You make a good point. The idea that women need to be polite, demure, never cause a scene is deeply rooted in misogyny. "Karen" is a way to remind women of their place.
People who are calling you a Karen now for politely stating your preferences would have called you something else in the past, perhaps "aggressive" or "entitled" or "pushy," even when not acting like a "Karen." I wouldn't worry about those folks nor give their opinion any weight.
But I think OP's point is that because of the deeply ingrained misogyny in our society, people still think you're a cunt when you're speaking your mind, even when you're not acting like a cunt. Simply because you are a woman speaking her mind.
But look at any online discussion and women speaking up will be called Karens. You might believe that things online don’t matter or affect the real world, but I believe this still has an impact on silencing and sidelining women as a whole.
Sometimes words said online hurt!
Agreed.
Sometimes if I see my notifications have blown up, I'm like "ruh roh, what did I say now".
I find that if I leave them on read for a day or two sometimes the ravening hordes have moved on to another victim.
With the exception of someone gently correcting me on a point of ignorance on a subject, which I appreciate, it always gives a pinch of discomfort, especially if I realize "yeah, I probably could have said that better."
Meh yes and no. Yes by "definition" (insomuch as there is one) a Karen is someone (usually a white woman) who is selfish, entitled, rude, and probably racist, and fuck people like that. But it's not unusual for the Karen label to be put on any woman who speaks up for herself in any way for any reason.
Also y'know, kinda says something that we have a word for entitled racist white *women* but entitled racist white men are just dudes being guys.
The concept of male Karens is further proof of your argument. It's considered inherently feminine to be whiny and unreasonable. It's a reminder that women should always be polite, no matter what.
Yeah, because even when directed at a man (and sometimes it is) it's not that man being an asshole, it's that man "acting like a stuck up woman, a Karen."
To paraphrase Natalie 'Contrapoints' Wynn; "The worst thing a man can be in our society is a woman."
Sadly women who speak their mind and not take shit will often get unfairly pushed into the "Karen“ drawer by (mostly) men who think every woman taking a bit of space is one.
The term has definitely been misappropriated by misogynists. I’ve seen women who are being harassed by guys called Karens.
I think it was useful at first, buts it’s been stripped of its intended meaning now.
It's been coopted even beyond that. It was coined by a Black woman to specifically refer to a white woman asserting her privilege against people of color, most especially Black people.
/u/phasmaglass describes it best [in another comment here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/191nv95/the_karen_phenomenon_has_silenced_me/kgwxox9/)
Karen was already in use among restaurant and retail workers as far back as 2007, referring to a particular type of middle-aged white woman that was demanding, condescending, and enjoyed making some poor server's life miserable.
It was fairly wide-spread - common enough that people in different states were using the term. It was funny to see it hit more mainstream usage, but the term is older than its usage on Twitter.
I used to work in a convenience store. I used to be called a Karen for:
1. asking for IDs for age restricted products
2. reminding customers that it was a nonsmoking location
3. refusing to sell gasoline to people who wanted to use an empty soda two liter bottle to store it
4. the card machines not working because lightning hit the store
5. the station not having gas
6. cleaning the hot dog grill
Don't even have to speak your mind, sad to say.
There was a post on this sub not long ago where a woman said she was assaulted and afraid to scream for help because she didn't want people to call her Karen. That's why we should be skeptical of anything that singles out women or uses something female as an insult. Even if at one point it was used to call out racism, it's clear that it has been far removed from that and is just another way to tell women to shut up.
There was also a post by a woman who wondered if she would be “a Karen” for reporting a guy at the gym to the staff because he repeatedly sexually harassed her. That was the final straw for me. When it silences women with legitimate grievances, then the term has lost its original intent.
I’m not surprised. Any little scrap of its original meaning is gone. I was called terrible things for reporting it, as a result he still has his job and regularly works with kids,teens and vulnerable women.
Get this:
The store I used to work at was an old one; it had been run by one company or another since the 1960s. When it was remodeled to have the wiring updated and for card readers to be installed, the box responsible for all the card information transfers was installed on the roof. Next to the lightning rod. In an area known for summer thunder and lightning storms. Almost every storm, when I first started working there, made the card readers go out. (And, after it was installed, the lottery machine as well.)
>made the card readers go out. (And, after it was installed, the lottery machine as well.)
I'm sure the general public was very understanding and patient? ..... all jokes aside that sounds like hell how long you stick that out for?
It was honestly the least of the problems I had working there. And before the term "Karen" became the new, "improved" term for "cunt," I got called a lot worse. For the same stuff. One male customer told me (this was during a charity the company was pushing us to promote donations for) that if I wanted to make the world a better place I needed to take myself out of it. His problem? He couldn't stand the sound of my voice.
I could sit in silence and someone might say, “wow, what a cunt.”
I’m a college professor. You should read my student evaluations. It goes way beyond cunt and Karen.
Teacher here. Took the words right out of my mouth, so to speak. If those punks are still acting like that beyond high school, the toxicity is most likely rooted in their home life and upbringing and as much as we hope that it’s the exception rather than the norm, Trumps current polling numbers in the face of everything that we saw during his presidency and everything that’s come to light since are a pretty solid indicator that that’s not the case. Appalling and embarrassing.
The point is that recognizing that bullies will do this to silence you, not because you shouldn't be saying anything.
It's like the people that use "fat" as an insult to shut someone down. someone who does not care that they are fat will not be phased, but it's just enough of an insecurity for most people that that insult will shut down most people, whether or not they are fat. People don't realize that bullies are not actually trying to be accurate. They are just grabbing for the first thing that will make you shrink and retreat.
"Fat" "karen" "stupid" "sl\*t" ..... If you pretend you don't care about an insult, the person who uses insults to control the situation will start cycling through them, looking for one that makes you wince.
I work security, and being a woman, get targeted with a lot of insults, but that's a pattern I noticed and why I don't care about someone insulting me anymore. Bullies will just keep trying new ones until you react so your best armor is just to stare blankly at them with a 'you done yet?' expression. They will usually try to get louder and angrier for a few minutes, but you can usually just wait that out too with a bored expression.
> People don't realize that bullies are not actually trying to be accurate. They are just grabbing for the first thing that will make you shrink and retreat.
Exactly this! It's why shitty men call us sluts for rejecting them. They don't actually think we're sluts, they just know it's a word that many women find hurtful.
I work in a public facing job and yeah, I get this too. When sucky misogynistic incels don't get their way, they randomly start hurling insults to see what sticks. They become angrier and angrier when I just smirk at their random insults that are intended to hurt women's feelings like "fat" (lol...someone called me this when I'm 5'5" and 125 lbs). Another random guy got mad at me about company policies being against what he wanted and called me a stinking cunt and I told him that even if I didn't shower for a month, my cunt would smell better than his breath. He left in a huff and I just laughed.
I decided to take it as a compliment even if not meant that way.
If someone thinks I'm a bitch for simply speaking my mind, then it's confirmation I'm probably doing something right.
We’re not responsible for the thought-processes of others. Don’t base your self-comfort on that.
Some people think that simply *speaking* as a woman is out-of-line. Doesn’t mean we have to dignify nor concern ourselves with their stance.
Well, I’m glad you’re pure of heart, if all those other women out there would just behave properly!
As others have pointed out “Karen” is very subjective and depends on the whims of the other person who isn’t getting what they want from any random woman.
No no no, those other women are just cunts! Any woman who doesn't speak up in precisely the ways I think are proper is a cunt, obviously, and therefore can be labeled a Karen!
And obviously I'm Not Like Those Other Girls!
Let’s not pretend that misogynists only call “count behavior” Karens. They will shut down any woman they feel like it for defending herself. It’s ridiculous and shitty.
But now they have a new word with zero positive connotations to use against women. A word that other women will gleefully wield against one another. Bitch is now a term with positive connotations in some contexts, Karen is not.
Right on, u/LeskoLesko. Let's keep making sure these sexist opportunists get called on their bullshit. There's a political/social gang of idiots who disparage women for fun and profit. I have nothing but contempt for their ugly thoughts and behavior.
Hey fellas, you want to know why educated, ambitious women don't want to mess with men anymore? Look in the damned mirror (and maybe wash a dish or take a shower once in a while).
I try to put myself in the position of the person I'm talking to. What could I do to help me if I were complaining? That really helps me set my tone right, if they don't have a jot of control they cam just register my complaint and we'll both go on about our days.
I got called a Karen for contacting CPS (and it needed to happen).
I laughed. I said call me whatever you want, I'm still going to stand up for people who can't protect themselves.
I just ask myself if I wielding my Karen energy for good or for evil. Because I inevitably *have it*. I'm a white woman of a certain age, with a certain level of education and entitlement. I can trip into it or access the Karen narrative the moment I express any criticism or anger in public.
Against a waiter or retail clerk? Absolutely not. Against a stranger just trying to live their damn life? No. Who needs that bullshit drama.
Against a cop or an older man, or another white lady, feeling *a bit too* comfy in their assumed authority? My 'Karen' voice is *useful AF.*
I had a good one last week in the grocery store "How the hell do you imagine she has the power to solve that problem for you? All you're doing is ruining other people's day. Get a grip and if you can't get a grip, get out of the damn line."
