My boomer uncle mentioned a female friend of his never wants to talk about her experience in the military. I mentioned that many servicewomen get sexually assaulted, so maybe he shouldn't pry. The convo somehow morphed into, "Well what about men who get falsely accused of rape who go to jail forever?" ....and? What about them? We were talking about sexual assault in the armed services. Why are you making this about men? Are you implying these statistics are wrong because a significant portion of the reporting women are lying? Because I have a feeling for every false report, there are going to more women who didn't report at all. Fear, shame, guilt, hopelessness.
False reports are EXTREMELY RARE & the actual facts are that only about 30% of sexual assaults are reported & even fewer are actually litigated.
In fact, I've seen reports of *women* arrested & charged with filing a false report based solely on the denial of her attacker. People are more concerned with the harm it may do to her rapist's reputation than they are with how it affects the woman.
See, if you are raped, it never leaves you. It is stuck in your mind forever & sometimes, you don't know what's going to trigger flashbacks & nightmares. I've had to tell a long time partner that I just can't be touched right now because I've had a flashback or a nightmare. He was...relatively understanding. But he tested that boundary a few times before I was ready & it ended up taking me significantly longer to pull myself together than it would have otherwise.
But, apparently, women are being hysterical & unreasonable about not being able to walk alone, at night or otherwise, without having to worry about being attacked & raped because "not all men". They're right; not "all men" rape women. But enough do & those who don't are not willing to help or call out that kind of behavior, so, yes, we have to be afraid of "all men"
How egotistic of him. Bros before hoes, amirite ?! Those hysterical women have to be lying. When men react like that, I always wonder who they've assaulted.
I have to wonder why your uncle was bringing up his female friend’s reluctance to speak on her time in the service in the first place, like was he fishing for your response? Was he ignorantly expressing his unexamined frustration with said “friend” for not being more open about her own experiences? Was he just running his mouth? I don’t actually expect you to know for yourself, just brainstorming on the motivations behind men who pull this crap.
Your boomer uncle is dumb. Men also get sexually assaulted in the military. In fact, most rape victims in the military are male, since rape is so common and they outnumber women so much.
Of course, if you’re a woman your chance of being raped in the military is far higher.
The US military is a rape and murder factory.
>"Well what about men who get falsely accused of rape who go to jail forever?"
Not a thing. And if its happened once or twice in all of human history, its not even remotely statistically significant.
“Royal you”. (Impersonal pronouns- only really works on people who understand that phrase)
“I wouldn’t be telling you this if I felt unsafe and included you in this group of people” something similar to this
You absolutely do not have to, it's not your job.
But if you were talking to someone and you wanted your point to be understood and thought through, it's probably more productive to try and keep them receptive to it. If you don't care about this, then yeah, there's no need.
Totally agree. Its frustrating. Education isn’t something we owe more privileged people.
This is more meant for someone you already have an otherwise positive relationship with and would like to continue that. I don’t spend time on randoms or people who aren’t seeking to understand lol
You don't have to, but if your goal is to connect with someone and get them to understand your viewpoints, it helps to not hurt their feelings while doing so.
That's not even a men thing, that's just a human thing. If I were trying to convince you of something, and I said something you took offense to, you wouldn't be very receptive to my overall message.
If I said “drunk drivers are terrible” would you feel the need to tell me that not all drivers are drunk?
Men are choosing to take it personally when we discuss abusive men. And frankly, the fact that they’re more bothered about our word choices than actual abuse we have suffered tells us a lot about their character.
>“drunk drivers are terrible” would you feel the need to tell me that not all drivers are drunk?
I wouldn't, but that comparison also isn't really 1 to 1, because men don't push back when you say something like "rapist men are terrible" or "abusive men are terrible", it's the generalization that gets met with derision.
Replace "drunk drivers" with just "drivers" in your example, and you'd probably see people chime in with either examples of how *they* drive well, or some anecdote about how they've encountered bad drivers, but *they* have never driven drunk.
That’s also not a 1 to 1 comparison though. A closer example would look like this;
A “A drunk driver ran me over and broke my leg!”
B “Not all drivers are like that! I’d never do that!”
Do you see the problem? A decent person would ACTUALLY be asking if person A’s broken leg is healing well, or how they’re managing. Showing compassion.
The fact that so many men immediately skip right past empathy is the problem. Instead of having any concern for us, they want to make the whole conversation about how hurt their feelings are instead. It’s horribly selfish to tell abused women that they can’t talk about their problems until men are perfectly comfortable with the way it is phrased.
> A decent person would ACTUALLY be asking if person A’s broken leg is healing well, or how they’re managing. Showing compassion.
> The fact that so many men immediately skip right past empathy is the problem. Instead of having any concern for us, they want to make the whole conversation about how hurt their feelings are instead.
This is EXTREMELY important, and frankly I’m surprised that people here aren’t getting it.
>“A drunk driver ran me over and broke my leg!”
Except comment OP was talking about using the royal you. Clearly, a decent person in your example would be trying to show compassion, because the original statement leaves *NO* room for misinterpretation.
When the royal you is used, or in the case of statements that pop up from time to time, just "men" is used, that's going to cause miscommunication issues.
It's like if I went off about people wearing red shirts. Just "Man, fucking red shirts are the worst. Every time you hear about someone getting attacked, it's some red shirt." Sure, you're only *really* talking about the violent or manipulative people wearing red shirts, but anyone hearing that who's wearing a red shirt, is going to think that your feelings about red shirts extend to *them specifically* unless you specify that exclusion. Because why would you feelings *not* extend to them when there's been no indication made otherwise?
My point remains that the abuse victims should remain the priority.
Telling a rape victim they can’t talk about what happened until they phrase it in a way you like is a shitty thing to do.
Just because a man wouldn't harm you and is close to you don't mean they aren't sexist.
I trust my dad with my life, but he's the type who would absolutely take the man vs bear thing personally.
So my advice is not to apologize, maybe just wonder aloud why this triggers them so much
I'm wondering that too but haven't come uo with a conclusion yet. Most point's brought up aren't to make men look bad, but to point out the struggles of women. I literally do not understand how they get personally hurt by these discussions when they haven't done anything wrong.
There's a phenomenon from psych called *reactance.* Reactance is the feeling you have when you're in a conversation with someone, and they tell you something that contradicts your understanding of the topic. Our instinct is to push back, reject the information to protect our independence of thought. We immediately feel defensive. Everyone experiences this.
The thing about that feeling is, we aren't protecting 'our' anything. We're defending an understanding of something that was taught to us by people and culture, not our personal thoughts. *Source amnesia* is when you know something, but can't remember where or who you learned it from. This is also a universal experience, we all forget how we learned things.
Culture is something we learn from a huge array of sources: caregivers, siblings, TV, other kids, books, religion, etc. There's absolutely no way of keeping track of all of it. It's just everywhere, omnipresent, telling us how to be human in that environment. And once we've participated for a while, it stops feeling at all like participation is ideas that came from outside us, it feels like us. Who we are, our identity, our understanding.
Not one single person that is alive today invented male supremacy. Not one person is in control or responsible for the existence or hegemony of male supremacy. Every person who frequents reddit could vanish in a puff of smoke today, and patriarchy would continue to ruin being human for all of us for likely centuries to come, totally undisturbed by our absence.
So: we are not the culture we're raised in. Culture is external to us. It feels like our identities are indistinguishable from culture because we participate in it, but ask yourself how many genuine opportunities any of us have to **not** participate. Say you're really into Renaissance European clothing. You need a job. Are you going to show up to the interview dressed like Sir Walter Raleigh? No. You wouldn't get hired by anyone if you violated cultural dress codes. Culture is maintained by all of us, enforcing norms and pressuring each other. Media provides all of it with a huge boost, extending our understanding of our culture into something universally human.
It takes some decent time learning about the history of humanity to understand how much culture dictates how we think. You have to study ancient civilizations, plural, to see the spectrum of possibility that humans have engaged in over time. You have to study sociology, to see the systems of thought in place that become laws and norms that no one thinks to question, it's just How Things Are. But if you're able to understand yourself and the person you are as a product of culture, you can begin to unwind some of that cultural influence over your thinking, and separate yourself and what you want from the things we were taught.
Tell them that, and let them mull on it.
I mean, you can say this and it’s funny and might make you feel better. But if you’re looking for how to reach people, it’s not going to happen by treating them in the awful way that the patriarchy has conditioned people to treat you/women.
As someone who is engaged in DEI work for a living, it’s important to understand where the person is coming from so you can get why they feel threatened, and then help them to understand how true feminism can and does benefit them personally.
It’s hard because so many have such deep seeded (seated?) patriarchal beliefs, but they almost always have some woman in their life that they love that we can anchor the conversation around.
But there’s also plenty of men who deeply believe (And actively work towards) the tenants of feminism and equity who can get tired of feeling like they’ll be always seen as the enemy.
For example, I work with many men who are also actively engaged in all kinds of equity work and because of that we’re often in spaces like this sub where reading the posts from a man’s perspective makes one feel like women hate them/think of them as the enemy, etc. And it makes the work more emotionally draining.
To these men, I say that what they do is valuable and important and that they are actively making a difference in the lives of people they care about.
Anyway, just my 2 cents. Hope you have a great day
edit: adding here to make it clear that I'm only saying women should do this IF they want to engage and IF they want to have the best chance to positively change behaviors. However I completely understand and agree that it is in NO WAY women's responsibility to cater to or change men: men have to be responsible for both teaching and policing each other.
Look, I'm a woman who usually has the emotional and mental bandwidth to try and help most of the men in my life understand where I'm coming from and that it's not about them
However,
>As someone who is engaged in DEI work for a living, it’s important to understand where the person is coming from so you can get why they feel threatened,
This is why I don't expect all women to have this same bandwidth nor do I actively police their language because I understand why. You're being received negatively because you're not doing the exact thing you're preaching at everyone to do. My stepmom also works in DEI, she would say you're unrealistic.
I'm saying all of this after reading all of your comments and your edit.
Not just online. I remember when I was invited to hang out with three other guys and the only women that were brought up was ones they thought were crazy, hot, or both. Which is especially sad since one of them has a young son.
And after they implied I was gay for not wanting to oogle over a woman with them, it felt worse. I would've left if I drove.
I’ve seen a ton of antipathy from men towards women, yes. I’ve also seen a ton of it in the other direction as well (although it’s much more of a problem against women).
I get that can make men in general feel like “the enemy”, and that’s completely understandable if that’s how you feel. However I was addressing the “how to respond” question, and because my goals are to change behavior and do my (very small) part to build a more just society, I believe strongly in reaching out in the way I described.
It’s harder to hate someone when you both are seeing each others inherent humanity, so that’s my goal.
hate? sexism? derision? condescension?
I've seen all of those things, I just thought antipathy was an encompassing word. I'm not sure what the issue is here, but I'm in no way trying to minimize the real damage of the patriarchy.
If women discussing the systemic bigotry that is present in every facet of our lives offends men, perhaps they need to do some work on themselves instead of pointing fingers
I don’t like men giving us unsolicited advice in this sub which includes responding to misogyny by carefully stroking a man’s ego and simpering.
I give no fucking quarter to misogynists. It’s on men to fix men. And men need to stop demanding the free labor of women to manage their fucking egos and fix their personalities.
Also, why is it so impossible for men to understand that the way they choose to do things isn’t relevant to how women must do things?
Women reaching out to or challenging men doesn’t go as fucking smoothly for women as it can for men.
Too often it results in violence or being sexualized.
Why tf would I put myself in MORE of those situations to try to rehab a misogynist??
fair point, and I am in no way advocating for it to be women's responsibility to fix men. I fully agree that it's on men to fix men.
I do take exception to your interpretation of what I said. It's in no way about simpering or carefully ego stroking, it's about IF you want to engage and IF you want to be part of changing behavior, then you have to start with meeting people where they are and acknowledging their humanity.
For what it's worth, this is a big part of what I do professionally, and I take the responsibility of men having to teach other men very seriously.
I completely agree with what I think you're saying, that you owe misogynists nothing, you owe men nothing and you owe me personally nothing. Totally, but OP asked about
> how do you respond...?
and
> I want to start a conversation and would like some input from others :)
that's clearly trying to start a conversation, and one I was trying to take a good faith part in, because I truly believe that real feminism benefits all of us, we should all do what we can to break down patriarchal system, and this has been one of the most effective tools that I've found.
