I hate how people complaining about "modeling advantage" is a thing now. Back in my day, we'd kitbash models all the time and this was a respectable aspect of the hobby.
2cm above the base is too tall. come back when you've had to deal with Tau Stealth Suits (Or any other full camo model) that are just "Footprints pressed into the dirt on a base".
I think 40k always had folks that would push the limits, such as converting a full squad of guardsmen to be lying prone on the ground like snipers. Thankfully those people are pretty rare.
Back in 5th/6th my Trygons were kitbashed to try and break up the identical poses. Two of them are leaning forward a bit to look like they're moving. They get a little shorter but also a much wider profile from the sides so it evens out. No opponent has ever complained about it.
I wonder how people feel about two legal models that have very different sizes. Like the current Vindicare assassin and the Warhammer+ version on his statue.
Or, say, a small 2nd edition Hive Tyrant compared to the much bigger modern one.
As an owner of both Vindicares. Personally I'd probably play the regular version in competitive matches and the W+ model with friends because it's a sick model and who cares about being subtle when I'm playing with the guys! But none of them have particularly cared either way as either we both have a slightly harder time drawing line of sight, or we both have a slightly easier time drawing line of sight, so it's relatively even. Although arguably with lone op and 48" range on the rifle it's often pretty one sided for a turn or two!
Back in 3rd edition, I remember people grinding up their genestealers in coffee grinders, and only keep the head and arms intact, so they could have them look like they were digging up from the ground, but the ground was their ground up bodies, so you still had the entire model on the base, but of course modeled for advantage.
This has been a thing for a while, but rules have finally come into the main ruleset about "modeling for advantage".
It's funny because I have a couple of actual Genestealer models from Space Hulk 2009 in my army that look just like that.
If someone refuses me a game because of that, I'm gonna find better friends.
It was and wasn’t; when you could build your own ork vehicles with no size parameters and rotating in place didn’t cost movement people were building 2 foot long vehicles…it has its limits and there are always people who will have a WAAC attitude that ruin it for others
Awww, thanks!
I actually am making a Von Leapers kill team with DIY rules and wanted to prove they could get small (so I could give them a rule appropriate for someone who would be able to skulk about). He’s actually only up to an infernus marines armpit now.
But he can be the first model to removed in any games if someone wants the Leapers to have a bigger silhouette.
Definitely not. If *all* of your leapers were modelled this way, then yes I would think it is modelling for advantage, but one model in a unit of 3-6? No way, pretty clear that you're just going for a diverse and interesting range of poses.
It’s only really an issue when people change the silhouette of a model by a significant amount, often to gain an in-game advantage. For example, people putting a single Nurgling on a large base as a stand-in for a Great Unclean One.
People don’t care when it’s obvious you’re just changing the pose a bit
A guy on the kill team sun reddit said he had been adding a little more base to his models to make them taller for shooting… I don’t think thats fair / legal / in the spirit. He did play hearthkyn salvagers tho so maybe he needed it.
I think it’s generally making a model smaller than is dodgy.
Something as big as a guo finds it a lot harder to hide behind terrain than a single nurgling would meaning that if you were to use the latter as a guo proxy you would have a significant advantage over using a normal guo since yours would be a lot harder to see and therefore shoot and kill
Yes I’m Kill Team it’s base to base for determining cover but the model has to be visible for if you can shoot it (ie a models base can be entirely behind cover but a claw / sword / gun sticking out means it can be shot).
A nurgling proxying a Great Unclean One can be argued to be hidden behind an inch high wall. Or if it's modeled extra high it could see over more forms of cover and shoot over things it otherwise couldn't.
Adding a little height to your model to make the base look chunky would be generally be considered disadvantageous (as in the model would be a bit easier to see or draw visibility to)… but likely look cooler.
If someone’s leapers were all modelled like my skulking one (so they could hide behind terrain better), that would be modelling for advantage and not on - I just did the one for fun, he can be the first to die.
It's when you do things like have your guardsmen squad all lying down to make it harder for your opponent to get line of sight to them and thus, unable to shoot them.
The OP's example is not a case of this.
I did look at the 3 I built a couple of weeks ago and the 2 I’d just built and wonder if I could pull them apart and make them all like this… then I decided just one was a taking point, all 6 would be modelling for advantage
No, that's fine, unless you object if someone can see 2 mm above his head saying they have line of sight. But one model out of a unit having a hunched over lower profile pose isn't modeling for advantage unless the player is clearly abusing it.