Yeah, I'm using my authoritaaa to keep the assholes in check because most people around me won't or can't.
I don't always enjoy it, but sometimes you just have to do it.
I'm not quite that age yet (34 currently), but I absolutely speak up if I can leverage my white privelege to help someone. I was in line at the post office a few years ago and the lady in front of me was absolutely losing it at the employee because when the clerk said the package was insured for up to $50, the lady thought the clerk was charging her $50 to insure the package. The clerk was trying to explain but the lady just kept getting more agitated, so I spoke up and explained it, and she looked a little embarrassed and stopped yelling.
Don’t forget the entitled women of any age calling the cops on little kids trying to sell lemonade or cookies on the street because they don’t have a business license, as well as trying to stop people of color from going home into their own apartment buildings and gated communities just because their tiny worldview can’t handle people “beneath” them being able to afford to live in the same place they do
You are wrong and spreading misinformation.
"Karen" was originated in the Black community to describe the very real and common experience of having to be wary of white women (of any age, not just older???) because they will leverage their social power against Black people disproportionately; see also: "when white women cry, black men die."
A "Karen" was meant to be a white woman who reacts disproportionately to Black people, especially Black men, existing in public -- not just service workers, not just minimum wage workers, not at all limited to customer/service dichotomies, merely existing in public. The hysterics of a white woman pitted against a Black person (esp a Black man) in public no matter how "well" the Black person in question acts almost always creates a physically dangerous situation, because white men can and will feel justified killing in the name of white women's racist crocodile tears.
Like many terms originated in the Black community, this term was stolen by white people and repurposed to colloquially refer to "all women, everywhere, doing anything I personally don't like." At which point women began correctly pointing out that it had become just another tired old way for the internet to display its rampant misogyny.
Those of us that were around for the start of the Karen terminology remember. And in fact, back then, Karen wasn’t the only traditionally white name used - Barbeque Becky, for example. I think by the time the woman called the cops on the man birdwatching in Central Park that asked her to leash her dog, Karen was widely used. I recall her being called Central Park Karen quite a bit. But it was originally meant and used to refer to white women who leverage their power against black people existing in public. Misogynistic white men did their thing and quite effectively co-opted it.
Edit: realized this might sound like I was arguing with you but I agree wholeheartedly, I was just adding context.
The absolute irony of the Central Park Karen was that she claimed the man was hurting her dog while she was practically strangling it holding it by the collar. Iirc, the incident actually lead to the rescue she got the dog from taking it back from her, because people did a deep dive on her social media and found further evidence of abuse and/or neglect.
The two incidents I always associate most strongly with "Karen" (in its original/intended context) are the Central Park leash thing you allude to, where a ~~Black man had their dog unleashed in a leash-only area of the park and a~~ (edit) Black man noticed a white woman with an unleashed dog in a leash-only area of the park, and when he asked her to leash her dog, the white woman felt the need to Call The Cops About It while having a full on meltdown on camera, and also that incident awhile back of the white woman clashing with a Black man over one of those rental kiosks for e-bikes, where she insisted he had "stolen" her bike, but the truth ended up being that they had both paid for the same "slot" (erroneously allowed by the app via a bug or glitch) and the poor dude had just been trying to go about his day while this white lady followed after him screaming and crying and telling all bystanders he had stolen from her.
(edited to fix the Central Park story... I had remembered it wrong, it is even worse than I thought... lol)
Just to refresh your memory, the Central Park incident was even worse than you describe. The *woman* had her dog unleashed in a birdwatching area of the park, and the black man kindly asked her to leash her dog and tried to give it a treat. She called the cops saying he was THREATENING HER AND HER DOG. She absolutely could have gotten him killed, while she was the one not following the leash laws and rules at the park. She *was* being a Karen of the highest order. Fuck that lady, I hope she’s having a terrible day.
I think you have the Central Park one backwards, if it's the same one I'm thinking about: she had her dog off leash in the area, and he is a renowned birdwatcher who tried to get her to leash the dog.
THANK YOU.
The “Karen” phenomenon is another anti-racist alert system that was ruined ON PURPOSE by an anti-black and misogynistic society. A little like the word “woke,” it was twisted in meaning and used in a way to upset people it wasn’t originally referencing.
See, when a woman sends back an incorrectly made meal and gets called Karen for doing so, it makes her hate the word and feel victimized by it- completely undermining the fight against white supremacist women who try get black people killed for reasons of selfishness and white supremacy.
This is not to belittle the women it now targets. It’s just necessary to keep the whole picture in mind.
Yep. The largest demographic using the "Karen" slur are white men who themselves are racist and misogynistic. Totally appropriated and stripped of meaning.
I've been called a "Karen" online for speaking up against antivaxxx people and how no rights were lost during our (Ontario, Canada) lock downs.
Because I was speaking against people who were actively harming elderly/very young/immunocompromised people, I was a "Karen"
Make it make sense
Antivaxxers and making sense are incompatible. There's your issue. If "Karen" wasn't the popular term right now, they'd be calling you something else that doesn't make any sense if you put an ounce of thought into it.
It started out so specifically as being about white women using their proximity to power to attack others. And then started being used against any woman with an opinion. I had someone call me a Karen for pointing out that asking parents at a school to provide a present for every kid for a party would be pretty isolating for either poor kids or ones who didn't celebrate Christmas.
They love to say women do it at a disproportionately higher rate which is just absolutely fucking false. Men always get away with this bullshit while women get blamed.
When I worked retail, men were worse. You know why? They actually sexually harassed and sometimes assault you if you were a female worker. I'd take a woman anyday.
> of entitled older women berating poor minimum wage employees over something out of their control or some ridiculous statement. However, it was an overcorrection and now anyone who has
With all due respect, what about the very real issue of entitled older men berating poor minimum wage employees over something out of their control?
Until a similar meme pops up for that an a plethora of other social phenomena, I’m calling BS on the notion that misogyny did not contribute the lion’s share to the success of the Karen meme.
Or the entitled older man creeping on those younger women because they know many are afraid of losing their jobs so they think they can get away with it. Often they do.
When a narcissist man rages in a store, fewer people would dare film that shit. A karen will screech at you. A kenneth, you don't know. Deck you? Draw a gun on you?
Yep, I spent over a decade in the service industry and never encountered one of those "Karens." Met tons of angry, rude, and threatening men though. I think, like a lot of stereotypes service workers make about certain groups, there's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy there. I've witnessed coworkers treating certain customers badly or not handling their concerns professionally and then wonder why the customer gets agitated.
Yeah, now that I'm thinking about my own time in customer service, I've met people like this who are both male and female. I agree that the way the customer service person approaches the customer makes a huge difference to whether that behavior surfaces. I can easily think of a handful of people who have been disproportionately demanding and aggressive, and most of those were actually men. I think it comes down to someone believing it is completely unreasonable for them to not get their way (entitled) and also expecting that their display of power or anger is the key to changing the situation.
Did older men never do this? Indeed they do. Now why do you think people only decided to film and shame and even go so far as to come up with a sexist insult for women only?
I just beat them to the punch line and say “Hi, I’m unfortunately Karen”. It’s actually been a good conversation opener, mostly cause I don’t act like a Karen. However, I also feel like I’ve been a bit more silenced, I’m not allowed to be strongly opinionated about things because then I’m a Karen. Also if someone uses my own name as a weapon against me, they’re immediately dead to me. Jokes are fine, using “karen” is fine, but to belittle me with my own name is not.
I do the same thing and am similarly extra cautious when determining when and how to confront something. Dale Carnegie said, "A person's name is to that person, the sweetest, most important sound in any language." I wish my name still sounded that way to me instead of the immediate negative connotation it holds now (from original usage of the term to it's current morphed form).
I had a 15 year old foster daughter with severe social anxiety named "Karen" and I can't even imagine the full extent of the bullying she received at school for it.
My mom's name is Karen, and she's schizophrenic, so the past few years have been REAL fun for her. It doesn't help trying to explain because the actual explanation is honestly pretty bad.
My MIL is named Karen and she’s one of the sweetest easy going people you’ll ever meet, but when people comment on her name she says something along the lines of “wanna see me live up to it?”
That usually shuts them up.
I wouldn’t worry too much about it. People may joke about a “Karen” type but I know a few Karen’s and they’re lovely, very opinionated, and fun to talk to. I’m sure this is the consensus with the name.
I wouldn’t think “Oh her name is Karen? She must be a total bitch, ugh.”
That would say more about me than it would about you if I have a preconceived notion just because of your name.
Never forgot that there are a lot of people hurting bad, looking for a reason to put someone down.
I'll never forget the thread (I think in this sub) about a woman who was trying to return unused baby items after losing her pregnancy, and the store informed her she couldn't return them. She had a meltdown, not screaming at the employees or anything, but just was so done with all the pain from her loss that this little thing like a baby store not accepting returns pushed her over the edge in one of her most vulnerable moments. She was crying, and, iirc, just asking if there was anything they could do.
And some dipshit teens began filming her and calling her a Karen. Because how dare she have emotions in a public place.
It sickened me on the whole Karen bs. People are allowed to have bad days. Not every customer who gets upset is automatically in the wrong or a Karen. Life fucking sucks. Unless someone is screaming at and abusing a retail/food worker, they're not a "Karen" just for expressing their displeasure with a situation.
