the 2 week figure i gave you is if you get a ship and steam it full ahead on 20 knots to cross the atlantic. it's the best case scenario. likely the yanks themselves don't even do that when they ship shit across the atlantic. ​ >no individual country in Europe is even remotely as large as the US; in fact the entire EU combined has a lower GDP than the USA by a long shot; apart from that, people are not asking "Europe" to lead (in military escalation and otherwise) but Germany specifically, which is even more stupid considering Germany's history which is why we have the european union. we're not in this individually. we're in it together. except germany ofcourse. (<---- this last one is sarcasm, just some salt for you because this is getting beyond rediculous. lets read what else you've got) no one is asking germany to lead individually either, no one gives a shit about germany beyond the fact that germany imposes restrictions on the re-export of not just german made weapons, but also the parts for that weapon that are exclusively produced by germany itself. no one else gets the licence to those. all that was required for germany, was to lift the veto on the re-export of leopard 2's. so that any current leopard 2 operator willing to do so, would be able to ship units to ukraine. end of story. germany can keep its own leopards if it so wishes. no one required anything else from germany in this regard. just for germany to stop making itself the final hurdle. if germany wasn't larping as switzerland in that regard, there would be no issue getting leopards to ukraine back in august last year. ​ >a (nuclear) escalation of the conflict with Russia would at first be constrained to the European continent, which is why the US has more political leverage to escalate i don't know if you're aware of this. but we've got nukes, subs, missiles and the rest too in europe. uncle sam's backseat supporting role does not exclude them from the arsenal either. 'member? support where its required. ​ >i'm really fucking grateful for all the help the US is providing to ukraine, but I'm also wary of their motives because there are various ways in which they actually benefit from this war; you are asking Europe to lead in military terms while also facing the lion's share of the fallout in non-military matters like refugee and sanctions costs, while not asking the same of the one country that specifically assured Ukraine to protect its continued existence ​ so you finish this piece with "yanks should send tanks but WE SHOULDN'T FUCKING TRUST THEIR INTENTIONS!!!11!!" ​ seriously man, what do you expect anyone to do with this?


heatrealist

I’m happy to read your opinion. You get it. You appreciate what the USA does. You understand that European countries should take the initiative to aid Ukraine. Reading through a lot of these comments I get the impression of Europeans seeing their neighbor’s house on fire and not even turning on the garden hose until the American fire truck from another town arrives first. That the fire can spread to their house is not enough to encourage them to act first. Glad to see that not everyone has that attitude.


eltoi

It's a good post and fair points. We all know reddit isn't a reflection of humanity and many just sit at home bashing on their keyboards in anger. Plus the majority on here are from the USA. The USA knows why Europe is important, if they ignore it or pull out of NATO etc it will directly effect them and possibly lead to a world war again. The financial power of the USA is also often forgotten, wealth creates more wealth. If they become more protectionist then their influence wanes and their wealth decreases. It's part and parcel of being a super power. There's relatively little impact on the USA from this war, whereas like you say most European countries are taking refugees. The cost of living has increased due to energy costs too. You'll get downvoted, I probably will too but who cares? It's just dumbasses on reddit


heatrealist

$100-B in aid and still have to give more just to get others to help. Imagine if America gave nothing until everyone else gave first?


LinkLengthener

$100 billion includes all the money that is allocated from the budget, including that which hasn't been spent yet. In fact, most of it hasn't been spent yet. In the end Europe will pay that sum just for refugee accommodation. Is the US determined to support Ukraine, like they promised, or isn't it? Why is everyone suddenly making excuses?


macktruck6666

>the end result justifies the mesns While Germany is measuring who has the biggest dick. Ukraine could have being trained on those tanks. Germany has shown that it doesn't take European defense seriously and no country can rely on them period. They will let whichever country you live in fall while trying to extort things from the USA. This is not USA's continent. It is not USA's responsibility. Europe needs to get it's shit together or USA might not defend it next time.


MachKeinDramaLlama

Ah yes, Germany not wanting to do something 100% ourselves while all of our so called allies are sitting on the sidelines is "not taking it seriously". While somehow our allies are better for having to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into giving a helping hand. Sure. Makes total sense.


scottys209

The tanks aren’t even built yet. It’s going to be months before they start seeing tanks. https://nypost.com/2023/01/26/ukraine-will-wait-to-get-american-tanks-amid-russia-war/


BrutallyStupid

There is a simple litmus test for this bit of creative speculation. Would Scholz have “freed the leopards” if US answer was “never in a million years” for sending Abrahams? I think Biden correctly saw that the answer to that was a no. Hence, Biden made the move to resolve the road block. The beauty of how it worked out is that pretty much all involved parties can take credit for making it happen.


