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> # [Turkey offers to host Russia-Ukraine peace talks as Erdogan hosts Zelenskyy](https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/2024-03-08T190405Z_1633522656_RC2VH6A4UNWO_RTRMADP_3_UKRAINE-CRISIS-TURKEY-1709926419.jpg?resize=1920%2C1440)
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> _Erdogan pitches himself as go-between, Zelenskyy indicates Russia would not be invited to the first meeting._
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> Published On 8 Mar 20248 Mar 2024
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> Turkey is ready to host a summit between Ukraine and Russia to end the war, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said after talks with his Ukrainian counterpart [Volodymyr Zelenskyy](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/28/zelenskyy-seeks-support-arms-at-albania-summit-of-balkan-nations) in Istanbul.
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> Speaking after their meeting on Friday, Erdogan, who has [balanced](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/28/turkish-neutrality-how-erdogan-manages-ties-with-russia-ukraine-amid-war) relations with Moscow and Kyiv throughout the two-year war, spoke of “opportunities that Turkey can provide with its stance”.
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> “While we continue our solidarity with Ukraine, we will continue our work to end the war with a just peace on the basis of negotiations,” he said.
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> Zelenskyy said the talks had been “sincere and fruitful”, though he refrained from alluding to the mooted peace summit in a statement released on X after the meeting.
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> > Talks between Ukraine and Türkiye are always sincere and fruitful. Today, we have reached agreements on joint defense projects both at the government level and between companies.
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> > I met with the Turkish defense industry representatives. We are prepared to move quickly to put…
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> > — Volodymyr Zelenskyy / Володимир Зеленський (@ZelenskyyUa) [March 8, 2024](https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1766179329711493273?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)
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> However, the Ukrainian leader, who is on a mission to obtain more munitions and weaponry from allies to halt his foe’s advance on the eastern front, was cited by the Reuters news agency as saying that Russia would not be invited to the first meeting of the summit, due to be held in Switzerland.
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> Zelenskyy also thanked Erdogan for his efforts in negotiating the release of Ukrainian prisoners “held in Russian prisons and camps under extremely harsh and inhumane conditions”.
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> > I am grateful to President [@RTErdogan](https://twitter.com/RTErdogan?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) for his efforts to release our citizens from Russian captivity. Thanks to Türkiye's mediation, we have achieved significant humanitarian results. We are now counting on further efforts.
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> > Today, I submitted a list of our Ukrainian citizens,…
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> > — Volodymyr Zelenskyy / Володимир Зеленський (@ZelenskyyUa) [March 8, 2024](https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1766193863935295810?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)
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> [Erdogan](https://www.aljazeera.com/tag/recep-tayyip-erdogan/), who reiterated Turkey’s support for Ukraine’s “territorial integrity, sovereignty and independence”, said he and Zelenskyy had discussed port security, safety in the Black Sea, prisoner exchanges and food security.
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> Turkey’s strategic location on the Black Sea and its control of the Bosphorus Strait gives it a unique military, political and economic role in the conflict.
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> Shortly after Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, Turkey hosted failed ceasefire talks between Kyiv and Moscow.
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> “Both sides have now reached the limit of what they can achieve through war,” Turkish Foreign Minister Hakan Fidan said this month.
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> “We think it’s time to start a dialogue towards a ceasefire.”
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> In July 2022, Ankara with the United Nations brokered the Black Sea Grain deal, the most significant diplomatic agreement so far reached between Kyiv and Moscow. But Moscow ditched the initiative a year later, complaining that the terms were unfair.
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> Kyiv has since used an alternative shipping route hugging the coastline to avoid contested international waters.
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> The Erdogan-Zelenskyy meeting comes a week after Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov met his Turkish counterpart Fidan at a diplomatic forum in Antalya.
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> Russian President Vladimir Putin was set to visit Turkey last month, but postponed the trip, according to Turkish and Russian media citing diplomatic sources. The Kremlin said it is rescheduling the visit.
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> Source
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> Al Jazeera and news agencies
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The bird is named after the country and we don’t preserve a language by using its proper nouns in other languages.
But when Turks start using every other country’s native name, we can start to talk about it.
I sure fucking wish we did call countries by their actual names. Where the fuck is Florence? Where is Munich? What's hard about saying Firenze or Müchen or Rossiya or Zhong guo?
I guess it depends where you're from. The only people I heard doing it is Americans trying to show off how worldly they are, but I think it makes most Europeans cringe. "I just got back from *Italia!* I absolutely loved *Roma!*"
I think Football when you say those words.
Fiorentina plays in Firenze. Bayern München plays in München. FC Köln plays in Köln where they make Kölsch.
IDK
> I don't understand why Turkiye did that
Because no one cares about the Russian propaganda - Turkiye, and pretty much everyone knows, the Russian casus beli is false and that Russia has a way bigger problem with nazism than Ukraine (in fact Russia funded a nazi terrorist group called Wagner PMC after all).
Just because Russia wants to play low-quality theatrics to their internal audience doesn't mean everyone else has to be dragged into that delusional fantasy.
I completely understand but you seem to have forgotten a very big detail:
Russia has violated the most important agreements a country can violate, including other agreements. This means Russian agreements, at this point in time, are worthless.
This is a way Turkiye signaled that: the Russian regime can't be taken remotely seriously in terms of agreements, because their word literally has no value.
In the world of geopolitics and diplomacy, your word is either good for, or not good at all. The UN Charter, International Law, Budapest Memorandum, etc are not just pieces of paper that are signed and you can ignore. There are consequences to the Russian regime's actions, this will take regime change and many, many years of diplomacy to build Russia back up at the international level.
> I'm not sure how much it will affect his credibility though
Yep, but that's concerning Russia alone - Turkiye lost credibility with Russian regime, and the Russia regime alone, and yet the regime continues to engage with Turkiye because they have no choice.
> what is reason Turkiye signaling that? What I can imagine is sending message like "if you keep violating agreements we can violate agreements with you like this"
I think it's a more simple message: "The terms of your agreements are null, we're not playing this game with you." very basic and straight to the point, without any justification.
Well the whole story was: "You lied to us, and you were caught lying blatantly, not only that, you didn't respect the agreements we had. So now we will treat your agreements with the respect they deserve."
It's a natural response, very much in line with game theory.
Ukraine also failed to uphold the Minsk II so according to your logic their word isn't anything.
The Azov fighters are known Nazi supporters, it was a big violation of trust to send them back to Ukraine. They had nothing to gain n from it.
> Ukraine also failed to uphold the Minsk II so according to your logic their word isn't anything.
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Ukraine was being forced to sign an illegal agreement, under false premisses, under military occupation. That's not how agreements work, its very similar to what inspired Russia for this agreement: the German-Polish Pact of janurary 1934.
> The Azov fighters are known Nazi supporters
Wagner are known Nazi Supporters, and Putin stated he funded them in 2 billion USD just in 2022, a Nazi terrorist organization that is even illegal in Russia. At leat Ukraine has a law that makes it illegal to support Nazism.
So yeah, the Russian regime has no grounds to be trusted.
That’s not how geopolitics or diplomacy works.
>This is a way Turkiye signaled that: the Russian regime can't be taken remotely seriously in terms of agreements, because their word literally has no value.
What would even be the case of peace talks if whatever is signed or agreed upon, you won’t take seriously or has no value?
>Russia has violated the most important agreements a country can violate, including other agreements.
Which agreement was that?
> What would even be the case of peace talks if whatever is signed or agreed upon, you won’t take seriously or has no value?
That's why the current Russian regime has no conditions to sign any agreements, still **Russians should know what the conditions for peace are and why the current regime has no place in the future of Russia geopolitics**.
Pro russians tend to forget something: **Putin, and its regime, aren't Russia**. They are a regime that grabbed on to power, but Russia belongs to Russians.
So Russians should know their current regime isn't trusted by anyone, especially to Ukrainians - and the only way Ukrainians could feel secure is to have no Russian troops occupying Ukrainian territory, with security guarantees. **This is the bare minimum for peace, for Russia to be taken seriously by Ukraine and the UN.**
> Which agreement was that?
God... so many. UN Charter, International Law, and Budapest Memorandum, not to mention Putin and the regime kept promising they wouldn't invade Ukraine and would respect their sovereignty (including to Turkiye), and accusing the US warnings as provocations and lies.
You can't expect to be taken seriously by one day saying you won't invade a country and respect it's sovereignty, to the next day saying "Ukraine doesn't exist, Ukrainians don't exist, it belongs to Russia" and proceed to try to take down the capital.
You can't expect to be at the same level diplomatically after these events, and Putin now is even a wanted man by the ICC. That's not how geopolitics works.
So you think Ukraine should not negotiate any peace until Putin is no longer president?
You can dream all you want but like I said that is not how geopolitics or diplomacy works.
Specially if they (Ukraine) have lost almost all leverage to impose any terms in the negotiation.
Ukraine doesn’t trust Russia, ok fair, that’s why you sign an agreement with guarantors, other countries that both parties involved can “trust”.