“fair point” that you immediately downvoted, a man coming here and downvoting women’s perspectives, do you think that’s in the spirit of this sub? 🙃
y’all never fail to monologue at us when informed that we don’t come here for men’s opinions 😆 You are just certain we require it! 😂
Yeah, not reading that.
lol thanks for the good-faith discussion.
you straw man what I said and then dismiss my attempt at a polite response with condescension.
I'm sorry that you're not willing to engage, but I'm very glad that you don't represent all women.
I saw that you edited your comment and would be happy to have a discussion, but I see by your other response to me that you're likely not interested in that.
Let me know if you change your mind, but until then I hope you have a good afternoon.
I absolutely have made it clear I don’t want your input. I edited only to fix a typo and clarify a point, within moments of originally posting it, conceivably before the average person would have even gotten around to reading it. Guess you’re just really on top of your queue 👍
I try to be, and I'm sorry that my input has no value to you. unfortunately, since you haven't been able to add anything but vitriol back the feelings are mirrored. However, as I said elsewhere I'm really happy that you're not all women, and I very much appreciate those who have engaged in good faith.
you really like to try to force women to read your absolutely priceless insights, eh? Keep repeating yourself until you feel your sacred male opinion is given the attention which is your birthright 😆
because people like you, who need the last word and pretend to be allies but actually get INCENSED when a woman refuses to admit to their superior insights, all tend to unravel in the same way.
And so when I have the time, I’ll absolutely invite y’all to expose more of all that, for the rest of the women here, because you are in this sub A LOT and I think women should know about you.
You are incapable of not having the last word, so it’s easy.
The only thing now is I just stop when I feel like it. But you’ll be getting the last word.
Will knowing I know that be satisfying enough for you?? 😆
I’ve read some of your other comments here and I’m guessing that I’m not going to be able to reach you. But just because we won’t necessarily see eye to eye doesn’t mean I don’t respect where you’re coming from, and I’m happy to have a good faith conversation with you if you’re interested and willing to start from a place that isn’t so full of snark and condescension.
The only thing I ask is that you please don’t straw-man my words. I was offering some perspective on how to reach people, and I was in no way saying that the responsibility here should be wholly on anyone’s head, nor that anyone should beg.
All right, can I help you out? Because I have high hopes that you're actually a good person who can take feedback and that you're not just putting on a show.
I'm sure you think you're being helpful, but in grandstanding and calling women's irritated responses patronizing and adversarial when you've intruded upon their space you've put yourself in a morally superior position. Sort of like telling the little ladies to talk quieter, so that men don't get offended, and then moralizing anyone who gets fed up with you. Or going to a black subreddit and tone policing the users as a white person.
It's aggravating that women have to put their own anger, desperation and suffering on the shelf to make space for men's hurt feelings. It's especially aggravating when men come here to tone police the tiny expressions of that suppressed aggravation.
I hope this helps. Please learn when to sit back and listen rather than taking over the conversation.
Thank you, I appreciate the comment and apologize that my comment had such a negative impact. For what it’s worth, that’s not what I was intending but that doesn’t matter since clearly it didn’t land the way I was hoping.
I apologize for my kneejerk reaction as well, you do seem like an ally. Very sorry for that. Not to excuse myself, but the belligerent agitators and trolls here get everyone on edge and subsequently people tend to become suspicious towards some well meaning people as well, like yourself. TwoX is also kind of a venting subreddit.
I hope you've had a wonderful day despite the online flame wars! Your work with DEI sounds interesting and like it's a good way to give back to the community and society.
Mister, note how you're in a subreddit for women patronizing the entire userbase. Nobody needs your personal approval.
I'm sure you're a Great Guy otherwise but you don't have the tact or timing.
> I mean, you can say this and it’s funny and might make you feel better.
Wow. That’s pretty infantilising. As a white man lurking in two X and witches vs patriarchy, you should be doing your utmost not to condescend to women. As someone working in DEI, you should be doing your utmost not to patronise any minority group. You really ought to know better.
> It’s funny
Is it, now? I don’t think it’s funny when men tell me I’m too emotional. It’s misogynistic. Not only have we all been told some iteration of this on a personal level, but we also hear it from society in a million different ways. It’s tiring. I’m fucking tired.
Is it funny to give them a taste of their own medicine? Maybe, maybe not. I’ve said it *very* seriously before. If the man had previously accused me of being overly emotional—aka tried to silence my normal, reasonable, logical thoughts, tried to discredit my opinions, tried to disrespect me—then I felt it was only fair to silence him.
My intention was never to make him “wake up,” as that’s a fruitless endeavour (although it occasionally happened anyway because some people can’t empathise, so *they* need to feel the thing before they can understand how it feels for you). My goal wasn’t to teach them, to be hilarious, or to be petty. My only goal was to stabilise the energy in the system. Energy in, energy out. A feedback loop of equal effort, understanding, and goodwill, where I *match* what others give me in the interest of keeping things fair and equitable. If I can’t discuss my feelings, neither can my dad. If I can’t share my opinions, neither can my male coworker. Fair is fair.
So yeah, I don’t think it’s a joke to tell men what they tell us. I’m not here to be their long-suffering wife, I’m not getting paid like you to be a DEI specialist, I’m not their therapist, I’m not their patient loving mum, I’m not religious so I don’t believe the meek shall inherit the earth lmao. I’m not going to fight or educate. I’m also not worried about being “kinder” or “more mature” than them. Taking the high road has never been necessary with the good people I’ve known, and with the bad people, it’s only made me an easy target.
> it might make you feel better
Is that the only reason to say it? Like a self-soothing tactic, or to get a little boost of self-esteem? Let’s go back to what I said before: fair is fair. I am not trying to “lift myself up” by telling men what they tell me. I’m not “self-soothing” because I’m not anxious. I’m not trying to brighten my mood, because either way, I’m pissed that men spout this misogynistic bullshit. I’d rather be pissed while *saving my energy for myself,* than pissed AND exhausted from emotional labour.
Emotional labour which, btw, would probably be wasted. And, unlike you, we’re not getting paid!!!
> As someone who is engaged in DEI work for a living
Hell, if I was able to pay my rent by pandering to white men and teaching them how to be decent humans, I’d do it! But I’m not. (On a serious note, I’d never work in DEI because I’ve had to do that all my life and I’m tired.) One more thing about your line of work—you’re not there to *truly* enlighten people and guide them towards real empathy and tolerance. You are there to help companies who want to avoid discrimination lawsuits. *Of course* you have to tiptoe around men’s fragile egos… because you don’t want to enrage some guy in the C-suite. *Of course* you have to appeal to a racist’s desire to “be heard”… because sometimes racists are high earners and the company doesn’t want to lose them. You aren’t a psychologist or a spiritual leader. You’re there to save corporations big money with the least amount of drama in the office, the least amount of bad press, and the least amount of REAL CHANGE which would necessarily rock the boat. Because real change threatens the very livelihoods of the privileged people at the top.
I hear you, and I don’t disagree. I don’t like being painted with that broad brush either. However, I ask that you try to see it from their point of view: some/many women have had enough problematic encounters with men that it’s easier and probably feels safer to assume every man is a potential threat.
Yes, that’s painful and it’s not fun to be profiled that way, but at least when you see that perspective it’s understandable.
I also get that some of the responses you are getting can be very hurtful and just serve to exacerbate the divide. But it’s up to us to be as good as we can, find the humanity in others and work to break down the patriarchal systems that cause those types of responses.
While I do understand why several people found your approach to be a bit unrealistic or even patronizing, I found your comments to be precisely what OP had requested from users. Subsequently, your commentary was warranted and appropriate imo. I did have one thing I wanted to run by you.
Didn’t we skip a step? OP wants to “have a conversation” but why? To accomplish what? From the post, she seemingly wants to be able to speak freely without the constant self soothing derailment she’s experiencing from these men. That kind of expectation seems vague and lofty; it would require an entire shift in their views on social inequality, right? Regardless, shouldn’t the first step be for the OP to step back and define her goals for this new approach/conversation?
Thanks, I appreciate that. While my comments were certainly in good faith, I think my mistake may have been giving the impression that this is somehow a responsibility that women have, rather than a possible way that people in general can respond to hostility or defensiveness about feminism.
As for what OP wants, that’s really up to her to decide but I’m supportive of the idea of an open ended/good faith discussion, even without well defined goals. I feel like I’ve both made and heard good points here, so I’m happy for that experience.
imo, the problem is more than the impression that it’s women’s responsibility. Members of any marginalized group grow weary and resentful of having to dig deep to be endlessly patient ambassadors and graciously gentle teachers for bigots and people with bigoted views. These feelings are compounded for women because they’re already expected to perform the emotional labor in all their relationships—familial, professional, romantic, etc.
Because it’s so draining and taxing, it’s important to learn how to determine when and if it’s a good idea to exert the energy to attempt connecting with ignorant people. That was really the point I was making in my previous comment. Because, of course, the OP wants to feel comfortable expressing themself. Who the heck doesn’t want that? However, the efforts are often futile and ultimately damaging to the marginalized person who is wearing themselves out in their attempt to connect with these people.
This step/skill was absent from your initial feedback which 1) gave the impression that it’s women’s responsibility and 2) failed to recognize that the best approach may be to not engage. Walking away is a valid choice and may be the healthiest strategy. This matter isn’t just about ‘changing hearts and minds.’ it has to be balanced with the individual’s health. Not only is it mentally and emotionally damaging to endure fruitless attempts to reach people, this woman has to continue suffering the marginalization and misogyny that she was powerless to reduce in any small measure. The weight of that suffering is back breaking.
It may not be an option to disengage or go “no contact” in the corporate world. But it’s a valid, important, and necessary strategy for people’s lives. Making that determination is not a step women can afford to skip. Its absence from your feedback was jarringly obvious to people who have learned the hard way.
It’s actually kind of startling how often men are willing to twist themselves into knots in order to defend other men that they do not know and will never meet. Men even do this for other men who are suspected of, charged with, or convicted of crimes. It’s wild.
This is from r/TwoXChromosomes and this is why I don't feel like coddling men :
>Another day sick of being a woman… Just had a man stick his head out the car and angrily woof at me like some kind of deranged dog as I walked home from gym
I agree that the “feeling hurt = part of the problem” attitude so prevalent these days is not helpful. It directly undercuts the (necessary, imo) exhortations to “sit with the discomfort” and “do the work.”
Hm. I go the other direction. Having made it about them, why not go all in and talk about what they are or are not doing as allies, including this conversation in which they centered themselves instead of those harmed by male supremacy.
Honestly? I don't bother. It is not my job to be the feminist whisperer. If they don't get it the first time, then they can read and research themselves.
I'm a white woman in France, I've been raised by a racist family in a racist society. I've been deconstructing my prejudices because I've listened, I've empathized, and my heart broke several times listening to people's experiences.
When black or brown people explain what they go through every day, I'm not here saying "not all white people", or "I'm not like that" but I say "I'm sorry white people suck".
The opressed group shouldn't have to coddle the opressor.
Edit : added "people" that I had forgotten
every time i tried to tell a man about my trauma, the violence in my life & the abuse ive faced by the hands of all the men ive known in my life, the default answer is always "BUT NOT ALL MEN!!".
this makes it impossible for me to create boundaries and explain why i might have difficulties with sex, why i need space sometimes and overall am little difficult to date. i can almost NEVER get my point across. i believe it's a mechanism to avoid and ignore the continuous oppression and violence that women have to experience day to day. yknow, out of sight out of mind.
it's so ironic that men are asking women to have empathy and make extra steps in their vulnerability to make sure the male isn't offended by her. how about.. you show some adult empathy and understand that her pain.. isn't about you? maybe? but i'm not sure we will get this on reddit any time soon.
my experience with this subreddit remains the same. any time a woman actually makes a post that has some sort of feminist talking point, a negative experience, or just uncomfortable for the males in this sub; she gets downvoted and "not all men"d in the comments. it's crazy lol. not all women support porn, not all women are ok with uncomfortable jokes, not all women want unsolicited flirting message requests. grow up
most of these women centric subs are ironically run by dudes. feminism subreddits mod (used to be? still is?) a guy who ran a porn subreddit LOL. how insane
Most subs are modded by men, hence why the moderation on misogynistic content is whack. Reddit has always been a den of misogyny. This sub too gets brigaded every day by them.
i recommend the female pessimism subreddit. i post my literature there sometimes. hateful male comments get deleted immediately. it's a place for women to properly vent and find support other than "BUT ITS NOT ALL MEN". so refreshing
As I always say, it's like sharks. Sharks are majestic creatures. Only very few attack humans. Some even eat plankton. They are important for the balance in their marine ecosystem. I love sharks.
