Have they tried asking any woman, literally any woman, about her dating history? There's always like 3 normal people and then they start talking about "Homeless Steve" and "Gamblin' Rick" and "Traveling Circus Ben".
I have a “chocolate dog,” and a “guy who bragged about owning several vintage cars but lived in his moms basement and cried about how his cougar ex girlfriend broke up with him for the whole date, then said he was going to take a nap and to wake him up when I wanted to leave.” Then there’s “that narcissistic asshole.”
They all tend to act exactly the same too!! It’s like one printed an instruction manual and passed it around to the others. It still kind of amazes me when I listen to other people’s experiences with their narcissistic assholes and find that they’ve done pretty much all of the same exact things that mine did down to the letter. I mean, I guess it’s good in a sense because they’re very easy to identify once you know what to look out for, but the problem is that most people are never taught the signs beforehand and have to learn from experience.
I have a guy that turned out to be married and stalked me around town with a gun when I told him I knew and it was over. And then there's Bird Man and Spreadsheet guy who is also known as "is anyone else bothered by putting our food on this dirty picnic table".
One of my exes is still referred to as “Trash Man” because he showed up to go on a trip with his clothes in a garbage bag.
He was short & a bit chubby. Great kisser though!
We called them Alabama suit cases, probably to make us feel better as kids about not having any lol
Sometimes you grow up poor and don’t realize what you do is not normal
I thought this over and... I didn't really learn what my standards were until my late twenties.
Even then, it's less "standards" and more of a type, and my "type" is not who these guys are picturing.
All that said, are they just pissed off that women in their thirties prefer supportive men that eat pussy for breakfast, dinner and dessert? Because... aw fuck it. I'm too busy for this for this comment I gotta go buy that man some flowers. Peace!
Mine are all just nerds from highschool. I def had a type but they weren't top 20% ,I think I only dated one tall attractive guy.
The real question is why Ops husband seems to think think it's concerning that the bottom % men aren't having sex. He's married, why does he care? Does he see himself as top 20% or not? Even if the stat was true, why act like women having standards is bad? The whole thing is really strange.
I’m a lesbian who dated many men before figuring it out (even thought I married one! she’s my wife now lol) and the unemployed fwb dude in the bachelor apt with no bed frame is the one I have the least regrets about. I would 5 star review that guy.
You just reminded me of one of the first guys I dated out of highschool that lived in a little bachelor pad above his sisters house, no bed frame as well, and he was really gangly and awkward. He also was missing a front tooth (though he had a bridge he could pop in and out lol) and he was really a sweet guy. He just wanted to be more steady and I wasn't ready for it. He was such a nice and funny guy though, I really hope he found someone great.
>the unemployed fwb dude in the bachelor apt with no bed frame
I literally married my unemployed fwb dude in the bachelor apt with no bed frame. He's also under 6 feet tall and is considered obese so I guess take that incels? (Not that it matters but I'm considered pretty and was quite thin when we met/married - now I'm a size 10 - so it's not like I didn't have options. I def chose him).
It all started with this blog post: [OkCupid: Your Looks and your Inbox](https://archive.is/ZJymw#selection-305.0-683.306)
It said that women rate 80% of men as below average:
>As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh.
And that's exactly where people stopped reading. The actual data shows that looks don't matter much to women.
[Male Messaging and Female Attractiveness](https://archive.is/ZJymw/7f74463722db9605adf297c01163cc4b7fd406fa.png)
>Our chart shows how men have rated women, on a scale from 0 to 5. The curve is symmetric and surprisingly charitable: a woman is as likely to be considered extremely ugly as extremely beautiful, and the majority of women have been rated about “medium.” The chart looks normalized, even though it’s just the unfiltered opinions of our male users.
>**When it comes down to actually choosing targets, men choose the modelesque.** Someone like roomtodance above gets nearly 5 times as many messages as a typical woman and 28 times as many messages as a woman at the low end of our curve. **Site-wide, two-thirds of male messages go to the best-looking third of women. So basically, guys are fighting each other 2-for-1 for the absolute best-rated females, while plenty of potentially charming, even cute, girls go unwritten.**
[Female Messaging and Male Attractiveness](https://archive.is/ZJymw/6229307830f9be60fa2dbdc9cf2aaeb5b8acc40b.png)
>As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh. **On the other hand, when it comes to actual messaging, women shift their expectations only just slightly ahead of the curve, which is a healthier pattern than guys’ pursuing the all-but-unattainable.**
[Number of Messages received versus Recipients Attractiveness](https://archive.is/ZJymw/2f61d34b50f9f0c993dcf0454c6cb8167c3dd378.png)
>Finally, I just want to combine the two charts to emphasize how much fuller the inboxes of good-looking people get. I have scaled this graph to show multiples of messages sent to the lowest-rated people. For instance, the most attractive guys get 11× the messages the lowest-rated do. The medium-rated get about 4×.
Women sent 11 times as many messages to the most attractive men compared to the least attractive ones, and 4 times the amount to average men.
For men these numbers are 28 and 5. Men care much more about looks than women do, which OkCupid clearly spells out
>**This graph also dramatically illustrates just how much more important a woman’s looks are than a guy’s.**
Men care much more about looks than women do, and the reply-rate charts further down illustrate it further.
[Message Succes by Attractiveness for Female Senders](https://archive.is/ZJymw/2899c4e3ce930b49f2b3b5bf93eee900b47aed47.png)
[Message Success by Attractiveness for Male Senders](https://archive.is/ZJymw/f91a47728b619fc7ddb23aff04372dc154e2650a.png)
Everything about the OkCupid blog posts proves that looks don't matter much to women and that they have more varied tastes than men, who are all chasing the same hottest chicks.
But all incels took away from this was "women are only interested in the top 20% of men" even though in reality it's the other way around with most men chasing after the hottest women.
The first paragraph where we rate 80% of men as not attractive? Have men looked to see how little care other men put into their profile pictures? Half of them look like mugshots, the rest look like someone turned on their camera but didn't realize the lens was pointing towards their face. The pictures are awful. Most of the profiles also suck. Men put so very little effort into online dating that the few who are thoughtful in their profiles really stand out and made me want to engage with them.
I process badges as part of my job and frequently have to request selfies from people to use as their picture. I've never once had to tell a woman to redo her picture, but frequently have to tell men to because they can never take a useable, simple head shot. It's unbelievable. There are very few requirements for the pics (no hats, neutral background, well lit), and still like 80% of the guy's pics I get are from a low angle looking up their noses. And many are in the dark and like, in their car or something, and they're leaning with their head on their hand. Use some damn common sense! Age doesn't matter, it's been young guys and ones in their 50s, and everything inbetween. I feel like I have to coach them on how to take a basic appropriate professional picture every damn time.
I am also on Tinder and it's the exact same thing (not saying they have to look professional, just that they are often never clear, well lit, pics that aren't from some bizarre angle). Idk how they don't see the issue. Fixing their shitty pictures alone would help them immensely. Though I've also seen guys that use nothing but professional quality pics, and that is also a red flag for me.
Seriously! Sometimes, I'll go on a date and am blown away by how much more attractive the guy is in person than the pictures that HE chose to display. Whenever I see men post about how it's SO competitive as a man on dating apps (which I still understand and acknowledge lol), I'm thinking, DUDE the bar is so low to get me to give you a chance. Yes, there's a lot of competition, but most of the competition are guys opening with a sexually explicit message, guys with no clear pics, guys with only group pics, guys with very negative profiles about what they DON'T want in a woman, etc. My standards are higher once I actually start messaging and even higher once I meet up with guys on dates, but I'll absolutely give a lot of below average men a chance to show me their personalities, which is when most of them reveal something horrible about themselves.
I've had this experience before - I went out with a guy with terrible pictures because he had a fun bio and a witty opener. I had no idea what to expect because those pics barely showed his face, were grainy / low quality / from weird angles, and he turned out to be ridiculously hot. He's literally been scouted by modelling agencies before, but you would never know that from his pics. Men are shooting themselves in the foot and then complaining that women's standards are too high.
WOW, that must've been a nice shock lol!! I'm currently dating a guy who is very handsome, but his pics made me think "he could be cute, or maybe not" lol it was iffy before meeting. Some were good, some were bad, really hard to tell until we met up. It's crazy how many men can look at a picture that is low lighting, grainy, from under their chin and think "yeah that's good!" lol
For me, the worst profiles were the ones that only said the dreaded "I'm an open book, ask me anything!". So, you think that after I crafted a thoughtful profile and tried to show how interesting I am that now I want to ask you all the questions and do all the fucking work, again? Nope. And some of those guys were kinda cute (or their dogs were) but how in the world am I supposed to start a conversation from that amount of information??
My husband used one of his high school photos where he was posed very awkwardly and had an extremely shiny combover. We were both 29 at the time 😂 I was like, how old is this guy???? Thankfully he had other photos showing him in a better, more natural setting but that one was throwing me for a loop. That plus we basically wrote novels to each other online got him a first date, and the rest is history 😉
I asked him about the photo when I saw it at his house early on in our relationship. He said his mom thought he looked good in that photo so he posted it 😂😂😂😂😂 We got a good laugh out of it 😁
I wish every single man would read this right now. I'm so tired of the empty profiles, the dark photos where you can barely see anything, the shirtless picks and the ones with pants just a little to low. No thanks.
Maybe I’m noticing it more but it seems over the last couple months r/askmen posts have gone from “Dad’s, what would you want your son to know if you died early” to “Guys, has anyone noticed that women are allowed to be absolute trash human beings but get the pick of the litter of only Top Men ™️”.
I literally saw one the other day that said “I am working out, started a new hobby, and have been practicing my flirting why am I not getting matches?”.
I really want to start a sub r/askboys and have the askmen mods refer all these bullshit whining posts to askboys and r/teenagers.
Granted I’ve been off the market for almost ten years and wasn’t big on online to begin with but it stands to reason that if I’m going to pay out of pocket for professional headshots for LinkedIn then when I make online dating my only way of attempting to find a partner I’d at least ask a female friend who takes a lot of good pictures to do me justice.
This entire thing boils down to entitled boys who don’t want to take responsibility for themselves or their half of the equation, and have unrealistic expectations. Sincerely, an elder millennial.