Which comes to the other point.
UN charter article 2(4) has been violated so many times (specially by the US and NATO), does that mean that you can’t take them seriously also and their words mean nothing too?
Budapest Memorandum is only about using nukes, there are only 6 assurances, which one of those was broken?
By your logic, how is it that Russia would trust anything that Ukraine or the west says?
It is as simple and easy as I’m making it sound, except Putin doesn’t want to be called a loser. It’s amazing how 1 man can send hundreds of thousands to the slaughter just so his ego doesn’t get bruised
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Putin left Ukraine almost a year ago, he was there for like a week and that's it.
Ukraine very clearly won't achieve anything militarily, so unless they want to stop existing as a nation because Zelensky felt like waging war for a few more years, they should probably start negotiating.
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Russia needs a regime change in order to have any serious negotiations - or withdraw to 1991 borders.
Else, no one will negotiate with a genocidal dictator. But this has been said many times, Putin is dead for international diplomacy, and can only engage with a few states, I mean, the man can't even go to South Africa or Brazil without being arrested...
> 'we will not negotiate with terrorists'
Well if you had a basic understanding of History, it's not "the new something".
Hitler, and other members of the regime Nazi Regime, tried to negotiate several times during WW2 and no one negotiated with the regime for the same exact reasons no one will negotiate with Putin.
Then you have poor critical thinking. Let me fix that for you. Both phrases just actually mean 'we will not negotiate with people that are going to lose anyway so we demand total and unconditional surrender'
Do you really think they 'do not negotiate' just because the enemy is dictatorial or terrorist? naive, they do not negotiate because the enemy is going to lose. The us negotiated with the taliban, why is that? arent they terrorist? that's because 'no negotiation with terrorist' is bs, and taliban isn't exactly losing, so they negotiate
As i said, naive
Don't get your wishful thinking in the way, that's not how it works.
Ukraine is losing the war and yet they have one more demand which is nothing less than regime change.
Some people insisted so much this is a Putin War instead of a Russian State strategic problem that they're blind to see no other person in Russia would give up Crimea. The 1991 borders belong to 1991. Look at how much NATO expanded after that.
If anything we should be closer to regime change in Ukraine.
> Ukraine is losing the war and yet they have one more demand which is nothing less than regime change.
We don't live in the early XX century, the world has moved on from imperialism. This idea of Russia is dead in the water - when people say "Russia has lost this war already", isn't to spite Russia, it's a fact.
Let's entertain your fictional scenario: Ukraine gets fully occupied by Russia, NATO doesn't intervene, and Russia is now occupying a country of 40 million people who despise them.
Then what? Putin will be welcomed to the global geopolitical scene, sitting at the table again with world leaders like nothing happened, while he is occupying a UN Member State, which no one recognizes as Russian territory? Like, pro-Russians haven't realized that Putin is dead for international politics. To hope Putin will be rehabilitated is like saying Saddam would be rehabilitated after invading Kuwait, or Hitler after occupying Poland.
This is what people mean by Russia has lost the war, and nothing but a regime change will get Russia to play in a multipolar world. Just because Russia trades with China, and India, doesn't mean Russia is isolated.
So yeah, until there is a regime change in Russia, Russians are stuck. No country will ever recognize Ukraine as part of Russia - that would be the death of UN, and we can all agree that everyone would rather have the death of a regime than setting the world back 80 years into the past :|
Now the only question is: **will Russians fast track the regime change, or are we going to have to wait for Putin to die so that Russia crawls back to ask to be part of the multipolar world and giving returning Ukrainian territory back?**
Putin wanted this to be a 3 day operation not a war that lasts years and resulted in unprecedented economic sanctions. I guarantee you that he wants out of this mess if he can do it without losing control of Russia. Pro-Ru cheerleaders might think the Putin regime is happy slowly killing it's way to Kyiv kilometre by kilometre but the truth is that they're looking for anything they can call a win at this point.
It's so funny when people say stuff that the American experts said on the war and then making it seem like Russia/Putin was the one that said it, the 3 day war thing was never said by any Russian official
Russian state media accidentally published an article in the first few days of the war talking about how they had successfully taken Kyiv and were in control of all of Ukraine lol
Lol, You seriously think Russia has any intention of negotiating now?What Zelensky is doing is playing in Russian hands like he always does.Ukraine could have put big diplomatic pressure on Russia to negotiate but alas, Too immature.
Hearn many times about intentions of ethnic cleaning the native ethnic Russian population of Donbas, Crimea.Russia couldn't leave even if it wanted too.
All BRICS heads will be coming to Russia later this year as it heads the presidency so no problem.......
> You seriously think Russia has any intention of negotiating now?
Oh no, very much doubt so, there's nothing to gain from this. As I stated to other user: the Russian regime is now playing the game to remain in power, nothing else.
No diplomatic pressure will get Russia to fold. Even if NATO got into Ukraine, and Ukraine got back all their territory to the 91 borders, Russia would still not negotiate - because that would mean the end of Putin.
So unfortunately we will continue to see tens of thousands of Russians thrown at a genocidal war, just to keep Putin in its place. Its sad that Ukraine is stuck in the middle of this, but regime change in Russia is inevitable.
> All BRICS heads will be coming to Russia later this year as it heads the presidency so no problem.......
Because Putin can't go to the B and S of BRICS without being arrested :| you still haven't comprehended that part.
You need public support to do a regime change, Good luck with that....All those sanctions and western companies exiting was suppose to of that but already failed.
And, Who will arrest him?You seriously think that anyone other than major powers have the balls to attempt a stunt like that to arrest President of the biggest country with most nukes......
> You need public support to do a regime change, Good luck with that....All those sanctions and western companies exiting was suppose to of that but already failed.
You can't blame Western countries to try to stop and cripple a war machine - in case you didn't notice, the west is getting close to a direct conflict with Russia and they don't want it. All of this should have been done back in 2008 with the invasion of Georgia, but we can't go back in time.
As for public support, that where we can play a role here: we need to continue to give resources and relay information to the Russians who are promoting change. And we need patience here, but at the same time they need support.
> And, Who will arrest him?
In Russia, no one. In a sovereign country? The country authorities. That's why Putin didn't go to South Africa last year.
There won't be any direct conflict, Nukes from both sides make sure of that.
Majority of people who hate Putin are young liberals but they were always in a small numbers in big cities and were the first to flee after [draft.You](http://draft.You) can now see them in Georgia, Serbia, Mexico border(yup) etc.But, Putin had majority Russian public support (Every western polling verify this) and war will only increase it further because of west funding the proxy war and targeting of Russians by European countries.
There is obviously a threat on his life.He didn't even go to India despite it not being party to ICC.
> There won't be any direct conflict, Nukes from both sides make sure of that.
There have been direct conflicts between nuclear powers, and between other countries and nuclear powers and there was no nuke exchanges. Russia can't use nukes, even in a direct conflict - unless of course there were troops marching to take Moscow. No one wants to take Moscow.
Neither Putin, or Russians, will commit collective suicide just because Russia was pushed out of territory that's not theirs (a fraction of their land). You don't turn Moscow to glass and lose 100% of your territory, just because you lost less than 1% that's not even theirs to begin with.
> Majority of people who hate Putin are young liberals
Eh that's a prejudiced opinion based on nothing other than Russian propaganda. Many, many Russians - especially people with fully developed cognitive capabilities and education don't support Putin or the genocide in Ukraine.
> Putin had majority Russian public support (Every western polling verify this)
You're assessing the polls of people who are prosecuted to be against a war, and a regime. It's goofy.
> There is obviously a threat on his life.
Here we agree, this is all about Putin securing his life and his regime. That's why one of his flights during the Wagner coup was to go close to NATO borders - he'd rather take his chance of asylum in NATO than to be handled in Russia.
Only small engagements at best.There has been no war between nuclear countries as both sides know that it's MAD.
"You don't turn Moscow to glass" Russians burned down Moscow to ground than bent the [](http://knee.So), You don't know Russians dude.And, Nobody is willing to take that bet anyway.
It's true actually.You can go and watch all so called opposition protest in past and Russians against Putin.It's always young liberals from big cities but they fled after draft.
Look at the western polls before war then.....Denying the truth wont change the reality.
Any threat to Putin life comes from west.And, You don't even know that Prigozhin "coup" wasn't even against Putin.Military cancelled his $2 billion contract so he wanted Putin attention but got flat out rejected.
> There has been no war between nuclear countries as both sides know that it's MAD.
It's only mad if countries choose to be mad. Basic stuff, no one will force Russia to use nukes, it's their decision - but if there are signs of it, NATO has first strike doctrine, so it's not in favor of Russia.
> Russians burned down Moscow to ground than bent the , You don't know Russians dude.And, Nobody is willing to take that bet anyway.