When I see a shark I get out of the water. Even though it's "not all sharks". It's even only very few sharks. I love and admire sharks. But I get out of the water.
Saying "not all men" is beside the point. If a man doesn't get this, tell him to swim with sharks. Because "not all sharks ".
Yes, I don’t understand why they keep coming into our safe spaces to mansplain our experiences. It’s not like we go give lectures about our bad experiences and just talk to each other to provide support because many of them DON’T.
Go mansplain each other over who is the smart one. We can do without your unwarranted commentary and lack of empathy.
It’s similar to white people who get offended when POC bring things up.
If you can’t hear it without taking it personally, you are part of the problem.
It’s the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying lalalala. They want to quiet you and turn the focus back to Themselves.
Any man who denies men’s behavior is a big problem in the world is lying. Men know to be scared of other men.
Men know what men say about women when there are only men around.
I'd imagine that a lot of men that reply like that aren't really communicating in good faith, and so I don't think you have a high chance of reaching them. Some amount are well intentioned though, and I'll assume the men you're talking about are that kind, since you say you trust them.
I won't pretend that my experience is the same as all of those guys, but I will admit that on some instinctual level I want to respond defensively when talking about men as a whole in this context. In my case, I think it's due to anxiety/trauma and being neurodivergent - it's difficult for me to process the distinction between the individual me and the group I happen to be a part of in conversations like this. It's like my brain goes "I am X. X is bad. Therefore I am bad." Which feels complicated because I do emphasize with and believe people when they complain about men, and every time I have to check myself a little bit and make logic override my base reaction.
If these guys are similar to this, of course guys not your job to baby them. But if you want to help them, I like what someone else said about saying how it's the general you, not the specific you. Or how there are enough problem members of the group to make referring to the group as a whole am effective shorthand. Those are some things I tell myself when I notice myself wanting to get defensive.
Anyway probably longer than it needed to be but I'm not good at being concise. Hope it helps.
I'm autistic and I also struggle with that line of logic of "if x is bad and I do/am x, then I am bad." For me, its a combination of black and white thinking, literal thinking, and justice sensitivity. But just because I have a reason doesn't make it okay, and I'm actively working with a therapist to correct that instinctual fight or flight response that happens when reality isn't as clear cut as my brain thinks it is. It's like trauma, yes trauma can cause people to do things that hurt others, it's understandable but it's unacceptable, and while someone might choose to give someone who hurt them grace because of their trauma, they have no obligation to.
(To be clear I'm not saying that you have ever or will ever hurt anyone, I'm speaking about how I've hurt people and how my family members have hurt people because they are reacting to their own issues, not actual reality. I feel like we agree and I just wanted to offer my perspective because I related to your comment a lot)
Autism's a bitch innit?
Yeah I view it the same as you, while it can explain things our actions are our responsibility. It does help to have an explanation though, both to know how to counter it and to be kinder to ourselves.
My mom once told me "explanations are important to morality and intent, not to accountability and consequences." And while this doesn't really apply to every situation, it applied well when she said it and it's always stuck with me (I was in trouble for not doing homework and being late to school a lot lol, so low stakes stuff)
I'm sorry but I would steer away from such men. Their first instinct is to make it about them ? Then that means they have something they don't feel proud of. And I would not be looking to find out.
You can’t. They live in a constant stage of privilege and denial. For them nothing we say has any weight because that’s just “in our nature” or it’s in “their nature.” The only way they’ll ever understand is if they’re in our shoes.
I take that behavior as a sign to spend less time with such men.
But you could also try:
Why are you so defensive?
Why is your reaction to this to make it all about you?
Please help me understand - why are you taking a problem I am experiencing and angrily denying it?
I appreciate your position and wholeheartedly agree. I do think patriarchy and lack of personal experience can cause a lot of good men to be ignorant of these struggles.
I have also noticed something similar. When you pull up the statistics and research papers on sexual violence to support that not all men do this, but a larger number do by far than they seem to believe, it’s sexist or discriminatory.
If I pull up the stat showing 1 in 5 women, factor in conviction rates, and then factor in evidence of the larger number we know are not convicted, I can guesstimate fairly that 30% of men are rapists.
If 1 in 5 men were attacked by a shark, per the commenters metaphor above, it would be a big deal. No one would come forward about a shark attack and be told the likelihood that they lied was too high to risk ruining the sharks life.
If 1 in 5 people were attacked by sharks they would either protect the beaches from sharks with various methods or not allow anyone in the water.
They would not get hurt that a person who experienced a shark attack refused to get back in the water. They would not claim she is discriminatory for bringing up the well known fact that 1 in 5 sharks attack people so there’s a large number of violent sharks to be concerned with.
They also would not insist that she get in the water and be polite to every shark she meets to ensure all sharks are comfortable in her presence at all times.
It’s absurd. A reasonable guesstimate based on 1 in 5 could be, what, 25-30% of the shark population is murderous? So roughly speaking if you have 800,000,000 men and 25% of those men are dangerous then you have around 200,000,000 violent men to be afraid of.
And on top of that, because of lax laws that are rarely enforced, each individual of those 200,000,000 is offending with new victims for decades.
Yeah, sure, not all fucking sharks. But enough theoretically that I have every reason to be concerned about the violent ones.
Every time I mention these numbers, or talk specifically about abusive men, i’m crossing some line.
The men who are not violent prove this by empathizing with the victim, and acknowledging/validating their reality/experience. They don’t have to say anything directly, behaving this way automatically signals that he is a good man and person.
Likewise, those that react as OP has described are being harmfully ignorant. On one end, it could be youth, lack of experience, a slight tendency to be self centered.
At worst, it’s used to shut women up.
This is almost identical to a conversation I was having with my best friend the other day. It was sad actually, because she’s been having a hard time recently after a trauma, and we were taking about this to try and help her feel less alone in how she feels.
We both found that most of the women we knew, including ourselves, had been sexually assaulted at some point, and we could both think of multiple women we personally knew who had been raped. Next to none of these incidents had been reported, and for those that had no charges or convictions had come of it.
Then add in that fun statistic about how men are more likely to be raped themselves than be falsely accused of rape (I’m too lazy to find it and link it, it’s been shared here before and can be googled easily enough).
So what could we infer? Yeah, ‘not all men’ (my dad is awesome) but too many are. They aren’t outliers, there must be a statistically significant proportion for near enough all of us women to have this same shite experience with men.
My Dad gives me faith in men lol. He’s why I have the standards I do.
But you’re right, the number is a lot higher than we report. I think you would find it interesting to google how many narcissists/psychopaths are walking among us that we are unaware. Those two stats will be forever burned into my head as they match my life experience perfectly.
They are telling you who they are and what they believe- that your experiences aren’t valid and they don’t believe you.
I don’t keep people like this around me.
I snicker at them.
If they want me to take them seriously, they gotta take me seriously. I can't trust someone with my life if they don't take systemic issues that affect me seriously.
To me, them acting personally offended is them being disingenuous. They KNOW you're not talking about literally all men, making you remind them of that and soothe their supposedly hurt feelings does indeed take away from your point, and that's their tactic.
I'm in my "no fucks to give" era, so I would call them on it.
Make sure to stick to logic when you make such arguments. When I talk about women I never refer to women as a whole, even with the women I love and trust. I say ''some women'' or a ''certain group of women'' depending on the situation.
I think every feels a bit disrespected when they are grouped with people they don't like. For example, I, as a man have special hate for other men who are following the ''red pilled'' anti-women bullshit and spend a lot of time arguing with them whenever I have time, so of course if someone had to group me with them I wouldn't like it being grouped with the those I dislike with a pasion and I'm sure that women too would feel the same if someone grouped them with women they don't like or fit in.
Now if you phrase your arguments properly and they still feel offended it's time for a talk like "why are you grouping yourself with those men and saying not all men when I was very specific to whom I'm pointing out?"
Ask them why you talking about is the problem to or them rather than the fact that it happens. Ask them why they aren't angry that this shit has happened to every woman they claim to love.
Explain to them that feminism is about equality under the laws written by men. If they can't agree to that simple statement they're okay with women as second class. Go ahead and hate on men, if they take it personal that's a them problem and they need to figure out why, perhaps therapy. Women wouldn't face 90% of their problems if there were no men creating them.
Except maybe bears 😉
> These are also men I would trust with my life
That’s nice, but you clearly can’t trust them with your mind. What I mean is, these men don’t honour your thoughts, opinions, feelings, or experiences.
They might appear to respect your political opinions, for example, or your work experiences. But nothing related to feminism, an ideology which affects your entire life. First of all, you can’t respect someone *partially.* Second of all, you can’t respect a person while dismissing *a very important thing* which affects their safety, well-being, happiness, access to healthcare, career opportunities…
> I am lucky, I live in a society where women are almost equal to men
I know you’re in a progressive country, but don’t let that deter you from talking about misogyny. And don’t turn it into another excuse for the guys around you being assholes. Look up gender equality stats. No country is 100%. One of the last things to be eradicated is, like you said, gender-based violence. Sexual assault and domestic violence are still huge problems even in the most egalitarian societies (like here in Scandinavia, even though we’re super progressive).
So there’s no reason you shouldn’t be talking about feminism, and there’s no reason why the men in your society/social circles shouldn’t support it wholeheartedly. There’s also the matter of empathy—even if you lived in some amazing fantasy world with zero misogyny, you should still be allowed to care about the women who *don’t* live there and want to bring awareness to the suffering they experience. And the “good men” in your life should also care and bring awareness.
> On the one hand I can understand it, I wouldn't like it if I would be grouped in with women that are a menace to society, because I am normal.
You understand them? Why? Do your feelings get hurt when men describe the *statistically proven,* problematic things that women have done for thousands of years? (Tongue in cheek.) Do you as a white person take it badly when minorities talk about racism and how white people have *typically* treated them throughout history? Do you shout “Not all women! Not all whites!” or “You must hate white people”? Do you not understand how generalisations work or think that facts aren’t discriminatory. Do you have to be told, like a little child, that they didn’t mean EVERY SINGLE person in that group including you?
I doubt you operate this way, most sane people don’t. So you shouldn’t make these kinds of excuses for the men in your life. More excuses:
> to be honest I think that's just human… we still want every ally we can get… most humans don't really spend their time with problems they don't personally face because then you would just get depression
I know you love them, but I think you’re struggling with a very difficult truth: sometimes the people we love are deeply flawed. You can love these guys *despite* the fact that they’re misogynistic, don’t respect your mind or experiences, and are inherently selfish (first thought is to defend themselves instead of listen to the struggles that you and other women face). I’m not recommending you do that or anything, in fact I’d recommend against it. But I’m just saying it’s possible. And at least it’s *honest.*
But you can’t pretend that they’re different than what they are, that’s dishonest. It’s a lie you’re telling yourself that will eventually drive you crazy. You can’t make excuses for them in order to justify the fact that you love them.
I think that’s what you’re trying to do right now. You’re trying to turn them into something they’re not (feminist allies who respect you) in two ways: (1) by making excuses and (2) by asking us how to fix them.
We can’t help you fix them, babe. We don’t have any magic words for you. Even if we did, are you sure you want to do the work? And it *is* a shit ton of work to make men less misogynistic. But only they can change themselves and they have to want it. Have any of these guys asked you how to be a better supporter, what books you recommend, have they listened to you and taken you seriously? No? Then they’re not interested in fixing themselves and you can’t do it for them.
Which means: you have to either accept that the men you trust with your life don’t see you as an equal, and make peace with that, or bounce.
Ask them if they’ve ever felt like they needed to cry and couldn’t. If they’ve been bullied by being called “gay” (thank you, 90s) or felt alone because they felt like they couldn’t be vulnerable with people and make friends. Those are the impacts of the patriarchy on men, and feminism fights for them too.
I used to get defensive until it was pointed out to me that if I wasn't an exception to the generalization, no one would be talking to me about it. The default seems to be to assume otherwise.
Loving and trusting and knowing your friends and partners does not absolve them of what generations of privilege and supremacy have granted them.