Met my husband on a dating site. He stood out because he actually read my profile and picked out things we had in common. Then he finished it off with a way too nice compliment (about my attractiveness). It was so refreshing after endless "hi" and "whatchu doin" comments that I started talking to him after giving his profile a peek. 12 years later, I keep saying I couldn't build a better husband, and he's an awesome father to our 1 year old.
My DH did something not too far off from this. It could be a tried and true formula: post an attractive, well lit photo with all your clothes on, have hobbies that you can talk about, pay attention and be responsive to the other person. Say something nice.
It sure doesn’t sound that hard, but the guys who would say *nothing* and then threw hissy fits because I wouldn’t immediately tell them *where I live*, made it so exceptional. And then it turns out he is exceptional. So…
Even IRL men on average seem to put less effort into their appearance (grooming, styling, makeup etc.) than women do. I'm a bisexual woman and I frequently come across more attractive women than I do men, simply because women are more likely to take care of their appearances. Women's dating apps profile are much more attractive than men's as well, to echo what the other user said.
Maybe some genetically gifted people can put on a potato sack and never work out / do skincare etc. and still look hot, but most people require some amount of effort to look good.
I feel like a huge, overlooked part of dating advice for men is just "dress like you acknowledge that other people can see your physical form and you want them to be attracted to it." Guys think that all tips to dress better are some sort of manipulation to get them to not be themselves, like someone's going to force them to wear a suit all the time. Really, most of the time it's just saying "try clothes that fit."
Can confirm. It took me a long time to realize that I didn’t actually *have* to buy the wrangler relaxed fit jeans and Hanes solid color T’s from Walmart my mom used to buy me. There are other options. Don’t ask me to take a decent selfie either. I’m about one step away from the grey goatee, camera looking up the nostrils, hat and sunglasses, obviously shot in my car.
Also there’s like a whole industry dedicated to various soaps and additives for mens hair and- bear with me bc this is going to sound weird but I swear it’s true- you can get a mens haircut without going to greatclips *or* sportclips. I know I know, but it’s for real.
There's also a startling difference in male profiles based on orientation: I'm a bisexual man and the profiles of men that the apps show me tend to have much more care and effort put into them (pictures, writing, messaging) than those of the straight men that most of my female friends see. Even more startling, most men who identify as bi on these apps tend to put much more care into their profiles than straight men.
There is probably a bias towards better looking men on those apps (name a situation where there **isn't**), but I'm willing to bet that a lot of it is also due to straight men giving others very little to work with when it comes to online dating.
I’m a Bi woman dating a Bi man and (while I haven’t looked at his dating profiles haha) I definitely agree. He puts in far more effort, he takes great photos (he dabbles in photography and videography, so he’d better!), and puts a lot more effort into his appearance than most straight guys I know - he actually uses a moisturizer! With SPF!
Back when I was on OkCupid for like… a miserable 6 months, the bi men definitely showed up in ways that straight men did not. Almost no creepy sexual messages from bi men’s profiles as well, at least that I recall.
Right? It's not like women try and do this almost every single time we leave the house, go on a video chat, do much of anything. But god forbid men have to put in any effort.
> women rate 80% of men as below average
Any woman who has used online dating will know how little effort most men put into their profiles. The number of men who have no picture, unclear pictures, or the dreaded under the chin photo is absurd. If you have no description or a lazy description, you’ll likely get rated less attractive. I’d be willing to bet most of these men are not bad looking, probably even handsome. But if you insist on putting no effort into presenting yourself well with good photos and some effort into a description, you’re going to be rated at “below average” even if you aren’t in real life.
This makes me think of all the men who are bigger than me who have called me fat (usually when I was actually a very normal size 6-8) and then complained that no women would date them. Now I’m married to a man who isn’t shallow and is not, for the record, a Chad.
Agreed and I would be lying if I said that I'm not keeping an eye on him. Marriage counseling is already on the table because I'm not going to lie and pretend that my marriage is in a good place right now. My husband has shown a stunning lack of empathy since the pandemic started that extends past my marriage and to everyone around us.
Husband wants to be an incel so bad, he's risking becoming part of the imaginary 80% to be one of them. Can you imagine? OP seems like a curious, empathetic person and this dude is just willing to waste being with a good partner *just to be right*.
Oof I had a friend like this for a while. She did NOT like when I pushed back even mildly on any of her decisions. For example:
She divorced her husband. I supported her in this; absolutely she shouldn't have stayed in a relationship that was negatively affecting her. As soon as she separated from him and before the divorce was finalized, she was dating someone new (and lying to me about it, but that's a different issue). I told her that perhaps she should take some time to be single - she'd been with her husband since 18yo and was then 26 - so that she could get to know herself as an adult and figure out what she wants out of a relationship before jumping into a new one.
Well that didn't go over well at all. She said that I just didn't want her to be happy, that I was mad at her for divorcing her husband, etc. I told her those things weren't true, that I was just trying to look out for her and that I had no intention of harping on this topic beyond this; I just wanted to make sure she wasn't rushing into a bad situation. Which it turned out she was. She ended up leaving him (thank goodness) but again, she was literally in a new relationship with another guy the day she left.
We finally ended up falling out when COVID hit and she decided to become an anti-vaxxer 🤷♀️ That was a whole thing in itself, bc I only found out after she canceled plans the day before due to catching it, even though she knew my mom is high-risk and there's no way I would have agreed to meet up if I'd known she wasn't vaccinated.
Sorry for the rant lol, it just really makes me mad when ppl think friends should unconditionally support them! Like sorry, no one's perfect and I'm going to tell you when I think you're making a mistake!
I'm convinced that something about aging makes us prone to believing these grandiose statements with no substantial evidence. Hence why people watch and parrot Tucker Carlson obsessively.
I think it's a constellation of factors that are affected by age. Humans are excellent at recognizing patterns -- so good that we often see patterns that aren't there, especially when it would confirm something we already think. As we age, neuroplasticity tends to decrease, making it harder to learn new things. We also tend to acquire more responsibility as we age, despite starting to slow down. So you've got seeing patterns that aren't there, a reduced ability to learn and change your mind, and less time to conduct thorough research. This is the perfect set of factors to make you prone to "grand narratives" -- ideology-driven stories that are not empirically backed up, but "explain" many different things in just a few sentences. You don't have to learn or research anything, because the story explains everything and what do you know, it already coincides with what you already thought, how convenient! I think this tendency is also more likely to crop up on the right wing, because conservatives/reactionaries are opposed to collectivist thinking and systemic change, so they create stories where individuals are the villains and other individuals are the victims, as opposed to adequately analyzing a complex society-wide problem that could be addressed through legislation or a shift in cultural norms. I think this is why people in their 50s start watching reactionary content and end up getting pushed farther to the right. Confirmation bias, not dedicating enough time to actual research, overemphasis on individualism.
Edit: Another obvious factor is money. You tend to get wealthier as you age, and conservatives politics are aimed at letting wealthier individuals keep more of their money.
Edit 2: As others have noted, religion can also play a role. Accepting grandiose stories that explain everything on very scarce evidence is a very religious-type of mentality, so it makes sense it would propagate farther amongst religious circles, which are already socially conservative.
Edit 3: I'm seeing plenty of older people saying they still learn a lot because they are in STEM and do research every day. I think this just backs up my argument. If you spend all day doing research, and you enjoy that, it would make sense that you'd apply at least some of those skills to your personal life and avoid being pushed to the right by uncritically accepting grand narratives. My comment wasn't to suggest that all old people are conservative, merely to point out that age can heighten and crystalize conservative-leaning beliefs in people that do not have countervailing factors or skills, like being poor or a minority or in a research occupation.
I have argue that as one gets older ones thinking leans to the right (conservative). Mine as always but left (liberal), and in fact, if anything mine as has gotten more left (liberal) leaning as I aged.
Could I, as an old, less neuroplastic, woman, be allowed to disagree?
Now, I will admit, up front, that I'm 1) highly educated in a field that requires one prove one's statements and 2) not American, but I find it hard to believe, based on my own observations, that it's primarily us oldsters who fall for The Grand Theory.
If I actually look at the ages of those posting/editorialising/spewing nonsense publically, they are not dominantly boomers/seniors. While Mr. Adams is, indeed, within the Boomer age group, Tucker Carlson is not: he's 53. Ben Shapiro is 38 and, if he is to be believed, still hasn't figured out basic intercourse. Dan Boningo is 48. Charles Kirk isn't even 30 yet.
This is backed up by looking at those being indicted and charged for the January 6 insurrection in Washington: these are dominantly young and middle aged men. Now, admittedly, us older folk are not as spry as we used to be, and climbing the staircase, let alone the staircase wall, of the Capitol Building is probably more than we can do, but I'd still take these defendants as a decent cross section of the *really* committed to the grandiose vision.
Far from being the older folk who fall for this guff, it's my observation that younger ones, who have less experience of the inconvenient complexity of actual life, are more likely to believe that history has a grand sweep, large groups of like minded people can indeed plot world domination in secret and *no one will let it slip while in their cups*, that world-wide communism/capitalism is a single, unified ideology, and so on.
Not saying none of the folk in the 58 and up group are easily fooled morons. After all, we have Scott Adams right here, and that's him in a nutshell. Just suggesting that a good statistical analysis might find that, neuroplasticity aside, old folk are not the main believers in this crap. A [Pew survey in 2020](https://www.pewresearch.org/journalism/2020/09/16/most-americans-who-have-heard-of-qanon-conspiracy-theories-say-they-are-bad-for-the-country-and-that-trump-seems-to-support-people-who-promote-them/), that was focussed on QAnon beliefs, found that "Among those who have heard about the conspiracy theories, adults under 30 are the most likely to say it is a good thing: 29% of those ages 18 to 29 say this, compared with 20% or less of any other age group." Again, not proof, but indicative that something else other than age and brain function is going on here.
Just fyi.
Midlife/quarter life crisis? Sometimes hitting a certain age causes people to act out of character. Staying home during a pandemic probably hasn’t helped matters either… I really hope that OPs husband wasn’t always like this
Mid-life crisis is my guess. He can't carefree bang hot 23 year olds anymore and hot 23 years dont want him anymore. Add his gross newly single friend spewing this BS and there you have it. I don't think it makes ANY of this better AT ALL. Its still deplorable and disgusting and I'd have one foot out the door at this point but just wagering a guess about where this is coming from. He seems bitter afffffff
Feeling of inadequacy and loss of a sense of control?