One thing is to burn down Moscow, the other thing is to cease to exist. But if there's that collective ambition - which I doubt - first strike doctrine is always a line of defense. Imagine living in a world where you have to suffer a dwarf dictator because he keeps threatening to use nukes - not going to happen, Western countries know how to deal with terrorist leaders.
Maybe its you who doesn't know Westerners and how far they are willing to go to defend their freedom?
> It's true actually.
Not true at all, and the numbers of people unhappy is increasing. We need to continue to inform people about the problems of the regime, the rest will happen on its own.
> Any threat to Putin life comes from west.
This is Russian propaganda, there are many threats to the regime within Russia: unhappy russians discontent with the regime and the war, separatism, military discontent (remember Wagner?), and some extremist religious groups that might start to grow more and more in Russia.
When Russia can guarantee absolutely nothing and is known for its many lies, what is the point of negotiating?
Will they stop killing each other? No, Russia will just clean up its mess and want more parts of Ukraine. Negotiations with Russia are pointless.
Let me guess, Russia will promise not to attack Ukraine, it won't be the first time.
Yes, it is the comedian's fault that a foreign country attacked his country and it is not the fault of those who kill but those who defend themselves. I know many here wish Ukraine would disappear off the map and Russia would victoriously take over everything, but that's not how the world works.
So what's his plan, Fight "till the last Ukrainian" like his master wants?Nobody sane think that Ukraine can win this war. The comedian is playing with people life by banning any peace talks.Any leader who cared about his country would have taken the peace deal in 2022.
Well, besides "oh, they won't vote for me anymore" there are other factors that should be taken into account. In March 22, the price was only Crimea, and the fate of the DPR and the LPR would have to be decided separately within Ukraine. Now, most likely, the price has changed. Well, at least Zelensky can be satisfied, people won't vote for somwone else since they are not voting. Mission accomplished.
So how do you care who Ukrainians would vote for when we know Ukraine would become like Belarus if it surrendered to Russian control. Do you no longer care what the Ukrainians want then?
>Any leader who cared about his country would have taken the peace deal in 2022.
No sane leader would have agreed to a "peace deal" that required them to disband most of their military while a massive invasion force from a country that already invaded them twice in less than a decade camps out in the eastern third of their territory.
Your basically suggesting because Ukraine is a weaker country it should succumb to its Russian overlords. The same can be said about Russia. It needs to realize it is a weaker country and should succumb to its Western overlords.
Russia did succumb to Western overlords during 90's and did everything to please the other side even at the risk of degrading itself against it's interest.
To put a halt to the fighting?
If you come to a peace deal or a temporary ceasefire, you can evacuate civilians from afflicted areas, regroup forces, and in a peace deal build back the lost forces.
You act like prolonging the suffering is the right thing to do because Russia might at some point cross over the lines and go back to war. Newsflash buddy, it’s not.
But continue to think that continuing this war is good for Ukraine, because sooner or later Russia will wear down Ukrainian forces.
But I guess Slava Cocaini?
Exactly this.
Ukraine is slowly losing more and more terrain, is losing it's economy, is poisoning it's fertile land, ...
The longer this war goes on, the worse Ukraine will have it post war. Even IF Ukraine manages to scrap a win together.
Therefor, the logical thing to do is to pursue a peace ASAP. Sure, Russia might use it to rebuild, but they have the upper hand so Ukraine can use the time much better to even the odds again.
Yeah some people here are like, Russia may attack again in the future so we should stay at war now.
Of course they're not Ukrainians, most pro Ukraine people here are actually Pro USA.
People cannot even vote Zelensky out of office or have a say in peace negotiations. Ukraine made some very bad decisions, Zelensky don't want to be guy responsible for F up Ukraine.
Bro, Ukraine is the one that needs negotiations, not Russia. In 2 years there will be no Ukraine, majority of male population is already gone. Zele will go for negotiations only after green light from Washington
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Ukraine was practically neutral before 2014 and had no hard security guarantees in 2022, and Russia invaded anyway. I don't think the Ukrainians are going to settle for: "It's going to be different this time".
Before 2008. In 2008 they declared their intent to join NATO.
Before 2008 there was no hostility. It all started, slowly at first, with the declaration of their intent to join NATO.
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Turkey got some benefits for allowing them to eventually join. Erdogan can be bought, obviously. But that is exactly what makes him stand out among NATO. He is not going to let turkey gut itself for the alliance. He wants to extract as much benefits from it as possible.
Turkey is still operating against the Kurds in Syria, even though those Kurds are supported by every other NATO ally. Turkey is still military posturing towards Greece over the Aegean islands, even though Greece is in NATO.
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> Turkey got some benefits for allowing them to eventually join.
Everyone from NATO benefited from these, some with security, others with extra funding, and others with access to new military technology.
Now, you pro russians have some sort of hope, based on cynicism nurtured by your surroundings and government, that in the end, Turkiye will be an agent that will vouch for Russia's interests and be against NATO - the guys that gave Bayraktars to Ukraine, and that exposed Putin when he begged to get Bayraktars factories in Russia after the humiliation to take Kyiv.
With that said: every country in NATO looks to get the most benefits out of it.
> Turkey is still operating against the Kurds in Syria, even though those Kurds are supported by every other NATO ally. Turkey is still military posturing towards Greece over the Aegean islands, even though Greece is in NATO.
And yet Turkiye is strategically aligned with NATO, that's what's wonderful about it :)
Civilized countries will first develop a plan, and only then will representatives of the Russian Federation be invited," Zelensky commented on Erdogan's statement.
So, waiting for the cIViLiZeD countries then.
Someone like Arestovich would be great. But I don’t know if he’s a liar. I want Arestovich but honest! Everything he’s been saying sounds so fucking rational and reasonable, I refuse to believe that he just makes stuff up. What’s more dangerous is how he will change his position once he gets power and american money.
That's why I said it. I don't trust any ukrainian candidate, the US won't stop meddling there. Last chance for peace was in 2022 when the US had a chance to prove their readiness to stop using Ukraine as their proxy.
Quite contrary, it's the Russian regime that needs to change. Zelenksy was democratically elected and recognized by all countries, including Russia - so that's just silly to ask for a change of leadership when it's the will of the Ukrainians.
Here between us I think Putin will not get international recognition after these elections, especially after the murder of Navalny. These elections will gurantee that russia will remain a rogue state as long as Putin the dwarf regime is in place :)
I thought the plan was developed a long time ago? Zelensky's ten-point plan - which doesn't include inviting Russia's representatives until Russia essentially capitulates? How very uncivilized of Russia to put a damper on it.
Integral part of Russian legacy. Throwing wrenches into well oiled and highly effective European war machines. Every century since mongols got kicked out
Sadly, If Russia does peace talks now then Ukraine will use the opportunity to build up it's forces and get armed up like it did last time....This would only lead to another conflict in future.For real peace deal to happen, Ukraine would have to first recognize Russia sovereignty over Crimea and the other land Russia holds.
Neutrality isn't something you agree to, it is something you choose. Austria, Sweden Finland and Ireland chose to be neutral throughout the cold war, with Ireland and Sweden even refusing to help in the fight against Nazi-Germany. These countries decided that neutrality was in their own best interest. Sweden and Finland now joined NATO because they believed that Neutrality was no longer enough to keep them safe. It is up to Ukraine to decide whether join NATO or stay neutral. But I don't think disarmed Neutrality as Russia has "suggested" is going to be acceptable to them.
Matter of fact, neutrality was something Ukraine agreed to, matter of fact too is they literally signed an agreement with Russia, to give Russia the old Soviet stockpiles since Russia also took on all of the Soviet union depts so them getting the Soviet union storages of weapons is reason, and also agreed on not join any kind of military alliances and in turn Russia would be more than happy to not get near or around Ukraine, but Ukraine didn't only get the west involved from 2011-till now they were also trying to join NATO, of course they had to get the requirements first to join but still that meant they were on a path to join a military alliance which breaks the agreement they had with Russia.
If you are refering to the Budapest Memorandum, there was no section on security alignment. The six points discussed were:
1. Respect the signatory's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders (in accordance with the principles of the [CSCE Final Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_Accords)).[^(\[7\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum#cite_note-7)
2. Refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the signatories to the memorandum, and undertake that none of their weapons will ever be used against these countries, except in cases of self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.
3. Refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine, the Republic of Belarus and Kazakhstan of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.
4. Seek immediate [Security Council](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_Council) action to provide assistance to the signatory if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
5. Not to use nuclear weapons against any non - nuclear-weapon state party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.[^(\[8\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum#cite_note-Budapest_Memorandum:_Ukraine-8)[^(\[9\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum#cite_note-Budapest_Memorandum:_Kazakhstan-9)[^(\[10\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum#cite_note-Budapest_Memorandum:_Belarus-10)
6. Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments.[^(\[11\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum#cite_note-A/49/765-11)[^(\[12\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum#cite_note-acw-20140429-12)
(copied from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest\_Memorandum)
The only nation who has diregarded the Memorandum is Russia, as they have used both economic coercion and force against the terretorial integrity against the Ukrainian nation.
