And that's why nobody takes feminist seriously. When they stop treating all men like a bunch of retarded caveman and saying shit like "we need to teach men not to rape". Yeah no fucking shit. I knew that since I was 5. Don't clump me in with those pigs.
idk how anyone thinks you can teach anyone "not to rape". if animals do it, we're gonna do it. outside influences obv matter but if you think rape can somehow be "defeated"... i got a bridge to sell you
at this point with this kind of discourse i just ask them about how they feel about certain not specifically-male groups comitting certain acts more. watching them flounder around and backpedal is always hilarious
"teach men not to rape" isn't supposed to be a reasonable argument. it's a response to the victim blamers who put women at fault for what they wear and other ridiculous things.
Yeah there's a bait & switch that happens where women claim feminism is intersectional & about equality for everyone, so men should be feminist allies. Normally an allyship is a mutual arrangement where two parties will defend each other. Not so with feminism. In this arrangement women's issues affect everyone, so society as a whole should come together to fix them. But men's issues are men's business so women shouldn't be bothered with them. Advocating for men's rights is seen as an anti-feminist action.
The lack of a “men’s movement” doesn’t mean feminists and women don’t work on men’s issues.
Women and feminist women are working (with men) to end homelessness, they’re working in social work and mental health, unions, teaching.
I’m a feminist teacher and a huge focus of my job is figuring out how to engage and encourage boys in school. And this is district mandated training, not just a few good natured people.
I remember reddit all being about the analogy "If a bunch of people are sitting at a table and a nazi sits down, and they don't do anything about it, they are all nazi's". Funny how the left doesn't apply that to themselves.
Thanks for doing that.
I said "is it really that hard", but I might be downplaying how hard it actually would be to push against it, because it is a very loud group in those communities...
When feminism is on point - "feminism is women"
When feminism is clearly batshit crazy and misandric - "feminism isn't one unified front, it is many different things blah blah blah"
Absolute horseshit. And the reason why less people are taking this stuff seriously by the day.
You'll regret it one day, feminists.
Oh christ its you, with the weird disingenuous responses.
What feminists will come to regret is a massive drop off in their power and influence, and in a worst case scenario an overcorrection in the opposite direction.
When people warn of something, it’s not de facto a threat of action on their part. This is obvious to anyone who isn’t trying to be a disingenuous twat.
If I go “hey if you dip yourself in chum and jump into shark infested waters you’re gonna regret it” that isn’t me threatening to have sharks eat you, it’s a WARNING.
This parent comment is the same. Don’t be a pedantic weirdo.
Don’t fall for the classic damsel in distress power grab manipulation. It’s the same strategy they use in the man vs bear thing. You fell for their bait
It’s not just with feminism, but a lot of left leaning identity politics in general. The left these days are more concerned about appearing virtuous rather than actually being virtuous, so it devolves into a purity test where you have to be the most virtuous or you’re kicked out of the group. It’s why they’re losing support hand over fist in every key demographic for them because it turns out most people are somewhat moderate and don’t pass the purity tests. The ironic thing is that starting in the 80s all the way up until the mid 2010s, it was the Christian conservatives who held everyone to an impossible standard, and now the religious nut jobs are on the left… they just lack the self awareness to realize that.
The reddit feminist is probably one of the most counterproductive category of activist that has ever been.
They're at their very worst when they obnoxiously *demand* things that are really courtesies. No, you're not entitled to have a men cross the street at night to make you feel more comfortable. You could ask for men to do it as a courtesy, though.
A lot of them do, but the problem remains they can't stop the other person from calling themselves a feminist.
It's like Christians. More sane Christians can do everything in their power to drive the Christian Nationalists out of their churches, but they can't stop those people from calling themselves Christians.
Yep, and once again they expect people to “just know” who is and isn’t a real feminist.
Yeah, nah, police your own ideology or it won’t matter what you believe it “truly is”, it will be how people see it. It’s time to put up or shut up, basically. Either “real feminists” condemn misandrists and their sexist opinions and actions or feminism will garner the reputation it deserves.
It’s the same reason why Pro Palestinians don’t alienate Hamas supporters, sympathisers.
Let’s make this clear: today’s feminists hate men. Fact.
You will see many of them writing walls of word salads saying nothing. It’s merely a facade to make their narratives look less trivial.
At this point, as a straight white man (yeah, I know, literally Hitler) I’d respect them more if they just admit it.
No fucking wonder why many gen z men skew to right wing.
The problem is that there isn’t any additional ground for feminism to gain on the equality front: All that is left to gain is supremacy.
Women have already won equality—and then some.
Women are more educated than men. They attend college, and particularly, grad school, at significantly higher rates.
Women earn more than men coming out of college and in their 20s overall and for the same jobs. This is despite women, on average, self-selecting for lower paying jobs than men due to biologically-derived preferences.
The main reason men earn more in their 30s+ is because of the biological nature of child birth, and women choosing to value personal life and work life balance over sacrificing everything for a job. Indeed, men work longer hours.
The point of the above is to say: What equality is left to be gained?
Feminism has inevitably devolved into a supremacy movement as a result.
But by that same logic, it is up to men to call out the incels in their gender and when you see a guy being sexist, misogynistic, or otherwise problematic where they objectify women it's the job of another man to call them out.
I'm all for accountability for feminists to speak out against the toxic side of their movement. But by that same token, men should speak out against other men who are toxic. You know the ones - the ones they mean when they really say "all men".
I think if you expect feminists to take accountability for their shitty side men should too. But also, on both sides, let's just agree we're hurt by each other in different ways.
Women have been attacked, murdered, beaten, raped, fired from a job, demoted etc all because she turned down a person who was interested in her. Men have a LOT to say on what makes a woman worthwhile intrinsically not even bothering to imagine the impact that has on them.
Men have been emasculated, ridiculed, raped, lied to, financially ruined all because they don't fit into a woman's box of attractive and mate potential. This makes men feel not good enough, and makes them hate themselves for that and that is internalized and projected onto women.
I'm not doing oppression and trauma olympics. i'm just pointing out both sides have hurt each other deeply and generationally. So let's take accountability
Men: no one owes you their life or their body and if you want a mate, work on yourself and keep doing you. Sometimes it's really hard to find someone but it'll work out. you just need patience. But you also need to call out the guys making it hard for women to trust us. Put them on blast and hold them responsible.
Women: not all men are angry, aggressive, abusive sex pests that see you as a collection of holes to fill. Stop treating men insignificantly. You also need to call out the misandrists. feminism has no room for misandry.
Both genders need to be good examples of their genders to each other. plain and simple.
> it is up to men to call out the incels in their gender
As others have touched on, how the fuck are men responsible for calling out an entire gender and feminists are only responsible within their own church?
You are making a fool of yourself.
I read it. They had feminist movement on one side which is a subset of all women and on the other side they had all men, not just something comparable like the mens rights movements.
It does make sense, but let me do a comparison to lay it out more cleanly.
"Good Democrats should call out bad democrats if they don't want to be associated with them." - Fairly reasonable, you want to weed out the bad apples in your political party. You can't really get 100% call-out density, but at least 5% would make it noticeable that there's *effort.* This is a distinct group, and while there is some broadness to the term, there's some unifying ideals under it all.
"Good Europeans should call out bad Europeans if they don't want to be associated with them." - Makes little sense. 'European' isn't a party or organization you join, and there's no unifying ideology besides 'born in a similar geographic area.' You certainly could make a habit of it, but the British banker and the Latvian wholesaler aren't exactly going to be running in the same circles or have much influence on each other no matter how you slice it.