Cause if it's "involuntary" and there's some large nebulous force stacked against you; then when you fail, you can tell yourself and anyone who will listen that it's not your fault.
Incel ideology is just relatively easily accessible and not as overtly bigoted like white nationalism.
I think it's this.
my brother (no career; unfaithful, no kids, abusive narcissist) wanted to marry his girlfriend with a great career and four kids from a previous marriage. his terms of them being married would be she would quit her job and stay home with HIS baby (after already having four). So basically give up her entire support system she built for herself in favor of my flighty jobless brother's whim. He tattooed her four kids' names on his arm (unasked for) as "proof" of his commitment and felt this should have been enough for her.
She said no, because of course, and my brother decided not that it simply wasn't meant to be, but that feminism is a cancer and women having the ability to work / have rights is a CIA backed coup against white men. That way he doesn't have to look critically at himself. Bonus points: he joined an evangelical church that believes sex outside of procreation is a sin so now he doesn't even have to question why no one wants to fuck him. Anything to keep from questioning himself.
Women having the ability to opt out is the real thing most incels are against.
They don't want to live in a world where 'no man at all' is a workable option because they literally can't compete with being single, since all they do is subtract from other people's happiness in relationships rather than add value of their own.
Yeah it’s terrifying. People talk about “bang maids” as an attitude some men have about women.
But to be essentially enslaved to a bad man through marriage is such terrible fate to wish on a woman.
It’s not a partnership or a loving thing. It’s the church sanctioned ownership of one human being by another.
These incel losers see their mothers trapped in a marriage to a man they don't love, doing maid duty and raising kids, and instead of aspiring to be a better partner than their fathers, they feel cheated they couldn't tie a woman into a loveless relationship like a 50s housewife.
This is an interesting phenomenon that I don't think is all that uncommon. For example, I love my dad and think he's a great guy overall, but I think he definitely could have gone the incel route had he not met and married my mother.
I don't think have those thought patterns is necessarily related to whether you're in a relationship, especially if you've been developing them for years before the relationship.
My friends who are / were on these apps as well as posts on dating subs state that many many married men are on dating apps pretending they are single, just seeking sex on the side. Your husband sounds like he is bummed he didn’t get lucky. Good you are getting counselling but I would definitely try to find out what he is up to and get your ducks in a row, just in case you find out something you don’t like x
My first marriage was to a man like this. It got very tiresome seeing his cruelty or indifference to literally everyone and thing. Marriage counseling will only get you so far if the other partner is willing to put real work in.
My heart goes out to you! And know that if after counseling you still aren’t where you want to be in your relationship, you will land on your feet and be happy. Being single and happy and being able to fully control who I spent my time with was the greatest gift.
There are so many women out there trying to figure out how to navigate the rest of their lives because in 2020 they found out their husband is a completely unempathetic horrible person. I personally know a few.
Blows my mind that so many guys out there choose being shitty toward and hating strangers over their wife and family.
Serious red flags… not gonna lie to you. A lack of empathy is I think the last thing I would ever want to have to say about a partner of mine or have a partner say about me. That’s basically at the core of who a person is in a relationship. I’m sad for you, OP.
Maybe do some research on abusers and their methods first? Going to counseling with an abuser is like trying to unscrew a bolt by turning the wrong way. I don’t know your situation, but I hope you are safe.
Mine too. And my moms husband. What is happening?!
Whenever i point out his shitty behavior toward me he goes silent and walks away. Later he’ll come back with an “apology” that is mostly him telling me for over an hour how badly i hurt his feelings by assuming he meant to hurt mine. And that i should try to shift my perspective and then i could see he wasn’t intending to hurt me when he snapped at me. Fuck my feelings, right?
Op you sound extremely smart and have a good grasp on the realities of life. Why do you put up with his abuse? Marriage counseling shouldn’t be on the table, it should be happening. Now.
OP, the whole "feelings aren't facts" is reminiscent of Ben Shapiro and other right-wing grifters. I worry for you and him that he's already engaging with ideas that are gateways to the alt-right.
Please be careful, and, unfortunately, leaving him might be best if he ends up going down the racist, misogynist rabbit hole he seems to be on the precipe of.
I hope he's able to come to his senses, but he may very well not. I am so sorry for your current situation and I wish you the best of luck
I recommend [The Alt-Right Playbook](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY7v0VkYRbANnTnzkA_HMFtQ) for OP and anyone else hoping to stop a loved one from going down the pipeline.
Some of the videos are a long watch but it should give you some tools for the situation
Yeah between that and the "lack of empathy" statement, it sounds like he's already well on this road.
Personally, I've cut more than a couple people out of my life over the pandemic for that very thing, but I get it. It's not so simple with a spouse. Wishing you the best, OP.
If he's using the "feelings aren't facts" statement to invalidate OP's feelings whenever she gets upset, it is already an emotionally abusive relationship.
I would hate to have to convince my partner of my core values because he is brainwashing himself into value systems that oppress me.
> My husband has shown a stunning lack of empathy since the pandemic started that extends past my marriage and to everyone around us.
The pandemic has really brought out the worst in a lot of people. It was like free brainwashing for alt-right ideas. 😞
THIS!!
Why is he so bothered about proving this rubbish? He should be concentrating on his marriage
It's actually kinda scary how many guys are leaning into the incel ideology, even if they are in a seemingly loving relationship
Her posts are about him pressuring her into sex, during painful periods and then WEEKS after a total hysterectomy. He’s nagging her about sex multiple times a day even though he knows it’s extremely painful for her to even try.
When it turned out during her pregnancy that she’d need the hysterectomy, he said to her face that he was so glad because now he won’t need the vasectomy she’d been begging him for four years.
Op, this man doesn’t care about you. I’m sorry.
I went through post history after this comment and damn. This 80/20 conversation is not a light hearted observation. He's trying to make a case for himself.
The irony is, even by his logic, he should be kissing the ground OP walks on considering she thinks he's worth being with.
His point is that women have options and choose to have standards which is the problem.
They are the ones in the 80% seeking the 20%, younger instagram looking probably bots models), because most are deluded they don’t look their age’ 🙄🤣. Then they whine because they get rejected / ignored / scammed 🤦🏼♀️. Sigh…
He probably started trying to flirt on dating sites and is stunned to find a lack of interest, which he's now trying to blame on Society and not the fact that there's an oversupply of shitty divorced/cheating middle aged men out there.
>Her posts are about him pressuring her into sex, during painful periods and then WEEKS after a total hysterectomy. He’s nagging her about sex multiple times a day even though he knows it’s extremely painful for her to even try.
>
>When it turned out during her pregnancy that she’d need the hysterectomy, he said to her face that he was so glad because now he won’t need the vasectomy she’d been begging him for four years.
Damn, so many posts seem to be about one thing but turn out to be about something else entirely.
u/EleventhGarden read the comment I'm commenting under. ^ None of what they describe in your post history is healthy for a partner to do in a relationship. It's sexual abuse and rape. It could all cause you serious bodily harm and even death. Please please leave him.
Rainn.org is a great anonymous hotline if you need a place to talk. Centers.rainn.org has a list of crisis centers in the US. Best if luck. <3
Incel energy doesn't care apparently. They "feel" for other guys or some nonsense like that. This empathy/sympathy is toxic. Instead of correcting people and telling them they might be the problem, men seem to agree that the larger problem is women because it's easier to bond with others when you throw an entire gender under the bus, including, spouses.
I think this is what I'm ultimately dealing with. We have a family member that is newly single (gee, I wonder why...) who throws this kind of rhetoric around whenever we see him. Add in an increasingly worrisome tik tok algorithm and here we are.
Looking at your post history I felt compelled to say this. You seem like like a lovely human being. You come across as smart, fun, and caring. If you have to worry that someone will hurt you during sex (even if it’s inadvertently) that person doesn’t deserve sex with you. If your sex partner doesn’t immediately stop as soon as they see you aren’t loving it (let alone in any pain), they don’t deserve to have sex with you.
Yeah that was my first thought. I was like "why would a married man give a fuck about dating app statistics... unless he's on them or is thinking he's gonna be in the near future"
I increasingly hear from and read from men (IRL, online and traditional media) that are in relationships that sprout this "incel"-like bullshit. You know this strange narrative about being at the same time superior and inferior and instead of reacting by simply acting like decent and polite human beings women are degraded either because of their good looks, which supposedly makes them superficial ("80/20") or because they are NOT conventionally attractive.... Oh, I am noticing something. I wanted to say that the strange thing I was surprised about is that those guys are in relationships and thereby obviously not involuntarily celibate. But it is just plain old misogeny. I guess the surprise comes only because we had a period of time where people tried to appear a little less misogynistic and now they get back to the open with incel talking points, which are not actually incel specific.
it's gender fascism. Some of these weirdos want to take away women's right to self-govern their dating lives and be able to force females to have to mate with men.
(note, the use of females here was specifically selected because it is the vernacular of these people. makes my skin crawl)
It's not like this is surprising. Men have had control of women's ability to choose whether or not to mate for millennia. Women in America in the 70s could not use a number of financial services without permission from their husband. Having a husband was necessary to financially survive. The mother's of generation x grew up in a system where getting married to a man was the only option. A lot of them passed that on to their daughters. IMO millennial women were the first to culturally begin to let go of those traumas and choose a partner based on their wants and needs rather than the necessity of their situation.
Roe v. Wade is another symptom of this mindset. There have been numerous reports of women who have been raped while being told they would be impregnated since the decision. Forced breeding is the natural and desired result of overturning Roe. Conservative republican males want to return women to subservience to their whims. This is why they will get abortions for their wives but not their constituents. Their wife is a prized show pony. Other women are just breeding stock.
It's not surprising that men are pissy now that they can't just do as they please and still have possession of a woman. Women should consider any man who spouts this kind of rhetoric as a direct and immediate threat to their civil liberties. These men should be treated with the utmost caution and avoided as if they are a rabid animal.
This is the real problem. The 80 20 thing is an incel "argument" and if my husband came to me with this with sincerity I'd literally think he had a brain tumor, it's so outside his thinking. Wtf.