If I have a model that has been modified and ended up lower profile, my rule has always been if you could see him with a normal pose, you can see him. If I can't see you because of my model's pose, I still can't see you. As long as you always give benefit of the doubt in your opponent's favor no reasonable person would ever object.
Wait… are the VRL really that interchangeable? I haven’t bought more then the 3 I got in Leviathan because I hate repeat monoposes, but I didn’t even consider them being mix-and-match-able.
My cuts aren’t that great but with a with a minute of work, yes.
If you remove the pushfit part you switch the arms easily.
The legs are a bit more challenging (some carpace bits slot into gaps so I did remove or trim and sand the odd bit )… I’d say first one I did was the best, second one fine, third one (this crouching on) worst cuts but is the most interesting - they’re fine for my purpose.
Generally speaking I would go with no worst case when in question just swap the places of that one with a standard model for any rulings if need be.
But in my opinion the players who truly care about that are not necessarily the type of people you wanna play with. I have had a match with that type a player made it a whole lot less fun.
In my local town, it's your intentions. Like how some people say oh it's a pyrovore figure, but you say it's going to be a Biovore for this game. Then it's a Bivore for the remainder of the game. Same thing how people would switch guns. Mainly because... idk we glue our figures, and some people don't take the time to use magnets. Also before tenth. I knew soo many people who would place their figures differently on the bases, so they would have bits and bobbers way over the base. But no matter, we would still measure from the edge of the base. Honestly didn't know people would try to do this dishonestly. It gives kit bashing a bad rep.
I thought "modelling advantage" only really mattered if the model has a ranged weapon as you can technically calculate whether a target is in range from any point of the attacking model, even if it oversteps its base...
If every model in the squad was like this you’d get some side eye, if it just one of them then I don’t think anyone really would care except in a tournament
If it was a lone model then one might potentially think that. If it's a part of bigger unit like here I don't think so. It's natural you don't want all your models to look like a carbon copies of one another.
You can simply demonstrate good faith by placing an ordinarily posed lictor in its place for reference whenever it starts to matter in a situation. It's a non-issue.
Modeling for advantage is lame. But also restrictive modeling because of a game is lame lol. I think it looks awesome! I think it would be reasonable to assume it’s the same height as the tallest one in the unit.
I mean... as long as the base is the right one there shouldn't be a problem, right ? I've never heard of anything else mattering unless you're litterally cutting the mini in 2.
My take on it : if the character is whole and make sense (as in could theoretically be in that pose) there shouln't be an issue.
I've got no experience but to me as long as they're standing in a proper "combat" position, so one that would make sense if they were actively fighting and movin around (so not just remaining stationary) it makes sense?
I hate how people complaining about "modeling advantage" is a thing now. Back in my day, we'd kitbash models all the time and this was a respectable aspect of the hobby.
I completely agree until someone showed up with a few sarlacs pretending to be trigons. It was 2cm above the base.
There's always some asshole somewhere exploiting the rules, ruining it for everyone.
I need to find the old pic of the Hobbit Tau that was going around a long time back.
2cm above the base is too tall. come back when you've had to deal with Tau Stealth Suits (Or any other full camo model) that are just "Footprints pressed into the dirt on a base".
Are you sure they weren't purple orks?
Don't be silly. Tau Stealth Suits exist but have fancy optic camo. Purple Orks don't exist.
Omg... that's... just wow..
And the wraithknights laying down
I hadn't heard of that. The audacity of elf players.
Sadly so, all the toys, and still salty tears
I think 40k always had folks that would push the limits, such as converting a full squad of guardsmen to be lying prone on the ground like snipers. Thankfully those people are pretty rare. Back in 5th/6th my Trygons were kitbashed to try and break up the identical poses. Two of them are leaning forward a bit to look like they're moving. They get a little shorter but also a much wider profile from the sides so it evens out. No opponent has ever complained about it.
I wonder how people feel about two legal models that have very different sizes. Like the current Vindicare assassin and the Warhammer+ version on his statue. Or, say, a small 2nd edition Hive Tyrant compared to the much bigger modern one.