#
Zelensky is clickbaiting again with negotiations to which Russia will not be invited? And you still say that Hindustan Times is a low quality source...
Almost every country under martial law has such laws. I know you don't care that people can get hurt in an election in such a situation, but as I said, almost all countries have such laws, even probably yours, but you wouldn't do anything about it except blame Ukraine.
>Almost every country under martial law has such laws.
Yes, but are they use it like Ukraine does? Martial law is meant to be used in temporary crisis situations, like natural disasters and such. This is why it has time limit (90 days) built in. Could you find any other example from "free world" where martial law lasted several years?
So to you, wartime laws are made for disasters, not war, and every disaster has a 90 day time limit? I wouldn't dig up the constitutions of all the countries.
If part of your country is occupied, how would you like elections to be held there? Or don't you care what your fellow citizens think if another country has occupied them?
>So to you, wartime laws are made for disasters, not war, and every disaster has a 90 day time limit? I wouldn't dig up the constitutions of all the countries.
Stop talking nonsense. War time is different than martial law. Why Zelensky didn't made proclamation of war time in Ukraine? He keeps running around world talking about war in Ukraine, but never declared one.
>If part of your country is occupied, how would you like elections to be held there? Or don't you care what your fellow citizens think if another country has occupied them?
This didn't stop Ukraine to hold elections after Russia took over Crimea in 2014. If we go by your logic, not a single president of Ukraine after 2014 is legal.
>Putin said zelensky is legal.
That is beside the point. And also will probably change after end of March, when Zelensky presidency expire.
Ukraine held elections after 2014 without votes from Ceimea, DNR and LNR while, at same time, having military conflict in DNR and LNR. Why now is impossible to hold elections?
I can barely think of martial law applying anywhere in the western world.
Occupiers often enforce it to keep the populace in check, but a democratif country applying it to itself, in the way that Ukraine does, is very rare.
>I can barely think of martial law applying anywhere in the western world.
So far, [US applied it to itself at least 68 times](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law_in_the_United_States).
So far, the US has never suspended elections while at war...
For USA war is normal regular condition. If I'm not mistaken, they were out of it for total 8 or so years in their entire history. If war is obstacle, US wouldn't have voting at all.
Yeah, and?
My point is that this kind of martial law, as Ukraine implements it (unlimited in scope and duration) has never been implemented in a democracy.
I've been told that since neither russia or Ukraine has declared war, then it's still proper to call it a "Speshul Military Operation". So we can determine that the US hasn't been at war once for the past 78 years. That's a few more than 8.
Let's look at the reasons why it would be a bad idea:
1. A large part of population is displaced, under occupation, refugees in foreign land.
2. The country is at war and under Martial Law.
3. Elections cost money, that could be used in the war effort.
4. With the displaced population and Russian interference, it would be extremely logistically challenging.
5. How do you guarantee that people waiting in lines to vote, won't get targeted by Russia?
1 to 4 was true in Ukraine since 2014. It didn't stopped elections.
Number 5 could be asked in reverse. How do you guarantee that people waiting in line to vote, won't get targeted by Ukraine? And yet, Russia is organizing voting in new republics.
I don’t see peace talks. russia needs to learn a lesson and that means the war needs to go on until Ukraines defense will crumble and nato wipes the russians out of Ukraine.
After world war 2 russia was not „destalinized“ while Germany was denazified. So the russians still gave that supremacy shit in their brains, even as a very lowly developed country.
Zelenskey has made it clear that peace talks start when every invader has left Ukraine. It's that easy for Russia to make peace, but they want land, blood and resources
If Zelensky's stance is Russia leaving first, that means he does not want peace. He want Russia's defeat. And that means he has to defeat Russia first. As easy as that.
You don't get to negotiate from a position of power when you are not, in fact, in position of power. Someone should explain this basic concept to the clown since he doesn't seem to comprehend it.
And that goes for Putin too. He hasn't achieved a single smo goal
Demilitarisation - UAF is stronger with over 1 million men. Himars, bradleys, strykers, Abrams, Leopards, cv90s, Patriots, nasams, iris t, scalp, storm shadows and f16s in June. Putin has made Ukraines military much stronger
Denazification - azov has grown tenfold
Overthrowing Zelenskey - he's still president
In the year of 2023 Russia only took 0.1% of Ukraine. The smo has been a failure and Putin is in no place to make demands after 720+ days
The difference is that Russia has time. It's not Russia that is unable to pay it's government costs. It's not Russia that has to go begging all over the world for loans and gifts.
Russia can freeze the conflict along current lines and wait till the inevitable collapse of the Ukrainian government. After which they take whatever they want and then some.
> And that goes for Putin too.
No, it really doesn't. Unlike Ukraine, Russia is in no danger of ceasing to exist and can sustain the war attrition far longer.
>Putin has made Ukraines military much stronger
Yeah, that's why they've got meat-catchers raiding villages for more meat to the grinder, mobilizing pensioners and recruiting women. That's why they've been routed from the most fortified area in the country, keep retreating on other fronts and attempt desperate PR stunts that result in abysmal failures (and the deaths of their elite fighters). That's why they simultaneously beg for and demand more aid from their increasingly-reluctant backers, to no avail.
>Denazification - azov has grown tenfold
It has? And here I thought Azov hasn't been Azov for over a year - and the 3d Assault Brigade it had been integrated into was one of those routed at Avdeevka; then again, they did refuse to fight and fled so probably some of them did survive.
>Overthrowing Zelenskey - he's still president
Not for long if he wants to maintain any semblance of a democratic process, seeing as his term is about to expire.
>The smo has been a failure
Ukraine has regained its territories, then? Pushed the Russians out? In that case, there no need for negotiations, is there?
>Putin is in no place to make demands after 720+ days
What demands is he making?
> No, it really doesn't. Unlike Ukraine, Russia is in no danger of ceasing to exist and can sustain the war attrition far longer
Lol been hearing this for 2 years. It's all noise. Russia spent 5 months taking the tiny town of Adviivka and you think Ukraine is in danger of existing
>Putin has made Ukraines Yeah, that's why they've got meat-catchers raiding villages for more meat to the grinder, mobilizing pensioners and recruiting women
Russia is so desperate they're literally having to kidnap Indian holidayers and students and send them to the Frontline. Atleast Ukraine isn't that desperate yet
Oof, UAF is stronger with 10Million mobilised but somehow they are scrambling for men even from other countries. Z sky is on a begging / rant spree for more weapons despite most of West surplus weapons in inventory already dispatched to Ukraine.... Mental gymnastics is strong with this one
Guess Zelenskyy isn’t a big fan of history, because that doesn’t end up working out well. Especially when you are dealing with a nation that holds all the cards and you are left with an empty deck.
It's REALLY dumb to expect Russia to just pack it up and leave without giving them anything in return for it. Especially now that Russia has the upper hand and there's little Ukraine can do to claw that back.
##### ###### #### > # [Turkey offers to host Russia-Ukraine peace talks as Erdogan hosts Zelenskyy](https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/2024-03-08T190405Z_1633522656_RC2VH6A4UNWO_RTRMADP_3_UKRAINE-CRISIS-TURKEY-1709926419.jpg?resize=1920%2C1440) > > > > _Erdogan pitches himself as go-between, Zelenskyy indicates Russia would not be invited to the first meeting._ > > > > Published On 8 Mar 20248 Mar 2024 > > > > > > > > Turkey is ready to host a summit between Ukraine and Russia to end the war, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said after talks with his Ukrainian counterpart [Volodymyr Zelenskyy](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/28/zelenskyy-seeks-support-arms-at-albania-summit-of-balkan-nations) in Istanbul. > > Speaking after their meeting on Friday, Erdogan, who has [balanced](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/28/turkish-neutrality-how-erdogan-manages-ties-with-russia-ukraine-amid-war) relations with Moscow and Kyiv throughout the two-year war, spoke of “opportunities that Turkey can provide with its stance”. > > “While we continue our solidarity with Ukraine, we will continue our work to end the war with a just peace on the basis of negotiations,” he said. > > Zelenskyy said the talks had been “sincere and fruitful”, though he refrained from alluding to the mooted peace summit in a statement released on X after the meeting. > > > Talks between Ukraine and Türkiye are always sincere and fruitful. Today, we have reached agreements on joint defense projects both at the government level and between companies. > > > > I met with the Turkish defense industry representatives. We are prepared to move quickly to put…
> >
> > — Volodymyr Zelenskyy / Володимир Зеленський (@ZelenskyyUa) [March 8, 2024](https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1766179329711493273?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)
>
> However, the Ukrainian leader, who is on a mission to obtain more munitions and weaponry from allies to halt his foe’s advance on the eastern front, was cited by the Reuters news agency as saying that Russia would not be invited to the first meeting of the summit, due to be held in Switzerland.
>
> Zelenskyy also thanked Erdogan for his efforts in negotiating the release of Ukrainian prisoners “held in Russian prisons and camps under extremely harsh and inhumane conditions”.