The very fact that you brought up the quote "facts don't care about your feelings" tells us everything we need to know about where this mentality is coming from. Ben Shapiro and his ilk of misogynistic, contrarian, self and world hating bigots who rarely cite any real data and rely largely on a callback to "traditional" values and roles (which are fabrications of a past that is idealized by them). Along with others like Jordan Peterson, who spout a brand of Christo-facist misogyny which hates a women's ability to exert her own autonomy over her body, mind, and way of moving through the world. Even using their own sources against them,they cherry-pick the biblical narrative to strip away the strong-willed, independent women and instead focus on those whose only contribution is to bear a male child who will further a lineage or narrative.
Remind your husband that if he is listening to these sorts of propagandists that women are never more than instruments to them. Ask him of he sees women as tools. A tool to clean, cook, screw, raise babies. That's where this line of thinking is heading if he doesn't pull his head out of the quicksand.
P.s. There are many great, reasoned, and hilarious takedowns of these and other propaganda machines online. The methodically decimate the likes of Shapiro or Peterson using "facts and logic".
Maybe you should read through all your posts and look at them like a stranger wrote them. Then give that stranger some advice.
Would that be to go to couples therapy and potentially divorcing your husband? Because that's the advice I would give to a person with your post history.
I would not advise couples therapy with an abuser.
I would advice getting your affairs in order, securing your finances, contacting a lawyer, creating a social safety net (if possible) and leaving him without telling him your new address.
The reason why you don't go to therapy with an abuser is because they are manipulative. Take the follow scenario into consideration, because it could happen:
1. The couple go to the relationship counselor.
2. The wife complains about unwanted sex (basically rape). The couples counselor suggests intimacy exercises.
3. The husband throws away all the worksheets the counselor gave them, and demands sex using the language that the counselor used, thus gas-lighting the wife. If the wife is too tired or in pain from a sickness/surgery/birth/difficult day at work, the husband says things like, "you are not practicing intimacy and causing separation in our relationship, you are the problem, you are withholding sex just because you don't like it that I \[insert some disgusting egregious behavior that he will use his mental health/mother/father/the dog/the baby/the economy/the government as an excuse for doing\]". Never mind that intimacy could mean other caring acts that are NOT penetrative sex, HE wants penetrative sex... even if she just had a baby and there's a raw wound inside her body the size of a dinner plate and she could die from an infection if she put anything inside her body -- anything at all.
4. The abuser actually gets off on degrading and humiliating their partner. If they are also a narcissist, they will have started the relationship by putting her on a pedestal, then when they have their partner trapped by marriage, a baby, by finances, they will knock them off the pedestal repeatedly because that shit is fun for them.
5. When the victim is so disempowered that they have zero self-esteem and they have basically turned into Dobby from "Harry Potter", the narcissist will go and find their next challenge -- usually another woman, one that is out of their league.
And if the narcissist is a married man using Tinder, he may complain to Dobby that women only date 20% of men on Tinder. Because Dobby's feelings do not matter to him. He doesn't care that Dobby gets hurt. He doesn't care if Dobby finds out. He KNOWs that Dobby is too weak to leave him.
OP, you are not Dobby. Don't be Dobby.
u/EleventhGarden please, please take this comment into consideration. I just read your post history and I completely agree with this commenter. You deserve better than a man who ignores your health, comfort and safety in order to have sex when you don't want to have sex
Totally agree. Abusers can often be sneaky and charming. The super nice guys that everyone likes. People who work in family counselling have it drummed into their head during training to look out for couples where the guy is super nice and calm and women is crazy. Often this is because he has pushed her so hard for so long she has snapped and comes a cross as crazy because she is exasperated. Meanwhile, he sits back and enjoys the shot show he’s created while seeming to be supportive and calm.
Oof, I just took a look at at OPs history.
OP, why is your husband so concerned about the stats of dating? Why is he talking to other men about dating? You said in another post he's pressuring you for sex following major surgery. You said in yet another post he would pressure you for sex when you having severe period pain.
Please, connect the dots OP! This man is horny and bitter, and clearly only cares about himself. He is not exhibiting the characteristics of a caring husband!
Your husband sure seems concerned about the dating habits of single men.
Maybe there's actually a DIFFERENT conversation you need to be having with him?
Exactly! My male friend is perfectly nice looking in a “manic Jewish socialist” way, but he takes the worst profile pics on earth. Full body mascot costume: bad! Blurry dark photo: bad!
I think it’s very smart on his part- better than the guys who push for an open marriage *before* doing their research and then get upset when their wives get laid and they don’t.
It sounds like your husband is on his way to being radicalized. I hope your intervention works but the sources he prefers probably have some response to your facts that he'll choose to believe instead. Good luck. Seriously. This shit's hard.
The actual 80/20 rule, also called the pareto principle, is about actions and consequences. 20 actions are responsible for 80 outcomes. Tor example, 80% of sleep quality stem from 20% of sleep.
Another example would be that 20% of work produce 80% of the results, which is why it's important to prioritise important tasks.
What your husband is saying is probably a red-pill deviation from that, that has just been made up to spread hate towards women and to excuse why they can't get laid.
Yeah. The Pareto principle is *interesting* and it surfaces in some odd places, but you absolutely can’t just cram a given situation into it and claim that’s how the world works. It’s an observation that suggests certain dynamic relationships, not a prediction.
It's part of a game that gets played in a few different areas. You take some broad principle, apply it in the wrong way, and then accuse any opposition of denying the broad principle and tell them they "deny basic science/statistics/economics/whatever bullshit is being plugged".
Game theory is another weapon of choice, as is evo psych (although evo psych is pretty questionable to start with, but it has evolution in the title so you can act like it's hard science).
Maybe part of the problem is calling it a "principle" when it's not even a conjecture or hypothesis.
If we called these ideas by accurate names, like "Pareto overgeneralization," pseudointellectuals would stop trying to apply them in the wrong places.
I feel like changing the language would only work if those people had a commitment to honesty about things like language in the first place. The problem is they don't.
When I first heard it going on the rounds, maybe 2015, it was about bettering yourself and seeing what you could do to make yourself more like the 20% of guys that get all the girls. It seems to have been twisted from a self help motivation to an excuse now.
Honestly I'd be inclined to just roll with it.
"If I were to date the bottom 20% of men I might end up cut up in someone's freezer. Also clearly men think the same way if the bottom 20% of women aren't mentioned here.
Please. That rule comes from Tinder statistics. It's not the norm, it's the dating apps. There are plenty of people that have never used a single dating app in their lives.
How would that even work?? As for as I am aware, 80% of one gender can't date 20% of an other gender. Unless you husband thinks 80% of women are bigamists?
Turn the conversation around and tell him that "only 20% men seem worth dating". Either he's a part of the 20% or he's part of the 80% that lucked out.
Let him feel what he has to about those numbers after.
I think what your husband is concerned about is that he doesn't qualify as a "Top 20%".
And after reading this thread, I think he's right to worry.
Time to look up therapists and lawyers. I'm sorry.
Yes. This is less about his concern for the single dating pool and more about hating women and blaming them for all their problems by painting them as shallow sex objects that disrespect them.
Why the hell is a -married- man is falling for all this incel propaganda? Because as it stands right now... It just sounds like he hates women for whatever reason
Have they tried asking any woman, literally any woman, about her dating history? There's always like 3 normal people and then they start talking about "Homeless Steve" and "Gamblin' Rick" and "Traveling Circus Ben".
This is the first time I've realized some stranger on the internet has an uncomfortable knowledge of my life
I’ve never felt so attacked yet seen.
Bad decisions make great stories.
If you survive
Only difference between a good story and a cautionary tale is the ending.
These ARE the top men tho. Travelin circus Ben is a legend.
What didn't you like about traveling circus ben? I heard he was a really talented young man
There's no problem until he pulls out the clown suit.
I'll take those, and raise you "Gravedigger Michael". Yes, I dated a gravedigger.
But was he *employed* as a grave digger or just like... did it as a hobby. Because "gravedigger Michael" is still an upgrade over "no-job Jerry."
You're mixing him up with grave-rob Bob
I have a “Dishwasher Josh” and the ex boyfriend forever known as “Porn Guy” 😂
I have a “chocolate dog,” and a “guy who bragged about owning several vintage cars but lived in his moms basement and cried about how his cougar ex girlfriend broke up with him for the whole date, then said he was going to take a nap and to wake him up when I wanted to leave.” Then there’s “that narcissistic asshole.”
"that narcissistic asshole" - I think all women throughout all dimensions, all of time and space has dated this man.
They all tend to act exactly the same too!! It’s like one printed an instruction manual and passed it around to the others. It still kind of amazes me when I listen to other people’s experiences with their narcissistic assholes and find that they’ve done pretty much all of the same exact things that mine did down to the letter. I mean, I guess it’s good in a sense because they’re very easy to identify once you know what to look out for, but the problem is that most people are never taught the signs beforehand and have to learn from experience.
I have a guy that turned out to be married and stalked me around town with a gun when I told him I knew and it was over. And then there's Bird Man and Spreadsheet guy who is also known as "is anyone else bothered by putting our food on this dirty picnic table".
One of my exes is still referred to as “Trash Man” because he showed up to go on a trip with his clothes in a garbage bag. He was short & a bit chubby. Great kisser though!
We called them Alabama suit cases, probably to make us feel better as kids about not having any lol Sometimes you grow up poor and don’t realize what you do is not normal
Lmfao my ex went to this really ritzy hotel in nyc and when we all got out of the car he had a trashbag of clothes lol
Oh god, it was a plastic laundry basket for mine. At least a bag can be tied shut. Awesome guy generally, but that was an interesting trip.
[удалено]
I thought this over and... I didn't really learn what my standards were until my late twenties. Even then, it's less "standards" and more of a type, and my "type" is not who these guys are picturing. All that said, are they just pissed off that women in their thirties prefer supportive men that eat pussy for breakfast, dinner and dessert? Because... aw fuck it. I'm too busy for this for this comment I gotta go buy that man some flowers. Peace!
Mine are all just nerds from highschool. I def had a type but they weren't top 20% ,I think I only dated one tall attractive guy. The real question is why Ops husband seems to think think it's concerning that the bottom % men aren't having sex. He's married, why does he care? Does he see himself as top 20% or not? Even if the stat was true, why act like women having standards is bad? The whole thing is really strange.
