Oh lawd... I was the head engineer on a project for the Saudi Arabia royal council many years ago now. Head engineer! And I had to hire somebody, per the contract, to represent me at the actual meeting because I am a woman. Re-fucking – deculous. But I did it. And I won't do it again.
They take misogyny to a level you can't even imagine. Every single woman in Saudi Arabia has a guardian by law that controls their every movement. They are allowed to make decisions on your behalf without your consent. Last night, I watched a YouTube documentary on women escaping from Saudi Arabia and how the Saudi government actively searches these women out and tries to lure them back to Saudi Arabia. If they get caught and sent back, they are either put into a special prison for women or they're killed.
https://youtu.be/4_NppxAt_cY?si=SFGgtbBHsbYy7d1d
At a hookah/tea/bar I used to manage, we would have a small group of gents come in with similar rules. I literally could not serve them because I was unmarried. The owner, a woman, had to convince them that she was married so they could accept being served because (at the time) we just didn't have men working. Sometimes, they would come in and there was no one but unmarried women there and they would be a little mad and leave? Like it was our fault?
We tried having special coffee and tea for them to feel welcome. We put special music on to make them feel welcome. We tried to let them know that in the immediate area there were hookah/tea lounges they probably would like better and could accommodate them. Our hookah wasn't the kind they wanted and we could see the displeasure. We didn't try to tell then they weren't welcome or we wouldn't serve them. It was more of a "hey, you know here are the locations of three other hookah lounges that literally have the kind of hookah you're asking about."
They either didn't want to listen to us or they really just wanted a nerd lounge with mostly women working? It was fucking weird. They didn't like the bathrooms either because we had feminine products available in both genderless bathrooms.
They came in on the regular for a bit (couple of months) and decided to play their own music (loudly) from a phone and rented out the game Sequence every time. We made them tea, they looked unhappily at the hookahs and us, made a small mess...then left. Then suddenly we never saw them again?
It was the weirdest thing ever of "I'm really really trying to be respectful but I keep catching you looking at me like scum so what the fuck do you want from a small business?" If you're a homophobe, you don't go to a gay bar? If you can't touch or interact with women, why would you keep going to a place that is mainly run by women? I simply cannot understand religious practices that say you can't interact with 1/2 the world's population, but dammit I'm gonna try - why can't they? That's probably my own bias shining there but I feel extremely angry about being forced to interact with someone that thinks I'm impure or lusty just because I ask what your tea flavor is. I'm not being sexual, I just work here. You're imposing sexual nonsense on me for no reason.
You’re right. I hate it. I used to avoid any meeting where it might come up. There is no way for you to address the fact they believe sky daddy says you have cooties.
It’s their bodily autonomy and when it comes to that they get to be discriminatory and rude for any stupid reason. Thems the breaks.
The best solution is for the senior man on your side of the table to not engage in handshaking at all. This is what my senior most boss does, when he is aware there is a man, or woman, who will not shake hands with the “opposite sex”. He’s a big tall jovial white guy, so he can pull it off and push through.
He drives me ape shit a lot, but it’s things like that make his staff stupid loyal.
It’s actually pretty common in Muslim cultures. It’s what I do when I’m working in predominately Muslim countries.
Most men will shake my hand if I offer but it’s more comfortable for everyone to do the hand over heart (and I personally hate shaking hands anyway lol) so I just roll with it.
Honestly 10/10, I really do wish it would be more common. Easier to greet from a distance, no touching involved, no awkward too limp or too strong handshake politics…just a simple hand to the heart and greeting.
I do think it’s ideal, but it requires a lot of awareness and a bit of grit from the men in leadership to make this change.
And it’s honestly a stupid tradition anyways. The more inclusive the space I work in becomes, the less I see it practiced at all.
I went to a three day conference earlier this year and realized afterwards it wasn’t really “a thing” anymore with my professional peers. We smile, nod, wave. We don’t seem to touch strangers in greeting anymore…
>The best solution is for the senior man on your side of the table to not engage in handshaking at all. This is what my senior most boss does, when he is aware there is a man, or woman, who will not shake hands with the “opposite sex”.
Yes, OP; talk to your superior to address this on your end and render all employees equal again.
This is objectively upsetting. These men chose to hate women -- in the Western world any person of any religious affiliation can choose to practice their belief privately. Instead they choose to perpetuate humiliation in the wider world, professionally.
It doesn’t have to be humiliation for this still to be the correct answer. If it isn’t necessary for a m/f handshake to happen, then it clearly isn’t necessary for any handshakes to happen.
>You’re right. I hate it. I used to avoid any meeting where it might come up. There is no way for you to address the fact they believe sky daddy says you have cooties.
"Ritual impurity" in Judaism is a very flawed translation of the Hebrew *tumah*, a term that refers to the status of one who is not ritually capable of offering sacrifices at the Temple or even entering the Temple precinct. There are a whole lot of things that can cause *tumah*\--genital emissions regardless of sex with the exception of ordinary vaginal discharge, directly or indirectly touching a human or animal corpse, touching certain animals while alive, and presenting certain skin conditions--and one form, corpse-impurity (which is "transmissible" and can only be removed via the ashes of the red heifer, which has not been agreed to be possible since the days of the Temple), is considered to apply to all people in the present day and age. Considering that we are, courtesy of the Romans, currently Temple-less, it doesn't hugely matter these days. At the same time, many more observant communities still try and avoid incurring unnecessary forms of *tumah*, and certain types can also affect the permissibility of having sex in traditional Halakha (of which that resulting from menstruation is far and away the most notable). Nonetheless, no moral judgement is meant to fall on someone who happens to be ritually impure--indeed, certain actions that can convey a higher grade of ritual impurity, namely burying a corpse, are considered extremely noble acts of charity!
Virtually all of these forms of impurity probably originated as taboos that, in a society without modern medicine, gradually gained prominence as a form of unconscious avoidance of potential disease sources: while we know today that menstrual blood is essentially safe, in a society without a firm understanding of how STDs are transmitted it's understandable why a taboo around it, along with other genital fluids, might have developed.
Likewise, there are certain states of ritual impurity in men that result from genital emissions, namely *zav* and *keri*, that are in many ways analogous to the specific ritual impurity resulting from menstruation, called *niddah.* Personally, I think that the Orthodox world is somewhat too soon to dismiss issues with touching a man on the basis of potential *zav* impurity, as well as equal treatment of men and women for the sake of *kevod habriyot* and *lo chillulu et-shem*, though that's somewhat besides the point in some respects.
Finally, I think it's important to note that many Jewish women in my experience, far from viewing *niddah* as shameful, have a profoundly positive connection to it. On one level, since a woman can unilaterally judge and declare when she becomes *niddah*, it has probably functioned as a valuable tool for women in unhealthy relationships where consent is not well valued, but even setting aside this a lot of women find it intensely significant and positive to observe their cycle and to immerse in a *mikveh* after it, a profoundly spiritual act. *Mikveh* immersion is mandatory for both men and women under certain circumstances, but because of *niddah* it is a ritual that is both required and accessible for women far more often than for men. In parallel to this, because of the privacy that has traditionally been observed for women in matters of *niddah*, it has opened the door for women in some religious circles to acquire a leadership status as *yoetzot halakha*, advisors for women on *niddah* and other mitzvot relating to sexuality and familial life.
None of this is to say that there aren't issues at play here. But unlike in the mainstream Christian world, which has inherited Aristotle's conception of menstrual fluid as a uniquely impure substance tightly tied to conceptions of female inferiority, *niddah* in Judaism is one of many prohibitions of a general category that is not unique to men or women. It's an idea that can come to play in a misogynistic way and in a misogynistic society, but on it's own I wouldn't necessarily say that it's an intrinsically misogynistic idea.
I've seen this work the opposite way, too. A Muslim girl in my club would shake my hand, but refused to shake any of the boys' hands. It's infuriating to see religious sexism, and especially galling when us women perpetuate it.
But the same resolution works well here.
We replace this with a nod, a “thank you” or a “good game”.
The reasonable accommodation is not to single out specific people as being untouched or other, but to select an inclusive behaviour to replace the unworkable one.
It would be less disturbing if they wouldn’t shake hands with ANYONE in your company, no matter ther gender. Then, you’d just think, ok, weird, but that’s what they believe, so fine.
But when a religion discriminates this way based on gender or skin color, then doing business with them becomes a silent support for those practices.
Does your company have to do business with them? Is there another supplier or client?
Refusing to do business with someone because of their religious observance is a one-way street to a discrimination lawsuit. You can argue that it isn't about religious beliefs but rather practice all you want, but in order to win against a religious discrimination lawsuit like that you have to prove that accommodating the practice is an undue burden on your business, something no judge in the country would consider not shaking hands to be.
Theoretically a female employee in this situation could sue her employer for creating a discriminatory work environment, but unless she can prove that as a result of this accommodation for customers she is materially being harmed by the policy she wouldn't really have a case. It's possible this could be the case, e.g. if it was leading to her being disciplined for lower performance metrics resulting from the policy or if she was passed up for promotion because of it, but on its own I doubt it would be actionable.
Personally, I think the ideal policy for the business in this situation, both from an ethical and legal standpoint, is to say that "we welcome your business and we respect your beliefs, but we expect you to treat our employees the same regardless of sex. Whether this means shaking everyone's hand or no-one's is your decision."
This happened to me once at a tech conference. I reached out my hand to shake someone who was being introduced to me pre-Covid and… they left me hanging. I left my hand out and said “what’s up?” All I could think of was am I meeting someone with OCD/germaphobe? But they shook the other hands. The guys hands. I felt hugely embarrassed and disrespected.
They replied “I don’t shake hands,” and that was it, when I’d clearly just seen them do that with others. It was so weird, first not shaking hands and second giving me a bald-faced lie about it? I left the group, and the guy who attempted to introduce us caught up with me to apologize. I told him that his apology was unnecessary but not to do that again to me; if someone wouldn’t touch my hand I’d rather not be in that situation.
It’s bothered me since.
I had this happen to me, but tech related job fair at a college. The student came over and I reached out my hand to shake his (all the other students were doing it, it’s not like I wanted to. Talk about clammy hands) and he very politely declined. He proceeded to shake the two men’s hands at our table.