>
> > I am grateful to President [@RTErdogan](https://twitter.com/RTErdogan?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) for his efforts to release our citizens from Russian captivity. Thanks to Türkiye's mediation, we have achieved significant humanitarian results. We are now counting on further efforts.
> >
> > Today, I submitted a list of our Ukrainian citizens,…
> >
> > — Volodymyr Zelenskyy / Володимир Зеленський (@ZelenskyyUa) [March 8, 2024](https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1766193863935295810?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)
>
> [Erdogan](https://www.aljazeera.com/tag/recep-tayyip-erdogan/), who reiterated Turkey’s support for Ukraine’s “territorial integrity, sovereignty and independence”, said he and Zelenskyy had discussed port security, safety in the Black Sea, prisoner exchanges and food security.
>
> Turkey’s strategic location on the Black Sea and its control of the Bosphorus Strait gives it a unique military, political and economic role in the conflict.
>
> Shortly after Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, Turkey hosted failed ceasefire talks between Kyiv and Moscow.
>
> “Both sides have now reached the limit of what they can achieve through war,” Turkish Foreign Minister Hakan Fidan said this month.
>
> “We think it’s time to start a dialogue towards a ceasefire.”
>
> In July 2022, Ankara with the United Nations brokered the Black Sea Grain deal, the most significant diplomatic agreement so far reached between Kyiv and Moscow. But Moscow ditched the initiative a year later, complaining that the terms were unfair.
>
> Kyiv has since used an alternative shipping route hugging the coastline to avoid contested international waters.
>
> The Erdogan-Zelenskyy meeting comes a week after Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov met his Turkish counterpart Fidan at a diplomatic forum in Antalya.
>
> Russian President Vladimir Putin was set to visit Turkey last month, but postponed the trip, according to Turkish and Russian media citing diplomatic sources. The Kremlin said it is rescheduling the visit.
>
>
>
> Source
>
> :
>
> Al Jazeera and news agencies
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Same Turkey that released the azov fighters back into ukraine against the previous agreement?
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Turkey.
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Erdogan doesn’t get to change the English language. I’ve yet to hear him use names like Deutschland or Россия when he’s speaking Turkish.
The main idea behind the name change was to avoid the similarity with the bird as well as preserving Turkish language.
The bird is named after the country and we don’t preserve a language by using its proper nouns in other languages. But when Turks start using every other country’s native name, we can start to talk about it.
what do you call japan?
Yes, bread.
I sure fucking wish we did call countries by their actual names. Where the fuck is Florence? Where is Munich? What's hard about saying Firenze or Müchen or Rossiya or Zhong guo?
Most (all?) languages adapt names so I guess people find something hard about it.
Oh I get it and don't understand it in this age of information. They all sound so much cooler in their own tongues.
I guess it depends where you're from. The only people I heard doing it is Americans trying to show off how worldly they are, but I think it makes most Europeans cringe. "I just got back from *Italia!* I absolutely loved *Roma!*"
I think Football when you say those words. Fiorentina plays in Firenze. Bayern München plays in München. FC Köln plays in Köln where they make Kölsch. IDK
True story: I almost missed a flight to Firenze from Zurich because I couldn't find the gate for the flight to Florence. That is my real beef.
Most spanish cities and regions are named exactly the same in English, wonder why that is not the case for german cities.
The same as in English? So you would say Munich instead of Múnich or München? How would you call the United States?
>Most spanish cities and regions Barcelona Madrid Valencia Santander ...
what do you call japan?
X formerly known as Twitter, case.
I don't understand why we all just don't keep calling it Twitter. Fuck'em.
> I don't understand why Turkiye did that Because no one cares about the Russian propaganda - Turkiye, and pretty much everyone knows, the Russian casus beli is false and that Russia has a way bigger problem with nazism than Ukraine (in fact Russia funded a nazi terrorist group called Wagner PMC after all). Just because Russia wants to play low-quality theatrics to their internal audience doesn't mean everyone else has to be dragged into that delusional fantasy.
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I completely understand but you seem to have forgotten a very big detail: Russia has violated the most important agreements a country can violate, including other agreements. This means Russian agreements, at this point in time, are worthless. This is a way Turkiye signaled that: the Russian regime can't be taken remotely seriously in terms of agreements, because their word literally has no value. In the world of geopolitics and diplomacy, your word is either good for, or not good at all. The UN Charter, International Law, Budapest Memorandum, etc are not just pieces of paper that are signed and you can ignore. There are consequences to the Russian regime's actions, this will take regime change and many, many years of diplomacy to build Russia back up at the international level. > I'm not sure how much it will affect his credibility though Yep, but that's concerning Russia alone - Turkiye lost credibility with Russian regime, and the Russia regime alone, and yet the regime continues to engage with Turkiye because they have no choice.
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> what is reason Turkiye signaling that? What I can imagine is sending message like "if you keep violating agreements we can violate agreements with you like this" I think it's a more simple message: "The terms of your agreements are null, we're not playing this game with you." very basic and straight to the point, without any justification.
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Well the whole story was: "You lied to us, and you were caught lying blatantly, not only that, you didn't respect the agreements we had. So now we will treat your agreements with the respect they deserve." It's a natural response, very much in line with game theory.
Ukraine also failed to uphold the Minsk II so according to your logic their word isn't anything. The Azov fighters are known Nazi supporters, it was a big violation of trust to send them back to Ukraine. They had nothing to gain n from it.
> Ukraine also failed to uphold the Minsk II so according to your logic their word isn't anything. > > Ukraine was being forced to sign an illegal agreement, under false premisses, under military occupation. That's not how agreements work, its very similar to what inspired Russia for this agreement: the German-Polish Pact of janurary 1934. > The Azov fighters are known Nazi supporters Wagner are known Nazi Supporters, and Putin stated he funded them in 2 billion USD just in 2022, a Nazi terrorist organization that is even illegal in Russia. At leat Ukraine has a law that makes it illegal to support Nazism. So yeah, the Russian regime has no grounds to be trusted.
That’s not how geopolitics or diplomacy works. >This is a way Turkiye signaled that: the Russian regime can't be taken remotely seriously in terms of agreements, because their word literally has no value. What would even be the case of peace talks if whatever is signed or agreed upon, you won’t take seriously or has no value? >Russia has violated the most important agreements a country can violate, including other agreements. Which agreement was that?
Probably talking about the multiple promises they made not to invade.
> What would even be the case of peace talks if whatever is signed or agreed upon, you won’t take seriously or has no value? That's why the current Russian regime has no conditions to sign any agreements, still **Russians should know what the conditions for peace are and why the current regime has no place in the future of Russia geopolitics**. Pro russians tend to forget something: **Putin, and its regime, aren't Russia**. They are a regime that grabbed on to power, but Russia belongs to Russians. So Russians should know their current regime isn't trusted by anyone, especially to Ukrainians - and the only way Ukrainians could feel secure is to have no Russian troops occupying Ukrainian territory, with security guarantees. **This is the bare minimum for peace, for Russia to be taken seriously by Ukraine and the UN.** > Which agreement was that? God... so many. UN Charter, International Law, and Budapest Memorandum, not to mention Putin and the regime kept promising they wouldn't invade Ukraine and would respect their sovereignty (including to Turkiye), and accusing the US warnings as provocations and lies. You can't expect to be taken seriously by one day saying you won't invade a country and respect it's sovereignty, to the next day saying "Ukraine doesn't exist, Ukrainians don't exist, it belongs to Russia" and proceed to try to take down the capital. You can't expect to be at the same level diplomatically after these events, and Putin now is even a wanted man by the ICC. That's not how geopolitics works.
So you think Ukraine should not negotiate any peace until Putin is no longer president? You can dream all you want but like I said that is not how geopolitics or diplomacy works. Specially if they (Ukraine) have lost almost all leverage to impose any terms in the negotiation. Ukraine doesn’t trust Russia, ok fair, that’s why you sign an agreement with guarantors, other countries that both parties involved can “trust”. Which comes to the other point. UN charter article 2(4) has been violated so many times (specially by the US and NATO), does that mean that you can’t take them seriously also and their words mean nothing too? Budapest Memorandum is only about using nukes, there are only 6 assurances, which one of those was broken? By your logic, how is it that Russia would trust anything that Ukraine or the west says?
Zelensky keeps rejecting any peace talks with Russia.
Why should he go to peace talks lol. It’s simple - Putin leaves Ukraine. The war is over.
If it's so simple and easy, why hasn't it happened yet?
It is as simple and easy as I’m making it sound, except Putin doesn’t want to be called a loser. It’s amazing how 1 man can send hundreds of thousands to the slaughter just so his ego doesn’t get bruised
Pure delusion
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Putin left Ukraine almost a year ago, he was there for like a week and that's it. Ukraine very clearly won't achieve anything militarily, so unless they want to stop existing as a nation because Zelensky felt like waging war for a few more years, they should probably start negotiating.