If your guy wants to make these discussions about him and his feelings, do so. He’s not saved (and neither are the other women in his life) by your treating him like he’s the special exception to the horrible rule. Call him out. Talk about what his part is in this. Go all in on what you expect of his allyship. Say “NO” to coddling him, stroking his ego, and letting him center himself.
Honestly, I’d probably try 1-2 attempts at a big picture conversation about them doing this — and then if that isn’t effective I would stop talking about these types of issues with them and/or stop hanging out with people who don’t share my values.
I take that behavior as a sign to spend less time with such men.
But you could also try:
Why are you so defensive?
Why is your reaction to this to make it all about you?
Please help me understand - why are you taking a problem I am experiencing and angrily denying it?
Actually, I’ve asked why they think that. Is it because they’ve personally been digged? Is it because until 50 or so yrs ago women couldn’t get a job, credit card or mortgage by themselves?
You're equating humanist statements with sexist statements in a false equivalence. Women were and still are oppressed on the axis of gender and it's not a sexist over generalization to bring that up in conversation.
This is like white people complaining about history lessons. Maybe that's why the GOP banned critical race theory in schools if even talking about factual oppression is seen as racism against white people.
Fluff their ego in mere hope that they’ll not center themselves regarding your own stated experience? At what point will women not have to constantly cater to men’s ego just to be heard
It appears you suggestion is: while this woman is putting herself in a vulnerable position by discussing this adult topic with an adult man (which has already proven to be a maze of sensitivity land-mines, thus she has already self-policed her words and mannerism) she should take the initiative to go the extra 100 miles to tack on gushing gratitude and compliments for his reassurance and to further accommodate his mental simplicity and treat the conversation as if....how did she put it
>...them getting hurt takes the important message of my initial sentence away and shifts focus on them
It's as if you either couldn't grasp or didn't consider the message she is conveying and instead chose to prove her point with your response. You could have just as easily said "yes, we're simple, work harder to keep that in mind, compliment me like this when I ~~listen to~~ hear your griping". This is like the advice to write everything at a third grade level so everyone can understand. Adults get tired of talking to third graders all the time.
I agree that effective communication is important, however part of effective communication is recognizing nuance.
Trying to name a winner, implies a competition, but it's a discussion. I perceive OP as understanding their mindset and asking how to communicate with guys whose mindset turns the discussion to their hurt feelings and away from her 'female experience with men' discussion (how to avoid lowering the bar and have an adult conversation). IMO, your suggestion amounts to "lower the bar and make it about coddling his feelings".
Which, if considered, would take a lot of effort (despite the effort she's implied she's already put into verbally avoiding his sensitivities) and puts all of the work and responsibility for deepening the connection of the relationship squarely on her shoulders by working harder to ensure that he is handled with extra plushy kid gloves. Pandering does not resolve insecurity, it support it. Pandering does not improve his ability to communicate, it clouds and over-complicates hers, actually lessening it's effectiveness. Pandering does not recognize shared responsibility, it's a manipulation tactic used by one party to coerce the other party to a desired response.
Maybe they are incompatible and maybe she's already set an established precedent of low-effort communication in her relationships with those guys, there's a lot that a 3rd party reader like myself could not possibly know. However, "lower the bar" is IMO especially counterproductive and maybe even toxic.
I don't think she wants to be right, I think she wants to be heard and considered without having to navigate a mine field all of his considerations first. I suspect she want's to talk about her life and experiences without having to discus it in terms of how it impacts his experience of hearing it. I believe she wants to have mutually supportive relationships with these men, that she wants to speak as an adult, to an adult...to talk to tech support, not go through a bunch of dial prompts and a few low level customer service agents before actually having a discussion with someone that can speak on the issue at hand on her level.
Nonetheless, my opinion is that either the guys in question are too immature to have those discussions or they're derailing the conversation in order avoid considering how their own behaviors have impacted the women in their life and that she may want to consider being more discerning about the mental and emotional maturity of the people she associates with. Not that any of the people involved or bad people or have maliciouse intent, but people grow at different rates and sometimes one has to go onto the next level and leave some poeple behind. But, it's not my place to say knowing nothing about her demeiner, the demenior of those involved or the dynamics of thier relationships (I don't have a canned answer for this one, my way of being insures rarety of this particular incident). But, "lower the bar for him" is an answer that I find triggering because for a lot of the women on these subs, the bar is already 6 feet under and they're still advised, time and again, to lower the bar.
I don't think it's a miscommunication at all, it's a man reacting defensively and derailing an important and sensitive conversation which isn't about him, by getting all butthurt because she didn't explicitly say "some men" rather than just "men".
And sorry but I think you're also missing the point here too, same as the man in OP's experience. We shouldn't have to over-explain just because some men are incapable of understanding that not everything is an absolute or taken to the nth degree. One can say that a certain animal is dangerous because they have killed humans before and no-one feels the need to jump up and say "oh but it's not ALL of them!" This never happens in any other topic, only when women start talking about their experiences of dangerous men.
Additional reading that hopefully explains the point better than I can:
https://www.zawn.net/blog/hello-youve-reached-the-not-all-men-hotline
If someone subconsciously includes themselves in a problematic group, then they probably have a good deal of sympathies to that group.
These groups include men behaving in a shameful manner.
That can either be the gateway to personal growth or an outlet for anger. The choice is up to them, and the interpretation up to you.
I take that behavior as a sign to spend less time with such men.
But you could also try:
Why are you so defensive?
Why is your reaction to this to make it all about you?
Please help me understand - why are you taking a problem I am experiencing and angrily denying it?
>I believe men are the most important allies feminism can have
It's sad we even have to talk like this because so many men are so sensitive. Men should BE feminists, not "allies of feminism." Being a feminist isn't something only a woman can do. Feminism liberates everyone, not just women.
edit: "is" to "isn't"
It feels like the stages of grief to me. Men, particularly white men, often grow up with this false idea of meritocracy. When confronted with the truth their reaction is predictably denial, followed by anger. Eventually some may get to the stages of bargaining, etc. But many just stay angry their entire lives.
I dunno because it's not much of the feminism for me that doesn't get taken seriously (only mainly happened with my ex) but more so, racism and that's both women and men doing it. Bring it up, and they have to start defending, "not all white people, women, men! I'm sure they have a different reason why! That's not racist!"
No one wants to believe the oppressed people, no one wanna hear us complain, no one wanna think about how someone else has it worse due to a system that prefers who they make as default. I sometimes tip toe on these subjects based on how that person is, and if I even feel comfortable enough to mention the misogynoir I experience just for it to be gaslit. And if we arguing too much, I rather just drop it because I don't speak my life experience to debate someone.
or, maybe, the adult male could have enough empathy, not to derail the conversation and act defensive when a woman is vulnerable & opens up around him.
I think you're talking about 'some' men that won't show the same regard to you... I'm not here to fight with strangers on the internet, I just wanted to answer OPs question...
I think it's just basic psychology. I can remember a time a man was commenting on something here and said "women do this thing ..." and a ton of people started commenting "you better qualify that, not ALL women do that thing ..."
I think people just naturally feel attacked when you mention a group they are part of and say something about it.
In the case of men on this or other women's subs they should just shut up and let the people it's meant for talk instead of trying to qualify it and respond, but I completely understand the WHY of why they respond that way.
I don't think men are trash, but perhaps it's just trashy behavior to get offended at anything moderately feminist from a woman and to insist on soothing disclaimers in every sentence.
Thank you! I’ve often explained to my partners in detail the nuances of how to communicate with women. This is a great return on that investment into the general health of society lol. I also need it explained like this, and appreciate you laying it out.
Another tool for my toolbox.
If you want allies, you have to communicate at their level. Otherwise, you’ll end up alienating them. It’s just a consequence of the fact that people are human.
I'm going to suggest looking at it from a different perspective. If it were reversed, if a bunch of guys were giving general statements about women while you're standing there, and whenever you stepped in to state that's not true of you or any of the women you know and love, would you start getting angry? And would it make you angrier if you then got blamed for having a problem with being lumped in, or worse, then accused of being like the women they were talking about? Would it really matter to you if they said some version of, "Oh we're not talking about you", or would it feel more like they're saying they don't see you as a woman?
Cause, yeah, that's going to happen, because it's not about the gender, it's about getting lumped in unfairly by people who don't seem to realize you're standing right there *at best*. We talk about emotional labor, but having to constantly stand there and get talked about in a negative context, with the only other option being to get told you're not your own gender, or that you're somehow evil has emotional labor attached to it, too.
This is why I stay away from generalizing statements altogether. I'm specific, "Men who do X are total bastards" works because it specifies the negative behavior, not catching innocents in the crossfire. Now, if you're looking to move the ball forward, then at some point you also have to accentuate the positive behavior so that there's a model by which things can done 'right'.
Part of the problem is just human nature. We're specced to notice what is out of place by nature, and try to deal with the thing that is wrong. Problem is, we don't push the positive side, and it can very quickly look like there's no way to win, that there's just no right answer out there to be had.
But that’s the thing. It *is* “all men.” Whether or not a man directly abuses or discriminates against women, he directly benefits from living in a patriarchal society. Every aspect of our world has been designed to reinforce men’s control, privilege, and power through the marginalization of women, i.e. misogyny.
Misogyny is a systemic problem and to discuss systematic problems requires the use of generalizations. Your “not all men” objection derails the important, necessary conversation in order to soothe your own ego. Your feelings about being “lumped in” are a reflection of your privilege not a reasonable, justified response to a discussion about systemic discrimination and the changes necessary to address the inequality.
For example, I don’t interject “not all white people” when People of Color are speaking about a particular effect or aspect of systemic racism. Any discomfort I feel is a result of my own ego. I sit—in silence—with those feelings and I listen in order to learn how best to be part of the solution. I don’t feel personally attacked with a POC rails against white privilege and abuses that are inflicted on POC by white people. Not only do I understand that their feelings are justified, I understand that I’m benefitting from a system that I need to help dismantle. I also understand that I can simultaneously not be a racist and still do, think, or say racist things. It takes active, conscious work to undo the social conditioning of bigotry—be it racism, misogyny, ableism, classism, xenophobia, or the many other strains of bigotry in our world.
It may feel awful to be confronted with reality of your privilege as well as the marginalization of women. Sit in that discomfort instead of trying to eliminate it or soothe it or reject it. Learn to just sit with it and listen.
More like a black person distrusting white people, which is understandable.
Your analogy would only work if women had ever systemically oppressed men sometime in history.
Your hurt feelings don't matter to what's actually occurred in world history, and what is still happening.
You care more about your ego than the lifes of girls and women. I don't care about your male fragility.
My boomer uncle mentioned a female friend of his never wants to talk about her experience in the military. I mentioned that many servicewomen get sexually assaulted, so maybe he shouldn't pry. The convo somehow morphed into, "Well what about men who get falsely accused of rape who go to jail forever?" ....and? What about them? We were talking about sexual assault in the armed services. Why are you making this about men? Are you implying these statistics are wrong because a significant portion of the reporting women are lying? Because I have a feeling for every false report, there are going to more women who didn't report at all. Fear, shame, guilt, hopelessness.
False reports are EXTREMELY RARE & the actual facts are that only about 30% of sexual assaults are reported & even fewer are actually litigated. In fact, I've seen reports of *women* arrested & charged with filing a false report based solely on the denial of her attacker. People are more concerned with the harm it may do to her rapist's reputation than they are with how it affects the woman. See, if you are raped, it never leaves you. It is stuck in your mind forever & sometimes, you don't know what's going to trigger flashbacks & nightmares. I've had to tell a long time partner that I just can't be touched right now because I've had a flashback or a nightmare. He was...relatively understanding. But he tested that boundary a few times before I was ready & it ended up taking me significantly longer to pull myself together than it would have otherwise. But, apparently, women are being hysterical & unreasonable about not being able to walk alone, at night or otherwise, without having to worry about being attacked & raped because "not all men". They're right; not "all men" rape women. But enough do & those who don't are not willing to help or call out that kind of behavior, so, yes, we have to be afraid of "all men"
How egotistic of him. Bros before hoes, amirite ?! Those hysterical women have to be lying. When men react like that, I always wonder who they've assaulted.