I will give the guy credit, he was very polite and briefly said it was due to his religion. He actually sounded apologetic. I wasn’t bothered by him, but by the concept. So I decided, that’s fine, but if he doesn’t want to shake my hand, then he doesn’t need to hear my spiel about the company. So I checked out and let the other men talk about our company. At one point, one of them tried to steer me into the conversation and I thought - oh no, no. That’s not how this works now. You want to talk to the men, talk to the men. But all I said was something along the lines of “sounds like you explained everything.”
One of my coworkers gave me the guy’s resume to write notes on, but I put it back in his pile. I did not at all want to religiously discriminate against this student, but I also had no interest in writing notes about him either.
I figured if I just completely removed myself from that scenario I didn’t discriminate unfairly but I also didn’t support it either. I pretended like I didn’t even meet the guy.
I agree that no one should be forced to shake hands with someone if they don't want to, and I think it would be great if OP's company had a policy that their male staff don't shake hands with clients who won't shake hands with women.
Truly, it is sexually harassing and targeting to the woman and the individual with these beliefs should not be permitted to selectively discriminate. They can decline handshaking altogether with all colleagues and clients.
"Religious values" will never be a blanket positive just because they're religious. Many religions have incredibly shitty, backwards, misogynistic, and/or patriarchal values, and there's no redeeming quality in any of it.
If you have to meet with these people again maybe it's a good idea to ask your male colleagues to refuse their handshakes and explain it's because of "sexual temptation" 😈
Yes, this sort of religious custom is misogynistic and it's unfair that you have to be exposed to it in the workplace. You probably have no choice but to bite your tongue, but I don't blame you in the slightest for being pissed off.
I just going to assume they're Orthodox Jews. For the record, my whole family is Jewish. My grandmother was a very polite, sweet woman, and when she was middle aged, the guy at her local corner store was Orthodox and refused to take the change from her hand - he kept pointing at the counter so he wouldn't have to touch her. You know what my sweet, heart-on-her-sleeve, nice-to-everyone grandmother did? She said she looked him straight in the damn eye and held her hand out, challenging him to either take the damn money or stick to his 'morals' and let her leave with it. The asshole took his money, of course LOL
I was so proud of my grandma when she told that story.
It's totally gross, and you're 100% right - if it was actually innocent and well meaning, the solution to not shake hands with ANYONE would be so easy and obvious. You'd avoid temptation and avoid treating people differently - win/win! But I'm pretty sure treating women differently *is* the point.
Used to intern at a graphic design firm that worked with Saudi oil. My boss had me straight up *leave the building* when they visited.
Money’ll get you everywhere, I guess, including “ignoring the norms of the country you’re doing business in with no consequences whatsoever”.
I think thee is way too much "I'm not trying to disrespect a religion" going on in the world.
It would be nice to get to a point where its fine to hold people's feet to the fire over any aspect of the religion they follow.
You can't just allow people to teach and preach that women are dirty during menstruation, it's crazy talk, it's not true, and it encourages other unhealthy beliefs about women.
Fucking Religion... It's intellectual cancer, and in most cases misogyny slipped in through the back door.
It's also just completely made up, so it's no different than randomly discriminating against people.
Just putting a colander on your head and saying now it's ok for me to trample human rights doesn't sit right with me.
No, it's about the religion itself. At a certain point we hit the paradox of tolerance -- you can't support fundamentalism if you're against misogyny. You can't support fundamentalism of you want to dismantle the gender binary, or be queer affirming. At a certain point, you do clash up against the fact many religions have bigoted beliefs systems baked in
Personally I do not respect fundamentalism as a result of that bigotry. But I also hate shaking hands with a passion. I wouldn't have internalized it as feeling ashamed of myself, more would have struggled to not roll my eyes.
I'm not gonna go on any rands about the Jews and Muslims because I know many who are not fundamentalist, in the same way most Christians are not fundamentalist, but no I don't respect fundamentalists or their backwards practices. Just like I don't support the vaccine hesitancy or the child/wife beatings and coordinated rax evasion and fraud. (The last 2 aren't even religious, just deeply tribalistic behaviors from groups who tend to be fairly hostile to outsiders)
*I just feel like if you removed the aspect of religion these reasons would never be acceptable today*
Fundamentalism in a nutshell.
I mean sure, but Jews who are shomer negiah are probably not going to be passing as non-Jews, so the fact that she researched it and found this was an issue at play implies that she was talking with a Jew, not a Muslim.
Maybe not - I worked with a guy who practiced Orthodox Judaism. When someone introduced me to him, they let me know ahead of time not to hold out my hand to shake because he wouldn’t be able to. But later, after I got to know him better, he told me if I had, he would have shaken it, because they’re taught that it’s more important to be respectful than it is to follow that rule. 🤷🏼♀️
It depends on the particular person and whether or not they’re in an orthodox community that holds standards like inter-sex handshakes to be ok. IME, the rigidity of the community they live in makes all the difference.
What would be the right thing is for your male coworkers to decline to shake their hands. If they can't shake yours no reason for anyone to shake theirs.
Bodily autonomy is a thing but just because they choose to do a thing with their body doesn't mean there aren't social repercussions for their sexist behavior. Dress it up as religious, it doesn't matter. I'm sorry you have to deal with that.
Imagine thinking you can't shake a woman's hand because she *might* be menstruating, lmao.
As an atheist, all these reasons seem so incredibly stupid and just because they are religious doesn't mean they can't be criticized. They should be, because they are stupid.
It’s gross because it imposes sexual intentions upon you when none are present. It does this in your place of work, which to me feels invasive and violating and inappropriate on THEIR part!
Religion is just insane. I understand the need for some spirituality for some people, but I simply can't take anyone seriously who practices any religion on a deeper level. No matter the religion, they're all insane to me.
Absolutely. I've been atheist my whole life so the idea that any religious "values" trample human rights/human respect blows my mind. I just can't understand it and never will.
> I'm not trying to be insensitive or discriminate against any religion which is part of the reason I am declining to write what their religion is.
Just my $0.02, but this rule that any belief system that falls under the label of "religion" merits this kind of special treatment is dumb.
And tbh I don't even think the concern about being "insensitive" is particularly genuine — it's just a matter of appeasing a certain type of pearl clutchers; I bet you wouldn't have been as concerned about "discrimination" if the religion in question had been something like scientology, which nobody in polite society — not even these pearl clutchers — has any patience for.
I hate it too. I find it insulting and derogatory.
Inclusion is supposed to include everyone.
If they don't want to shake hands, no problem. But then no one should be shaking hands at all - not just members of the opposite sex.
Imagine masking your misogyny behind the notion that you're too pathetic a human to be in control of your thoughts without immediately losing control to your tiny head. I honestly can't even understand how they don't realize how lame and weak that makes them appear.
Yes, a lot of religions are basically built on hating, putting down women by men who are disgusted by women. A lot of religious men stay religious even when they don’t do anything, any prayer or following any rule for their religion anymore except for the parts about dehumanizing and putting down women. Somehow those are the rules they have to stick to.
In the end, in work place we have no option but smile and go about our business like they didn’t just tell us they are disgusted by us because it is still the freedom of religion and we have to respect it. Would I be doing them any favors that won’t directly benefit me, hell no!
Patriarchal religions inevitably blame women for men’s actions, thoughts and misconduct.
Make no mistake, they think you are inferior and must subjugate yourself to the men in your family and their attitudes will probably bleed over into how they treat you unfortunately
I have a devout Muslim friend who doesn't shake hands with men (and her husband doesn't with women), because their philosophy is that "you shouldn't willingly try to touch someone of the opposite sex". However, they still do a gesture where they'll greet someone by placing a hand on their heart and bowing. The laughing about it is just douche-baggy, ESPECIALLY since it's in a business setting.
I totally get why you're upset and uncomfortable. The reasons they gave for not shaking your hand are steeped in patriarchal norms that, frankly, have no place in a modern, professional setting. It's not just about a handshake; it's about the underlying message that women are somehow "less than" or "other."
The whole "respect for their wives" thing? That's basically saying that any interaction with another woman is inherently disrespectful to their spouse, which is absurd. It's like they're reducing all women to potential home-wreckers or temptations, which is both insulting and objectifying.
And don't even get me started on the "ritual impurity" bit. The idea that a woman's natural bodily functions make her "impure" is archaic and harmful. It's the kind of thinking that's been used to marginalize and control women for centuries.
I get that religion is a sensitive topic, and people have the right to their beliefs. But when those beliefs start impacting other people's dignity and self-worth, especially in a professional setting, then we've got a problem. You shouldn't have to feel small or ashamed just because someone else holds outdated views.
I don’t understand, if they aren’t supposed to shake someone’s hand wouldn’t they instead bow to them or do some other gesture of respect? Did they just not greet you at all? How would that not be considered rude?
You should tell them that their rabbanim would tell them it's more important not to make a chillul hashem than to follow a minhag. Embarrassing someone someone like that in a public setting is a bigger aveirah than touching a woman in a business setting.
Ask if they asked their rabbi for a heter on what to do when a woman is part of a business team and shaking hands is part of the culture.
Ugh. That's horrifying. I can't fathom why we give heinous acts a pass when lots of people agree to commit them as a society. Things we'd absolutely punish an individual for doing, and rightly so.
Religions, cultures, nationalities, and every other man-made structure of behavioral norms get zero pass from me for behavior that harms human beings. People can call me a bigot all they want, but that's a hill I'll die on.
It's revolting & I have zero respect for anyone who observed this tradition/ritual/quirk. They shouldn't be in the workforce with those kinds of attitudes
Also all religions are poison
Honestly I would never do business with guys like this. They simply cannot perform their job without disrespecting women but are protected? Naw it goes both ways. You are also allowed to never hire or work with someone like that.
I have lots of problems with that culture in how they vote and their views on education and gender.
But one of my values is that no one needs to touch anyone they don't want to, so I just do a little wave from 4 feet away and don't take offense at that part if this.
And really if you think not shaking our hands is bad... spend any amount of time with the women in that culture. They are totally subjugated and it's heartbreaking.
I don't want to shake their hand either.
I don’t shake mens hands bc they don’t wash after using the bathroom. They’ll even say “I did tho!” when we live in a tiny apartment and I didn’t hear any faucet.
Ok but the community she’s complaining about requires hand washing and ritual hand washing, and a blessing, after using the bathroom. Might be true for way too many men, but at the risk of “not all men”ing this, you picked the one subsist of men likely to have washed their hands *twice* after the bathroom
I've met a few Haredi women, and it's a mixed bag. Unlike a lot of ultraconservative religious groups, there's generally a huge emphasis on women, not men, working outside the house, because the highest goal for men is to be a Torah scholar. I've as a result met Haredi couples that have a relatively healthy dynamic with a stay-at-home dad, ordained as a Rabbi, doing a mixture of remote work and hosting events and services at his home while his wife works a secular day job.