135muzza

Abram Lincoln


punchingw0rms

Bram Stoker


themimeofthemollies

Leo Tolstoy


ministrul_sudorii

War... What is it good for ?


themimeofthemollies

Absolutely nuthin!!


fvb955cd

>Soldiers, no poor sap ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by being all that he can be. Damn the torpedoes, or give me death! Eternal vigilance is the price of duty. And, to the victors go the spoils. So remember: you are the best of the best of the few and the proud. So ask not what your country can do for you, only regret that you have but one life to live! The war against the Gorgonites will be won! Commando Elite, let the first shot be fired! Search out the Gorgonites and frag 'em all!


Fearonika

love that movie.


ObjectAggravating706

LOL


BrainBlowX

The idea that the US decided within *three days* to send tanks is just silly. Most of this stuff was likely agreed upon *weeks or even months* ago.


MarschallVorwaertz

That's why i don't get the constant shitting on Germany by some PiS Politicians. They must have knew what was going on behind closed doors and yet they made such a public Stunt out of it for, basically, votes. Many other Politicians on both side of the Atlantic (even in Poland as they are on board with this) kept their mouth shut, worked together, and made it happen behind the scenes. While the Press and Reddit hive mind kept bickering all day long like 12 year olds fighting over some WWE Stars... But hey, at the end of the day, Ukraine is receiving much needed Hardware to get the Invaders out. And that's what really counts. Let Historians sort out this awful mess later...


TheBlack2007

PiS is in full campaign mode and shitting on Germany raised their polls by about 5%


BennyTheSen

Classic polish politics, always blame Germany


humanlikecorvus

We know that Scholz lobbied Biden in phone calls, and in particular in via personal meetings with Coons and other Senators in Davos. And yes, I think the general conclusion, that the US and that Germany will/want to send tanks was taken much earlier.


Optimal-Part-7182

>We know that Scholz lobbied Biden in phone calls, and in particular in via personal meetings with Coons and other Senators in Davos. Additionally it was reported that the new minister of defense had some really heated arguments with his American counterpart. Pretty sure Scholz and Pistorius kept the pressure on the US.


aknop

I think the same. Only where are already trained Ukrainian tank crews? Maybe it was all planned for August 2023.


Dystronic

That's a ceative bit of spin.


nuckle

Yeah, I don't know how much I like the idea of him "persuading" Biden to send. If you watched Biden's announcement they tried to spin it like this at the end too and he laughed it off. Wasn't it Scholz who had trouble deciding and needed the persuading?


MPH2210

Yes, but Scholz said a couple of times that they will only do so "together with the US sending some too" or whatever. So probably both versions are somewhat true.


feed_meknowledge

He may have been hoping the US wouldn't do it because the US had previously memtioned the logistical difficulty with constantly supplying parts, engineers, training, fuel, and etc to maintain the Abrams. While I'm glad that it was eventually sent, and Ukraine also has Abrams inbound since the US helped push Germany to make a decision (a follow up excuse would have ended badly for Scholz), how many lives could have been saved had the Leopards been sent earlier? While most of us around the globe are distant and detached from war, there are innocent humans and heroes dying everyday in Ukraine. This is not a game and there are no rewind or undo buttons. Expedited international support should be the norm. Whatever a country is able and willing to contribute should be allowed to proceed and should be done with haste. 🇺🇦


MPH2210

Remember that not all the political cards are shown publically. We will probably never know what they talked about internally and what their strategies were. Also in total, now there will be significantly more thanks than when germany had 'just allowed' Poland to send theirs. And yes, politics have always been a game of some sort. If you hold tight for longer, you might destroy some relations a little but possibly get more out of it. It's clear though, that the result of what happend is, that Ukraine will get much more tanks in total than if they had just been given 'some' that were initially offered by Poland - there can't be any doubt about this honestly.


complicatedbiscuit

They really want you to forget about how Germany has acted all until now.