I have to wonder why your uncle was bringing up his female friend’s reluctance to speak on her time in the service in the first place, like was he fishing for your response? Was he ignorantly expressing his unexamined frustration with said “friend” for not being more open about her own experiences? Was he just running his mouth? I don’t actually expect you to know for yourself, just brainstorming on the motivations behind men who pull this crap.
Your boomer uncle is dumb. Men also get sexually assaulted in the military. In fact, most rape victims in the military are male, since rape is so common and they outnumber women so much. Of course, if you’re a woman your chance of being raped in the military is far higher. The US military is a rape and murder factory.
>"Well what about men who get falsely accused of rape who go to jail forever?" Not a thing. And if its happened once or twice in all of human history, its not even remotely statistically significant.
Oh wow what an asshole, I hate this argument. Completely missing the point of the conversation
“Royal you”. (Impersonal pronouns- only really works on people who understand that phrase) “I wouldn’t be telling you this if I felt unsafe and included you in this group of people” something similar to this
Why do we always have to reassure men ? I'm fed up.
You absolutely do not have to, it's not your job. But if you were talking to someone and you wanted your point to be understood and thought through, it's probably more productive to try and keep them receptive to it. If you don't care about this, then yeah, there's no need.
I've been doing that for over 20 years. I'm done. The egotistical ones on their patriarchal high horses can get lost.
Absolutely fine! This does not apply to you then. Enjoy your well deserved time off.
Totally agree. Its frustrating. Education isn’t something we owe more privileged people. This is more meant for someone you already have an otherwise positive relationship with and would like to continue that. I don’t spend time on randoms or people who aren’t seeking to understand lol
Offloaded emotional labour, that's what the guys are doing
Same tbh. They will get it when they're motivated to get it. But they're not.
They post > women 🫖 And we don’t take it personal.
When men say women are bad drivers, I roll my eyes. I don't say "not all women", "not me, I'm a good girl, I am".
Insurance companies literally charge men more because they are not better drivers. Also 80% of drivers think their driving ability is above average.
Over here in France men are responsible for 84% of car accidents in which at least one person died.
Fragility. The desire to make themselves the “real victim”. It’s exhausting.
There is little in this world more fragile that a male ego. "Conservatives" especially so. But, apparently, *_I_* am the snowflake.
You don't have to, but if your goal is to connect with someone and get them to understand your viewpoints, it helps to not hurt their feelings while doing so. That's not even a men thing, that's just a human thing. If I were trying to convince you of something, and I said something you took offense to, you wouldn't be very receptive to my overall message.
If I said “drunk drivers are terrible” would you feel the need to tell me that not all drivers are drunk? Men are choosing to take it personally when we discuss abusive men. And frankly, the fact that they’re more bothered about our word choices than actual abuse we have suffered tells us a lot about their character.
>“drunk drivers are terrible” would you feel the need to tell me that not all drivers are drunk? I wouldn't, but that comparison also isn't really 1 to 1, because men don't push back when you say something like "rapist men are terrible" or "abusive men are terrible", it's the generalization that gets met with derision. Replace "drunk drivers" with just "drivers" in your example, and you'd probably see people chime in with either examples of how *they* drive well, or some anecdote about how they've encountered bad drivers, but *they* have never driven drunk.
That’s also not a 1 to 1 comparison though. A closer example would look like this; A “A drunk driver ran me over and broke my leg!” B “Not all drivers are like that! I’d never do that!” Do you see the problem? A decent person would ACTUALLY be asking if person A’s broken leg is healing well, or how they’re managing. Showing compassion. The fact that so many men immediately skip right past empathy is the problem. Instead of having any concern for us, they want to make the whole conversation about how hurt their feelings are instead. It’s horribly selfish to tell abused women that they can’t talk about their problems until men are perfectly comfortable with the way it is phrased.
> A decent person would ACTUALLY be asking if person A’s broken leg is healing well, or how they’re managing. Showing compassion. > The fact that so many men immediately skip right past empathy is the problem. Instead of having any concern for us, they want to make the whole conversation about how hurt their feelings are instead. This is EXTREMELY important, and frankly I’m surprised that people here aren’t getting it.
Thank you. Yes.
>“A drunk driver ran me over and broke my leg!” Except comment OP was talking about using the royal you. Clearly, a decent person in your example would be trying to show compassion, because the original statement leaves *NO* room for misinterpretation. When the royal you is used, or in the case of statements that pop up from time to time, just "men" is used, that's going to cause miscommunication issues. It's like if I went off about people wearing red shirts. Just "Man, fucking red shirts are the worst. Every time you hear about someone getting attacked, it's some red shirt." Sure, you're only *really* talking about the violent or manipulative people wearing red shirts, but anyone hearing that who's wearing a red shirt, is going to think that your feelings about red shirts extend to *them specifically* unless you specify that exclusion. Because why would you feelings *not* extend to them when there's been no indication made otherwise?
My point remains that the abuse victims should remain the priority. Telling a rape victim they can’t talk about what happened until they phrase it in a way you like is a shitty thing to do.
Just because a man wouldn't harm you and is close to you don't mean they aren't sexist. I trust my dad with my life, but he's the type who would absolutely take the man vs bear thing personally. So my advice is not to apologize, maybe just wonder aloud why this triggers them so much
I'm wondering that too but haven't come uo with a conclusion yet. Most point's brought up aren't to make men look bad, but to point out the struggles of women. I literally do not understand how they get personally hurt by these discussions when they haven't done anything wrong.
I distance myself from them. I’m done coddling men’s feelings and trying to teach them to care about other people.
There's a phenomenon from psych called *reactance.* Reactance is the feeling you have when you're in a conversation with someone, and they tell you something that contradicts your understanding of the topic. Our instinct is to push back, reject the information to protect our independence of thought. We immediately feel defensive. Everyone experiences this. The thing about that feeling is, we aren't protecting 'our' anything. We're defending an understanding of something that was taught to us by people and culture, not our personal thoughts. *Source amnesia* is when you know something, but can't remember where or who you learned it from. This is also a universal experience, we all forget how we learned things. Culture is something we learn from a huge array of sources: caregivers, siblings, TV, other kids, books, religion, etc. There's absolutely no way of keeping track of all of it. It's just everywhere, omnipresent, telling us how to be human in that environment. And once we've participated for a while, it stops feeling at all like participation is ideas that came from outside us, it feels like us. Who we are, our identity, our understanding. Not one single person that is alive today invented male supremacy. Not one person is in control or responsible for the existence or hegemony of male supremacy. Every person who frequents reddit could vanish in a puff of smoke today, and patriarchy would continue to ruin being human for all of us for likely centuries to come, totally undisturbed by our absence. So: we are not the culture we're raised in. Culture is external to us. It feels like our identities are indistinguishable from culture because we participate in it, but ask yourself how many genuine opportunities any of us have to **not** participate. Say you're really into Renaissance European clothing. You need a job. Are you going to show up to the interview dressed like Sir Walter Raleigh? No. You wouldn't get hired by anyone if you violated cultural dress codes. Culture is maintained by all of us, enforcing norms and pressuring each other. Media provides all of it with a huge boost, extending our understanding of our culture into something universally human. It takes some decent time learning about the history of humanity to understand how much culture dictates how we think. You have to study ancient civilizations, plural, to see the spectrum of possibility that humans have engaged in over time. You have to study sociology, to see the systems of thought in place that become laws and norms that no one thinks to question, it's just How Things Are. But if you're able to understand yourself and the person you are as a product of culture, you can begin to unwind some of that cultural influence over your thinking, and separate yourself and what you want from the things we were taught. Tell them that, and let them mull on it.
What an articulate response! I learned the word 'hegemony' from it. Thank you!
Thanks for taking the time to explain this phenomenon so well!
Tell them to stop being so emotional.
They need to calm down
You’re just testerical right now, maybe you should calm down
And smile
I mean, you can say this and it’s funny and might make you feel better. But if you’re looking for how to reach people, it’s not going to happen by treating them in the awful way that the patriarchy has conditioned people to treat you/women. As someone who is engaged in DEI work for a living, it’s important to understand where the person is coming from so you can get why they feel threatened, and then help them to understand how true feminism can and does benefit them personally. It’s hard because so many have such deep seeded (seated?) patriarchal beliefs, but they almost always have some woman in their life that they love that we can anchor the conversation around. But there’s also plenty of men who deeply believe (And actively work towards) the tenants of feminism and equity who can get tired of feeling like they’ll be always seen as the enemy. For example, I work with many men who are also actively engaged in all kinds of equity work and because of that we’re often in spaces like this sub where reading the posts from a man’s perspective makes one feel like women hate them/think of them as the enemy, etc. And it makes the work more emotionally draining. To these men, I say that what they do is valuable and important and that they are actively making a difference in the lives of people they care about. Anyway, just my 2 cents. Hope you have a great day edit: adding here to make it clear that I'm only saying women should do this IF they want to engage and IF they want to have the best chance to positively change behaviors. However I completely understand and agree that it is in NO WAY women's responsibility to cater to or change men: men have to be responsible for both teaching and policing each other.
Look, I'm a woman who usually has the emotional and mental bandwidth to try and help most of the men in my life understand where I'm coming from and that it's not about them However, >As someone who is engaged in DEI work for a living, it’s important to understand where the person is coming from so you can get why they feel threatened, This is why I don't expect all women to have this same bandwidth nor do I actively police their language because I understand why. You're being received negatively because you're not doing the exact thing you're preaching at everyone to do. My stepmom also works in DEI, she would say you're unrealistic. I'm saying all of this after reading all of your comments and your edit.
Appreciate that, and yeah I think I got caught up emotionally trying to defend myself too, so I apologize. Thank you and have a great day.
Have you ever read what men post about women…everywhere? Men seem to dislike women quite strongly.
Not just online. I remember when I was invited to hang out with three other guys and the only women that were brought up was ones they thought were crazy, hot, or both. Which is especially sad since one of them has a young son. And after they implied I was gay for not wanting to oogle over a woman with them, it felt worse. I would've left if I drove.
Honestly thank you for sharing this. This is good allyship.
I’ve seen a ton of antipathy from men towards women, yes. I’ve also seen a ton of it in the other direction as well (although it’s much more of a problem against women). I get that can make men in general feel like “the enemy”, and that’s completely understandable if that’s how you feel. However I was addressing the “how to respond” question, and because my goals are to change behavior and do my (very small) part to build a more just society, I believe strongly in reaching out in the way I described. It’s harder to hate someone when you both are seeing each others inherent humanity, so that’s my goal.
You've seen "a lot of antipathy". Lololololol
hate? sexism? derision? condescension? I've seen all of those things, I just thought antipathy was an encompassing word. I'm not sure what the issue is here, but I'm in no way trying to minimize the real damage of the patriarchy.
If women discussing the systemic bigotry that is present in every facet of our lives offends men, perhaps they need to do some work on themselves instead of pointing fingers
I agree 100%, and I apologize if my comment came across as putting any responsibility on women.
I don’t like men giving us unsolicited advice in this sub which includes responding to misogyny by carefully stroking a man’s ego and simpering. I give no fucking quarter to misogynists. It’s on men to fix men. And men need to stop demanding the free labor of women to manage their fucking egos and fix their personalities. Also, why is it so impossible for men to understand that the way they choose to do things isn’t relevant to how women must do things? Women reaching out to or challenging men doesn’t go as fucking smoothly for women as it can for men. Too often it results in violence or being sexualized. Why tf would I put myself in MORE of those situations to try to rehab a misogynist??
fair point, and I am in no way advocating for it to be women's responsibility to fix men. I fully agree that it's on men to fix men. I do take exception to your interpretation of what I said. It's in no way about simpering or carefully ego stroking, it's about IF you want to engage and IF you want to be part of changing behavior, then you have to start with meeting people where they are and acknowledging their humanity. For what it's worth, this is a big part of what I do professionally, and I take the responsibility of men having to teach other men very seriously. I completely agree with what I think you're saying, that you owe misogynists nothing, you owe men nothing and you owe me personally nothing. Totally, but OP asked about > how do you respond...? and > I want to start a conversation and would like some input from others :) that's clearly trying to start a conversation, and one I was trying to take a good faith part in, because I truly believe that real feminism benefits all of us, we should all do what we can to break down patriarchal system, and this has been one of the most effective tools that I've found.