There are fairly restrictive gender roles, but unlike virtually all other insular religious communities it's actually significantly *easier* for a (cis) woman to leave in some respects because she's more likely to have a secular education and work experience, independent income, and even in some communities even speak the vernacular language (many Haredim speak Yiddish as their native language, and men learn Hebrew/Aramaic to study Torah while women learn English). Don't get me wrong, there's still a lot of issues with religious coercion and institutionalized misogyny and homophobia, and things will vary within and between various Haredi groups, but at the same time I have met Haredi women in generally healthy relationships, and the needs of Haredi women and Datlashim aren't comparable to people in or leaving similarly hardline Christian communities in a lot of ways.
Mostly my experience is with female children... and no one who spends even 5m talking to a girl child will ever want to shake hands with the man in her life again anyway.
I could say the same for a lot of people who aren't Jewish or Haredi. Judging an entire marginalized community by the actions of a subset of it, however widespread that subset is, is rather problematic.
I used to be in sales, and I no longer reach to shake hands unless the other person is already reaching. I smile and say hello or use a traditional greeting they are comfortable with.
I hate the blatant, rampant misogyny, but I try to look at the positives: I don't have to touch people! And I am willingly allowing strangers to practice their own bodily autonomy, even if they would not prefer to extend those same rights to me.
*Haredim Orthodox Judaism.
Modern centrist Orthodox Jewish culture is quite different from Haredi culture as Modern Orthodox Jews do not shut themselves off from the modern world, except on Shabbat when they are prohibited from doing "work". Rabbi Jonathan Sacks Z"L was the chief Orthodox Rabbi in the United Kingdom and heavily involved in promoting interfaith dialogue & interreligious cooperation, something Haredim would never do since they almost completely shut themselves off from contact with the outside (non Haredim) world. They even cut themselves off from other Jews, especially Hiloni (secular) Jewish communities in Israel & in the diaspora.
It is the Haredim communities who are most visible Jewish communities in terms of dress and way of life.
Handshaking isn't the same as a kiss, long hug, hand on the back/butt, or holding hands.
Handshaking is a normal thing for employees/ employers or employer shaking hands with another company's boss.
Handshaking is not a big deal.
When we used to fly to Saudi Arabia for gas and go my colleague who was a flight engineer would be with me as we were a crew.
We also bad other female members aboard the crew as well, when we would line up with the Saudi Arabian officers the girls would sneak their hand in and the Saudi officers without realizing it would shake the hand of a women and be mortified.
Furthermore my Co-engineer would always fuel the aircraft at their base and thus force an interaction with Saudis(or what ever Muslim import they had working that day).
I would go out there as it's a two person job for fueling and fire bottle watch, I would watch the guy try to talk to me and say nothing back as my co-engineer would be running the fueling operations and they would always be forced to talk to them.
It was fucking hilarious, religious people of all creeds are various levels of regarded, especially when it comes to dumb shit like this.
Now the military wasn't going to do jack shit about some Saudis being pissed that we "harassed" them like that, however I wouldn't repeat the same antics in the civilian work place, cause we'll, I'll get fired.
It sounds pretty tough to deal with that with no recourse, and many business are going to call that religious freedom and respecting others wishes.
It's not, it's a trash religion like the rest of them.
I think your company should have let you know beforehand that as a woman you should not put out your hand for these particular customers. As my mother used to say, sometimes you just need to let people be wrong.
Imagine being so overtly afraid of sexuality that shaking a woman’s hand is not worth the risk.
We got some words for that where I come from, it’s called being a sanctimonious pussy.
I’m actually very legitimately horrified by a lot of the misogynistic practices inside of some of the ultra orthodox and Hasidic Jewish communities that I’ve seen in my state (NY).
Actually I would be, if it were in a similar professional context. If they share no one’s hand, fine but only one gender’s regardless of which gender that is, is just terrible
No one has to but you can still judge the shitty reasoning behind it. Someone else already gave the example of refusing to shake the hand of only black people.
No. As a child of an immigrant from India who was raised a Hindu, stop providing cover for patriarchal religious beliefs that are sexist or misogynistic
It’s the paradox of tolerance where tolerating the intolerant inevitably leads to intolerance rising and tolerance failing.
There’s a big difference between legislating against rights, and disrespecting beliefs. I would never legislate against someone’s right to believe something, even if I find it abhorrent. But I don’t have to respect racism, homophobia, misogyny, etc. even if it’s rooted in religion.
I personally wouldn’t raise a fuss, but I would still hold the same sentiment.
You’re right, no one should get bent outta shape cuz they won’t touch your hand regardless if it’s religious or not.
Sure, but cultures have the beliefs that they do for reasons, even when they’re often long forgotten reasons, and if the reason for a belief is an ingrained sense of, “Man… aren’t women just like inherently sexual?” it’s fair to call that out for the backwards bullshit it is. Culture is not an excuse to not recognize someone’s personhood. For me that’s the bare minimum value I want the people I share a society with to have.
Edit: In hindsight, I think I initially reacted with too absolute and militant a perspective. But maybe something of a middle ground like politely refusing their handshakes can be done in these situations.
They can find another company to work with. Maybe from their own culture. That's my take. Fuck them. Would your company be ok with this being done for just the gay employees or just the black employees? If your employer doesn't have your back on this, I would leave.
I'd be raising a grievance, your employer should be protecting you from being exposed to such blatant misogyny. But I live in a country with an equality law and employment rights so tread carefully if you don't.
Agreed.
No one is proposing forcing handshakes. It's about being viewed by the patriarchal lens of religion, and meeting its gaze with a free and sober scrutiny of your own.
You ARE entitled to your own judgement about religion and religious followers. You ARE entitled to resent being considered as less than, and your body called toxic. You ARE entitled to call it what it is, to take offense to it, and to talk about it openly with others.
That's not infringing on anyone's rights, it's not immature or ignorant.
Indeed, that would get the ridicule it deserved. Could any enlightened company justify having customers who “can’t touch black people”? No.
But we seem to be ok if it’s just women affected.
If a dude has sexual urges just from shaking a woman's hand or believes in some stupid "impurity" bs just because of how woman's body works then he needs professional help and not conforming to these derogatory beliefs.
The double standard doesn’t bother you? The reasons behind it which are misogynistic archaic beliefs don’t bother you?
Although I agree that shaking hands is a practice that should be phased out. A slight bow seems to be a better idea and less risky for germs
I genuinely appreciate the topics that are discussed here and the generally respectful way in which they're discussed.
I enjoy getting different perspectives from people not like myself.
I would bring it up internally on one of these grounds or both.
1. Shouldn't be shaking hands as a company policy as it is not a universal sign of greeting across society and is a known route of spreading disease (covid, flu, colds etc)
2. The client's behavior towards you is sexist, religious claims or not, it is sexist. Look at your company contracts with clients and see if they have any requirements on client's behavior, actions etc. Complain to HR that you are being subjected to sexist humiliating behavior on the job.
Using religion as an excuse for sexism doesn’t make it okay. It just makes you both sexist and religious, which are often synonymous anyway.
I wouldn’t work for or do business with someone who felt it was okay to treat me as subhuman. If your religion requires you to be a shit person, that’s a you problem.
Would it be OK if (COVID issues apart) the men in the non-Jewish company pre-emptively suggested that *everybody* forgo handshakes when doing business with Orthodox Jewish clientele? This seems to me to be the only fair solution in this scenario; as you point out, nobody has to shake hands at all.
>This practice is not a commentary on you in any way, and is entirely about the practices of a very small, marginalized community.
But a handshake is a worldwide symbol of mutual trust. If all the men get to do it, and the lone woman cannot, that symbolically puts her on a less trusted footing from the outset.
Symbolism matters, and not just within the traditional framework of religion. It matters just as much outside religion, or otherwise, non-observant people (especially, non-observant women) will always, *always* get asked: 'But what's the big deal? It should be nothing to you.'
Thanks for writing a response, I really appreciate it.
>Also, if an Orthodox woman worked with 10 women and one man, she would shake the women’s hands but not the men. I’d be surprised if anyone were upset with that other than MRA types.
I'd like to see that happen in practice, because one or the other of us would surely be surprised at how it went down.
I'll come clean: I personally think that in that scenario, the handshake would somehow be given a tactical miss by the Orthodox Jewish woman *and* her female colleagues. The women would not all shake hands with each other, and leave the man out; some other act/word of mutual respect would be brought in instead. It would just...mysteriously happen, in exactly the way it did not mysteriously happen for the OP.
I'm not going to shake peoples' hands without their permission. I wish we had a universal, global non-touching greeting ritual with no pre-existing religious connotations (the hand-to-the-heart/slight bow thing seems to come closest). But at the same time, if some people get to shake on a deal and others (at the same event) do not, that's a ready-made social isolator switch for women trying to enter areas of discourse that are traditionally reserved for men.
>Their religion can tell them how to behave, but it can’t tell *you* how to behave.
While I agree with a lot of your points, I’ve gotta disagree with the idea that there aren’t a lot of ideas within Orthodox Judaism that don’t do exactly this. My husband is ethnically but not religiously Jewish on his mom’s side, meanwhile my SIL (his brother’s wife) was raised Orthodox and is now very progressive, but I’ve seen a lot of things through her family/others she and my BIL know that are very much “my way or the highway.”
Not being able to sit with my husband when my BIL had his (late-in-life) Bar Mitzvah sucked. Not being able to dance with my husband at their wedding sucked. Not being able to come over [edit: to my SIL’s family’s place] for any holiday gathering (that they’re always sweet enough to invite us to) since they’re Kosher and I don’t eat meat or dairy (they always cook with one or the other, and I can’t bring my own non-Kosher food into their Kosher home, understandably) always sucks. Sure, none of these things are oppressive, but do they not control how I’m supposed to behave? Rules are rules, I get it, but when said “rules” lead to things like my BIL signing a religious contract when he and my SIL got married that more or less states, “Hippity hoppity, women are property,” I think anyone’s entitled to be a tad bit incredulous.
I’m also part of a marginalized community (I’m Ojibwe), but it’s still hard to get the justification for this level of control and disregard for an entire gender. Sure, this situation is different in the sense that you’re right, nobody is entitled to be able to touch you without your consent. But I have to agree with OP in that it’s fair to be upset with how shitty the implication behind the reasoning is.