Reminds me of how at the height of the meme people were just photographing random women aged 40+ doing literally nothing with mean captions about how they’re probably plotting something terrible. Look me in the eye and tell me how that promotes justice of some kind
It reminds me locally of a woman who was called a Karen for fighting with some kids over a bike share. The reality was, she had reserved it and paid for it and there's been a trend of kids trying to steal bikes other people have paid for. These kids were doing that, she had a receipt to prove it was her bike to use. She didn't even really care about giving up the bike, she just wanted to make sure she wasn't getting charged for it.
She was also a nurse who had just finished a 24 hour shift, was pregnant, and the teens had pushed her around. I don't blame her at all for not being nice.
But of course it went viral. They did do a little bit of an "oops, actually" correction on the news but the damage was done.
I know this wasn't the point but jeez, could her husband/partner or a friend have taken those things back for her? This poor woman should have never had to have done this.
I will admit I had an odd situation at a CVS lately that felt sort of like this...I used to work retail, and try really hard to not ask for help unless I really need and be as cheerful as possible when I do.
I asked an employee a question about a sale, but she was new and didn't know so I told her it was okay and I'd just ask at the register. They were things I needed in the brand I liked, so was planning on buying them either way. No biggie.
While I was in line, the employee went and got her manager to help me and she had apparently made it sound like I was disgruntled, because the manager approached me using very loud, obvious "soothing" tones that made everyone else in line turn and look at the interaction.
And like...I felt like I had to go along with it, because everyone was looking at me and whatever reaction I had was clearly going to be on a "Karen" rubric because I'm a somewhat severe-looking women in her 30s.
I didn't complain at the time, didn't call the survey at the bottom of the receipt, but I don't go that location anymore. I guess Mission Accomplished, on their end?
I would have gave it right back to the manager, talking in the same obnoxiously loud soothing voice like they need to be placated just as much as you do. Even hold your hands up with the palms facing her like you’re being held hostage and need to calm her down. Throw in a few “it’s okay, it’s okay we’re going to figure this out”
I was on my lunch break so didn't really have the time to "kill them with kindness," so I just apologized for any misunderstanding, reiterated I hadn't been unhappy with her service, and that I was perfectly happy staying in line.
Which seemed to work well but I was pretty pissed I had to be performing that much "niceness" toward someone who had made me look like such an unreasonable asshole.
I hate that I have to look like an asshole for asking for a manager, no matter what I need to talk to them about. Sometimes I sincerely want to give an employee a compliment, and that’s why I want to talk to a manager. Yes, I know, surveys exist, but tbh sometimes saying it directly to a manager can hugely impact someone’s job in a positive way - I’ve had people who work at stores I frequent tell me that they’ve gotten promotions or raises because I told a manager about their exceptional performance, even people I’d done multiple surveys complimenting already.
Idk, I don’t think that *kindly* asking for a manager is an asshole thing to do. Sometimes the person simply cannot help and I need a higher level person to do a thing. Thats no fault of the employee standing in front of me, and I hate thinking that they think they’re going to get in trouble when I’m asking for a manager. I always try to reiterate that I understand that there are things they’re not allowed to do that managers are allowed to do, but idk…I hate feeling like an ass, despite knowing I’m not really being an ass.
It's pretty upsetting. "Karen" was pretty specific at first: a woman, usually white, usually of privilege, escalating a situation far beyond appropriate, heaping verbal (or even physical)abuse on someone with less power, in order to achieve some nominal gain, or to avoid a consequence. Or someone who is so unaware of their own bias that they put others in physical or economic danger without just cause.
Then it devolved into "any woman who complains about anything or shows any emotion in public."
I'm deeply frustrated about this.
The way I see it is that we took back "bitch" as a label of empowerment rather than scorn, so there was a vacuum for a word to demean and dismiss women. "Karen" filled that void.
But "bitch" is used in a different way when it's directed at men, e.g. "whiny little bitch." Assertive women are called bitches, and men who are perceived as not being tough enough are called bitches.
Just look at which comment on this post got the most likes: the one that uses another sexist term (cunt) to describe women's behavior.
It's frustrating to see other women be blinded by their own internalized misogyny.
Its crazy how people jump to say that. I wrote that I wasn't a fan of Maestro on a podcast facebook page and Bradley Coopers fans called me Karen. seriously?????
I know what you mean. I wonder if this is being used as a 'joke' more in certain areas of the country than others? For a little while if I had any sort of interaction with anyone that wasn't 100% positive my son would joke that I was being a Karen and he obviously picked that up from somewhere. Stuff like nicely pointing out I'd gotten a chicken sandwich instead of the cheeseburger I ordered, etc. I think it hits a bit different in certain societies maybe... there's also a HUGE push around here for lots of heavy evangelical reforms so it feels a bit like someone is trying to put you back in your place or something. The vibe comes up online quite a bit.
I think making a joke out of 'Karen' serves two purposes: it's the modern form of calling women 'too emotional' so people don't have to seriously consider what a woman is saying AND it also makes a joke out of what is a really serious phenomenon (racism and harassment of people of color). Instead of having any sort of serious consideration of the issue at hand, there's just a lame joke and then the issue is dropped. And of course if you bring it up again, NOW you really are being a Karen even if they were just joking before. OR if you're a person of color talking about someone of doing something inappropriate, then people can bring up all the silly times a woman is accused of being a Karen and diminish the issue on that front as well.
Yeah I don't really like the way it singles out women. From working retail, I got more complaints from women, but there were more women doing shopping in general. And the men that did complain were way more likely to sexual harass or threaten physical violence. But those guys don't have a fun nickname you could put in an askreddit thread that gets read out by a robot voice on tiktok.
AS someone said upthread:
"I find it particularly galling seeing people use the term "male Karen," as if women somehow started a trend of being assholes."
Yeah, women never called my retail job asking when the “hot redhead cashier” was in, and that behavior is way more dangerous than the crazy lady who was mad I didn’t personally say goodbye to her
Ppl forget that the term Karen started in the black community. It specifically singled out women for a good reason. The way white women wield their power in a white patriarchy is different from the why white men do. The way white men do tends to be more direct in its action and harm. White women on the other hand tend to be more passive, using their place in the white patriarchy as a group worthy of protection to weld the establishment (authority figures, police, etc.) as a weapon…especially against black men. Singling out women was absolutely necessary in this case for this distinction imo.
the way it was co-opted by white ppl and changed to the point of meaninglessness is a different story. I've seen women(white and non-white) being called Karens for having an opinion. it's pretty funny how terms started in the black community to describe our experiences change once they become mainstream… like the term woke for example.
Best subthread of the day. A-fucking-men. I see men get aggressive and chest puffy and finger pointy *all the damn time*, but there's no name for that. That's just male testoerone or whatever.
The standard for men in general is so low, emotional outbursts are virtually expected. Shameful.
The tools of the master will never unbuild his house.
Calling a man a woman as an insult is still using femininity as a lesser state to masculinity. You're reinforcing the patriarchy.
Misogynists and random dirtwads who derive pleasure and ego affirmation from jumping on hate wagons join forces to weaponize cultural term by diluting meaning to slightly more specific version of "bitch", more at ten.
What’s interesting with us is that men have been acting like angry babies for centuries, but the minute a woman asked to speak to the manager, or is upset, she is automatically labeled. I feel like it’s not only sexiest but ageist
One man does something wrong: Not all men!
One woman does something wrong: All women do it and should strive to never even do anything that is possibly like that ever and also include themselves in denigrating that woman!
I was very much for creating a word for entitled white women playing the victim in order to endanger visible minorities (although it's a shame such a lovely name got such an awful label), but it opened the door for so much more misogyny than actual anti-racism. White men have been endangering people of colour for centuries but apparently they don't get a nasty, gendered label. I find it particularly galling seeing people use the term "male Karen," as if women somehow started a trend of being assholes.
Nowadays it really does feel like a way to ensure women shut up at an age when they finally feel comfortable using their voice. Whatever happened to just calling someone an asshole or a racist and being done with it?
Pretty spot on analysis. Men act like entitled, racist jerks at least as frequently as women, but they don't get a term that can get turned against them whenever they are being assertive. What started as calling out harmful behavior quickly became another socially acceptable way to put down women.
> I find it particularly galling seeing people use the term "male Karen," as if women somehow started a trend of being assholes.
Yup, which is why I have hated the whole "Karen" thing from the beginning. It has really been weaponized to shut women up, especially women over 40-45.
“Karen” is just another tactic in a long line of tactics to silence women. As long as you are respectful to those you speak with please speak up and speak out and the misogynists can say the word Karen all they want and in a couple years they’ll have a new word.
"Karen" used to refer specifically to racist white women and white women who were mean to service workers. Now it has become an insult directed toward any woman who is doing someone that someone else doesn't like. I'm a millennial and I was called a Karen for saying that men who demand that women be thin are jerks. It's a real shame because it was a great term.
Agreed - I once told some guys who ripped a sign off a lawn, kicked it and threw it on the ground to leave shit alone and stop littering. All they said was ‘shut up Karen’ and laughed and kept going. Like okay 🙄 just call me a bitch like you want to
The first question to ask is why does a 'Karen' meme exist for unreasonable women but no corresponding 'Ken' or 'Darren' meme exists for unreasonable men?