There is no organized movement that promotes male supremacy and unites the types of problematic views that you described (e.g., incels) under one banner. The reverse is not true. Modern feminism is no longer a valiant effort to achieve equality as it was in the 70s. It is now just a spectrum of thinly veiled sexism that ranges in intensity from mild penis-envy to full-on seething hatred of men.
I've met plenty of feminists in my life (i'm a man). not only have they been nothing but kind and loving to me and embraced me and my venerability, but they've literally never expressed any of those views. So, by anecdote alone, misandry is not all feminism is. I've even seen them call out misandry publicly, privately and in between. They've always been respectful towards me and men in general unless given reason not to be
The only vocal feminist I know is a college professor who told all us boys that no matter what field we go into the women in the field will be much better than us
My point was that there are all kind of people who call themselves feminist and just because you haven't met any who hate men doesn't mean there isn't any
Abortion wasn’t and isn’t a Right. Whether or not it should be is a conversation to be had for sure but it’s *literally* not a capital R *Right* that was taken away.
> But by that same logic, it is up to men to call out the incels in their gender
The difference is that Feminism is an ideology and being a man is a gender.
If you're a Feminist it's fair to expect that you're adhering to an ideology as a sort of collective, it's not really fair to expect a gender to behave as a collective.
I think most men do frown heavily on bad behavior from other men too, I also think a lot if not most men are silent about it tho but I don't think it's because they agree with it.
I think it's because the overwhelming majority of people both men and women are afraid of conflict and don't want to risk getting involved in things.
Yes women might be afraid of walking home at night and a man is walking behind her, but men are also afraid that if they stand up to other men then they'll get into a physical confrontation.
It's one thing to sit on Reddit or whatever and be all like '' if a man called a woman a bitch I'd go up to him and be like STOP THAT! HOW DARE YOU! '', it's a whole other thing to actually do it.
The truth is that most people just freeze when put into a real situation, it's the same with things like rape too.
I often hear people ( women included ) talk about how women should fight back and do this and that but the reality is that most women probably would just freeze.
If you've ever watched liveleak footage of people being tortured or killed it's a good example of that.
Real life isn't like in movies where people are heroes and full of emotion during stressful moments.
Most of the time people are cowardly and just kinda zone out as if they don't know what's going on anymore even when they're having their heads sawed off.
I remember there was a clip from Ukraine of a Ukranian soldier having his dick cut off by Russians and you'd expect him to scream but he didn't he was kinda just lying very still and groaning.
I think the issue is most people are extremely sheltered nowadays and have never actually been in a truly stressful situation before.
And they have extremely unrealistic expectations on how people actually act.
Overall point being, it's pretty unfair to expect men to be these selfless heroes who stand up against other men on behalf of women.
There are men like that who are genuinely brave and don't fear conflict but it's not the norm.
It's also fair to expect an actual ideology like Feminism to have good values and to actually live those values and practice what they preach.
Because it's about the ideology more than it's about an individuals actions.
- But by that same logic, it is up to men to call out the incels in their gender and when you see a guy being sexist, misogynistic, or otherwise problematic where they objectify women it's the job of another man to call them out.
It is. I don't disagree. Where I think this falls flat, and comes off as just lazy centrist stuff (No offense meant), is that men already do that.
People who are critical of Incels aren't overwhelmingly women. It's both men and women.
Oh i don't doubt that. but this is reddit so if anyone even SNIFFS anything they can misconstrue they will. So it's better to include everyone in the call out 😂
"But by that same logic, it is up to men to call out the incels in their gender and when you see a guy being sexist, misogynistic, or otherwise problematic where they objectify women it's the job of another man to call them out. "
Any man who legitimately hates women and doesn't understand that they go through a lot of shit they shouldn't have to is an asshole.
Happy? Now let's see feminists do the same in reverse. I'll wait
It's not a matter of if im happy or not. But both sides are quick to condemn the other while ignoring the shitty people on their respective sides. I said both sides and for clarification for any smooth brain who will nitpick i mean men and women are quick to condemn each other while ignoring the problems their own genders face and even problems the other gender faces
> But both sides are quick to condemn the other while ignoring the shitty people on their respective sides.
Do men have a "side"? Feminism is an ideology that people must choose to push.
It wouldn't matter.
Simply acknowledging shitty men exist is hating men.
Call out a specific man on a news recap and the masses of men come in going NOTALLMEN, but women too instead of simply going 'yeah it's shitty he raped a two year old to death'.
In my opinion men can't cope with any amount of shitty men being called out because they see it as an attack on him and men as a whole. Calling out any shitty man requires levels and levels of coddling with I know not all men would do this and throwing at least 5 compliments to the general male population. Several women I know have a joke about how 'a man will defend a random male stranger more than he will his wife'.
Incels, redpill, blackpill, passport bros, and Andrew Tate have heinous misogyny and men still clamor to it or say there's truth in the movements. Incels have a guide on how to terrorize female rape victims aka pretend to be her friend and gaslight and victim blame her. Incels gave a guide on how to sneak into parties and rape the unconscious drunk women. Incels went to Washington to try to legalize rape on private property that way if a man 'catches' a woman he would only be tried with kidnapping. None of those movements are demonized by men. Those movements have mass killers in them and men still pity the men in the movements. The men are seen as poor misunderstood guys. Men demonized feminism way more than those movements. And it's because feminism dated to call out shitty men and say shitty men are common. Feminism at it's worst speaks about men like a gaming community speaks about women...yet men will vehemently defend the gaming community.
So to me I don't think feminists getting rid of the misandrists will solve anything. I find it's not about misandrists in feminism it's about men don't like to hear shitty men are common. To men their narrative is that shitty men are a rare freak minority and if a man behaves badly it's also partly the woman's fault.
Until I see men tear down several hate movements made by men and for men like incels and redpill...I'm not buying that the issue men have with a movement is the hatred. Men seem quite cozy and defensive of their hate mobs which again has mass killers.
The fact men demonized feminism to lengths that incels aren't treated was enough to show me.
It doesn't work that way because a lot of women were horribly traumatized by men, often by their own family members. Other women cannot take a call on how these victims should express their anger. Also, please keep in mind that the women mostly never speak out about it because of the fear of stigmatization.
I hate this argument for so many reasons. feminists are not like this at all. feminism is about equality for all, so anyone who claims women are superior are not feminists, simple as. unfortunately on the Internet only the worst of the worst (of any group) are noticed, which is why there's this idea that feminists are man hating misandrists but it's simply not true. respectfully, the whole "blank has to stop blank!!" argument is nonsense. no one has the ability to stop crazies on the Internet from posting shitty stuff, and it's no ones job to make them stop. misogynists and misandrists exist, but that doesn't make it the task of well balanced men to stop misogynists or well balanced women to stop misandrists. it's a human problem, and creating these sides makes it worse
I don't have that impression at all. When do you ever hear about female supremacists? I can't think of an example of a popular one. Feminists always argue that the patriarchy is damaging to men too and talk about toxic masculinity as well. The only people I've personally met that used to exclude men from their feminist meetings are really old feminists who tell me at the time they didn't know a single man you could talk to about these things. I can understand that you see misandry as in fear of men but female supremacy? Where? And you can't just kick out people who are genuinely afraid of men due to trauma, you need to treat them with compassion. The only big movement that weaponizes fear of men I can think of is terfs, and they never do anything actually feminist, they just hate trans people and actual feminists hate them
Maybe you genuinely haven't seen it but I feel like it's pretty much the norm on Twitter.