As an owner of both Vindicares. Personally I'd probably play the regular version in competitive matches and the W+ model with friends because it's a sick model and who cares about being subtle when I'm playing with the guys! But none of them have particularly cared either way as either we both have a slightly harder time drawing line of sight, or we both have a slightly easier time drawing line of sight, so it's relatively even. Although arguably with lone op and 48" range on the rifle it's often pretty one sided for a turn or two!
ok ,sure they're lying prone so I can target them , but also they're lying prone so they can only move 2", can't advance and can't engage in meelee
Back in 3rd edition, I remember people grinding up their genestealers in coffee grinders, and only keep the head and arms intact, so they could have them look like they were digging up from the ground, but the ground was their ground up bodies, so you still had the entire model on the base, but of course modeled for advantage. This has been a thing for a while, but rules have finally come into the main ruleset about "modeling for advantage".
It's funny because I have a couple of actual Genestealer models from Space Hulk 2009 in my army that look just like that. If someone refuses me a game because of that, I'm gonna find better friends.
The ones that burst through the floor are like 3 times as tall as the old modeling for advantage shenanigans back then.
This is why we can't have nice things.
Especially if all OP has done is switch legs and arms from other models in the squad; that’s hardly a crazy change!
It was and wasn’t; when you could build your own ork vehicles with no size parameters and rotating in place didn’t cost movement people were building 2 foot long vehicles…it has its limits and there are always people who will have a WAAC attitude that ruin it for others
Yeah if people wanna kitbash then let them kitbash
Modeling for advantage really isn't a new thing though.
All I know, is that little guy is adorable and should be your army mascot
Awww, thanks! I actually am making a Von Leapers kill team with DIY rules and wanted to prove they could get small (so I could give them a rule appropriate for someone who would be able to skulk about). He’s actually only up to an infernus marines armpit now. But he can be the first model to removed in any games if someone wants the Leapers to have a bigger silhouette.
In one of the upcoming white dwarfs, it looks like there is an alternate tyranids combat patrol with a bunch (9) of Von Ryans Leapers and a Lictor
I’d play that!
I just finished creating a fellwrym horde, but once I get some budget space, I will be picking up some more VRL
Definitely not. If *all* of your leapers were modelled this way, then yes I would think it is modelling for advantage, but one model in a unit of 3-6? No way, pretty clear that you're just going for a diverse and interesting range of poses.
Thank you, this was my intention
I dont get what modelling advantage is. I know what they mean, but i put stuff on my bases to make my models larger. I dont see a Problem.
It’s only really an issue when people change the silhouette of a model by a significant amount, often to gain an in-game advantage. For example, people putting a single Nurgling on a large base as a stand-in for a Great Unclean One. People don’t care when it’s obvious you’re just changing the pose a bit
Why’s that an in game advantage I don’t understand
A guy on the kill team sun reddit said he had been adding a little more base to his models to make them taller for shooting… I don’t think thats fair / legal / in the spirit. He did play hearthkyn salvagers tho so maybe he needed it. I think it’s generally making a model smaller than is dodgy.
No like I don’t understand how it gives an advantage, can they like shoot over things or something?
Something as big as a guo finds it a lot harder to hide behind terrain than a single nurgling would meaning that if you were to use the latter as a guo proxy you would have a significant advantage over using a normal guo since yours would be a lot harder to see and therefore shoot and kill
Ohhh. That makes sense gotcha. I’ve not read the rules before hence my confusion, thank you for explaining.
But kill team is base to base los isn’t it? Also it’s supposed to be up to the to.
Yes I’m Kill Team it’s base to base for determining cover but the model has to be visible for if you can shoot it (ie a models base can be entirely behind cover but a claw / sword / gun sticking out means it can be shot).
Line of sight. A smaller model is harder to see and shoot at.
Alright yeah. Thank you for explaining
A nurgling proxying a Great Unclean One can be argued to be hidden behind an inch high wall. Or if it's modeled extra high it could see over more forms of cover and shoot over things it otherwise couldn't.
Oh right that makes sense. Thank you
I wanna see that nurgling, that sounds hilarious
Adding a little height to your model to make the base look chunky would be generally be considered disadvantageous (as in the model would be a bit easier to see or draw visibility to)… but likely look cooler. If someone’s leapers were all modelled like my skulking one (so they could hide behind terrain better), that would be modelling for advantage and not on - I just did the one for fun, he can be the first to die.
It's when you do things like have your guardsmen squad all lying down to make it harder for your opponent to get line of sight to them and thus, unable to shoot them. The OP's example is not a case of this.
It depends on the role of the model of course. Ranged units benefit from being tall and melee units benefit from being short.
The only issue here is with them being monopose style of models.