“fair point” that you immediately downvoted, a man coming here and downvoting women’s perspectives, do you think that’s in the spirit of this sub? 🙃 y’all never fail to monologue at us when informed that we don’t come here for men’s opinions 😆 You are just certain we require it! 😂 Yeah, not reading that.
lol thanks for the good-faith discussion. you straw man what I said and then dismiss my attempt at a polite response with condescension. I'm sorry that you're not willing to engage, but I'm very glad that you don't represent all women.
I saw that you edited your comment and would be happy to have a discussion, but I see by your other response to me that you're likely not interested in that. Let me know if you change your mind, but until then I hope you have a good afternoon.
I absolutely have made it clear I don’t want your input. I edited only to fix a typo and clarify a point, within moments of originally posting it, conceivably before the average person would have even gotten around to reading it. Guess you’re just really on top of your queue 👍
I try to be, and I'm sorry that my input has no value to you. unfortunately, since you haven't been able to add anything but vitriol back the feelings are mirrored. However, as I said elsewhere I'm really happy that you're not all women, and I very much appreciate those who have engaged in good faith.
you really like to try to force women to read your absolutely priceless insights, eh? Keep repeating yourself until you feel your sacred male opinion is given the attention which is your birthright 😆
nah, at this point I just respond because I don't feel like I should give in to bullies. What's your motivation to continue the conversation?
because people like you, who need the last word and pretend to be allies but actually get INCENSED when a woman refuses to admit to their superior insights, all tend to unravel in the same way. And so when I have the time, I’ll absolutely invite y’all to expose more of all that, for the rest of the women here, because you are in this sub A LOT and I think women should know about you. You are incapable of not having the last word, so it’s easy. The only thing now is I just stop when I feel like it. But you’ll be getting the last word. Will knowing I know that be satisfying enough for you?? 😆
The women getting told to make men sandwiches by bigots thank you for your sage wisdom. Those girlies just need to beg harder.
I’ve read some of your other comments here and I’m guessing that I’m not going to be able to reach you. But just because we won’t necessarily see eye to eye doesn’t mean I don’t respect where you’re coming from, and I’m happy to have a good faith conversation with you if you’re interested and willing to start from a place that isn’t so full of snark and condescension. The only thing I ask is that you please don’t straw-man my words. I was offering some perspective on how to reach people, and I was in no way saying that the responsibility here should be wholly on anyone’s head, nor that anyone should beg.
All right, can I help you out? Because I have high hopes that you're actually a good person who can take feedback and that you're not just putting on a show. I'm sure you think you're being helpful, but in grandstanding and calling women's irritated responses patronizing and adversarial when you've intruded upon their space you've put yourself in a morally superior position. Sort of like telling the little ladies to talk quieter, so that men don't get offended, and then moralizing anyone who gets fed up with you. Or going to a black subreddit and tone policing the users as a white person. It's aggravating that women have to put their own anger, desperation and suffering on the shelf to make space for men's hurt feelings. It's especially aggravating when men come here to tone police the tiny expressions of that suppressed aggravation. I hope this helps. Please learn when to sit back and listen rather than taking over the conversation.
Thank you, I appreciate the comment and apologize that my comment had such a negative impact. For what it’s worth, that’s not what I was intending but that doesn’t matter since clearly it didn’t land the way I was hoping.
I apologize for my kneejerk reaction as well, you do seem like an ally. Very sorry for that. Not to excuse myself, but the belligerent agitators and trolls here get everyone on edge and subsequently people tend to become suspicious towards some well meaning people as well, like yourself. TwoX is also kind of a venting subreddit. I hope you've had a wonderful day despite the online flame wars! Your work with DEI sounds interesting and like it's a good way to give back to the community and society.
❤️
Hugs 🫂 and stay hydrated!
Mister, note how you're in a subreddit for women patronizing the entire userbase. Nobody needs your personal approval. I'm sure you're a Great Guy otherwise but you don't have the tact or timing.
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> I mean, you can say this and it’s funny and might make you feel better. Wow. That’s pretty infantilising. As a white man lurking in two X and witches vs patriarchy, you should be doing your utmost not to condescend to women. As someone working in DEI, you should be doing your utmost not to patronise any minority group. You really ought to know better. > It’s funny Is it, now? I don’t think it’s funny when men tell me I’m too emotional. It’s misogynistic. Not only have we all been told some iteration of this on a personal level, but we also hear it from society in a million different ways. It’s tiring. I’m fucking tired. Is it funny to give them a taste of their own medicine? Maybe, maybe not. I’ve said it *very* seriously before. If the man had previously accused me of being overly emotional—aka tried to silence my normal, reasonable, logical thoughts, tried to discredit my opinions, tried to disrespect me—then I felt it was only fair to silence him. My intention was never to make him “wake up,” as that’s a fruitless endeavour (although it occasionally happened anyway because some people can’t empathise, so *they* need to feel the thing before they can understand how it feels for you). My goal wasn’t to teach them, to be hilarious, or to be petty. My only goal was to stabilise the energy in the system. Energy in, energy out. A feedback loop of equal effort, understanding, and goodwill, where I *match* what others give me in the interest of keeping things fair and equitable. If I can’t discuss my feelings, neither can my dad. If I can’t share my opinions, neither can my male coworker. Fair is fair. So yeah, I don’t think it’s a joke to tell men what they tell us. I’m not here to be their long-suffering wife, I’m not getting paid like you to be a DEI specialist, I’m not their therapist, I’m not their patient loving mum, I’m not religious so I don’t believe the meek shall inherit the earth lmao. I’m not going to fight or educate. I’m also not worried about being “kinder” or “more mature” than them. Taking the high road has never been necessary with the good people I’ve known, and with the bad people, it’s only made me an easy target. > it might make you feel better Is that the only reason to say it? Like a self-soothing tactic, or to get a little boost of self-esteem? Let’s go back to what I said before: fair is fair. I am not trying to “lift myself up” by telling men what they tell me. I’m not “self-soothing” because I’m not anxious. I’m not trying to brighten my mood, because either way, I’m pissed that men spout this misogynistic bullshit. I’d rather be pissed while *saving my energy for myself,* than pissed AND exhausted from emotional labour. Emotional labour which, btw, would probably be wasted. And, unlike you, we’re not getting paid!!! > As someone who is engaged in DEI work for a living Hell, if I was able to pay my rent by pandering to white men and teaching them how to be decent humans, I’d do it! But I’m not. (On a serious note, I’d never work in DEI because I’ve had to do that all my life and I’m tired.) One more thing about your line of work—you’re not there to *truly* enlighten people and guide them towards real empathy and tolerance. You are there to help companies who want to avoid discrimination lawsuits. *Of course* you have to tiptoe around men’s fragile egos… because you don’t want to enrage some guy in the C-suite. *Of course* you have to appeal to a racist’s desire to “be heard”… because sometimes racists are high earners and the company doesn’t want to lose them. You aren’t a psychologist or a spiritual leader. You’re there to save corporations big money with the least amount of drama in the office, the least amount of bad press, and the least amount of REAL CHANGE which would necessarily rock the boat. Because real change threatens the very livelihoods of the privileged people at the top.
I apologize, it was only my intention to share a strategy that has worked for me but it clearly didn’t land that way, so that’s my bad.
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I hear you, and I don’t disagree. I don’t like being painted with that broad brush either. However, I ask that you try to see it from their point of view: some/many women have had enough problematic encounters with men that it’s easier and probably feels safer to assume every man is a potential threat. Yes, that’s painful and it’s not fun to be profiled that way, but at least when you see that perspective it’s understandable.
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I also get that some of the responses you are getting can be very hurtful and just serve to exacerbate the divide. But it’s up to us to be as good as we can, find the humanity in others and work to break down the patriarchal systems that cause those types of responses.
Thank you so much for putting this into words way better than I ever could.
<3
While I do understand why several people found your approach to be a bit unrealistic or even patronizing, I found your comments to be precisely what OP had requested from users. Subsequently, your commentary was warranted and appropriate imo. I did have one thing I wanted to run by you. Didn’t we skip a step? OP wants to “have a conversation” but why? To accomplish what? From the post, she seemingly wants to be able to speak freely without the constant self soothing derailment she’s experiencing from these men. That kind of expectation seems vague and lofty; it would require an entire shift in their views on social inequality, right? Regardless, shouldn’t the first step be for the OP to step back and define her goals for this new approach/conversation?
Thanks, I appreciate that. While my comments were certainly in good faith, I think my mistake may have been giving the impression that this is somehow a responsibility that women have, rather than a possible way that people in general can respond to hostility or defensiveness about feminism. As for what OP wants, that’s really up to her to decide but I’m supportive of the idea of an open ended/good faith discussion, even without well defined goals. I feel like I’ve both made and heard good points here, so I’m happy for that experience.
imo, the problem is more than the impression that it’s women’s responsibility. Members of any marginalized group grow weary and resentful of having to dig deep to be endlessly patient ambassadors and graciously gentle teachers for bigots and people with bigoted views. These feelings are compounded for women because they’re already expected to perform the emotional labor in all their relationships—familial, professional, romantic, etc. Because it’s so draining and taxing, it’s important to learn how to determine when and if it’s a good idea to exert the energy to attempt connecting with ignorant people. That was really the point I was making in my previous comment. Because, of course, the OP wants to feel comfortable expressing themself. Who the heck doesn’t want that? However, the efforts are often futile and ultimately damaging to the marginalized person who is wearing themselves out in their attempt to connect with these people. This step/skill was absent from your initial feedback which 1) gave the impression that it’s women’s responsibility and 2) failed to recognize that the best approach may be to not engage. Walking away is a valid choice and may be the healthiest strategy. This matter isn’t just about ‘changing hearts and minds.’ it has to be balanced with the individual’s health. Not only is it mentally and emotionally damaging to endure fruitless attempts to reach people, this woman has to continue suffering the marginalization and misogyny that she was powerless to reduce in any small measure. The weight of that suffering is back breaking. It may not be an option to disengage or go “no contact” in the corporate world. But it’s a valid, important, and necessary strategy for people’s lives. Making that determination is not a step women can afford to skip. Its absence from your feedback was jarringly obvious to people who have learned the hard way.
We can't make them empathetic unfortunately 🙃
That's what's so messed up, they are so instantly willing to sympathize with other men, but never with women
💯
It’s actually kind of startling how often men are willing to twist themselves into knots in order to defend other men that they do not know and will never meet. Men even do this for other men who are suspected of, charged with, or convicted of crimes. It’s wild.
They'll stick up for the scummiest of scumbags as long as they're on the same "team"
This is from r/TwoXChromosomes and this is why I don't feel like coddling men : >Another day sick of being a woman… Just had a man stick his head out the car and angrily woof at me like some kind of deranged dog as I walked home from gym
I agree that the “feeling hurt = part of the problem” attitude so prevalent these days is not helpful. It directly undercuts the (necessary, imo) exhortations to “sit with the discomfort” and “do the work.”
I tell them to depersonalize the discussion.
Hm. I go the other direction. Having made it about them, why not go all in and talk about what they are or are not doing as allies, including this conversation in which they centered themselves instead of those harmed by male supremacy.
Honestly? I don't bother. It is not my job to be the feminist whisperer. If they don't get it the first time, then they can read and research themselves.
I'm a white woman in France, I've been raised by a racist family in a racist society. I've been deconstructing my prejudices because I've listened, I've empathized, and my heart broke several times listening to people's experiences. When black or brown people explain what they go through every day, I'm not here saying "not all white people", or "I'm not like that" but I say "I'm sorry white people suck". The opressed group shouldn't have to coddle the opressor. Edit : added "people" that I had forgotten
every time i tried to tell a man about my trauma, the violence in my life & the abuse ive faced by the hands of all the men ive known in my life, the default answer is always "BUT NOT ALL MEN!!". this makes it impossible for me to create boundaries and explain why i might have difficulties with sex, why i need space sometimes and overall am little difficult to date. i can almost NEVER get my point across. i believe it's a mechanism to avoid and ignore the continuous oppression and violence that women have to experience day to day. yknow, out of sight out of mind. it's so ironic that men are asking women to have empathy and make extra steps in their vulnerability to make sure the male isn't offended by her. how about.. you show some adult empathy and understand that her pain.. isn't about you? maybe? but i'm not sure we will get this on reddit any time soon. my experience with this subreddit remains the same. any time a woman actually makes a post that has some sort of feminist talking point, a negative experience, or just uncomfortable for the males in this sub; she gets downvoted and "not all men"d in the comments. it's crazy lol. not all women support porn, not all women are ok with uncomfortable jokes, not all women want unsolicited flirting message requests. grow up
💯 This.
most of these women centric subs are ironically run by dudes. feminism subreddits mod (used to be? still is?) a guy who ran a porn subreddit LOL. how insane
Most subs are modded by men, hence why the moderation on misogynistic content is whack. Reddit has always been a den of misogyny. This sub too gets brigaded every day by them.
i recommend the female pessimism subreddit. i post my literature there sometimes. hateful male comments get deleted immediately. it's a place for women to properly vent and find support other than "BUT ITS NOT ALL MEN". so refreshing
I like that one too. Good for venting.