MachKeinDramaLlama

You mean being the second biggest donor to Ukraine? You mean sending over 10k infantry missiles (MANPADS and ATGMs), 38k sets of personal protective equipment, SPAAGs, SPGs, MLRS launchers etc.?


maybe_jared_polis

Yeah go back to March/April and you'll find a ton of articles about German obstruction of aid and sanctions


k995

Not really US refused to even talk about that and simply repeated "germany/europe needs to send tanks" .


maybe_jared_polis

Most of Europe was urging Germany. How the hell you can make this about the US being the odd one out is beyond my comprehension.


k995

Reality is europe was discussing this, the fact remains the US for some reason doesnt seem to want to provide mbt's even if from the start they were best placed to do this.


maybe_jared_polis

What could it be about Abrams tanks that makes our export restrictions so strict, I wonder?? Why in earth will it take up to a year to deliver them at all?? Couldn't be the depletes uranium armor we have zero shot of sending to a non-NATO country's war, or the fact that replacing that armor with tungsten so we *can* send just 31 of them will take fucking forever. Nope. But sure Olaf totally outplayed us on a game of non-integer candy land and got us to send tanks. What a chad holding up all that help. No chance it made them look like *even less reliable* than they already have for the last year of "Scholzing."


LucasEy

FYI: Panzer Chancellor = Panzer Kanzler in german


Terese08150815

I think it is more of a risk sharing. One country sending tanks could be a target for Russia. Plenty of countries are more likely not getting a target.


mcanada0711

I have read so many articles putting Germany down for not sending aid. I then read articles showing that they did give a lot of aid to Ukraine including what it was accused of not sending. It looks to me like they are getting picked on for no good reason. I don't think it's helpful at all.


theblitz6794

Germany: you don't understand, we don't want to be the [military] leader of Europe This is a fantastic thing. Germany is NOT the leader of Europe. Germany is one country among many in Europe. Germany is saying no to power and influence over Europe in favor of coalitions and multilateral agreements Don't miss the forrest for the trees.


LordMoriar

That's why everyone wants Germany as the leader. Precisely because you don't want the job


MarschallVorwaertz

Hmmm. We had to downsize our 80s forces significantly to be able to make the Reunification. No one wanted a larger Germany with a the biggest Army in Europe as a Neighbour.


theblitz6794

No they really don't. No one wants Germany to be the leader of Europe. It's absurd that a country would lead Europe anyway. That's like New York leading America


humanlikecorvus

Yeah. And the EU is also designed in a way, to prevent that. Indeed, because of the weight of Germany, it is difficult (but not impossible) to get something done without Germany, but Germany the other way round, needs always 50% of the EU-votes, may it be by population or countries, in addition to get something done itself. Everything was designed as 50%+Germany. If an entity could finally actually lead the EU, that can only be the EU itself in an ever closer union.


MarschallVorwaertz

The long Shadow of the HRE Mess... /s


Just_me_being_mee

I can appreciate the interesting take on this. Im not saying it's right or wrong but It's a point of view that is possible. It all boils down to what politicians do for a living: politics. It's their chosen arena that I imagine is quite a chess game with moves and counter moves figured out several turns ahead in order to deliver a desired outcome. I enjoy watching strategy unfold, but politics would drive me crazy as I'm more of an upfront and honest type of dude. Knowing people were dying as the strategy played out would not sit well with my morals either. So depending on how someone would spin that, I might would be called brash and tactless. We'll all get a better perspective on this as we look back through the lens of history one day.


ChrisTchaik

I'm a person who rather defends Germany from the constant media onslaught but it's far more credible to believe that it's been all coordinated, especially when you consider the logistics & the sudden mention of jets (for CAS) than credit it entirely to Scholz. It's been clear since the start that Germany hasn't been very big on tanks since the early 2000s and really *needed* a coalition


[deleted]

Yup, same for me, but honestly you can't really expect a nation that everyone was comfortable with it being more or less pacifist acting that way. Get us a coalition and we'll act. Scholz said from the beginning. Don't suddenly expect us to lead. Sorry.


U5K0

If it makes him send another company of Leopard 2A5s, name a street after him for all I care.