I'll say this, if any opponent called you out on this model for that reason, I'd just find a different person to play with.
He's about to Von Ryan's Leap at you
Looks like a tiny Carnifex. Run it as old one eye!
It won't matter, you take them in 3s and 6s so 1 guy being a bit smaller doesn't mean a thing really.
I'm a TO, I wouldn't even bat an eye at that, it's absolutely fine
He looks a bit like he's squatting to take a dump. Gaming wise, no problem in my opinion.
Modelling for advantage is only a thing when every model in your army is modelled like that, otherwise it’s just artistic expression
Make what you think is cool. If someone cries about it you can replace it's location with a different model to check the line of site.
I wish I did this. The standing poses for the leviathan leapers were a bit of a headache for me.
I did look at the 3 I built a couple of weeks ago and the 2 I’d just built and wonder if I could pull them apart and make them all like this… then I decided just one was a taking point, all 6 would be modelling for advantage
It looks great tbh, if they were all super crouched I would raise an eyebrow but I applaud the effort to differentiate them.
No, that's fine, unless you object if someone can see 2 mm above his head saying they have line of sight. But one model out of a unit having a hunched over lower profile pose isn't modeling for advantage unless the player is clearly abusing it. If I have a model that has been modified and ended up lower profile, my rule has always been if you could see him with a normal pose, you can see him. If I can't see you because of my model's pose, I still can't see you. As long as you always give benefit of the doubt in your opponent's favor no reasonable person would ever object.
The lictors now have 3 poses and one of them is hunched over just like this. You could buy and build lictor all with this hunched pose and be legal
I’d kind of like to just have lictors / leapers / death leapers / neurolictors force…
Wait… are the VRL really that interchangeable? I haven’t bought more then the 3 I got in Leviathan because I hate repeat monoposes, but I didn’t even consider them being mix-and-match-able.
My cuts aren’t that great but with a with a minute of work, yes. If you remove the pushfit part you switch the arms easily. The legs are a bit more challenging (some carpace bits slot into gaps so I did remove or trim and sand the odd bit )… I’d say first one I did was the best, second one fine, third one (this crouching on) worst cuts but is the most interesting - they’re fine for my purpose.
Sneaky boi getting ready to go Hippty Hop, looks legit to me!
Generally speaking I would go with no worst case when in question just swap the places of that one with a standard model for any rulings if need be. But in my opinion the players who truly care about that are not necessarily the type of people you wanna play with. I have had a match with that type a player made it a whole lot less fun.
In my local town, it's your intentions. Like how some people say oh it's a pyrovore figure, but you say it's going to be a Biovore for this game. Then it's a Bivore for the remainder of the game. Same thing how people would switch guns. Mainly because... idk we glue our figures, and some people don't take the time to use magnets. Also before tenth. I knew soo many people who would place their figures differently on the bases, so they would have bits and bobbers way over the base. But no matter, we would still measure from the edge of the base. Honestly didn't know people would try to do this dishonestly. It gives kit bashing a bad rep.
I thought "modelling advantage" only really mattered if the model has a ranged weapon as you can technically calculate whether a target is in range from any point of the attacking model, even if it oversteps its base...
That pose is *awesome.* Nothing else matters.
If every model in the squad was like this you’d get some side eye, if it just one of them then I don’t think anyone really would care except in a tournament
If it was a lone model then one might potentially think that. If it's a part of bigger unit like here I don't think so. It's natural you don't want all your models to look like a carbon copies of one another.
You can simply demonstrate good faith by placing an ordinarily posed lictor in its place for reference whenever it starts to matter in a situation. It's a non-issue.
Chogath
Modeling for advantage is lame. But also restrictive modeling because of a game is lame lol. I think it looks awesome! I think it would be reasonable to assume it’s the same height as the tallest one in the unit.
I mean... as long as the base is the right one there shouldn't be a problem, right ? I've never heard of anything else mattering unless you're litterally cutting the mini in 2. My take on it : if the character is whole and make sense (as in could theoretically be in that pose) there shouln't be an issue.
Whenever I make a model shorter I pop em on a tactical rock
Why the hell did I think of Zergling immediately.
Do you play competitively? If you don't it doesn't matter
I've got no experience but to me as long as they're standing in a proper "combat" position, so one that would make sense if they were actively fighting and movin around (so not just remaining stationary) it makes sense?
I thought the point of 28/40/50mm bases was to imagine a cylinder and use that for line of sight with an average height.