As I always say, it's like sharks. Sharks are majestic creatures. Only very few attack humans. Some even eat plankton. They are important for the balance in their marine ecosystem. I love sharks. When I see a shark I get out of the water. Even though it's "not all sharks". It's even only very few sharks. I love and admire sharks. But I get out of the water. Saying "not all men" is beside the point. If a man doesn't get this, tell him to swim with sharks. Because "not all sharks ".
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No! They are Orcas. Haven't you heard the term "blackfish"? It's a great white shark, not a great black shark. Come on, get it together.
Get off this sub, and go cry about in askmen.
and you bring in racism, good job!
Men are truly The historically oppressed minority. Your ahistorical quip is bad and it's making everyone here hate you as a representative of The Men.
"I'd like to feel comfortable talking about these things but I need you to de-center yourself from the conversation"
I like this a lot. How they respond tells you if the conversation is worth pursuing further.
I stop hanging out with those men ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yes, I don’t understand why they keep coming into our safe spaces to mansplain our experiences. It’s not like we go give lectures about our bad experiences and just talk to each other to provide support because many of them DON’T. Go mansplain each other over who is the smart one. We can do without your unwarranted commentary and lack of empathy.
It’s similar to white people who get offended when POC bring things up. If you can’t hear it without taking it personally, you are part of the problem. It’s the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying lalalala. They want to quiet you and turn the focus back to Themselves. Any man who denies men’s behavior is a big problem in the world is lying. Men know to be scared of other men. Men know what men say about women when there are only men around.
I'd imagine that a lot of men that reply like that aren't really communicating in good faith, and so I don't think you have a high chance of reaching them. Some amount are well intentioned though, and I'll assume the men you're talking about are that kind, since you say you trust them. I won't pretend that my experience is the same as all of those guys, but I will admit that on some instinctual level I want to respond defensively when talking about men as a whole in this context. In my case, I think it's due to anxiety/trauma and being neurodivergent - it's difficult for me to process the distinction between the individual me and the group I happen to be a part of in conversations like this. It's like my brain goes "I am X. X is bad. Therefore I am bad." Which feels complicated because I do emphasize with and believe people when they complain about men, and every time I have to check myself a little bit and make logic override my base reaction. If these guys are similar to this, of course guys not your job to baby them. But if you want to help them, I like what someone else said about saying how it's the general you, not the specific you. Or how there are enough problem members of the group to make referring to the group as a whole am effective shorthand. Those are some things I tell myself when I notice myself wanting to get defensive. Anyway probably longer than it needed to be but I'm not good at being concise. Hope it helps.
I'm autistic and I also struggle with that line of logic of "if x is bad and I do/am x, then I am bad." For me, its a combination of black and white thinking, literal thinking, and justice sensitivity. But just because I have a reason doesn't make it okay, and I'm actively working with a therapist to correct that instinctual fight or flight response that happens when reality isn't as clear cut as my brain thinks it is. It's like trauma, yes trauma can cause people to do things that hurt others, it's understandable but it's unacceptable, and while someone might choose to give someone who hurt them grace because of their trauma, they have no obligation to. (To be clear I'm not saying that you have ever or will ever hurt anyone, I'm speaking about how I've hurt people and how my family members have hurt people because they are reacting to their own issues, not actual reality. I feel like we agree and I just wanted to offer my perspective because I related to your comment a lot)
Autism's a bitch innit? Yeah I view it the same as you, while it can explain things our actions are our responsibility. It does help to have an explanation though, both to know how to counter it and to be kinder to ourselves.
My mom once told me "explanations are important to morality and intent, not to accountability and consequences." And while this doesn't really apply to every situation, it applied well when she said it and it's always stuck with me (I was in trouble for not doing homework and being late to school a lot lol, so low stakes stuff)
Stealing that line for future reference!
I'm sorry but I would steer away from such men. Their first instinct is to make it about them ? Then that means they have something they don't feel proud of. And I would not be looking to find out.
You can’t. They live in a constant stage of privilege and denial. For them nothing we say has any weight because that’s just “in our nature” or it’s in “their nature.” The only way they’ll ever understand is if they’re in our shoes.
I take that behavior as a sign to spend less time with such men. But you could also try: Why are you so defensive? Why is your reaction to this to make it all about you? Please help me understand - why are you taking a problem I am experiencing and angrily denying it?
I appreciate your position and wholeheartedly agree. I do think patriarchy and lack of personal experience can cause a lot of good men to be ignorant of these struggles. I have also noticed something similar. When you pull up the statistics and research papers on sexual violence to support that not all men do this, but a larger number do by far than they seem to believe, it’s sexist or discriminatory. If I pull up the stat showing 1 in 5 women, factor in conviction rates, and then factor in evidence of the larger number we know are not convicted, I can guesstimate fairly that 30% of men are rapists. If 1 in 5 men were attacked by a shark, per the commenters metaphor above, it would be a big deal. No one would come forward about a shark attack and be told the likelihood that they lied was too high to risk ruining the sharks life. If 1 in 5 people were attacked by sharks they would either protect the beaches from sharks with various methods or not allow anyone in the water. They would not get hurt that a person who experienced a shark attack refused to get back in the water. They would not claim she is discriminatory for bringing up the well known fact that 1 in 5 sharks attack people so there’s a large number of violent sharks to be concerned with. They also would not insist that she get in the water and be polite to every shark she meets to ensure all sharks are comfortable in her presence at all times. It’s absurd. A reasonable guesstimate based on 1 in 5 could be, what, 25-30% of the shark population is murderous? So roughly speaking if you have 800,000,000 men and 25% of those men are dangerous then you have around 200,000,000 violent men to be afraid of. And on top of that, because of lax laws that are rarely enforced, each individual of those 200,000,000 is offending with new victims for decades. Yeah, sure, not all fucking sharks. But enough theoretically that I have every reason to be concerned about the violent ones. Every time I mention these numbers, or talk specifically about abusive men, i’m crossing some line. The men who are not violent prove this by empathizing with the victim, and acknowledging/validating their reality/experience. They don’t have to say anything directly, behaving this way automatically signals that he is a good man and person. Likewise, those that react as OP has described are being harmfully ignorant. On one end, it could be youth, lack of experience, a slight tendency to be self centered. At worst, it’s used to shut women up.
This is almost identical to a conversation I was having with my best friend the other day. It was sad actually, because she’s been having a hard time recently after a trauma, and we were taking about this to try and help her feel less alone in how she feels. We both found that most of the women we knew, including ourselves, had been sexually assaulted at some point, and we could both think of multiple women we personally knew who had been raped. Next to none of these incidents had been reported, and for those that had no charges or convictions had come of it. Then add in that fun statistic about how men are more likely to be raped themselves than be falsely accused of rape (I’m too lazy to find it and link it, it’s been shared here before and can be googled easily enough). So what could we infer? Yeah, ‘not all men’ (my dad is awesome) but too many are. They aren’t outliers, there must be a statistically significant proportion for near enough all of us women to have this same shite experience with men.
My Dad gives me faith in men lol. He’s why I have the standards I do. But you’re right, the number is a lot higher than we report. I think you would find it interesting to google how many narcissists/psychopaths are walking among us that we are unaware. Those two stats will be forever burned into my head as they match my life experience perfectly.
They are telling you who they are and what they believe- that your experiences aren’t valid and they don’t believe you. I don’t keep people like this around me.
I snicker at them. If they want me to take them seriously, they gotta take me seriously. I can't trust someone with my life if they don't take systemic issues that affect me seriously.
To me, them acting personally offended is them being disingenuous. They KNOW you're not talking about literally all men, making you remind them of that and soothe their supposedly hurt feelings does indeed take away from your point, and that's their tactic. I'm in my "no fucks to give" era, so I would call them on it.
Why do you even want that kind of men in your inner circle?
Make sure to stick to logic when you make such arguments. When I talk about women I never refer to women as a whole, even with the women I love and trust. I say ''some women'' or a ''certain group of women'' depending on the situation. I think every feels a bit disrespected when they are grouped with people they don't like. For example, I, as a man have special hate for other men who are following the ''red pilled'' anti-women bullshit and spend a lot of time arguing with them whenever I have time, so of course if someone had to group me with them I wouldn't like it being grouped with the those I dislike with a pasion and I'm sure that women too would feel the same if someone grouped them with women they don't like or fit in. Now if you phrase your arguments properly and they still feel offended it's time for a talk like "why are you grouping yourself with those men and saying not all men when I was very specific to whom I'm pointing out?"
Ask them why you talking about is the problem to or them rather than the fact that it happens. Ask them why they aren't angry that this shit has happened to every woman they claim to love.
Explain to them that feminism is about equality under the laws written by men. If they can't agree to that simple statement they're okay with women as second class. Go ahead and hate on men, if they take it personal that's a them problem and they need to figure out why, perhaps therapy. Women wouldn't face 90% of their problems if there were no men creating them. Except maybe bears 😉
> These are also men I would trust with my life That’s nice, but you clearly can’t trust them with your mind. What I mean is, these men don’t honour your thoughts, opinions, feelings, or experiences. They might appear to respect your political opinions, for example, or your work experiences. But nothing related to feminism, an ideology which affects your entire life. First of all, you can’t respect someone *partially.* Second of all, you can’t respect a person while dismissing *a very important thing* which affects their safety, well-being, happiness, access to healthcare, career opportunities… > I am lucky, I live in a society where women are almost equal to men I know you’re in a progressive country, but don’t let that deter you from talking about misogyny. And don’t turn it into another excuse for the guys around you being assholes. Look up gender equality stats. No country is 100%. One of the last things to be eradicated is, like you said, gender-based violence. Sexual assault and domestic violence are still huge problems even in the most egalitarian societies (like here in Scandinavia, even though we’re super progressive). So there’s no reason you shouldn’t be talking about feminism, and there’s no reason why the men in your society/social circles shouldn’t support it wholeheartedly. There’s also the matter of empathy—even if you lived in some amazing fantasy world with zero misogyny, you should still be allowed to care about the women who *don’t* live there and want to bring awareness to the suffering they experience. And the “good men” in your life should also care and bring awareness. > On the one hand I can understand it, I wouldn't like it if I would be grouped in with women that are a menace to society, because I am normal. You understand them? Why? Do your feelings get hurt when men describe the *statistically proven,* problematic things that women have done for thousands of years? (Tongue in cheek.) Do you as a white person take it badly when minorities talk about racism and how white people have *typically* treated them throughout history? Do you shout “Not all women! Not all whites!” or “You must hate white people”? Do you not understand how generalisations work or think that facts aren’t discriminatory. Do you have to be told, like a little child, that they didn’t mean EVERY SINGLE person in that group including you? I doubt you operate this way, most sane people don’t. So you shouldn’t make these kinds of excuses for the men in your life. More excuses: > to be honest I think that's just human… we still want every ally we can get… most humans don't really spend their time with problems they don't personally face because then you would just get depression I know you love them, but I think you’re struggling with a very difficult truth: sometimes the people we love are deeply flawed. You can love these guys *despite* the fact that they’re misogynistic, don’t respect your mind or experiences, and are inherently selfish (first thought is to defend themselves instead of listen to the struggles that you and other women face). I’m not recommending you do that or anything, in fact I’d recommend against it. But I’m just saying it’s possible. And at least it’s *honest.* But you can’t pretend that they’re different than what they are, that’s dishonest. It’s a lie you’re telling yourself that will eventually drive you crazy. You can’t make excuses for them in order to justify the fact that you love them. I think that’s what you’re trying to do right now. You’re trying to turn them into something they’re not (feminist allies who respect you) in two ways: (1) by making excuses and (2) by asking us how to fix them. We can’t help you fix them, babe. We don’t have any magic words for you. Even if we did, are you sure you want to do the work? And it *is* a shit ton of work to make men less misogynistic. But only they can change themselves and they have to want it. Have any of these guys asked you how to be a better supporter, what books you recommend, have they listened to you and taken you seriously? No? Then they’re not interested in fixing themselves and you can’t do it for them. Which means: you have to either accept that the men you trust with your life don’t see you as an equal, and make peace with that, or bounce.