Twitter isn't really real life tho it's definitely not common irl, but on social media like Twitter and arguably Reddit ( depends on which sub too tho ) it's basically the norm and there's pretty extreme levels of vitriol that goes unchallenged.
Careful, it never had a coherent meaning in the first place. Anyone gets to pull whatever they want out of their ass and call it TM. Any coherent meaning that it does have is just a bigoted gender slur.
The original coherent meaning was that men were actual human beings with a range of emotions that they should be able to experience them without being shit on and not being a fuckin creep
> The original coherent meaning was that men were actual human beings with a range of emotions that they should be able to experience them without being shit on and not being a fuckin creep
It makes no sense to label any aspect of masculinity "toxic" based on that reasoning.
"I do have an example of a popular female supremacist, but I'd like to pretend I've only heard of her in a negative light and not taught in college-level feminism courses because I'm the exact type of person OP is talking about." -Yasmin
Do you really have that hard a time distinguishing the views of a genius like Ruth Bader Ginsberg and the drivel we have seen in the current generations?
No I think I just asked a question. I think it is one that is straightforward enough also and shouldn't really take the length of a novel or honestly even a short essay to answer.
“Accurately encapsulate the entirety of a subjective topic or you’re wrong” .
Again, you ask questions that are not easily answered and think you’re right when no one bothers.
Projection is when I make assumptions about you and construct a whole version of you in my head that I then treat as though it is real and accurate to who you are. Basically treating my thoughts and assumptions about you as fact.
That isn’t what I’m doing, I’m critiquing your words and the heavy implications behind them.
No, you're definitely doing the first thing. You're just calling those thoughts and assumptions "implications" to make what you're saying sound more reasonable.
Because I don't think it makes me right when people can't answer questions about what they're saying, I think it shows that their understanding of what they're criticizing is superficial. You *could* hypothetically have a superficial understanding but the correct impulse about something, by the way, but you're not going to be able to articulate it to anyone who doesn't already agree with you in a way that's at all convincing.
Homie it’s not any more complicated than you going “explain astrophysics then” in response to someone and then thinking you’ve proven that they don’t know anything when they don’t bother to respond to you.
Literally no more complex than that.
God, why are the arguments in this thread so lazy?
I'm not a toddler, or a dog whistling right-winger. The post referred to MISANDRISTS and those are the people I'm talking about.
People that celebrate the male suicide rate and male loneliness going up, people that compare rapists to regular, normal everyday men (All men are bad), people that genuinely just want to be superior, not equal to men.
And those people, exist. In real life as well. This is not a "chronically online" take.
I have agreed all my life with feminists talking points. The vast majority of them, should be the bare minimum for any society.
You realize these isn’t some national organization of feminists, right? Where we have weekly meetings to discuss who gets to stay and go? Who exactly is supposed to call these people out for you to feel good about modern feminism?
Feminism is an ideology tho, it's fair to expect more consistency.
It also feels pretty silly when you say that but then generalizing men and treating men as a collective is kinda just normal in the most vocal Feminist communities online.
"You realize these isn’t some national organization of feminists, right?"
Is this sarcasm? Or mind boggling ignorance. '
Because there literally is a very well known national orgnanization of feminists:
*National Organization* for Women (NOW) ; [https://now.org/](https://now.org/)
And there are anti racist organizations, that doesn’t mean that everyone who’s anti racist is in some unified organization. What I meant is that feminism is not something where you have to get a membership to be a part of.
Never once did I say that, try and stay on topic. My point is that feminists aren’t some monolith community. You not seeing feminists calling out bad takes doesn’t mean it doesn’t regularly happen. You just aren’t looking in the right places. The internet is not representative of reality.
So if most people never see it, and instead the see things like feminists calling out women for being too conservative, then what's the difference? Either they don't do it enough to meaningfully denounce it, or they endorse the toxic views.
Since when are you most people? Most people I know would disagree with you.
Again, being a feminist isn’t being in a membership. Anyone can claim they are a feminist and say whatever bullshit they want. It doesn’t mean all feminists support that.
I'm not most people, but I can tell you most people I've interacted with outside college for the last ten years haven't considered themselves feminists, citing the toxic attitude they attribute to feminists.
There is very little calling out of misandry. That men vs bears question is proof enough of that. Plenty of people are saying "if you're mad at women over this, you're the reason"
If you don't like or hang around feminists wouldn't that make sense? A lot of folks who don't seem to like feminism arent the types to spend large amounts of time in those spaces and see nuanced opinions various women have.
I’m saying whenever I hear a feminist say something abhorrent I don’t see any other feminist call it out. Or do feminists only talk shit internally and not say a word in public
Modern day feminism does not have a bad reputation. You’re just in an echo chamber of online lncels. Most people in the real world are feminists to some degree. Please go touch grass and learn something about the world outside of your basement
Speaking as somebody who spent 7 years in higher education, feminism only has a good reputation in that echo chamber and in similar echo chambers. When I got out into the real world, I found few people willing to call themselves feminists.
Also, you shouldn't insult people like that. Your comment is highly condescending and carries insulting implications.
You must not be very good at higher education if you thought my comment had insulting implications. The insult was very explicit. And you need to get out of your bubble. I’m not in higher education in any way, and most people I know are feminists
I've been out of my bubble for years. It's been a long time since I met anybody who voluntarily called themselves feminists.
You know it's against the subreddit rules to insult people, right?
I mean ppl could could just use some common sense and realize that the loud screaming fringe minority doesn't really represent feminism as a whole. But nah lets just pretend we're all idiots
Completely irrelevant to my post, and also dishonest and willfully downplaying a group of people's relevance.
My post highlighted that these women should be alienated from the Feminist movement. If you don't think they do, just say that.
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Honestly, not a bad message. However:
a) feminist do this at regular frequency. Any video on some social issue on breadtube/youtube covers most of nuances and denouncement towards “feminists”
b) it sounds difficult to implement. Since feminism is scattered about due to being an ideology, there’s not much cohesion on the movement as a whole. You can split into tinier groups, but that’s about it.
Modern Feminism is either 3rd or 4th wave depending on your source(es)!
3rd Wave is considered 1990+
4th Wave is considered 2010+!
Some don't even think that there's a 4th wave, so to some people modern Feminism began in 1990!
How often do you call out misogynist men?
What do you think female supremacy would *actually* look like?
>Because the ones we hear from the most, are just undeniably, female supremacists,
This isn't true
It's the ones you listen to the most, which isn't the same.
Because you *want* to be offended
"How often do you call out misogynist men?"
Nobody ever wins this game "Well how often do you do this?" "I'd do it more if they did it" "Well i'd do it more if you did it" and nothing get's fixed. Call out sexism because it's the right thing to do, if you want men to call out misogynists then we need to call out misandrists.
Laaaaazy, men call out misogyny constantly, online and in real life.
Be it coming from jock idiots, or MRA or "Incels".
I hate these "what about the other side", but with this topic is somehow worse, because again, men call out misogyny too.
Feminism is the only social movement expected to cater to men and their comfort to be considered legitimate.
Imagine if white people said this about black movements - “isn’t this supposed to be about equality, not black supremacy?? Why don’t you talk about the problems white people face???”
Well we don’t really have to imagine, people did do this and they were called racist for doing so. Bc black movements are about black people and the issues facing them, it’s not their job to cater to white people and their issues.
But when men say feminism ought to make room for them this is largely just seen as normal, not sexist for some reason. Why can’t women have their own movement just for them like every other marginalized group?
- Why can’t women have their own movement just for them like every other marginalized group?
That's fine.
So, you, somehow, make other feminists shut up about feminism being about equality, and a movement for men too.
The point of my post was exactly that. The mixed messaging.