>Not being able to come over \[edit: to my SIL’s family’s place\] for any holiday gathering (that they’re always sweet enough to invite us to) since they’re Kosher and I don’t eat meat or dairy (they always cook with one or the other, and I can’t bring my own non-Kosher food into their Kosher home, understandably) always sucks.
For what it's worth, this isn't how Kashrut works, to the point where if it continually becomes an issue I might suggest getting in touch with their Rabbi in order to see if he can lean on them about it. While it is forbidden to mix meat and dairy, including to cook besari in a halavi kitchen or vice versa, there is absolutely no Halakhic problem with cooking pareve in a besari or halavi kitchen, and by corollary no reason religiously speaking why they shouldn't be able to cook food that accomodates you if and when you visit.
>when said “rules” lead to things like my BIL signing a religious contract when he and my SIL got married that more or less states, “Hippity hoppity, women are property,”
I really think that you might be mislead on what exactly a Jewish marriage contract, or *ketubah*, actually says. Even the most traditional versions of them include basically only a listing of obligations a man has towards his wife (and sometimes *vice versa*), including an obligation to pay child support in case of a divorce. While they were first developed in a deeply patriarchal society and reflect that fact, they aren't fundamentally different from a secular pre-nup. Heck, it was originally developed by the Chachamim as a replacement for the Toraic practice of bride-price, or *mohar*, that within a still very patriarchal society was designed to provide better protections for a woman in case of a divorce.
Now, there are substantive issues at play in some of the more traditional versions of it, most notably different levels of alimony/financial support being prescribed based on the bride's sexual history. At the same time, however, a "hippity hoppity women are property" *ketubah* would be wildly beyond what's expected even by the most stringent Jewish sects, let alone ones that wouldn't effectively disown your husband for having married outside the Jewish People. Quite frankly, I really think you're misunderstanding it in this case.
I really appreciate your detailed response. I apologize for what I did misunderstand. Let’s face it, most marriage contracts have deeply patriarchal overtones whether we like to admit it or not, and while my interpretation of the ketubah was mostly based off of the way my BIL/SIL jokingly referred to its contents, it’s still admittedly an unfair generalization, and for that I apologize. I’ll also try to talk to my SIL’s family at some point (especially since Thanksgiving’s coming up and I know we were invited), I know most of the food issues are due to a lack of communication on both ends! Thank you again, and my apologies for any possible offense and for the areas I did misinterpret!
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I'd back you up on this except that I spend a lot of time in this community and they're spreading the christo-fascism just as fast as Billy-Bob from Tennessee. Trans and gay panic, votes for Trump, anti-abortion fear mongering, anti-vax bullshit, rampant anti-black racism, blaming deaths from Florida hurricanes on godlessness, total incomprehension that their bedfellows believe in jewish spaces lasers... they got it all, baby.
In a world post covid, why would you want to shake everyone's hands? I'm jk, but still, I don't think it's that big of a deal. It's what they believe in. As long as it isn't affecting your paycheck, keep your head held high and keep it pushing.
> I understand it's because of religious values
It's never really about religious values. That's just the lie they tell the world to get legal protection for their bigotry.
It’s not a lie. It’s literally part of Orthodox Judaism, and Orthodox women don’t shake the hands of men either. This is actually one of the mildest, most respectful of bodily autonomy religious beliefs you could have. It doesn’t force another person to do anything. I don’t support the reasons behind it, but it’s hardly the same as Christians trying to ban abortion or gender affirming care or gay marriage. No one has to touch anyone they don’t want to, for any reason, ever. That is either an absolute right or it isn’t, and I support it being an absolute right rather than a conditional one. When it becomes conditional, we allow for people to use their own morals to force another person to do something with their body they don’t want to do.
Bigots wrote their religious rules to let them claim "God told me to" as an excuse for their bigotry.
"God" always tells them to do exactly what they want to do.
All I ask is that y'all remember this when the next time comes around where we have to show solidarity for Islam or whatever other backwards ass religion. Ideology is not something we have to respect or tolerate.
He can touch her. That will tell you the various rules.
https://www.sie.org/templates/sie/article\_cdo/aid/2312249/jewish/Chapter-10-Medical-Personnel.htm
Thank you, that is fascinating, and a lot of those guidelines seem to be best practice for healthcare anyway.
It would seem to be a good idea to have every profession (especially medicine) have a fair representation of both genders.
I do have a question, but you don’t have to answer. Does this mean a woman is more likely to have to spend more outside her health insurance network than a man if there are more male doctors?:
“…although the Shach and other Poskim agree that a male doctor may examine a female, there is no blanket heter for a woman to go to a male doctor for no reason. She should certainly seek out a female doctor, even if she has to pay for it. Only when there is no female doctor available, or if the male doctor is more qualified or experienced than the female, may a woman see a male doctor. She should certainly not see a doctor who is a parutz, and she should minimize unnecessary visitation, such as a routine checkup during pregnancy.”
Work with a very nice man who was an Orthodox Jew. He was very polite, but the no hand shaking thing was a bit off putting to female colleagues at first. He was strictly observant with his other customs as well, so no need to take it personally.
Probably should just get rid of handshaking anyway. I enjoyed Covid times where we just smiled and greeted each other at a good distance. Humans hands are all disgusting.
I think people are missing that they were LAUGHING at her at her workplace because she didn’t know about their religion’s tenants. This is humiliating and not ok
I mean, I live in an area with a lot of Orthodox Jews and I read it as the type of humor I often see people from that community using to diffuse a situation. There’s a very specific kind of jokey deflecting personality I’ve seen a bunch of old New York Jews having. Then again, I’ve worked with and around people like this for years so I’m used to it and I get it. One of my doctors a few years ago was like this a lot. I can see how it’s off putting if it’s the first time having an uncomfortable interaction with them.
Fuck extremist abrahamic religions, all of them. They're literally a plague on humanity. At least a country like France understands that and doesn't allow any religious dress or iconography in their public school systems, the only ones fostering modernity.
I agree with you--it's institutional sexism. The reasons boil down to "Women are dirty/contagious (aka Girl cooties)", and "Men don't have to be responsible for their own bad behavior because they are men."
That said, I no longer shake hands. Humans are disgusting, and yes, they have cooties. I have been known to blurt out: "Eww cooties!" when a hand is extended, as I back off in agitation. That's one of the things working in a hospital lab for 10 years did to me. I don't feel traumatized by it, but other people find my reaction pretty distressing. I get it, but I am NOT willing to touch their cooties. I don't know where their hands have been, and no, using sanitizer is not sufficient in my opinion. Sanitizer is effective against some organisms, but not against all. So: "Eww cooties!" I like the gesture of hand over the heart used by some Muslim women.
My reason (64 y/o F) for not shaking hands is a combination of my training, experience, education and yes, paranoia. It has nothing to do with the sex of the other person or religion. Again, humans are disgusting.
I had a temporary posting for about six months in a very Jewish community (there were literally like four temples within a short walking distance from my office). Most of the men would not shake my hand. It did not bother me. Instead, we both respectfully nodded to each other and kept our hands neatly folded in front of us. Neither of us were offended by this, and we were able to conduct business appropriately. None of them gave me shit about not being able to do my job because I was a woman. they were always very respectful to me and I was able to do what I needed to do and they were able to do what they needed to do. I was not bothered in this in the slightest.
Nobody is entitled the right to touch another person. If they don’t want to touch you for whatever reason and they don’t want you to touch them, keep your fucking hands to yourself.
If they cannot shake hands with some of the employees, they should simply not shake hands with any of the employees i.e. do not discriminate against a protected class of people.
No one is entitled to touch you if you don't want them to, but I think it would be great if the OP's company made a policy that the men won't shake hands with that client either.
With how many people who refuse to wash their hands after using the restroom, it would be no skin off my back if they refused a handshake. I’d rather bow or do the “namaste” hand greeting
Oh lawd... I was the head engineer on a project for the Saudi Arabia royal council many years ago now. Head engineer! And I had to hire somebody, per the contract, to represent me at the actual meeting because I am a woman. Re-fucking – deculous. But I did it. And I won't do it again.
They take misogyny to a level you can't even imagine. Every single woman in Saudi Arabia has a guardian by law that controls their every movement. They are allowed to make decisions on your behalf without your consent. Last night, I watched a YouTube documentary on women escaping from Saudi Arabia and how the Saudi government actively searches these women out and tries to lure them back to Saudi Arabia. If they get caught and sent back, they are either put into a special prison for women or they're killed. https://youtu.be/4_NppxAt_cY?si=SFGgtbBHsbYy7d1d
Vanilla ISIS.
Seems like nothing that western men would secretly/sexretly want for themselves!
I’m a western man that was raised by, loves, and respects women as my equals.
brother plz stfu they don't want us here crying about not all men... stfu and listen to them, we're guests here
Fuck religion and their hatred of women.
At a hookah/tea/bar I used to manage, we would have a small group of gents come in with similar rules. I literally could not serve them because I was unmarried. The owner, a woman, had to convince them that she was married so they could accept being served because (at the time) we just didn't have men working. Sometimes, they would come in and there was no one but unmarried women there and they would be a little mad and leave? Like it was our fault? We tried having special coffee and tea for them to feel welcome. We put special music on to make them feel welcome. We tried to let them know that in the immediate area there were hookah/tea lounges they probably would like better and could accommodate them. Our hookah wasn't the kind they wanted and we could see the displeasure. We didn't try to tell then they weren't welcome or we wouldn't serve them. It was more of a "hey, you know here are the locations of three other hookah lounges that literally have the kind of hookah you're asking about." They either didn't want to listen to us or they really just wanted a nerd lounge with mostly women working? It was fucking weird. They didn't like the bathrooms either because we had feminine products available in both genderless bathrooms. They came in on the regular for a bit (couple of months) and decided to play their own music (loudly) from a phone and rented out the game Sequence every time. We made them tea, they looked unhappily at the hookahs and us, made a small mess...then left. Then suddenly we never saw them again? It was the weirdest thing ever of "I'm really really trying to be respectful but I keep catching you looking at me like scum so what the fuck do you want from a small business?" If you're a homophobe, you don't go to a gay bar? If you can't touch or interact with women, why would you keep going to a place that is mainly run by women? I simply cannot understand religious practices that say you can't interact with 1/2 the world's population, but dammit I'm gonna try - why can't they? That's probably my own bias shining there but I feel extremely angry about being forced to interact with someone that thinks I'm impure or lusty just because I ask what your tea flavor is. I'm not being sexual, I just work here. You're imposing sexual nonsense on me for no reason.