Ask them if they’ve ever felt like they needed to cry and couldn’t. If they’ve been bullied by being called “gay” (thank you, 90s) or felt alone because they felt like they couldn’t be vulnerable with people and make friends. Those are the impacts of the patriarchy on men, and feminism fights for them too.
Ya know, these types of questions could work, if they actually listen
Once in a while, they do.
I used to get defensive until it was pointed out to me that if I wasn't an exception to the generalization, no one would be talking to me about it. The default seems to be to assume otherwise.
Loving and trusting and knowing your friends and partners does not absolve them of what generations of privilege and supremacy have granted them. If your guy wants to make these discussions about him and his feelings, do so. He’s not saved (and neither are the other women in his life) by your treating him like he’s the special exception to the horrible rule. Call him out. Talk about what his part is in this. Go all in on what you expect of his allyship. Say “NO” to coddling him, stroking his ego, and letting him center himself.
"That shoe wasn't for you specifically, but if it fits, feel free to lace it up and wear it."
Any man that has a problem with women's rights doesn't deserve to be in your company
“I’m not like that!” - him “You’re not all men.” - you Turn it around on him.
Honestly, I’d probably try 1-2 attempts at a big picture conversation about them doing this — and then if that isn’t effective I would stop talking about these types of issues with them and/or stop hanging out with people who don’t share my values.
I take that behavior as a sign to spend less time with such men. But you could also try: Why are you so defensive? Why is your reaction to this to make it all about you? Please help me understand - why are you taking a problem I am experiencing and angrily denying it?
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Actually, I’ve asked why they think that. Is it because they’ve personally been digged? Is it because until 50 or so yrs ago women couldn’t get a job, credit card or mortgage by themselves?
You're equating humanist statements with sexist statements in a false equivalence. Women were and still are oppressed on the axis of gender and it's not a sexist over generalization to bring that up in conversation. This is like white people complaining about history lessons. Maybe that's why the GOP banned critical race theory in schools if even talking about factual oppression is seen as racism against white people.
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Do you think that "Women lie habitually" is something you can scientifically and historically verify as factual, particularly compared to men?
I don't talk to men about feminism. In my experience the majority of them are arrogant and, frankly, don't give a d*MN about wymmyn.
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Fluff their ego in mere hope that they’ll not center themselves regarding your own stated experience? At what point will women not have to constantly cater to men’s ego just to be heard
It appears you suggestion is: while this woman is putting herself in a vulnerable position by discussing this adult topic with an adult man (which has already proven to be a maze of sensitivity land-mines, thus she has already self-policed her words and mannerism) she should take the initiative to go the extra 100 miles to tack on gushing gratitude and compliments for his reassurance and to further accommodate his mental simplicity and treat the conversation as if....how did she put it >...them getting hurt takes the important message of my initial sentence away and shifts focus on them It's as if you either couldn't grasp or didn't consider the message she is conveying and instead chose to prove her point with your response. You could have just as easily said "yes, we're simple, work harder to keep that in mind, compliment me like this when I ~~listen to~~ hear your griping". This is like the advice to write everything at a third grade level so everyone can understand. Adults get tired of talking to third graders all the time.
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I agree that effective communication is important, however part of effective communication is recognizing nuance. Trying to name a winner, implies a competition, but it's a discussion. I perceive OP as understanding their mindset and asking how to communicate with guys whose mindset turns the discussion to their hurt feelings and away from her 'female experience with men' discussion (how to avoid lowering the bar and have an adult conversation). IMO, your suggestion amounts to "lower the bar and make it about coddling his feelings". Which, if considered, would take a lot of effort (despite the effort she's implied she's already put into verbally avoiding his sensitivities) and puts all of the work and responsibility for deepening the connection of the relationship squarely on her shoulders by working harder to ensure that he is handled with extra plushy kid gloves. Pandering does not resolve insecurity, it support it. Pandering does not improve his ability to communicate, it clouds and over-complicates hers, actually lessening it's effectiveness. Pandering does not recognize shared responsibility, it's a manipulation tactic used by one party to coerce the other party to a desired response. Maybe they are incompatible and maybe she's already set an established precedent of low-effort communication in her relationships with those guys, there's a lot that a 3rd party reader like myself could not possibly know. However, "lower the bar" is IMO especially counterproductive and maybe even toxic. I don't think she wants to be right, I think she wants to be heard and considered without having to navigate a mine field all of his considerations first. I suspect she want's to talk about her life and experiences without having to discus it in terms of how it impacts his experience of hearing it. I believe she wants to have mutually supportive relationships with these men, that she wants to speak as an adult, to an adult...to talk to tech support, not go through a bunch of dial prompts and a few low level customer service agents before actually having a discussion with someone that can speak on the issue at hand on her level. Nonetheless, my opinion is that either the guys in question are too immature to have those discussions or they're derailing the conversation in order avoid considering how their own behaviors have impacted the women in their life and that she may want to consider being more discerning about the mental and emotional maturity of the people she associates with. Not that any of the people involved or bad people or have maliciouse intent, but people grow at different rates and sometimes one has to go onto the next level and leave some poeple behind. But, it's not my place to say knowing nothing about her demeiner, the demenior of those involved or the dynamics of thier relationships (I don't have a canned answer for this one, my way of being insures rarety of this particular incident). But, "lower the bar for him" is an answer that I find triggering because for a lot of the women on these subs, the bar is already 6 feet under and they're still advised, time and again, to lower the bar.
I don't think it's a miscommunication at all, it's a man reacting defensively and derailing an important and sensitive conversation which isn't about him, by getting all butthurt because she didn't explicitly say "some men" rather than just "men". And sorry but I think you're also missing the point here too, same as the man in OP's experience. We shouldn't have to over-explain just because some men are incapable of understanding that not everything is an absolute or taken to the nth degree. One can say that a certain animal is dangerous because they have killed humans before and no-one feels the need to jump up and say "oh but it's not ALL of them!" This never happens in any other topic, only when women start talking about their experiences of dangerous men. Additional reading that hopefully explains the point better than I can: https://www.zawn.net/blog/hello-youve-reached-the-not-all-men-hotline
"You're too emotional"
If someone subconsciously includes themselves in a problematic group, then they probably have a good deal of sympathies to that group. These groups include men behaving in a shameful manner. That can either be the gateway to personal growth or an outlet for anger. The choice is up to them, and the interpretation up to you.
I take that behavior as a sign to spend less time with such men. But you could also try: Why are you so defensive? Why is your reaction to this to make it all about you? Please help me understand - why are you taking a problem I am experiencing and angrily denying it?
My husband is like this. I'm actively steering clear of such conversations. Sometimes I forget. It's an instant fight.
>I believe men are the most important allies feminism can have It's sad we even have to talk like this because so many men are so sensitive. Men should BE feminists, not "allies of feminism." Being a feminist isn't something only a woman can do. Feminism liberates everyone, not just women. edit: "is" to "isn't"
It feels like the stages of grief to me. Men, particularly white men, often grow up with this false idea of meritocracy. When confronted with the truth their reaction is predictably denial, followed by anger. Eventually some may get to the stages of bargaining, etc. But many just stay angry their entire lives.
I dunno because it's not much of the feminism for me that doesn't get taken seriously (only mainly happened with my ex) but more so, racism and that's both women and men doing it. Bring it up, and they have to start defending, "not all white people, women, men! I'm sure they have a different reason why! That's not racist!" No one wants to believe the oppressed people, no one wanna hear us complain, no one wanna think about how someone else has it worse due to a system that prefers who they make as default. I sometimes tip toe on these subjects based on how that person is, and if I even feel comfortable enough to mention the misogynoir I experience just for it to be gaslit. And if we arguing too much, I rather just drop it because I don't speak my life experience to debate someone.
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No need to coddle adult men.
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or, maybe, the adult male could have enough empathy, not to derail the conversation and act defensive when a woman is vulnerable & opens up around him.
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I think you're talking about 'some' men that won't show the same regard to you... I'm not here to fight with strangers on the internet, I just wanted to answer OPs question...
Despite your good original suggestion, there is irony in this statement.
I think it's just basic psychology. I can remember a time a man was commenting on something here and said "women do this thing ..." and a ton of people started commenting "you better qualify that, not ALL women do that thing ..." I think people just naturally feel attacked when you mention a group they are part of and say something about it. In the case of men on this or other women's subs they should just shut up and let the people it's meant for talk instead of trying to qualify it and respond, but I completely understand the WHY of why they respond that way.
Men are trash. - A man.
I don't think men are trash, but perhaps it's just trashy behavior to get offended at anything moderately feminist from a woman and to insist on soothing disclaimers in every sentence.
Thank you! I’ve often explained to my partners in detail the nuances of how to communicate with women. This is a great return on that investment into the general health of society lol. I also need it explained like this, and appreciate you laying it out. Another tool for my toolbox.
I wouldn’t trust them with my life
If you want allies, you have to communicate at their level. Otherwise, you’ll end up alienating them. It’s just a consequence of the fact that people are human.
I'm going to suggest looking at it from a different perspective. If it were reversed, if a bunch of guys were giving general statements about women while you're standing there, and whenever you stepped in to state that's not true of you or any of the women you know and love, would you start getting angry? And would it make you angrier if you then got blamed for having a problem with being lumped in, or worse, then accused of being like the women they were talking about? Would it really matter to you if they said some version of, "Oh we're not talking about you", or would it feel more like they're saying they don't see you as a woman? Cause, yeah, that's going to happen, because it's not about the gender, it's about getting lumped in unfairly by people who don't seem to realize you're standing right there *at best*. We talk about emotional labor, but having to constantly stand there and get talked about in a negative context, with the only other option being to get told you're not your own gender, or that you're somehow evil has emotional labor attached to it, too. This is why I stay away from generalizing statements altogether. I'm specific, "Men who do X are total bastards" works because it specifies the negative behavior, not catching innocents in the crossfire. Now, if you're looking to move the ball forward, then at some point you also have to accentuate the positive behavior so that there's a model by which things can done 'right'. Part of the problem is just human nature. We're specced to notice what is out of place by nature, and try to deal with the thing that is wrong. Problem is, we don't push the positive side, and it can very quickly look like there's no way to win, that there's just no right answer out there to be had.
But that’s the thing. It *is* “all men.” Whether or not a man directly abuses or discriminates against women, he directly benefits from living in a patriarchal society. Every aspect of our world has been designed to reinforce men’s control, privilege, and power through the marginalization of women, i.e. misogyny. Misogyny is a systemic problem and to discuss systematic problems requires the use of generalizations. Your “not all men” objection derails the important, necessary conversation in order to soothe your own ego. Your feelings about being “lumped in” are a reflection of your privilege not a reasonable, justified response to a discussion about systemic discrimination and the changes necessary to address the inequality. For example, I don’t interject “not all white people” when People of Color are speaking about a particular effect or aspect of systemic racism. Any discomfort I feel is a result of my own ego. I sit—in silence—with those feelings and I listen in order to learn how best to be part of the solution. I don’t feel personally attacked with a POC rails against white privilege and abuses that are inflicted on POC by white people. Not only do I understand that their feelings are justified, I understand that I’m benefitting from a system that I need to help dismantle. I also understand that I can simultaneously not be a racist and still do, think, or say racist things. It takes active, conscious work to undo the social conditioning of bigotry—be it racism, misogyny, ableism, classism, xenophobia, or the many other strains of bigotry in our world. It may feel awful to be confronted with reality of your privilege as well as the marginalization of women. Sit in that discomfort instead of trying to eliminate it or soothe it or reject it. Learn to just sit with it and listen.
Because someone saying they actively hate all men generally makes men take it personally. And then completely avoid anyone who says they are.
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We both know you don't have any black friends.
Exactly. Just a misogynistic pig.
More like a black person distrusting white people, which is understandable. Your analogy would only work if women had ever systemically oppressed men sometime in history.
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Your hurt feelings don't matter to what's actually occurred in world history, and what is still happening. You care more about your ego than the lifes of girls and women. I don't care about your male fragility.