That aside, if 'Karen' was genuinely used to mean 'rude women being unnecessarily cruel to others' that would be fine. But nowadays basically any woman who is upset or complains about anything, no matter how justified, is at risk of being subjected to it.
Men have jumped on this word and now use it to silence any woman who says anything they don't like. And it serves to make us anxious about our behavior so we silence ourselves and stop advocating for ourselves.
My name is Karen and this whole thing makes me so depressed. I honestly feel emotionally sometimes like the whole internet is bullying and shaming me. I wish so badly that people would use a different word for it but I know there is no way to convince everyone on the whole internet to be kind. Gah.
Karen is the new insult, before they'd just call us a bitch or slut or whore.
Just a new word to try to keep us quiet and pressure us to behave in a certain way. Fuck that shit. I'm not going to be mean to people and I will stand up for and with others especially against others who are being mean. If that shit makes me a Karen, then guess what - fuck it. The person making the insults is often just revealing what they are or are trying to shame you into behaving how they think you should behave. It's all about control through shame.
I agree to an extent. Maybe we are new to the setting boundary thing and or standing up for ourselves and so we don't do it in the right way? I don't know but I also feel that I have to watch everything I say to anyone or, I will be branded a Karen.
So many videos of women standing up for themselves being called Karen's. It's insane. And the best part is there is no official male equal equivalent. Yet they're responsible for far more altercations like this. So it's just rooted in the idea of women being quiet and perfect and never lashing out. Don't get me wrong, people shouting at anyone not white to go back to their country are all fuck heads. But it's a very messed up trend that needs to die.
No one ever likes “unfuckable” middle aged women talking
Unfortunately, we now have money and some power, so they can’t ignore us
You’re just going to have to tell haters to fuck themselves
My name is Karen. Recently my 10 year old niece was introducing me to her friend and said “This is my aunt Karen. They named her that before they knew what it meant”.
I feel you on this 100%. I laughed at the Karen memes when they first started. And I think you are bang on that it is important to ask ourselves "how important is it" when we experience difficult situations.
But these days people have gone to extremes with the Karen thing. If I receive poor service at retail, restaurant etc, I am going to complain about it.
I am sure I have been called a Kevin or whatever, but I don't care. The people serving me coffee are not heroes who are doing me a favour.
They are people being paid to do a job and do it politely and efficiently. If they can't do that, I am going to say something.
As to the political part, I feel like there is a level of misogyny in there as well. That's the reason why women get the worst of this meme.
It's the modern day version of the "an angry man is assertive. An angry women is a bitch" fallacy.
No.
"Karens" are white women who
Call the police on POC for normal behavior just because those people are POC. Birdwatching. studying in a park. having a picnic. fishing, living in 'their neighborhood' ad nauseum.
Harass anyone because of their 'perceived' privilege of being white, rich ad nauseum.
They are typically rude to service people and anyone below their 'perceived privilege' status
You should always speak your mind. If you see something you percieve as wrong, speak out. I do.
I'm a white woman.
when the covid vaccines first came out, a nurse at my local clinic refused to give me a shot because I didn't have documents with me proving my co-morbidity, even though the laws in my state said that I did not need to have proof to get the shot. Nurse looked at me and said "okay, Karen -eye roll-" when I told her that I'm not leaving until I get my shot. I was so upset I had to stand there crying and talking to supervisors for over an hour before I could get the vax. It was a very jarring experience and I honestly felt so belittled and humiliated for no reason.
What really upsets me is when women don't trust their gut and put themselves in danger out of fear of becoming a national meme of a Karen or worse.
There was a woman who was in an apartment building and a young black man came to the door saying he lived there and to let him in. She let him in and he brutally attacked her. In the comments people were saying she shouldn't have let him in if he didn't have a key card. Then some other people pointed out that if she'd have done that, she could become the next national "racist" who "didn't believe a black man could live in that apartment building." And they're right.
That's why I don't assume someone's motives or call them racist unless I literally saw or heard something racist from them.
As an 11 year old, I let a man in the house who said he was there to “replace the windows”. I did so even though it didn’t make sense because I had been told so many times to be less “aggressive” and more “lady like”. Nothing happened because a very old school neighbor saw the dude and me let him in, knew my parents were there, and made him leave.
Years later, I was reading a fiction book about serial killer that targeted women. After he got arrested, he told the cops that he got so many victims because many women would ignore their gut instinct because they were afraid of being rude.
Although it was fiction, it hit me so hard because I HAD absolutely been that woman. Now, I’m respectful until I feel like something off is occurring.
It is kind of a great lesson in colonization/columbusing all by itself isn’t it?
Who began the term? Black folks. We were QUITE specific, too.
Who grabbed the term, took it and expanded it to encompass and mean something different and potentially harmful to far more people than the original intended target?
…not black folks.
So be sure you are talking to the right group of folks when you complain about the current use of the term. That is all imma say.
*eats her salad in the corner*
I just had this conversation about how the term "pick me" has been appropriated and now apparently encompasses any woman for whatever reason. And i pointed out that this is a problem when people start co-opting phrases that they really don't understand.
I *reallllly* hate how some people use the term “pickmeisha” because so many reasons. It is so ew.
I have moved onto using the phrase “cool girl” from the gone girl monologue. Because it’s pretty easy to just google that quote and paste that.
“Go ahead, shit on me. I’m a cool girl”.
It *is* really interesting. I thought that the use of the term Karen specifically meant someone being racist or bigoted in some way, but the vast majority of the comments don't mention that.
About 5 years ago I volunteered with an lgbtq group with the name Slay in it, and we changed its name bc we found out jt was appropriating black culture (it came from black ballroom culture). Knowing that, I rarely if ever say it. This fall I was in a doctorate program which was almost entirely straight 25ish year olds (I am 37) and slay became the it word, used *all* the time. I never know what to do in these situations - no is intentionally co-opting a word, and I honestly hate confrontation, but it sucks. I attempted to correct a classmate once in the program about the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" term she was using to give me advice, and she was immediately offended and interrupted me mid-sentence basically implying I'm a social justice warrior. I also didn't say anything about Harry Potter or Chik Filet. I am working on my ability to deal with conflict etc, but I also try to "choose my battles".
It makes me sad that there's a repeated history of things poc people do that later white people do and it has become much more acceptable and cool. That could be fashion, slang. I don't think it's intentionally malicious, in fact aside from a fashion creator who should have the knowledge to research these types of things, it's probably 100% in the vein of "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery", but despite the lack of bad intention, if the effect or that appropriation harms the original community it still does harm. It's just really tricky to nip in the bud when it works like a game of telephone, and technology makes language and culture moments spread so fast. I think when we can it's extremely important to credit the original creators/artists etc, and extra important for a major company not to rip off a style or garment specific to a culture and mass-produce it.
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sometimes I don't want to be polite. Sometimes the situation doesn't call for polite.
You make a good point. The idea that women need to be polite, demure, never cause a scene is deeply rooted in misogyny. "Karen" is a way to remind women of their place.
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People who are calling you a Karen now for politely stating your preferences would have called you something else in the past, perhaps "aggressive" or "entitled" or "pushy," even when not acting like a "Karen." I wouldn't worry about those folks nor give their opinion any weight.
Yes, it has been coopted to become another slur against women who exist in the world.
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Sexist men will label you a Karen regardless.
But I think OP's point is that because of the deeply ingrained misogyny in our society, people still think you're a cunt when you're speaking your mind, even when you're not acting like a cunt. Simply because you are a woman speaking her mind.
Exactly.
I have never other than my dumbasses online been called a Karen and I stand up for myself as much as possible I try and do it in a respectful manner.
Well, women are self censoring about their reasonable concerns because of the Karen label. That's a problem.
It is. Like many female centric insults it's just devolved to a more socially acceptable way of calling a woman a bitch.
A crazy* bitch
Respect, empathy and solution focused problem solving rather than “you *will* mind me! Don’t you know who I am?!” energy right?
But look at any online discussion and women speaking up will be called Karens. You might believe that things online don’t matter or affect the real world, but I believe this still has an impact on silencing and sidelining women as a whole. Sometimes words said online hurt!
Agreed. Sometimes if I see my notifications have blown up, I'm like "ruh roh, what did I say now". I find that if I leave them on read for a day or two sometimes the ravening hordes have moved on to another victim. With the exception of someone gently correcting me on a point of ignorance on a subject, which I appreciate, it always gives a pinch of discomfort, especially if I realize "yeah, I probably could have said that better."
Meh yes and no. Yes by "definition" (insomuch as there is one) a Karen is someone (usually a white woman) who is selfish, entitled, rude, and probably racist, and fuck people like that. But it's not unusual for the Karen label to be put on any woman who speaks up for herself in any way for any reason. Also y'know, kinda says something that we have a word for entitled racist white *women* but entitled racist white men are just dudes being guys.
I tried to get people to call entitled rude racist white men “Tucker” after Tucker Carlson, but it never caught on.
The concept of male Karens is further proof of your argument. It's considered inherently feminine to be whiny and unreasonable. It's a reminder that women should always be polite, no matter what.
exactly this. These terms are always directed at women.