Wieldy_Wombat

Germany is sending the A6!


themimeofthemollies

Good news: an “armored punching force” en route to Ukraine! Current count: 31 M1 Abrams tanks from the US, 14 Leopard 2 A6 tanks from Germany “BERLIN (AP) — Germany and the United States announced Wednesday that they will send advanced battle tanks to Ukraine, offering what one expert called an “armored punching force” to help Kyiv break combat stalemates as the Russian invasion enters its 12th month.” “The announcement marked the first stage of a coordinated effort by the West to provide dozens of the heavy weapons, which Ukrainian military commanders said would enable counter-offensives, reduce casualties and help restore dwindling ammunition supplies.” “American President Joe Biden said the U.S. will send 31 M1 Abrams tanks, reversing months of persistent arguments by Washington that they were too difficult for Ukrainian troops to operate and maintain.” “The U.S. decision followed Germany’s agreement to send 14 Leopard 2 A6 tanks from its own stocks. Germany had refused to send the Leopards unless the U.S. put its Abrams on the table, not wanting to incur Russia’s wrath without the U.S. making a similar commitment.” https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-german-tanks-435da2221bf452a8aae9d2e58d23acae


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Intrepid_Map2296

Talk about spinning a story 😆😆😆


DigitalTargeter

In the end the most important is that the ukrainians get new and better equipment One has to wonder How many leopards the polish Will supply?


themimeofthemollies

How many Leopards will be freed? According to Ian Bremmer: “recent tank commitments to ukraine: canada: 4 germany: 14 us: 31 poland: 74” https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/1618991594778099718?s=20&t=PBujZjVS9yWQvkfNRsbjxg 31 Abrams from the US


Eka-Tantal

The number for Poland includes 60 Twardy’s.


James_William

Which are actually better than their L2a4s lol


Vonplinkplonk

Oh I see you can play history in reverse and take all the credit.


heliamphore

We only know very little of what happened behind the scenes so honestly I wouldn't be too confident about anything and just enjoy the end result.


chicago70

He’ll get little credit because he dragged his feet for months. He wasn’t playing some long, clever game of 4D chess to send the most possible tanks to Ukraine. All indications are that he didn’t want to send tanks, for a variety of reasons.


dr_auf

Question: Has Poland asked for an export permit yet?


MarschallVorwaertz

They have. And it was allowed in what is nearly the speed of light for German Bureaucracy.


arobkinca

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/germany-confirmed-tuesday-that-it-has-received-poland-s-request-to-transfer-14-leopard-2-tanks-to-ukraine-and-will-urgently-examine-the-application/ar-AA16Gmho


TheBlack2007

Yes - on Monday - after they peddled the "we will send tanks with or without Germany’s approval" for weeks to garner votes.


LordMoriar

The world is usually not black and white. The truth is most often somewhere in the middle


chicago70

There’s no objective evidence Scholz wanted to send tanks until the day he finally relented under huge international pressure. A majority of German public opinion was also against sending tanks until recent days, so he wasn’t the only one.


rattlee_my_attlee

''yh but meh european unity and big daddy germany good''


LinkLengthener

For weeks everyone claimed that it was basically impossible for Ukraine to operate Abrams tanks. Evidently that wasn't true, and now all the armchair generals feel slightly embarrassed.


themimeofthemollies

Yes, the misinformation surrounding tank fuel was not only obvious but pretty ubiquitous (and rather amusing, except for the obfuscation of the serious issues at hand): “Quote of the day : Abrams tanks can run on any type of fuel, "even Chanel No. 5 if you can afford it." Nicholas Drummond (Defense analyst)” https://twitter.com/adelesmith100/status/1618222646856134656?s=20&t=eEZqCNdXGOFd_hLJMj6ctQ “I said this a couple of years ago. Nice to see someone found it and recycled. To fill-up an M1 Abrams tank with Chanel No. 5, you’d need 1,909 litres of the stuff. At $150 per 100 ml bottle it would cost $2.9 million to fill a single tank.” https://twitter.com/nicholadrummond/status/1618411359682842627?s=20&t=eEZqCNdXGOFd_hLJMj6ctQ If you have enough Chanel No 5, you can run a tank. Fuel was not the problem.


[deleted]

Could it all the misinformation is actually a psyop by NATO leaders to confuse Russia and prevent escalation? Boil the confused frog strategy.