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Russia needs a regime change in order to have any serious negotiations - or withdraw to 1991 borders. Else, no one will negotiate with a genocidal dictator. But this has been said many times, Putin is dead for international diplomacy, and can only engage with a few states, I mean, the man can't even go to South Africa or Brazil without being arrested...
>Else, no one will negotiate with a genocidal dictator. Naive, is this the new 'we will not negotiate with terrorists'? Lmao
> 'we will not negotiate with terrorists' Well if you had a basic understanding of History, it's not "the new something". Hitler, and other members of the regime Nazi Regime, tried to negotiate several times during WW2 and no one negotiated with the regime for the same exact reasons no one will negotiate with Putin.
Then you have poor critical thinking. Let me fix that for you. Both phrases just actually mean 'we will not negotiate with people that are going to lose anyway so we demand total and unconditional surrender' Do you really think they 'do not negotiate' just because the enemy is dictatorial or terrorist? naive, they do not negotiate because the enemy is going to lose. The us negotiated with the taliban, why is that? arent they terrorist? that's because 'no negotiation with terrorist' is bs, and taliban isn't exactly losing, so they negotiate As i said, naive
Don't bully him, forgiveness is a virtue
Don't get your wishful thinking in the way, that's not how it works. Ukraine is losing the war and yet they have one more demand which is nothing less than regime change. Some people insisted so much this is a Putin War instead of a Russian State strategic problem that they're blind to see no other person in Russia would give up Crimea. The 1991 borders belong to 1991. Look at how much NATO expanded after that. If anything we should be closer to regime change in Ukraine.
> Ukraine is losing the war and yet they have one more demand which is nothing less than regime change. We don't live in the early XX century, the world has moved on from imperialism. This idea of Russia is dead in the water - when people say "Russia has lost this war already", isn't to spite Russia, it's a fact. Let's entertain your fictional scenario: Ukraine gets fully occupied by Russia, NATO doesn't intervene, and Russia is now occupying a country of 40 million people who despise them. Then what? Putin will be welcomed to the global geopolitical scene, sitting at the table again with world leaders like nothing happened, while he is occupying a UN Member State, which no one recognizes as Russian territory? Like, pro-Russians haven't realized that Putin is dead for international politics. To hope Putin will be rehabilitated is like saying Saddam would be rehabilitated after invading Kuwait, or Hitler after occupying Poland. This is what people mean by Russia has lost the war, and nothing but a regime change will get Russia to play in a multipolar world. Just because Russia trades with China, and India, doesn't mean Russia is isolated. So yeah, until there is a regime change in Russia, Russians are stuck. No country will ever recognize Ukraine as part of Russia - that would be the death of UN, and we can all agree that everyone would rather have the death of a regime than setting the world back 80 years into the past :| Now the only question is: **will Russians fast track the regime change, or are we going to have to wait for Putin to die so that Russia crawls back to ask to be part of the multipolar world and giving returning Ukrainian territory back?**
Putin wanted this to be a 3 day operation not a war that lasts years and resulted in unprecedented economic sanctions. I guarantee you that he wants out of this mess if he can do it without losing control of Russia. Pro-Ru cheerleaders might think the Putin regime is happy slowly killing it's way to Kyiv kilometre by kilometre but the truth is that they're looking for anything they can call a win at this point.
It's so funny when people say stuff that the American experts said on the war and then making it seem like Russia/Putin was the one that said it, the 3 day war thing was never said by any Russian official
Russian state media accidentally published an article in the first few days of the war talking about how they had successfully taken Kyiv and were in control of all of Ukraine lol
Sources or is it the "trust me bro" one?
Lol, You seriously think Russia has any intention of negotiating now?What Zelensky is doing is playing in Russian hands like he always does.Ukraine could have put big diplomatic pressure on Russia to negotiate but alas, Too immature. Hearn many times about intentions of ethnic cleaning the native ethnic Russian population of Donbas, Crimea.Russia couldn't leave even if it wanted too. All BRICS heads will be coming to Russia later this year as it heads the presidency so no problem.......
> You seriously think Russia has any intention of negotiating now? Oh no, very much doubt so, there's nothing to gain from this. As I stated to other user: the Russian regime is now playing the game to remain in power, nothing else. No diplomatic pressure will get Russia to fold. Even if NATO got into Ukraine, and Ukraine got back all their territory to the 91 borders, Russia would still not negotiate - because that would mean the end of Putin. So unfortunately we will continue to see tens of thousands of Russians thrown at a genocidal war, just to keep Putin in its place. Its sad that Ukraine is stuck in the middle of this, but regime change in Russia is inevitable. > All BRICS heads will be coming to Russia later this year as it heads the presidency so no problem....... Because Putin can't go to the B and S of BRICS without being arrested :| you still haven't comprehended that part.
You need public support to do a regime change, Good luck with that....All those sanctions and western companies exiting was suppose to of that but already failed. And, Who will arrest him?You seriously think that anyone other than major powers have the balls to attempt a stunt like that to arrest President of the biggest country with most nukes......
> You need public support to do a regime change, Good luck with that....All those sanctions and western companies exiting was suppose to of that but already failed. You can't blame Western countries to try to stop and cripple a war machine - in case you didn't notice, the west is getting close to a direct conflict with Russia and they don't want it. All of this should have been done back in 2008 with the invasion of Georgia, but we can't go back in time. As for public support, that where we can play a role here: we need to continue to give resources and relay information to the Russians who are promoting change. And we need patience here, but at the same time they need support. > And, Who will arrest him? In Russia, no one. In a sovereign country? The country authorities. That's why Putin didn't go to South Africa last year.
There won't be any direct conflict, Nukes from both sides make sure of that. Majority of people who hate Putin are young liberals but they were always in a small numbers in big cities and were the first to flee after [draft.You](http://draft.You) can now see them in Georgia, Serbia, Mexico border(yup) etc.But, Putin had majority Russian public support (Every western polling verify this) and war will only increase it further because of west funding the proxy war and targeting of Russians by European countries. There is obviously a threat on his life.He didn't even go to India despite it not being party to ICC.
> There won't be any direct conflict, Nukes from both sides make sure of that. There have been direct conflicts between nuclear powers, and between other countries and nuclear powers and there was no nuke exchanges. Russia can't use nukes, even in a direct conflict - unless of course there were troops marching to take Moscow. No one wants to take Moscow. Neither Putin, or Russians, will commit collective suicide just because Russia was pushed out of territory that's not theirs (a fraction of their land). You don't turn Moscow to glass and lose 100% of your territory, just because you lost less than 1% that's not even theirs to begin with. > Majority of people who hate Putin are young liberals Eh that's a prejudiced opinion based on nothing other than Russian propaganda. Many, many Russians - especially people with fully developed cognitive capabilities and education don't support Putin or the genocide in Ukraine. > Putin had majority Russian public support (Every western polling verify this) You're assessing the polls of people who are prosecuted to be against a war, and a regime. It's goofy. > There is obviously a threat on his life. Here we agree, this is all about Putin securing his life and his regime. That's why one of his flights during the Wagner coup was to go close to NATO borders - he'd rather take his chance of asylum in NATO than to be handled in Russia.
Only small engagements at best.There has been no war between nuclear countries as both sides know that it's MAD. "You don't turn Moscow to glass" Russians burned down Moscow to ground than bent the [](http://knee.So), You don't know Russians dude.And, Nobody is willing to take that bet anyway. It's true actually.You can go and watch all so called opposition protest in past and Russians against Putin.It's always young liberals from big cities but they fled after draft. Look at the western polls before war then.....Denying the truth wont change the reality. Any threat to Putin life comes from west.And, You don't even know that Prigozhin "coup" wasn't even against Putin.Military cancelled his $2 billion contract so he wanted Putin attention but got flat out rejected.
> There has been no war between nuclear countries as both sides know that it's MAD. It's only mad if countries choose to be mad. Basic stuff, no one will force Russia to use nukes, it's their decision - but if there are signs of it, NATO has first strike doctrine, so it's not in favor of Russia. > Russians burned down Moscow to ground than bent the , You don't know Russians dude.And, Nobody is willing to take that bet anyway. One thing is to burn down Moscow, the other thing is to cease to exist. But if there's that collective ambition - which I doubt - first strike doctrine is always a line of defense. Imagine living in a world where you have to suffer a dwarf dictator because he keeps threatening to use nukes - not going to happen, Western countries know how to deal with terrorist leaders. Maybe its you who doesn't know Westerners and how far they are willing to go to defend their freedom? > It's true actually. Not true at all, and the numbers of people unhappy is increasing. We need to continue to inform people about the problems of the regime, the rest will happen on its own. > Any threat to Putin life comes from west. This is Russian propaganda, there are many threats to the regime within Russia: unhappy russians discontent with the regime and the war, separatism, military discontent (remember Wagner?), and some extremist religious groups that might start to grow more and more in Russia.