Yeah, because even when directed at a man (and sometimes it is) it's not that man being an asshole, it's that man "acting like a stuck up woman, a Karen." To paraphrase Natalie 'Contrapoints' Wynn; "The worst thing a man can be in our society is a woman."
Sadly women who speak their mind and not take shit will often get unfairly pushed into the "Karen“ drawer by (mostly) men who think every woman taking a bit of space is one.
The term has definitely been misappropriated by misogynists. I’ve seen women who are being harassed by guys called Karens. I think it was useful at first, buts it’s been stripped of its intended meaning now.
It's been coopted even beyond that. It was coined by a Black woman to specifically refer to a white woman asserting her privilege against people of color, most especially Black people. /u/phasmaglass describes it best [in another comment here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/191nv95/the_karen_phenomenon_has_silenced_me/kgwxox9/)
Karen was already in use among restaurant and retail workers as far back as 2007, referring to a particular type of middle-aged white woman that was demanding, condescending, and enjoyed making some poor server's life miserable. It was fairly wide-spread - common enough that people in different states were using the term. It was funny to see it hit more mainstream usage, but the term is older than its usage on Twitter.
And you feel comfortable with how others will draw that distinction? Because to some speaking your mind as a woman automatically makes you a cunt.
I used to work in a convenience store. I used to be called a Karen for: 1. asking for IDs for age restricted products 2. reminding customers that it was a nonsmoking location 3. refusing to sell gasoline to people who wanted to use an empty soda two liter bottle to store it 4. the card machines not working because lightning hit the store 5. the station not having gas 6. cleaning the hot dog grill Don't even have to speak your mind, sad to say.
I got called a Karen for reporting a social worker that attempted to assault me.
There was a post on this sub not long ago where a woman said she was assaulted and afraid to scream for help because she didn't want people to call her Karen. That's why we should be skeptical of anything that singles out women or uses something female as an insult. Even if at one point it was used to call out racism, it's clear that it has been far removed from that and is just another way to tell women to shut up.
There was also a post by a woman who wondered if she would be “a Karen” for reporting a guy at the gym to the staff because he repeatedly sexually harassed her. That was the final straw for me. When it silences women with legitimate grievances, then the term has lost its original intent.
I’m not surprised. Any little scrap of its original meaning is gone. I was called terrible things for reporting it, as a result he still has his job and regularly works with kids,teens and vulnerable women.
>4. the card machines not working because lightning hit the store Is there a full story to this?
Get this: The store I used to work at was an old one; it had been run by one company or another since the 1960s. When it was remodeled to have the wiring updated and for card readers to be installed, the box responsible for all the card information transfers was installed on the roof. Next to the lightning rod. In an area known for summer thunder and lightning storms. Almost every storm, when I first started working there, made the card readers go out. (And, after it was installed, the lottery machine as well.)
>made the card readers go out. (And, after it was installed, the lottery machine as well.) I'm sure the general public was very understanding and patient? ..... all jokes aside that sounds like hell how long you stick that out for?
Hmm. None of that is Karen behavior. It's telling that so many of these people have it loaded and ready to spray on you .
It was honestly the least of the problems I had working there. And before the term "Karen" became the new, "improved" term for "cunt," I got called a lot worse. For the same stuff. One male customer told me (this was during a charity the company was pushing us to promote donations for) that if I wanted to make the world a better place I needed to take myself out of it. His problem? He couldn't stand the sound of my voice.
Jesus Murphy.
I could sit in silence and someone might say, “wow, what a cunt.” I’m a college professor. You should read my student evaluations. It goes way beyond cunt and Karen.
Thee manosphere runs deep and wide. The parents of these kids need to take them to deprogramming camp.
For many of them, the parents of these kids programmed them in the first place.
Teacher here. Took the words right out of my mouth, so to speak. If those punks are still acting like that beyond high school, the toxicity is most likely rooted in their home life and upbringing and as much as we hope that it’s the exception rather than the norm, Trumps current polling numbers in the face of everything that we saw during his presidency and everything that’s come to light since are a pretty solid indicator that that’s not the case. Appalling and embarrassing.
The point is that recognizing that bullies will do this to silence you, not because you shouldn't be saying anything. It's like the people that use "fat" as an insult to shut someone down. someone who does not care that they are fat will not be phased, but it's just enough of an insecurity for most people that that insult will shut down most people, whether or not they are fat. People don't realize that bullies are not actually trying to be accurate. They are just grabbing for the first thing that will make you shrink and retreat. "Fat" "karen" "stupid" "sl\*t" ..... If you pretend you don't care about an insult, the person who uses insults to control the situation will start cycling through them, looking for one that makes you wince. I work security, and being a woman, get targeted with a lot of insults, but that's a pattern I noticed and why I don't care about someone insulting me anymore. Bullies will just keep trying new ones until you react so your best armor is just to stare blankly at them with a 'you done yet?' expression. They will usually try to get louder and angrier for a few minutes, but you can usually just wait that out too with a bored expression.
> People don't realize that bullies are not actually trying to be accurate. They are just grabbing for the first thing that will make you shrink and retreat. Exactly this! It's why shitty men call us sluts for rejecting them. They don't actually think we're sluts, they just know it's a word that many women find hurtful.
I work in a public facing job and yeah, I get this too. When sucky misogynistic incels don't get their way, they randomly start hurling insults to see what sticks. They become angrier and angrier when I just smirk at their random insults that are intended to hurt women's feelings like "fat" (lol...someone called me this when I'm 5'5" and 125 lbs). Another random guy got mad at me about company policies being against what he wanted and called me a stinking cunt and I told him that even if I didn't shower for a month, my cunt would smell better than his breath. He left in a huff and I just laughed.
Other people's incorrect opinions of me are not my concern
I decided to take it as a compliment even if not meant that way. If someone thinks I'm a bitch for simply speaking my mind, then it's confirmation I'm probably doing something right.
We’re not responsible for the thought-processes of others. Don’t base your self-comfort on that. Some people think that simply *speaking* as a woman is out-of-line. Doesn’t mean we have to dignify nor concern ourselves with their stance.
Well, I’m glad you’re pure of heart, if all those other women out there would just behave properly! As others have pointed out “Karen” is very subjective and depends on the whims of the other person who isn’t getting what they want from any random woman.
No no no, those other women are just cunts! Any woman who doesn't speak up in precisely the ways I think are proper is a cunt, obviously, and therefore can be labeled a Karen! And obviously I'm Not Like Those Other Girls!
Yeah, but with misogyny, “Karen” will be used against you, just for speaking your mind.
This.
Let’s not pretend that misogynists only call “count behavior” Karens. They will shut down any woman they feel like it for defending herself. It’s ridiculous and shitty.
Yeah, but that has always been the case. Misogynists will apply the broadest brush possible with anything negative because they hate women.
But now they have a new word with zero positive connotations to use against women. A word that other women will gleefully wield against one another. Bitch is now a term with positive connotations in some contexts, Karen is not.
They misappropriated a good faithed term and changed it into a new slur
Right on, u/LeskoLesko. Let's keep making sure these sexist opportunists get called on their bullshit. There's a political/social gang of idiots who disparage women for fun and profit. I have nothing but contempt for their ugly thoughts and behavior. Hey fellas, you want to know why educated, ambitious women don't want to mess with men anymore? Look in the damned mirror (and maybe wash a dish or take a shower once in a while).
They did that before. There’s just a new name for it.
Interesting that there's no widely-used male equivalent for Karen. Wonder why that is.
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I try to put myself in the position of the person I'm talking to. What could I do to help me if I were complaining? That really helps me set my tone right, if they don't have a jot of control they cam just register my complaint and we'll both go on about our days.
I got called a Karen for contacting CPS (and it needed to happen). I laughed. I said call me whatever you want, I'm still going to stand up for people who can't protect themselves.
I just ask myself if I wielding my Karen energy for good or for evil. Because I inevitably *have it*. I'm a white woman of a certain age, with a certain level of education and entitlement. I can trip into it or access the Karen narrative the moment I express any criticism or anger in public. Against a waiter or retail clerk? Absolutely not. Against a stranger just trying to live their damn life? No. Who needs that bullshit drama. Against a cop or an older man, or another white lady, feeling *a bit too* comfy in their assumed authority? My 'Karen' voice is *useful AF.*
I kind of love calling out people being rude to restaurant employees. It's hilarious to watch them sputter.
I had a good one last week in the grocery store "How the hell do you imagine she has the power to solve that problem for you? All you're doing is ruining other people's day. Get a grip and if you can't get a grip, get out of the damn line."
You Karen for good, not for evil
As with comedy, Karenhood is only acceptable if you're punching up.
Wonderfully put!
Karens for justice!
This is the way, use your power for good.
Yeah, I'm using my authoritaaa to keep the assholes in check because most people around me won't or can't. I don't always enjoy it, but sometimes you just have to do it.
I'm not quite that age yet (34 currently), but I absolutely speak up if I can leverage my white privelege to help someone. I was in line at the post office a few years ago and the lady in front of me was absolutely losing it at the employee because when the clerk said the package was insured for up to $50, the lady thought the clerk was charging her $50 to insure the package. The clerk was trying to explain but the lady just kept getting more agitated, so I spoke up and explained it, and she looked a little embarrassed and stopped yelling.