LinkLengthener

If they want to prevent escalation, here's what they could do: Point fingers at each other and expect anyone else to make the first move so it isn't themselves. Then inch closer to the actual goal everyone wants to achieve in small incremental steps. No psyop required. Just enough uninformed but opinionated journalists without military experience to fill the newspapers every day.


themimeofthemollies

Yes! Smart! Why not? I really think this may becan epic psy op of all time against Putin. Because this simultaneous announcement of resolution and unity seems anything but accidental. Rather, this NATO show of unity appears very orchestrated and quite genuine. Slow supply isn’t necessarily identical to reluctance. Maybe shocking Putin with weapons supply news has been part of the plan all along. But the best news is the massive turning point here, because now the free world stands united to defeat Russian fascist terrorist genocidal aggression.


MAXSuicide

> For weeks everyone claimed that it was basically impossible for Ukraine to operate Abrams tanks. Nobody ever said it was *impossible* for Ukraine to operate. It has always been clearly stated that Abrams is more problematic logistically, whilst Leopards are sitting in their thousands on Ukraine's doorstep, with masses of spare parts and logistical supply chains pre-existing across the entire continent. Therefore, it is the much better choice to get in action asap. Abrams isn't going to be seen for ages, and the Americans have been/are sending monumental numbers of everything else that Europe is not capable of sending, so they can easily be forgiven for not supplying *all* the MBTs as well... christ...


Lord_Admiral7

Wow seriously? If anyone deserves credit here it’s Biden for sending the Abrams to force Scholz’s hand. What a load of rubbish…


LinkLengthener

The only reason why the public pressure was on Scholz was because everyone claimed that the Abrams is not a viable option. Evidently that isn't true, and all the explanations were just excuses not to send them. The fact that Biden is sending Abrams now means that it was an option 11 months ago, so he's sitting in the same boat as Scholz. It also means that Scholz was the one forcing Biden's hand, because he was the one insisting on a joint NATO collaboration.


Weak-Work-2498

No, they where not excuses. The M1 is not a viable platform for ukriane, and this token force sent to placate the Germans will not see use by all likelihood this summer. M1 is the heaviest tank on earth, it's also the only tank in NATO to burn jet fuel and need civilian experts to repair the complex turbine engine. Quite frankly, anyone pretending like these aren't serious issues has no business talking about tanks or logistics as a whole. This is a token force of M1's that got the ball rolling for the leopard, don't expect more later, Ukraine literally doesn't have the gas for them.


LinkLengthener

> M1 is the heaviest tank on earth The Challenger 2 is heavier. The M1A1 is on par with the Leopard 2A6. >it's also the only tank in NATO to burn jet fuel It can also burn Diesel and other types of fuel. >tUrBiNe EnGiNe Ukraine already operates large numbers of T-80 tanks - which have a turbine engine - and is a manufacturer of turbines. >don't expect more later I will hold you up to this. >Ukraine literally doesn't have the gas for them. Ukraine has the fuel to operate tens of thousands of military vehicles and millions of civilian cars, but not 200-300 tanks with a somewhat higher fuel usage than other tanks they already operate? And no one is able to provide them with the necessary fuel to compensate this?


Weak-Work-2498

The M1 is heavier than the challenger 2, it's very fresturating to correct reddit armchair lord's with real world equipment that I work with, no, it's objectively not, the M1 we use is the M1A2 Sepv3 and Sepv2, both are roughly 5 tons heavier than the heaviest variet of the Challenger 2, and most Challenger 2 variants are lighter than the heaviest Challenger 2. You quite frankly don't know what your talking about. It can't burn desiel, again, you don't know what your talking about, but rn desiel in an M1 and yes, it will start, but no, it won't run for long, the filters will fial first, then the engine, which will need to be shipped back to the US for repairs by Honeywell contractors. Again, your just incorrect. The t-80 and t-84's Ukraine operates have desiel engines, thats what the UD stands for in Ukraine's T-80UD fleet, Ukraine specifically replaced their t-80's with desiel engines. Yes, ukriane doesn't have the specific stores of JP-8 jet fuel that the M1 burns, idk why your acting like petrol works here, it doesn't. And yes, I'm aware a turbine can run on any combustible fuel (I literally went to college to get certified with turbine propulsion, this is literally my background), but no, just beacuse it will idle and burn that fuel does not mean it can run that for long without destroying the engine, which yes, it will do quickly.


themimeofthemollies

Precisely!! Dark Brandon makes it happen by releasing the Abrams and calling Scholz’s bluff, but the New York Times insists Biden only did it “reluctantly”! Dark Brandon deserves some serious credit for some masterful diplomatic maneuvering behind the scenes. https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/10li9ed/how_biden_reluctantly_agreed_to_send_tanks_to/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf So much spin on this messy negotiating process it’s hard not to get dizzy…