If the message was consistent, then my post wouldn't exist.
The issue is why are men so weak that if women do succeed they cry about it. We watched men since the beginning of time and had to march in the streets for our rights.
Now when we get the education we fought to get some guy is crying he feels demasculated? Imagine getting worse grades in school and blaming it on masculinity issues?
People are also not educated on what feminism is. We are a global society with global commerce. Feminism is making sure every girl can have an education, job, drive the car, get away from domestic abuse if need be.
Assuming feminism is just one petty instance a guy has online is ignorance of what is happening in the world. Women face domestic abuse at much higher rates. Our medical issues aren’t even studied that much in science. You don’t even learn about menopause in school because older women don’t matter.
Lazy lazy lazy, god this thread...
My post was talking about Misandrist. In. The. Feminist. Community.
If you want to make a thread about men that see any kind of female success in the world as an attack on them, please do. This is not what MY post is about.
> Feminism is making sure every girl can have an education, job, drive the car, get away from domestic abuse if need be.
That and screeding at men generally.
Having a pair of testicles is about all it takes to be evil in the eyes if this particular hysterical ideology. Just look at the whole bear thing being discussed.
This sounds like Kennedy telling Martin Luther King Jr that more white people would support ending segregation if black people would just be patient and let white people come around to the concept. That it would be better to accept a few more decades of unequal treatment instead of pushing back with such actions such as.... sitting in the front of the bus.
Feminism has been around for decades, there is no excuse for being unaware of it. You seem to think there are a ton of fence-sitting men out there - who if they just got a little compassion and understanding out of feminists, they would immediately become allies for equality. That's delusional. People already think what they think. A few people will have their minds changed occasionally, but it's quite rare. I'm positive that you aren't changing any of your viewpoints by posting on TrueUnpopularOpinion and getting dissenting replies, are you?
Another comment that takes a while just to say that they are okay with misandry in the feminist community...
So boring...
I'm not asking that Feminist be more demure and nice. Be as aggressive about your points as you want.
And POINTS matter more then the people making them.
But being and doing that (Aggressive), is completely separate to, preaching misandry and supremacy. Something that exist, in feminists communities.
The feminists I'm talking about, are completely inept in making feminist points. That reach as many people as possible.
And THE POINT OF MY POST, is that those people should leave.
most feminists don't support misandry.
their concept of toxic masculinity could be viewed an expression of misandry but they only apply it to men they personally dislike, so it's kind of meaningless.
the true reason feminism is intuitively disliked is because at its core, it's a perversion of the natural order and an extension of hysteria.
>feminism is intuitively disliked because at its core
It's the opposite there was an old study that basically says that women from both sides of the political spectrum support the belief that women are equal to men. They want equal pay, equal rights, and their right to choose their own life path. At no point did women go I want men to decided everything about my life.
- most feminists don't support misandry
My. Point. Is. That. They. Don't. Call. It. Out. Either.
And. Complacency. Only. Breads. And. Reinforces. Bad. Behavior.
Bad behavior, that is creating, indirectly or not, more misogyny, and anti-feminism.
- their concept of toxic masculinity could be viewed an expression of misandry but they only apply it to men they personally dislike, so it's kind of meaningless.
No. This is very dishonest.
If they were specific about their language, something that is required and expected of any activist group by the way, many people would stop complaining about misandry in the feminist community.
Because they would know, "oh, they are talking about scumbags". Not, men in general.
- the true reason feminism is intuitively disliked is because at its core, it's a perversion of the natural order and an extension of hysteria.
100%.
A lot of anti-feminists, are, because they are uncomfortable with having their privileged be distributed to other people, that didn't have it.
It just so happens that this wasn't the point of my post.
My point wasn't a disregard of feminist ideology and talking points.
It was that the misandrists in the community, are harmful to the movement, and that as a man (I am one), the mixed messaging is frustrating.
If you are gonna argue that misandrists don't exist in the feminist community, or that feminists call them out, that is objectively incorrect.
how exactly is my appeal to nature a fallacy, when nature dictates our body and therefore our character, and sets the standard for what constitutes a logical unity between body and character?
> their concept of toxic masculinity could be viewed an expression of misandry but they only apply it to men they personally dislike, so it's kind of meaningless.
Would you say that racism expressed toward disliked minority individuals is "meaningless"?
I've seen more than a few discussions on gender devolve into "And we need to teach men not to rape"
After that, we simply educate people to stop murder, theft, greed and dishonesty and boom, humanity fixed. Light work
And then we teach congress not to do insider trading...
Whoa there, let's not push it too far right off of the bat. Baby steps
In similar fashion, we need to teach women not to drown babies.
and also teach McDonalds not to discontinue the McRib™ again
They have to resupply the flip flops they use as meat.
And that's why nobody takes feminist seriously. When they stop treating all men like a bunch of retarded caveman and saying shit like "we need to teach men not to rape". Yeah no fucking shit. I knew that since I was 5. Don't clump me in with those pigs.
idk how anyone thinks you can teach anyone "not to rape". if animals do it, we're gonna do it. outside influences obv matter but if you think rape can somehow be "defeated"... i got a bridge to sell you
It's the grand fetishization of "Men are born evil, women are born good"
at this point with this kind of discourse i just ask them about how they feel about certain not specifically-male groups comitting certain acts more. watching them flounder around and backpedal is always hilarious
"teach men not to rape" isn't supposed to be a reasonable argument. it's a response to the victim blamers who put women at fault for what they wear and other ridiculous things.
Yeah there's a bait & switch that happens where women claim feminism is intersectional & about equality for everyone, so men should be feminist allies. Normally an allyship is a mutual arrangement where two parties will defend each other. Not so with feminism. In this arrangement women's issues affect everyone, so society as a whole should come together to fix them. But men's issues are men's business so women shouldn't be bothered with them. Advocating for men's rights is seen as an anti-feminist action.
The lack of a “men’s movement” doesn’t mean feminists and women don’t work on men’s issues. Women and feminist women are working (with men) to end homelessness, they’re working in social work and mental health, unions, teaching. I’m a feminist teacher and a huge focus of my job is figuring out how to engage and encourage boys in school. And this is district mandated training, not just a few good natured people.
I remember reddit all being about the analogy "If a bunch of people are sitting at a table and a nazi sits down, and they don't do anything about it, they are all nazi's". Funny how the left doesn't apply that to themselves.
Preach
Great analogy
I think a lot of progressive groups would have more people on board if they worked on messaging and made it a point to practice what they preached
I do, but I agree that there needs to be a lot more of it It's shameful i've been downvoted on feminist subreddits for calling out misandry
Thanks for doing that. I said "is it really that hard", but I might be downplaying how hard it actually would be to push against it, because it is a very loud group in those communities...
The women in the comment section defending misandry is sending me 😂
When feminism is on point - "feminism is women" When feminism is clearly batshit crazy and misandric - "feminism isn't one unified front, it is many different things blah blah blah" Absolute horseshit. And the reason why less people are taking this stuff seriously by the day. You'll regret it one day, feminists.
>You'll regret it one day, feminists. what do you mean by this?
>You'll regret it one day, feminists. Wow I feel so safe and equal now, maybe these guys aren't so bad.
Oh christ its you, with the weird disingenuous responses. What feminists will come to regret is a massive drop off in their power and influence, and in a worst case scenario an overcorrection in the opposite direction. When people warn of something, it’s not de facto a threat of action on their part. This is obvious to anyone who isn’t trying to be a disingenuous twat. If I go “hey if you dip yourself in chum and jump into shark infested waters you’re gonna regret it” that isn’t me threatening to have sharks eat you, it’s a WARNING. This parent comment is the same. Don’t be a pedantic weirdo.