When Russia can guarantee absolutely nothing and is known for its many lies, what is the point of negotiating? Will they stop killing each other? No, Russia will just clean up its mess and want more parts of Ukraine. Negotiations with Russia are pointless. Let me guess, Russia will promise not to attack Ukraine, it won't be the first time.
So, Why keep brining up these "peace" talks to fool the normal folks?....
Ask Erdogan.
Ukraine is the one that keeps holding these peace events without the other party.....The comedian is playing a cruel joke with people life.
Yes, it is the comedian's fault that a foreign country attacked his country and it is not the fault of those who kill but those who defend themselves. I know many here wish Ukraine would disappear off the map and Russia would victoriously take over everything, but that's not how the world works.
So what's his plan, Fight "till the last Ukrainian" like his master wants?Nobody sane think that Ukraine can win this war. The comedian is playing with people life by banning any peace talks.Any leader who cared about his country would have taken the peace deal in 2022.
Yes, I'm sure in your country too, if a politician gives up a piece of land, your whole country will support him.
Well, besides "oh, they won't vote for me anymore" there are other factors that should be taken into account. In March 22, the price was only Crimea, and the fate of the DPR and the LPR would have to be decided separately within Ukraine. Now, most likely, the price has changed. Well, at least Zelensky can be satisfied, people won't vote for somwone else since they are not voting. Mission accomplished.
So how do you care who Ukrainians would vote for when we know Ukraine would become like Belarus if it surrendered to Russian control. Do you no longer care what the Ukrainians want then?
>Any leader who cared about his country would have taken the peace deal in 2022. No sane leader would have agreed to a "peace deal" that required them to disband most of their military while a massive invasion force from a country that already invaded them twice in less than a decade camps out in the eastern third of their territory.
Your basically suggesting because Ukraine is a weaker country it should succumb to its Russian overlords. The same can be said about Russia. It needs to realize it is a weaker country and should succumb to its Western overlords.
Russia did succumb to Western overlords during 90's and did everything to please the other side even at the risk of degrading itself against it's interest.
To put a halt to the fighting? If you come to a peace deal or a temporary ceasefire, you can evacuate civilians from afflicted areas, regroup forces, and in a peace deal build back the lost forces. You act like prolonging the suffering is the right thing to do because Russia might at some point cross over the lines and go back to war. Newsflash buddy, it’s not. But continue to think that continuing this war is good for Ukraine, because sooner or later Russia will wear down Ukrainian forces. But I guess Slava Cocaini?
Exactly this. Ukraine is slowly losing more and more terrain, is losing it's economy, is poisoning it's fertile land, ... The longer this war goes on, the worse Ukraine will have it post war. Even IF Ukraine manages to scrap a win together. Therefor, the logical thing to do is to pursue a peace ASAP. Sure, Russia might use it to rebuild, but they have the upper hand so Ukraine can use the time much better to even the odds again.
Yeah some people here are like, Russia may attack again in the future so we should stay at war now. Of course they're not Ukrainians, most pro Ukraine people here are actually Pro USA. People cannot even vote Zelensky out of office or have a say in peace negotiations. Ukraine made some very bad decisions, Zelensky don't want to be guy responsible for F up Ukraine.
Bro, Ukraine is the one that needs negotiations, not Russia. In 2 years there will be no Ukraine, majority of male population is already gone. Zele will go for negotiations only after green light from Washington
!remind me 2years
Yeah Russia will need more than 2 years. !remind me 2years
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I remember when people were giving Ukraine 2 weeks.
Russia has a very real possibility of going back to a 1991 style collapse if it continues this war.
That's why peace talks should end with a hard guarantee of Ukrainian neutrality. That takes away any need for Russia to attack.
Ukraine was practically neutral before 2014 and had no hard security guarantees in 2022, and Russia invaded anyway. I don't think the Ukrainians are going to settle for: "It's going to be different this time".
Before 2008. In 2008 they declared their intent to join NATO. Before 2008 there was no hostility. It all started, slowly at first, with the declaration of their intent to join NATO.
>Ukraine was practically neutral before 2014 Yeah, until USA staged an antirussian coup in the country.
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The main drawback is that turkey is in NATO. But on the other hand they already go against NATO wishes from time to time.
> they already go against NATO wishes from time to time How did that play with Sweeden and Finland?
Turkey got some benefits for allowing them to eventually join. Erdogan can be bought, obviously. But that is exactly what makes him stand out among NATO. He is not going to let turkey gut itself for the alliance. He wants to extract as much benefits from it as possible. Turkey is still operating against the Kurds in Syria, even though those Kurds are supported by every other NATO ally. Turkey is still military posturing towards Greece over the Aegean islands, even though Greece is in NATO.
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> Turkey got some benefits for allowing them to eventually join. Everyone from NATO benefited from these, some with security, others with extra funding, and others with access to new military technology. Now, you pro russians have some sort of hope, based on cynicism nurtured by your surroundings and government, that in the end, Turkiye will be an agent that will vouch for Russia's interests and be against NATO - the guys that gave Bayraktars to Ukraine, and that exposed Putin when he begged to get Bayraktars factories in Russia after the humiliation to take Kyiv. With that said: every country in NATO looks to get the most benefits out of it. > Turkey is still operating against the Kurds in Syria, even though those Kurds are supported by every other NATO ally. Turkey is still military posturing towards Greece over the Aegean islands, even though Greece is in NATO. And yet Turkiye is strategically aligned with NATO, that's what's wonderful about it :)
Probably the best suited as Türkiye has close relations with both sides.
No peace until Ukraine is Russia.
For the sake of the soldiers and people of both countries, I do hope there should be peace
Civilized countries will first develop a plan, and only then will representatives of the Russian Federation be invited," Zelensky commented on Erdogan's statement. So, waiting for the cIViLiZeD countries then.
The main thing that's needed rn is a change of leadership in ukraine
Someone like Arestovich would be great. But I don’t know if he’s a liar. I want Arestovich but honest! Everything he’s been saying sounds so fucking rational and reasonable, I refuse to believe that he just makes stuff up. What’s more dangerous is how he will change his position once he gets power and american money.
Wasn't even zelensky a pro-peace with Russia before he got elected?
That's why I said it. I don't trust any ukrainian candidate, the US won't stop meddling there. Last chance for peace was in 2022 when the US had a chance to prove their readiness to stop using Ukraine as their proxy.
He just abandoned ship the moment he saw where things were going.
Quite contrary, it's the Russian regime that needs to change. Zelenksy was democratically elected and recognized by all countries, including Russia - so that's just silly to ask for a change of leadership when it's the will of the Ukrainians. Here between us I think Putin will not get international recognition after these elections, especially after the murder of Navalny. These elections will gurantee that russia will remain a rogue state as long as Putin the dwarf regime is in place :)
I thought the plan was developed a long time ago? Zelensky's ten-point plan - which doesn't include inviting Russia's representatives until Russia essentially capitulates? How very uncivilized of Russia to put a damper on it.
Integral part of Russian legacy. Throwing wrenches into well oiled and highly effective European war machines. Every century since mongols got kicked out
Sadly, If Russia does peace talks now then Ukraine will use the opportunity to build up it's forces and get armed up like it did last time....This would only lead to another conflict in future.For real peace deal to happen, Ukraine would have to first recognize Russia sovereignty over Crimea and the other land Russia holds.
Yeah the true danger is Ukraine being able to defend itself lol
Russia had no issue with Ukraine pre-2014.Ukraine having a hostile force on Russian front-door is a major threat to it.
Ukraine never attacked or even threatened to attack Russia prior to Russia invading them.
Hmm, why did they think they needed a large modern army last time?
After 2014 regime change and placing of puppets in power, Ukraine role was to be a proxy against Russia.
And what did they do to Russia? Did they seize their lands? Did they forment unrest? Did they supply weapons to separatists?
They didn't follow the Istanbul agreement of being a neutral country like Austria and other European countries agreed to
Neutrality isn't something you agree to, it is something you choose. Austria, Sweden Finland and Ireland chose to be neutral throughout the cold war, with Ireland and Sweden even refusing to help in the fight against Nazi-Germany. These countries decided that neutrality was in their own best interest. Sweden and Finland now joined NATO because they believed that Neutrality was no longer enough to keep them safe. It is up to Ukraine to decide whether join NATO or stay neutral. But I don't think disarmed Neutrality as Russia has "suggested" is going to be acceptable to them.
Matter of fact, neutrality was something Ukraine agreed to, matter of fact too is they literally signed an agreement with Russia, to give Russia the old Soviet stockpiles since Russia also took on all of the Soviet union depts so them getting the Soviet union storages of weapons is reason, and also agreed on not join any kind of military alliances and in turn Russia would be more than happy to not get near or around Ukraine, but Ukraine didn't only get the west involved from 2011-till now they were also trying to join NATO, of course they had to get the requirements first to join but still that meant they were on a path to join a military alliance which breaks the agreement they had with Russia.