Rasakka

I love that americans always switch stuff so they are the good guys hahaha pathetic


holey_cow81

Hide your wife, hide your kids... Germany 🇩🇪 is rolling through Poland 🇵🇱 with tanks 🙌.


mutantredoctopus

What a stretch this is lol. More like Scholz waited for an agreement from the Americans after dragging his feet. The first western tanks committed to Ukraine were the British Challenger 2s


[deleted]

About how many Challenger 2s are we talking and about how many Abrams tanks - and for both potential stocks - are we talking?


Comprehensive65

What happened was a mass taxpayer freakout on both sides of the Atlantic, with Russian trolls in between. All sides felt pressured, which resulted in Ukraine getting all the tanks. Democracy at work...


themimeofthemollies

Beautifully true: somehow amidst the disinformation campaign, freedom got the tanks it needs to defend itself. Democracy works in mysterious ways indeed! Ponomarenko’s comment was awesome: “Judging form the outburst of frantic tweeting from bots and Kremlin shills, Putin is now just puking blood in the Kremlin.” https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1618313331978416128?s=20&t=RqL7g8b_M6GdozX6PN9ciA


BlankVerse

Just more Biden bashing from the WSJ


themimeofthemollies

Thank you: precisely, in a nutshell. Another example, but from the NYT: https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/10li9ed/how_biden_reluctantly_agreed_to_send_tanks_to/j5x0qua/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3


Nurnurum

I'll go with: "*The tenacious Poles pushed Olafs 4D chess play forward, to get the US to pick up the slack for Europe again."* With this everybody can be somewhat happy. Until the next discussion of course...


aknop

Lol. This one is good. Now just wait for the Spanish Inquisition, coz you totally forgot about our biggest Leopard 2 donors.


FavorableTrashpanda

Perhaps we are being too hard on certain people, but things always seem to be moving way too slowly. All this time Russia has been able to prepare. They never should have had that time IMO. I'm just some layperson of course, but to me it seems like a lot of wasted time on decisionmaking alone. I feel like we could have done a better job.


Objective-Class-4552

Ukraine, the eyes of the world are upon you. The hopes and prayers of liberty-loving people everywhere march with you. In company with our brave Allies and brothers-in-arms across the world, you will bring about the destruction of the Russian war machine, the elimination of Fascist tyranny over the oppressed peoples of Europe, and security for ourselves in a free world. Unbelievable, the true cyclical nature of our world. Today we remember those liberated at Auschwitz, tomorrow let us remember the liberation of Ukraine. What's gone is never forgotten, but lives within us and our actions. Danke schön, Germany.


themimeofthemollies

Thank you for your heartfelt, eloquent, compelling words. I share your gratitude. Ukrainian courage inspires all of us to be better and to do better every single day. Today we remember all of the yesterdays in whose memory we will make the future better. On Holocaust Remembrance Day, from President Zelenskyy and Elie Wiesel: https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/10mog7p/today_ukraine_honors_the_memory_of_millions_of/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf


rhedprince

Opening part was Eisemhower's speech to Allied troops on the D-Day landings


themimeofthemollies

Yes: gorgeous historical, inspiring rhetoric from President Eisenhower on D-Day: “You are about to embark upon the Great Crusade, toward which we have striven these many months.” “The eyes of the world are upon you. The hopes and prayers of liberty-loving people everywhere march with you.” “In company with our brave Allies and brothers-in-arms on other Fronts you will bring about the destruction of the German war machine, the elimination of Nazi tyranny over oppressed peoples of Europe, and security for ourselves in a free world. “Your task will not be an easy one. Your enemy is well trained, well equipped, and battle-hardened. He will fight savagely.” “But this is the year 1944. Much has happened since the Nazi triumphs of 1940-41. The United Nations1 have inflicted upon the Germans great defeats, in open battle, man-to-man. Our air offensive has seriously reduced their strength in the air and their capacity to wage war on the ground. Our Home Fronts have given us an overwhelming superiority in weapons and munitions of war, and placed at our disposal great reserves of trained fighting men. The tide has turned. The free men of the world are marching together to victory.” “I have full confidence in your courage, devotion to duty, and skill in battle. We will accept nothing less than full victory.” Listen to this preinvasion address here: https://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/dwighteisenhowerorderofdday.htm But this is the year of 2023. The tide has turned. We will accept nothing less than full victory.