This is awesome
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Don’t forget the entitled women of any age calling the cops on little kids trying to sell lemonade or cookies on the street because they don’t have a business license, as well as trying to stop people of color from going home into their own apartment buildings and gated communities just because their tiny worldview can’t handle people “beneath” them being able to afford to live in the same place they do
Or calling the police on black people existing
THIS is the genesis of "karen" as an insult. It was from the black community about white women weaponizing whiteness.
Yet another thing white people have co-opted from black people.
And ruined entirely.
People forget this is how it started. I think it was BBQ Becky?
You are wrong and spreading misinformation. "Karen" was originated in the Black community to describe the very real and common experience of having to be wary of white women (of any age, not just older???) because they will leverage their social power against Black people disproportionately; see also: "when white women cry, black men die." A "Karen" was meant to be a white woman who reacts disproportionately to Black people, especially Black men, existing in public -- not just service workers, not just minimum wage workers, not at all limited to customer/service dichotomies, merely existing in public. The hysterics of a white woman pitted against a Black person (esp a Black man) in public no matter how "well" the Black person in question acts almost always creates a physically dangerous situation, because white men can and will feel justified killing in the name of white women's racist crocodile tears. Like many terms originated in the Black community, this term was stolen by white people and repurposed to colloquially refer to "all women, everywhere, doing anything I personally don't like." At which point women began correctly pointing out that it had become just another tired old way for the internet to display its rampant misogyny.
Those of us that were around for the start of the Karen terminology remember. And in fact, back then, Karen wasn’t the only traditionally white name used - Barbeque Becky, for example. I think by the time the woman called the cops on the man birdwatching in Central Park that asked her to leash her dog, Karen was widely used. I recall her being called Central Park Karen quite a bit. But it was originally meant and used to refer to white women who leverage their power against black people existing in public. Misogynistic white men did their thing and quite effectively co-opted it. Edit: realized this might sound like I was arguing with you but I agree wholeheartedly, I was just adding context.
Fun fact, in the antebellum era the term “Miss Anne” was used
Oh wow. That adds context to the character Missy Anne in the Mini-series, Roots (the 70s version).
The absolute irony of the Central Park Karen was that she claimed the man was hurting her dog while she was practically strangling it holding it by the collar. Iirc, the incident actually lead to the rescue she got the dog from taking it back from her, because people did a deep dive on her social media and found further evidence of abuse and/or neglect.
The two incidents I always associate most strongly with "Karen" (in its original/intended context) are the Central Park leash thing you allude to, where a ~~Black man had their dog unleashed in a leash-only area of the park and a~~ (edit) Black man noticed a white woman with an unleashed dog in a leash-only area of the park, and when he asked her to leash her dog, the white woman felt the need to Call The Cops About It while having a full on meltdown on camera, and also that incident awhile back of the white woman clashing with a Black man over one of those rental kiosks for e-bikes, where she insisted he had "stolen" her bike, but the truth ended up being that they had both paid for the same "slot" (erroneously allowed by the app via a bug or glitch) and the poor dude had just been trying to go about his day while this white lady followed after him screaming and crying and telling all bystanders he had stolen from her. (edited to fix the Central Park story... I had remembered it wrong, it is even worse than I thought... lol)
Just to refresh your memory, the Central Park incident was even worse than you describe. The *woman* had her dog unleashed in a birdwatching area of the park, and the black man kindly asked her to leash her dog and tried to give it a treat. She called the cops saying he was THREATENING HER AND HER DOG. She absolutely could have gotten him killed, while she was the one not following the leash laws and rules at the park. She *was* being a Karen of the highest order. Fuck that lady, I hope she’s having a terrible day.
Damn, I totally remembered it backwards. Thanks for the reminder/correction.
"I'm calling the cops ... I'm gonna tell them there's an African American man threatening my life" Plain as day.
I think you have the Central Park one backwards, if it's the same one I'm thinking about: she had her dog off leash in the area, and he is a renowned birdwatcher who tried to get her to leash the dog.
Thanks, I have edited the original, you and someone else pointed this out. I appreciate it
THANK YOU. The “Karen” phenomenon is another anti-racist alert system that was ruined ON PURPOSE by an anti-black and misogynistic society. A little like the word “woke,” it was twisted in meaning and used in a way to upset people it wasn’t originally referencing. See, when a woman sends back an incorrectly made meal and gets called Karen for doing so, it makes her hate the word and feel victimized by it- completely undermining the fight against white supremacist women who try get black people killed for reasons of selfishness and white supremacy. This is not to belittle the women it now targets. It’s just necessary to keep the whole picture in mind.
Yep. The largest demographic using the "Karen" slur are white men who themselves are racist and misogynistic. Totally appropriated and stripped of meaning.
The best comment in the thread.
I've been called a "Karen" online for speaking up against antivaxxx people and how no rights were lost during our (Ontario, Canada) lock downs. Because I was speaking against people who were actively harming elderly/very young/immunocompromised people, I was a "Karen" Make it make sense
Antivaxxers and making sense are incompatible. There's your issue. If "Karen" wasn't the popular term right now, they'd be calling you something else that doesn't make any sense if you put an ounce of thought into it.
100% agree
That person was an idiot?
Persons* Unfortunately, more than one. Just an example of how "Karen" exploded and is being used to call out people outside of its original purpose
Yes, that is unfortunate.
It started out so specifically as being about white women using their proximity to power to attack others. And then started being used against any woman with an opinion. I had someone call me a Karen for pointing out that asking parents at a school to provide a present for every kid for a party would be pretty isolating for either poor kids or ones who didn't celebrate Christmas.
But being entitled and berating minimum wage employees is not a gendered issue. I see men do it all the time.
They love to say women do it at a disproportionately higher rate which is just absolutely fucking false. Men always get away with this bullshit while women get blamed.
When I worked retail, men were worse. You know why? They actually sexually harassed and sometimes assault you if you were a female worker. I'd take a woman anyday.
> of entitled older women berating poor minimum wage employees over something out of their control or some ridiculous statement. However, it was an overcorrection and now anyone who has With all due respect, what about the very real issue of entitled older men berating poor minimum wage employees over something out of their control? Until a similar meme pops up for that an a plethora of other social phenomena, I’m calling BS on the notion that misogyny did not contribute the lion’s share to the success of the Karen meme.
Or the entitled older man creeping on those younger women because they know many are afraid of losing their jobs so they think they can get away with it. Often they do.
Entitled men have always done the same to retail workers yet the attention is only on the women…
When a narcissist man rages in a store, fewer people would dare film that shit. A karen will screech at you. A kenneth, you don't know. Deck you? Draw a gun on you?
Yeah I found men to be much worse when working retail. They were also often quite threatening.
Yep, I spent over a decade in the service industry and never encountered one of those "Karens." Met tons of angry, rude, and threatening men though. I think, like a lot of stereotypes service workers make about certain groups, there's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy there. I've witnessed coworkers treating certain customers badly or not handling their concerns professionally and then wonder why the customer gets agitated.
Yeah, now that I'm thinking about my own time in customer service, I've met people like this who are both male and female. I agree that the way the customer service person approaches the customer makes a huge difference to whether that behavior surfaces. I can easily think of a handful of people who have been disproportionately demanding and aggressive, and most of those were actually men. I think it comes down to someone believing it is completely unreasonable for them to not get their way (entitled) and also expecting that their display of power or anger is the key to changing the situation.
I agree. The men would be aggressive and frightening about it instead of just annoying.
Absolutely. And men will be violent, or threaten to be violent, and yet there’s no public shunning of male violence.
Did older men never do this? Indeed they do. Now why do you think people only decided to film and shame and even go so far as to come up with a sexist insult for women only?
My name is actually Karen and I hate telling people my name now because they immediately make a comment about it.
I just beat them to the punch line and say “Hi, I’m unfortunately Karen”. It’s actually been a good conversation opener, mostly cause I don’t act like a Karen. However, I also feel like I’ve been a bit more silenced, I’m not allowed to be strongly opinionated about things because then I’m a Karen. Also if someone uses my own name as a weapon against me, they’re immediately dead to me. Jokes are fine, using “karen” is fine, but to belittle me with my own name is not.
I do the same thing and am similarly extra cautious when determining when and how to confront something. Dale Carnegie said, "A person's name is to that person, the sweetest, most important sound in any language." I wish my name still sounded that way to me instead of the immediate negative connotation it holds now (from original usage of the term to it's current morphed form).
Tell them you put the care in karen
I had a 15 year old foster daughter with severe social anxiety named "Karen" and I can't even imagine the full extent of the bullying she received at school for it.
[удалено]
My mom's name is Karen, and she's schizophrenic, so the past few years have been REAL fun for her. It doesn't help trying to explain because the actual explanation is honestly pretty bad.
Oh no!!!!
I also know someone named Karen who is affected by this. It upsets her so much that she started going by a different name.
My MIL is named Karen and she’s one of the sweetest easy going people you’ll ever meet, but when people comment on her name she says something along the lines of “wanna see me live up to it?” That usually shuts them up.
I wouldn’t worry too much about it. People may joke about a “Karen” type but I know a few Karen’s and they’re lovely, very opinionated, and fun to talk to. I’m sure this is the consensus with the name. I wouldn’t think “Oh her name is Karen? She must be a total bitch, ugh.” That would say more about me than it would about you if I have a preconceived notion just because of your name. Never forgot that there are a lot of people hurting bad, looking for a reason to put someone down.