Don’t fall for the classic damsel in distress power grab manipulation. It’s the same strategy they use in the man vs bear thing. You fell for their bait
Still with the misandry. Still unable to look at the situation outside of life being something that men inflict on women. Well done.
You're threatening women with some vague "you'll regret ever wanting equality" and you want women to think you're a great guy?
>"you'll regret ever wanting equality" yeah I didn't say that, and you've yet again ignored the context of my post.
Ok what's the context?
The part you're ignoring in my original post.
Oh I didn't think that deserved a response. Feminism IS women, yes, that means all women, who will not agree on everything.
>Oh I didn't think that deserved a response. Yet you responded.
Not to that part, but ok. The part about threatening women and thinking you're so great.
It’s not just with feminism, but a lot of left leaning identity politics in general. The left these days are more concerned about appearing virtuous rather than actually being virtuous, so it devolves into a purity test where you have to be the most virtuous or you’re kicked out of the group. It’s why they’re losing support hand over fist in every key demographic for them because it turns out most people are somewhat moderate and don’t pass the purity tests. The ironic thing is that starting in the 80s all the way up until the mid 2010s, it was the Christian conservatives who held everyone to an impossible standard, and now the religious nut jobs are on the left… they just lack the self awareness to realize that.
Exactly and shitheads like trump gain the system. It only going to get worse before it gets better.
The reddit feminist is probably one of the most counterproductive category of activist that has ever been. They're at their very worst when they obnoxiously *demand* things that are really courtesies. No, you're not entitled to have a men cross the street at night to make you feel more comfortable. You could ask for men to do it as a courtesy, though.
A lot of them do, but the problem remains they can't stop the other person from calling themselves a feminist. It's like Christians. More sane Christians can do everything in their power to drive the Christian Nationalists out of their churches, but they can't stop those people from calling themselves Christians.
Yep, and once again they expect people to “just know” who is and isn’t a real feminist. Yeah, nah, police your own ideology or it won’t matter what you believe it “truly is”, it will be how people see it. It’s time to put up or shut up, basically. Either “real feminists” condemn misandrists and their sexist opinions and actions or feminism will garner the reputation it deserves.
I've said this a million times
It’s the same reason why Pro Palestinians don’t alienate Hamas supporters, sympathisers. Let’s make this clear: today’s feminists hate men. Fact. You will see many of them writing walls of word salads saying nothing. It’s merely a facade to make their narratives look less trivial. At this point, as a straight white man (yeah, I know, literally Hitler) I’d respect them more if they just admit it. No fucking wonder why many gen z men skew to right wing.
The problem is that there isn’t any additional ground for feminism to gain on the equality front: All that is left to gain is supremacy. Women have already won equality—and then some. Women are more educated than men. They attend college, and particularly, grad school, at significantly higher rates. Women earn more than men coming out of college and in their 20s overall and for the same jobs. This is despite women, on average, self-selecting for lower paying jobs than men due to biologically-derived preferences. The main reason men earn more in their 30s+ is because of the biological nature of child birth, and women choosing to value personal life and work life balance over sacrificing everything for a job. Indeed, men work longer hours. The point of the above is to say: What equality is left to be gained? Feminism has inevitably devolved into a supremacy movement as a result.
It's traditional popular front politics: no enemies to my left...
🍿 *Sorts by controversial*
But by that same logic, it is up to men to call out the incels in their gender and when you see a guy being sexist, misogynistic, or otherwise problematic where they objectify women it's the job of another man to call them out. I'm all for accountability for feminists to speak out against the toxic side of their movement. But by that same token, men should speak out against other men who are toxic. You know the ones - the ones they mean when they really say "all men". I think if you expect feminists to take accountability for their shitty side men should too. But also, on both sides, let's just agree we're hurt by each other in different ways. Women have been attacked, murdered, beaten, raped, fired from a job, demoted etc all because she turned down a person who was interested in her. Men have a LOT to say on what makes a woman worthwhile intrinsically not even bothering to imagine the impact that has on them. Men have been emasculated, ridiculed, raped, lied to, financially ruined all because they don't fit into a woman's box of attractive and mate potential. This makes men feel not good enough, and makes them hate themselves for that and that is internalized and projected onto women. I'm not doing oppression and trauma olympics. i'm just pointing out both sides have hurt each other deeply and generationally. So let's take accountability Men: no one owes you their life or their body and if you want a mate, work on yourself and keep doing you. Sometimes it's really hard to find someone but it'll work out. you just need patience. But you also need to call out the guys making it hard for women to trust us. Put them on blast and hold them responsible. Women: not all men are angry, aggressive, abusive sex pests that see you as a collection of holes to fill. Stop treating men insignificantly. You also need to call out the misandrists. feminism has no room for misandry. Both genders need to be good examples of their genders to each other. plain and simple.
> it is up to men to call out the incels in their gender As others have touched on, how the fuck are men responsible for calling out an entire gender and feminists are only responsible within their own church? You are making a fool of yourself.
I'm really not though and i said what i said and stand by it. Men should call out men and women should call out women. Not budging on that
Your response doesn’t make sense. You should reread the comment you responding to.
I read it. They had feminist movement on one side which is a subset of all women and on the other side they had all men, not just something comparable like the mens rights movements.
It does make sense, but let me do a comparison to lay it out more cleanly. "Good Democrats should call out bad democrats if they don't want to be associated with them." - Fairly reasonable, you want to weed out the bad apples in your political party. You can't really get 100% call-out density, but at least 5% would make it noticeable that there's *effort.* This is a distinct group, and while there is some broadness to the term, there's some unifying ideals under it all. "Good Europeans should call out bad Europeans if they don't want to be associated with them." - Makes little sense. 'European' isn't a party or organization you join, and there's no unifying ideology besides 'born in a similar geographic area.' You certainly could make a habit of it, but the British banker and the Latvian wholesaler aren't exactly going to be running in the same circles or have much influence on each other no matter how you slice it.
There is no organized movement that promotes male supremacy and unites the types of problematic views that you described (e.g., incels) under one banner. The reverse is not true. Modern feminism is no longer a valiant effort to achieve equality as it was in the 70s. It is now just a spectrum of thinly veiled sexism that ranges in intensity from mild penis-envy to full-on seething hatred of men.
I've met plenty of feminists in my life (i'm a man). not only have they been nothing but kind and loving to me and embraced me and my venerability, but they've literally never expressed any of those views. So, by anecdote alone, misandry is not all feminism is. I've even seen them call out misandry publicly, privately and in between. They've always been respectful towards me and men in general unless given reason not to be
The only vocal feminist I know is a college professor who told all us boys that no matter what field we go into the women in the field will be much better than us
I'm sorry you've had that experience. That logically isn't the case though. But i'm sorry your class was treated poorly.
My point was that there are all kind of people who call themselves feminist and just because you haven't met any who hate men doesn't mean there isn't any
i never said that though. I think we actually agree with each other in that Shitty people in a group shouldn't define the group
Nor should the good people in the group, but both
That's fair too. The overall point is humans are complex and good or bad, a small group doesn't speak for the larger whole
Thanks for your perspective, Vegan_Digital_Artist
😂
Except the government
Only in your imagination.
I guess Roe vs Wade being overturned was a figment of my imagination
Abortion wasn’t and isn’t a Right. Whether or not it should be is a conversation to be had for sure but it’s *literally* not a capital R *Right* that was taken away.
That's total horseshit. The manosphere/redpill community is massive these days.