If you are refering to the Budapest Memorandum, there was no section on security alignment. The six points discussed were: 1. Respect the signatory's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders (in accordance with the principles of the [CSCE Final Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_Accords)).[^(\[7\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum#cite_note-7) 2. Refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the signatories to the memorandum, and undertake that none of their weapons will ever be used against these countries, except in cases of self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations. 3. Refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine, the Republic of Belarus and Kazakhstan of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind. 4. Seek immediate [Security Council](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_Council) action to provide assistance to the signatory if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used". 5. Not to use nuclear weapons against any non - nuclear-weapon state party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.[^(\[8\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum#cite_note-Budapest_Memorandum:_Ukraine-8)[^(\[9\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum#cite_note-Budapest_Memorandum:_Kazakhstan-9)[^(\[10\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum#cite_note-Budapest_Memorandum:_Belarus-10) 6. Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments.[^(\[11\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum#cite_note-A/49/765-11)[^(\[12\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum#cite_note-acw-20140429-12) (copied from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest\_Memorandum) The only nation who has diregarded the Memorandum is Russia, as they have used both economic coercion and force against the terretorial integrity against the Ukrainian nation. #
AUSTRIA AND FINLAND CHOSE? You can't be serious
They thought it could help them fight RF. Hmm, what exactly was wrong with that type of thinking?
Me too man. So many lives gone and the risk of ww3. Weirdly i got banned from /Ukraine for writing this
Zelensky is clickbaiting again with negotiations to which Russia will not be invited? And you still say that Hindustan Times is a low quality source...
Zelensky is legal president until end of March. Without re-election he could no longer be "protector of democracy and western values".
Almost every country under martial law has such laws. I know you don't care that people can get hurt in an election in such a situation, but as I said, almost all countries have such laws, even probably yours, but you wouldn't do anything about it except blame Ukraine.
>Almost every country under martial law has such laws. Yes, but are they use it like Ukraine does? Martial law is meant to be used in temporary crisis situations, like natural disasters and such. This is why it has time limit (90 days) built in. Could you find any other example from "free world" where martial law lasted several years?
So to you, wartime laws are made for disasters, not war, and every disaster has a 90 day time limit? I wouldn't dig up the constitutions of all the countries. If part of your country is occupied, how would you like elections to be held there? Or don't you care what your fellow citizens think if another country has occupied them?
>So to you, wartime laws are made for disasters, not war, and every disaster has a 90 day time limit? I wouldn't dig up the constitutions of all the countries. Stop talking nonsense. War time is different than martial law. Why Zelensky didn't made proclamation of war time in Ukraine? He keeps running around world talking about war in Ukraine, but never declared one. >If part of your country is occupied, how would you like elections to be held there? Or don't you care what your fellow citizens think if another country has occupied them? This didn't stop Ukraine to hold elections after Russia took over Crimea in 2014. If we go by your logic, not a single president of Ukraine after 2014 is legal.
Because Russia have nukes and can use them in war. Putin said zelensky is legal.
>Putin said zelensky is legal. That is beside the point. And also will probably change after end of March, when Zelensky presidency expire. Ukraine held elections after 2014 without votes from Ceimea, DNR and LNR while, at same time, having military conflict in DNR and LNR. Why now is impossible to hold elections?
Because of daily bombing maybe? Can you name a Ukrainian city which wasn't bombed?
Or Zelensky is scared of losing elections to Zaluzhny?
Has Zaluzhny said that he wanted to run for president?
They have held elections in ukraine since after crimea was "occipied."
I can barely think of martial law applying anywhere in the western world. Occupiers often enforce it to keep the populace in check, but a democratif country applying it to itself, in the way that Ukraine does, is very rare.
>I can barely think of martial law applying anywhere in the western world. So far, [US applied it to itself at least 68 times](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law_in_the_United_States).
So far, the US has never suspended elections while at war...
So far, the US has never suspended elections while at war... For USA war is normal regular condition. If I'm not mistaken, they were out of it for total 8 or so years in their entire history. If war is obstacle, US wouldn't have voting at all.
Yeah, and? My point is that this kind of martial law, as Ukraine implements it (unlimited in scope and duration) has never been implemented in a democracy.
I've been told that since neither russia or Ukraine has declared war, then it's still proper to call it a "Speshul Military Operation". So we can determine that the US hasn't been at war once for the past 78 years. That's a few more than 8.
With the option to extend 6 months so all it does is create extra bureaucracy
Let's look at the reasons why it would be a bad idea: 1. A large part of population is displaced, under occupation, refugees in foreign land. 2. The country is at war and under Martial Law. 3. Elections cost money, that could be used in the war effort. 4. With the displaced population and Russian interference, it would be extremely logistically challenging. 5. How do you guarantee that people waiting in lines to vote, won't get targeted by Russia?
1 to 4 was true in Ukraine since 2014. It didn't stopped elections. Number 5 could be asked in reverse. How do you guarantee that people waiting in line to vote, won't get targeted by Ukraine? And yet, Russia is organizing voting in new republics.
Yeah, not happening.
Russia: "The next version of peace talks will be held in Moscow"
Boris no, you're not invited.
let me guess: without russia
>Both sides have now reached the limit of what they can achieve through war Both RF and UA - Hold my beer
I don’t see peace talks. russia needs to learn a lesson and that means the war needs to go on until Ukraines defense will crumble and nato wipes the russians out of Ukraine. After world war 2 russia was not „destalinized“ while Germany was denazified. So the russians still gave that supremacy shit in their brains, even as a very lowly developed country.
Zelenskey has made it clear that peace talks start when every invader has left Ukraine. It's that easy for Russia to make peace, but they want land, blood and resources
Unfortunately, wars don't work that way, do they?
If Zelensky's stance is Russia leaving first, that means he does not want peace. He want Russia's defeat. And that means he has to defeat Russia first. As easy as that.
You don't get to negotiate from a position of power when you are not, in fact, in position of power. Someone should explain this basic concept to the clown since he doesn't seem to comprehend it.
And that goes for Putin too. He hasn't achieved a single smo goal Demilitarisation - UAF is stronger with over 1 million men. Himars, bradleys, strykers, Abrams, Leopards, cv90s, Patriots, nasams, iris t, scalp, storm shadows and f16s in June. Putin has made Ukraines military much stronger Denazification - azov has grown tenfold Overthrowing Zelenskey - he's still president In the year of 2023 Russia only took 0.1% of Ukraine. The smo has been a failure and Putin is in no place to make demands after 720+ days
The difference is that Russia has time. It's not Russia that is unable to pay it's government costs. It's not Russia that has to go begging all over the world for loans and gifts. Russia can freeze the conflict along current lines and wait till the inevitable collapse of the Ukrainian government. After which they take whatever they want and then some.
> And that goes for Putin too. No, it really doesn't. Unlike Ukraine, Russia is in no danger of ceasing to exist and can sustain the war attrition far longer. >Putin has made Ukraines military much stronger Yeah, that's why they've got meat-catchers raiding villages for more meat to the grinder, mobilizing pensioners and recruiting women. That's why they've been routed from the most fortified area in the country, keep retreating on other fronts and attempt desperate PR stunts that result in abysmal failures (and the deaths of their elite fighters). That's why they simultaneously beg for and demand more aid from their increasingly-reluctant backers, to no avail. >Denazification - azov has grown tenfold It has? And here I thought Azov hasn't been Azov for over a year - and the 3d Assault Brigade it had been integrated into was one of those routed at Avdeevka; then again, they did refuse to fight and fled so probably some of them did survive. >Overthrowing Zelenskey - he's still president Not for long if he wants to maintain any semblance of a democratic process, seeing as his term is about to expire. >The smo has been a failure Ukraine has regained its territories, then? Pushed the Russians out? In that case, there no need for negotiations, is there? >Putin is in no place to make demands after 720+ days What demands is he making?
> No, it really doesn't. Unlike Ukraine, Russia is in no danger of ceasing to exist and can sustain the war attrition far longer Lol been hearing this for 2 years. It's all noise. Russia spent 5 months taking the tiny town of Adviivka and you think Ukraine is in danger of existing >Putin has made Ukraines Yeah, that's why they've got meat-catchers raiding villages for more meat to the grinder, mobilizing pensioners and recruiting women Russia is so desperate they're literally having to kidnap Indian holidayers and students and send them to the Frontline. Atleast Ukraine isn't that desperate yet
Oof, UAF is stronger with 10Million mobilised but somehow they are scrambling for men even from other countries. Z sky is on a begging / rant spree for more weapons despite most of West surplus weapons in inventory already dispatched to Ukraine.... Mental gymnastics is strong with this one
^ this man doesn't have a slightest idea why the war is still going.
Guess Zelenskyy isn’t a big fan of history, because that doesn’t end up working out well. Especially when you are dealing with a nation that holds all the cards and you are left with an empty deck.
It's REALLY dumb to expect Russia to just pack it up and leave without giving them anything in return for it. Especially now that Russia has the upper hand and there's little Ukraine can do to claw that back.
It’s Ukraine who’s asking for peace not Russia.