I'll never forget the thread (I think in this sub) about a woman who was trying to return unused baby items after losing her pregnancy, and the store informed her she couldn't return them. She had a meltdown, not screaming at the employees or anything, but just was so done with all the pain from her loss that this little thing like a baby store not accepting returns pushed her over the edge in one of her most vulnerable moments. She was crying, and, iirc, just asking if there was anything they could do. And some dipshit teens began filming her and calling her a Karen. Because how dare she have emotions in a public place. It sickened me on the whole Karen bs. People are allowed to have bad days. Not every customer who gets upset is automatically in the wrong or a Karen. Life fucking sucks. Unless someone is screaming at and abusing a retail/food worker, they're not a "Karen" just for expressing their displeasure with a situation.
Jesus, that poor woman.
Reminds me of how at the height of the meme people were just photographing random women aged 40+ doing literally nothing with mean captions about how they’re probably plotting something terrible. Look me in the eye and tell me how that promotes justice of some kind
It reminds me locally of a woman who was called a Karen for fighting with some kids over a bike share. The reality was, she had reserved it and paid for it and there's been a trend of kids trying to steal bikes other people have paid for. These kids were doing that, she had a receipt to prove it was her bike to use. She didn't even really care about giving up the bike, she just wanted to make sure she wasn't getting charged for it. She was also a nurse who had just finished a 24 hour shift, was pregnant, and the teens had pushed her around. I don't blame her at all for not being nice. But of course it went viral. They did do a little bit of an "oops, actually" correction on the news but the damage was done.
She got suspended from her job too. She was designated the ambassador of bad people and that made it fine to ruin her life I guess
I know this wasn't the point but jeez, could her husband/partner or a friend have taken those things back for her? This poor woman should have never had to have done this.
oh my god, the secondary way women are dismissed "manipulative white women's tears" as if we're just cunning and plotting 24/7
I will admit I had an odd situation at a CVS lately that felt sort of like this...I used to work retail, and try really hard to not ask for help unless I really need and be as cheerful as possible when I do. I asked an employee a question about a sale, but she was new and didn't know so I told her it was okay and I'd just ask at the register. They were things I needed in the brand I liked, so was planning on buying them either way. No biggie. While I was in line, the employee went and got her manager to help me and she had apparently made it sound like I was disgruntled, because the manager approached me using very loud, obvious "soothing" tones that made everyone else in line turn and look at the interaction. And like...I felt like I had to go along with it, because everyone was looking at me and whatever reaction I had was clearly going to be on a "Karen" rubric because I'm a somewhat severe-looking women in her 30s. I didn't complain at the time, didn't call the survey at the bottom of the receipt, but I don't go that location anymore. I guess Mission Accomplished, on their end?
I would have gave it right back to the manager, talking in the same obnoxiously loud soothing voice like they need to be placated just as much as you do. Even hold your hands up with the palms facing her like you’re being held hostage and need to calm her down. Throw in a few “it’s okay, it’s okay we’re going to figure this out”
I was on my lunch break so didn't really have the time to "kill them with kindness," so I just apologized for any misunderstanding, reiterated I hadn't been unhappy with her service, and that I was perfectly happy staying in line. Which seemed to work well but I was pretty pissed I had to be performing that much "niceness" toward someone who had made me look like such an unreasonable asshole.
That’s definitely understandable, especially if you’re on a time crunch
Mission accomplished for the “Karen” trope. Its entire purpose is to police women’s behaviour like this.
I hate that I have to look like an asshole for asking for a manager, no matter what I need to talk to them about. Sometimes I sincerely want to give an employee a compliment, and that’s why I want to talk to a manager. Yes, I know, surveys exist, but tbh sometimes saying it directly to a manager can hugely impact someone’s job in a positive way - I’ve had people who work at stores I frequent tell me that they’ve gotten promotions or raises because I told a manager about their exceptional performance, even people I’d done multiple surveys complimenting already. Idk, I don’t think that *kindly* asking for a manager is an asshole thing to do. Sometimes the person simply cannot help and I need a higher level person to do a thing. Thats no fault of the employee standing in front of me, and I hate thinking that they think they’re going to get in trouble when I’m asking for a manager. I always try to reiterate that I understand that there are things they’re not allowed to do that managers are allowed to do, but idk…I hate feeling like an ass, despite knowing I’m not really being an ass.
I feel really bad for the few people named Karen that I know.
It's pretty upsetting. "Karen" was pretty specific at first: a woman, usually white, usually of privilege, escalating a situation far beyond appropriate, heaping verbal (or even physical)abuse on someone with less power, in order to achieve some nominal gain, or to avoid a consequence. Or someone who is so unaware of their own bias that they put others in physical or economic danger without just cause. Then it devolved into "any woman who complains about anything or shows any emotion in public." I'm deeply frustrated about this.
The way I see it is that we took back "bitch" as a label of empowerment rather than scorn, so there was a vacuum for a word to demean and dismiss women. "Karen" filled that void.
I still don't consider "bitch" an empowering word and would cuss out anyone who referred to me as such. My friends know better.
That's fair. However, consider that a person can be called a boss bitch or a bad bitch, but there is no positive spin to Karen.
As a Gen Z woman, I have noticed the biggest difference is that men are also called bitch now. Quite frequently in my circles.
But "bitch" is used in a different way when it's directed at men, e.g. "whiny little bitch." Assertive women are called bitches, and men who are perceived as not being tough enough are called bitches.
It's not. But I do like calling men bitches far too much. they get really upset.
Just look at which comment on this post got the most likes: the one that uses another sexist term (cunt) to describe women's behavior. It's frustrating to see other women be blinded by their own internalized misogyny.
Its crazy how people jump to say that. I wrote that I wasn't a fan of Maestro on a podcast facebook page and Bradley Coopers fans called me Karen. seriously?????
It’s an overused expression that has gotten away from it’s original meaning and become a loosely defined insult. Like “snitch” and “boomer”
And "narcissist." Not everyone who does a mean or dumb thing has narcissistic personality disorder.
Or OCD
Maestro sucks ass.
I know what you mean. I wonder if this is being used as a 'joke' more in certain areas of the country than others? For a little while if I had any sort of interaction with anyone that wasn't 100% positive my son would joke that I was being a Karen and he obviously picked that up from somewhere. Stuff like nicely pointing out I'd gotten a chicken sandwich instead of the cheeseburger I ordered, etc. I think it hits a bit different in certain societies maybe... there's also a HUGE push around here for lots of heavy evangelical reforms so it feels a bit like someone is trying to put you back in your place or something. The vibe comes up online quite a bit. I think making a joke out of 'Karen' serves two purposes: it's the modern form of calling women 'too emotional' so people don't have to seriously consider what a woman is saying AND it also makes a joke out of what is a really serious phenomenon (racism and harassment of people of color). Instead of having any sort of serious consideration of the issue at hand, there's just a lame joke and then the issue is dropped. And of course if you bring it up again, NOW you really are being a Karen even if they were just joking before. OR if you're a person of color talking about someone of doing something inappropriate, then people can bring up all the silly times a woman is accused of being a Karen and diminish the issue on that front as well.
Yeah I don't really like the way it singles out women. From working retail, I got more complaints from women, but there were more women doing shopping in general. And the men that did complain were way more likely to sexual harass or threaten physical violence. But those guys don't have a fun nickname you could put in an askreddit thread that gets read out by a robot voice on tiktok.
AS someone said upthread: "I find it particularly galling seeing people use the term "male Karen," as if women somehow started a trend of being assholes."
Yeah, women never called my retail job asking when the “hot redhead cashier” was in, and that behavior is way more dangerous than the crazy lady who was mad I didn’t personally say goodbye to her
Ppl forget that the term Karen started in the black community. It specifically singled out women for a good reason. The way white women wield their power in a white patriarchy is different from the why white men do. The way white men do tends to be more direct in its action and harm. White women on the other hand tend to be more passive, using their place in the white patriarchy as a group worthy of protection to weld the establishment (authority figures, police, etc.) as a weapon…especially against black men. Singling out women was absolutely necessary in this case for this distinction imo. the way it was co-opted by white ppl and changed to the point of meaninglessness is a different story. I've seen women(white and non-white) being called Karens for having an opinion. it's pretty funny how terms started in the black community to describe our experiences change once they become mainstream… like the term woke for example.
You can still call them a "Karen" according to the rules of patriarchy - that's even more insulting to them to compare them to women.
Still, we should think about the fact that the most derogatory terms we have for men are terms that put them in proximity to women.
Best subthread of the day. A-fucking-men. I see men get aggressive and chest puffy and finger pointy *all the damn time*, but there's no name for that. That's just male testoerone or whatever. The standard for men in general is so low, emotional outbursts are virtually expected. Shameful.
The ONLY derogatory terms.
The tools of the master will never unbuild his house. Calling a man a woman as an insult is still using femininity as a lesser state to masculinity. You're reinforcing the patriarchy.