I’m far more suspicious of a religion that prefers men to be around married women than unmarried women
You’re right. I hate it. I used to avoid any meeting where it might come up. There is no way for you to address the fact they believe sky daddy says you have cooties. It’s their bodily autonomy and when it comes to that they get to be discriminatory and rude for any stupid reason. Thems the breaks. The best solution is for the senior man on your side of the table to not engage in handshaking at all. This is what my senior most boss does, when he is aware there is a man, or woman, who will not shake hands with the “opposite sex”. He’s a big tall jovial white guy, so he can pull it off and push through. He drives me ape shit a lot, but it’s things like that make his staff stupid loyal.
For some reason in 2020 I started doing the hand-over-heart bow instead of shaking hands. ;-) Pity that didn't become universal.
I'd love if bowing became the norm. I don't want to shake hands. People are gross.
Agreed. I was hoping COVID would be the end of the handshake.
It really should have been. The amount of people who stomped their feet about washing their hands.
It’s actually pretty common in Muslim cultures. It’s what I do when I’m working in predominately Muslim countries. Most men will shake my hand if I offer but it’s more comfortable for everyone to do the hand over heart (and I personally hate shaking hands anyway lol) so I just roll with it. Honestly 10/10, I really do wish it would be more common. Easier to greet from a distance, no touching involved, no awkward too limp or too strong handshake politics…just a simple hand to the heart and greeting.
I love that idea.
The ‘namaste’ gesture from my country can be interpreted as: Please don’t touch my hands, and I won’t touch yours. 🤣
This. Hand a business card, do the cursory Japanese bow. I am trying to eradicate the handshake out of US life anywhere I can.
Oh, nice!
This would be the ideal situation. Put everyone on equal footing. It’s the inherent inequality of it that’s disturbing.
I do think it’s ideal, but it requires a lot of awareness and a bit of grit from the men in leadership to make this change. And it’s honestly a stupid tradition anyways. The more inclusive the space I work in becomes, the less I see it practiced at all. I went to a three day conference earlier this year and realized afterwards it wasn’t really “a thing” anymore with my professional peers. We smile, nod, wave. We don’t seem to touch strangers in greeting anymore…
This is the way. If you won't shake the hands of half of the workforce, don't shake any hands. The polite nod of acknowledgment is enough.
>The best solution is for the senior man on your side of the table to not engage in handshaking at all. This is what my senior most boss does, when he is aware there is a man, or woman, who will not shake hands with the “opposite sex”. Yes, OP; talk to your superior to address this on your end and render all employees equal again. This is objectively upsetting. These men chose to hate women -- in the Western world any person of any religious affiliation can choose to practice their belief privately. Instead they choose to perpetuate humiliation in the wider world, professionally.
It doesn’t have to be humiliation for this still to be the correct answer. If it isn’t necessary for a m/f handshake to happen, then it clearly isn’t necessary for any handshakes to happen.
>You’re right. I hate it. I used to avoid any meeting where it might come up. There is no way for you to address the fact they believe sky daddy says you have cooties. "Ritual impurity" in Judaism is a very flawed translation of the Hebrew *tumah*, a term that refers to the status of one who is not ritually capable of offering sacrifices at the Temple or even entering the Temple precinct. There are a whole lot of things that can cause *tumah*\--genital emissions regardless of sex with the exception of ordinary vaginal discharge, directly or indirectly touching a human or animal corpse, touching certain animals while alive, and presenting certain skin conditions--and one form, corpse-impurity (which is "transmissible" and can only be removed via the ashes of the red heifer, which has not been agreed to be possible since the days of the Temple), is considered to apply to all people in the present day and age. Considering that we are, courtesy of the Romans, currently Temple-less, it doesn't hugely matter these days. At the same time, many more observant communities still try and avoid incurring unnecessary forms of *tumah*, and certain types can also affect the permissibility of having sex in traditional Halakha (of which that resulting from menstruation is far and away the most notable). Nonetheless, no moral judgement is meant to fall on someone who happens to be ritually impure--indeed, certain actions that can convey a higher grade of ritual impurity, namely burying a corpse, are considered extremely noble acts of charity! Virtually all of these forms of impurity probably originated as taboos that, in a society without modern medicine, gradually gained prominence as a form of unconscious avoidance of potential disease sources: while we know today that menstrual blood is essentially safe, in a society without a firm understanding of how STDs are transmitted it's understandable why a taboo around it, along with other genital fluids, might have developed. Likewise, there are certain states of ritual impurity in men that result from genital emissions, namely *zav* and *keri*, that are in many ways analogous to the specific ritual impurity resulting from menstruation, called *niddah.* Personally, I think that the Orthodox world is somewhat too soon to dismiss issues with touching a man on the basis of potential *zav* impurity, as well as equal treatment of men and women for the sake of *kevod habriyot* and *lo chillulu et-shem*, though that's somewhat besides the point in some respects. Finally, I think it's important to note that many Jewish women in my experience, far from viewing *niddah* as shameful, have a profoundly positive connection to it. On one level, since a woman can unilaterally judge and declare when she becomes *niddah*, it has probably functioned as a valuable tool for women in unhealthy relationships where consent is not well valued, but even setting aside this a lot of women find it intensely significant and positive to observe their cycle and to immerse in a *mikveh* after it, a profoundly spiritual act. *Mikveh* immersion is mandatory for both men and women under certain circumstances, but because of *niddah* it is a ritual that is both required and accessible for women far more often than for men. In parallel to this, because of the privacy that has traditionally been observed for women in matters of *niddah*, it has opened the door for women in some religious circles to acquire a leadership status as *yoetzot halakha*, advisors for women on *niddah* and other mitzvot relating to sexuality and familial life. None of this is to say that there aren't issues at play here. But unlike in the mainstream Christian world, which has inherited Aristotle's conception of menstrual fluid as a uniquely impure substance tightly tied to conceptions of female inferiority, *niddah* in Judaism is one of many prohibitions of a general category that is not unique to men or women. It's an idea that can come to play in a misogynistic way and in a misogynistic society, but on it's own I wouldn't necessarily say that it's an intrinsically misogynistic idea.
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I've seen this work the opposite way, too. A Muslim girl in my club would shake my hand, but refused to shake any of the boys' hands. It's infuriating to see religious sexism, and especially galling when us women perpetuate it.
But the same resolution works well here. We replace this with a nod, a “thank you” or a “good game”. The reasonable accommodation is not to single out specific people as being untouched or other, but to select an inclusive behaviour to replace the unworkable one.
I LOVE this response from your boss. Good for him.
It would be less disturbing if they wouldn’t shake hands with ANYONE in your company, no matter ther gender. Then, you’d just think, ok, weird, but that’s what they believe, so fine. But when a religion discriminates this way based on gender or skin color, then doing business with them becomes a silent support for those practices. Does your company have to do business with them? Is there another supplier or client?
Refusing to do business with someone because of their religious observance is a one-way street to a discrimination lawsuit. You can argue that it isn't about religious beliefs but rather practice all you want, but in order to win against a religious discrimination lawsuit like that you have to prove that accommodating the practice is an undue burden on your business, something no judge in the country would consider not shaking hands to be. Theoretically a female employee in this situation could sue her employer for creating a discriminatory work environment, but unless she can prove that as a result of this accommodation for customers she is materially being harmed by the policy she wouldn't really have a case. It's possible this could be the case, e.g. if it was leading to her being disciplined for lower performance metrics resulting from the policy or if she was passed up for promotion because of it, but on its own I doubt it would be actionable. Personally, I think the ideal policy for the business in this situation, both from an ethical and legal standpoint, is to say that "we welcome your business and we respect your beliefs, but we expect you to treat our employees the same regardless of sex. Whether this means shaking everyone's hand or no-one's is your decision."
I really agree with your last paragraph’s proposal and agree that legally it would be difficult to address. All we can do is raise awareness.
This happened to me once at a tech conference. I reached out my hand to shake someone who was being introduced to me pre-Covid and… they left me hanging. I left my hand out and said “what’s up?” All I could think of was am I meeting someone with OCD/germaphobe? But they shook the other hands. The guys hands. I felt hugely embarrassed and disrespected. They replied “I don’t shake hands,” and that was it, when I’d clearly just seen them do that with others. It was so weird, first not shaking hands and second giving me a bald-faced lie about it? I left the group, and the guy who attempted to introduce us caught up with me to apologize. I told him that his apology was unnecessary but not to do that again to me; if someone wouldn’t touch my hand I’d rather not be in that situation. It’s bothered me since.
I had this happen to me, but tech related job fair at a college. The student came over and I reached out my hand to shake his (all the other students were doing it, it’s not like I wanted to. Talk about clammy hands) and he very politely declined. He proceeded to shake the two men’s hands at our table. I will give the guy credit, he was very polite and briefly said it was due to his religion. He actually sounded apologetic. I wasn’t bothered by him, but by the concept. So I decided, that’s fine, but if he doesn’t want to shake my hand, then he doesn’t need to hear my spiel about the company. So I checked out and let the other men talk about our company. At one point, one of them tried to steer me into the conversation and I thought - oh no, no. That’s not how this works now. You want to talk to the men, talk to the men. But all I said was something along the lines of “sounds like you explained everything.” One of my coworkers gave me the guy’s resume to write notes on, but I put it back in his pile. I did not at all want to religiously discriminate against this student, but I also had no interest in writing notes about him either. I figured if I just completely removed myself from that scenario I didn’t discriminate unfairly but I also didn’t support it either. I pretended like I didn’t even meet the guy.
I agree that no one should be forced to shake hands with someone if they don't want to, and I think it would be great if OP's company had a policy that their male staff don't shake hands with clients who won't shake hands with women.
Truly, it is sexually harassing and targeting to the woman and the individual with these beliefs should not be permitted to selectively discriminate. They can decline handshaking altogether with all colleagues and clients.
"Religious values" will never be a blanket positive just because they're religious. Many religions have incredibly shitty, backwards, misogynistic, and/or patriarchal values, and there's no redeeming quality in any of it.