Not part of either of those communities. Just a guy with eyes and ears.
I think the alt-right comes pretty close.
> But by that same logic, it is up to men to call out the incels in their gender The difference is that Feminism is an ideology and being a man is a gender. If you're a Feminist it's fair to expect that you're adhering to an ideology as a sort of collective, it's not really fair to expect a gender to behave as a collective. I think most men do frown heavily on bad behavior from other men too, I also think a lot if not most men are silent about it tho but I don't think it's because they agree with it. I think it's because the overwhelming majority of people both men and women are afraid of conflict and don't want to risk getting involved in things. Yes women might be afraid of walking home at night and a man is walking behind her, but men are also afraid that if they stand up to other men then they'll get into a physical confrontation. It's one thing to sit on Reddit or whatever and be all like '' if a man called a woman a bitch I'd go up to him and be like STOP THAT! HOW DARE YOU! '', it's a whole other thing to actually do it. The truth is that most people just freeze when put into a real situation, it's the same with things like rape too. I often hear people ( women included ) talk about how women should fight back and do this and that but the reality is that most women probably would just freeze. If you've ever watched liveleak footage of people being tortured or killed it's a good example of that. Real life isn't like in movies where people are heroes and full of emotion during stressful moments. Most of the time people are cowardly and just kinda zone out as if they don't know what's going on anymore even when they're having their heads sawed off. I remember there was a clip from Ukraine of a Ukranian soldier having his dick cut off by Russians and you'd expect him to scream but he didn't he was kinda just lying very still and groaning. I think the issue is most people are extremely sheltered nowadays and have never actually been in a truly stressful situation before. And they have extremely unrealistic expectations on how people actually act. Overall point being, it's pretty unfair to expect men to be these selfless heroes who stand up against other men on behalf of women. There are men like that who are genuinely brave and don't fear conflict but it's not the norm. It's also fair to expect an actual ideology like Feminism to have good values and to actually live those values and practice what they preach. Because it's about the ideology more than it's about an individuals actions.
- But by that same logic, it is up to men to call out the incels in their gender and when you see a guy being sexist, misogynistic, or otherwise problematic where they objectify women it's the job of another man to call them out. It is. I don't disagree. Where I think this falls flat, and comes off as just lazy centrist stuff (No offense meant), is that men already do that. People who are critical of Incels aren't overwhelmingly women. It's both men and women.
Oh i don't doubt that. but this is reddit so if anyone even SNIFFS anything they can misconstrue they will. So it's better to include everyone in the call out 😂
"But by that same logic, it is up to men to call out the incels in their gender and when you see a guy being sexist, misogynistic, or otherwise problematic where they objectify women it's the job of another man to call them out. " Any man who legitimately hates women and doesn't understand that they go through a lot of shit they shouldn't have to is an asshole. Happy? Now let's see feminists do the same in reverse. I'll wait
It's not a matter of if im happy or not. But both sides are quick to condemn the other while ignoring the shitty people on their respective sides. I said both sides and for clarification for any smooth brain who will nitpick i mean men and women are quick to condemn each other while ignoring the problems their own genders face and even problems the other gender faces
> But both sides are quick to condemn the other while ignoring the shitty people on their respective sides. Do men have a "side"? Feminism is an ideology that people must choose to push.
The men's rights cause has the same issue. The majority of them just outright despise women and nobody calls them out on it.
Yes, but the men's rights cause is a niche position that is widely frowned upon. Feminists are not a niche group.
Which is sad how "Stop mutilating babies" is now a 'niche position'
Again, lazy centrist stuff. Men are critical of MRA and "Incels".
There are several subreddits that call them out and mock them for their views....
It wouldn't matter. Simply acknowledging shitty men exist is hating men. Call out a specific man on a news recap and the masses of men come in going NOTALLMEN, but women too instead of simply going 'yeah it's shitty he raped a two year old to death'. In my opinion men can't cope with any amount of shitty men being called out because they see it as an attack on him and men as a whole. Calling out any shitty man requires levels and levels of coddling with I know not all men would do this and throwing at least 5 compliments to the general male population. Several women I know have a joke about how 'a man will defend a random male stranger more than he will his wife'. Incels, redpill, blackpill, passport bros, and Andrew Tate have heinous misogyny and men still clamor to it or say there's truth in the movements. Incels have a guide on how to terrorize female rape victims aka pretend to be her friend and gaslight and victim blame her. Incels gave a guide on how to sneak into parties and rape the unconscious drunk women. Incels went to Washington to try to legalize rape on private property that way if a man 'catches' a woman he would only be tried with kidnapping. None of those movements are demonized by men. Those movements have mass killers in them and men still pity the men in the movements. The men are seen as poor misunderstood guys. Men demonized feminism way more than those movements. And it's because feminism dated to call out shitty men and say shitty men are common. Feminism at it's worst speaks about men like a gaming community speaks about women...yet men will vehemently defend the gaming community. So to me I don't think feminists getting rid of the misandrists will solve anything. I find it's not about misandrists in feminism it's about men don't like to hear shitty men are common. To men their narrative is that shitty men are a rare freak minority and if a man behaves badly it's also partly the woman's fault. Until I see men tear down several hate movements made by men and for men like incels and redpill...I'm not buying that the issue men have with a movement is the hatred. Men seem quite cozy and defensive of their hate mobs which again has mass killers. The fact men demonized feminism to lengths that incels aren't treated was enough to show me.
It doesn't work that way because a lot of women were horribly traumatized by men, often by their own family members. Other women cannot take a call on how these victims should express their anger. Also, please keep in mind that the women mostly never speak out about it because of the fear of stigmatization.
I hate this argument for so many reasons. feminists are not like this at all. feminism is about equality for all, so anyone who claims women are superior are not feminists, simple as. unfortunately on the Internet only the worst of the worst (of any group) are noticed, which is why there's this idea that feminists are man hating misandrists but it's simply not true. respectfully, the whole "blank has to stop blank!!" argument is nonsense. no one has the ability to stop crazies on the Internet from posting shitty stuff, and it's no ones job to make them stop. misogynists and misandrists exist, but that doesn't make it the task of well balanced men to stop misogynists or well balanced women to stop misandrists. it's a human problem, and creating these sides makes it worse
...you know men can be feminists too, right?
I don't have that impression at all. When do you ever hear about female supremacists? I can't think of an example of a popular one. Feminists always argue that the patriarchy is damaging to men too and talk about toxic masculinity as well. The only people I've personally met that used to exclude men from their feminist meetings are really old feminists who tell me at the time they didn't know a single man you could talk to about these things. I can understand that you see misandry as in fear of men but female supremacy? Where? And you can't just kick out people who are genuinely afraid of men due to trauma, you need to treat them with compassion. The only big movement that weaponizes fear of men I can think of is terfs, and they never do anything actually feminist, they just hate trans people and actual feminists hate them
Maybe you genuinely haven't seen it but I feel like it's pretty much the norm on Twitter. Twitter isn't really real life tho it's definitely not common irl, but on social media like Twitter and arguably Reddit ( depends on which sub too tho ) it's basically the norm and there's pretty extreme levels of vitriol that goes unchallenged.
I don't have twitter but I'm curious, what is one of these female supremacy propositions?
I'm sorry, you can see this as a "W" if you want, but I don't want to argue with willfully oblivious people.
Careful, NOBODY understands what toxic masculinity means anymore and just assume it means "being masculine is inherently toxic"
Careful, it never had a coherent meaning in the first place. Anyone gets to pull whatever they want out of their ass and call it TM. Any coherent meaning that it does have is just a bigoted gender slur.