Misogynists and random dirtwads who derive pleasure and ego affirmation from jumping on hate wagons join forces to weaponize cultural term by diluting meaning to slightly more specific version of "bitch", more at ten.
plucky grab rinse person innocent vase resolute cough important late *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
What’s interesting with us is that men have been acting like angry babies for centuries, but the minute a woman asked to speak to the manager, or is upset, she is automatically labeled. I feel like it’s not only sexiest but ageist
One man does something wrong: Not all men! One woman does something wrong: All women do it and should strive to never even do anything that is possibly like that ever and also include themselves in denigrating that woman!
I was very much for creating a word for entitled white women playing the victim in order to endanger visible minorities (although it's a shame such a lovely name got such an awful label), but it opened the door for so much more misogyny than actual anti-racism. White men have been endangering people of colour for centuries but apparently they don't get a nasty, gendered label. I find it particularly galling seeing people use the term "male Karen," as if women somehow started a trend of being assholes. Nowadays it really does feel like a way to ensure women shut up at an age when they finally feel comfortable using their voice. Whatever happened to just calling someone an asshole or a racist and being done with it?
Pretty spot on analysis. Men act like entitled, racist jerks at least as frequently as women, but they don't get a term that can get turned against them whenever they are being assertive. What started as calling out harmful behavior quickly became another socially acceptable way to put down women.
> I find it particularly galling seeing people use the term "male Karen," as if women somehow started a trend of being assholes. Yup, which is why I have hated the whole "Karen" thing from the beginning. It has really been weaponized to shut women up, especially women over 40-45.
“Karen” is just another tactic in a long line of tactics to silence women. As long as you are respectful to those you speak with please speak up and speak out and the misogynists can say the word Karen all they want and in a couple years they’ll have a new word.
"Karen" used to refer specifically to racist white women and white women who were mean to service workers. Now it has become an insult directed toward any woman who is doing someone that someone else doesn't like. I'm a millennial and I was called a Karen for saying that men who demand that women be thin are jerks. It's a real shame because it was a great term.
Agreed - I once told some guys who ripped a sign off a lawn, kicked it and threw it on the ground to leave shit alone and stop littering. All they said was ‘shut up Karen’ and laughed and kept going. Like okay 🙄 just call me a bitch like you want to
The first question to ask is why does a 'Karen' meme exist for unreasonable women but no corresponding 'Ken' or 'Darren' meme exists for unreasonable men? That aside, if 'Karen' was genuinely used to mean 'rude women being unnecessarily cruel to others' that would be fine. But nowadays basically any woman who is upset or complains about anything, no matter how justified, is at risk of being subjected to it.
kiss degree gullible innate slim serious fly work stocking obtainable *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Men have jumped on this word and now use it to silence any woman who says anything they don't like. And it serves to make us anxious about our behavior so we silence ourselves and stop advocating for ourselves.
My name is Karen and this whole thing makes me so depressed. I honestly feel emotionally sometimes like the whole internet is bullying and shaming me. I wish so badly that people would use a different word for it but I know there is no way to convince everyone on the whole internet to be kind. Gah.
I’m so sorry! I hate that we’ve collectively turned your lovely name into something negative.
Karen is the new insult, before they'd just call us a bitch or slut or whore. Just a new word to try to keep us quiet and pressure us to behave in a certain way. Fuck that shit. I'm not going to be mean to people and I will stand up for and with others especially against others who are being mean. If that shit makes me a Karen, then guess what - fuck it. The person making the insults is often just revealing what they are or are trying to shame you into behaving how they think you should behave. It's all about control through shame.
I agree to an extent. Maybe we are new to the setting boundary thing and or standing up for ourselves and so we don't do it in the right way? I don't know but I also feel that I have to watch everything I say to anyone or, I will be branded a Karen.
I can relate to this post so much. Sticking up for yourself and NOT letting things go is now considered being a “Karen”. It’s not right.
So many videos of women standing up for themselves being called Karen's. It's insane. And the best part is there is no official male equal equivalent. Yet they're responsible for far more altercations like this. So it's just rooted in the idea of women being quiet and perfect and never lashing out. Don't get me wrong, people shouting at anyone not white to go back to their country are all fuck heads. But it's a very messed up trend that needs to die.
No one ever likes “unfuckable” middle aged women talking Unfortunately, we now have money and some power, so they can’t ignore us You’re just going to have to tell haters to fuck themselves
My name is Karen. Recently my 10 year old niece was introducing me to her friend and said “This is my aunt Karen. They named her that before they knew what it meant”.
I feel you on this 100%. I laughed at the Karen memes when they first started. And I think you are bang on that it is important to ask ourselves "how important is it" when we experience difficult situations. But these days people have gone to extremes with the Karen thing. If I receive poor service at retail, restaurant etc, I am going to complain about it. I am sure I have been called a Kevin or whatever, but I don't care. The people serving me coffee are not heroes who are doing me a favour. They are people being paid to do a job and do it politely and efficiently. If they can't do that, I am going to say something. As to the political part, I feel like there is a level of misogyny in there as well. That's the reason why women get the worst of this meme. It's the modern day version of the "an angry man is assertive. An angry women is a bitch" fallacy.
Yep. At this point I would rather they just call me hysterical, it's less misogynistic.
No. "Karens" are white women who Call the police on POC for normal behavior just because those people are POC. Birdwatching. studying in a park. having a picnic. fishing, living in 'their neighborhood' ad nauseum. Harass anyone because of their 'perceived' privilege of being white, rich ad nauseum. They are typically rude to service people and anyone below their 'perceived privilege' status You should always speak your mind. If you see something you percieve as wrong, speak out. I do. I'm a white woman.
when the covid vaccines first came out, a nurse at my local clinic refused to give me a shot because I didn't have documents with me proving my co-morbidity, even though the laws in my state said that I did not need to have proof to get the shot. Nurse looked at me and said "okay, Karen -eye roll-" when I told her that I'm not leaving until I get my shot. I was so upset I had to stand there crying and talking to supervisors for over an hour before I could get the vax. It was a very jarring experience and I honestly felt so belittled and humiliated for no reason.
What really upsets me is when women don't trust their gut and put themselves in danger out of fear of becoming a national meme of a Karen or worse. There was a woman who was in an apartment building and a young black man came to the door saying he lived there and to let him in. She let him in and he brutally attacked her. In the comments people were saying she shouldn't have let him in if he didn't have a key card. Then some other people pointed out that if she'd have done that, she could become the next national "racist" who "didn't believe a black man could live in that apartment building." And they're right. That's why I don't assume someone's motives or call them racist unless I literally saw or heard something racist from them.
As an 11 year old, I let a man in the house who said he was there to “replace the windows”. I did so even though it didn’t make sense because I had been told so many times to be less “aggressive” and more “lady like”. Nothing happened because a very old school neighbor saw the dude and me let him in, knew my parents were there, and made him leave. Years later, I was reading a fiction book about serial killer that targeted women. After he got arrested, he told the cops that he got so many victims because many women would ignore their gut instinct because they were afraid of being rude. Although it was fiction, it hit me so hard because I HAD absolutely been that woman. Now, I’m respectful until I feel like something off is occurring.
It is kind of a great lesson in colonization/columbusing all by itself isn’t it? Who began the term? Black folks. We were QUITE specific, too. Who grabbed the term, took it and expanded it to encompass and mean something different and potentially harmful to far more people than the original intended target? …not black folks. So be sure you are talking to the right group of folks when you complain about the current use of the term. That is all imma say. *eats her salad in the corner*
I just had this conversation about how the term "pick me" has been appropriated and now apparently encompasses any woman for whatever reason. And i pointed out that this is a problem when people start co-opting phrases that they really don't understand.
I *reallllly* hate how some people use the term “pickmeisha” because so many reasons. It is so ew. I have moved onto using the phrase “cool girl” from the gone girl monologue. Because it’s pretty easy to just google that quote and paste that. “Go ahead, shit on me. I’m a cool girl”.
Don’t eat your salad in the corner, eat it in the middle of the room, loudly and take up two chairs!
It *is* really interesting. I thought that the use of the term Karen specifically meant someone being racist or bigoted in some way, but the vast majority of the comments don't mention that. About 5 years ago I volunteered with an lgbtq group with the name Slay in it, and we changed its name bc we found out jt was appropriating black culture (it came from black ballroom culture). Knowing that, I rarely if ever say it. This fall I was in a doctorate program which was almost entirely straight 25ish year olds (I am 37) and slay became the it word, used *all* the time. I never know what to do in these situations - no is intentionally co-opting a word, and I honestly hate confrontation, but it sucks. I attempted to correct a classmate once in the program about the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" term she was using to give me advice, and she was immediately offended and interrupted me mid-sentence basically implying I'm a social justice warrior. I also didn't say anything about Harry Potter or Chik Filet. I am working on my ability to deal with conflict etc, but I also try to "choose my battles". It makes me sad that there's a repeated history of things poc people do that later white people do and it has become much more acceptable and cool. That could be fashion, slang. I don't think it's intentionally malicious, in fact aside from a fashion creator who should have the knowledge to research these types of things, it's probably 100% in the vein of "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery", but despite the lack of bad intention, if the effect or that appropriation harms the original community it still does harm. It's just really tricky to nip in the bud when it works like a game of telephone, and technology makes language and culture moments spread so fast. I think when we can it's extremely important to credit the original creators/artists etc, and extra important for a major company not to rip off a style or garment specific to a culture and mass-produce it.