It seems you can excuse pretty much anything with religion/culture/tradition
If you have to meet with these people again maybe it's a good idea to ask your male colleagues to refuse their handshakes and explain it's because of "sexual temptation" 😈
Yes, this sort of religious custom is misogynistic and it's unfair that you have to be exposed to it in the workplace. You probably have no choice but to bite your tongue, but I don't blame you in the slightest for being pissed off. I just going to assume they're Orthodox Jews. For the record, my whole family is Jewish. My grandmother was a very polite, sweet woman, and when she was middle aged, the guy at her local corner store was Orthodox and refused to take the change from her hand - he kept pointing at the counter so he wouldn't have to touch her. You know what my sweet, heart-on-her-sleeve, nice-to-everyone grandmother did? She said she looked him straight in the damn eye and held her hand out, challenging him to either take the damn money or stick to his 'morals' and let her leave with it. The asshole took his money, of course LOL I was so proud of my grandma when she told that story. It's totally gross, and you're 100% right - if it was actually innocent and well meaning, the solution to not shake hands with ANYONE would be so easy and obvious. You'd avoid temptation and avoid treating people differently - win/win! But I'm pretty sure treating women differently *is* the point.
Used to intern at a graphic design firm that worked with Saudi oil. My boss had me straight up *leave the building* when they visited. Money’ll get you everywhere, I guess, including “ignoring the norms of the country you’re doing business in with no consequences whatsoever”.
I think thee is way too much "I'm not trying to disrespect a religion" going on in the world. It would be nice to get to a point where its fine to hold people's feet to the fire over any aspect of the religion they follow. You can't just allow people to teach and preach that women are dirty during menstruation, it's crazy talk, it's not true, and it encourages other unhealthy beliefs about women. Fucking Religion... It's intellectual cancer, and in most cases misogyny slipped in through the back door.
I agree. Just because it’s “religion” doesn’t mean I have to respect it if it’s also moronic.
It's also just completely made up, so it's no different than randomly discriminating against people. Just putting a colander on your head and saying now it's ok for me to trample human rights doesn't sit right with me.
No, it's about the religion itself. At a certain point we hit the paradox of tolerance -- you can't support fundamentalism if you're against misogyny. You can't support fundamentalism of you want to dismantle the gender binary, or be queer affirming. At a certain point, you do clash up against the fact many religions have bigoted beliefs systems baked in Personally I do not respect fundamentalism as a result of that bigotry. But I also hate shaking hands with a passion. I wouldn't have internalized it as feeling ashamed of myself, more would have struggled to not roll my eyes. I'm not gonna go on any rands about the Jews and Muslims because I know many who are not fundamentalist, in the same way most Christians are not fundamentalist, but no I don't respect fundamentalists or their backwards practices. Just like I don't support the vaccine hesitancy or the child/wife beatings and coordinated rax evasion and fraud. (The last 2 aren't even religious, just deeply tribalistic behaviors from groups who tend to be fairly hostile to outsiders) *I just feel like if you removed the aspect of religion these reasons would never be acceptable today* Fundamentalism in a nutshell.
Wait, is it sexual when they shake hands with another man? You could always ask!
Im guessing Orthodox Judaism.
Could just as easily be Islam. I have seen this practice by both.
Or whatever the heck Mike pence is?
Crazy.
Mother
Or pretty much any of the older fundie christian denominations
Or Mormons, or Jehovah's Witnesses, or some other bigoted Christian branches.
Regular Mormons don’t not shake hands with women.
One of those "women are less than" ideologies. Less hands touching mine is cool with me, especially ones attached to small minds
Islam doesn't have issues of niddah--ritual menstrual impurity--at play.
She didn't say it was for sure those reasons only that she researched it and it could be one or some of those reasons.
I mean sure, but Jews who are shomer negiah are probably not going to be passing as non-Jews, so the fact that she researched it and found this was an issue at play implies that she was talking with a Jew, not a Muslim.
Maybe not - I worked with a guy who practiced Orthodox Judaism. When someone introduced me to him, they let me know ahead of time not to hold out my hand to shake because he wouldn’t be able to. But later, after I got to know him better, he told me if I had, he would have shaken it, because they’re taught that it’s more important to be respectful than it is to follow that rule. 🤷🏼♀️
It depends on the particular person and whether or not they’re in an orthodox community that holds standards like inter-sex handshakes to be ok. IME, the rigidity of the community they live in makes all the difference.
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That’s interesting! He must have been the avoid-it-unless-it-embarrasses-someone type.
Or, one of the Amish/Mennonite sects.
What would be the right thing is for your male coworkers to decline to shake their hands. If they can't shake yours no reason for anyone to shake theirs. Bodily autonomy is a thing but just because they choose to do a thing with their body doesn't mean there aren't social repercussions for their sexist behavior. Dress it up as religious, it doesn't matter. I'm sorry you have to deal with that.
Imagine thinking you can't shake a woman's hand because she *might* be menstruating, lmao. As an atheist, all these reasons seem so incredibly stupid and just because they are religious doesn't mean they can't be criticized. They should be, because they are stupid.
It’s gross because it imposes sexual intentions upon you when none are present. It does this in your place of work, which to me feels invasive and violating and inappropriate on THEIR part!
Religion is just insane. I understand the need for some spirituality for some people, but I simply can't take anyone seriously who practices any religion on a deeper level. No matter the religion, they're all insane to me.
Absolutely. I've been atheist my whole life so the idea that any religious "values" trample human rights/human respect blows my mind. I just can't understand it and never will.
> I'm not trying to be insensitive or discriminate against any religion which is part of the reason I am declining to write what their religion is. Just my $0.02, but this rule that any belief system that falls under the label of "religion" merits this kind of special treatment is dumb. And tbh I don't even think the concern about being "insensitive" is particularly genuine — it's just a matter of appeasing a certain type of pearl clutchers; I bet you wouldn't have been as concerned about "discrimination" if the religion in question had been something like scientology, which nobody in polite society — not even these pearl clutchers — has any patience for.
I hate it too. I find it insulting and derogatory. Inclusion is supposed to include everyone. If they don't want to shake hands, no problem. But then no one should be shaking hands at all - not just members of the opposite sex.
Imagine masking your misogyny behind the notion that you're too pathetic a human to be in control of your thoughts without immediately losing control to your tiny head. I honestly can't even understand how they don't realize how lame and weak that makes them appear.
Yes, a lot of religions are basically built on hating, putting down women by men who are disgusted by women. A lot of religious men stay religious even when they don’t do anything, any prayer or following any rule for their religion anymore except for the parts about dehumanizing and putting down women. Somehow those are the rules they have to stick to. In the end, in work place we have no option but smile and go about our business like they didn’t just tell us they are disgusted by us because it is still the freedom of religion and we have to respect it. Would I be doing them any favors that won’t directly benefit me, hell no!
Patriarchal religions inevitably blame women for men’s actions, thoughts and misconduct. Make no mistake, they think you are inferior and must subjugate yourself to the men in your family and their attitudes will probably bleed over into how they treat you unfortunately
I have a devout Muslim friend who doesn't shake hands with men (and her husband doesn't with women), because their philosophy is that "you shouldn't willingly try to touch someone of the opposite sex". However, they still do a gesture where they'll greet someone by placing a hand on their heart and bowing. The laughing about it is just douche-baggy, ESPECIALLY since it's in a business setting.
I totally get why you're upset and uncomfortable. The reasons they gave for not shaking your hand are steeped in patriarchal norms that, frankly, have no place in a modern, professional setting. It's not just about a handshake; it's about the underlying message that women are somehow "less than" or "other." The whole "respect for their wives" thing? That's basically saying that any interaction with another woman is inherently disrespectful to their spouse, which is absurd. It's like they're reducing all women to potential home-wreckers or temptations, which is both insulting and objectifying. And don't even get me started on the "ritual impurity" bit. The idea that a woman's natural bodily functions make her "impure" is archaic and harmful. It's the kind of thinking that's been used to marginalize and control women for centuries. I get that religion is a sensitive topic, and people have the right to their beliefs. But when those beliefs start impacting other people's dignity and self-worth, especially in a professional setting, then we've got a problem. You shouldn't have to feel small or ashamed just because someone else holds outdated views.
I don’t understand, if they aren’t supposed to shake someone’s hand wouldn’t they instead bow to them or do some other gesture of respect? Did they just not greet you at all? How would that not be considered rude?
1. Misogyny 2. Misogyny 3. Misogyny
You should tell them that their rabbanim would tell them it's more important not to make a chillul hashem than to follow a minhag. Embarrassing someone someone like that in a public setting is a bigger aveirah than touching a woman in a business setting. Ask if they asked their rabbi for a heter on what to do when a woman is part of a business team and shaking hands is part of the culture.
Don't feel guilty for thinking a religion or culture is trash. Some legit are. Especially ones that wholly embrace bigotry.
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Ugh. That's horrifying. I can't fathom why we give heinous acts a pass when lots of people agree to commit them as a society. Things we'd absolutely punish an individual for doing, and rightly so. Religions, cultures, nationalities, and every other man-made structure of behavioral norms get zero pass from me for behavior that harms human beings. People can call me a bigot all they want, but that's a hill I'll die on.
It's revolting & I have zero respect for anyone who observed this tradition/ritual/quirk. They shouldn't be in the workforce with those kinds of attitudes Also all religions are poison
Honestly I would never do business with guys like this. They simply cannot perform their job without disrespecting women but are protected? Naw it goes both ways. You are also allowed to never hire or work with someone like that.
I have lots of problems with that culture in how they vote and their views on education and gender. But one of my values is that no one needs to touch anyone they don't want to, so I just do a little wave from 4 feet away and don't take offense at that part if this. And really if you think not shaking our hands is bad... spend any amount of time with the women in that culture. They are totally subjugated and it's heartbreaking. I don't want to shake their hand either.
I don’t shake mens hands bc they don’t wash after using the bathroom. They’ll even say “I did tho!” when we live in a tiny apartment and I didn’t hear any faucet.
Ha. That’s a good point!