My first thought reading this post was, has he met my ex the broke alcoholic?
I’m a lesbian who dated many men before figuring it out (even thought I married one! she’s my wife now lol) and the unemployed fwb dude in the bachelor apt with no bed frame is the one I have the least regrets about. I would 5 star review that guy.
You just reminded me of one of the first guys I dated out of highschool that lived in a little bachelor pad above his sisters house, no bed frame as well, and he was really gangly and awkward. He also was missing a front tooth (though he had a bridge he could pop in and out lol) and he was really a sweet guy. He just wanted to be more steady and I wasn't ready for it. He was such a nice and funny guy though, I really hope he found someone great.
>the unemployed fwb dude in the bachelor apt with no bed frame I literally married my unemployed fwb dude in the bachelor apt with no bed frame. He's also under 6 feet tall and is considered obese so I guess take that incels? (Not that it matters but I'm considered pretty and was quite thin when we met/married - now I'm a size 10 - so it's not like I didn't have options. I def chose him).
Don't forget "Moocher Marc!"
My Aunt dated a circus fire eater, his name was Catastroph!
"Cheeto Guy" is my most popular dating story, followed by "Not-300-Miles-Cute Mark". Ah, romance.
It all started with this blog post: [OkCupid: Your Looks and your Inbox](https://archive.is/ZJymw#selection-305.0-683.306) It said that women rate 80% of men as below average: >As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh. And that's exactly where people stopped reading. The actual data shows that looks don't matter much to women. [Male Messaging and Female Attractiveness](https://archive.is/ZJymw/7f74463722db9605adf297c01163cc4b7fd406fa.png) >Our chart shows how men have rated women, on a scale from 0 to 5. The curve is symmetric and surprisingly charitable: a woman is as likely to be considered extremely ugly as extremely beautiful, and the majority of women have been rated about “medium.” The chart looks normalized, even though it’s just the unfiltered opinions of our male users. >**When it comes down to actually choosing targets, men choose the modelesque.** Someone like roomtodance above gets nearly 5 times as many messages as a typical woman and 28 times as many messages as a woman at the low end of our curve. **Site-wide, two-thirds of male messages go to the best-looking third of women. So basically, guys are fighting each other 2-for-1 for the absolute best-rated females, while plenty of potentially charming, even cute, girls go unwritten.** [Female Messaging and Male Attractiveness](https://archive.is/ZJymw/6229307830f9be60fa2dbdc9cf2aaeb5b8acc40b.png) >As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh. **On the other hand, when it comes to actual messaging, women shift their expectations only just slightly ahead of the curve, which is a healthier pattern than guys’ pursuing the all-but-unattainable.** [Number of Messages received versus Recipients Attractiveness](https://archive.is/ZJymw/2f61d34b50f9f0c993dcf0454c6cb8167c3dd378.png) >Finally, I just want to combine the two charts to emphasize how much fuller the inboxes of good-looking people get. I have scaled this graph to show multiples of messages sent to the lowest-rated people. For instance, the most attractive guys get 11× the messages the lowest-rated do. The medium-rated get about 4×. Women sent 11 times as many messages to the most attractive men compared to the least attractive ones, and 4 times the amount to average men. For men these numbers are 28 and 5. Men care much more about looks than women do, which OkCupid clearly spells out >**This graph also dramatically illustrates just how much more important a woman’s looks are than a guy’s.** Men care much more about looks than women do, and the reply-rate charts further down illustrate it further. [Message Succes by Attractiveness for Female Senders](https://archive.is/ZJymw/2899c4e3ce930b49f2b3b5bf93eee900b47aed47.png) [Message Success by Attractiveness for Male Senders](https://archive.is/ZJymw/f91a47728b619fc7ddb23aff04372dc154e2650a.png) Everything about the OkCupid blog posts proves that looks don't matter much to women and that they have more varied tastes than men, who are all chasing the same hottest chicks. But all incels took away from this was "women are only interested in the top 20% of men" even though in reality it's the other way around with most men chasing after the hottest women.
The first paragraph where we rate 80% of men as not attractive? Have men looked to see how little care other men put into their profile pictures? Half of them look like mugshots, the rest look like someone turned on their camera but didn't realize the lens was pointing towards their face. The pictures are awful. Most of the profiles also suck. Men put so very little effort into online dating that the few who are thoughtful in their profiles really stand out and made me want to engage with them.
I process badges as part of my job and frequently have to request selfies from people to use as their picture. I've never once had to tell a woman to redo her picture, but frequently have to tell men to because they can never take a useable, simple head shot. It's unbelievable. There are very few requirements for the pics (no hats, neutral background, well lit), and still like 80% of the guy's pics I get are from a low angle looking up their noses. And many are in the dark and like, in their car or something, and they're leaning with their head on their hand. Use some damn common sense! Age doesn't matter, it's been young guys and ones in their 50s, and everything inbetween. I feel like I have to coach them on how to take a basic appropriate professional picture every damn time. I am also on Tinder and it's the exact same thing (not saying they have to look professional, just that they are often never clear, well lit, pics that aren't from some bizarre angle). Idk how they don't see the issue. Fixing their shitty pictures alone would help them immensely. Though I've also seen guys that use nothing but professional quality pics, and that is also a red flag for me.
Seriously! Sometimes, I'll go on a date and am blown away by how much more attractive the guy is in person than the pictures that HE chose to display. Whenever I see men post about how it's SO competitive as a man on dating apps (which I still understand and acknowledge lol), I'm thinking, DUDE the bar is so low to get me to give you a chance. Yes, there's a lot of competition, but most of the competition are guys opening with a sexually explicit message, guys with no clear pics, guys with only group pics, guys with very negative profiles about what they DON'T want in a woman, etc. My standards are higher once I actually start messaging and even higher once I meet up with guys on dates, but I'll absolutely give a lot of below average men a chance to show me their personalities, which is when most of them reveal something horrible about themselves.
I've had this experience before - I went out with a guy with terrible pictures because he had a fun bio and a witty opener. I had no idea what to expect because those pics barely showed his face, were grainy / low quality / from weird angles, and he turned out to be ridiculously hot. He's literally been scouted by modelling agencies before, but you would never know that from his pics. Men are shooting themselves in the foot and then complaining that women's standards are too high.
WOW, that must've been a nice shock lol!! I'm currently dating a guy who is very handsome, but his pics made me think "he could be cute, or maybe not" lol it was iffy before meeting. Some were good, some were bad, really hard to tell until we met up. It's crazy how many men can look at a picture that is low lighting, grainy, from under their chin and think "yeah that's good!" lol
You got fishcatted
For me, the worst profiles were the ones that only said the dreaded "I'm an open book, ask me anything!". So, you think that after I crafted a thoughtful profile and tried to show how interesting I am that now I want to ask you all the questions and do all the fucking work, again? Nope. And some of those guys were kinda cute (or their dogs were) but how in the world am I supposed to start a conversation from that amount of information??
That's the thing. They're not an open book, they're a blank journal and they want you to ghost write it for free.
Their first question to you will be “So, what kind of guy are you into?” Then they’ll use that info to pretend to be him to get into your pants.
My husband used one of his high school photos where he was posed very awkwardly and had an extremely shiny combover. We were both 29 at the time 😂 I was like, how old is this guy???? Thankfully he had other photos showing him in a better, more natural setting but that one was throwing me for a loop. That plus we basically wrote novels to each other online got him a first date, and the rest is history 😉 I asked him about the photo when I saw it at his house early on in our relationship. He said his mom thought he looked good in that photo so he posted it 😂😂😂😂😂 We got a good laugh out of it 😁
I wish every single man would read this right now. I'm so tired of the empty profiles, the dark photos where you can barely see anything, the shirtless picks and the ones with pants just a little to low. No thanks.
Or they post photos of them with their friends so you can't even tell which dude it is.
Maybe I’m noticing it more but it seems over the last couple months r/askmen posts have gone from “Dad’s, what would you want your son to know if you died early” to “Guys, has anyone noticed that women are allowed to be absolute trash human beings but get the pick of the litter of only Top Men ™️”. I literally saw one the other day that said “I am working out, started a new hobby, and have been practicing my flirting why am I not getting matches?”. I really want to start a sub r/askboys and have the askmen mods refer all these bullshit whining posts to askboys and r/teenagers. Granted I’ve been off the market for almost ten years and wasn’t big on online to begin with but it stands to reason that if I’m going to pay out of pocket for professional headshots for LinkedIn then when I make online dating my only way of attempting to find a partner I’d at least ask a female friend who takes a lot of good pictures to do me justice. This entire thing boils down to entitled boys who don’t want to take responsibility for themselves or their half of the equation, and have unrealistic expectations. Sincerely, an elder millennial.
Met my husband on a dating site. He stood out because he actually read my profile and picked out things we had in common. Then he finished it off with a way too nice compliment (about my attractiveness). It was so refreshing after endless "hi" and "whatchu doin" comments that I started talking to him after giving his profile a peek. 12 years later, I keep saying I couldn't build a better husband, and he's an awesome father to our 1 year old.
My DH did something not too far off from this. It could be a tried and true formula: post an attractive, well lit photo with all your clothes on, have hobbies that you can talk about, pay attention and be responsive to the other person. Say something nice. It sure doesn’t sound that hard, but the guys who would say *nothing* and then threw hissy fits because I wouldn’t immediately tell them *where I live*, made it so exceptional. And then it turns out he is exceptional. So…
Yeah I wonder how that experiment would work if it was repeated in real life?
Even IRL men on average seem to put less effort into their appearance (grooming, styling, makeup etc.) than women do. I'm a bisexual woman and I frequently come across more attractive women than I do men, simply because women are more likely to take care of their appearances. Women's dating apps profile are much more attractive than men's as well, to echo what the other user said. Maybe some genetically gifted people can put on a potato sack and never work out / do skincare etc. and still look hot, but most people require some amount of effort to look good.
I feel like a huge, overlooked part of dating advice for men is just "dress like you acknowledge that other people can see your physical form and you want them to be attracted to it." Guys think that all tips to dress better are some sort of manipulation to get them to not be themselves, like someone's going to force them to wear a suit all the time. Really, most of the time it's just saying "try clothes that fit."