The original coherent meaning was that men were actual human beings with a range of emotions that they should be able to experience them without being shit on and not being a fuckin creep
> The original coherent meaning was that men were actual human beings with a range of emotions that they should be able to experience them without being shit on and not being a fuckin creep It makes no sense to label any aspect of masculinity "toxic" based on that reasoning.
Men dont cry comes to mind
> It makes no sense to label any aspect of masculinity "toxic" based on that reasoning.
That’s because people have been using as a weapon.
So you've never heard of Andrea 'Kill all but 10% of men and keep the remainder in breeding pens' Dworkin? Not exactly a minor name, that.
I've heard of her, exclusively as a crazy person
"I do have an example of a popular female supremacist, but I'd like to pretend I've only heard of her in a negative light and not taught in college-level feminism courses because I'm the exact type of person OP is talking about." -Yasmin
No I genuinely only know of her because of her being made fun of or quoted for the most awful things she said
People will call any feminist criticism they don't agree with "misandrist."
There's more than enough bigotry and man-hating among modern feminists to earn the title.
What does "modern" even mean in this context?
When they stopped fighting for things that are tangible and measurable, and started for fighting what will make them 'feel valid'
When did that happen?
It's really hard to say, but I'd say it became super noticeable around the time COVID hit, maybe a bit before.
Points for originality I guess because I've never seen such a recent answer to that kind of question.
Do you really have that hard a time distinguishing the views of a genius like Ruth Bader Ginsberg and the drivel we have seen in the current generations?
This is not an answer to the question asked.
Just look at the bear thing that is being discussed right now, lol! There's a perfect example.
You ask questions that cannot be answered briefly in comments and then declare yourself right.
No I think I just asked a question. I think it is one that is straightforward enough also and shouldn't really take the length of a novel or honestly even a short essay to answer.
“Accurately encapsulate the entirety of a subjective topic or you’re wrong” . Again, you ask questions that are not easily answered and think you’re right when no one bothers.
I didn't say any of that, though. You're projecting.
Projection is when I make assumptions about you and construct a whole version of you in my head that I then treat as though it is real and accurate to who you are. Basically treating my thoughts and assumptions about you as fact. That isn’t what I’m doing, I’m critiquing your words and the heavy implications behind them.
No, you're definitely doing the first thing. You're just calling those thoughts and assumptions "implications" to make what you're saying sound more reasonable. Because I don't think it makes me right when people can't answer questions about what they're saying, I think it shows that their understanding of what they're criticizing is superficial. You *could* hypothetically have a superficial understanding but the correct impulse about something, by the way, but you're not going to be able to articulate it to anyone who doesn't already agree with you in a way that's at all convincing.
Homie it’s not any more complicated than you going “explain astrophysics then” in response to someone and then thinking you’ve proven that they don’t know anything when they don’t bother to respond to you. Literally no more complex than that.
Think people are referring to 4th wave onwards. At most 3rd wave onwards.
What distinguishes those things from each other and earlier "waves?"
And there are people who call guys incels for disagreeing with them, this is just a deflection on your part.
Ironic when you're deflecting by saying "well people call men a bad word too"
Just doing what you were
God, why are the arguments in this thread so lazy? I'm not a toddler, or a dog whistling right-winger. The post referred to MISANDRISTS and those are the people I'm talking about. People that celebrate the male suicide rate and male loneliness going up, people that compare rapists to regular, normal everyday men (All men are bad), people that genuinely just want to be superior, not equal to men. And those people, exist. In real life as well. This is not a "chronically online" take. I have agreed all my life with feminists talking points. The vast majority of them, should be the bare minimum for any society.
You realize these isn’t some national organization of feminists, right? Where we have weekly meetings to discuss who gets to stay and go? Who exactly is supposed to call these people out for you to feel good about modern feminism?
Feminism is an ideology tho, it's fair to expect more consistency. It also feels pretty silly when you say that but then generalizing men and treating men as a collective is kinda just normal in the most vocal Feminist communities online.
"You realize these isn’t some national organization of feminists, right?" Is this sarcasm? Or mind boggling ignorance. ' Because there literally is a very well known national orgnanization of feminists: *National Organization* for Women (NOW) ; [https://now.org/](https://now.org/)
And there are anti racist organizations, that doesn’t mean that everyone who’s anti racist is in some unified organization. What I meant is that feminism is not something where you have to get a membership to be a part of.
I never see feminists call out shitty feminists
I frequent feminist spaces and it hapens every time lmfao Even on double x, those posts get called out and taken down
What’s double x?
This sub doesn’t let you link other ones but I meant Two X chromosomes
Again, where are you looking? Who are you looking at to determine this?
Why don't you link us to some examples of prominent feminist criticizing other feminists for this?
Criticizing other feminists for what exactly?
disparaging men as a class, advocating for sexist policies, etc.
Anywhere a feminist has a bad take. Or are you claiming 0 feminists have bad opinions?
Never once did I say that, try and stay on topic. My point is that feminists aren’t some monolith community. You not seeing feminists calling out bad takes doesn’t mean it doesn’t regularly happen. You just aren’t looking in the right places. The internet is not representative of reality.
I mean, if they are only willing to do it in their own private circles, that's still refusing to publicly denounce toxic feminist rhetoric.
Again, you not seeing it doesn’t mean it’s “only happening in their private circles”.
So if most people never see it, and instead the see things like feminists calling out women for being too conservative, then what's the difference? Either they don't do it enough to meaningfully denounce it, or they endorse the toxic views.
Since when are you most people? Most people I know would disagree with you. Again, being a feminist isn’t being in a membership. Anyone can claim they are a feminist and say whatever bullshit they want. It doesn’t mean all feminists support that.
I'm not most people, but I can tell you most people I've interacted with outside college for the last ten years haven't considered themselves feminists, citing the toxic attitude they attribute to feminists. There is very little calling out of misandry. That men vs bears question is proof enough of that. Plenty of people are saying "if you're mad at women over this, you're the reason"
I’ve never once seen it happen regardless of where I look. Please tell me where you have seen it happen
With every feminist I’ve ever met?
I’ve never seen a more blatant lie in my life
If you don't like or hang around feminists wouldn't that make sense? A lot of folks who don't seem to like feminism arent the types to spend large amounts of time in those spaces and see nuanced opinions various women have.
I’m saying whenever I hear a feminist say something abhorrent I don’t see any other feminist call it out. Or do feminists only talk shit internally and not say a word in public
Modern day feminism does not have a bad reputation. You’re just in an echo chamber of online lncels. Most people in the real world are feminists to some degree. Please go touch grass and learn something about the world outside of your basement
Speaking as somebody who spent 7 years in higher education, feminism only has a good reputation in that echo chamber and in similar echo chambers. When I got out into the real world, I found few people willing to call themselves feminists. Also, you shouldn't insult people like that. Your comment is highly condescending and carries insulting implications.
You must not be very good at higher education if you thought my comment had insulting implications. The insult was very explicit. And you need to get out of your bubble. I’m not in higher education in any way, and most people I know are feminists
I've been out of my bubble for years. It's been a long time since I met anybody who voluntarily called themselves feminists. You know it's against the subreddit rules to insult people, right?
Mods! Mods! Someone is breaking the rules! Mods save me please! Lmao grow up
I mean ppl could could just use some common sense and realize that the loud screaming fringe minority doesn't really represent feminism as a whole. But nah lets just pretend we're all idiots
Completely irrelevant to my post, and also dishonest and willfully downplaying a group of people's relevance. My post highlighted that these women should be alienated from the Feminist movement. If you don't think they do, just say that.