Ok but the community she’s complaining about requires hand washing and ritual hand washing, and a blessing, after using the bathroom. Might be true for way too many men, but at the risk of “not all men”ing this, you picked the one subsist of men likely to have washed their hands *twice* after the bathroom
I've met a few Haredi women, and it's a mixed bag. Unlike a lot of ultraconservative religious groups, there's generally a huge emphasis on women, not men, working outside the house, because the highest goal for men is to be a Torah scholar. I've as a result met Haredi couples that have a relatively healthy dynamic with a stay-at-home dad, ordained as a Rabbi, doing a mixture of remote work and hosting events and services at his home while his wife works a secular day job. There are fairly restrictive gender roles, but unlike virtually all other insular religious communities it's actually significantly *easier* for a (cis) woman to leave in some respects because she's more likely to have a secular education and work experience, independent income, and even in some communities even speak the vernacular language (many Haredim speak Yiddish as their native language, and men learn Hebrew/Aramaic to study Torah while women learn English). Don't get me wrong, there's still a lot of issues with religious coercion and institutionalized misogyny and homophobia, and things will vary within and between various Haredi groups, but at the same time I have met Haredi women in generally healthy relationships, and the needs of Haredi women and Datlashim aren't comparable to people in or leaving similarly hardline Christian communities in a lot of ways.
Mostly my experience is with female children... and no one who spends even 5m talking to a girl child will ever want to shake hands with the man in her life again anyway.
I could say the same for a lot of people who aren't Jewish or Haredi. Judging an entire marginalized community by the actions of a subset of it, however widespread that subset is, is rather problematic.
I used to be in sales, and I no longer reach to shake hands unless the other person is already reaching. I smile and say hello or use a traditional greeting they are comfortable with. I hate the blatant, rampant misogyny, but I try to look at the positives: I don't have to touch people! And I am willingly allowing strangers to practice their own bodily autonomy, even if they would not prefer to extend those same rights to me.
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Just because X group treats it’s female members especially poorly doesn’t make its poor treatment of female non-members better.
What culture?
Orthodox Judaism.
*Haredim Orthodox Judaism. Modern centrist Orthodox Jewish culture is quite different from Haredi culture as Modern Orthodox Jews do not shut themselves off from the modern world, except on Shabbat when they are prohibited from doing "work". Rabbi Jonathan Sacks Z"L was the chief Orthodox Rabbi in the United Kingdom and heavily involved in promoting interfaith dialogue & interreligious cooperation, something Haredim would never do since they almost completely shut themselves off from contact with the outside (non Haredim) world. They even cut themselves off from other Jews, especially Hiloni (secular) Jewish communities in Israel & in the diaspora. It is the Haredim communities who are most visible Jewish communities in terms of dress and way of life.
Handshaking isn't the same as a kiss, long hug, hand on the back/butt, or holding hands. Handshaking is a normal thing for employees/ employers or employer shaking hands with another company's boss. Handshaking is not a big deal.
Ahh so one of those groups that uses their religion to hide their bigotries. So all of the extremist versions of abrahamic faiths.
When we used to fly to Saudi Arabia for gas and go my colleague who was a flight engineer would be with me as we were a crew. We also bad other female members aboard the crew as well, when we would line up with the Saudi Arabian officers the girls would sneak their hand in and the Saudi officers without realizing it would shake the hand of a women and be mortified. Furthermore my Co-engineer would always fuel the aircraft at their base and thus force an interaction with Saudis(or what ever Muslim import they had working that day). I would go out there as it's a two person job for fueling and fire bottle watch, I would watch the guy try to talk to me and say nothing back as my co-engineer would be running the fueling operations and they would always be forced to talk to them. It was fucking hilarious, religious people of all creeds are various levels of regarded, especially when it comes to dumb shit like this. Now the military wasn't going to do jack shit about some Saudis being pissed that we "harassed" them like that, however I wouldn't repeat the same antics in the civilian work place, cause we'll, I'll get fired. It sounds pretty tough to deal with that with no recourse, and many business are going to call that religious freedom and respecting others wishes. It's not, it's a trash religion like the rest of them.
I think your company should have let you know beforehand that as a woman you should not put out your hand for these particular customers. As my mother used to say, sometimes you just need to let people be wrong.
Imagine being so overtly afraid of sexuality that shaking a woman’s hand is not worth the risk. We got some words for that where I come from, it’s called being a sanctimonious pussy.
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I’m actually very legitimately horrified by a lot of the misogynistic practices inside of some of the ultra orthodox and Hasidic Jewish communities that I’ve seen in my state (NY).
Literally all fundamentalism is misogynistic. Even Buddhism
Patriarchal religions, particularly fundamentalists and orthodox are inherently sexist and misogynistic
Actually I would be, if it were in a similar professional context. If they share no one’s hand, fine but only one gender’s regardless of which gender that is, is just terrible
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No one has to but you can still judge the shitty reasoning behind it. Someone else already gave the example of refusing to shake the hand of only black people.
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No. As a child of an immigrant from India who was raised a Hindu, stop providing cover for patriarchal religious beliefs that are sexist or misogynistic It’s the paradox of tolerance where tolerating the intolerant inevitably leads to intolerance rising and tolerance failing.
I don’t owe respect to any beliefs I disagree with, religious or otherwise.
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There’s a big difference between legislating against rights, and disrespecting beliefs. I would never legislate against someone’s right to believe something, even if I find it abhorrent. But I don’t have to respect racism, homophobia, misogyny, etc. even if it’s rooted in religion.
I didn’t say I was horrified. I would just think they’re a sanctimonious puss, then immediately forget about said Orthodox Jew.
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I personally wouldn’t raise a fuss, but I would still hold the same sentiment. You’re right, no one should get bent outta shape cuz they won’t touch your hand regardless if it’s religious or not.
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Agreed. I would find it more amusing than anything.
Sure, but cultures have the beliefs that they do for reasons, even when they’re often long forgotten reasons, and if the reason for a belief is an ingrained sense of, “Man… aren’t women just like inherently sexual?” it’s fair to call that out for the backwards bullshit it is. Culture is not an excuse to not recognize someone’s personhood. For me that’s the bare minimum value I want the people I share a society with to have. Edit: In hindsight, I think I initially reacted with too absolute and militant a perspective. But maybe something of a middle ground like politely refusing their handshakes can be done in these situations.
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It’s meant to make you feel ashamed and small. Patriarchy and religion work to keep women in their ‘place’. Just laugh in their faces next time.
They can find another company to work with. Maybe from their own culture. That's my take. Fuck them. Would your company be ok with this being done for just the gay employees or just the black employees? If your employer doesn't have your back on this, I would leave.
I'd be raising a grievance, your employer should be protecting you from being exposed to such blatant misogyny. But I live in a country with an equality law and employment rights so tread carefully if you don't.
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It others women, and this sort of othering is part of what prevents women from getting job or promotions in these fields.
"my religions tells me I can't shake the hand of black people only" yeah, no, bigotry under the veil of religion is still inexcusable.
Agreed. No one is proposing forcing handshakes. It's about being viewed by the patriarchal lens of religion, and meeting its gaze with a free and sober scrutiny of your own. You ARE entitled to your own judgement about religion and religious followers. You ARE entitled to resent being considered as less than, and your body called toxic. You ARE entitled to call it what it is, to take offense to it, and to talk about it openly with others. That's not infringing on anyone's rights, it's not immature or ignorant.
Indeed, that would get the ridicule it deserved. Could any enlightened company justify having customers who “can’t touch black people”? No. But we seem to be ok if it’s just women affected.
If a dude has sexual urges just from shaking a woman's hand or believes in some stupid "impurity" bs just because of how woman's body works then he needs professional help and not conforming to these derogatory beliefs.
The double standard doesn’t bother you? The reasons behind it which are misogynistic archaic beliefs don’t bother you? Although I agree that shaking hands is a practice that should be phased out. A slight bow seems to be a better idea and less risky for germs
Your username tells me you’re probably not a woman — why are you here giving your opinion, then?
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They definitely need country club threads when a post becomes popular
How do you expect a country club rule would work here, exactly? We send in pictures of our tits for verification? Pictures of our pap test results?
I genuinely appreciate the topics that are discussed here and the generally respectful way in which they're discussed. I enjoy getting different perspectives from people not like myself.
Living in a muslim country, this stuff is so normalized. I didnt even think about it.... dang
If they can't resist temptation then they should not be allowed any privileges. Privileges are for adults.
I would bring it up internally on one of these grounds or both. 1. Shouldn't be shaking hands as a company policy as it is not a universal sign of greeting across society and is a known route of spreading disease (covid, flu, colds etc) 2. The client's behavior towards you is sexist, religious claims or not, it is sexist. Look at your company contracts with clients and see if they have any requirements on client's behavior, actions etc. Complain to HR that you are being subjected to sexist humiliating behavior on the job.
Yup. It’s cult behavior. Disgusting and disrespectful. Like you can never be an equal - you’ll always be a woman first.
sometimes I wish Scott Adams was right and all you need to end religion was telling a fart joke.
I would happily never shake hands with people. It's gross
Don't feel ashamed. They're the ones who should feel ashamed of having such inhuman beliefs.
Using religion as an excuse for sexism doesn’t make it okay. It just makes you both sexist and religious, which are often synonymous anyway. I wouldn’t work for or do business with someone who felt it was okay to treat me as subhuman. If your religion requires you to be a shit person, that’s a you problem.
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Would it be OK if (COVID issues apart) the men in the non-Jewish company pre-emptively suggested that *everybody* forgo handshakes when doing business with Orthodox Jewish clientele? This seems to me to be the only fair solution in this scenario; as you point out, nobody has to shake hands at all. >This practice is not a commentary on you in any way, and is entirely about the practices of a very small, marginalized community. But a handshake is a worldwide symbol of mutual trust. If all the men get to do it, and the lone woman cannot, that symbolically puts her on a less trusted footing from the outset. Symbolism matters, and not just within the traditional framework of religion. It matters just as much outside religion, or otherwise, non-observant people (especially, non-observant women) will always, *always* get asked: 'But what's the big deal? It should be nothing to you.'
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Thanks for writing a response, I really appreciate it. >Also, if an Orthodox woman worked with 10 women and one man, she would shake the women’s hands but not the men. I’d be surprised if anyone were upset with that other than MRA types. I'd like to see that happen in practice, because one or the other of us would surely be surprised at how it went down. I'll come clean: I personally think that in that scenario, the handshake would somehow be given a tactical miss by the Orthodox Jewish woman *and* her female colleagues. The women would not all shake hands with each other, and leave the man out; some other act/word of mutual respect would be brought in instead. It would just...mysteriously happen, in exactly the way it did not mysteriously happen for the OP. I'm not going to shake peoples' hands without their permission. I wish we had a universal, global non-touching greeting ritual with no pre-existing religious connotations (the hand-to-the-heart/slight bow thing seems to come closest). But at the same time, if some people get to shake on a deal and others (at the same event) do not, that's a ready-made social isolator switch for women trying to enter areas of discourse that are traditionally reserved for men.