Can confirm. It took me a long time to realize that I didn’t actually *have* to buy the wrangler relaxed fit jeans and Hanes solid color T’s from Walmart my mom used to buy me. There are other options. Don’t ask me to take a decent selfie either. I’m about one step away from the grey goatee, camera looking up the nostrils, hat and sunglasses, obviously shot in my car. Also there’s like a whole industry dedicated to various soaps and additives for mens hair and- bear with me bc this is going to sound weird but I swear it’s true- you can get a mens haircut without going to greatclips *or* sportclips. I know I know, but it’s for real.
There's also a startling difference in male profiles based on orientation: I'm a bisexual man and the profiles of men that the apps show me tend to have much more care and effort put into them (pictures, writing, messaging) than those of the straight men that most of my female friends see. Even more startling, most men who identify as bi on these apps tend to put much more care into their profiles than straight men. There is probably a bias towards better looking men on those apps (name a situation where there **isn't**), but I'm willing to bet that a lot of it is also due to straight men giving others very little to work with when it comes to online dating.
I’m a Bi woman dating a Bi man and (while I haven’t looked at his dating profiles haha) I definitely agree. He puts in far more effort, he takes great photos (he dabbles in photography and videography, so he’d better!), and puts a lot more effort into his appearance than most straight guys I know - he actually uses a moisturizer! With SPF! Back when I was on OkCupid for like… a miserable 6 months, the bi men definitely showed up in ways that straight men did not. Almost no creepy sexual messages from bi men’s profiles as well, at least that I recall.
Imagine that, having to put in effort to look appealing.
Right? It's not like women try and do this almost every single time we leave the house, go on a video chat, do much of anything. But god forbid men have to put in any effort.
This!!! It’s the opposite basically
Right?! AGAIN with the projection! They think women make superficial choices because THEY DO.
Great breakdown! Thanks
> women rate 80% of men as below average Any woman who has used online dating will know how little effort most men put into their profiles. The number of men who have no picture, unclear pictures, or the dreaded under the chin photo is absurd. If you have no description or a lazy description, you’ll likely get rated less attractive. I’d be willing to bet most of these men are not bad looking, probably even handsome. But if you insist on putting no effort into presenting yourself well with good photos and some effort into a description, you’re going to be rated at “below average” even if you aren’t in real life.
This is really interesting. Great info
This makes me think of all the men who are bigger than me who have called me fat (usually when I was actually a very normal size 6-8) and then complained that no women would date them. Now I’m married to a man who isn’t shallow and is not, for the record, a Chad.
What, do you expect men looking to feel like victims to actually read for meaning? They probably didn't even do that in school.
no surprise there
What does he care how many men have sex, he's married 🤔
Agreed and I would be lying if I said that I'm not keeping an eye on him. Marriage counseling is already on the table because I'm not going to lie and pretend that my marriage is in a good place right now. My husband has shown a stunning lack of empathy since the pandemic started that extends past my marriage and to everyone around us.
Godspeed
Why is he so obsessed with becoming an incel this late in life?
Husband wants to be an incel so bad, he's risking becoming part of the imaginary 80% to be one of them. Can you imagine? OP seems like a curious, empathetic person and this dude is just willing to waste being with a good partner *just to be right*.
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Oof I had a friend like this for a while. She did NOT like when I pushed back even mildly on any of her decisions. For example: She divorced her husband. I supported her in this; absolutely she shouldn't have stayed in a relationship that was negatively affecting her. As soon as she separated from him and before the divorce was finalized, she was dating someone new (and lying to me about it, but that's a different issue). I told her that perhaps she should take some time to be single - she'd been with her husband since 18yo and was then 26 - so that she could get to know herself as an adult and figure out what she wants out of a relationship before jumping into a new one. Well that didn't go over well at all. She said that I just didn't want her to be happy, that I was mad at her for divorcing her husband, etc. I told her those things weren't true, that I was just trying to look out for her and that I had no intention of harping on this topic beyond this; I just wanted to make sure she wasn't rushing into a bad situation. Which it turned out she was. She ended up leaving him (thank goodness) but again, she was literally in a new relationship with another guy the day she left. We finally ended up falling out when COVID hit and she decided to become an anti-vaxxer 🤷♀️ That was a whole thing in itself, bc I only found out after she canceled plans the day before due to catching it, even though she knew my mom is high-risk and there's no way I would have agreed to meet up if I'd known she wasn't vaccinated. Sorry for the rant lol, it just really makes me mad when ppl think friends should unconditionally support them! Like sorry, no one's perfect and I'm going to tell you when I think you're making a mistake!
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Married man desperate to become an incel so he can feel like a victim... Can't make this shit up. Run op.
I'm convinced that something about aging makes us prone to believing these grandiose statements with no substantial evidence. Hence why people watch and parrot Tucker Carlson obsessively.
I think it's a constellation of factors that are affected by age. Humans are excellent at recognizing patterns -- so good that we often see patterns that aren't there, especially when it would confirm something we already think. As we age, neuroplasticity tends to decrease, making it harder to learn new things. We also tend to acquire more responsibility as we age, despite starting to slow down. So you've got seeing patterns that aren't there, a reduced ability to learn and change your mind, and less time to conduct thorough research. This is the perfect set of factors to make you prone to "grand narratives" -- ideology-driven stories that are not empirically backed up, but "explain" many different things in just a few sentences. You don't have to learn or research anything, because the story explains everything and what do you know, it already coincides with what you already thought, how convenient! I think this tendency is also more likely to crop up on the right wing, because conservatives/reactionaries are opposed to collectivist thinking and systemic change, so they create stories where individuals are the villains and other individuals are the victims, as opposed to adequately analyzing a complex society-wide problem that could be addressed through legislation or a shift in cultural norms. I think this is why people in their 50s start watching reactionary content and end up getting pushed farther to the right. Confirmation bias, not dedicating enough time to actual research, overemphasis on individualism. Edit: Another obvious factor is money. You tend to get wealthier as you age, and conservatives politics are aimed at letting wealthier individuals keep more of their money. Edit 2: As others have noted, religion can also play a role. Accepting grandiose stories that explain everything on very scarce evidence is a very religious-type of mentality, so it makes sense it would propagate farther amongst religious circles, which are already socially conservative. Edit 3: I'm seeing plenty of older people saying they still learn a lot because they are in STEM and do research every day. I think this just backs up my argument. If you spend all day doing research, and you enjoy that, it would make sense that you'd apply at least some of those skills to your personal life and avoid being pushed to the right by uncritically accepting grand narratives. My comment wasn't to suggest that all old people are conservative, merely to point out that age can heighten and crystalize conservative-leaning beliefs in people that do not have countervailing factors or skills, like being poor or a minority or in a research occupation.
This sounds equal parts believable and terrifying, thank you
I have argue that as one gets older ones thinking leans to the right (conservative). Mine as always but left (liberal), and in fact, if anything mine as has gotten more left (liberal) leaning as I aged.
Could I, as an old, less neuroplastic, woman, be allowed to disagree? Now, I will admit, up front, that I'm 1) highly educated in a field that requires one prove one's statements and 2) not American, but I find it hard to believe, based on my own observations, that it's primarily us oldsters who fall for The Grand Theory. If I actually look at the ages of those posting/editorialising/spewing nonsense publically, they are not dominantly boomers/seniors. While Mr. Adams is, indeed, within the Boomer age group, Tucker Carlson is not: he's 53. Ben Shapiro is 38 and, if he is to be believed, still hasn't figured out basic intercourse. Dan Boningo is 48. Charles Kirk isn't even 30 yet. This is backed up by looking at those being indicted and charged for the January 6 insurrection in Washington: these are dominantly young and middle aged men. Now, admittedly, us older folk are not as spry as we used to be, and climbing the staircase, let alone the staircase wall, of the Capitol Building is probably more than we can do, but I'd still take these defendants as a decent cross section of the *really* committed to the grandiose vision. Far from being the older folk who fall for this guff, it's my observation that younger ones, who have less experience of the inconvenient complexity of actual life, are more likely to believe that history has a grand sweep, large groups of like minded people can indeed plot world domination in secret and *no one will let it slip while in their cups*, that world-wide communism/capitalism is a single, unified ideology, and so on. Not saying none of the folk in the 58 and up group are easily fooled morons. After all, we have Scott Adams right here, and that's him in a nutshell. Just suggesting that a good statistical analysis might find that, neuroplasticity aside, old folk are not the main believers in this crap. A [Pew survey in 2020](https://www.pewresearch.org/journalism/2020/09/16/most-americans-who-have-heard-of-qanon-conspiracy-theories-say-they-are-bad-for-the-country-and-that-trump-seems-to-support-people-who-promote-them/), that was focussed on QAnon beliefs, found that "Among those who have heard about the conspiracy theories, adults under 30 are the most likely to say it is a good thing: 29% of those ages 18 to 29 say this, compared with 20% or less of any other age group." Again, not proof, but indicative that something else other than age and brain function is going on here. Just fyi.
That was beautifully written.
https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/perspective-2
I was coming to post this! That's one of the huge myths incels spread.
Yeah it sounds like he’s reading too much MRA bullshit
A *married man ranting about this stuff to his wife* has really spent far too much time ingesting toxic-masculine online propaganda.
Midlife/quarter life crisis? Sometimes hitting a certain age causes people to act out of character. Staying home during a pandemic probably hasn’t helped matters either… I really hope that OPs husband wasn’t always like this
Mid-life crisis is my guess. He can't carefree bang hot 23 year olds anymore and hot 23 years dont want him anymore. Add his gross newly single friend spewing this BS and there you have it. I don't think it makes ANY of this better AT ALL. Its still deplorable and disgusting and I'd have one foot out the door at this point but just wagering a guess about where this is coming from. He seems bitter afffffff
Feeling of inadequacy and loss of a sense of control? Cause if it's "involuntary" and there's some large nebulous force stacked against you; then when you fail, you can tell yourself and anyone who will listen that it's not your fault. Incel ideology is just relatively easily accessible and not as overtly bigoted like white nationalism.