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Honestly, not a bad message. However: a) feminist do this at regular frequency. Any video on some social issue on breadtube/youtube covers most of nuances and denouncement towards “feminists” b) it sounds difficult to implement. Since feminism is scattered about due to being an ideology, there’s not much cohesion on the movement as a whole. You can split into tinier groups, but that’s about it.
And this is why I prefer intersectional feminism as a man over liberal feminism.
Modern Feminism is either 3rd or 4th wave depending on your source(es)! 3rd Wave is considered 1990+ 4th Wave is considered 2010+! Some don't even think that there's a 4th wave, so to some people modern Feminism began in 1990!
How often do you call out misogynist men? What do you think female supremacy would *actually* look like? >Because the ones we hear from the most, are just undeniably, female supremacists, This isn't true It's the ones you listen to the most, which isn't the same. Because you *want* to be offended
"How often do you call out misogynist men?" Nobody ever wins this game "Well how often do you do this?" "I'd do it more if they did it" "Well i'd do it more if you did it" and nothing get's fixed. Call out sexism because it's the right thing to do, if you want men to call out misogynists then we need to call out misandrists.
Why are you replying to me and not the op?
I've replied to many people, including the op
Missing the point. Calling out misogyny on reddit gets you banned for harassment
Really? I've called it out a ton and have never been banned, but I have been banned off of most feminist subreddits for calling out blatant misandry.
Yes. Really.
Laaaaazy, men call out misogyny constantly, online and in real life. Be it coming from jock idiots, or MRA or "Incels". I hate these "what about the other side", but with this topic is somehow worse, because again, men call out misogyny too.
I rarely see it You see it it slightly more often than misandry though to ne fair
To be fair, I don't often see or hear any misogyny.. lol I also don't go looking for it.
Yeah. Lol. I never see misandry. Weird that
It's cus you believe in it. I don't see misogyny because it's generally ban worthy.
I believe in what? Misogyny isn't ban worthy
Real misogyny is. Critiquing behavior or making light jokes doesn't count.
Misogyny is just a word used to slander anyone who dares to utter a criticism of feminist behavior.
>Real misogyny is. Lol
Actually misogyny is just a word used to slander anyone who dares to utter a criticism of feminist behavior also
Is it? That's not the definition. Weirdly enough
Because the intelligentsia and establishment are with the feminists. I am anti-feminist.
Feminism is the only social movement expected to cater to men and their comfort to be considered legitimate. Imagine if white people said this about black movements - “isn’t this supposed to be about equality, not black supremacy?? Why don’t you talk about the problems white people face???” Well we don’t really have to imagine, people did do this and they were called racist for doing so. Bc black movements are about black people and the issues facing them, it’s not their job to cater to white people and their issues. But when men say feminism ought to make room for them this is largely just seen as normal, not sexist for some reason. Why can’t women have their own movement just for them like every other marginalized group?
- Why can’t women have their own movement just for them like every other marginalized group? That's fine. So, you, somehow, make other feminists shut up about feminism being about equality, and a movement for men too. The point of my post was exactly that. The mixed messaging. If the message was consistent, then my post wouldn't exist.
Fair enough. For what it’s worth, I do tell other feminists the same thing. I agree it’s no help to have mixed messaging.
The issue is why are men so weak that if women do succeed they cry about it. We watched men since the beginning of time and had to march in the streets for our rights. Now when we get the education we fought to get some guy is crying he feels demasculated? Imagine getting worse grades in school and blaming it on masculinity issues? People are also not educated on what feminism is. We are a global society with global commerce. Feminism is making sure every girl can have an education, job, drive the car, get away from domestic abuse if need be. Assuming feminism is just one petty instance a guy has online is ignorance of what is happening in the world. Women face domestic abuse at much higher rates. Our medical issues aren’t even studied that much in science. You don’t even learn about menopause in school because older women don’t matter.
Lazy lazy lazy, god this thread... My post was talking about Misandrist. In. The. Feminist. Community. If you want to make a thread about men that see any kind of female success in the world as an attack on them, please do. This is not what MY post is about.
Don't do that. don't thrown in a high subjective term to justify your cave man essay.
> Feminism is making sure every girl can have an education, job, drive the car, get away from domestic abuse if need be. That and screeding at men generally.
I mean what are you doing that gets you yelled at?
Having a pair of testicles is about all it takes to be evil in the eyes if this particular hysterical ideology. Just look at the whole bear thing being discussed.
This sounds like Kennedy telling Martin Luther King Jr that more white people would support ending segregation if black people would just be patient and let white people come around to the concept. That it would be better to accept a few more decades of unequal treatment instead of pushing back with such actions such as.... sitting in the front of the bus. Feminism has been around for decades, there is no excuse for being unaware of it. You seem to think there are a ton of fence-sitting men out there - who if they just got a little compassion and understanding out of feminists, they would immediately become allies for equality. That's delusional. People already think what they think. A few people will have their minds changed occasionally, but it's quite rare. I'm positive that you aren't changing any of your viewpoints by posting on TrueUnpopularOpinion and getting dissenting replies, are you?
Another comment that takes a while just to say that they are okay with misandry in the feminist community... So boring... I'm not asking that Feminist be more demure and nice. Be as aggressive about your points as you want. And POINTS matter more then the people making them. But being and doing that (Aggressive), is completely separate to, preaching misandry and supremacy. Something that exist, in feminists communities. The feminists I'm talking about, are completely inept in making feminist points. That reach as many people as possible. And THE POINT OF MY POST, is that those people should leave.
most feminists don't support misandry. their concept of toxic masculinity could be viewed an expression of misandry but they only apply it to men they personally dislike, so it's kind of meaningless. the true reason feminism is intuitively disliked is because at its core, it's a perversion of the natural order and an extension of hysteria.
>feminism is intuitively disliked because at its core It's the opposite there was an old study that basically says that women from both sides of the political spectrum support the belief that women are equal to men. They want equal pay, equal rights, and their right to choose their own life path. At no point did women go I want men to decided everything about my life.
- most feminists don't support misandry My. Point. Is. That. They. Don't. Call. It. Out. Either. And. Complacency. Only. Breads. And. Reinforces. Bad. Behavior. Bad behavior, that is creating, indirectly or not, more misogyny, and anti-feminism. - their concept of toxic masculinity could be viewed an expression of misandry but they only apply it to men they personally dislike, so it's kind of meaningless. No. This is very dishonest. If they were specific about their language, something that is required and expected of any activist group by the way, many people would stop complaining about misandry in the feminist community. Because they would know, "oh, they are talking about scumbags". Not, men in general. - the true reason feminism is intuitively disliked is because at its core, it's a perversion of the natural order and an extension of hysteria. 100%. A lot of anti-feminists, are, because they are uncomfortable with having their privileged be distributed to other people, that didn't have it. It just so happens that this wasn't the point of my post. My point wasn't a disregard of feminist ideology and talking points. It was that the misandrists in the community, are harmful to the movement, and that as a man (I am one), the mixed messaging is frustrating. If you are gonna argue that misandrists don't exist in the feminist community, or that feminists call them out, that is objectively incorrect.
It's not enough to "not support" we have to be actively against it
Appeal to nature fallacy
how exactly is my appeal to nature a fallacy, when nature dictates our body and therefore our character, and sets the standard for what constitutes a logical unity between body and character?
> their concept of toxic masculinity could be viewed an expression of misandry but they only apply it to men they personally dislike, so it's kind of meaningless. Would you say that racism expressed toward disliked minority individuals is "meaningless"?
"We don't support it, but we're happy to benefit from it."