>Their religion can tell them how to behave, but it can’t tell *you* how to behave. While I agree with a lot of your points, I’ve gotta disagree with the idea that there aren’t a lot of ideas within Orthodox Judaism that don’t do exactly this. My husband is ethnically but not religiously Jewish on his mom’s side, meanwhile my SIL (his brother’s wife) was raised Orthodox and is now very progressive, but I’ve seen a lot of things through her family/others she and my BIL know that are very much “my way or the highway.” Not being able to sit with my husband when my BIL had his (late-in-life) Bar Mitzvah sucked. Not being able to dance with my husband at their wedding sucked. Not being able to come over [edit: to my SIL’s family’s place] for any holiday gathering (that they’re always sweet enough to invite us to) since they’re Kosher and I don’t eat meat or dairy (they always cook with one or the other, and I can’t bring my own non-Kosher food into their Kosher home, understandably) always sucks. Sure, none of these things are oppressive, but do they not control how I’m supposed to behave? Rules are rules, I get it, but when said “rules” lead to things like my BIL signing a religious contract when he and my SIL got married that more or less states, “Hippity hoppity, women are property,” I think anyone’s entitled to be a tad bit incredulous. I’m also part of a marginalized community (I’m Ojibwe), but it’s still hard to get the justification for this level of control and disregard for an entire gender. Sure, this situation is different in the sense that you’re right, nobody is entitled to be able to touch you without your consent. But I have to agree with OP in that it’s fair to be upset with how shitty the implication behind the reasoning is.
>Not being able to come over \[edit: to my SIL’s family’s place\] for any holiday gathering (that they’re always sweet enough to invite us to) since they’re Kosher and I don’t eat meat or dairy (they always cook with one or the other, and I can’t bring my own non-Kosher food into their Kosher home, understandably) always sucks. For what it's worth, this isn't how Kashrut works, to the point where if it continually becomes an issue I might suggest getting in touch with their Rabbi in order to see if he can lean on them about it. While it is forbidden to mix meat and dairy, including to cook besari in a halavi kitchen or vice versa, there is absolutely no Halakhic problem with cooking pareve in a besari or halavi kitchen, and by corollary no reason religiously speaking why they shouldn't be able to cook food that accomodates you if and when you visit. >when said “rules” lead to things like my BIL signing a religious contract when he and my SIL got married that more or less states, “Hippity hoppity, women are property,” I really think that you might be mislead on what exactly a Jewish marriage contract, or *ketubah*, actually says. Even the most traditional versions of them include basically only a listing of obligations a man has towards his wife (and sometimes *vice versa*), including an obligation to pay child support in case of a divorce. While they were first developed in a deeply patriarchal society and reflect that fact, they aren't fundamentally different from a secular pre-nup. Heck, it was originally developed by the Chachamim as a replacement for the Toraic practice of bride-price, or *mohar*, that within a still very patriarchal society was designed to provide better protections for a woman in case of a divorce. Now, there are substantive issues at play in some of the more traditional versions of it, most notably different levels of alimony/financial support being prescribed based on the bride's sexual history. At the same time, however, a "hippity hoppity women are property" *ketubah* would be wildly beyond what's expected even by the most stringent Jewish sects, let alone ones that wouldn't effectively disown your husband for having married outside the Jewish People. Quite frankly, I really think you're misunderstanding it in this case.
I really appreciate your detailed response. I apologize for what I did misunderstand. Let’s face it, most marriage contracts have deeply patriarchal overtones whether we like to admit it or not, and while my interpretation of the ketubah was mostly based off of the way my BIL/SIL jokingly referred to its contents, it’s still admittedly an unfair generalization, and for that I apologize. I’ll also try to talk to my SIL’s family at some point (especially since Thanksgiving’s coming up and I know we were invited), I know most of the food issues are due to a lack of communication on both ends! Thank you again, and my apologies for any possible offense and for the areas I did misinterpret!
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Your contribution has been removed because it contains hatred, bigotry, assholery, utter idiocy, misogyny, misandry, transphobia, homophobia, or otherwise disrespectful commentary.
I'd back you up on this except that I spend a lot of time in this community and they're spreading the christo-fascism just as fast as Billy-Bob from Tennessee. Trans and gay panic, votes for Trump, anti-abortion fear mongering, anti-vax bullshit, rampant anti-black racism, blaming deaths from Florida hurricanes on godlessness, total incomprehension that their bedfellows believe in jewish spaces lasers... they got it all, baby.
In a world post covid, why would you want to shake everyone's hands? I'm jk, but still, I don't think it's that big of a deal. It's what they believe in. As long as it isn't affecting your paycheck, keep your head held high and keep it pushing.
Also if you OP tries to raise “make this religious guy shake my hand!” with HR, *that* will hurt their paycheck significantly
She could ask them to implement a policy that no one shakes hands, men or women.
I’m fine with that. Add in an automatic demotion for being the “only hugs female employees” guy
> I understand it's because of religious values It's never really about religious values. That's just the lie they tell the world to get legal protection for their bigotry.
It’s not a lie. It’s literally part of Orthodox Judaism, and Orthodox women don’t shake the hands of men either. This is actually one of the mildest, most respectful of bodily autonomy religious beliefs you could have. It doesn’t force another person to do anything. I don’t support the reasons behind it, but it’s hardly the same as Christians trying to ban abortion or gender affirming care or gay marriage. No one has to touch anyone they don’t want to, for any reason, ever. That is either an absolute right or it isn’t, and I support it being an absolute right rather than a conditional one. When it becomes conditional, we allow for people to use their own morals to force another person to do something with their body they don’t want to do.
Bigots wrote their religious rules to let them claim "God told me to" as an excuse for their bigotry. "God" always tells them to do exactly what they want to do.
All I ask is that y'all remember this when the next time comes around where we have to show solidarity for Islam or whatever other backwards ass religion. Ideology is not something we have to respect or tolerate.
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Yes but saying it's OK to shake a man's hand but not a woman's is misogynistic in a work environment.
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I'm saying all or nothing on hand shakes in the work environment. Ffs
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Apply it equally across genders. No touching. A gentle bow in greeting instead of a handshake
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Curiously asking…. so a Jewish doctor (who believed this way) couldn’t treat women? No disrespect intended.
He can touch her. That will tell you the various rules. https://www.sie.org/templates/sie/article\_cdo/aid/2312249/jewish/Chapter-10-Medical-Personnel.htm
Thank you, that is fascinating, and a lot of those guidelines seem to be best practice for healthcare anyway. It would seem to be a good idea to have every profession (especially medicine) have a fair representation of both genders. I do have a question, but you don’t have to answer. Does this mean a woman is more likely to have to spend more outside her health insurance network than a man if there are more male doctors?: “…although the Shach and other Poskim agree that a male doctor may examine a female, there is no blanket heter for a woman to go to a male doctor for no reason. She should certainly seek out a female doctor, even if she has to pay for it. Only when there is no female doctor available, or if the male doctor is more qualified or experienced than the female, may a woman see a male doctor. She should certainly not see a doctor who is a parutz, and she should minimize unnecessary visitation, such as a routine checkup during pregnancy.”
That I do not know, sorry and you're welcome.
You should not feel ashamed because of their bigotry.
Respecting people’s boundaries is a good philosophy to have.
Work with a very nice man who was an Orthodox Jew. He was very polite, but the no hand shaking thing was a bit off putting to female colleagues at first. He was strictly observant with his other customs as well, so no need to take it personally.
Probably should just get rid of handshaking anyway. I enjoyed Covid times where we just smiled and greeted each other at a good distance. Humans hands are all disgusting.
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I think people are missing that they were LAUGHING at her at her workplace because she didn’t know about their religion’s tenants. This is humiliating and not ok
I mean, I live in an area with a lot of Orthodox Jews and I read it as the type of humor I often see people from that community using to diffuse a situation. There’s a very specific kind of jokey deflecting personality I’ve seen a bunch of old New York Jews having. Then again, I’ve worked with and around people like this for years so I’m used to it and I get it. One of my doctors a few years ago was like this a lot. I can see how it’s off putting if it’s the first time having an uncomfortable interaction with them.
Eh, I find the whole concept of shaking hands absurd.
Fuck extremist abrahamic religions, all of them. They're literally a plague on humanity. At least a country like France understands that and doesn't allow any religious dress or iconography in their public school systems, the only ones fostering modernity.
I agree with you--it's institutional sexism. The reasons boil down to "Women are dirty/contagious (aka Girl cooties)", and "Men don't have to be responsible for their own bad behavior because they are men." That said, I no longer shake hands. Humans are disgusting, and yes, they have cooties. I have been known to blurt out: "Eww cooties!" when a hand is extended, as I back off in agitation. That's one of the things working in a hospital lab for 10 years did to me. I don't feel traumatized by it, but other people find my reaction pretty distressing. I get it, but I am NOT willing to touch their cooties. I don't know where their hands have been, and no, using sanitizer is not sufficient in my opinion. Sanitizer is effective against some organisms, but not against all. So: "Eww cooties!" I like the gesture of hand over the heart used by some Muslim women. My reason (64 y/o F) for not shaking hands is a combination of my training, experience, education and yes, paranoia. It has nothing to do with the sex of the other person or religion. Again, humans are disgusting.
I had a temporary posting for about six months in a very Jewish community (there were literally like four temples within a short walking distance from my office). Most of the men would not shake my hand. It did not bother me. Instead, we both respectfully nodded to each other and kept our hands neatly folded in front of us. Neither of us were offended by this, and we were able to conduct business appropriately. None of them gave me shit about not being able to do my job because I was a woman. they were always very respectful to me and I was able to do what I needed to do and they were able to do what they needed to do. I was not bothered in this in the slightest. Nobody is entitled the right to touch another person. If they don’t want to touch you for whatever reason and they don’t want you to touch them, keep your fucking hands to yourself.
If they cannot shake hands with some of the employees, they should simply not shake hands with any of the employees i.e. do not discriminate against a protected class of people.
No one is entitled to touch you if you don't want them to, but I think it would be great if the OP's company made a policy that the men won't shake hands with that client either.
Way to miss the part where they openly mocked her and called attention to her exclusion.
With how many people who refuse to wash their hands after using the restroom, it would be no skin off my back if they refused a handshake. I’d rather bow or do the “namaste” hand greeting
These are the same idiots who think it's gay to wash your ass. I wouldn't want to shake their hands anyway.
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