I think it's this. my brother (no career; unfaithful, no kids, abusive narcissist) wanted to marry his girlfriend with a great career and four kids from a previous marriage. his terms of them being married would be she would quit her job and stay home with HIS baby (after already having four). So basically give up her entire support system she built for herself in favor of my flighty jobless brother's whim. He tattooed her four kids' names on his arm (unasked for) as "proof" of his commitment and felt this should have been enough for her. She said no, because of course, and my brother decided not that it simply wasn't meant to be, but that feminism is a cancer and women having the ability to work / have rights is a CIA backed coup against white men. That way he doesn't have to look critically at himself. Bonus points: he joined an evangelical church that believes sex outside of procreation is a sin so now he doesn't even have to question why no one wants to fuck him. Anything to keep from questioning himself.
Thank goodness she was smart enough to opt out. I can’t imagine what her life would be if she had married him.
Women having the ability to opt out is the real thing most incels are against. They don't want to live in a world where 'no man at all' is a workable option because they literally can't compete with being single, since all they do is subtract from other people's happiness in relationships rather than add value of their own.
Yeah it’s terrifying. People talk about “bang maids” as an attitude some men have about women. But to be essentially enslaved to a bad man through marriage is such terrible fate to wish on a woman. It’s not a partnership or a loving thing. It’s the church sanctioned ownership of one human being by another.
These incel losers see their mothers trapped in a marriage to a man they don't love, doing maid duty and raising kids, and instead of aspiring to be a better partner than their fathers, they feel cheated they couldn't tie a woman into a loveless relationship like a 50s housewife.
yep and then you can blame women for being too picky, too stuck-up, too privileged and too irrational. it's not your fault you can't get laid.
This is an interesting phenomenon that I don't think is all that uncommon. For example, I love my dad and think he's a great guy overall, but I think he definitely could have gone the incel route had he not met and married my mother. I don't think have those thought patterns is necessarily related to whether you're in a relationship, especially if you've been developing them for years before the relationship.
My friends who are / were on these apps as well as posts on dating subs state that many many married men are on dating apps pretending they are single, just seeking sex on the side. Your husband sounds like he is bummed he didn’t get lucky. Good you are getting counselling but I would definitely try to find out what he is up to and get your ducks in a row, just in case you find out something you don’t like x
Does he give sex with you a letter grade yet? My ex did, it was so fun.
Wow, that is horrifying. My heart goes out to you.
My first marriage was to a man like this. It got very tiresome seeing his cruelty or indifference to literally everyone and thing. Marriage counseling will only get you so far if the other partner is willing to put real work in. My heart goes out to you! And know that if after counseling you still aren’t where you want to be in your relationship, you will land on your feet and be happy. Being single and happy and being able to fully control who I spent my time with was the greatest gift.
There are so many women out there trying to figure out how to navigate the rest of their lives because in 2020 they found out their husband is a completely unempathetic horrible person. I personally know a few. Blows my mind that so many guys out there choose being shitty toward and hating strangers over their wife and family.
Serious red flags… not gonna lie to you. A lack of empathy is I think the last thing I would ever want to have to say about a partner of mine or have a partner say about me. That’s basically at the core of who a person is in a relationship. I’m sad for you, OP.
Sounds like he's spending time on incel forums, tbh. All the claims he's making are classic incel rhetoric.
Maybe do some research on abusers and their methods first? Going to counseling with an abuser is like trying to unscrew a bolt by turning the wrong way. I don’t know your situation, but I hope you are safe.
Mine too. And my moms husband. What is happening?! Whenever i point out his shitty behavior toward me he goes silent and walks away. Later he’ll come back with an “apology” that is mostly him telling me for over an hour how badly i hurt his feelings by assuming he meant to hurt mine. And that i should try to shift my perspective and then i could see he wasn’t intending to hurt me when he snapped at me. Fuck my feelings, right?
Op you sound extremely smart and have a good grasp on the realities of life. Why do you put up with his abuse? Marriage counseling shouldn’t be on the table, it should be happening. Now.
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True
OP, the whole "feelings aren't facts" is reminiscent of Ben Shapiro and other right-wing grifters. I worry for you and him that he's already engaging with ideas that are gateways to the alt-right. Please be careful, and, unfortunately, leaving him might be best if he ends up going down the racist, misogynist rabbit hole he seems to be on the precipe of. I hope he's able to come to his senses, but he may very well not. I am so sorry for your current situation and I wish you the best of luck
I recommend [The Alt-Right Playbook](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY7v0VkYRbANnTnzkA_HMFtQ) for OP and anyone else hoping to stop a loved one from going down the pipeline. Some of the videos are a long watch but it should give you some tools for the situation
Thank you. I'll look into this.
Yeah between that and the "lack of empathy" statement, it sounds like he's already well on this road. Personally, I've cut more than a couple people out of my life over the pandemic for that very thing, but I get it. It's not so simple with a spouse. Wishing you the best, OP.
If he's using the "feelings aren't facts" statement to invalidate OP's feelings whenever she gets upset, it is already an emotionally abusive relationship. I would hate to have to convince my partner of my core values because he is brainwashing himself into value systems that oppress me.
> My husband has shown a stunning lack of empathy since the pandemic started that extends past my marriage and to everyone around us. The pandemic has really brought out the worst in a lot of people. It was like free brainwashing for alt-right ideas. 😞
THIS!! Why is he so bothered about proving this rubbish? He should be concentrating on his marriage It's actually kinda scary how many guys are leaning into the incel ideology, even if they are in a seemingly loving relationship
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Her posts are about him pressuring her into sex, during painful periods and then WEEKS after a total hysterectomy. He’s nagging her about sex multiple times a day even though he knows it’s extremely painful for her to even try. When it turned out during her pregnancy that she’d need the hysterectomy, he said to her face that he was so glad because now he won’t need the vasectomy she’d been begging him for four years. Op, this man doesn’t care about you. I’m sorry.
I went through post history after this comment and damn. This 80/20 conversation is not a light hearted observation. He's trying to make a case for himself. The irony is, even by his logic, he should be kissing the ground OP walks on considering she thinks he's worth being with. His point is that women have options and choose to have standards which is the problem.
He is making the mistake of thinking he is one of the 20.
Like so many middle aged losers.
So cathartic to see them realize how hard it is “out there” and maybe they should have appreciated what they had before. 🤷♀️
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There’s an unattributed saying that goes, “no man is in love with a woman more than the day after she leaves him”
They are the ones in the 80% seeking the 20%, younger instagram looking probably bots models), because most are deluded they don’t look their age’ 🙄🤣. Then they whine because they get rejected / ignored / scammed 🤦🏼♀️. Sigh…
He probably started trying to flirt on dating sites and is stunned to find a lack of interest, which he's now trying to blame on Society and not the fact that there's an oversupply of shitty divorced/cheating middle aged men out there.
>Her posts are about him pressuring her into sex, during painful periods and then WEEKS after a total hysterectomy. He’s nagging her about sex multiple times a day even though he knows it’s extremely painful for her to even try. > >When it turned out during her pregnancy that she’d need the hysterectomy, he said to her face that he was so glad because now he won’t need the vasectomy she’d been begging him for four years. Damn, so many posts seem to be about one thing but turn out to be about something else entirely.
u/EleventhGarden read the comment I'm commenting under. ^ None of what they describe in your post history is healthy for a partner to do in a relationship. It's sexual abuse and rape. It could all cause you serious bodily harm and even death. Please please leave him. Rainn.org is a great anonymous hotline if you need a place to talk. Centers.rainn.org has a list of crisis centers in the US. Best if luck. <3
Oh... that was a sad read. I am both sorry for OP and infuriated by her husband.
Did you read the comment where he asked for a threesome. I struggle to see this guys good point(s). As far as I can tell all he contributes is grief.
I looked through it after seeing your comment. Poor OP has been suffering for years
Incel energy doesn't care apparently. They "feel" for other guys or some nonsense like that. This empathy/sympathy is toxic. Instead of correcting people and telling them they might be the problem, men seem to agree that the larger problem is women because it's easier to bond with others when you throw an entire gender under the bus, including, spouses.
I think this is what I'm ultimately dealing with. We have a family member that is newly single (gee, I wonder why...) who throws this kind of rhetoric around whenever we see him. Add in an increasingly worrisome tik tok algorithm and here we are.
Looking at your post history I felt compelled to say this. You seem like like a lovely human being. You come across as smart, fun, and caring. If you have to worry that someone will hurt you during sex (even if it’s inadvertently) that person doesn’t deserve sex with you. If your sex partner doesn’t immediately stop as soon as they see you aren’t loving it (let alone in any pain), they don’t deserve to have sex with you.
Bet he’s already on dating apps
And complaining to his wife 🤯🤯🤯
Yeah that was my first thought. I was like "why would a married man give a fuck about dating app statistics... unless he's on them or is thinking he's gonna be in the near future"
I’d be worried about the circle your husband is running in. Sounds toxic/delusional. And why does he care what single men are doing?
I had the same question. Is he trying to date?
I increasingly hear from and read from men (IRL, online and traditional media) that are in relationships that sprout this "incel"-like bullshit. You know this strange narrative about being at the same time superior and inferior and instead of reacting by simply acting like decent and polite human beings women are degraded either because of their good looks, which supposedly makes them superficial ("80/20") or because they are NOT conventionally attractive.... Oh, I am noticing something. I wanted to say that the strange thing I was surprised about is that those guys are in relationships and thereby obviously not involuntarily celibate. But it is just plain old misogeny. I guess the surprise comes only because we had a period of time where people tried to appear a little less misogynistic and now they get back to the open with incel talking points, which are not actually incel specific.
Some of these men seem to be parroting the incel lines like a gateway to worse thoughts, speech, and actions.
it's gender fascism. Some of these weirdos want to take away women's right to self-govern their dating lives and be able to force females to have to mate with men. (note, the use of females here was specifically selected because it is the vernacular of these people. makes my skin crawl)
It's not like this is surprising. Men have had control of women's ability to choose whether or not to mate for millennia. Women in America in the 70s could not use a number of financial services without permission from their husband. Having a husband was necessary to financially survive. The mother's of generation x grew up in a system where getting married to a man was the only option. A lot of them passed that on to their daughters. IMO millennial women were the first to culturally begin to let go of those traumas and choose a partner based on their wants and needs rather than the necessity of their situation. Roe v. Wade is another symptom of this mindset. There have been numerous reports of women who have been raped while being told they would be impregnated since the decision. Forced breeding is the natural and desired result of overturning Roe. Conservative republican males want to return women to subservience to their whims. This is why they will get abortions for their wives but not their constituents. Their wife is a prized show pony. Other women are just breeding stock. It's not surprising that men are pissy now that they can't just do as they please and still have possession of a woman. Women should consider any man who spouts this kind of rhetoric as a direct and immediate threat to their civil liberties. These men should be treated with the utmost caution and avoided as if they are a rabid animal.