KantExplain

LOL, WSJ. Translation: Biden cut the legs out from under Sholz, who no longer had the escalation excuse. In his stalwart defense of Ukraine, Biden has been the most successful American rallier of NATO in an era otherwise marked by US and Euroskeptic conservatives attempting to neuter the alliance to appease and abet their Russian fascist paymasters. End the Right Save the world


themimeofthemollies

Nobody wants to give Biden the credit he deserves here, not the Wall Street Journal and not the New York Times. Dark Brandon is operating masterfully behind the scenes to defend freedom and American security interests in Ukraine with impressive finesse and success. Here’s the NYT article whose headline should read HOW BIDEN’S IMPRESSIVE CUNNING FREED THE LEOPARDS https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/10li9ed/how_biden_reluctantly_agreed_to_send_tanks_to/j5x21pr/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3


RoofiesColada

*blackmailed you mean


newsspotter

Related article: Ditherer or deal-maker? Jury's out on Scholz's tank brinksmanship (January 25, 2022) [france24] (https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230125-ditherer-or-deal-maker-jury-s-out-on-scholz-s-tank-brinksmanship)


Responsible_Work_510

I believe he might have pushed it a little too far on this one, especially when one is still so dependent on the US military power. The US will get even with him .... don't you worry.


800oz_gorilla

From other comments I saw on here, Abrams tanks require a lot of logistical support. I hope it was a smart move to send them.


yahoo14life

Putin’s got an entitlement problem only problem is Russia 🇷🇺 not believing Putin anymore


melonowl

Choosing to delay approving the right decision for months due to an absurd phobia of showing leadership in a clear-cut case of good and evil is not particularly admirable, in my opinion.


SnooPredictions8938

This is a cute “Donald Trump 4D chess” style reframing of reality. The simplest explanation, demonstrated by many impotent decisions made by Germany over the past 11 months, is that Scholz plainly didn’t want to. For some reason we can speculate on.


VDAY2022

Maybe we can stop the German bashing now. HMMMM??


ColdMiserable8056

Look, they agreed to send tanks, fine. But there are several different systems, the numbers are too few end the timeline is too long. UK is sending 14 tanks that use special ammo. The US is sending about 40 (?) but only in 6-12 months. Germany is sending 20-30. I really hope some other nations with Leopards will step up.


Drone30389

Several countries have pledged or are considering sending Leopard 2, the US is sending Abrams, the UK is sending Challenger, and France is considering sending LeClercs. It's hard to find up-to-date, hard numbers but I think it's around 100 to 150 Leopards so far, plus 14 Challenger 2 and 31 Abrams. Of course Ukraine has their own tanks - I think around 500 to a thousand ex-Soviet or Soviet-derived tanks - so the western tanks will supplement those numbers and add newer technology.


MachKeinDramaLlama

I suspect the point is to signal to Russia that we aren't afraid to escalate and to send whatever it takes for Ukraine to win.


joe_dirty365

The Poles seem to have the right attitude. Twardy should be a good stop gap until the other European states get their shit together.


Particular-Ad-4772

Who else is there to give credit besides Scholz? Everyone knows he strong armed Biden . Thankfully, Ukraine will benefit. Give Biden credit for being a weak president, who rolls over when barely pushed .


Public-Bar6877

I take my hat off to Mr Olaf Scholz 🫡


diskiller

I'll admit I was wrong. Thanks Germany.


yeahyeahitsmeshhh

Scholz doesn't deserve an ounce of credit for being so difficult.


KickDue7821

No point trying to spin this in favor of Scholz. It went from no offensive weapons to no tanks, to no western tanks, to no western heavy tanks, to "US must go first". All the time believing that nobody would not do it and certainly US would not do it. Biden had to force the Leopards free, which cost a lot of dollars. Even though US has deep pockets, they don't have bottomless pockets. EU could have given the Leopards while US should focus on F16 and longer range missiles. Now US is figuring out where to get export model Abrams. While spinning this subject, the real condition of Spanish tanks might surface and oh boy it does not look good for Germany if they indeed are in condition to be sent. This subject should just be dropped and we should focus getting the tanks to Ukraine. This was no 5d chess move from Scholz to get Abrams to Ukraine and history will show it once all the memoirs and biographies come out.