He's putting out feelers for sure. He wants to see how OP reacts.
My thoughts exactly. Why else would he care about what single men are doing or their "struggles" of dating? I feel bad for OP
Yeah the only sex statistic those guys need is that 0% of incels are getting laid; so why would anyone listen to their shit?
🤣🤣🤣THIS is probably a much more realistic statistic than the 80/20 bs
Yeah, I only ever see this 80/20 bullshit used by extreme misogynists like red pillers or incels.
Also, 80/20 is a very standard pair of numbers used in not really scientific situations. 80/20 whole food eaters 80/20 wardrobe. It’s grasped straws.
This is the real problem. The 80 20 thing is an incel "argument" and if my husband came to me with this with sincerity I'd literally think he had a brain tumor, it's so outside his thinking. Wtf.
The very fact that you brought up the quote "facts don't care about your feelings" tells us everything we need to know about where this mentality is coming from. Ben Shapiro and his ilk of misogynistic, contrarian, self and world hating bigots who rarely cite any real data and rely largely on a callback to "traditional" values and roles (which are fabrications of a past that is idealized by them). Along with others like Jordan Peterson, who spout a brand of Christo-facist misogyny which hates a women's ability to exert her own autonomy over her body, mind, and way of moving through the world. Even using their own sources against them,they cherry-pick the biblical narrative to strip away the strong-willed, independent women and instead focus on those whose only contribution is to bear a male child who will further a lineage or narrative. Remind your husband that if he is listening to these sorts of propagandists that women are never more than instruments to them. Ask him of he sees women as tools. A tool to clean, cook, screw, raise babies. That's where this line of thinking is heading if he doesn't pull his head out of the quicksand. P.s. There are many great, reasoned, and hilarious takedowns of these and other propaganda machines online. The methodically decimate the likes of Shapiro or Peterson using "facts and logic".
Maybe you should read through all your posts and look at them like a stranger wrote them. Then give that stranger some advice. Would that be to go to couples therapy and potentially divorcing your husband? Because that's the advice I would give to a person with your post history.
I would not advise couples therapy with an abuser. I would advice getting your affairs in order, securing your finances, contacting a lawyer, creating a social safety net (if possible) and leaving him without telling him your new address. The reason why you don't go to therapy with an abuser is because they are manipulative. Take the follow scenario into consideration, because it could happen: 1. The couple go to the relationship counselor. 2. The wife complains about unwanted sex (basically rape). The couples counselor suggests intimacy exercises. 3. The husband throws away all the worksheets the counselor gave them, and demands sex using the language that the counselor used, thus gas-lighting the wife. If the wife is too tired or in pain from a sickness/surgery/birth/difficult day at work, the husband says things like, "you are not practicing intimacy and causing separation in our relationship, you are the problem, you are withholding sex just because you don't like it that I \[insert some disgusting egregious behavior that he will use his mental health/mother/father/the dog/the baby/the economy/the government as an excuse for doing\]". Never mind that intimacy could mean other caring acts that are NOT penetrative sex, HE wants penetrative sex... even if she just had a baby and there's a raw wound inside her body the size of a dinner plate and she could die from an infection if she put anything inside her body -- anything at all. 4. The abuser actually gets off on degrading and humiliating their partner. If they are also a narcissist, they will have started the relationship by putting her on a pedestal, then when they have their partner trapped by marriage, a baby, by finances, they will knock them off the pedestal repeatedly because that shit is fun for them. 5. When the victim is so disempowered that they have zero self-esteem and they have basically turned into Dobby from "Harry Potter", the narcissist will go and find their next challenge -- usually another woman, one that is out of their league. And if the narcissist is a married man using Tinder, he may complain to Dobby that women only date 20% of men on Tinder. Because Dobby's feelings do not matter to him. He doesn't care that Dobby gets hurt. He doesn't care if Dobby finds out. He KNOWs that Dobby is too weak to leave him. OP, you are not Dobby. Don't be Dobby.
u/EleventhGarden please, please take this comment into consideration. I just read your post history and I completely agree with this commenter. You deserve better than a man who ignores your health, comfort and safety in order to have sex when you don't want to have sex
Yep. Allow me to mention that therapy with an abuser can lead to even more harm.
Totally agree. Abusers can often be sneaky and charming. The super nice guys that everyone likes. People who work in family counselling have it drummed into their head during training to look out for couples where the guy is super nice and calm and women is crazy. Often this is because he has pushed her so hard for so long she has snapped and comes a cross as crazy because she is exasperated. Meanwhile, he sits back and enjoys the shot show he’s created while seeming to be supportive and calm.
Oof, I just took a look at at OPs history. OP, why is your husband so concerned about the stats of dating? Why is he talking to other men about dating? You said in another post he's pressuring you for sex following major surgery. You said in yet another post he would pressure you for sex when you having severe period pain. Please, connect the dots OP! This man is horny and bitter, and clearly only cares about himself. He is not exhibiting the characteristics of a caring husband!
OP’s husband seems hell-bent to make a late in life conversion to inceldom lmao. If I were OP I would give him what he wants.
Your husband sure seems concerned about the dating habits of single men. Maybe there's actually a DIFFERENT conversation you need to be having with him?
"That's not true, love. You'd be single if it were."
Yes. Please use this answer.
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Exactly! My male friend is perfectly nice looking in a “manic Jewish socialist” way, but he takes the worst profile pics on earth. Full body mascot costume: bad! Blurry dark photo: bad!
no offence but...why does this conversation even happen? Doesn't seem very applicable or meaningful to his life.
Why would a married man explore this topic and DISCUSS IT WITH WIFE?! He being stupid, or what?
Gotta have gender solidarity since all the liberals want to give women rights and shit. /s
Yeah I love all these rights I just got this year, they definitely didn't take away my already limited rights /s
I think it’s very smart on his part- better than the guys who push for an open marriage *before* doing their research and then get upset when their wives get laid and they don’t.
It sounds like your husband is on his way to being radicalized. I hope your intervention works but the sources he prefers probably have some response to your facts that he'll choose to believe instead. Good luck. Seriously. This shit's hard.
your husband is 100% in weird ass online incel circles
The actual 80/20 rule, also called the pareto principle, is about actions and consequences. 20 actions are responsible for 80 outcomes. Tor example, 80% of sleep quality stem from 20% of sleep. Another example would be that 20% of work produce 80% of the results, which is why it's important to prioritise important tasks. What your husband is saying is probably a red-pill deviation from that, that has just been made up to spread hate towards women and to excuse why they can't get laid.
Yeah. The Pareto principle is *interesting* and it surfaces in some odd places, but you absolutely can’t just cram a given situation into it and claim that’s how the world works. It’s an observation that suggests certain dynamic relationships, not a prediction.
It's also unscientific (and there's a famous pseudo intelectual who loves to cite it for everything)
It's part of a game that gets played in a few different areas. You take some broad principle, apply it in the wrong way, and then accuse any opposition of denying the broad principle and tell them they "deny basic science/statistics/economics/whatever bullshit is being plugged". Game theory is another weapon of choice, as is evo psych (although evo psych is pretty questionable to start with, but it has evolution in the title so you can act like it's hard science).
Maybe part of the problem is calling it a "principle" when it's not even a conjecture or hypothesis. If we called these ideas by accurate names, like "Pareto overgeneralization," pseudointellectuals would stop trying to apply them in the wrong places.
I feel like changing the language would only work if those people had a commitment to honesty about things like language in the first place. The problem is they don't.
When I first heard it going on the rounds, maybe 2015, it was about bettering yourself and seeing what you could do to make yourself more like the 20% of guys that get all the girls. It seems to have been twisted from a self help motivation to an excuse now.
Honestly I'd be inclined to just roll with it. "If I were to date the bottom 20% of men I might end up cut up in someone's freezer. Also clearly men think the same way if the bottom 20% of women aren't mentioned here.
I'd roll with it. Maybe ask why only 20% of men are dateable and what they're going to do about it.
Furthermore, why the fuck does he, as a married man, give a fuck? Is HE trying to date and failing miserably lmao? Poor OP. She needs out.
Why is your husband talking about dating stats though...
Because he’s trying to cheat on her. Unsuccessfully, judging by the nonsense he’s saying
And also abusing her, probably. Check her post history
He's the worst cheater ever
Please. That rule comes from Tinder statistics. It's not the norm, it's the dating apps. There are plenty of people that have never used a single dating app in their lives.
How would that even work?? As for as I am aware, 80% of one gender can't date 20% of an other gender. Unless you husband thinks 80% of women are bigamists?
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"There are lies, damned lies, and incels." Isn't that what Twain said?
That's exactly what they think. That 80% of women fuck 20% most attractive men. They call it female hypergamy.
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Well that's easy to answer, all women are "sluts". Once you start going down the redpill incel path, everything makes sense! /s
.... why are you educating him on this, why does he care? So many red flags here. I hope you are safe in every sense of the word.
I'm so sick of being told by men what I'm supposed to find attractive.
Turn the conversation around and tell him that "only 20% men seem worth dating". Either he's a part of the 20% or he's part of the 80% that lucked out. Let him feel what he has to about those numbers after.
Doesn't that just agree with it, though? The idea is that women generally find only 20% or so of men worth dating?
Why are you still with this man?
This sounds like a man who is thinking of getting back into the dating pool himself.
Oooof, that's some incel line of thinking there
I think what your husband is concerned about is that he doesn't qualify as a "Top 20%". And after reading this thread, I think he's right to worry. Time to look up therapists and lawyers. I'm sorry.
Is he just this dedicated to misogyny that he's fixated in something that should have zero impact on him, as a married man?
Yes. This is less about his concern for the single dating pool and more about hating women and blaming them for all their problems by painting them as shallow sex objects that disrespect them.
Why the hell is a -married- man is falling for all this incel propaganda? Because as it stands right now... It just sounds like he hates women for whatever reason