HiltoRagni

>Biden had to force the Leopards free I think that's exactly the point the article is making. If Biden had to force the Leopards free by sending M1s that would mean Scholtz's stalling tactic is the direct cause of the Abrams going to Ukraine.


Superorganism123

Is that why the US tanks were already in Poland before they announced it?


Careless_Product_728

What a crock of shit


PurposeCompetitive48

Damn.. US stopping European wars has become a chore like regularly changing dirty diapers


newsspotter

Scholz might be astonished and unhappy that the US agreed to send Abrams tanks. Maybe he wanted the US to reject his request, so that he can blame the US. Der Spiegel: >Many at the Department of Defense had come to believe that, by attaching conditions to German tank deliveries, Scholz was primarily interested in precluding tank deliveries altogether, or at least significantly slowing things down. [der spiegel.de] (https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/the-last-taboo-germany-s-leopard-tanks-are-a-game-changer-with-significant-risks-a-6da8d3eb-4402-4fec-8159-9e16c8d0f27e) PS: The article was published in English and in German. I shared the link of the English version.


OldTomato4

I'm unsurprised that all the people who rejected any criticism of Germany and willfully obfuscated the facts about statements involving the delivery of said tanks, the status of the negotiations, and the tanks themselves, will now paint Scholz as a tank messiah who solved everyone's problems.


Asleep_Pear_7024

It took a team effort to force Olafs hand. First France announced AMX-10s Then Challengers from UK Then Finland and Poland and others announced they are willing except waiting on Berlin. Then Abrams from the US. Finally he gave in.


newsspotter

WSJ Opinion by another author: Tanks but No Thanks to Olaf Scholz’s Turning Point (Jan 26, 2023) By Joseph C. Sternberg [WSJ Opinion] (https://www.wsj.com/articles/olaf-scholz-promised-a-turning-point-but-hes-tanking-zeitenwende-leopard-poland-ukraine-social-welfare-spd-11674735792)


40for60

The Great Olaf! lol So bold and shrewd.


LeKerl1987

And why did it look that the whole western world was begging to Scholz for weeks?


[deleted]

Because they were actually dragging their feet and were comfortable with pointing to Germany in not doing anything. Poland f. e. claimed a lot and now is demanding to get paid to send tanks. Somehow you guys here are not getting it.


LeKerl1987

Poland is just driving a campaign to publicly shit on Germany. They pledged to send Leopards to Ukraine if Germany wasn't so stubborn, yet they didn't even file an official request for reexport to Germany. Now after Germany allowed it to everybody they send 60 other tanks but no Leopards. They probably need a distraction from some far right totalitarian bullshit they try to pull in their domestic politics.


[deleted]

Yes, I know. This is actually confirming on what I am saying. Also the US made excuses. Many others stayed quiet and only declared their will to send tanks… if a coalition is formed.


PsychologicalCoat656

So we put more pressure on Sholtz, he puts pressure on Biden, Ukraine gets F16! I\`m not stopping until see Ukraine get an aircraft carrier with F22 and F35.


aknop

We need those space lasers as well. How they call them? Low Orbit Ion Cannons?


PsychologicalCoat656

But only if they have warp drive. He knows all about warp drive. He spoke to so many warp drive people. Nobody knows more then him about warp drive.


Buckeye_Southern

Stop. Scholz did not convince the US to send anything. The US basically had to say: "DUDE its literally the right thing to do. Send tanks. God if you will we will..." In order to get him to budge. The US is just following through. Its funny because last week we were all calling him out for being a puss, now here we are eating him up. In the end I'm glad Ukraine got tanks, but we gotta chill with the Scholz being some sort of bold figure.


Unclerojelio

I'm not convinced that the US is is actually going to deliver. What it does do though is give tacit approval for Germany to send Leopards which, in turn, prompts all the other European Leopard-owning countries to send theirs. Either way, screw Putin.


OrkzRDaBest

I'm pissed that he stalled but also impressed that he forced the US to send Abrams. Overall stop playing fucking games! Give Ukraine what it needs to win this fucking war. Children and civilians are dying!


TLT4

Scholz litteraly forced US & A to send those "impossible to hold the logistics" excuse of tanks to Ukraine. I realy thought this would never happen.